[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11831
There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Looking for a raw co-op
From: ed_hebel
1b. Re: Looking for a raw co-op
From: Carol Santangelo
1c. Re: Looking for a raw co-op
From: susan/foxfire
1d. Re: Looking for a raw co-op
From: Shirley
1e. Re: Looking for a raw co-op
From: Shirley
2a. sources for salmonella, e.coli and other bacteria
From: esmolensky
2b. Re: sources for salmonella, e.coli and other bacteria
From: Sandee Lee
2c. Re: sources for salmonella, e.coli and other bacteria
From: Chia
3a. Re: bone/meat ratio question
From: carnesbill
3b. Re: bone/meat ratio question
From: costrowski75
4a. New Puppy, New to rawfeeding, Help!
From: Cindy Marabito
4b. Re: New Puppy, New to rawfeeding, Help!
From: costrowski75
5a. Re: Buffalo Rib
From: Yasuko herron
6a. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
From: Yasuko herron
6b. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
From: ginny wilken
6c. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
From: Giselle
7a. Re: An unexpected benefit!
From: Casey Post
8a. Re: Gizzards - was Question: 8 week old puppy (Sambuca)
From: Bumble1994@aol.com
8b. Re: Gizzards - was Question: 8 week old puppy (Sambuca)
From: Giselle
8c. Mange and protecting from it
From: Brenda Grundt
8d. Re: Mange and protecting from it
From: Karen Swanay
9a. two meals into feeding raw with so many questions!
From: Theodosia Pulitzer
9b. Re: two meals into feeding raw with so many questions!
From: Giselle
10a. Re: Adequate variety/How to find spleen?
From: diannem200400
10b. Re: Adequate variety/How to find spleen?
From: Giselle
Messages
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1a. Re: Looking for a raw co-op
Posted by: "ed_hebel" edhebel18@lycos.com ed_hebel
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:49 am ((PDT))
> My question is does anyone know of a food co-op in central
> Florida where I could purchase raw for my dogs?
I get raw food from Winn-Dixie; they get me chicken backs for 31 to 69
cents/lb and beef heart for 99 cents/lb. You'd have to order it
because it's not a common, hot-selling item.
I'm not really too sure what a food co-op is, maybe you can fill me in.
-Ed H
Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Looking for a raw co-op
Posted by: "Carol Santangelo" carol.santangelo@gmail.com santangelo_carol
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:11 am ((PDT))
I live in West Palm and I tried finding a co-op near me and was
unsuccessful. However, I did find one in Orlando and another one in
Jacksonville. I don't have any direct links to give you, but I found them
by searching through Yahoo Groups. Try doing a Yahoo Groups search for
"co-op" and see what comes up. Wish I could be more help, but those are too
far away for me so I didn't pay much attention to them.
Carol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: Looking for a raw co-op
Posted by: "susan/foxfire" fxfireob@mac.com thadnsusan
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:42 am ((PDT))
maybe try the local wapf chapter, http://www.westonaprice.org/
localchapters/index.html#fl
also you could go to butchers and slaughter houses and see if they
can help you. we started out using our local food co-op, bought a
freezer and started buy by the case.
good luck,
susan
Messages in this topic (6)
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1d. Re: Looking for a raw co-op
Posted by: "Shirley" ssthunderpony@yahoo.com ssthunderpony
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:08 am ((PDT))
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "schnauzers1015" <havanese1@...>
wrote:
> My question is does anyone know of a food co-op in central
> Florida where I could purchase raw for my dogs?
> Dolores
>
####### This should help you get started.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
HTH,
Shirley
Messages in this topic (6)
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1e. Re: Looking for a raw co-op
Posted by: "Shirley" ssthunderpony@yahoo.com ssthunderpony
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:10 am ((PDT))
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "schnauzers1015" <havanese1@...>
wrote:
My question is does anyone know of a food co-op in central
> Florida where I could purchase raw for my dogs?
>
##### Try RawChat also
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/?yguid=140553699
HTH,
~Shirley
Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. sources for salmonella, e.coli and other bacteria
Posted by: "esmolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:13 am ((PDT))
MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS, PLEASE!
Hi guys, I need your help please with my wife.
I'm trying to convince my wife on raw-feeding and thinks it's not a
good idea. Although I do feed raw once a day and K**** for the other
meal. I know this is wrong, but for right now I don't have a choice. I
don't have a seperate freezer or room for one yet. She says she doesn't
want meat to be in the fridge after the initial couple of days or so.
