Feed Pets Raw Food: Nov 13, 2007

Tuesday, November 13, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12275

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Liver
From: Tina Berry

2a. Re: Feeding chicken
From: briargarden07
2b. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Casey Post
2c. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Bumble1994@aol.com
2d. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Yasuko herron

3a. Vomiting Fish
From: jrtsnabc
3b. Re: Vomiting Fish
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Vomiting Fish
From: jrtsnabc
3d. Re: Vomiting Fish
From: Michelle Grabert
3e. Re: Vomiting Fish
From: Yasuko herron

4a. ADMIN: SIGNING AND TRIMMING
From: GWB
4b. Re: ADMIN: SIGNING AND TRIMMING
From: Michelle Grabert

5a. raw fed dogs drink less water??
From: sfed57
5b. Re: raw fed dogs drink less water??
From: Stephanie Sorensen
5c. Re: raw fed dogs drink less water??
From: katkellm

6a. Too much Organ
From: Jennifer
6b. Re: Too much Organ
From: katkellm
6c. Re: Too much Organ
From: Tina Berry

7a. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: becca1066

8a. Re: different proteins
From: costrowski75

9a. ADMIN/Re: I need a new vet!
From: costrowski75

10a. Deer bones
From: amvilppu
10b. Re: Deer bones
From: Tina Berry
10c. Re: Deer bones
From: whirlwind32980

Messages
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1.1. Re: Liver
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

"Weird, I think, but is there a problem with feeding him the liver this way
if this is the only way I can get him to eat it?"

One of my bunch will eat it as long as it's frozen. He must not like the
ewwwww factor LOL.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (98)
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2a. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "briargarden07" briargarden07@yahoo.com briargarden07
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jane Boswell" <famtimes@...>
wrote:
>
> On another list that I'm on, a member posted
> that feeding too much chicken will result in
> a serious dietary deficiency of copper.
> Specifically feeding 50 percent chicken can
> be harmful. Another member talked about
> too much chicken causing seizures.
>
> Has anyone on this list had a similar experience?
>

Its correct that feeding too much chicken will result in dietart
deficiencies, however, thta can be said for ANY meat. It's not a
problem exclusive to overfeeding chicken. I'm actually not sure about
the copper, but I know that if chicken takes up too much of the diet,
the dog is going to have some serious zinc deficiencies, plus an
overabundance of Omega 6. Its a misconception that copper will cause
that reddish tint to a black dog's coat, when in fact that stems from
too much Omega 6 & not enough Omega 3 in the diet.
Chicken will not cause seizures. I have an epileptic dog who
actually does best on chicken muscle meat. Besides stress, his
triggers are mainly food related. While my other dogs do awesome with
lamb, he can only tolerate it in small amounts, hence lamb and other
red meats can be triggers if fed in abundance. He cannot tolerate
pork AT ALL. That doesn't mean raw pork causes seizures. Also keep in
mind that severe dietary deficiency, particulatly, too much
phosphorous or not enough Vit D to absorb the calcium being consumed,
can cause seizures.
I don't freak out over balance the way some homecookers do, but
I also don't ignore it, and do make an effort to balance out the
diet. Chicken is the staple for my dogs, but once I did my research &
learned about the high amounts of Omega 6 in the skin, I started
trimming at least half the fat in addition to adding fish oil. That
really helped improve coat quality. I give beef and other red meat to
most of the dogs whenever possible, and include a good variety in
their menus. If you make an effort to balance the diet and add
variety to balance out the nutrients that chicken is either deficient
in or has too much of, your dogs will be just fine.

Noelle M.

Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:32 am ((PST))

Chicken liver has a fair amount of copper. Not as high as something like
beef liver, of course, but still...

Casey

Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/13/2007 2:19:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, "Tina
Berry" writes:

Here is a good link about copper that says "& chicken are relatively low in
copper but provide a reasonable amount of copper to the body because they
are consumed in significant amounts."

***
And it also says that copper is found in liver and fish--maybe that's one
reason this prey model feeding group considers liver to be essential in a raw
diet. :)

Lynda

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Messages in this topic (8)
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2d. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:52 pm ((PST))

You can go to www.nutritiondata.com and you can check the copper amount in chicken or in liver etc if you wanted to see how much the food has.

yassy

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3a. Vomiting Fish
Posted by: "jrtsnabc" jrtsnabc@yahoo.com jrtsnabc
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:21 am ((PST))

Hi all,

I know there were some posts regarding this subject not too long ago but I couldn't find them in the archives.

I have a dog that every single time she eats fish will vomit anywhere from 6 to 8 hours later. She does not vomit all of her dinner back up but a good portion will come back. Also, she makes not attempt to eat it again nor do any of the others.

In the older posts I say, I think I remember some saying that they also had dogs who consistently vomited up a protein type, fish even.

Should I stop feeding her fish? Is it OK (other than the obvious ick factor) if she vomits some of it back up or is her body trying to tell me that fish just does not agree with her. If it were any other protein source I would simply stop feeding it. However, the fish is her biggest source of Omega-3s. She gets fish capsules (which do stay down), as well.

Thoughts?

TYIA,

Katherine and the JRTs and BC
Nunn, CO

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3b. Re: Vomiting Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:58 pm ((PST))

jrtsnabc <jrtsnabc@...> wrote:
> I have a dog that every single time she eats fish will vomit anywhere
from 6 to 8 hours later. She does not vomit all of her dinner back up
but a good portion will come back. Also, she makes not attempt to eat
it again nor do any of the others.
*****
If it keeps happening, there's little reason to pursue that source of
nutrition. Fish is just not that big a deal. I've had luck backing
off for several months, then trying again; if fish keeps coming back
after a significant hiatus, I'd say bag it and stick to FBO.

However, the fish is her biggest source of Omega-3s. She gets fish
capsules (which do stay down), as well.
*****
Biggest source maybe, but how much O3 is it delivering and how much
fish do you have to feed to achieve that level?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: Vomiting Fish
Posted by: "jrtsnabc" jrtsnabc@yahoo.com jrtsnabc
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

Thanks, Chris. I'll bag the fish and will enjoy the lack of late night fish hurls! :D

Katheirne

Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Vomiting Fish

jrtsnabc <jrtsnabc@.. .> wrote:

> I have a dog that every single time she eats fish will vomit anywhere

from 6 to 8 hours later. She does not vomit all of her dinner back up

but a good portion will come back. Also, she makes not attempt to eat

it again nor do any of the others.

