[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12244

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Patty Linden

2a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: elkilpat
2b. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: carnesbill
2c. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: carnesbill
2d. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Daily diet plan
From: katkellm
3b. Re: Daily diet plan
From: carnesbill

4.1. Re: still swallowing whole
From: katkellm

5a. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: alexanderdewey
5b. Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: alexanderdewey
5c. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: katkellm
5d. Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: katkellm
5e. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: Sandee Lee
5f. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: costrowski75
5g. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: Pamela Picard

6a. How much rabbit,how much venison?
From: gusmyhairyboy
6b. Re: How much rabbit,how much venison?
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: challenges!
From: Sandee Lee
7b. Re: challenges!
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: Venison... Head! Directions needed.
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: Venison... Head! Directions needed.
From: Gayle

9a. Re: Mixed protein sources
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
From: costrowski75
10b. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
From: Giselle

11a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: susrob061174

Messages
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1a. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:10 pm ((PST))

Giselle-- I have some Sl. Elm Bark P. and plan on mixing some with a little yogurt for him tonight. He ate just a tiny bit of turkey breast yesterday, and hasn't eaten today at all--but seems to feel fine. I think that he is just still suffering from a digestive upset from the beef I gave him many days ago, plus not taking skin and fat off of the turkey before I gave it to him. I had known that dogs with a history of pancreatitis shouldn't have very much fat, but when I started him on the raw food diet, I guess I just assumed that he could eat whatever I heard others were feeding (I am feeling so stupid!). I will look for some raw pancreas--thanks again.
:-) Patty

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote: Hi, Patty!
I find raw pancreas very occasionally in one of the 'regular'
supermarkets I shop in. Also, you can find it in Asian, Hispanic or other
ethnic markets. You might be able to get them online, but I never have, and
don't know which places carry it. Maybe some others can give up some names
of online shops that carry it.

You can buy Slippery Elm Bark Powder separately online. Its good for
soothing digestive irritations and inflammation.
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm

TC
Giselle

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Messages in this topic (20)
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2a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "elkilpat" elkilpat@yahoo.ca elkilpat
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:21 pm ((PST))

--- So all this leads me to believe that we don't really truly know
whether the chicks or other are medicated or not. What about beef? They
certainly live longer than 8 weeks. I'm wondering why some chicken is
sold as "medication free" or "hormone free" and is much more expensive,
and regular chicken doesn't say anything. I'm going to do more
research on this - perhaps there's a difference depending on where we
live as well? (Canada vs US)? I know for a fact that some turkey farms
do medicate and some do not (at least here in Canada).

And ... as I mentioned in my original post, the medication supposedly
settles in the bones of the chicken or other animal, and it is when we
feed our beloved dogs the "BONES" that they actually ingest this. As
humans we don't eat the bones (at least I certainly don't), therefore
it's not a big issue for us.

Ellen & Bailey

Messages in this topic (14)
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2b. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:17 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "meg_helmes" <mhelmes@...> wrote:
>
> Here is the YouTube video showing it - fast forward to about 7:00
> minutes to see the inoculations.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tmEO9xRqvo
>
> ~Meg
>
This is an entirely different operation. I don't know where these
chicks in the movie were going but not to a factory farm that will
supply grocery stores. These people were dealing in small orders of
15 or 25 chicks at a time. My brother receives 800,000 chicks at a
time. They don't come in by mail but in tractor trailor trucks.

Using the method in the movie, if you vaccinated one a second every
second, 24 hours a day, it would take over 9 days just to vaccinate
the chicks destined just for my bother's farm. The hatcheries have
many other farms to supply other than my brother's. In the movie,
they said they would have to be vaccinated in the first day of life.

Plus if it cost one penny a chick to innoculate them it would add
$8,000 to the cost of just one batch of chicks. He gets 6 batches in
a year. I don't think you could innoculate each one for anywhere
close to a penny. Since they don't innoculate in high volume
operations, we won't know. :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (14)
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2c. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "elkilpat" <elkilpat@...> wrote:
>
> What about beef?

I don't know beef. I know chickens. :) I know beef is wormed. I
don't know about anything else.

> I'm wondering why some chicken is
> sold as "medication free" or "hormone free" and is much
> more expensive,
> and regular chicken doesn't say anything.

In the US it's against the law to sell chicken advertised as hormone
free and I THINK steriod free. This advertisement would imply that
there is something different about this chicken than any other
chicken. (I have seen some advertised like that though.)

> I know for a fact that some turkey farms
> do medicate and some do not (at least here in Canada).

I don't know turkeys either.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (14)
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2d. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:43 pm ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>> I would think any chemicals added to their food would be ADDED
> chemicals. How else would you add them?
*****
Beats me. But I shall find out. It's time for USDA Man.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:22 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "K. Gordon Crawford"
<kgcrawford@...> wrote:
>> Thoughts on the proposed diet? Too much or too little bone? Enough
variety?

Hi,
I agree with your assessment that poultry takes up a lot of space in
the diet. To me, the bone/meat ratio sounds a little too bone heavy,
but your dog's stool should tell you something about that. Do you
feed twice a day? I guess i'm asking because it would seem, imo,
easier to feed a whole pork roast one day and skip the chicken, and
so i was wondering if the chicken was the am meal and the pork the pm
meal. If that is the case, feeding once a day might make more sense.
Regardless, there are lots more parts to the prey animal than you are
including if you are sticking strictly to the parts and the types of
meat you mentioned. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "K. Gordon Crawford"
<kgcrawford@...> wrote:
>
> Thoughts on the proposed diet? Too much or too little bone?
> Enough variety?

The diet is fine. Don't worry about it. The exact ratio of
meat/bone/organ isn't critical. You just need to be in the ballpark
and you are. Judge the volume to feed by the dog's build not buy
weights and measures. Numbers are numbers.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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4.1. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:22 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
> Yesterday I gave her a
> goat leg and she ate alright but I'm terrified to see her keel over.

Hi Silvina,
Sorry if i missed something along the way, but why are you afraid she
will keel over? KathyM

Messages in this topic (28)
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5a. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:24 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@...>
wrote:

>It is confusing when starting on raw because we seem to be focused
on
> BONES; raw meating bones; chewing bones; bones getting stuck;
> digesting bones; bones in poop; bones bones bones! It gets even
more confusing because they recommend that we start out with chicken
for 1 week....which has bones!!!
>BUT GUESS WHAT ... (and for some reason this isn't very clear,
> because you are the third person in a week who has done this
(myself
> included, I might add) ... guess what ... 80% of our dogs' meals
are
> WITHOUT BONE. That makes for a whole lot of boneless meals. The
> ratio is 80% meat (as in meaty meat, no bone) 10% edibile bone,
10%
> organs with 5% of that being liver. Now they (they = the
experts!!!
> and thank you all for being moderators!) will tell you that this
is
> should be fed over time. But when you are new, like us,
apparently
> it needs to be REALLY REALLY REALLY CLEAR ABOUT THE PERCENTAGES.
> Otherwise, you, me, and the two other people this week, aren't
> getting it. It also needs to be REALLY REALLY CLEAR, that after
the
> initial-chicken-introduction, meat without bone can be fed.
>
> For some reason the message that 80% of the meals do not contain
bone
> is getting missed by beginners.

Hi Cindy,

Actually, I don't 'think' I'm confused. lol. Trying to get the
exact percentages right has been the furthest thing from my mind.
I've just been focusing on the idea of feeding "whole prey" -
assuming that since I'm feeding her the entire bird (minus head and
feathers), the percentages will naturally fall into place. I don't
look at it like "80% of her meals should be solely (boneless)
meat". At least that's how I've interpreted the info here...

Update on the grass though: I just came home from taking Gigi out.
We found some lawn and I let her go to town on it. I guess we'll
wait to see what (if anything) comes up. Will keep the group posted.

Alex

Messages in this topic (13)
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5b. Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Margo Farnsworth"
<mfarnsworth@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Alex,
>
> Dempsey seems to have gotten over his fixation on the grass for
the time being - yay!
>
> I'm wondering if you could offer Gigi some wheatgrass (sold as pet
grass at
> Petco/Petsmart type stores)?
>

Hi Margo,

I'm glad yours is over it! The fact is, Gigi is known to eat
ANYTHING that will fit in her mouth. From the edible (lettuce,
black olives, frito's) to the not so edible (plastic, wood, even
pebbles - as in small rocks - not the cerial) lol. So I imagine
wheatgrass wouldn't be such a far strech. In fact, I bet she'd love
it. It just doesn't fit in very well with the whole prey model I'm
trying to feed. Obviously :)

Alex

Messages in this topic (13)
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5c. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:59 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "alexanderdewey"
<alexanderdewey@...> wrote:>
> Actually, I don't 'think' I'm confused. lol.