I tell her as long as it's covered it should be no problem. Also she
doesn't believe a dog can handle ripe food or older meat. Are there any
credible, factual sources out there that I can give her to read so
she'll believe? I'm almost at a point of going to the old fashioned
library and research this further. It would help a great deal if I
didn't have to do that. I hope your wisdom will put me in the right
direction.
thank you all!
Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: sources for salmonella, e.coli and other bacteria
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:56 am ((PDT))
Read through the rawfeeding myths....lots of great factual, down-to-earth
info there.....
http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html
Sandee & the Dane Gang
From: "esmolensky" <esmolensky@yahoo.com>
Hi guys, I need your help please with my wife.
I'm trying to convince my wife on raw-feeding and thinks it's not a
good idea. Although I do feed raw once a day and K**** for the other
meal. I know this is wrong, but for right now I don't have a choice. I
don't have a seperate freezer or room for one yet. She says she doesn't
want meat to be in the fridge after the initial couple of days or so.
I tell her as long as it's covered it should be no problem. Also she
doesn't believe a dog can handle ripe food or older meat. Are there any
credible, factual sources out there that I can give her to read so
she'll believe? I'm almost at a point of going to the old fashioned
library and research this further. It would help a great deal if I
didn't have to do that. I hope your wisdom will put me in the right
direction.
Messages in this topic (3)
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2c. Re: sources for salmonella, e.coli and other bacteria
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:55 am ((PDT))
Hey :-))
Go to above link and peruse the many 'myth' pages... It's hard for any of
us here to actually empathize completely since the thousands of us here feed
this way without any issues.
We are probably the most passionate, caring group of people you'll ever
come across. People that go out...search for bargains on
meat...chop...freeze...spend laborious hours doing all of the above... not
to mention volunteer helping others...you must admit, we're pretty
incredible!
Compare that to Joe Smith down the block who quickly darts into
Petsmart...grabs a back of commercial crap, and it is ALL CRAP, and that is
as much work as he needs to do.
I don't know about you but I know if I did have a child...I would
sacrifice time, effort...make certain that this child has excellent
nutrition. I would do as much as I could to create a strong, healthy adult.
When that child turns 18, they can eat whatever they wish, but up until
then, it is in the job description to tend to and care for this human being.
So, a dog..a carnivore...a Wolf...do they have a say? Are they
essentially mute?.. Is there life span not as long as we would hope? Why
then, would ANYONE give substandard nutrition to such a defenceless,
gorgeous animal?...
Is it a pain in the butt to sometimes drive out of my way to pick a
special on meat up?.. Yes!! Is it a mess in my garage or kitchen, like a
scene from CSI, when I slice lamb livers into appropriate portions?..
Yes...a gross mess!! That's life..suck it up! Sheesh...there are worse
things in this world then a little mess or stink.
Considering kibble has only been around less then a hundred years and dogs
have reproduced and thrived for centuries before, I think it's safe to say
that raw is hugely appropriate for an animal with teeth in it's head
designed to cut and tear flesh.
I don't see any trees growing kibble out there, do you?.. I have seen
dogs eat road kill that is so rotten, it makes you gag...I have given my
boy..a chicken that was absolutely disgusting...he's a Wolf for heaven's
sakes...what do you think they are supposed to eat?
You need not go to any library. Go to www.rawmeatybones.com and download
a few chapters...especially chapter 4 of Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health.
The BEST thing is not the EASY thing, is taking a stand against feeding
animals and people garbage food...standing against mainstream
commercialism...doing the RIGHT thing. Also, www.rawfeddogs.net
has a
recipe page of many of our beautiful dogs... Just know, that dogs are wolves
and wolves eat the flesh and organs of their prey, period. This is not
rocket science, it is following what mother Nature meant. As a horse should
eat grass...as a cat should eat mice...as a snake should eat rats...a dog
should eat the flesh of animals that consume vegetation. This is the circle
of life. A National Geographic show on wild dogs will quickly show you what
is right...just follow your heart..and don't over think.
ok....getting off my soap box now.. ;-))
Chia & Ricco ( not around much but when we are...whew...shut us up)
Hi guys, I need your help please with my wife.
I'm trying to convince my wife on raw-feeding and thinks it's not a
good idea. Although I do feed raw once a day and K**** for the other
meal. I know this is wrong, but for right now I don't have a choice. I
don't have a seperate freezer or room for one yet. She says she doesn't
want meat to be in the fridge after the initial couple of days or so.