*****

If it keeps happening, there's little reason to pursue that source of

nutrition. Fish is just not that big a deal. I've had luck backing

off for several months, then trying again; if fish keeps coming back

after a significant hiatus, I'd say bag it and stick to FBO.

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Messages in this topic (5)
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3d. Re: Vomiting Fish
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:59 pm ((PST))

what is FBO>? thanks, Michelle

jrtsnabc <jrtsnabc@yahoo.com> wrote: Thanks, Chris. I'll bag the fish and will enjoy the lack of late night fish hurls! :D

Katheirne

Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Vomiting Fish

jrtsnabc <jrtsnabc@.. .> wrote:

> I have a dog that every single time she eats fish will vomit anywhere

from 6 to 8 hours later. She does not vomit all of her dinner back up

but a good portion will come back. Also, she makes not attempt to eat

it again nor do any of the others.

*****

If it keeps happening, there's little reason to pursue that source of

nutrition. Fish is just not that big a deal. I've had luck backing

off for several months, then trying again; if fish keeps coming back

after a significant hiatus, I'd say bag it and stick to FBO.

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3e. Re: Vomiting Fish
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:12 pm ((PST))

>what is FBO>?

Fish Body Oil.

That is good one to add to meal to add up omega 3,and it is commonly made from oil from sardine,herring,anchovi etc.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. ADMIN: SIGNING AND TRIMMING
Posted by: "GWB" chiksika@comcast.net kioqua
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:24 am ((PST))

The moderation team is SHORTHANDED right now so those who don't sign,
trim or both their mails will find them disappear/deleted without
prejudice.

Gerry Brierley-mod guy

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: ADMIN: SIGNING AND TRIMMING
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:28 pm ((PST))

I don' know how to trim a post~~ michelle

GWB <chiksika@comcast.net> wrote: The moderation team is SHORTHANDED right now so those who don't sign,
trim or both their mails will find them disappear/deleted without
prejudice.

Gerry Brierley-mod guy

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5a. raw fed dogs drink less water??
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:28 am ((PST))

Hi all, I have noticed that my two siberians drink way less water now
that they are raw fed. I'm not concerned, just wondering if this is
common. Maybe it has to do with it being winter now as well (not so
hot outside). I'd imagine now with a better diet they wouldnt need as
much though, any thoughts???

Thanks, Shawna

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: raw fed dogs drink less water??
Posted by: "Stephanie Sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:27 pm ((PST))

I think it has to do with the higher water content in raw meat than in ki**le. I actually have to be careful not to let the water sit too long, or it gets a funky film on it! I think they drink a lot of water on a ki**le diet because they need to aid the passing of all of that undigestible junk they're being fed!

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

sfed57 <sfed57@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Hi all, I have noticed that my two siberians drink way less water now
that they are raw fed. I'm not concerned, just wondering if this is
common. Maybe it has to do with it being winter now as well (not so
hot outside). I'd imagine now with a better diet they wouldnt need as
much though, any thoughts???

Thanks, Shawna

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5c. Re: raw fed dogs drink less water??
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:28 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sfed57" <sfed57@...> wrote:
>
> I have noticed that my two siberians drink way less water now
> that they are raw fed.

Hi Shawna,
Raw fed dogs do drink less water than kibble fed dogs because raw meat
has a high moisture content. Also, kibble acts like a sponge when it
digests and actually absorbs water from the system. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Too much Organ
Posted by: "Jennifer" kali_moonwolf@yahoo.com kali_moonwolf
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:41 am ((PST))

Hi! I was wondering if there's a way to know if I feed too much organ.
Im pretty good about mixing it up with chicken, and beef (raw), but I
scored a couple HUGE beef hearts that I cut up, and don't know how to
portion it out, so is there a way to know if Im feeding too much organ?
-Jennifer (and Tikahni)

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Too much Organ
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:27 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer" <kali_moonwolf@...> wrote:
>
> .... but I
> scored a couple HUGE beef hearts that I cut up, and don't know how to
> portion it out, so is there a way to know if Im feeding too much organ?

Hi Jennifer,
Heart is fed as a muscle meat and not as an organ, so you can feed
heart to bowel tolerance. I feed all heart meals after i feed
something a little on the bony side. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Too much Organ
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:27 pm ((PST))

"HUGE beef hearts that I cut up, and don't know how to portion it out"

Heart is considered a muscle meat, even tho it's an organ - you can feed it
like red meat. Liver is the only organ you can get too much of because if
the vitamin A and D. I feed around a lb a liver a week a piece to my
bunch. Sometimes more if I have it. Sometimes they go months without it.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:43 pm ((PST))

"Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> Caren OConnor <cavkist@> wrote:
>
> > When I feed whole prey, exclusively rabbit to date, my dog always
> > goes for the head first and consumes the prey in that direction,
> > head, then body. Everything I ever read about animals taking
down
> > prey said that the animal goes for the gut and intestines first.
>
> I think the observation about eating the gut first usually refers
to
> large prey like deer and such.
*****
The assumption would still be incorrect.
While wolves may well go in through the underbelly, because of its
thinner skin and relative ease of access, they do not notably go for
the gut and intestines. Certainly the stomach is not an eagerly
sought-after body part; intestines as well do not provide the
nutrition of heart and liver and flesh. I believe somewhere along
the line Dr. Mech made a comment that undereducated observers tend to
confuse the "stomach" with the "belly".

And yes, small game may or may not offer up the stomach and
intestines. Whatever is quickest to consume gets consumed.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (26)
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7b. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "becca1066" becca1066@yahoo.com becca1066
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:21 pm ((PST))

years ago I had a ferret who only ate the head & forequarters of her
mice-we thought maybe she was kosher?
becca

Messages in this topic (26)
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8a. Re: different proteins
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:52 pm ((PST))

"krystal_brr" <rkbarr@...> wrote:
>
> I understand the concept of introducing a new protein gradually, but
> what if you introduce a protein but then can't get it again for like
6-
> 9 months?
*****
Don't invent problems where there are none! Feed what's available when
it's available and if it's not find something else to offer. If you
only get lamb a couple months out of the year, oh well. Many venison-
feeders can't access it year-round; they feed it when it's available
and if their dogs need a bit of reintroduction each time, fine.

