Feed Pets Raw Food: Sep 30, 2007

Sunday, September 30, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12098

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: A few problems with raw diet
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: A few problems with raw diet
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: A few problems with raw diet
From: great_dane_devotee

2a. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
From: tottime47
2b. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
From: tottime47

3. Ostrich bones
From: ms1616emc

4a. Re: Constipation? Bone Blockage?
From: Kathie Middlemiss

5.1. New Member
From: Carol Dunster
5.2. Re: New Member
From: Barb
5.3. Re: New Member
From: Sandee Lee
5.4. Re: New Member
From: Carol Dunster
5.5. Re: New Member
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Re: what to do
From: Shannon Hully

7a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
From: Shannon Hully
7b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
From: Karen Swanay

8. {Raw Feeding} Update on Max
From: Brandi Bryant

9a. Cheap meat
From: girlndocs
9b. Re: Cheap meat
From: aliciamyan

10. Day 4 of Raw and WILD!
From: aliciamyan

11a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
From: Maiakitas@aol.com
11b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
From: ada

12a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: Caren OConnor
12b. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: cypressbunny
12c. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: Caren OConnor

13. First RAW WITH BONES served today!!
From: alexanderdewey

Messages
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1a. Re: A few problems with raw diet
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "suburbancow"
<lizzieodonnell@...> wrote:
>
> ***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***
>
>
> I asked on another
> message board about this problem and they said I shouldn't
> be feeding
> my puppy a raw diet and that I sohuld wait til he's an adult.

I don't know what to say except they are wrong. Many breeders on
this list ween their puppies directly to raw, never ever feeding
kibble.

> I took my pup out to play with the other dogs and he's bouncy and
> playful and acting normal but in the 15 or so minutes I was
> out there
> he peed three normal-length times.

Could have been excitement(most likely cause), could have been
submissive urination, could be UTI.

> I always thought he drank a little
> too much water than normal dogs.

Normally, raw fed dogs drink less water than kibble fed because they
get a lot of moisture in their food. I'm not sure if puppies need
more water than adults.

> I took my pup for his third set of shots about two weeks ago so
> it has
> nothing to do with an reaction from the shots I'm sure.

Don't be real sure. It's still possible.

> His poop is
> also very small and from what I gather it's somewhat
> liquidy because I
> can see circular areas in the concrete from where he pooped.

I don't really understand this statement. It's normal for raw fed
dogs to have much smaller poops. I don't understand what you are
saying about circular areas on the concrete. Don't you see the poop
immediately after it comes out? What does it look like at that time?

> I saw one of them and it was dark but not
> black, and it had an odd smell to it.

The color of the poop is determined by the food that it is made from.

> It didn't smell like normal
> poop. Smelled very strange.

That could mean upset tummy or could mean more serious things.

> One last thing.. I'm thinking about changing my vet for these
> reasons... Please tell me if they're valid or if I'm just being
paranoid:
>
> 1.) Regarding my pup's temperature. My vet said his temp
> was slightly
> elevated because he was scared of being in his office. It was 102
> during the second visit and 103 during the last visit.

I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

> He also peed on
> me when I went last time when they were taking his temperature
> probably from being scared but I'm sure a regular
> temperature would be
> 101 and that 103 is quite high.

I think 102 is normal and 103 is notihng to worry about.

> 2.) The vet gave the pup a physical exam only the first time I went
> (which was his second set of shots). He looked at his eyes, ears,
> teeth, smoothed his hand down his body, checked the groin area, and
> expressed his glands. During the third set of shots I didn't
> even see
> the vet, the vet tech administered the shots and didn't
> check anything
> but his temp.

I wouldn't be concerned about that. He doesn't need a checkup every
few weeks.

> 3.) He received rabies and DHLPP (I tihnk that's the acronym)
> in the
> same shot.

I would be concerned about that. I have never heard of those in the
same injection but I am not a vet and don't quite know everything
yet. :)

> Should I change my vet?