I tell her as long as it's covered it should be no problem. Also she
doesn't believe a dog can handle ripe food or older meat. Are there any
credible, factual sources out there that I can give her to read so
she'll believe? I'm almost at a point of going to the old fashioned
library and research this further. It would help a great deal if I
didn't have to do that. I hope your wisdom will put me in the right
direction.
thank you all!
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Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: bone/meat ratio question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:11 am ((PDT))
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ann-Marie Seiler <amseiler@...>
wrote:
>
> If I feed a diet consisting on chicken quarters and beef heart
(say 1
> meal of each a day) are my ratios going to be okay?
Meat/bone ratio is no big deal. I wouldn't worry about that. There
is not much variety in what you want to feed but for a couple of
months it won't hurt anything. Your problem may be the beef heart
as it is very rich and feeding that much MAY cause your dog some
digestive problems (diarrhea).
Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
Feeding Raw since October 2002
"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale
Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: bone/meat ratio question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))
, Ann-Marie Seiler <amseiler@...> wrote:
>
> If I feed a diet consisting on chicken quarters and beef heart (say 1
> meal of each a day) are my ratios going to be okay? I need to
simplify
> feeding for the next couple of months.
*****
For an otherwise healthy dog, several months on a very limited menu is
not the end of the world, no. But I suggest you find a way to get some
liver in there from time to time.
Chris O
Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. New Puppy, New to rawfeeding, Help!
Posted by: "Cindy Marabito" doggirl1@earthlink.net rowdycowgirl50
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:27 am ((PDT))
I just wanted to issue a word of caution regarding your vet. Please
be wary when approaching your vet about raw feeding. I am in rescue
and have been to many many vets. I now use a homeopathic vet, but
also have a very supportive conventional vet for trauma cases and
bloodwork, etc. Not all conventional pets are on the same page as we
are and sometimes (some of them) do not agree with raw feeding. While
searching for a new conventional vet recently for two rescued
puppies, I had a very disturbing experience. I left feeling very
badly. I just wanted, without disparaging anyone, to caution you
about being too trusting. You sound like such a nice, happy person
with a brand new puppy to share your life with. You have chosen the
greatest gift to give that puppy, good health. Good luck and best
wishes and I hope I haven't offended anyone. That is certainly not my
intention. I love being a member of this group and learning brand new
things every day about healthy rawfeeding and hearing all of your
stories about your cherished animals. In my world, with all of the
mistreatment of animals one sees and hears about, this group provides
me with very much hope.
Thank you and good luck to you,
Cindy Marabito
Reunion Rescue
Animals First Rescue
Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: New Puppy, New to rawfeeding, Help!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:22 am ((PDT))
"Mary Ann" <maryanndiaz@...> wrote:
> After looking into it I decided that doing veggies and fruits is
> mostly unnecessary but I think I will do a fruit puree once or
twice a
> week as a treat/snack.
*****
I think you should wait on the fancy frills until you feel confident
about the basics. Treats can wait.
>
> I was thinking about switching it up between:
>
> Ground Turkey
> Chicken neck/carcass etc
> eggs w/ shell
*****
You don't need ground turkey, you don't need anything ground. Rather
than going for turkey added to yet more chicken, how about finding
beef to use instead? You should always aspire to feed as much
protein variety as you can find/afford, but if you're talking bare
necessities here, beef or some other red meat would be one of them.
If you are seriously pressed, use chicken parts as a protein source
with edible bone and feed beef (or some other red meat) as a second
protein source; boneless is fine. Also consider pork. It is a red
meat, it is generally affordable and available and the bones are
consumble or edible to some extent.
Using chicken, beef, pork, maybe fish and yes even turkey should give
you a good foundation to build a dog on. Add heart to this for more
red meat opportunities and feed liver once in a while and you're good
to go.
> 1. What are the best (cheap) types of meat I can get for her?
*****
Pork and what's on sale. Keep those eyes peeled for deals.
> 2. How often do I feed her RMBs? How often do I feed her at all?
(she
> is about a total of 3-5lbs at the most)
*****
Raw feeding is less about RMBs and more about body parts--some are
meaty bones, some are not-so meaty bones, some have no bones at all.
When you rely on variety, you feed some of everything eventually.
Since it takes very little bone to fulfill her nutritional needs, how
much edible bone you feed beyond that will be determined by how much
you think she needs to keep her stools uneventful. Some dogs need
bone in every meal but most don't.