Seasonal availability is common for both wild wolves and our domestic
ones.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. ADMIN/Re: I need a new vet!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:06 pm ((PST))

Please take this discussion to RawChat or DogHealth. While vet
recommendations are not necessarily OT for the Rawfeeding list,
conversations about medical treatment (allopathic or alternative)
generally are. On Rawfeeding, this threat is closed.
Thank you.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (3)
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10a. Deer bones
Posted by: "amvilppu" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:12 pm ((PST))

Hi all-

I am going to pick up some deer trimmings and organs from a local hunter/butcher. He also
has a lot of bones left over. Are there any deer bones that are not tooth breakers? I have
never fed them so I am unsure.
Thanks for the info-

Annaliisa, Drew, and Boxer pup Laila

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Deer bones
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

"Are there any deer bones that are not tooth breakers? I have never fed them
so I am unsure."

I feed all deer bones except the leg & knuckle bones. If they have lots of
meat on them, I let them chew til the meat is gone then pick up the bones.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Deer bones
Posted by: "whirlwind32980" whirlwind32980@yahoo.com whirlwind32980
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:36 pm ((PST))

Hiya i have been feeding a raw diet to my dogs now for about 6 1/2
years. They adore venison. The only bone i tend not to give them is
the thigh bone, they are both large dogs but they do struggle with
these. Does tend to be more tender than stags, and if from a butcher
the deer are usually quite young so again the bones are slightly
softer. Their favourite is the neck and ribs.
x Tracey

Messages in this topic (3)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12274

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: Caren OConnor
1c. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: Caren OConnor
1d. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: Tina Berry

2.1. Liver
From: Jenn
2.2. Re: Liver
From: cynthia iparraguirre
2.3. Re: Liver
From: jennifer_hell
2.4. Re: Liver
From: Stephanie Sorensen
2.5. Re: Liver
From: Caren OConnor
2.6. Re: Liver
From: jenvandecar

3a. Feeding Chihuahuas
From: starcos
3b. Re: Feeding Chihuahuas
From: Marguerite
3c. Re: Feeding Chihuahuas
From: auntigeri@aol.com

4a. Re: I need a new vet!
From: Nora Lenz
4b. Re: I need a new vet!
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Feeding chicken
From: Jane Boswell
5b. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Geri
5c. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Tina Berry
5d. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Tina Berry

6a. Re: I need a new vet!!
From: Christine
6b. Re: I need a new vet!!
From: D. Rajska
6c. Re: I need a new vet!!
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Meat and bone grinder
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

8. different proteins
From: krystal_brr

9. Vet and Raw
From: MORGAN LEWIS

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:48 am ((PST))

Caren OConnor <cavkist@...> wrote:

> When I feed whole prey, exclusively rabbit to date, my dog always
> goes for the head first and consumes the prey in that direction,
> head, then body. Everything I ever read about animals taking down
> prey said that the animal goes for the gut and intestines first.

I think the observation about eating the gut first usually refers to
large prey like deer and such. Rabbits are pretty bite sized in
comparison, so it's probably easier to start with one end and work the
way down.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (24)
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1b. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

Yassy -
Interesting . . . personal preference. And all the while I thought he was just a pretty face with a "box full of rocks" for a brain:)
Caren O'Connor

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
> My question, Why does my boy always start at the head and eat that first?

Maybe personal preference??

My dog tend to start meal from organs though..

yassy

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1c. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

Christy -
LOL! Maybe he also doesn't want to look at that little tongue sticking out of that little mouth!!!
How interesting that your girl wants her whole prey "neat." Of course, with my boy, he just wants to eat the whole thing:)
And, yes, I agree about the neighbors' jaws waggin'. Let them think as they will as they poison their pets with "doom nuggets!"
Thanks for the chuckle!
Caren

christyb14 <christyb@cox.net> wrote:
Hi Caren,

Maybe they don't want to be stared at while they are eating?!

The only thing I can feed whole is rabbit as well. Sometimes Lola starts at the bum and
other times she eats the head first - she has never opened it up at the belly, when she
does go for the intestines first it is through the bum.

The only consistent thing with regard to eating whole rabbit with her is she "skins" it - she
will eat everything but the fur (usually with three paws still attached) and it is turned
inside out.

It's very odd as it is perfectly done - you could stuff it, of course you would have a stuffed
headless rabbit sans one paw but still it's quite professional.

She always finishes the "skinned" part on the last day - it takes her from 2-3 days to eat
rabbit depending on their size. When I feed rabbit I fear a neighbor showing up and oh
how quickly the rumors would fly!!

Thanks,
Christy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Caren OConnor <cavkist@...> wrote:

> When I feed whole prey, exclusively rabbit to date, my dog always goes for the head
first and consumes the prey in that direction, head, then body. Everything I ever read
about animals taking down prey said that the animal goes for the gut and intestines first.
My question, Why does my boy always start at the head and eat that first? Caren O'Connor

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Messages in this topic (24)
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1d. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:43 am ((PST))

"Why does my boy always start at the head and eat that first?"

My prev gsd (bad girl) got my roommates bunny to hop out of it's cage - she
couldn't get inside the cage but she must have gotten the door open....
anyway, I found the bunny in the yard - only the head was missing...

oh, and I had to tell my roommate he must have gotten out and hopped
away....
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (24)
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2.1. Liver
Posted by: "Jenn" jennswisher@gmail.com jennswisher
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:20 am ((PST))

Hello!
The only way I can get my Coonhound to eat liver is to cook it. He
won't touch it raw, beef or chicken liver. I have tried pan searing,
but he still won't eat it. However, if I boil it, he goes crazy for it.
Weird, I think, but is there a problem with feeding him the liver this
way if this is the only way I can get him to eat it?
Thanks!
Jennifer

Messages in this topic (97)
________________________________________________________________________

2.2. Re: Liver
Posted by: "cynthia iparraguirre" cyn7711@yahoo.com cyn7711
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

Have you tried feeding it while it is still frozen? I had the same issue w/my Lab but for what ever reason she does not seem to have a problem w/it when its frozen.

Cyn

Follow This Link to visit my personal web page and help me in my efforts to support Autism Speaks.

----- Original Message ----
From: Jenn <jennswisher@gmail.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 7:19:01 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Liver

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Messages in this topic (97)
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2.3. Re: Liver
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jenn" <jennswisher@...> wrote:

> Weird, I think, but is there a problem with feeding him the liver this
> way if this is the only way I can get him to eat it?

Have you tried cutting it in small pieces and mix it with parmesan or
green tripe?
My girl hates glibbery slimy stuff. It's really hard to get her to eat
it. Heart and liver only cut into small pieces and mixed with grated
parmesan.

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (97)
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2.4. Re: Liver
Posted by: "Stephanie Sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

The nutritional value is sapped from it by cooking it - raw is definitely better!