Hi Alex,
I love a positive thinker.<g> Actually, i agree with you. Saying
that 80% of the diet should be meat, is not the same as saying 80% of
the meals should be boneless. Feed through the animal and you can't
go wrong. Some critters might be bonier than others, but over time if
you feed a variety of parts from a variety of animals, i always did
like the Frankenprey concept-legs of a chicken, heart of a cow, breast
of a lamb...-it will all balance out over time. KathyM

Messages in this topic (13)
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5d. Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:17 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Margo Farnsworth"
<mfarnsworth@...> wrote:
> I make a "glop" for my dogs that they get every
> few days that contains liver, squash (they love it), carrots and
whatever
> other safe veggie matter I have around. I thought perhaps adding some
> wheatgrass might be satisfying for them?

Hi Margo,
I save the grass growing for my horses.:) Veggies are not a species
appropriate food, even if you glop them, and only take away a spot in
the diet that should be filed with a hunk of a prey animal. As a
treat veggies are great if your dogs like them, but since they can
cause allergies in some dogs, there probably isn't, jmo, such a thing as
safe veggies. KathyM

Messages in this topic (13)
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5e. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:36 pm ((PST))

Alex,

I think Cindi's concern (and rightly so) is that if you are feeding mainly
chicken and have not begun adding red meat and organs, you are missing out
on meat and variety. Whole prey would include feathers, head, innards,
etc....when feeding processed chickens, you are looking at around 32% bone.

This is why we continually recommend adding variety, meat and organs as soon
as possible. The majority of the diet should consist of meat, however it
gets fed...on bone, off bone, makes no difference...but you will not find
that in a chicken!

So Cindi's concern about a diet of mainly chicken quarters is warranted.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "alexanderdewey" <alexanderdewey@yahoo.com>

Actually, I don't 'think' I'm confused. lol. Trying to get the
exact percentages right has been the furthest thing from my mind.
I've just been focusing on the idea of feeding "whole prey" -
assuming that since I'm feeding her the entire bird (minus head and
feathers), the percentages will naturally fall into place. I don't
look at it like "80% of her meals should be solely (boneless)
meat". At least that's how I've interpreted the info here...

Messages in this topic (13)
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5f. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:14 pm ((PST))

"alexanderdewey" <alexanderdewey@...> wrote:
> So... Is there anything I should give her to substitute the grass
> she's trying to eat? (lettuce maybe?) And... Isn't a WEEK of
> trying (like crazy) to eat grass kind of a long time to try to expel
> something?? What could be bothering her for so long?
*****
It's okay for her to eat grass as long as the grass is safe to eat.
Can you buy a couple chunks of sod and build her her very own grazing
area? I don't think lettuce cuts it, actually. My border collie
occasionally wades into the Bermuda grass for a good graze but will
only tolerate so much left over salad. I suspect a good blade of grass
is better than a lettuce leaf.

Since eating grass can be an anxiety reponse as well as sign of
digestive discomfort--and can also be fun or feel good or is a antidote
for boredom--it's hard to know she does it. So IMO the best thing to
do would be to find her some safe grass.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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5g. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:58 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "alexanderdewey"
<alexanderdewey@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I actually logged on to post a question about this and I see someone
> has beaten me to the punch. Our situation is a little bit different
> though, so here goes:
>
> Gigi (21 months/48 lbs) has been TRYING to eat all the grass she
> comes accross for about a WEEK. The thing is, I wont let her eat
> any because we're not talking about a nice grassy meadow - We're
>
> I'm going out of town tomorrow and would hate to have to fast her
> right now. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Since she seems
> fine, "Just don't worry about it" would be a nice one to hear. lol.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alex (raw feeding Gigi since Sept 30, 2007)
>
***

I give my dog a simethicone gel cap when he eats grass, if he's gassy
or his tummy gurgles. Chicken is a bony meat. You might also try
giving her a little more muscle meat. But I would not change her diet
until you return from your trip. You want to be around to monitor any
diet change.

Pamela Picard
http://www.pet-wellness-update.com
http://aimees-law.blogspot.com/
aimees_law-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

***Sign the petition***
Exempt Sick & Senior Pets from Rabies Shots
http://www.petitiononline.com/tdsh2007/petition.html

Messages in this topic (13)
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6a. How much rabbit,how much venison?
Posted by: "gusmyhairyboy" gusmyhairyboy@charter.net gusmyhairyboy
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:48 pm ((PST))

Hi,Suzie G. here

My 5.5 week old Golden puppy ate a whole 2-3# rabbit in two meals.(from
whiskers to toenails and all fur -not a drop of blood left )I was
amazed! Only one loose stool afterwards. I am able to get an unlimited
supply of whole rabbits. My question is how many rabbits would you feed
per week? I understand that variety is a good thing. Also, how much and
how often do people feed venison per week if there is a large supply
available? (it's wonderful living in northern Mn.!)

Maggie is loving her raw diet . (5.5 mos old and about 45 #)

Thanks!

Suzie G. and Beautiful,Dark Golden Maggie

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: How much rabbit,how much venison?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "gusmyhairyboy"
<gusmyhairyboy@...> wrote:
>
> My question is how many rabbits would you feed
> per week? I understand that variety is a good thing. Also, how
> much and
> how often do people feed venison per week if there is a large
supply
> available?

If I had a large supply at reasonable prices I would feed rabbit and
venison 5 or 6 days a week. They are both very nutritous. The
other day or two, I would feed bony chicken parts and maybe a little
organ meat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:28 pm ((PST))

If they've been frozen, it doesn't matter where they originate...commercial
fish has already been frozen and is safe to feed.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <moemahood@aol.com>

> Andrea, you might be right, but we do just fine on whiting and catfish.? I
can get it almost whole so its better than an expensive salmon steak, and I
don't have to worry about where it came from.....because sometimes it isn't
labeled and no one knows....
>
> I do give fish tabs, I rotate from salmon to fish oil tabs to cod liver
oil tabs.? My two get fish once or twice a week -- they love it!

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7b. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:25 pm ((PST))

"jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> ANY Salmon that spawns in FRESH Water Rivers can hold parasites. This
> means all Salmon have that potential.
*****
It's even broader than that. ALL wild prey can harbor parasites. All
wild fish, all wild rabbits, all wild deer, all wild ducks, all of it,
all all all. The issue is which are specifically dangerous and which
are merely things that go bump in the night. Salmon poisoning is the
result of a specific parasite; other parasites in other animals may be
no more a bother than a light load of worms--or no bother at all.

It is a mistake to single out PWN salmon or salmon at all: every wild
caught critter should be frozen first IF the parasite load is
established, or not known or if the human would simply feel better.
Chris O

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8a. Re: Venison... Head! Directions needed.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:56 pm ((PST))

"Gayle" <gayle@...> wrote:
> So first, do I need to worry about the fact there was poop on parts
of it? I did wash it off,
> and this is also one reason I am freezing the whole shebang for a
while.
>
> How long should I freeze it to get rid of any worms or whatever?
*****
No, you don't need to worry about deer poop. My dogs scavenge for
deer poop. Freezing the cleaned up pieces for a week oughta be just
fine. If it's not deer poop (I shudder to think) it would not likely
harm your dogs but it would be good for you to wash your hands well.

> Finally, how would you deal with the puppy and a deer head?
*****
By giving it to him and letting whatever happens happen. Do you have
an exercise pen to put him in? A garage? If he has to work at it on
leash, he'll cope. You may be bored after a while though.

However much progress he makes is however much he makes. He may
disappoint your expectations, or he may be wildly creative and
productive. Don't worry if he doesn't get all the head parts. He'll
have a blast and if nothing else the exercise is good for him.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Venison... Head! Directions needed.
Posted by: "Gayle" gayle@gayleturner.net gayle28607
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:57 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> > Finally, how would you deal with the puppy and a deer head?
> *****
> By giving it to him and letting whatever happens happen. Do you have
> an exercise pen to put him in? A garage? If he has to work at it on
> leash, he'll cope. You may be bored after a while though.

Unfortunately, I don't have a pen, but that sounds like a great idea. Have you fed a deer head
before? If you have, did you just let the dog work on it over the course of a few days?