I'd be feeding this baby at least three times a day right now, maybe
four if she gets squirty trying to pack a day's nutrition into three
meals, then down to two at six months or so. You'll have to sort
this out as you both go along. Personally, I think feeding bones
every meal is too much bone and not enough meat; chicken necks, wings
and carcasses add up to lots of bone. A chcken wing for breakfast
and then no bone the rest of the day might work, or not. Just
remember that she doesn't need but 10%-15% of her diet as edible bone
and that her daily meals don't have to be the same just as her day to
day meals don't have to be balanced.
> > 3.How much do I feed her (from what I've gathered for a puppy it
> should be about 10% of her body weight)
*****
Or 2%-4% of her expected adult weight. The 10% puppy thing works til
about 5 months or so. I just go with anticipated adult weight so I
don't have to think about it any longer than I have to.
If you're good with 10%, then you'd feed 10% of three to five pounds.
This would range from just under five ounces (4.8) to somewhat more
than half a pound (9 ounces). And then you would adjust as needed to
keep her lean but not skinny, satisfied but not fat. A good
indication that you are feeding too much is loose stool. You see
loose stools, don't assume right off she's sick, assume you are
feeding more than she can process.
>4. She's not likely to have diarrhea but she might have loose stools
if you feed too much, feed too much fat, and/or introduce too much
too soon. Loose stools are usually operator error.
> 5.Do the bones digest completely in her system? Should I grind since
> she is so young and small? (I sooo do not have a grinder or know if
I
> can afford one...)
*****
What isn't digested will be pooped out. What she can't eat, she
won't. If you feed the proper amount of bone, she'll digest it
fine. Why would you grind? She's already eaten a chicken wing with
elan, don't go backwards! Spend that grinder money on red meat.
Basically, just give me any/all the advice you can about the best
ways
> to raw feed my dog without eating up an exorbitant amount of time
and
> money.
*****
I never see puppy time as exorbitant. Puppyhood is fleeting and I
guarantee when she's into early adolescence you will not remember
half of how you raised her when she was a wee bairn. Patience is a
virtue and trying to speed things along at an inappropriate pace will
only makes things more difficult. If you feed an appropriate amount
of the appropriate food and you let her tell you what's appropriate,
your time will be well spent.
In terms of money, don't buy lots and lots of untried food. When you
are experimenting with a new protein source, buy just a few meals
worth lest you wind up with a freezer full of useless stuff. Shop
smart, don't get stuck in a rut, never eat a at place called "Mom",
never play cards with a man named "Doc" and remember to breathe.
Chris O
Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Buffalo Rib
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:49 am ((PDT))
>I think this is a pretty remarkable performance for a Corgi, especially one fairly new to raw. >Good work, Palette!
Hi,Ginny. Since I was reading that Beef and Buffalo bones are harder side and some dog can eat the bone but some would have just leave bone and walk away from bones,so,I too was thinking both feeding time for Beef and Buffalo,she would just leave bone for me to pick up.
Well,I was wrong. Beef rib bone,on first try date, she left maybe 50% bone and walked out and second date beef bone on,she ate all. and for Buffalo rib bone, she took 60 min and left half for 1st day and yesterday the second day,she ate 90% and walked out leaving 10% of bone left.Maybe she has super strong jaw or something? She eat pork rib bone as if she eat chicken and no problem.
My husband was there yestreday when she was munching on buffalo bone and,he was amazed too.In fact,she cracked bone in half the time she spent on the same thing trying to crack the bone day before yestrday after me placing the meal on curtain mat. then, she was cracking better too.
She is real persistent dog and seems she pick up things pretty quick. So,she might have found best way to hold and crack bone I guess.Or simply having strong jaw.
As I thought,she was knocked out and slept so deep last night.
Really,rib bones like this is good excersise for dog and get dog very tired too.
yassy
---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (12)
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6a. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:51 am ((PDT))
>I add a 1/2 - 1 tsp of SEBP to an ounce of ground meat, usually chicken or turkey to make >1-2 meatballs and feed accordingly.
Hi,Gisell.That is cleaver idea too! You can become next Rachael Ray for poooch:-P
I know that most people on this list avoid feeding ground meat for inhaling or not much benefit compare to chunk of meat like roast but,if you make this meatball with SEBP,then,doyou bake the meatball to avoid inhaling or only on this occasion,you use ground meat but give as is just like you feed other raw meat?
Also, if you want to feed this way when you need to get SEBP this way then, the dog meal is just meatball or this is along with normal meal portion?
Now I can see many ways to give SEBP;sprinkle,making syrup,and making meatball with ground meat .. Interesting!