My lab hates liver too, but here's how I got around it: I got some ground venison (ground beef works too, and I hear that green tripe is also a major winner here), mixed it with small slivers of raw beef liver and an egg (shell and all).

She gobbles it all up every time! Just try mixing it with something he loves and chances are he'll inhale it without even knowing it!

Good luck!

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy, and Minkey (the kitty)

Jenn <jennswisher@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello!
The only way I can get my Coonhound to eat liver is to cook it. He
won't touch it raw, beef or chicken liver. I have tried pan searing,
but he still won't eat it. However, if I boil it, he goes crazy for it.
Weird, I think, but is there a problem with feeding him the liver this
way if this is the only way I can get him to eat it?
Thanks!
Jennifer

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (97)
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2.5. Re: Liver
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

Jennifer -
I've only been feeding whole prey raw for about three years so I'm no expert but . . .
It's my understanding that liver is such an important part of the diet that whatever one has to do to get their dog(s) to eat, is acceptable. My Cavaliers are not into the texture of calves liver so I must sear it first. Now chicken and duck livers, they'll eat raw but calves liver - NO WAY!
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

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Messages in this topic (97)
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2.6. Re: Liver
Posted by: "jenvandecar" jenvandecar@hotmail.com jenvandecar
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:43 am ((PST))

Hi. I don't know much about whether or not cooked liver loses its
nutrients, but have you tried to feed small amounts of it frozen?
That's how I feed it to my girls and they seem to like it that way. A
friend of mine says this is the only way her dogs will eat raw liver.
I do it for more of a convenience factor as a forget to thaw the small
amount of liver I feed and then they don't eat enough organs. Hope
this helps. I may not be much of a help with picky eaters because I
have chow hounds! LOL

Jennifer

> The only way I can get my Coonhound to eat liver is to cook it. He
> won't touch it raw, beef or chicken liver. I have tried pan searing,
> but he still won't eat it. However, if I boil it, he goes crazy for
it.
> Weird, I think, but is there a problem with feeding him the liver
this
> way if this is the only way I can get him to eat it?
> Thanks!
> Jennifer
>

Messages in this topic (97)
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3a. Feeding Chihuahuas
Posted by: "starcos" sistergoldenhair3034@msn.com starcos
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:57 am ((PST))

Hi everyone,
Chihuahua owners, need some ideas on what meat and bones you are
feeding your chis. I am feeding chicken necks, wings, turkey but have
to smash the bones a little besides the organ meats and some of the
ground up meats. Have some other suggestions? By the way, I love
this group and am very excited about your responses!

Estella

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Feeding Chihuahuas
Posted by: "Marguerite" semitruestory@gmail.com margo532001
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

Cornish hens are a good choice, if you can find them on sale. They have real
soft bones. My little Yorkie loves them, but there is nothing she won't eat,
so far.
Marguerite

On 11/13/07, starcos <sistergoldenhair3034@msn.com> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
> Chihuahua owners, need some ideas on what meat and bones you are
> feeding your chis. I am feeding chicken necks, wings, turkey but have
> to smash the bones a little besides the organ meats and some of the
> ground up meats. Have some other suggestions? By the way, I love
> this group and am very excited about your responses!
>
> Estella
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Feeding Chihuahuas
Posted by: "auntigeri@aol.com" auntigeri@aol.com gericolloton
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:43 am ((PST))

Hi Estella

I have a chi and she eats chicken (every part of the chicken), pork but just the meat I have not given her pork bones, and beef (also just the meat not the bones of the beef) and some organs.? She is relatively new to raw -- so in time I will increase the variety of what she gets.

Geri

-----Original Message-----
From: starcos <sistergoldenhair3034@msn.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 9:30 am
Subject: [rawfeeding] Feeding Chihuahuas

need some ideas on what meat and bones you are
feeding your chis.

Estella

________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: I need a new vet!
Posted by: "Nora Lenz" nmlenz@speakeasy.net rawnora
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

Hungrymoses,
Imo, you don't need a vet at all. Since I started applying the "removal of cause" principle to my
own dog's symptoms, he has not visited a vet in 12 years. I have cared for other people's animals
for 20 years and without fail it is always the ones who belong to vets, doctors, dentists and others
who live by the medical paradigm that are the sickest.

Take full charge of and full responsibility for the health of your animals. When there is a
symptom, remove the cause. Since the cause of disease in humans and animals is typically dietary in
origin, tweak the diet. Fast the animal until symptoms improve or abate, and feed lightly to break
the fast. If you don't know about fasting, learn -- there are wonderful books like "Fasting Can
Save Your Life" by Herbert Shelton. Fasting is nature's healing miracle, and as far as I've been
able to determine, it is not being applied to the care of sick companion animals, to their peril.

Follow nature's model. If you're already doing that to the extent that you're feeding raw and vets
are telling you you're crazy, doesn't that tell you something? They think nature is crazy. The
fact is, vets are the ones who are crazy. They are taught how to suppress symptoms with drugs and
herbal remedies (because this is what serves their industry), and they know literally nothing about
what it takes to create health.

I know it can be scary if you're used to depending on medical professionals for the care of your
animals, but if you educate yourself about the causes of health you can build the confidence it
takes to get them out of your life completely. Your animals will only be healthier for it.

Best wishes,
Nora

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: I need a new vet!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:16 am ((PST))

While I totally agree we need to take responsibility for the health of our
animals, disease is not caused by diet alone, and fasting is *not* a miracle
cure! It may have it's place when there is a digestive upset, but that's
about it!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@speakeasy.net>
>
> Take full charge of and full responsibility for the health of your
animals. When there is a
> symptom, remove the cause. Since the cause of disease in humans and
animals is typically dietary in
> origin, tweak the diet. Fast the animal until symptoms improve or abate,
and feed lightly to break
> the fast. If you don't know about fasting, learn -- there are wonderful
books like "Fasting Can
> Save Your Life" by Herbert Shelton. Fasting is nature's healing miracle,
and as far as I've been
> able to determine, it is not being applied to the care of sick companion
animals, to their peril.

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Jane Boswell" famtimes@blazenetme.net famtimes2001
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

On another list that I'm on, a member posted
that feeding too much chicken will result in
a serious dietary deficiency of copper.
Specifically feeding 50 percent chicken can
be harmful. Another member talked about
too much chicken causing seizures.

Has anyone on this list had a similar experience?