Maybe I should wait until really cold weather so I don't have to worry about refrigerating the
head between feedings!

Gayle and Chakotay

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9a. Re: Mixed protein sources
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:03 pm ((PST))

"ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
> I was wondering if you "old hands" feed the same protein source for a
> period of time and then change? Or if it's all mixed?
*****
Yes and yes.
Sometimes I feed through a case or delivery of so and so; sometimes I
feed Protein A one day and Protein B the next day; sometimes I offer up
a nice mixed grill (although not grilled) of several proteins. What
works for you and your dogs is what works.

I'd say--on this list--that Tina who feeds mostly venison would
represent one extreme; and Yassy who has introduced to Palette a huge
variety of proteins represents the other extreme: both are doing fine.

Don't worry.
Chris O

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10a. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:45 pm ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
everything you say is correct except you still don't get my
> concept of both ends of the stomach being closed. If they are
open,
> what holds the gas in?
*****
I am not "not getting" your concept. The digestive system is not a
open ended tube. There's the pyloric valve between the stomach and
the duodenum and the valves at the upper and lower ends of the
esophagus. Certainly you have had "gas" before...certainly I have
and certainly our dogs have. How is this possible if the digestive
system is one open tube as you suggest? Whatever produces gas (and
contains it) in the stomach of an otherwise healthy dog is the same
process that produces and contains gas in a bloating dog.

The tube is useful not only to relieve gas build up but also to test
if indeed the stomach has twisted. If you can get it in there's no
torsion, if you can't the stmach has torsed and the path is closed.
Clearly we are referring to different sources, nothing I've read
indicates the tube can be passed through the twisted tissue.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
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10b. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 8:15 pm ((PST))

Hi, Ya'll!
Interesting subject, bloat.

I did some Googling and came up with this site - its graphic, so if you're
easily squicked out, don't look!
http://www.thepetcenter.com/sur/bloat.html

This paragraph explains why bloat happens;
"The production of gas in the stomach sometimes overwhelms the dog's ability
to belch it away or pass it through the bowel as flatulence. There are
various theories about the gastric chemistry that occurs to produce this
sudden buildup of gas. Plus, many dogs that become uncomfortable as the gas
builds up will begin to swallow air, compounding their dangerous condition."

A link to illustrations of the dog's digestive system;
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/anatomy/dog_digest.asp

This is interesting too, I didn't know that torsion and volvulus are
entirely different terms;
"The physiology of bloat

Torsion or volvulus are terms to describe the twisting of the stomach after
gastric distention occurs. The different terms are used to define the
twisting whether it occurs on the longitudinal axis (torsion) or the
mesenteric axis (volvulus). Most people use the terms interchangeably, and
the type of twist has no bearing on the prognosis or treatment. When torsion
occurs, the esophagus is closed off, limiting the dog's ability to relieve
distention by vomiting or belching. Often the spleen becomes entrapped as
well, and its blood supply is cut off."
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/bloat.html

TC
Giselle

*****
> I am not "not getting" your concept. The digestive system is not a
> open ended tube. There's the pyloric valve between the stomach and
> the duodenum and the valves at the upper and lower ends of the
> esophagus. Certainly you have had "gas" before...certainly I have
> and certainly our dogs have. How is this possible if the digestive
> system is one open tube as you suggest? Whatever produces gas (and
> contains it) in the stomach of an otherwise healthy dog is the same
> process that produces and contains gas in a bloating dog.
>
> The tube is useful not only to relieve gas build up but also to test
> if indeed the stomach has twisted. If you can get it in there's no
> torsion, if you can't the stomach has torsed and the path is closed.
> Clearly we are referring to different sources, nothing I've read
> indicates the tube can be passed through the twisted tissue.
> Chris O
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "susrob061174" susrob061174@yahoo.com susrob061174
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:56 pm ((PST))

> I'm wondering if it would be worth my while to put up a few rabbit
> cages up to raise rabbits to feed my Great Dane.
>
> Or should I just buy them.

Hey Jay,

I live in the South and I have not been lucky yet. I was happy to
receive 6 free rabbits (3 females and 3 males). I had been thinking of
raising rabbits for food for a while. When breeding, you have to have
a nesting box for the kits, you cant just hang the cages up. I fed two
(male and female) to my dogs (Older rabbits) and the dogs caught one
when the dogs figured out how to open the doors. I got them on Labor
Day and was hoping for some kits in the next 31 days since the male
was with the females, but wasnt for sure if they bred. The months of
Sept and first part of Oct was so hot. I had to wait at least 35 days,
just in case, no such luck. I finally got the mating pair to breed 3
weeks ago, I'm still waiting. I have the Angora rabbits which get
really hot in Summer unless you shave them. But it seems that I have
pet rabbits for now. I'm going to leave it to the experts on the
breeding part, until I get the hang of the rabbit's habits.

In order the breed rabbits, the female has to be aleast 5 to 6 months
and the males aleast 7 to 8 months. I have read and researched on
breeding rabbits, it harder than it seems. I would suggest to buy for
now.

Susanne, Courtney & the Dane Gang (Zoe, Wilson & Rescues)
www.streborsgreatdanes.com

Life is grand when you love a Dane!! Have you licked your Dane
today?:o)

Messages in this topic (4)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12243

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Canned Fish
From: Mary Anne Libcke
1b. Re: Canned Fish
From: Arlene Fell

2a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: carnesbill
2b. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: Kathryn Chapman
2c. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: meg_helmes

3a. Re: challenges!
From: Yasuko herron

4a. Re: Mixed protein sources
From: ncrnrgrl

5a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: Laura Wimpey
5b. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: Renate

6a. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: alexanderdewey
6b. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: cynthiashankman
6c. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: brutus_buckley
6d. Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: Margo Farnsworth

7a. Re: Green tripe and energy level
From: Yasuko herron

8.1. Re: still swallowing whole
From: delcaste
8.2. Re: still swallowing whole
From: ginny wilken
8.3. Re: still swallowing whole
From: delcaste
8.4. Re: still swallowing whole
From: connie

9a. Re: Pregnancy question again
From: diannem200400
9b. Re: Pregnancy question again
From: diannem200400
9c. Re: Pregnancy question again
From: diannem200400
9d. Re: Pregnancy question again
From: diannem200400

10a. Re: Starting a puppy on RAW
From: Gayle

11a. Re: Daily diet plan
From: K. Gordon Crawford

12a. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
From: April

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Canned Fish
Posted by: "Mary Anne Libcke" Marylibcke@hotmail.com libckem
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 1:25 pm ((PST))

Hi, I am very new to raw feeding and have posted a few times. Thanks
for all the help. My 7 yr. border collie is giving me a hard time with
the new diet. Our 3 month old pit/lab mix will eat anything and
everything with no problem. We are at about a month or so to this and
he is very picky. He now will not eat chicken at all. Really no big
deal in the whole picture. He does eat pork, and beef if it is at room
temperature. His biggest favorite is canned fish. Either salmon or
mackeral with an egg in it. He will then eat pork ribs or lamb. My
question is the amount of fish he is eating. I tried fresh fish but
nope, won't eat it. It comes whole in the can so he is working a
little for it and it does have the bone. Is this too much for him? He
would eat it every day if possible.

Mary Anne
Bandit and Mousse

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Canned Fish
Posted by: "Arlene Fell" abeautiful3@yahoo.com abeautiful3
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

Hi I found an interesting discussion in the archives 145606 that might answer your question it did for me.

Arlene

Mary Anne Libcke <Marylibcke@hotmail.com> wrote: Hi, I am very new to raw feeding and have posted a few times. Thanks
for all the help. My 7 yr. border collie is giving me a hard time with
the new diet. Our 3 month old pit/lab mix will eat anything and
everything with no problem. We are at about a month or so to this and
he is very picky. He now will not eat chicken at all. Really no big
deal in the whole picture. He does eat pork, and beef if it is at room
temperature. His biggest favorite is canned fish. Either salmon or
mackeral with an egg in it. He will then eat pork ribs or lamb. My
question is the amount of fish he is eating. I tried fresh fish but
nope, won't eat it. It comes whole in the can so he is working a
little for it and it does have the bone. Is this too much for him? He
would eat it every day if possible.