Can't tell you. I would have a talk about vaccinations AFTER you
have researched them yourself. I would also talk to him about
anything else you are concerned about and let him explain himself.

> And does what I described sound like a UTI or
> some issue with his kidneys?

Probably just a UTI if even that serious.

> My puppy has been eating chicken wings, necks, ground beef, ground
> turkey, I gave him leg quarters a couple times, and I don't think I
> give him enough big bones to chew on but I have been giving
> him beef
> bones since his adult teeth are coming in.

By now he is probably too large for chicken wings and necks. He is
probably large enough to swallow them whole and thats not a good
thing. I wouldn't feed those anymore. Feed whole turkey parts
instead of ground. Feed whole beef parts instead of ground. Forget
giving him beef bones. They are too dense to feed.

> I also give him a veggie
> mixture that includes leafy greens, cottage cheese, ACV, eggs with
> shells, carrots, other vegetables that I have available and I throw
> some fruit in there if I have it. I blend this all down to a
> pulp and
> feed it to him about once every other day. Should I up the veggies?

NO! You should cut them out completely. Your dog is a carnivore
and has no dietary need for fruits or veggies in any form. He gets
all the nutrition he needs from meat, bones, and organs.

Think of it like this. The reason you puree the veggies is because
your dog is incapable of digesting them. If he needed them
nutritionally, don't you think in millions of years of evolution,
they would have developed a method for digesting them? My dogs
haven't had a fruit or veggie in 5 years and as far as I know they
are perfectly healthy.

> He
> gets in total about 2-2 1/2 lbs of food a day split into two meals.

The volume doesn't matter. His looks are what matters. If he is of
good build, feed him the same volume. If he is heavy, feed less.
Too fat? Feed more. Remember thin is healthier than fat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: A few problems with raw diet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:56 pm ((PDT))

First of all, the idea of not feeding a puppy a raw diet is nonsense.
Appropriate diet is crucial to proper growth.

I really don't think you have a problem here. I would suggest adjusting the
diet and see what happens....unless of course the puppy starts acting
lethargic, not eating or drinking, vomiting, etc.

Get rid of all the veggies, fruits and other unnecessary ingredients
(cottage cheese, ACV), start feeding some nice whole raw meaty bones rather
than ground meat and bony chicken parts, and I think you will see a
difference. Oh, and no big bones to chew on....those are the tooth
breakers.

Poop changes depending on what is being fed....ground meats, fruits and
veggies are going to produce stools that will differ in smell and texture
from those after a bone-in meal.

And *stop* with the vaccinations. He's had enough to kill an elephant so
far! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "suburbancow" <lizzieodonnell@houston.rr.com>

My puppy has been eating chicken wings, necks, ground beef, ground
turkey, I gave him leg quarters a couple times, and I don't think I
give him enough big bones to chew on but I have been giving him beef
bones since his adult teeth are coming in. I also give him a veggie
mixture that includes leafy greens, cottage cheese, ACV, eggs with
shells, carrots, other vegetables that I have available and I throw
some fruit in there if I have it. I blend this all down to a pulp and
feed it to him about once every other day. Should I up the veggies? He
gets in total about 2-2 1/2 lbs of food a day split into two meals.

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: A few problems with raw diet
Posted by: "great_dane_devotee" libpowers@mac.com great_dane_devotee
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

Lizzie,

I can't address all your concerns, but as far as diet, you wrote:

I also give him a veggie
> mixture that includes leafy greens, cottage cheese, ACV, eggs with
> shells, carrots, other vegetables that I have available and I throw
> some fruit in there if I have it. I blend this all down to a pulp and
> feed it to him about once every other day. Should I up the veggies?

I tried the raw diet you are feeding, and it was way too much work. You can do all that
grinding and stuff, but if your life contains much more than a pup, eventually you burn out.
This forum encourages the feeding of a prey model diet which is 80% meat, 10% organs, and
10% meaty bones. Many people are feeding pups so you might want to peruse the archives
for suggestions.