Although chicken and turkey are staples in our
diet, my dogs do get beef, pork, venison, fish,
organs, etc. I also use an organic vitamin/mineral
supplement and fish oil.

If anyone has information on feeding chicken
and its risks, I would be interested to know more.

Thanks,

Jane Boswell

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Geri" auntigeri@aol.com gericolloton
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

I would be interested to know more about this too.

Geri

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jane Boswell" <famtimes@...> wrote:
>
> On another list that I'm on, a member posted
> that feeding too much chicken will result in
> a serious dietary deficiency of copper.
> Specifically feeding 50 percent chicken can
> be harmful. Another member talked about
> too much chicken causing seizures.
> >
> If anyone has information on feeding chicken
> and its risks, I would be interested to know more.
>
>
> Jane Boswell
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

"On another list that I'm on, a member posted that feeding too much chicken
will result in a serious dietary deficiency of copper. Specifically feeding
50 percent chicken can be harmful. Another member talked about
too much chicken causing seizures."

When I started feeding raw 3yrs ago, mine got 50% whole chickens and 50%
beef heart for about 2 yrs, and liver once a week. Didn't experience any
issues whatsoever, blood tests were always normal. This is the first I've
heard this about chicken - this summer my bunch ate 100% chicken/turkey as
that's what I had available.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

Here is a good link about copper that says "& chicken are relatively low in
copper but provide a reasonable amount of copper to the body because they
are consumed in significant amounts."

http://www.copperinfo.com/health/goodhealth.html
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: I need a new vet!!
Posted by: "Christine" chrizk20@yahoo.com chrizk20
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hungrymoses" <hungrymoses@...>
wrote:
>
> MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
> Is there anyone out there who can recommend a vet in the Montreal area
> that won't tell me what an idiot I am for feeding my dog a raw diet?
> I've already been to three that have warned me of the horrible danger
> I'm putting my dog in. Please help...
>

Why even bother telling a vet? The vet doesnt need to know, they aren't
nutritionist.
I havent taken my dogs to a vet in over a year now and if i needed to,
its none of their buisness. I know that RAW food for my dogs is the
best and whatever crap in the bag that they want to try to promote wont
get me to buy it!

Christine K.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: I need a new vet!!
Posted by: "D. Rajska" d.rajska@gmail.com deerajska
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:43 am ((PST))

Hey,

I wish I could recommend a vet... I live in Hamilton, and the situation here
is the same - all the vets are anti-raw. So - for Frankie's first vet
appointment today, I took a page from my sister's book and flat-out lied.
Obviously it would be wonderful if we all could have vets who we could be
totally honest with, and I am concerned about the quality of overall care
that my pet will receive if his human and his vet cannot communicate openly
and be on the same page.... But if that's not an option, take a half hour to
go to a high-end pet shop, stare at the kibbles, and pick one that's really
high-end that you can lie convincingly about. My choice for "pretend food"
is Orijen - because it's grain-free, so I can object to any crap-in-a-bag
that my vet might want to give him as treats because I can admit to being
anti-grain and still have her respect me somewhat.

I also told her I can't put his on flea poison because I'm allergic to every
cleaning product out there and I'm afraid *I* would not be able to tolerate
the flea treatment - which is a bit of an elaboration/contortion of the
truth, but again, lie convincingly, and no one will know....

It's a shitty compromise, but it's better than going from vet to vet to vet
and getting into a shouting match with a moron whom you're paying for their
time. Plus the tension can't be good for your pet either.
Best of luck....

Dee & Frankie.

On Nov 13, 2007 9:24 AM, hungrymoses <hungrymoses@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Is there anyone out there who can recommend a vet in the Montreal area
> that won't tell me what an idiot I am for feeding my dog a raw diet?
> .
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: I need a new vet!!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

Don't tell them. Vets are not nutritionists and you certainly don't need
their approval for your choice of food!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "hungrymoses" <hungrymoses@yahoo.com>

Is there anyone out there who can recommend a vet in the Montreal area
that won't tell me what an idiot I am for feeding my dog a raw diet?
I've already been to three that have warned me of the horrible danger
I'm putting my dog in. Please help...

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Meat and bone grinder
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

In a message dated 11/13/2007 7:11:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, "starcos"
writes:

I have a chihuahua and find that the bones
and meat need to be grounded.

Hi, Estella,

Have more faith in your pup!

I have what used to be a 6 lb. cat (now 8 pounds) and over time, have found
that she is perfectly capable of and happy to (sings while doing it) grind her
own meat and bones--chicken, rabbit, and fish bones being at the top of her
list, and she also eats her way through just the meat parts of beef and port.
Lamb bones are iffy... She gnaws but can't really eat them. My other 2 cats
(that used to be 8 pounders--now 10) had pieces of lamb chop for supper last
night and did away with almost all the bone, too.

Lynda

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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8. different proteins
Posted by: "krystal_brr" rkbarr@hughes.net krystal_brr
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:18 am ((PST))

I understand the concept of introducing a new protein gradually, but
what if you introduce a protein but then can't get it again for like 6-
9 months?

I am thinking of lamb, which I don't buy but I know someone who will
give me scraps very occasionally. If I introduce it once is that good
or do I need to treat it like a new protein source if it has been
months since the dogs have had it?

Thanks
Krystal

Messages in this topic (1)
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9. Vet and Raw
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

I first went to RAW 3 1/2 years ago. The PF group said the first thing you do id change their diet, no corn or parly, no soy. Many cook their food. Weel after checking all the packaging, I said what the hell. These are wolves, let them eat like Wolves. So I changed diets and never said a word to Vet. One year latter time for annual checkup for pup and took mom in also. Now she had always had tarter buildup, and yucky ears. Checked the pup, every thing fine, then mom, he looked her over - no PF, no Tarter, no yucky ears, no intestinal parasites of any sort. He looked at me and stated "You went RAW, didn't you?"

