[rawfeeding] Re: Hello, I'm new. I need some help please.

Hey Laura,
I'm new here too so I figued I'd answer some of your questions.
I've been reading the archives here and it seems the concensus is that
raw should be started and kibble compeltely stopped. The mixing of the
two doesn't work well as raw moved through the system faster and
kibble can interrupt this and cause problems.

Concerning the loose stool- this doesn't mean the end of the world,
perhaps she ate a little too much liver, or too much fat. You need to
give more detail as to what she ate and not worry so much. monitor
your dog's poop and adjust- don't give up. Also, pumpkin does not help
! I thought so too until I came to this group. stick to the raw,
perhaps feed more bone at the next meal. You have done a good thing in
switching, if your dog is really sick as you say then take her to the
vet! but if she just has one day of diarrhea, calm down, deep breaths
and just follow the advice I mentioned above. It bothers you much more
than your dog.

As for the cost, I myself am on food stamps, yet I am all about the
raw food diet. you are your dog's caretaker and if you have decided
raw is best- stick with it! you will save money on vet bills in the
long run and you and your dogs will be happier and less stressed.
There are groups and co-ops in your area you just have to research and
find them. maybe post specifically about that or search yahoo groups.
look on craigslist and freecycle. especially in CA you should be able
to find some.

seriously I think you are a bit too stressed about this, stay the
path, you have done your research and made a good decision. good luck!

-scherzo in portland

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[rawfeeding] Re: How much fat?

hmm i'm not sure about the diarrhea factor, but i'm sure others more
experienced than i can answer your question more thoroughly. however,
grover does have occasional bouts of the runs, but after her first
pork picnic, her poops were still nice and solid. fat doesn't seem to
bother her as much as excess organ meat does. do your dogs normally
have diarrhea after a fatty meal?

the skin is EXCELLENT for the dogs! leave it by all means!! nothing
grover's eaten so far has given her so much enjoyment or cleaned her
teeth so thoroughly. it probably helped that i gave grover hers
whole, and just stuck it in the fridge every time i thought she ate
about a quarter. man the look on her face every night when i'd take
it away was pretty hilarious and heartbreaking at the same time.

hope that helps a little!

tammy & grover (anxiously waiting for her next piggy picnic)

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[rawfeeding] Re: Aplogies. but I swear this is the last time I'll ask...

"Anndrea" <anndreae@...> wrote:
>
> I found another Fish Oil softgel I want opinions on.
*****
Anndrea, I have deleted eveything that isn't relevant for your
particular decision making needs:
>
> Serving Size: 1 softgel
> Natural Fish Oil concentrate 1000mg
> EPA (Eicosapentaenoic Acid) 180mg
> DHA (Docosahexaenoic Acid) 120mg
>
> Ingredients: Fish Oil Concentrate (Anchovy, Sardine, and Mackerel),
> Gelatin, Glycerin, d-Alpha Tocopherol (Soy).

So.
One softgel capsule is a dose; each dose contains 1000mg oil with
180mg EPA and 120mg DHA. And there's a soy-based antioxidant.

The EPA/DHA numbers are good (anything totaling 300mg works); the soy
may or may not be a problem for your dog, you'll find out soon
enough. For an 80# dog, you would use four gelcaps a day.

> So, by the 1200mg that I was told they need, it would take 4 of
these
> softgels a day?
*****
Precisely.

> Good buy? Good amounts? Any problems?
*****
Seem okay to me, but I can't remember what I paid for my Rexall
gelcaps so I can't compare. Buy them, try them. You'll run out;
when you do you can try another brand if you don't like this one.

> Thanks, and I SWEAR this is my last one to put up here.
*****
Hey, if you gotta ask, you gotta ask. It's all right.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: Maya -- Remember the live bird she ate?

Bearhair <bearhair@...> wrote:
>
> Evie wrote:
>
> >They usually tuck into them and I just let them get on with it.
>
> Can someone from across the pond translate this? What does "tuck into
them"
> mean exactly? <grin>
*****
EXACTLY?
We don't need no stinkin' exactly.

I can't believe you've never heard the term "tuck into." Even me from
way down in the southwest corner of County Cook knows what that means.
My goodness me.

It means chow down. Eat up. Scarf. Dig in.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: venison bones

Karen Saunders <danes_4me@...> wrote:
>> I was told that venison bones will splinter when fed raw. Is this
true? I have an opportunity to get some very meaty venison bones at a
really good price but I don't want to feed them if they will splinter.
*****
I think it depends on the age of the deer, the type of bone and how
fresh the bones are. I prefer not to feed legs to my retrievers, but I
would imagine that young legs are easier than old legs. I feed whole
necks when I can get them and they've never splintered or even come
close. Similarly, the spine and ribs do not seem to be "splinter"
bones. The ribs may not be a meaty as I would prefer but that's about
my own concern.