I've been doing this style of raw diet and it is much easier than the grinding, etc.

Blessings with your new pup,

Libby

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:57 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jacki,

Yep, that was the reason for the gloves, lol.

You could try some vinegar on your hands, that usually works....

Carol, Charkee & Moli ( we love the smell!)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "matrimentor" <matrimentor@...>
wrote:

> It's lovely, but now I understand what people mean when they say it's
> stinky! I should have read your post first about wearing gloves.
> I'm not squeamish about stuff like that, so I just dug in with my
> bare hands. Now I'm having trouble getting the tripe smell off of
> them ;-)
>
> jacki

Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

Thank You Chris O,

That is always good info to file away, as I've not had the
pleasure :) of
goat guts yet, but definately look forward to it, hahahahaha....
I might add so does Moli, lol.

Carol, Charkee & Moli (who eats everything!)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
I heaved the bucket contents over the fence and let
> my three retrievers eat of it and everything disappeared promptly
> except for the stomach contents, which was picked at but not
devoured.
> The stomach tissue itself was nibbled away from the ddigesta.
>
> I suspect there will be little processing required with a young
lamb's
> stomach.
> Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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3. Ostrich bones
Posted by: "ms1616emc" auntie_bear@hotmail.com ms1616emc
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:15 pm ((PDT))

Has anyone ever fed ostrich knuckles? I see them on my supplier's
wesbiste, but not sure how big they would be (didn't even know
ostrich's has knuckles!). I've a 12 lb. chihuahua-god-knows-what mix
and don't want something to big for her to chew up.

Thanks!

- Sandra

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Constipation? Bone Blockage?
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:39 pm ((PDT))

Update:

Max seems fine though perplexed with my following him around to watch
him poop. He keeps looking over his shoulder at me like "What *do* you
want, mom? Sheesh!"

He's eating and drinking and bouncing around like normal, so maybe he
was a little constipated but otherwise he's great.

Kathie, Mom to:
Jake Lab/something mix - 6 years/98 pounds
Max Lab - 13 weeks/30 pounds
Ruby Lab/shepherd mix - 12 weeks/20-ish pounds

Messages in this topic (4)
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5.1. New Member
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:39 pm ((PDT))

Hi!

I have been active with animals my entire life and have bred and shown
dogs for many years. However, a few years back I retired from the dog
showing and breeding to spend more time with my family.

I have access to several good sources of raw food for my dogs and
decided that it is time to look into going from supplementing their
kibble with raw food to a full diet. Before I do this, I want to
research so that I feed them a healthy diet, not just whatever I
happen to have on hand.

I have access to raw liver, heart and tongue, mostly liver. A good
friend of mine gives me the offal when he butchers, his beef is raised
on grass and finished on corn and peas, its natural and healthy. His
butcher can get me raw bones too. I raise ducks for our own eggs and
they free range during the day, so I have healthy eggs. I can buy
pastured/farm raised chicken too, though its pretty pricey. I bake our
bread, it is made with 1/3 fresh ground whole wheat flour and other
healthy ingredients - I guess that's not raw, but was wondering how
that would affect the diet?

One of my Silky Terriers is 12, two of them are 11 and one is 4. They
weigh between 9 and 13 lbs.

I am interested in learning how to combine what I have into a good
diet for them, what I might want to add to these ingredients and how
to improve their tooth health. (They do currently need cleaning rather
badly - will a raw diet with bones do the job, or should I go ahead
and get them cleaned?)

So... there is my situation, I'm looking forward to the ideas you all
have!

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (119)
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5.2. Re: New Member
Posted by: "Barb" behaven1@telus.net behavensnikko
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:51 pm ((PDT))

All sounds good except the bread. No grain products should be part of
their diet. Fruit & vaggies OK in small doses but not essential.
Meat,liver & bones sound great as well as raw eggs.Bones are a great
teeth cleaner. I check on a weekly basis & if there is a patch, I
scale it off!
Cheers/Barb
Behaven Shelties--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Dunster
<cedunster@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> I have been active with animals my entire life and have bred and
shown
> dogs for many years. However, a few years back I retired from the
dog
> showing and breeding to spend more time with my family.
>
>
> ~ Carol
> _____________
> Carol Dunster
> cedunster@...
>

Messages in this topic (119)
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5.3. Re: New Member
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:07 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carol,

I would wait a while on the tooth cleaning. You'd be surprised how quickly
they will clean up once fed properly.