2 years later pup checked for Thyroid, Cardiac, Hips and Elbows (OFA CERTIFICATION) on ALL. Did the RAW diet do all of this, I don't know, but I'm damn glad I changed. And neither dog has had tarter in 3 1/2 years. (maybe this is one of the reasons your Vet does not like RAW, MOney out of his pocket) Morgan

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12273

There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. I need a new vet!!
From: hungrymoses

Message
________________________________________________________________________

1. I need a new vet!!
Posted by: "hungrymoses" hungrymoses@yahoo.com hungrymoses
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:34 am ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12272

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: FW: New to the list- and question PLEASE
From: Casey Post
1b. FW: New to the list- and question PLEASE
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

2a. Re: FW: [rawcat] Re: bones
From: Casey Post

3a. Re: Lamb Head Question
From: Casey Post
3b. Re: Lamb Head Question
From: christyb14

4a. Re: Update on Frankie!
From: Laurie Swanson
4b. Re: Update on Frankie!
From: costrowski75

5. Update on Bella the Picky Pregger.
From: Renate

6a. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: Yasuko herron
6b. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: chandler_baby
6c. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: christyb14

7a. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
From: Evie
7b. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
From: connie
7c. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
From: Sandee Lee
7d. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
From: costrowski75

8a. Meat and bone grinder
From: starcos
8b. Re: Meat and bone grinder
From: Giselle
8c. Re: Meat and bone grinder
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Dog breed abbreviations
From: costrowski75

10a. Complicated meals and furred animals
From: jenvandecar
10b. Re: Complicated meals and furred animals
From: christyb14
10c. Re: Complicated meals and furred animals
From: carnesbill

11a. ADMIN/Re: Dog breed abbreviations
From: costrowski75

12. Re: whole raw feeders
From: Michael Moore

13. Heartburn (?)
From: jennifer_hell

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: FW: New to the list- and question PLEASE
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:13 pm ((PST))

> Hi- I am a Maine coon breeder who has been raw feeding..is that the polite
> way to say?.

Very correct!

>Now I see that it would be more beneficial
> and also help with the dental disease that I am seeing, if I just whack
> some
> chicken bones with meat still attached ie chicken necks.. thighs or turkey
> necks... back bones of raw turkey etc...!!

Well, I don't know many cats that would go for a turkey back, but I suppose
they may be out there! Yes, you're correct that whole foods are the KEY to
proper dental/oral health.

>You guys don't put anything else
> in your diets? No taurine Omega 3's etc?

Taurine is present in all raw meats to some extent...generally more taurine
in muscles that get more use, so chicken hearts (used all the time) have
much more taurine than chicken breasts (not a lot of flying going on for
chickens). As long as you provide a variety of meats, your taurine bases
will be covered just fine.

Omega 3's may be another matter. If you can provide pastured/wild meats,
they will be naturally high in omega 3's. If you can provide high omega 3
fish like wild salmon, herring, mackeral, and sardines, then you're
providing lots of dietary omega 3's. If you're feeding grocery store meats
exclusively, you may be wanting to look at supplementing with omega 3's from
a nice salmon or fish body oil source.

If you don't want to wade through all the dog-related posts, please feel
free to join the sister list rawcat at

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/.

All cats all the time!

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. FW: New to the list- and question PLEASE
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:00 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/12/2007 6:42:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com writes:

No taurine Omega 3's etc?

***
Hi, Alex,

No, no taurine or etc needs to be added, but my cats get a half pump of fish
oil on their meat for the Omega 3's, since I'm feeding regular grocery store
meat, which hasn't been grass fed so is lacking in what they need.

I do feed some fish (great source of easily consumed bone) but am afraid to
feed it more than once a week because of the pollutants, and I don't think
that's enough for the Omegas. You don't need to add taurine because all meat has
that in it, some more than others, and more in raw because cooking reduces
the taurine.

Here's a website where you can look up practically everything that's in
practically any sort of meat:

_http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/_

(http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/)

Lynda

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: FW: [rawcat] Re: bones
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:21 pm ((PST))

> Ok so skin and all? On the chicken say?

Sure! If it's part of the animal, it's part of the diet.

>>Now no feathers?

If you can get them with feathers, that's great! Might be a bit messy to
feed and you'll have some feather clean up when they're done (larger
feathers often don't get eaten), but it's all good.

>>Or do you guys just
> get the whole bird and cur up chunks with the skina and all? Should I not
> be
> concerned that some of my little ones might not be able to chew up the
> tough
> skin?

They may surprise you! But if they have trouble in the early days, don't be
shy about helping them out - if you partially freeze the chicken, the skin
is much easier to score up with a knife. Or you can use scissors to cut it
smaller for them.

>And you give raw pork ribs? Man that would be the one thing that
> I have programmed to worry about????

What - pork? Why does pork worry you?

Casey

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3a. Re: Lamb Head Question
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:26 pm ((PST))

> One piece that I have not gotten to yet is the head and I fear that
> it is unshorn - it is one thing to be pulling off the skin on a slab
> of meat quite another to pulling if off when the poor thing is
> staring back at me, I don't think I can do it to be honest.

Christy,

I've done the "hairy sheep heads" thing and yeah, all that wool did concern
me because the dogs who were destined to eat this wonderful find (my
neighbor's dogs - it was a Christmas surprise!) were not experienced raw
eaters.

So what I did is get a sharp pair of scissors and give the heads a haircut.
I swear, if you told me ten years ago that I'd be doing that with sheep
heads, I would have called you a liar...

Just drape a paper towel or something over the face part and trim away.
Sing a little haircutting song as you go and pretend that what you're doing
is a completely normal thing and it'll go fine...

Good luck.

Casey

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3b. Re: Lamb Head Question
Posted by: "christyb14" christyb@cox.net christyb14
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:55 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

Hi Casey,

So a little should be fine...

I will feed organs the next meals too to help move things along just in case.

I can't imagine that I will be giving the poor thing a haircut but the poor thing was so
dang expensive I hate to waste it! Good advice about covering the eyes. I imagine that
my eyes will be blurry from the tears so that will make it even more difficult to see!!

Thanks,
Christy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Casey Post" <mikken@...> wrote:
>
> > One piece that I have not gotten to yet is the head and I fear that it is unshorn - it is
one thing to be pulling off the skin on a slab of meat quite another to pulling if off when
the poor thing is staring back at me, I don't think I can do it to be honest. Christy,
>

> So what I did is get a sharp pair of scissors and give the heads a haircut. Just drape a
paper towel or something over the face part and trim away. Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Update on Frankie!
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:34 pm ((PST))

So cute! It's fun to have these stories once in awhile! Oh, for the
puppy days... :-)

Thanks,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "deerajska" <d.rajska@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> My 7.5 week-old Cairn/Westie terrier pup, Frankie, has been home
since
> Friday, and since so many of you here on the list were so wonderfully
> supportive in helping me prepare for his arrival - I thought I'd post
a
> message to let you all know how he's doing...
>
> In a word: wonderfully!!!
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Update on Frankie!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:41 pm ((PST))

cspisto@... wrote:
>> I have 2, 6-year-old Goldens now transitioning from conventional
commercial food to Bones and Raw Food.? Where did you find/purchase
digestive enzymes and what do I look for when buying?
*****
Why are you transitioning your goldens to raw? Are they ill? Is
there a physical reason why you cannot toss the kibble and start
feeding real food? If there are issues, perhaps we can help you with
them. The longer you lollygag, the worse it is for your lovely
goldens.