I am skeptical about "very meaty venison bones". My guess is they're
not very meaty at all but rather are mostly bone and of questionable
age. Twere me doing the buying, I'd want to know just how much meat is
on what sort of bones. I suggest you consider meaty bony parts than
individual bones.
Chris

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[rawfeeding] Re: Green Tripe Info

"Jacqueline" <beaulincolnsmine@...> wrote:
>
> I saw some tripe in a Super Walmart that I had never seen in a
grocery
> store before. It was pink and didn't have the substance of the white
> tripe you usually see. Does anyone know if this is the type of tripe
we
> should be feeding our dogs?
*****
Nope. Fool's gold that is. The green tripe we refer to is raw and
unprocessed (or minimally processed) and cannot be sold with "human
grade" food.

You can feed the stuff you saw but it's been bleached and is not worth
much in the way of nutrition. I myself would not feed it.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Hello, I'm new. I need some help please.

Hello, my name is Laura. I live in Corona, CA with my husband
and "zoo". For the purposes of this group - I have 4 dogs, 130# Great
Dane, 74# GSD mix, 72# GSD and a 12# DoxiPoo mix.

I did read in the list rules that discussion on kibble is forbidden.
Please excuse me but I must mention it here because I am in the
process of switching - maybe. Life circumstance may prohibit me from
doing so at this time. I do need advice badly though. I hope you can
help me.

I've been feeding my dogs Raw for about a week – raw in AM and kibble
in PM. I've been researching and reading up on the diet and I've
heard A LOT of great things. In the past few days I've been beefing
up on the raw, backing off on the kibble almost completely.
I'm shocked at the cost. I spent about $25 between Bulk supply stores
(Costco, Sam's Club) and ethnic markets (because their meat is
cheaper vs. regular markets) that only covered us for about 2 – 3
days. We have 4 dogs and that is an expense we just cannot afford –
at least not right now. Unless someone has any suggestions on how you
do it cheaper? REALLY cheap. I've seen people write that they can
feed their dog/s (I cannot remember if it was multiple or just one
dog) for $16/week. I laughed out loud when I read that. I'm open to
suggestions on this one.
Second and bigger issue is one of my dogs is not taking the switch
well at all. It seemed everyone was doing very well until yesterday
my one dog had loose stool. Today her stool was completely liquid. I
felt so bad for her. I gave her some yogurt, probiotic and some
pumpkin. I heard the probiotic and the yogurt helps with the
digestive track and the pumpkin helps bulk up the stool. WELL, my
husband got quite a little gift when he came home this evening. Vomit
and liquid stool in 5 places in the house – by a house trained dog by
the way. She must have been feeling pretty awful to not make it
outside.
I'm feeling pretty defeated right about now. The cost is a huge
deterrent and my husband is giving me a hard time about that
constantly. Now, I've made my dog really sick. I feel horrible.
If anyone has any words of wisdom – I welcome them. Encouragement,
advice… a hug?

I am embarking on a career change and will be starting a 2 year
program that will force me to quit my current job at some point. So,
this whole subjuct may be moot, at least for two years. After I'm
finished with my training and sit for my board exams I expect a
sizable monthly income increase - at that point I won't be
complaining about cost. In the mean time I wonder if mix raw/kibble
is better than nothing?

Thanks for your time

Laura
Corona, CA

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[rawfeeding] Re: Elbow Dysplasia

"rbmc1231937" <rbmc1231937@...> wrote:
>
> My Reily Lab has bin diagnosed with Elbow Dysplasia, he is only 16
> month old .He has bin limping since 5 month old.
*****
My big Lab started limping at five months and my vet diagnosed it as
pano. When he was still limping at eight months the diagnosis was
changed to elbow dysplasia, both elbows. He's almost nine years old
now, been eating raw food for most of his life, still limps on his
left. I am sorry that your Reily has ED. A good raw diet with maybe
some supps won't cure him but it can help.

My
> question to day is, what meat is the best for his joins .
*****
Meat is not the big issue, it's the bones. Every time you give him
meaty bones that include joints, you are giving him cartilage and
that's the source of natural glucosamine. Beef, pork, lamb, chicken,
turkey, rabbit--it doesn't matter--every single joint has cartilage.
Whenever you can when you are feeding meaty raw bones, feed jointed
bones.

Other sources are chicken and turkey feet and necks. You should also
consider fish body oil or salmon oil for the anti-inflammatory
properties; supplemental glucosamine sulfate plus MSM might also be
helpful.