Sounds like you have a few good sources for your supplies. Free organs and
any other beef meat you can get your hands on is great. Ask for the tripe
also. Best leave the bones behind tho unless they have tons of meat left,
which is doubtful coming from a butcher.

Overall you want to concentrate on feeding lots of meat from a variety of
protein sources and body parts, a little edible bone (around 10% of the
overall diet) and of course organs, also around 10%, liver being half of
that amount. Eggs are great but not a huge portion of the diet. Oh, and no
bread! :)

Chicken isn't necessary, but is a good starting place and has nice soft
easily digestible bones for little guys like yours. You might want to use
chicken occasionally for bone intake and concentrate on meaty meals from
other sources....beef, pork, lamb, venison, etc.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Carol Dunster" <cedunster@centurytel.net>

Messages in this topic (119)
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5.4. Re: New Member
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:58 pm ((PDT))

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:07:23 -0700, you wrote:

>Overall you want to concentrate on feeding lots of meat from a variety of
>protein sources and body parts, a little edible bone (around 10% of the
>overall diet) and of course organs, also around 10%, liver being half of
>that amount. Eggs are great but not a huge portion of the diet. Oh, and no
>bread! :)

What sort of quantities of meat/chicken necks would I start with?
Would it benefit them to have the large bones just to chew on, there
is a bit of meat on them, they are not completely cleaned off. Of
course they are pretty huge for my little guys. :)
>
>Chicken isn't necessary, but is a good starting place and has nice soft
>easily digestible bones for little guys like yours. You might want to use
>chicken occasionally for bone intake and concentrate on meaty meals from
>other sources....beef, pork, lamb, venison, etc.

Is it beneficial to use different meats, or would the same thing
regularly be fine? I have those great sources for quality beef offal,
but would have to pay for anything else. I don't mind that, of course,
and plan to buy chicken necks.
~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (119)
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5.5. Re: New Member
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:26 pm ((PDT))

Start with 2-3% of their ideal adult weight per day. I wouldn't waste time
or money on chicken necks. If you are going to feed chicken, you want to
feed through an entire chicken. Necks are far too small and bony. You can
begin with only chicken, then slowly add in some of the beef, but overall
there is benefit to variety in body parts and proteins.

There is no benefit to chewing on large bones devoid of meat. That only
serves to wear and break teeth. If there is some meat, you could let them
have the fun and exercise of removing it, but once that is accomplished, the
bone needs to go!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Carol Dunster" <cedunster@centurytel.net>

Messages in this topic (119)
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6a. Re: what to do
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:51 pm ((PDT))

Aren't there any petsitters or friends who can feed them? Cats don't
do rotting food well, they're not designed to be able to stomach it.

Shannon H.

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:11 pm ((PDT))

It really depends on where you live. I'm in Michigan and the only
places I can find unenhanced chicken is where they sell Amish and
they're $1.79/lb at the cheapest for whole chickens. :-P Kinda
sickening.

Shannon H.

>Unehnanced chickens aren't too hard to
> find or too expensive for that matter.

Messages in this topic (6)
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7b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:40 pm ((PDT))

> Itchiness is not always diet related. It is one of the most common signs
> of inhaled allergies which kibble or no will still be an issue. IF you get
> the dogs onto a quality diet that enhances the immune system and does not
> depress it will help. Like another poster, I do not concern myself with
> enhanced meats. If I can get the "pure" stuff then I buy it. If all I have
> at that time is enhanced then I feed that. It's not my preference but I see
> no ill effects in my pets.
>

Karen

>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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8. {Raw Feeding} Update on Max
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:37 pm ((PDT))

I wanted to update all of you on Max, and take a minute to personally
thank Chris O and Michael and Anne Moore for helping me!! First,
history just in case you don't know the fully situation.