You do not have to use digestive enzymes and I venture to guess that
Frankie doesn't need them either. In any case, digestive enzymes are
best used when there's a clear need for them: moving a dog to raw by
itself is not reason enough.

Chris O
(Please remember to trim your posts! There is no need to send back
the entire original message.)

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5. Update on Bella the Picky Pregger.
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:34 pm ((PST))

Just wanted to let you all know that even though Bella wouldn't eat
anything but kidney and heart, she delivered a nice litter. 4 babies
over 170g and a tiny runt that died in spite of all my efforts that
had a birth weight of just under 90g. The other 4 are growing like
crazy and for a first time shih tzu mum, she is doing just wonderful.
So all my concerns were needless. She knew what she wanted. the
babies are gaining upwards of 15g a day, which is great. And she is
super-excited about the whole thing.

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:34 pm ((PST))

> My question, Why does my boy always start at the head and eat that first?

Maybe personal preference??

My dog tend to start meal from organs though..

yassy

---------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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6b. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "chandler_baby" chandler_baby@yahoo.com chandler_baby
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:17 pm ((PST))

> Why does my boy always start at the head and eat that first?
>
>
Caren, I don't know but my Mini Doxie starts head first as well, same
with my Golden. however, my Eng Setter starts with the gut. I guess it
is what they like.

Roxane

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6c. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "christyb14" christyb@cox.net christyb14
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:53 pm ((PST))

Hi Caren,

Maybe they don't want to be stared at while they are eating?!

The only consistent thing with regard to eating whole rabbit with her is she "skins" it - she
will eat everything but the fur (usually with three paws still attached) and it is turned
inside out.

It's very odd as it is perfectly done - you could stuff it, of course you would have a stuffed
headless rabbit sans one paw but still it's quite professional.

Thanks,
Christy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Caren OConnor <cavkist@...> wrote:

Messages in this topic (20)
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7a. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
Posted by: "Evie" archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk archie.willow
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

Many thanks for the help guys. :o)
I've bookmarked those sites for future reference.

Evie

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7b. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "spricketysprock"
> <jess.hamway@> wrote:
> >
> > Dehydrated meat is used in
> > kibble, which is actually extremely high in protein because all the
> > water is taken out. This is termed meat meal ...

Hey Jess,
Have you checked out this website?? It explains it the best as to what
is really in dry ki**le from beginning to end.
http://www.api4animals.org/facts.php?p=359&more=1

~connie~
and a bunch of bullies
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (20)
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7c. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:55 pm ((PST))

There are so many misconceptions about feeding a raw diet, as you have found
out! :) For some reason it is thought of as an all meat diet and 100%
protein diet....and people have a fear of protein because they have been
told it causes fast growth (and thus bone growth issues in puppies) and is
harmful to the kidneys. Of course none of that is true, but you won't hear
that very many places!! LOL

Anyway, a raw diet is not just meat, but includes skin, bone, joints,
tendons, ligaments, connective tissue, cartilage, etc....

so it is not only protein, but also fat, fiber, moisture and all of the
necessary vitamins and minerals in bioavailable form (unlike the synthetic
nutrients that have to be added to cooked diets).

I'm not sure why anyone chooses to feed cooked over raw but would imagine
fear of bacteria and bones are right up there! Oh, it's that fear thing
again,huh?? :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Evie" <archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk>

I'm on a general dog website and want evidence to
show that meat is not 100% protein as a few of the members there are
insisting it is. (Doing my best to spread the word!) They are mostly
homecooked diet feeders aware of the evils of kibble.

Messages in this topic (20)
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7d. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:35 pm ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> Meat meal used in kibble is not dehydrated meat. Meat meal is what
> is left of the carcass after human useable meat has been removed.
> It is made up mostly of bone, heads, feet, etc. It is the refuse
> from the human food processing plants.
*****
That stuff is the by-products. Meat meal has its own definition.
Chicken meal is the parts of chicken that are not heads, feet and
intestines: primarly the same chicken parts we can eat. I assume beef
meal has the same meaning.

If anyone is keen to "understand" dogfood terminology, the AAFCO
guidelines are more than adequate for the job. There are very few
terms that are not defined down to the last word. We do not need to
worry about the definitions on this list and it would be inappropriate
to continue in this vein.
Chris O
Moderation Team

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8a. Meat and bone grinder
Posted by: "starcos" sistergoldenhair3034@msn.com starcos
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:49 pm ((PST))

HI! Has anyone recently purchased a meat grinder? I am considering
buying one but have not come across one whose description indicates
that it also grinds bones. I have a chihuahua and find that the bones
and meat need to be grounded. Please let me know if anyone has one
that does both meat and bone and if you have any suggestions where I
may buy one. By the way, I found one online that is 600 watt and
thought that it may be powerful enough to grind bone as well. Any
suggestions would be appreciated.

Estella

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Meat and bone grinder
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:49 pm ((PST))

Hi, Estella!
None of the grinders that are sold to consumers are rated or
sold for grinding bone, tmk.
I have a really heavy duty one - used it once, LOL.

What you want are soft, easily edible bones, and just a small amount of
them.

The amount recommended in a species appropriate raw whole prey model diet is
only about 10% of the ENTIRE diet. In other words, if a dog were to consume
10 lbs of raw in a week, only 1 lb would need to be edible bone.

So, say your dog weighs 5 lbs. At 3% of his ideal adult body weight, he
would need 2.4 ounces of raw a DAY.
10% of edible bone for a day would be only 0.24 TENTHS of an ounce a day.
Thats not much, and even if you doubled or tripled that figure, it could be
met by eating gristle/cartilage and the very soft ends of some bones.

Another amount recommended would be 10% organs - that's 3-5% liver and 5-7%
'other' - spleen, kidney, sweetbreads, etc.

The last amount recommended would be 80% MEAT - that' muscle, fat, skin,
connective tissue, such as tendons, feathers, fur, etc. and any organ fed as
meatymeat, such as heart, tongue, gizzards, tripe, lungs, etc.