Hope this helps.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: Salmon Heads

"lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
> >I understood that raw salmon could kill a dog. does the freezing
> kill the parasite?
> take care,
> Lynda
*****
If you were to look back about six posts in this thread, you would
find my message addressing salmon poisoning. I am not talking about
messages sent weeks ago, I am referring to messages posted
yesterday.

"Raw salmon" is a broad subject. Some raw salmon may be fatal to
dogs/wolves/coyotes if the disease is not promptly treated, some raw
salmon is perfectly fine to feed raw. Only wild PNW salmon is at
risk; freezing it will kill the parasite. Alternately, you don't
have to feed PNW salmon--you don't have to feed ANY salmon.

My previous post:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group./rawfeeding/message/132549

Chris O

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[rawfeeding] How much fat?

How much fat is too much? I have some lovely big
picnic pork (shoulders?) that I planned to cut in half
for the dogs. The pieces would be about 4 lbs. each.
My concern is what appears to be quite a large amount
of thick fat around the pork and a "caul" of what must
be pig skin..boy, is it tough..around the meat.
Should I trim off the thickest fat? If I feed this
large hunk of pork as is, will it be too much fat at
one time? The dogs just got over diarrhea and I don't
want it to start up again. Thanks for advice!

Dianne M.

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[rawfeeding] Re: I struck Gold in the Rabbit department!

"tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>> QUESTION:
> He did say he should remove the bladder sac as it's full of pee and
> also remove the intestine for the same reason? Not full of pee of
> course, but you all know what I mean..
> Is that a good ideal. Anything else that needs to be removed or would
> you even remove them?
*****
I leave the intestines alone, if the dog wants 'em, the dog can
eat 'em, and if not, not. So far, intestines have been eaten except
once.

Removing the bladder sack makes the rest of the dressing easier on the
human, but it doesn't matter to the dog. If YOU will be eating the
rabbit, I agree with him. We are much more delicate creatures than are
our dogs.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] ADMIN/Re: Skin Problems: Bacterial Infections

Please take discussions about skin problems and bacterial infections to
RawChat or DogHealth if they do not specifically address diet as a
primary issue.
Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

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[rawfeeding] ADMIN/Re: goggling and growling if withdrawing food

This is a training issue and not appropriate for the rawfeeding list.
No more postings to this topic, please. It's closed.
Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

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[rawfeeding] ADMIN/Re: Questions about feeding a Bobcat kitten

This thread is now over. Further postings to this topic will be
referred to cyberspace for immediate consideration..
Chris O
Moderation Team

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[rawfeeding] Re: Aplogies. but I swear this is the last time I'll ask...

> Anndrea,
> I wouldn't use this because of the soy. Denise

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but what is wrong with soy?

And would the small amount that would be in these softgels really
matter? It is the last thing in the ingredients meaning there isn't
even as much soy as there is gelatin coating stuff.

Not being cranky, just wondering :-)

Oh, and it would be better than nothing, right?

I will be feeding fish once I get the money in and get the hang of
things, so I probably won't be using the softgels more than about a month.

thanks,
anndrea

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[rawfeeding] Re: Question about Organs-Skin

"cmhausrath" <cmhausrath@...> wrote:
> > Nothing in the prey animal average mentions raw tripe, but we
know
> that it's
> > an important, specialized part that should be fed if at all
> possible. It's
> > not something you can go to the neighborhood grocery and pick up,
> but it is
> > available through several sources and I think we all recommend
> feeding it.
>
>
> I don't, not in the sense that I "recommend" feeding meat and meaty
> bones and organs. Tripe is a part of the whole, and as such, it's
> worthy of feeding. It's NOT worthy of breaking the bank for. It's
> not worthy of losing sleep over. If it's available, by all means,
> feed it. If not, well, so what?
>
> I didn't do an extensive search of the archives, but I've belonged
to
> this list for nearly 4 years, and I can't particularly recall tripe
> being "recommended" as something to be fed "if at all possible."
*****
I quite agree with Sandy. So far as I know, and I've been on this
list through several moves since the turn of the century, green tripe
has never been identified as an essential menu item. It has always
been recommended as a useful body part, and although some people
really do rely heavily on it, it is not a perfect or magic food and
ought not be accorded any special privileges. As Sandy wrote, if you
got it, good. If you don't, no big deal.

> There is no need to be as rigid in the exact makeup of a raw diet
as
> you seem to be suggesting. I appreciate that there was a
> misunderstanding about the makeup of the categories of meat and
> organs, but stating baldly that swapping parts is inappropriate is
> simply an overreaction, and one that has vast potential to confuse.
>
> Feed meat. Feed meaty bones. Feed some squidgy ick organs. Feed
> some more meat. No need to make it more complicated than it is.
*****
To which I can only add "amen" and perhaps "boy howdy."