Mary Anne
Bandit and Mousse

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Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 1:25 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Nov 5, 2007, at 9:50 AM, carnesbill wrote:
>
> >
> > I would think any chemicals added to their food would be ADDED
> > chemicals. How else would you add them?
> >
>
>
> It's common to add meds to drinking water. Obviously, they use a
lot
> more than would be necessary, as one can't be sure how much
> a chick will drink.

It's not common to add chemicals to anything pertaining to chickens
in the US. My brother owns and runs a factory chicken farm. He
produces almost 5,000,000 chickens a year. I have asked him about
this. He says he will add some anitbiotics IF there is an outbreak
of something in a chicken house but that is rare. Doesn't even
happen once a year on his farm and he has 16 chicken houses.

The lifespan of these chickens is only about 8 weeks. No need to
worm because worm eggs would barely have enough time to hatch, let
alone grow into adult worms. Generally, the chickens don't live
long enough to get sick. It is illegal to give growth hormone or
steriods. These chickens are bred for fast growth and dont really
need them anyway.

If you spent an extra penny a chicken for meds on my brother's farm
it would cost around $50,000 in profit each year. Thats just not
acceptable.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "Kathryn Chapman" paintedgoatfarm@yahoo.com paintedgoatfarm
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 2:19 pm ((PST))

I didn't see the original post, but I am reading here and would like to interject that although raising habits vary a lot. Many producers use a medicated feed for young chicks. The meds are for Coccidosis (I know I didn't spell that correctly). Some continue using a medicated feed others switch to a non medicated. When it comes to meats do not make a generalization as there are many variables. One person said lamb and goat are usually pasture fed. While this is sometimes true the reality is many use grain and "chow" to fatten animals up and unless it has a grassfed claim on the label one does not know.

Kathryn

Kathryn Chapman
Painted Goat Farm

BEWARE OF THE SHEEP!

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to reform."
Mark Twain

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Messages in this topic (10)
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2c. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "meg_helmes" mhelmes@gmail.com meg_helmes
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:34 pm ((PST))

Not
> sure how one would vaccinate thousands of chicks, but not likely one
> at a time...
>
Do you guys watch "Dirty Jobs" on Discovery Channel? They have had
several episodes depicting different aspects of the poultry industry.
All of the chicks are individually vaccinating using a little machine
where they are pressed up against the edge, a button is pushed, and
the chick is injected, then dumped in a box, grab the next chick,
stick them in machine, push button, etc. They cruised through them
pretty quick.

Here is the YouTube video showing it - fast forward to about 7:00
minutes to see the inoculations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tmEO9xRqvo

~Meg

Messages in this topic (10)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 1:25 pm ((PST))

>we do just fine on whiting and catfish.? I can get it almost whole so its better than an expensive salmon steak,

Hi,Maureen. Any fish is fine except you need caution on Northpacific area's salmon and Trout about salmon poisoning.

My grocery store's salmon is from Chile and,I hear that chile salmon is safe but it isfarm raised and color is added(you can read thefish label on this info when you buy),and while some deep freezing might kill parasite but I do not feed it to my dog.

I try buying anything labeled Wild more than Farm raised label.

I personally do not like the salmon is added color to make the fish meat look better...

When I feed salmon,it is from can (packed in water).

In our grocerystore,hard to find raw sardine/mackerral as well,so, to give omega 3 into diet,I give these fish now and then from cans.I know it is cooked but it gives omega3.I like to include omega3 rich fish in diet now and then.

I do not limit myself to get only whole fish and,I get any fish even fillet if those looks great or on sales.

but buy just small amount at first,and if your dog liked it,buy more.

Palette hates catfish,well,she likes rolling on it with delightful smile if I fed it,but it goesinto mouth and spitted out. So,I never buy catfish for that reason.

I have fed whiting,palette likes it.

>I do give fish tabs, I rotate from salmon to fish oil tabs to cod liver
oil tabs.?

Watch out for Cod liver oil tab you give.It gives Vitamin A and D and too much A cause toxic to dogs.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. Re: Mixed protein sources
Posted by: "ncrnrgrl" jcraver1@nc.rr.com ncrnrgrl
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 1:27 pm ((PST))

Thanks to all of you for your responses.
I can't argue with the results I'm getting - my dogs look fabulous
and I can barely keep up with the 10 year old, never mind the puppy -
just nice to know I'm not doing something completely out of
the 'norm'.

Jen C.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "merril Woolf" <merril@...> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I was wondering if you "old hands" feed the same protein source
for a
> > period of time and then change? Or if it's all mixed? I'll go
ahead
> > and admit that I 've been mixing my protein all along - for
example -
> > my dogs had goat for breakfast today and I have pork trim and
necks
> > defrosting for tomorrow - I've been feeding this way all along -
is
> > this incorrect? Should I be sticking with one protein source for
a
> > time then switching?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your responses.
> > Jen C.
> >
>
> I start my dogs as young pups on any and every protein source I can
find. I've never fed
> one type of anything.
> Every day they will have a variety of foods from every corner of
the food spectum.
>
> If your pup is doing great, just keep feeding variety of
critters. Nothing my dogs haven't
> tried and enjoyed.
>
> Merril
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "Laura Wimpey" laura.wimpey@yahoo.com laura.wimpey
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 2:19 pm ((PST))

jaygaughan <jaygaughan@yahoo.com> wrote: >Or should I just buy them.
I can't speak from the feeding perspective but from the opposite side - raising rabbits. We did that for several years with "just a couple of cages" and doggone it was hard! Those little buggers did not do it like rabbits are stereotyped to do. It takes several females and bucks to find two that will do it and do it right. Kind of troublesome. Their gestation period is 31 days...so you'll want to think about timing and housing of the kits while they are growing.
Of course, someone'll no doubt jump on here and tout how easy it is...so not sure if that is helpful.
Laura W.

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5b. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:34 pm ((PST))

Jay, it's a lot of work raising rabbits. I used to have a rabbitry with 60
does, about 1000 rabbits in total at any one time. Rabbits do not 'breed
like rabbits' In the winter, unless you live in the south, you'll have a
hard time getting any breeding at all unless you provide at least 15 hours
of daylight. In the south, the heat in the summer will prevent breeding.
And the does and bucks will need constant cooling down. Honestly, if you're
looking for a consistent supply of rabbit meat, you are probably better off
just buying it. If there is a rabbitry near you, you can probably buy culls
for very little money.

Just my opinion, of course.

Renate

On 11/5/07, jaygaughan <jaygaughan@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if it would be worth my while to put up a few rabbit
> cages up to raise rabbits to feed my Great Dane.
>
> Or should I just buy them.
>
> Thank you
>
> Jay
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 2:19 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@...>
wrote:
Hope you don't mind my
> asking, but are you feeding her anything besides chicken quarters?
>
> Cindi
>

Hi Cindi, No I don't mind at all. I've been feeding Gigi a steady
diet of chicken quarters for just over a month. She has had (with
delight) some raw pork ribs, pigs feet (1 or 2), and cow feet
(again, 1 or 2) - but not for a couple of weeks now. I couldn't
imagine the grass eating being a residual effect of it.

Come to think of it, about a week ago (maybe around the same time
she started trying to eat grass) I gave her a tiny bit (1 or 2
little chunks) of raw beef - The package said "beef stew bone
in"... They were little chunks - not really appropriate for raw
feeding because of their small size. Actually, anyone know what
part of the cow "beef stew bone in" usually comes from? God, I hope
she hasn't had beef bone stuck in her this whole time. Wouldn't she
just throw it up (without eating grass) anyway?

Alex

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "alexanderdewey"
<alexanderdewey@...> wrote:
> Hi Cindi, No I don't mind at all. I've been feeding Gigi a steady
> diet of chicken quarters for just over a month.

I asked what you've been feeding b/c even though us newbies think we
are doing a great thing by feeding raw, apparently it is easy to get
this "wrong". "Wrong" BUT in the correct, and awesome ball park!!!

It is confusing when starting on raw because we seem to be focused on
BONES; raw meating bones; chewing bones; bones getting stuck;
digesting bones; bones in poop; bones bones bones! It gets even more
confusing because they recommend that we start out with chicken for 1
week....which has bones!!!

BUT GUESS WHAT ... (and for some reason this isn't very clear,
because you are the third person in a week who has done this (myself
included, I might add) ... guess what ... 80% of our dogs' meals are
WITHOUT BONE. That makes for a whole lot of boneless meals. The
ratio is 80% meat (as in meaty meat, no bone) 10% edibile bone, 10%
organs with 5% of that being liver. Now they (they = the experts!!!
and thank you all for being moderators!) will tell you that this is
should be fed over time. But when you are new, like us, apparently
it needs to be REALLY REALLY REALLY CLEAR ABOUT THE PERCENTAGES.
Otherwise, you, me, and the two other people this week, aren't
getting it. It also needs to be REALLY REALLY CLEAR, that after the
initial-chicken-introduction, meat without bone can be fed.