Max is my 8 will be 9 this November German Shepherd. He's been bald
from back behind his withers down to his tail, down all 4 legs, on his
belly. He has chewed himself raw in places where they were bleeding
and he had goopy eyes. I could see fleas on him, so I asked for help
off list.

Following the advice, I gave him one vial of Frontline, just him no
one else. Got some Fish Oil, giving him 4 in the morning and 4 in the
evening. He won't take it like my other dogs, so I have to snip the
end of it off and put the oil on a pork chop, or chicken or cheese.
But I'm making sure that he does get it! And I have ordered some DE.
Well the results are that he's stopped itching quite so much, and he's
starting to grow his hair back. His eyes have stopped getting so
icky... he's getting better.

So, thank you so much to Chris O and Ann Moore for all the advice that
you've given me....I really do appreciated it!!

Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

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9a. Cheap meat
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:49 pm ((PDT))

I've noticed a handful of posts from people mentioning they don't
think they can afford variety in the prey-model diet.

I just wanted to say that there are probably avenues out there that
you haven't considered.

Don't underestimate the value of Craigslist and Freecycle, especially
if you live within driving distance of a major city. I didn't expect
much from my Freecycle post but I scored something like 10 lbs of
LAMB, and another 10 or 12 lbs of miscellaneous freezerburned meat.
Free for the taking -- of course I have to count gas cost to pick it
up, but even considering that, I got the meat for a LOT less than my
$1/lb budget.

My Craigslist posts have attracted offers so far from a small poultry
processor; the owner of a frozen-food locker who often finds himself
tossing people's frozen goods; a hunter wondering could I use deer,
elk or bear; a fellow completely emptying his freezer; and a nice lady
who's giving me the legs and innards of the two goats she'll be
butchering in late Oct. Some of these people are trading me for
homebaked goods and some just want me to take the stuff.

I've had to turn down some of the offers because of distance, of
course, but it was still far more fruitful than I imagined. Don't have
a freezer to store all your swag? Check Craigslist for that too. My
husband just hauled home a FREE freezer for me -- but we routinely see
them selling for about $50 in the Seattle area.

I think Giselle had the list of creative ways to get inexpensive meat
and maybe she'll link to it for us. But don't overlook the potential
for networking with people who have what you need, and don't need it
themselves.

www.craigslist.org

www.freecycle.org

Kristin

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Cheap meat
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:39 pm ((PDT))

> Don't underestimate the value of Craigslist and Freecycle,
especially
> if you live within driving distance of a major city. I didn't expect
> much from my Freecycle post but I scored something like 10 lbs of
> LAMB, and another 10 or 12 lbs of miscellaneous freezerburned meat.
> Free for the taking -- of course I have to count gas cost to pick it
> up, but even considering that, I got the meat for a LOT less than my
> $1/lb budget.

****
Can you share how you worded your ads? Did you state what you were
using the meat for? I'd love to go this route, but don't want to
attract the wrong attention and it sounds like you must have done it
right to get the responses you did.

I'd also like to offer the suggestion of using word-of-mouth. I've
been telling everyone I know about feeding raw and to keep me in mind
when cleaning out their freezers. By doing that, my friend, whose
husband is bird/game hunter and fisherman, told me she had duck,
pheasant and fish in her freezer she wanted to get rid of. As the
saying goes, birds of a feather flock together...so I now have
an "in" with a group of sportsmen.