The best thing we can do for our dogs is feed whole prey. The worst
thing we can do for our dogs is assume a rigid disregard for anything
that isn't whole prey.

The worst thing we can do to the whole "emerging science" of raw
feeding is rigid ourselves into irrelevancy.
Chris O

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Re: [rawfeeding] Source Info Needed - Freecycle

Hi Kendra,

I know there is a lot of confusion out there, but just think about it. What
would a wolf or wild dog (or your dog) eat if left on his on????? Veggies,
fruits and supplements? Or meat, bones and organs? What does the normal
natural food of a carnivore consist of?

Once you answer that, you will know without a doubt what to feed your pups.
It's not a mystery!! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Kendra Borland" <kbbooks@ptd.net>
>
>
> I have another question; I've been feeding mostly meat this last week.
Not
> much in meaty bones, because I didn't realize what that really meant until
> these last few days. I'm still not clear on how much I should be giving
> them. My 15 week old puppy has an insaitiable appetite. I'm seeing
really
> light and wet poops from him. Does this mean he's diet is too rich? Not
> enough bones and organs? I'm also still giving him kibble, but that's
> mostly because I'm trying to gradually make this change. I have a lot of
> kibble to use up, and I'm still not real clear as to what "raw diet" means
> to me; weather it means variety of meats with added veggies and
supplements
> (trying to quell arthritis in old dog) or if it means "whole prey" diet,
> which seems very radical to me.
>
>
>
> I came to this list via Jubilee Aires and I know Joyce feeds a variety of
> raw meat and veggies/fruits with supplements to her pack and they do quite
> well. I am also raising an ADT, and, though I imagine it doesn't much
> matter what breed of dog you have, I'm leaning that way until I get to
read
> some of the books I've ordered on this whole subject, and learn
differently.
> Just from what I've read here, it seems that the people on this list lean
> towards the whole prey end of things. Is there anyone here who is feeding
a
> mix of whole foods?

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: I'm getting scared!!

Ahhhh....they are BARF lists...what would you think they promote? Certainly
not prey model!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Bearhair" <bearhair@spamcop.net>

Don't know how restrictive these are to BARF vs. prey model:
>http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/MastiffBarfers/

>http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/BullandMastiff_BARF/

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[rawfeeding] Re: I'm getting scared!!

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tracey Dellario"
<tracey.dellario@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you all so much for your thoughts and good advice. I took him
> into a vet near my house just to be tested and he does not have
> parvo.

B''H. Thank G-d! Petey had Parvo as a pup, and it was horrible.

> don't worry, I just paid for the tests and
> ran out of there :) ).

Good for you

I am so glad to hear Ranger is doing better.

-Nicole
Katie, Petey and the cats

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RE: [rawfeeding] Source Info Needed - Freecycle

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. Please trim your messages.***

Ok, so you know I'm a newbie here. Wow, this list has been busy the last
day or two! And I'm learning a lot!

So susan said, ...I just put: Wanted..freezer burnt meat.. So does this mean
that freezer-burnt meat is ok for my dogs? I had this beef tenderloin that
I was afraid was a bit too freezer burnt for us and cut it up for my dogs.

I have another question; I've been feeding mostly meat this last week. Not
much in meaty bones, because I didn't realize what that really meant until
these last few days. I'm still not clear on how much I should be giving
them. My 15 week old puppy has an insaitiable appetite. I'm seeing really
light and wet poops from him. Does this mean he's diet is too rich? Not
enough bones and organs? I'm also still giving him kibble, but that's
mostly because I'm trying to gradually make this change. I have a lot of
kibble to use up, and I'm still not real clear as to what "raw diet" means
to me; weather it means variety of meats with added veggies and supplements
(trying to quell arthritis in old dog) or if it means "whole prey" diet,
which seems very radical to me.

I came to this list via Jubilee Aires and I know Joyce feeds a variety of
raw meat and veggies/fruits with supplements to her pack and they do quite
well. I am also raising an ADT, and, though I imagine it doesn't much
matter what breed of dog you have, I'm leaning that way until I get to read
some of the books I've ordered on this whole subject, and learn differently.
Just from what I've read here, it seems that the people on this list lean
towards the whole prey end of things. Is there anyone here who is feeding a
mix of whole foods?

Ok, too many questions.

Thanks for your help,

Kendra, mom to Sasha 12 and 'Tana 15 weeks.

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[rawfeeding] Re: I'm getting scared!!

Casey wrote:

>> I would really hope that you are following more of Tammy Kinkade's
>> advice on starting Ranger and using the other emails I sent you to
>> figure out ratios and calories."

>**This confuses me a bit...Tammy Kinkade was more of a prey model
>feeder last I spoke with her. Wonder what that's about?