For some reason the message that 80% of the meals do not contain bone
is getting missed by beginners.

Apparently the dogs need red meat too! and lots of it to balance out
meals. Now I may get in trouble here for saying this, but I do give
my dog cut-up-in-little-pieces-raw-meat. I don't know, it got too
complicated to feed my one 30 lb. dog roasts, etc. I don't have
access to legs of lambs or cows. So for me, I feed cut-in-small-
pieces-raw-meat. Also because I need to weigh to see that I am
giving him the correct amounts.

Am I in trouble here for giving small pieces? My dog seems to be
doing okay. So I think your small pieces of beef were fine, just
leave the bone out next time.... cuz if she didn't realize the bone
was in, I suppose she could swallow without chewing. It doesn't
sound like she has a bone stuck in her at all.

But it does sound like she needs red meat, no bone meat, and organs.

Hope this helps.

If I have said anything that is very incorrect or would hurt
Alexander's dog in anyway, please correct my information. The rest
of it is "my humble opinion" as a newbie with one dog, figuring this
out all alone, while everyone else around me feeds ki$$le.

Cindi

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

Hi Alex,

The reality is that no one really knows why dogs eat grass. Some
speculate they do it to make themselves vomit, some say it is tasty
and/or fun, some say it is to compensate for nutritional deficiencies.
All or none of these theories may be correct.

Since Gigi seems otherwise normal except for the desire to eat grass, I
would not fast her or worry about it. If you have been feeding nothing
but quarters since September 30th, I suggest introducing something new.
Maybe a little pork or beef or some organ meat. If you are going out of
town, it would be wise to hold off on new meats until you get back.
Perhaps Gigi is bored with her food and looking for some variety. (Yes,
I am speculating.) <g>

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

6d. Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "Margo Farnsworth" mfarnsworth@mfgraffix.com mfarnsworth06759
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:36 pm ((PST))

Hi Alex,

Dempsey seems to have gotten over his fixation on the grass for the time
being - yay!

I'm wondering if you could offer Gigi some wheatgrass (sold as pet grass at
Petco/Petsmart type stores)?

I was also wondering if anyone else grew this for their dogs? I've seen
kits to grow it at home. I make a "glop" for my dogs that they get every
few days that contains liver, squash (they love it), carrots and whatever
other safe veggie matter I have around. I thought perhaps adding some
wheatgrass might be satisfying for them?

I found some Ahi tuna fillets in the back of the freezer, the dogs had a
serious treat tonight! Mmmm.... Fish-cicles :)

Margo, Dempsey & Wasabi.

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Green tripe and energy level
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 2:19 pm ((PST))

> lots of owners notice a certain amount of frantic energy goes away when the carbs of ki**le are gone.

Hi.I think my dog got calmer mostly andmore black and white on energy level; when she play,she plays hard,when sherelax,she naps or sleeps,laydown quietly on her fav place.On and off is so clear.

But I noticed that when I feed Green Tripes,she is more energetic.I feed 2 times a week for tripe.

Do you all experiences this??

yassy

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Messages in this topic (6)
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8.1. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 2:19 pm ((PST))

Hi Connie. I'm writing you offline because I really don't know where
to put this. Yesterday my pit got in a fight with one of the pugs and
almost killed him. I have to get rid of the pit and wonder if you
knew of anybody that would take care of him or direct me to someone
or someplace that would take him. He's about 10 mos old (I found him
when he was 2 to 2 1/2) and a beauty. He's probably a mix of red nose
with ? It's tearing me up to give him up but I can't deal with a
fight again. This little pup is so strong all I could do was fall on
top of him and try to hold him down so he couldn't keep tearing at
Chunkie. You should see my hands; I used one of them as a breakstick,
ha, ha :(

Back to my gulper: My mother had offered to grind all her food and
feed as hamburger. That might be a good idea and give her RMBs every
other day or every couple of days. Is this what you do with your
gulper? I am terrified everytime I feed her. Yesterday she had a goat
leg and did fine. I guess she gorged so today I gave her a little
kidney and a very few pieces of chicken (hand fed). The other pug got
a cornish hen and he ate til I think he was going to pass out and he
got the same meal as Violeta today. Tomorrow they'll get more big
food. So that's my past two days for ya ;)

Silvina

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________

8.2. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

On Nov 5, 2007, at 2:17 PM, delcaste wrote:

> Hi Connie. I'm writing you offline because I really don't know where
> to put this. Yesterday my pit got in a fight with one of the pugs and
> almost killed him. I have to get rid of the pit and wonder if you
> knew of anybody that would take care of him or direct me to someone
> or someplace that would take him.

Since this is already here apparently by mistake, let me offer that
you pittie can be helped to understand his place in your family and
can be trusted, once you teach him. Please go to this list, join, and
then ask the list leader. This is not homeopathy this time, but a
wonderful training protocol which gets to the bottom of what dogs are
thinking and how we can show them what we want from them. Honestly,
he wants to be good, he just doesn't have a clear idea of his place,
both in the family and in your heart. Please give him a chance!

SATZ_Main@yahoogroups.com

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________

8.3. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:34 pm ((PST))

Yes, I'm having all sorts of trouble with her. Yesterday I gave her a
goat leg and she ate alright but I'm terrified to see her keel over.
Today she had some hand fed kidney with very little chicken. I like
your idea of spreading it out; it worked fine with the other pug. I'll
keep you guys posted.

Silvina

>
> You sure are having trouble w/this girl! When you cut it up, are you
> cutting it small enough, then? What about, when you're feeding cut
up
> chunks, you sort of spread it out all over a towel, so she isn't
> scarfing out of a bowl?
>
> Just another idea to add to your tool box!
>
> Good luck. I know that must be very stressful. Take care.
>
> Interesting that you're finding thick fat on goat--I've never had
that
> w/the goat I've gotten.

Messages in this topic (27)
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8.4. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:42 pm ((PST))

Tomorrow they'll get more big
> food. So that's my past two days for ya ;)
>
> Silvina

Hey, Sounds like you have your hands full..wow! As far as the pit goes
and fighting that is OT so I will send you an email. With my gulper the
only edibly bones he gets is chicken and rabbit..about 3-4 days a week.
And he has to get them large. The rest is ground, cut in strips or
chunks big enough to swallow. I don`t feed ground unless I find it on a
really good sale. I give him beef ribs 2-3 times a week..but all he can
really do is gum them up. When I take it away a couple hours later its
totally slobbery, slimy and a few puncture holes in the little bit of
meat there is on it. My other bulldogs don`t have that problem with
much of anything like he does. They can strip a beef rib in about an
hour. Still alot slower than most dogs. I at least feel he is getting
the benefit of a great diet..and he loves it. He will eat
anything..lol..I also like the bully sticks as they give the work out I
think they miss out on. And I don`t feel like I have to supervise
while chewing them. It was a challenge in the beginning but I just kept
experimenting until we came to a happy medium. I will email you.
~connie~
and a bunch of bullies
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (27)
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9a. Re: Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
feed 100% venison, if that's what she likes, I'd let her just
> eat that if you have it available. I've also fed mine 100% heart at
times -
> not a bad thing either - Chris - is their anything lacking in a
heart/liver
> diet?? would it hurt for a month to only feed her that if that's what
> she'll eat - I'm thinking heart is very nutritious.

Thanks for the advice, Tina! I tried pork tongue last night and she
wolfed it down. So now we have beef heart, organ meats, venison, and
pork tongue that she will eat. I'm feeling better about the variety.
Do I need to worry because she won't eat hardly any bone?

Dianne M.

Messages in this topic (14)
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9b. Re: Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "diannem200400" <diannem200400@> wrote:
> >> She will eat all the liver she can get.

how much are you letting her eat?

She is getting about a pound of liver and anywhere from a pound to 2
pounds of kidney per week.

> Lamb is not a mild meat! I don't know where you got that, but you
> may be limiting her unnecessarily. Chicken, rabbit, white fish:
mild
> flesh. Try lamb.

Off to see the Meat Dude....thanks, Cris!!

Dianne M.