Thanks,
Alicia

Messages in this topic (2)
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10. Day 4 of Raw and WILD!
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:12 pm ((PDT))

We are in our 4th day of feeding raw (whole bone-in chicken breasts)
and one of our dogs seems to be adjusting...too well, if that's
possible. Moose, almost 3yo GSD woke up this morning with more
energy then he knew what to do with. He's also been sleeping very
sound throughout the night and he looks forward to meal times with
great anticipation - not so much when he was given kibble - take it
or leave it attitude. My husband had to take him out to do the off-
site farm chores by himself so he could run some of the "extra"
energy off. Hubby said he took off across the cow pasture running
and jumping like one of the calves. He was driving me nuts while I
was trying to do my chores - bouncing around, back-talking when told
to leave the barn, couldn't maintain his sit-stay for more than 30
seconds. He is normally a very active, obedient dog, but today he is
absolutely crazy with "joy"? Is it my imagination, or could raw
really be affecting him this way so soon? Or visa-versa, was kibble
slowing him down that much? His shedding and itcy skin are still an
issue, but I expect that will take a good month or more to go away
(hopefully). Haven't heard any of the belching from him like we have
in the past either. Just curious if anyone else had similar
experiences...

Thanks,
Alicia

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
Posted by: "Maiakitas@aol.com" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:16 pm ((PDT))

Steff,

I can sympathize with you about your dogs. I am in a similar boat. I am
feeding two, 2 1/2 year old Akitas raw and still new to the whole process. I've
only been doing it since July 1st, but I started with dogs that had no health
issues, and did not expect to see any dramatic changes. I truly in my heart
believe that a raw diet is the way to go. My bitch, Bailey took to it like the
proverbial fish to water and is doing great. My male, Beau, on the other hand is
dropping weight. I have kept him on the thinner side when not in the show ring,
so he did not need to loose weight, but now looks terrible. He is white and
now has terrible tearing and staining, which he never had any tearing prior to
a raw diet. I too have read the posts about allergies, detoxing, etc., but he
had no allergy issues prior. His skin is fine. He has currently blown his coat
so I can't judge his coat quality, but he does not seem to get any real
pleasure from eating the raw. He misses many meals, and I have raised Akitas for
almost 25 years, so I'm not one of these people that has a problem with a dog
missing meals, but when you seem to miss more meals than you want to eat, that
is a reason to be concerned. He has been to the vet for a complete checkup and
blood panel, and everything is fine, so I know he is not sick. He is a really
big boy and is down to 105 lbs. I had planned to show him this fall, and I am
seriously entertaining putting him on Innova Evo and adding raw to it to see
how that does to get some weight back on him. I am fortunate that everything I
have given both dogs seems to agree with them and I have tried giving him
fattier meats. Like tonight, I put a pork loin down for him and he didn't touch
it. His sister ate hers with gusto and would have been more than happy to have
more. The times I have gotten him to eat the most has been when his meat was
seared and sprinkled with garlic. I don't baby him when I put the food down. He
gets it. I leave to go do whatever. He has about 10 minutes to eat it, if he
doesn't, I pick it up until the next meal. Dogs are fed in either separate pens
or crates.

Again, maybe the experienced people can offer suggestions. I'd love to keep
him on straight raw, but not sure I can. Help! :o)

Regards,
Carla

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11b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
Posted by: "ada" mom2moz@yahoo.com mom2moz
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:40 pm ((PDT))

--- Maiakitas@aol.com wrote:
> The times I have gotten him to eat the most
> has been when his meat was seared and sprinkled with
> garlic.
> Carla

Hi Carla,

Have you tried offering your big boy his meals frozen?
My Mozart will only eat IF it's frozen/partially
frozen. He just can't stand the feel of raw in his
mouth, and this is his fifth(?) year. I doubt he'll
change. One can almost see the "eeewwwww!" as he
snurls his lip. He also subscribes to the
no-RAW-on-my-paws approach to meals, so goes to great
lengths manipulating his meat with his mouth and
feeding cloth. A riot to watch.

ada
mo (silkie/shih-tzu/maltese mutt) & abbie (yorkie)

"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole." ~ Roger Caras

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12a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:58 pm ((PDT))

Denise -
I was not clear on my description. She pushed on the foreleg from behind at the top of the leg where it connects to the body.
I was with my handler this weekend and we put all the pups on the table and took a close look. The forelegs on my girl appear to bow out.
I've reduced the calories and am allowing more activity. Am I going about this correctly?
Thanks, so much, Denise and everyone for sharing your knowledge:) This is the reason why this list is one of my favorites:) I positively can't live without it:)
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Denise Strother <denisestrother@yahoo.com> wrote:
Umm, am I to understand by that by "pushed on the forleg from behind"
you mean in the area of the knee? Denise

I do not see the legs bowing out but she pushed on the foreleg from
behind and it did give way more on my girl than on the other two boys.