This is her "Changing to a Raw Diet FAQ," which seems pretty pro-prey model:
>http://www.greenpeople.org/webpage.cfm?memid=3673&pmtlevel=0&linkpage=http://www%2Ek9snaturally%2Ecom

Lora
Evanston, IL

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[rawfeeding] Re: I'm getting scared!!

Tracey wrote:

>Does anybody know of any
>articles or web sites, or even any well known English Mastiff
>breeders that feed this diet that I could send to her?

Don't know how restrictive these are to BARF vs. prey model:
>http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/MastiffBarfers/

>http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/BullandMastiff_BARF/

Lora
Evanston, IL

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[rawfeeding] Re: The First Hour

"autobiographyofsnow" <autobiographyofsnow@...> wrote:
>I gave her a chicken leg quarter after reading back into the
archives
> since that seemed like a good/cheap start and she did fine, but is
it too bony?
*****
As the only food over the long haul, yes. As a beginning food, it's
fine.

> 1. What exactly counts for meatymeats that aren't super expensive?
*****
EXACTLY!?
You want EXACTLY? There is no exactly in a good raw diet. Words
more appropriate to a species appropriate menu include some, less,
more, a little, too much, too few, sorta, kinda, maybe, tad, handful,
a lot, all, none, oops, and oh well.

Fortunately though, I can state with certainty that ANY meatymeat
(one that contains no bone) is EXACTLY what you can feed your dog if
the choice agrees with your pocketbook and with your dog's digestion.

What would not work would be cooked or otherwise processed meats.

> 2. What other chicken cuts can I give her so we can stick to one
protein for the next two
> weeks? (And is 2 wks usuually enough?)
*****
Buy a few whole chickens, hack them into inelegant but useful parts,
feed them. Include the bits stuffed into the cavity, but include
them gently. You do not have to feed chicken ala chicken for two
weeks if all is going well with you and dog. If you want to go the
full two weeks though, you certain may.

> 3. I have to board her next weekend and I'm not sure what to bring
for food. Several
> ziplocks of...what is generally safest/best?
*****
I am not sure I would be inclined to provide ANY new food when
sending a dog off for boarding unless I was darned sure the kennel
was competent in raw feeding and was fully aware of the potential for
loose stools and other digestive upheaval caused by the new food. I
would also want to know for SURE that the staff was experienced in
coping with loose stools. I do not trust boarding kennels (pretty
obvious, hey).

Might you find a raw-wise petsitter who could manage potential issues
with confidence?

> 4. I'll check out sale items
> but what might be good to ask the butcher? Buying in bulk?
*****
Butchers rarely understand good raw food, they think bare naked bones
are hot stuff, that bone dust (a fatty mess of ground meats and bone)
is perfect food and that pork cannot be fed to dogs ever, no way, no
how. Unless you know more about raw than the butcher does, and you
KNOW you know more than the butcher does, and you KNOW you can hold
your ground in the face of indifference or outrage, I suggest you not
go wandering in those particular woods right now.

If you must go unschooled into a butcher shop, I recommend you order
whole chickens, beef heart, whole picnics, whole pork neck bones and
maybe some whole tom (male) turkey necks, maybe some ground beef.
Don't let the butcher slice anything. No sawing, no cutting.

Buy by the case if you have freezer space. If you don't, you'll have
to pare back your order. Still though, don't let the butcher cut
anything. "Put your hands up and step away from the saw."
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: goggling and growling if withdrawing food

I warned against it, because I'm very suspicious of the term. In my
understanding, salt is added when water is injected to keep the water
in the tissues. I myself am concerned that it would not be just plain
water. If you don't have a problem with it, *shrug, ok.
Giselle

> Giselle wrote:
> "Go to the grocery store; buy several whole chickens. Be sure there
> are no salt solutions, *retained water, flavorings or seasonings -
> added."
>
> I thought 'retained water' was fine? Thanks
>
> Jaimie
>

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[rawfeeding] Re: I'm getting scared!!

Last Wednesday (today is Monday) he received a vaccination for a
myriad of things that I can list for you if you want. >>

Get him to the vet asap, it could be parvo. I can't tell you how many
times I've read of puppies getting ill after vaccines - I hope your pup
is okay.

Greta

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[rawfeeding] Green Tripe Info

Hello All,

I am looking for some informative information of Green Tripe,
Nutrition, benifits, etc....

If anyone has some good links could you please share :)

Thanks

-Ross

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[rawfeeding] Re: Raw Feeding in the Big Apple

hi,

i'm a new member and am interested in starting raw feeding for
our olde english bulldogge. couple questions:
- does anyone have updated suggestions for meat sources in NYC?
- how important is organic/grass-fed..? and how doable is that, in
terms of cost?

i'm sure i will have a lot more questions in the weeks to come...
thanks in advance for any advice..

cheers,
kathryn
NYC

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[rawfeeding] Re: Turkey and banner ads...