You could feed Game Hens, which are just chickens, slaughtered at a younger
age - the bones are very soft. You could also feed rabbits, mice, hamsters,
quail, smelts, sardines, etc. All would be completely edible, fur, bones,
skin, scales and all, and your dog would get the ALL the benefits from prey
model raw.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 12, 2007 9:44 PM, starcos <sistergoldenhair3034@msn.com> wrote:

> HI! Has anyone recently purchased a meat grinder? I am considering
> buying one but have not come across one whose description indicates
> that it also grinds bones. I have a chihuahua and find that the bones
> and meat need to be ground. Please let me know if anyone has one
> that does both meat and bone and if you have any suggestions where I
> may buy one. By the way, I found one online that is 600 watt and
> thought that it may be powerful enough to grind bone as well. Any
> suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Estella
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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8c. Re: Meat and bone grinder
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:50 pm ((PST))

"starcos" <sistergoldenhair3034@...> wrote:
>
> HI! Has anyone recently purchased a meat grinder? I am considering
> buying one but have not come across one whose description indicates
> that it also grinds bones. I have a chihuahua and find that the
bones
> and meat need to be grounded.
*****
Why does your Chi need his food ground up? What are you feeding him?
What are you trying to feed them? There is no reason to grind food
for a healthy Chi and in the case of an unhealthy Chi, there are
usually whole, unground meats and bones that are successful.

There are a number of people on this list who feed whole raw meat and
bones to their Chihuahuas; perhaps they can help you.
Chris O

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9a. Re: Dog breed abbreviations
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:59 pm ((PST))

"Marcella Burgess" <proudfootkennels@...> wrote:
>
> f.. ES English Setter
Also English Shepherd
And ESS would be English Springer Spaniel
Chris O

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10a. Complicated meals and furred animals
Posted by: "jenvandecar" jenvandecar@hotmail.com jenvandecar
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:19 pm ((PST))

Hi. I am new to the group. Only been feeding raw for about 4
months. I just have a few questions. I was wondering what people
could reccommend for a complicated or time consuming to eat meal? I
am looking for something that my ravenous eaters can work on for a
good long time to exercise their brains and bodies. Thus far the
hardest meal for them to eat that has been given is beef ribs. It
took my golden maybe about 25 min to eat this and my English cocker
about 45. But everything else that has been fed has been gone in
about 5-10 minutes so it was an improvement. Any other suggestions
for good meaty meals that take a while to eat and don't damage
teeth? Also looking for things that are more easily readily
available because I don't know any hunters
and have had difficulty scoring anything from butchers without paying
an arm and a leg.

My other question is about feeding a whole furred rabbit. I have the
opportunity to by furred rabbits at about half the cost of the
skinned ones. Just wondering what the advantages are to feeding the
furry variety. Are the dogs supposed to skin it themselves or do
they consume the fur? Is it hard on the bowels? Any advice would
greatly be appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help.

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Complicated meals and furred animals
Posted by: "christyb14" christyb@cox.net christyb14
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:53 pm ((PST))

Hi Jennifer,

I feed Lola whole rabbit. Jump at the chance to get those whole furred rabbits - at half
price no less!!

When Lola eats rabbit her poop is fascinating - it's much larger by volume but light as a
feather! There appears to be no distress from her just affection!

I would suggest feeding B-I-G to slow your guys down. I don't feed every day (Lola is an
adult). I feed Lola based on her appearance and her cues - when she starts acting like a
canine crumb vacuum in the kitchen I know she's hungry. If I decide she's hungry ("she
must be hungry" - based on my assumptions rather than her behavior) she's very excited
by the food but them sniffs it and walks away - I've had her leave food for 2 days!

Feed big pieces of meat - I have fed 25lb. pieces of meat before, that's a challenge and
they are exhausted when finished!

Feed big, feed less often.

Good Luck!
Christy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jenvandecar" <jenvandecar@...> wrote:
>
>I was wondering what people could reccommend for a complicated or time consuming to
eat meal? My other question is about feeding a whole furred rabbit. I have the
opportunity to by furred rabbits at about half the cost of the skinned ones. Just wondering
what the advantages are to feeding the furry variety. Are the dogs supposed to skin it
themselves or do they consume the fur? Is it hard on the bowels? Any advice would
greatly be appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help. Jennifer

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Complicated meals and furred animals
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:54 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jenvandecar" <jenvandecar@...>
wrote:
>
> Any other suggestions
> for good meaty meals that take a while to eat and don't damage
> teeth? Also looking for things that are more easily readily
> available because I don't know any hunters
> and have had difficulty scoring anything from butchers
> without paying an arm and a leg.

You could try whole chickens or half turkeys and maybe pork ribs.

> Just wondering what the advantages are to feeding the
> furry variety.

I don't think there is any nutritional value. Its one of those
things you are looking for. Something to make eating more work.

> Are the dogs supposed to skin it themselves or do
> they consume the fur?

They generally consume the fur.

> Is it hard on the bowels?

No, its like fiber. It just passes through.

> Any advice would greatly be appreciated.

If you are considering feeding fur on rabbits, get just one or two
to try out first. My dogs won't eat rabbits with fur unless they
caught it or the cats caught it and they can steal it from the
cats. :) They seem to not know what to do with fur-on bought
rabbits.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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11a. ADMIN/Re: Dog breed abbreviations
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:23 pm ((PST))

Sandy was right: Use Google. Or repost the topic on RawChat. On
Rawfeeding, this topic has run its course.
Chris O
Moderation Team

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12. Re: whole raw feeders
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:57 am ((PST))

>>Everything I ever read about animals taking down prey said that the animal goes for the gut and intestines first. <<

I can tell you from first hand observation of a grizzly fishing in Alaska that the grizzly ate the head of the salmon first, then ripped it open and ate the egg sack. The rest of the body was left. Found this fascinating. The naturalist on board told me that in Aug. bears are trying to pack on the pounds quickly so eat only the most fattening bits at that time of year. He continued that earlier in the year, they eat the entire fish, but still tend to eat head and roe first.

-- Anne andt the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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13. Heartburn (?)
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:11 am ((PST))

I hope that is the correct term in English, I looked it up, another
term would be pyrosis.
What can I do to help Mandy when she's experiencing heartburn? She's
kind of hiccuping then, smacking her lips, drinks water, wants to eat
a lot of grass. All that doesn't give her much relief though- it goes
away again after some time but I'd love to help her. I can't say what
causes it- yesterday it was beef meat and a slab of venison ribs.
There's no pattern I can see- the same food another day doesn't cause it.
Any idea how to help her?

Jennifer with Mandy in Germany

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