Messages in this topic (14)
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9c. Re: Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Dianne,
>
> Many dogs love lamb but detest rabbit! :(
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang

Sandee, I am going to try lamb for sure. I blew the budget on some
lovely whole rabbits, and none of my guys will touch the darn things.
Sheesh, go figure.

Dianne M.

Messages in this topic (14)
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9d. Re: Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:

Ruby would only eat it if it was cut up and she would not touch chicken
from start to finish!? However she never did have pups, we think she
reabsorbed them.? I wish you all the luck with your pretty girl!

Chelsea: I will also try cutting up her meats. Thanks for the tip.
I'm sorry to learn about Ruby. E-mail me privately if you get a chance.

Dianne M.

Messages in this topic (14)
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10a. Re: Starting a puppy on RAW
Posted by: "Gayle" gayle@gayleturner.net gayle28607
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "charlesmdodson" <charlesmdodson@...> wrote:
Like I said, he is 10 weeks old and he is 18 lbs. He is
> a red doberman male and will probably weigh 85-90 lbs when grown.

My pup started on raw at 11 weeks, and is a French Brittany, so only going to be about 40 lbs
full grown. Like one of the previous posters, I smashed the first chicken quarter with a
hammer a little, and also pulled a couple ribbons of flesh out a little so he could get an easy
start. This may or may not have been necessary.

My bet is that with a dobie this large he is going to do really well, and enjoy the tooth/jaw
exercise!

Gayle and Chakotay

Messages in this topic (4)
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11a. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "K. Gordon Crawford" kgcrawford@gmail.com kgcrawfordesq
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:36 pm ((PST))

Thoughts on the proposed diet? Too much or too little bone? Enough variety?

On 11/5/07, K. Gordon Crawford <kgcrawford@gmail.com> wrote:
> After 8 months of rawfeeding, things are going great, except that my
> 16 month old bullmastiff seems a little portly at 120 lbs.
>
> What does the collective think of the following diet for bone meat
> organ ratio (I think I've been relying on too much whole chicken as
> daily meals):
>
> 1.5 lbs portion from whole chicken or turkey (giblets included) +
> either 1 lb beef heart, pork shoulder, or whole tilapia 5 x per week,
> 1lb beef kidney 1x per week, 1lb beef liver 1x per week
>
> fish oil caplets daily
>
> thanks for your input
>
> --
> K. Gordon Crawford
>

--
K. Gordon Crawford

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
Posted by: "April" akakeck@hotmail.com akapitrescue
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 4:43 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nkjvcjs" <nefreed@...> wrote:
>
>
> Does anyone have any suggestion of what we can do to get water into
> her, or to make her feel better until she can get to the vet?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nicole, Eileen (my mom)
> and Tallulah-Belle (the puppy)

I would suggest sub-Q fluids and hold off on food. Depending when her
last meal was the food may be overloading her system! Very bland diet
if compelled to feed, boiled chicken breast, or as someone else
suggested, chicken breast submerged in broth or water. If she is as
severely dehydrated as it sounds, the fluids are going to help more
than food (at 1st anyway). In my experience, if the organs have begun
to "shut down" due to lack of food/water, food may actually cause
more
damage. I would not have fed her until I could get her in to a vet to
make sure!
April
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12242

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: ginny wilken

2a. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
From: Andrea
2b. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
From: moemahood@aol.com
2c. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
From: nkjvcjs

3a. Daily diet plan
From: K. Gordon Crawford
3b. Re: Daily diet plan
From: carnesbill
3c. Re: Daily diet plan
From: K. Gordon Crawford

4a. Re: challenges!
From: moemahood@aol.com
4b. Re: challenges!
From: Andrea
4c. Re: challenges!
From: moemahood@aol.com
4d. Re: challenges!
From: jaygaughan
4e. fish parasites (was Re: challenges)!
From: Andrea

5. Venison... Head! Directions needed.
From: Gayle

6a. Re: Pork tails and amount of fish
From: Kevin Brown

7a. Mixed protein sources
From: ncrnrgrl
7b. Re: Mixed protein sources
From: Andrea
7c. Re: Mixed protein sources
From: carnesbill
7d. Re: Mixed protein sources
From: moemahood@aol.com
7e. Re: Mixed protein sources
From: merril Woolf

8a. starving dog
From: Cris Milam

9a. Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: alexanderdewey
9b. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: cynthiashankman

10. Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: jaygaughan

11a. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
From: carnesbill

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 10:09 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "carnesbill" <carnesw@> wrote:
> > All chicken in non medicated.
> *****
> My understanding is that there are no ADDED hormones or
antibiotics.
> Which of course leaves room to add medications that are neither
> hormones nor antibiotics. I believe there are certain medications
> poultry producers can and do use as part of the feed.
>
> Chris O
>
Nope, Occasionally antibioitics are used when a disease gets into a
chicken house but otherwise nothing is added to their food. These
chicks only live 8 to 9 weeks. There is no need to give them added
hormones or antibiotics or steriods.

If you are taking about laying hens, I have no clue about them but I
don't think many if any of us are feeding laying hens.

I would think any chemicals added to their food would be ADDED
chemicals. How else would you add them?

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:47 am ((PST))

On Nov 5, 2007, at 9:50 AM, carnesbill wrote:

>
> I would think any chemicals added to their food would be ADDED
> chemicals. How else would you add them?
>

It's common to add meds to drinking water. Obviously, they use a lot
more than would be necessary, as one can't be sure how much a chick
will drink. Wormers can be given in food or water, and all
commercially raised chicks are "vaccinated" for Marek's, a virus. Not
sure how one would vaccinate thousands of chicks, but not likely one
at a time...

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 10:24 am ((PST))

Have you called around to other vets who can see her in an emergency?
I would think that a vomiting puppy who will not drink should be
squeezed in by any vet! Try making some chicken broth and see if she
will drink that. Or maybe offer the chicken breast in a bowl of
water. I suppose you could also use a syringe and squirt water into
the back of her throat to make her drink.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nkjvcjs" <nefreed@...> wrote:

> The vet can't, or won't fit her in until tomorrow afternoon. She is
> very, very skinny. Extremely dehydrated, and vomiting bright yellow
> the entire time my mom has had her. 4-5 vomits/day.

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:04 am ((PST))

She has gobbled up boneless, skinless chicken breast, but will not
drink, and will not lick ice cubes. When she vomits, even within an
hour or so of eating, there is no visible food in the vomit. Just
bright yellow, slimy liquid. She has had one BM since saturday, N
color, formed.

She also has goopy eyes and is lethargic. She tries to play, then
gets tired and falls asleep after 1-2 minutes, and will not rouse,
even with loud noises. Then she wakes up and is sleepy and languid
for a long time.

I have distemper alarm bells going off in my head with the goopy eyes
and bright yellow vomit. But there haven't been any seizures, so
maybe not.

Does anyone have any suggestion of what we can do to get water into
her, or to make her feel better until she can get to the vet?

Thanks,

Nicole, Eileen (my mom)
and Tallulah-Belle (the puppy)

Nicole,

Just continue to feed her -- she is probably starving.? Let her rest and take her temperature? 99-102 is normal.? If she has been running the streets for a couple of weeks she is severly malnourished and only time and food?will cure that.? I wouldn't just jump to the distemper conclusion until you see your vet.?

Don't worry about the water, the chicken has water in it.? If she is dehydrated the vet can give her a fluid shot.? Good luck -- you did? a good thing.

?Maureen

________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
Posted by: "nkjvcjs" nefreed@gmail.com nkjvcjs
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:04 pm ((PST))

Thanks for the responses.

No luck with the broth, just turned her nose up at it. She vomited
again, bright yellow-green, then she started to chew her blanket. My
mom says she seemed almost desperate trying to chew the blanket.

My mom also said that her skin feels like paper, and just stays up if
you tug on it, so she is very dehydrated.

So we decided the best course of action would be to go to the vet and
just sit there, and hope someone cancels, or no shows, or is late and
they can squeeze her in.

Thanks so much for the responses, and we will keep you posted.

-Nicole, Eileen and Tallulah Belle

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Daily diet plan
Posted by: "K. Gordon Crawford" kgcrawford@gmail.com kgcrawfordesq
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:04 am ((PST))

After 8 months of rawfeeding, things are going great, except that my
16 month old bullmastiff seems a little portly at 120 lbs.