Lol, I never thought that feeding my dog would involve a trip to the
hardware store! Funny, I used to feel ill at the though of handling
raw meat. Now it's for my dogs I'll happily cut and tear carcasses
apart (with a view to the dogs eventually doing that themselves one
day!)

My rather blunt kitchen knife coped well cutting chickens into quarters
yesterday. From what you guys say I'll need something alittle stronger
before tackling a turkey though.

Evie
:)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Mona <rjrc@...> wrote:
> We "buzz" through just about any frozen meat with a jigsaw. I've been
known to whack a bird apart with an axe or hatchet..works better on
thawed critters, I find.
> Just about any sharp implement would work..the butcher here typically
uses a band saw and I've seen mention of circular saws and various
others.
>
> Mona

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[rawfeeding] I'm getting scared!!

Hello everyone,

Ranger, my 60 pound 16 week old English Mastiff is really sick.
Last Wednesday (today is Monday) he received a vaccination for a
myriad of things that I can list for you if you want. He has not
had but a couple of solid stools since he went onto the prey diet
about 3 weeks ago. He has been on mostly chicken but has sneaked
over a few times and stolen my older dog's pork ribs. Plus the day
before yesterday I gave him some Old Mother Hubbard treats because
we were working on a couple of training things. Like I say, he has
had pretty runny stools anyway but I chalked it up to him getting
used to it (he had monster piles when he was on Kibble but I know
from reading here that it is normal for them to be much smaller on
meat and bone). Starting yesterday he has had nothing but air and
water coming out his bottom. He threw up once yesterday and then
again this morning. Both times there was quite a bit of food in it,
they were literally piles that stunk like crazy. When I say he is
pooing water I mean there isn't even any color to it any more. I am
waiting for the vet to open but wanted to see if you have any
thoughts or suggestions as to what I can do for now. He ate last
night but threw up within 10 minutes of eating literally a teaspoon
sized piece of chicken this morning. He slept all day yesterday, is
extremely docile...I am really scared!

Tracey and Ranger

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[rawfeeding] I'm getting scared!!

Hello everyone,

Ranger, my 60 pound 16 week old English Mastiff is really sick.
Last Wednesday (today is Monday) he received a vaccination for a
myriad of things that I can list for you if you want. He has not
had but a couple of solid stools since he went onto the prey diet
about 3 weeks ago. He has been on mostly chicken but has sneaked
over a few times and stolen my older dog's pork ribs. Plus the day
before yesterday I gave him some Old Mother Hubbard treats because
we were working on a couple of training things. Like I say, he has
had pretty runny stools anyway but I chalked it up to him getting
used to it (he had monster piles when he was on Kibble but I know
from reading here that it is normal for them to be much smaller on
meat and bone). Starting yesterday he has had nothing but air and
water coming out his bottom. He threw up once yesterday and then
again this morning. Both times there was quite a bit of food in it,
they were literally piles that stunk like crazy. When I say he is
pooing water I mean there isn't even any color to it any more. I am
waiting for the vet to open but wanted to see if you have any
thoughts or suggestions as to what I can do for now. He ate last
night but threw up within 10 minutes of eating literally a teaspoon
sized piece of chicken this morning. He slept all day yesterday, is
extremely docile...I am really scared!

Tracey and Ranger

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[rawfeeding] Re: goggling and growling if withdrawing food

Giselle wrote:
"Go to the grocery store; buy several whole chickens. Be sure there
are no salt solutions, *retained water, flavorings or seasonings -
added."

I thought 'retained water' was fine? Thanks

Jaimie

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[rawfeeding] Re: Runny bowel movements

The other question I would have is how often are you feeding him?
Pups at his age need to eat their specified amount of food broken down
into 2-3 meals. Maybe he is getting to much meat at once. Our 5
month old Bear will get runny poop if I give him to big of a meal.
Kimberly
> Can you give us more specifics on what exactly you're feeding him
and how
> much?
>
> Casey
>

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[rawfeeding] Re: Maya -- Remember the live bird she ate?