Thank you
yassy
---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (7)
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6b. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:18 am ((PDT))
On Jul 21, 2007, at 4:31 AM, Cdandp2@aol.com wrote:
> I don't think the honey is necessary. Now that you mention the
> sugars part,
> maybe I'll try it without next time I need to use SEB. Meanwhile,
> though, I
> DO favor the boiling it up in water method to make a syrup which,
> apparently, coats the stomach/GI tract better and prevents getting
> gummed up higher in
> up. Do you think that's a myth? It's the way it was explained
> when I got
> the recipe.
>
> Carol for Spencer
No, it may work, but I don't feel it's always necessary, as long as
the stuff is sort of sprinkled over food, or stirred into liquid. I'd
prefer it does the work of expanding and absorbing liquids within the
digestive tract and not before:)
ginny and Tomo
All stunts performed without a net!
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Messages in this topic (7)
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6c. Re: Slipper Elm Bark
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:38 pm ((PDT))
Hi, Yassy!
Thanks for the compliment! : )
I don't often feed ground meat. I occasionally buy ground beef, if it
is very cheap. I will then freeze a portion with a whole pork neck
bone and feed it frozen, too. My girl tolerates this well. Better than
she tolerates beef roast with beef bone or beef ribs, usually. She may
hork up beef bone bits, but never pork.
If I'm dosing a dog with SEBP, I will buy a small amount of ground
chicken or turkey to use just for this purpose. I feed the meatball(s)
raw.
I've never had much luck using it in liquids, the dogs I've dosed with
it on mostly wouldn't drink enough of that way. I never boil it, thats
cooking - it works better plain, I think.
The other way I have found works is sprinkling on food, but if I'm
fasting the dog, they get more SEBP in them with less meat the
"meatball way", ime.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey
> Hi,Giselle.That is cleaver idea too! You can become next Rachael
Ray for pooch:-P
>
> I know that most people on this list avoid feeding ground meat for
inhaling or not much benefit compare to chunk of meat like roast
but,if you make this meatball with SEBP,then,do you bake the meatball
to avoid inhaling or only on this occasion,you use ground meat but
give as is just like you feed other raw meat?
>
> Also, if you want to feed this way when you need to get SEBP this
way then, the dog meal is just meatball or this is along with normal
meal portion?
>
> Now I can see many ways to give SEBP;sprinkle,making syrup,and
making meatball with ground meat .. Interesting!
>
> Thank you
>
>
> yassy
Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. Re: An unexpected benefit!
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:14 am ((PDT))
>Well, after about 2 weeks or so on raw, he
> has stopped leaking! I am overjoyed to say the least. But I am curious
> as to a scientific explanation for how a raw diet could help this
> condition.(I was never very good at biology.)I'd love to hear
> everyone's thoughts. Is this cause & effect?
Kathleen,
You're not the first to experience this "side effect" of going raw. It's my
opinion that it's not so much the raw food that makes the difference as the
removal of an offending food (kibble). Food sensitivities can manifest in
odd ways sometimes and urinary incontinence is one of them. Grains and
other pro-inflammatory components of kibble are prime suspects in the food
sensitivity lineup....
So, while your Grey's physical condition is still there, it's no longer
being aggravated by whatever was in the commercial food that you were
feeding him.
We see similar results with arthritic dogs - they feel better on raw because
they are no longer having to deal with grains and crapnot that aggravate
joint pain.
Raw is not a cure, just a shot at letting the dog's body be all it can be.
My opinion.
Casey
Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Gizzards - was Question: 8 week old puppy (Sambuca)
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:48 am ((PDT))
In a message dated 7/21/2007 8:46:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_megan.giselle@gmail.com _ (mailto:megan.giselle@gmail.com?Subject=
Re:%20Question:%208%20week%20old%20puppy%20(Sambuca)%20need%20advice%20on%20next%20step) writes:
Both sites have separate listings for gizzards and giblets;
Thanks for the good news..because my cats have made a LOT of meals off of
chicken gizzards and hearts, and seem to have thrived well on them.
In the beginning they tended to gulp down an entire heart and/or a small
piece of gizzard, throw it back up, stare at it, and then set in to gnawing on
it. They did learn to--generally--chew first, then swallow. Dennis The Menace
sort of inhaled 2 oz of beef heart this morning, but it didn't come back up.
:)
Lynda
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8b. Re: Gizzards - was Question: 8 week old puppy (Sambuca)
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:57 pm ((PDT))
Hi, Lynda!