What does the collective think of the following diet for bone meat
organ ratio (I think I've been relying on too much whole chicken as
daily meals):

1.5 lbs portion from whole chicken or turkey (giblets included) +
either 1 lb beef heart, pork shoulder, or whole tilapia 5 x per week,
1lb beef kidney 1x per week, 1lb beef liver 1x per week

fish oil caplets daily

thanks for your input

--
K. Gordon Crawford

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:04 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "K. Gordon Crawford"
<kgcrawford@...> wrote:
>
> What does the collective think of the following diet for bone meat
> organ ratio (I think I've been relying on too much whole chicken as
> daily meals):

I wouldn't worry so much about any ratios. I would just feed the
dog less. A lot less. Like maybe half what she is getting now
until her weight starts moving in the right direction. Whole
chickens willl not make a dog fat unles fed way too much. Chicken
is not a "fattening" food.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "K. Gordon Crawford" kgcrawford@gmail.com kgcrawfordesq
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:47 pm ((PST))

To clarify, I also think these are two different issues - I had been giving
about 3 + lbs per day, which may be two mutch - so you'll see that the
proposed menu is 2.5 lbs per day. I just also thought that I may have been
giving too much bone (though there are no stool problems) and want that
corrected.

On 11/5/07, carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>, "K.
> Gordon Crawford"
> <kgcrawford@...> wrote:
> >
> > What does the collective think of the following diet for bone meat
> > organ ratio (I think I've been relying on too much whole chicken as
> > daily meals):
>
> I wouldn't worry so much about any ratios. I would just feed the
> dog less. A lot less. Like maybe half what she is getting now
> until her weight starts moving in the right direction. Whole
> chickens willl not make a dog fat unles fed way too much. Chicken
> is not a "fattening" food.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>
>
>

--
K. Gordon Crawford

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:04 am ((PST))

Linda,

I'd start feeding whole chicken, not?just the carcass,?and then add whole unground?beef, like?heart or a roast cut up?and some organs.? Cut out cottage cheese and yogurt -- too much dairy.? And stop with the eggs and then gradually add them back in -- too many eggs can cause the runs.?

I wouldn't feed salmon unless I knew it was parasite free.....there are certain worms the live in salmon.? Maybe change the fish to whiting or perch -- then you can feed it whole with the bones and organs.

If you think he has a sensitive stomach start with one protien, perhaps the whole chicken or chicken parts,?for a few weeks and then slowly add new protiens like pork, lamb, rabbit or deer.? Ground meat is usually high in fat and anything ground has more breeding ground for ecoli and salmonella -- so try to stick with big hunks of meat instead of ground -- so that he can build up his resistance.?

If he is dehydrated at all bring him to the vet just to be sure there isn't a bigger issue lurking about.? Good luck.

?Maureen

-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Baldwin <ljbcandr@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 8:43 pm
Subject: [rawfeeding] challenges!

Hi there!
I have a 14 mth lab retriever, fed raw from birth. He came to us at 5 months and was fine up to about 2 months ago. We are having problems with gas, diarhea, vomiting. I feed chicken carcass, raw ground beef, salmon - with occasional eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese. Any ideas what could be causing his problems. Our older dog switched to raw when we adopted the pup and hasn't looked back! It's frustrating - he turns his nose up at organ meats. Can dogs have ulcers or sensitive stomachs? I appreciate any advice!
Linda
ljbcandr@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:45 am ((PST))

moemahood@... wrote:

> I wouldn't feed salmon unless I knew it was parasite free.....there
> are certain worms the live in salmon.?

Pshaw, no need to bypass salmon all together! The only salmon that
*might* pose a problem are those from the Pacific Northwest. Even if
you are lucky enough to get fresh wild salmon from that area you can
just freeze them rock solid for a couple of weeks to kill any
parasites. Farmed salmon or previously frozen salmon aren't problems
for dogs.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (7)
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4c. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:05 pm ((PST))

Andrea, you might be right, but we do just fine on whiting and catfish.? I can get it almost whole so its better than an expensive salmon steak, and I don't have to worry about where it came from.....because sometimes it isn't labeled and no one knows....

I do give fish tabs, I rotate from salmon to fish oil tabs to cod liver oil tabs.? My two get fish once or twice a week -- they love it!

?Maureen

moemahood@... wrote:

> I wouldn't feed salmon unless I knew it was parasite free.....there
> are certain worms the live in salmon.?

Pshaw, no need to bypass salmon all together! The only salmon that
*might* pose a problem are those from the Pacific Northwest. Even if
you are lucky enough to get fresh wild salmon from that area you can
just freeze them rock solid for a couple of weeks to kill any
parasites. Farmed salmon or previously frozen salmon aren't problems
for dogs.

Andrea

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:32 pm ((PST))

ANY Salmon that spawns in FRESH Water Rivers can hold parasites. This
means all Salmon have that potential.

I eat lots of Sashimi. Wild Salmon is definitely preferred over any
farm raise or land locked Salmon.

In most cases you'll be able to see the parasites in the fillets if
there are any If you're feeding whole fish of course you can't see
through them.

All fresh water fish can have parasites. This is why most fish in a
Sushi bar are from saltwater.

Jay

Messages in this topic (7)
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4e. fish parasites (was Re: challenges)!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:54 pm ((PST))

"jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:

> ANY Salmon that spawns in FRESH Water Rivers can hold parasites. This
> means all Salmon have that potential.

Parasites in general, yes, but the parasite that causes salmon
poisoning in dogs is only in the pacific northwest (from northern Ca to
southern Alaska). Since this wild salmon is the most expensive it is
unlikely that the store won't have a big sign telling everyone that it
is fresh wild PNW salmon. Still, if you aren't comfortable feeding the
fish after freezing, you don't have to.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (7)
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5. Venison... Head! Directions needed.
Posted by: "Gayle" gayle@gayleturner.net gayle28607
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:05 am ((PST))

Hi folks,

This morning I scored a few venison scraps. I got part of a lung, some trachea, some
meat from the ends of the ribs (that had poop on it), four hoof-ends of legs, and... the
head!

I only took the head because of all the advice here on the "whole prey" model, and the fact
that even when I buy whole chicken, there often is no neck, gizzard, liver, or anything in
the body cavity.

I washed the poop off, and packaged up the lung with some meat and the trachea with
some meat, which I hope are pretty straight forward meals for a 16 week old Brit pup who
so far has only had chicken and pork.

The head I was going to cut in half so the pup could get at the brains more easily, and so I
could freeze it in two pieces. But as I contemplated the head and my clever I quickly
decided to just freeze the whole thing. I'm rarely a wimp, but that grossed me out.

So first, do I need to worry about the fact there was poop on parts of it? I did wash it off,
and this is also one reason I am freezing the whole shebang for a while.

How long should I freeze it to get rid of any worms or whatever?

Finally, how would you deal with the puppy and a deer head? I usually feed him in his
crate, but between the size of the head and his size, that's not even an option. If I feed it
to him outside (where he'll have to be leashed - no fence ) will he be able to get at all the
deer head parts without my wielding the clever?

At this point he is a pro at chicken halves and pork butt.

Gayle and Chakotay

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Pork tails and amount of fish
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:06 am ((PST))

I feed my two OEM either pork feet or tail 2 times a month. I have
had no problems, and they like the treat.

They usually spend alot of time playing with them as they eat them.

Kevin
guardiansbythesea.com

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "blueberry5297"
<blueberry5297@...> wrote:
>
> What do you think of pork tails? I saw them at the store yesterday
and
> thought it might make a nice boney treat once in a while when my
dog
> hasn't had enough. Anything I should be aware of? Does anyone think
> this bone is too hard?
>
> I also decided to try fish for the first time and bought some perch
on
> manager's special [which as you all know means "about to go bad",
lol].
> My only question about this is how much to give him. I planned to
give
> it to him by itself to see how he likes it, but I've heard
somewhere
> that you shouldn't feed too much fish. Blue is about 40 pounds and
I
> bought 0.78 lbs of perch filet. What do you recommend for one
serving?
> I know this will vary from person to person, but I'd like to get an
> idea by hearing what a few different owners have to say. The fish
alone
> doesn't seem like enough food for one meal so I'll probably give
him
> one of the pork tails right afterward and/or some chicken liver...
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks a lot!
>
> - Jeni & Blue -
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Mixed protein sources
Posted by: "ncrnrgrl" jcraver1@nc.rr.com ncrnrgrl
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

Hi all,
I'm relatively to new to this, and have learned a great deal from
reading along - I am such a geek I save the digests and read them at
home each night. :) I greatly appreciate having this board to guide
me along. So, thanks to all of you who take the time to answer all
the Noobie questions, and provide support. It doesn't go unnoticed.