Not to turn things completely scarey, but a friend of a friend had two
dogs that killed and ate a bird. Within 6 hours her two dogs were
dead. There was some poison or parasite in the bird that reacted that
quickly. She didn't even have time to get them to the vet. I doubt
this is that serious with your guy, but I would definitely get a poop
sample over to the vet since the diarrhea has continued for so long.
Parasite can often affect the poops and nothing else seems wrong with
the dog.
Kimberly

> >Do you guys think it's possible she could have gotten a parasite
from
> >the bird?
>

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[rawfeeding] The great goat experiment

So, we have been raw feeding for maybe a month, and while at a
ridgeback event in VA we bought 2 stillborn goats and a stillborn lamb
from a farm there. She sells raw food so decided to immediately bag
and freeze the critters rather than toss them. Anyway, on to my story-

We fed both dogs together (for the first time) and outside (first
time) and gave them this whole, furry creature (for the first time).
So who knew how it would go, but we're all about experimentation :-)

I cut a few slits in it so they could smell that it was meat- some
sniffing but no go. So i pulled the skin off the ribcage
(surprisingly easy...) and my little puppy's lightbulb went off. Yum!
It took my older puppy a while longer. I swear he had a look on his
face as though he had moral issues with this :-) However, any issues
he had were quickly dissolved!

Reader's digest version is: Stella growls at Shaman for trying to eat
some. Shaman grabs hind leg, Stella is holding front leg, pull the
thing into 2 parts. Shaman steals Stella's half, grabs the head, and
runs around the yard with feet and organs dangling as stella tries to
reclaim her prey.

My husband and I are taking pictures, laughing hysterically at the
spectacle, and hoping our neighbors don't come out to say hi :)
After the initial growl, there wasn't any food aggression, just the
fun game of raw carcass keep away!

They got everything down except the hind quarters, which were dropped
early and forgotten about, but rinsed and bagged for tonight.

Here's a proud mama of her two puppies who ate fur, hooves, and all
with relish.

For the record, the large intestines were untouched, small intestines
(i think thats what it was) were dragged around the yard, and I lost
track of the stomach. Stillborn as it was, there probably wasn't
anything in it anyway.

Jaimie & the Ridgebacks

PS- I know I'm supposed to keep them inactive for an hour after
eating, but I guess there's no keeping them still WHILE they're eating
such a fun food, lol.

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[rawfeeding] The First Hour

Hi all. Jolene (50# lab/shep mix with hip dysplasia, 2yrs. old, always on kibble) had her
first raw meal less than an hour ago. I was excited and we both thought it was strange but
that soon dissipated....I gave her a chicken leg quarter after reading back into the archives
since that seemed like a good/cheap start and she did fine, but is it too bony? An old post
I just came across made this suggestion.

I have a number of other questions, but I promise that any future emails won't be so
demanding!!
1. What exactly counts for meatymeats that aren't super expensive?
2. What other chicken cuts can I give her so we can stick to one protein for the next two
weeks? (And is 2 wks usuually enough?)
3. I have to board her next weekend and I'm not sure what to bring for food. Several
ziplocks of...what is generally safest/best?
4. Alas, I've passed this local meat market but I've never been in. I'll check out sale items
but what might be good to ask the butcher? Buying in bulk? Buying things he might throw
out?

Thanks so much! I know there's a lot here :-)
jen & jolene

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Re: [rawfeeding] DARK URINE,

I would get a sample to the vet....sounds like a bladder infection. Brown urine sounds like it has blood in it to me. I'm not sure however if this would have anything to do with feeding raw...someone more experienced can jump in here.

Shannon

dotdotmg3 <dots_lists@earthlink.net> wrote:

Hi,

I just noticed that the urine from one of my dogs, when it dried was
very dark brown and looked like it had crystals in it. I havn't noticed
her going again.
Dot

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[rawfeeding] Re: Turkey and banner ads...

Anyway, I'm searching through the archives and I had to laugh at the
banner ads that kept showing up - one for Proplan and another for Purina
dog foods! That's advertising money wasted! I didn't even feed that
crap before I discovered raw!

**LOL

What do other people use? I did
see in one of the archives that someone uses a hatchet..... ????

**We "buzz" through just about any frozen meat with a jigsaw. I've been known to whack a bird apart with an axe or hatchet..works better on thawed critters, I find.
Just about any sharp implement would work..the butcher here typically uses a band saw and I've seen mention of circular saws and various others.

Of course, standard safety applies.

Mona

Thanks!
Christine

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[rawfeeding] When to switch new meat source

I started my Dane on boneless chicken breasts last Sat. Up until Thurs
he was doing great, but now he has runny stools :( I did incl digestive
enzymes in his meals. He's just getting chicken, no organs etc.

Wouldnt he have GI upset before Thurs if it was the chicken?

How long should I wait until I change to another meat source?

Because of his age I was worried about the bone, but should I give him
a leg qtr to firm up the stool? Maybe its too much protein for
starters?

He's not acting lethargic, actually he's had more energy than Ive seen
in awhile (he's 8.5) :-)

thank you
Lori

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[rawfeeding] Re: Whole Tripe - what am I in for

LOL too funny Sandee!!!!! I'll will definetly take your advice!!!