YVW!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey
*** Both sites have separate listings for gizzards and giblets; ***
>
>
> Thanks for the good news..because my cats have made a LOT of meals
off of
> chicken gizzards and hearts, and seem to have thrived well on them.
> :)
>
> Lynda
Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Mange and protecting from it
Posted by: "Brenda Grundt" grundt@xplornet.com scorch_st2001
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:54 pm ((PDT))
I have a 18 month old GSD (raw fed) and he goes to play with his sister. Now
the girl that has his sisterhas boarded a golden retreiver for a couple of
days. I noticed that this dog has patches of her hair missing around her
ears, forehead, and down her front legs. All indications is that is is a
form of mange. Now, I¹m not a vet, the owners are aware that something is
wrong. They first blamed it on the GSD¹s (Oh, it¹s just bite marks!).
Searching on the internet, I¹ve read that some essential oils can be used to
help treat. Make a mix up (I treated my daughter¹s 2.5 foot long hair
successfully through 4 years of outbreaks at her school with it) and have
sprayed it on the patches. I¹ve read that a weak immune system can make
infestations of mange take hold. Do I have great worries about my GSD
catching it? He was with her and his sister for about 2 hours altogether. By
the way, the nearest vet is in Sault Ste. Marie about 150 miles away, so a
quick visit to the vet is not easily done.
Brenda Grundt
Www.wawa-news.com
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8d. Re: Mange and protecting from it
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:25 pm ((PDT))
Brenda,
There are two types of mange. Scabies is VERY contagious but easy to
treat. And Demodex which is NOT contagious but takes a long time to treat.
DISCLAIMER: I only know about allopathic tx for these things. NOT
homeopathic.
Demodex is an indication of an immune system issue, and is frequently seen
in adolescent dogs (could be because of vaccinations) but you should find
out which kind of mange the dog has before you do anything to your dog.
Because if it's demodex there is no reason to think that your dog will get
it.
HTH
Karen
>
>
>
--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."
LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
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Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. two meals into feeding raw with so many questions!
Posted by: "Theodosia Pulitzer" tpulitzer@sbcglobal.net tpulitzer
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:24 pm ((PDT))
Hello Group,
This is my first post. I have been reading the daily digests as well
as some archives for about two weeks now planning my switch to raw.
My interest in raw has come about due to my older pup, Stanley, a 4
year old bedlington terrier (18 lbs) having skin allergies. In
January, I started home cooked food trials through a dermatologist
vet's recommendation. After the six week elimination diet of cooked
turkey and sweet potatoe we introduced other foods. Then the vet
recommended we find a kibble!?!?! After all the work and finally some
relief I couldn't believe it. We tried a few "allergy" formulas with
a wave of itchiness returning. Meanwhile my little girl with little
or no allergies was coming along for the ride. On the new kibble she
was developing mild allergy symptoms as well. I went to my regular
vet with her new symptoms and presented all this info...she suggested
Raw (I know can you believe it!) so here we are. I am very excited
about the switch because of the success of the home cooked trials, I
am sure we can find a good and healthy balance of health with raw.
I have feed two small meals so far. I have feed a turkey leg to each
dog (choose to start with turkey because I suspect chicken
allergy...) in the A.M. and small bit of their old food in the P.M. I
let them get into the leg for a while but they really only ate half
of it at each meal. After the second meal my little girl (2 years
14lbs) threw up twice. It was the whole portion of the meat that came
up...also ate a bit of it back up. She is now doing fine. She hasn't
eaten any of the bone. I am going to try a turkey wing for her next
to see if she will eat this smaller bone (cross your fingers!). Do
you think this throwing up is normal part of the transition? When
should I get worried (already am a bit).
Stanley has always been a picky eater and although is very delicate
with his new raw food he seems to be doing just fine. He munched
through a good bit of the turkey leg today and almost half of the
bone too(I am so proud of him).
During the food trials Stanley was very allergic to cooked chicken,
lamb and salmon. Should I assume that he is also allergic to these
same foods raw? Because of this assumption I am starting with turkey
(but now I am thinking maybe he is allergic to turkey after a fit of
scrathing last night:( . I am going to try beef (another "safe"
cooked meat) if allergies worsen over the switch and then "test"
other meats we haven't tried... I am hoping pork will be good too, he
has never ever had it. Does anyone who has animals with allergies
have any advice on this? Do you provide anything else in the diet? I
am afraid if I just give pork and beef there won't be enough edible
bone in the diet. Do you know parts of these animals that have good
bones for them to eat? I want to supplement with fish oils too but I
am afraid because of the salmon allergy this might be bad too. But
also heard white fish might be o.k. even with a salmon allergy. Does
anyone have a non-fish source for omega 3? Also my vet suggested
giving ester-C regularly because it acts like a homeopathic anti-
histamine. I will try this once we are completely raw. I don't want
to change too many variables at one time. If I go in two week
intervals with all of these "options" and test it could take me two
years experimenting with all of these things...