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Messages in this topic (18)
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12b. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Caren OConnor <cavkist@...> wrote:
>
> Excess calcium from the bone is always excreted in the stool? Can
you confirm?

*** In rawfed pups? Yes, within reason. I'm not advocating a diet
really heavy in bone, but you can observe the phenomenon yourself by
looking at the stool. If you feed 10-15% bone, the stool will be
some shade of brown, from tan if you are feeding white meats, to
dark brownish black for red and organ meats. As you increase the
bone content, the stools lighten in color. If you feed a lot of
bone, the stools will be whitish and chalky.

*** Also, based on my own observations as well as talking with other
NR breeders, rawfed puppies seem to deal much better with "too much"
bone than kibblefed pups do with too much calcium. It is fairly well
documented that too much calcium in kibble does cause bony
abnormalities and pano, but rawfed pups seem to have fewer problems
with those things. A rawfeeding breeder who I respect very much has
observed bowing out in her own pups when she didn't feed enough
bone, but the problem corrected itself when she increased the bone
content.

*** So, I would evaluate the bone you are feeding and make sure that
it is at minimum 10% of the diet by weight, and preferably 15-20%.
This is nature's model, which I trust far more than any scientific
study. If you are feeding this amount of bone, I think diet is not
the cause. It may be that this is just a phase that she will grow
out of. Are there other rawfed pups from her litter?

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (18)
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12c. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Natalie -
Thanks for a sense of reason:) No, the pups, if in the wild, would not be given corn, etc.!
I'm feeding a variety of meats: chicken, lamb, fish, rabbit, and beef. I'm also giving liver and organ meats (gizzards, hearts, beef lung). Oh, and I have given some chicken necks.
I've been trying to follow the 80-10-10 ratio but have been told to increase the amount of bone and decrease the amount of calories, which I'm trying to do. I'm also trying to let them play more outside of their pen.
I learned much about puppy structure during that evaluation and even more about biases on feeding:) To be sure I will "keep my cards hidden" the next time I'm asked about what I feed my pups. I think that's sad but I feel it necessary in order to receive an unbiased evaluation.
That may be an oxymoron, is anything in dogs unbiased??:)
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

blue eyed <eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I'm not a breeder but I know a well known brand, considered premium, that has over 400 calories in 100g of dry puppy 'food'. Going by the recomendation on the pack my 10 month pup should be eating 530g per day. Thats over 2000 calories a day.

Im guessing but Im pretty sure there is not nearly that amount of calories in the amount of raw food he eats.

[She said a puppy in the wild would never be given the
quality and quantity of protein I'm feeding.]
Would it get corn, wheat, Sorghum and EC permitted anti-oxidants in the wild?

What are you feeding the pups now? How old are they?

Natalie

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Messages in this topic (18)
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13. First RAW WITH BONES served today!!
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

The first raw meal was a BONELESS SKINLESS chicken breast 2 days ago -
just to see if she'd EAT raw chicken... Silly me. My 20 month 46 lb
female pit devoured it.

So, today I bought a whole 4 lb raw chicken, and quartered it myself.
I gave her the quarter that included the drumstick. WOW! She LOVED
it! She really took her time, chewing the bones and everything really
well (unlike the inhalation I typically witness with the kibble) It
actually took her about 5 minutes to eat (instead of 30 seconds).

Raw feeding is just so LOGICAL..