Pics are too gross! I can smell the stuff already!
Suz

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[rawfeeding] Re: Question about Organs-Skin

sandy wrote:

>Lora, I'm sure you didn't mean this, but IME this is the kind of post
>that freaks people out and reinforces the notion that raw feeding
>is "too hard" and "too complicated" to be done by normal folks.
> . . . Never ever feeding skin might be on the order of skipping a whole
>category of parts, sure. I probably missed it because I've been
>short of time, but I wasn't aware of anyone saying that they never
>fed skin.

I've only been feeding raw for 2 months now, so I still qualify as a newbie.
However, I've been paying attention to my mentors on the list and have
embraced the intent of the whole-prey diet.

You appear to have missed the majority of this particular thread. It began by
someone asking whether chicken skin was classified as an organ, and whether
heart was as well. Chris responded that yes, skin is technically defined as
an organ. Posts then followed of the type:

". . . If I'd registered that before, I wouldn't have been worrying so
about finding some organ besides liver. I've left skin on all the turkey and
chicken I've fed that came that way."

"The skin goes over the limit for the 5% of other organs in the prey
diet. Should you add it into that 5% or consider it separate?"

To me, these posts represent a serious misunderstanding of the diet and its
intentions.

In a brief search for the source of the "80/10/10" average prey components, I
easily found the following:

>http://www.rawfedcats.org/naturesway.htm
"These proportions of body parts are relatively the same in virtually every
prey animal, and the percentages of these ratios are, approximately:
5 - 10% organs (with half that amount being liver)
10 - 15% edible bone
80 - 85% meat, fat, skin, connective tissue etc."

>http://rawfed.com/myths/preymodel.html
"All of these prey animals are made up of bones, organs, muscle meat, skin,
hide/hair/feathers, fat and other connective tissue. In the average prey
animal, the ratio of these parts is approximately:
5-10% organs (1/2 of this amount is liver)
10-15% edible bones
80-85% muscle meat (and the rest of the critter)"

>http://en.allexperts.com/q/Cat-Food-3490/taurine.htm
"For instance, a whole prey animal will offer . . . roughly the following:
10-15% edible bones
10% organs (1/5 of this being liver)
75-80% meat, skin, fat, connective tissues, and other "by-products""

Over and over again, it is made clear that the 10% organ recommendation is
for INTERNAL ORGANS, not something that science has classified as an "organ,"
and that skin has always been considered within the 80% (or so) category of
FLESH.

>Although I gotta say, I'm not aware of any specific
>nutritional qualities of skin (versus meat and bone), anyway.

That's what they used to say about potato skins. If you believe what a whole
prey diet is correct, than you can't dismiss an entire category of flesh just
because no one has provided you the research.

As I wrote in my first post, I'm not suggesting that your pet's diet is a
failure if you're not handing them a still-warm, unskinned wild rabbit.
However, jumping on the opportunity to use skin as a replacement for internal
organs represents a clear ignorance of what the "80/10/10" average model is
meant to represent. Either that or a willingness to feed incorrectly but
still pat oneself on the back over feeding raw.

Nothing in the prey animal average mentions raw tripe, but we know that it's
an important, specialized part that should be fed if at all possible. It's
not something you can go to the neighborhood grocery and pick up, but it is
available through several sources and I think we all recommend feeding it.

Of course, liver is the easiest organ to obtain. But kidneys are out there,
as are sweetbreads. You might have to go to a specialized market for them
(ethnic or butcher), and you might have to specifically ask for them, but
they can be obtained, and they should be, if you understand why you're
following a whole-prey model with an 80/10/10 average recommendation.

Lora
Evanston, IL

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[rawfeeding] Corgis and allergies

FWIW, one of my Corgis (started on raw at nine years of age) had horrendous allergies every year (~Aug./Sept.) without fail for five years of his life. The first year he was switched to raw, voila! Allergies never occured. Hmmm, coincidence? I think not. But, my dogs were basically switched to prey model raw (with apologies to Holly the rescue GSD who had to endure veggies for a month before I "saw the light"), and that made all the difference.
While you've made headway by getting away from kibble, Kristen, your Corgi truly does not need all that "stuff" -- think natural, think "small house wolf" and get that Corgi straightened around. Sometimes we humans tend to overthink and overcomplicate things, but remember that Mother Nature always has the right answer. Look to that and your dog will benefit greatly.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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[rawfeeding] DARK URINE,

Hi,

I just noticed that the urine from one of my dogs, when it dried was
very dark brown and looked like it had crystals in it. I havn't noticed
her going again. She is in a pen on concrete so I can see where she has
gone. I s this a Kidney infection? My dogs have only been on raw for a
couple of months and so far were doing great.

Dot

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