Third question: are there turkey organs you can feed? Where would I
find turkey liver or heart? (I was a vegetarian for ten years until
February so meat in general is a new ball game for me) I feel like
everything is fair game. Is there anything I should totally stay away
from?
I do a lot of training in agility and obedience. Do you have
suggestions for very motivating raw treats? Is there anything that is
portable? that could be in my pocket (o.k I could use a fanny pack)
all day in the summer heat? are all my options slimy?
Well that is the bulk of it for now. I really appreciate this list
and all of the posts I have been able to gaze upon. Thank you in
advance for your time and help.
Tia, Stanley and Eloise
Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: two meals into feeding raw with so many questions!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:30 pm ((PDT))
Hi, Tia!
Welcome!
***** Both your dogs are little dogs, about 14-18lbs?
You can use this general feeding plan; feed daily 2 - 4% of the dog's
IDEAL ADULT weight. This total can be divided into meals. Smaller dogs
tend to need a higher percentage, larger dogs a smaller percentage.
But this plan can get you started. As you progress, you should keep an
eye on your dog's overall look; if you can feel ribs and there is a
visual waistline from above, OK. If a bit fluffy, feed a little less,
if ribby, feed a little more. Some people need to weigh their dog's
meals to start, some don't. Most people who start by weighing, stop
once they develop an 'eye' for amounts. All dogs are individuals, so
my guidelines are just that - adjust as you need to for each of your dogs.
Dogs who have food intolerances to cooked meats or kibble often don't
when fed raw. Most starches/grains and some veggies are much more
likely to provoke itchiness than raw meat. Its a good plan to
introduce a novel raw meat, and feed for at least a week, maybe
longer, to allow the dog's digestive system to adjust.
After you have no problems or digestive upsets with the initial
protein, introduce another. Feed that for a week or two also. Turkey,
pork, lamb, chicken, beef, rabbit, fish, goat, etc. Whatever meat you
can afford and can get can be fed. But go slowly! Try to remember,
this list supports and advocates feeding a species appropriate whole
prey model diet. So, if you can't get whole, undressed out prey, plan
to feed as many body parts of each protein you do feed.
There's no reason why you can't give raw chicken, or any meat you
suspected of causing itchiness in the past, a new, raw trial. Just
don't feed anything new for that week. I'd wait until I had a few
weeks, and a few acceptable proteins in their diet before
reintroducing a suspect one.
Its also better to go "cold turkey" and not feed cooked or kibble once
you make the switch to raw. Its easier to pinpoint a problem if you
are only feeding one protein and nothing else.
I'd recommend that you stick with the turkey for now, since you've
begun with it. Buy whole turkeys and cut into pieces. You can feed
larger pieces and pick it up when you've judged your dog has eaten
enough, time enough to let them eat until they are full when you're
all past the introductory phase with several proteins. I would feed
each dog a separate portion, in their 'own space'. Some dogs have
itchiness or vomiting when feeding meats that have been enhanced with
salt or flavored solutions - always read the labels and avoid those
meats, especially in the early introductory phase.
Things to remember about bones; not all bones are completely edible,
especially for small dogs. Avoid the too dense weight bearing bones of
larger, older animals. For little dogs, turkey leg bones may be too
dense. It does take some time for dog's digestive systems to adjust
from kibble/home cooked to digesting raw meat & bone optimally.
Vomiting up bone bits or pooping them out, is common early in raw
feeding. Dogs don't need more than about 10% of their diet to be
edible bone. So, there can be meals with bone, meals with a little
bone, and meals without bone.
As a general guideline, feed 80% meat, (muscle, fat, skin, connective
tissue, anything not bone or organ) 10% edible bone and 10% organ
(half of which should be liver) This can vary, especially in the
beginning, and not to worry about achieving this daily, or even weekly
- but it should balance out to approximately this over time.