I'm feeding two dogs, and I've learned that I have it easy. My dogs
love everything I put in front of them and tolerate everything will
very little trouble, ok, I admit beef heart was a little tough (read:
runny stools) but other than that, they love and respond well to
everything.

I was wondering if you "old hands" feed the same protein source for a
period of time and then change? Or if it's all mixed? I'll go ahead
and admit that I 've been mixing my protein all along - for example -
my dogs had goat for breakfast today and I have pork trim and necks
defrosting for tomorrow - I've been feeding this way all along - is
this incorrect? Should I be sticking with one protein source for a
time then switching?

Thanks in advance for your responses.
Jen C.

Messages in this topic (5)
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7b. Re: Mixed protein sources
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:40 am ((PST))

> Should I be sticking with one protein source for a time then
> switching?

Nah, I think it is more fun for all involved if you switch it up
regularly. If I had the opportunity to feed whole prey, like a calf or
something, I surely would keep feeding it until it was gone. I know my
boys get bored with the same thing every day.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (5)
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7c. Re: Mixed protein sources
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:05 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
>
> I admit beef heart was a little tough (read:
> runny stools) but other than that, they love and respond well to
> everything.

I never feed beef heart as a meal but as part of a meal. Usually
around 1/4 of a meal.

> I was wondering if you "old hands" feed the same protein
> source for a
> period of time and then change?

No, never. Rarely will it be the same two meals in a row.

> Or if it's all mixed?

I will sometimes feed 2 or 3 protein sources in one meal. Last
Saturday night my dogs had fish, beef heart, beef liver, and an egg
all in the same meal.

> I've been feeding this way all along - is
> this incorrect?

NO, its not incorrect. I suspect it's the way most of us feed.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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7d. Re: Mixed protein sources
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:05 pm ((PST))

I was wondering if you "old hands" feed the same protein source for a
period of time and then change? Or if it's all mixed? I'll go ahead
and admit that I 've been mixing my protein all along - for example -
my dogs had goat for breakfast today and I have pork trim and necks
defrosting for tomorrow - I've been feeding this way all along - is
this incorrect? Should I be sticking with one protein source for a
time then switching?

Thanks in advance for your responses.
Jen C.

Jen,

I've always been told to balance over time.? I feed whatever is defrosted so sometimes there is a big variety, sometimes they get the same thing for a week.? Like I just ordered 20lbs of beef kidney and 35lbs of turkey necks, plus rabbit and beef tripe (30lbs)?and 10lbs of fish and just picked up some deer from freecycle.? Everything gets processed into single serving baggies and whatever comes out to of the freezer is what they will get....so there maybe 5 days of kidney and turkey necks and then a few days of tripe -- as long as over a month everything equals out I don't worry about it.? I do have liver that I feed as a snack just to make sure they get enough liver -- sometimes I do beef and sometimes I do chicken.? Right now there are a few pieces of beef liver that need to be fed in my fridge so they'll get a mouthful a day until it is gone.....

?Maureen

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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7e. Re: Mixed protein sources
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:32 pm ((PST))

>
> I was wondering if you "old hands" feed the same protein source for a
> period of time and then change? Or if it's all mixed? I'll go ahead
> and admit that I 've been mixing my protein all along - for example -
> my dogs had goat for breakfast today and I have pork trim and necks
> defrosting for tomorrow - I've been feeding this way all along - is
> this incorrect? Should I be sticking with one protein source for a
> time then switching?
>
> Thanks in advance for your responses.
> Jen C.
>

I start my dogs as young pups on any and every protein source I can find. I've never fed
one type of anything.
Every day they will have a variety of foods from every corner of the food spectum.

If your pup is doing great, just keep feeding variety of critters. Nothing my dogs haven't
tried and enjoyed.

Merril

Messages in this topic (5)
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8a. starving dog
Posted by: "Cris Milam" cmilam@comcast.net cris_milam
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 11:24 am ((PST))

Glad to have you here, and congrats on your new Greyhound. When we first got Duncan from the racetrack, he was a VERY skinny 73 pounds -- his hip bones were mountains and you could see every rib and vertebra.

Like the other responses you got, I suggest that you move to one meat source (chicken is great), increase the bone for stool firmness, drop the organs for a bit, no eggs, and feed several small meals. You will probably have to go over the 2-3% of body weight in food per day -- Duncan needed 4% to hold his own.

Do not get exasperated if it takes a while for your dog to gain weight. It seems to take greys a while to get their weight up (if you do it in a healthy way). Remember that your dog will be increasing in health even if her weight isn't going up. Also, do not expect that your grey will gain weight on chicken. Duncan needed beef to gain weight.

Mostly, take things slowly. Raw feeding is not a sprint. It is a marathon. A lot of the generally accepted feeding practices here may not fit for you -- yet. As you move ahead, you will see that your dog's health will improve and you will be able to move to a more "normal" raw feeding diet. Just watch your dog and figure out what works for both of you.

BTW, it took 3-4 months for Duncan to gain the 5 pounds he needed. He ate 3 meals a day. What really made the difference in his weight was when he had beef for one or two of his meals every day for 10 days.

Hope to hear more from you.
Cris M

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Messages in this topic (5)
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9a. Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:05 pm ((PST))

Hi,

I actually logged on to post a question about this and I see someone
has beaten me to the punch. Our situation is a little bit different
though, so here goes:

Gigi (21 months/48 lbs) has been TRYING to eat all the grass she
comes accross for about a WEEK. The thing is, I wont let her eat
any because we're not talking about a nice grassy meadow - We're
talking about the little bit of grass which grows between the
sidewalk and the curb, and a lot of people around here use a very
deadly rat poison (tres pesitas) - The tinyest bit kills CATS and
DOGS too, and it happens frequently :( So obviously I'm extremely
vigilant when it comes to Gigi poking around or trying to eat
ANYTHING on the street.

So... Is there anything I should give her to substitute the grass
she's trying to eat? (lettuce maybe?) And... Isn't a WEEK of
trying (like crazy) to eat grass kind of a long time to try to expel
something?? What could be bothering her for so long?

There's plenty of times in the past that she's thrown stuff up that
she's having a hard time digesting (without eating grass). To the
best of my knowledge, she's only eaten the chicken quarters I've
been feeding her daily. Otherwise, she's acting normal and full of
energy.

I'm going out of town tomorrow and would hate to have to fast her
right now. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Since she seems
fine, "Just don't worry about it" would be a nice one to hear. lol.

Thanks,

Alex (raw feeding Gigi since Sept 30, 2007)

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:32 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "alexanderdewey"
<alexanderdewey@...> wrote:
>
To the best of my knowledge, she's only eaten the chicken quarters I've
> been feeding her daily. Otherwise, she's acting normal and full of
> energy.
> Thanks,
>
> Alex (raw feeding Gigi since Sept 30, 2007)

I am not a moderator, but an fellow newbie. Hope you don't mind my
asking, but are you feeding her anything besides chicken quarters?

Cindi

Messages in this topic (2)
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10. Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:32 pm ((PST))

I'm wondering if it would be worth my while to put up a few rabbit
cages up to raise rabbits to feed my Great Dane.

Or should I just buy them.

Thank you

Jay

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 12:57 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> I believe one can feed a tube down the throat of a bloating
> dog; if
> the tube goes down far enough, it's not torsion
> because--obviously--the stomach hasn't torsed.
>
> I would not recommend, however, waiting around to see if torsion
> follows.

Yes, everything you say is correct except you still don't get my
concept of both ends of the stomach being closed. If they are open,
what holds the gas in? It would be like trying to blow up a ballon
with two large holes in it. When you push the tube down the dogs
throat, and when it works, the tube pushes it's way through the dogs
closed opening and allows the gas to escape through the hole.
Sometimes they will make an incision in the dogs belly and put in a
tube that way.

It doesn't need to be a tube although thats what they used. You
could use a plastic rod with no hole in it if you could get it down
the dogs throat. As soon as it passes the closed opening, forcing
it open, the gas will escape up the throat.

I am not saying bloat and torsion is the same thing. The openings
can close without the stomach twisting (torsion). Torsion just by
itself will definately close both openings in the stomach but they
can close without torsion happening. How do they close? I don't
have a clue. But if they didn't the gas would escape either through
the mouth or anus. Again, if the openings were open, what holds the
gas in?

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (16)
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