Don't forget the organs! You don't have to worry about feeding them
right away. If you can find turkey liver, introduce a pinky fingernail
sized piece at a meal. You don't need much, only about 5% of their
total diet. Liver can cause loose, even runny stools. Turkey heart and
gizzard can be fed, too, but should be considered meatymeat, not
organ. If you can't find parts locally, you may be able to get what
you want here; http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/StoreFront There are
several online sources to buy raw.
As you introduce proteins, try to find organs to go with. Liver, of
any kind, is the easiest. Kidney, spleen, sweet breads, etc., any part
that isn't muscle or bone can be fed as organ, and is good. Whole
fish, if the dogs will eat it, is a good source of organs, too. Heart
is generally fed as meatymeat, not organ.
Salmon or Fish Body Oil can wait for awhile to be introduced. Don't
assume that it will cause itchiness. Find a good quality source that
doesn't have soy or other plant based oils added, or any other additives.
I don't recommend adding any supplements or additives to the diet,
unless you are past the initial introductory phase and there is a real
demonstrated need for it. Salmon or FBO is a commonly added supp, if
you don't or can't, feed grass fed, or free range animals. Adding
supps "just in case" can be a real waste of money.
Training treats can be very simple - at home I use heart or gizzard,
cut into tiny pieces. Dry on a paper towel and keep in fridge. For
away from home, I dehydrate them lightly in a low temp oven on a paper
towel. I use 'blue ice' packs in my treat stash (one of those
"hot/cold" pouches they sell in the grocery store) and transfer a
little at a time to my treat pouch. I teach private and small group
classes, so I do use several other kinds of treats for my clients
dogs, and my own, too. Its a very small part of the diet, I don't
worry about it.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey
> Hello Group,
> This is my first post. I have been reading the daily digests as well
> as some archives for about two weeks now planning my switch to raw.
> My interest in raw has come about due to my older pup, Stanley, a 4
> year old bedlington terrier (18 lbs) having skin allergies.
<snip>
After the second meal my little girl (2 years
> 14lbs) threw up twice. It was the whole portion of the meat that came
> up...also ate a bit of it back up. She is now doing fine.
When
> should I get worried (already am a bit).
> Well that is the bulk of it for now. I really appreciate this list
> and all of the posts I have been able to gaze upon. Thank you in
> advance for your time and help.
> Tia, Stanley and Eloise
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: Adequate variety/How to find spleen?
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:04 pm ((PDT))
Hi Giselle:
Thanks for the suggestions. I've not seen rabbit in the stores
around here, but I will try canned fish for variety. The allergic
dog is allergic to ALL poultry so I stay away from turkey as well as
chicken. Average weight of my guys is over 130 pounds so I think the
chicken or duck feet would be too small. I have tried cow feet
before, they love those. How is spleen sold? I've never seen it,
but perhpas don't know what I'm looking for. Is spleen an organ for
feeding purposes?
Dianne M.
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
items I've found
> at the supermarket for easy variety;
> What about turkey? Rabbit? Fish? Even, maybe, canned?
> Spleen? Chicken or duck feet?
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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10b. Re: Adequate variety/How to find spleen?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:47 pm ((PDT))
Hi, Dianne!
My girl is 130lbs! ; ) She is a careful chewer, tho', so
feet may not be a good choice if your dogs aren't'. I do freeze
several feet in a shallow plastic container and give her a
'feetsickle', great treat when its hot!
Look for ethnic or specialty markets for the more exotic stuff. I've
found spleen, tongue, feet, kidney, liver, fish and more at markets
that cater to the Asian or Hispanic crowd. The labels might not be in
English or familiar terms even if they are, but *shrug* why not a
little adventurous eating? Spleen is often marked "melts". Ethnic
markets often sell pig or goat heads or whole suckling pigs or young
lambs during the summer, too.
Sometimes you can find rabbit and other interesting stuff tucked into
a corner of the frozen section.
Beef or veal heart is often pretty easy to find, too.
Have you tried online? prey4pets, is one, there's others, too.
I forget, did I post Lis' list of creative ways to source meats
before? If not, let me know, and I will.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey
> Hi Giselle:
> Thanks for the suggestions. I've not seen rabbit in the stores
> around here, but I will try canned fish for variety. The allergic
> dog is allergic to ALL poultry so I stay away from turkey as well as
> chicken. Average weight of my guys is over 130 pounds so I think the
> chicken or duck feet would be too small. I have tried cow feet
> before, they love those. How is spleen sold? I've never seen it,
> but perhaps don't know what I'm looking for. Is spleen an organ for
> feeding purposes?
Messages in this topic (6)
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