I hope I'm not speaking too soon, but I THINK WE'VE SEEN THE LIGHT!!

Thanks everybody!!

Alex Dewey

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12097

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. what to do
From: Judy McCammon
1b. Re: what to do
From: Casey Post
1c. Re: what to do
From: Judy McCammon

2. Re: Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment
From: Meg Helmes

3a. Re: How long to let new puppy go without food?
From: Andrea

4a. Re: coughing and bloody stool
From: Andrea
4b. Re: coughing and bloody stool
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
From: Andrea
5b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: Constipation? Bone Blockage?
From: Andrea

7a. Pig stomach
From: Shannon Hully
7b. Re: Pig stomach
From: Andrea

8a. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: Cindy Marabito
8b. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: Heather

9a. Dry Skin but Feeding Raw
From: s_retzer
9b. Re: Dry Skin but Feeding Raw
From: Sandee Lee

10a. scared of bones
From: c.bednar
10b. Re: scared of bones
From: Sandee Lee
10c. Re: scared of bones
From: carnesbill
10d. Re: scared of bones
From: carolejc2007

11. A few problems with raw diet
From: suburbancow

12a. Is a chicken only diet OK?
From: skyli_19
12b. Re: Is a chicken only diet OK?
From: carnesbill

13a. Re: no poop is it time to panic?
From: Josephine Morningstar

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. what to do
Posted by: "Judy McCammon" fenstokebullmastiffs@yahoo.com fenstokebullmastiffs
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:15 am ((PDT))

am going away for 6 days and my raw fed cats are a problem. is there a way to leave their raw food out and have it be ok? I just hate the thought of leaving them kibble. They have never had kibble .

Regards,

Judy

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Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: what to do
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:55 am ((PDT))

> am going away for 6 days and my raw fed cats are a problem. is there a
> way to leave their raw food out and have it be ok? I just hate the
> thought of leaving them kibble. They have never had kibble .
>

For six days? No, there's no way to leave food out for six days and have it
be ok. If they've never eaten kibble, then it's not a safe option, either -
they may not recognize it as food and therefore won't eat it, which could
leave them open to the possibility of hepatic lipidosis.

Get a friend or neighbor to stop by and feed them while you're gone. Or
hire a pet sitter.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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1c. Re: what to do
Posted by: "Judy McCammon" fenstokebullmastiffs@yahoo.com fenstokebullmastiffs
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:30 am ((PDT))

thanks...that's what I was feeling comfortable with...sometimes it's getting input that helps secure your decision

Regards,

Judy McCammon

www.geocities.com/fenstokebullmastiffs

----- Original Message ----
From: Casey Post <mikken@neo.rr.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 12:52:07 PM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] what to do

Get a friend or neighbor to stop by and feed them while you're gone. Or
hire a pet sitter.

Casey

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Messages in this topic (3)
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2. Re: Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment
Posted by: "Meg Helmes" mhelmes@gmail.com meg_helmes
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:33 am ((PDT))

> hey, I had no idea you could get canned tripe..where do you get
that>?
*****
>LOL
>The issue isn't where, but why.
>If you can imagine it, canned tripe is cooked. Tripe isn't required at
>all; to feed it cooked is I think beyond the pale.
>Chris O

While the canned tripe is not exactly a health food (I agree with you there,
Chris), I use it as a means to get pills into my dog. Like I said before, it
is the only thing that she doesn't just suck off of a pill, and then spit
the pill out (she is a smart cookie). It is so "aromatic" that mixing canned
tripe with ground turkey makes the ground turkey become extra apealing, thus
assuring the whole mess will be scarfed down, including the all-important
meds. Sure beat stuffing them down her throat! =)
--
~Meg
*********************************************************
Children are for people who can't have dogs. ~Author Unknown

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Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: How long to let new puppy go without food?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:50 am ((PDT))

Sounds like he's trying, but maybe his jaw strength just isn't there yet. If you can find some
cornish game hens that would be good for him to start with. They are really tender so he
should be able to work through them. If you can't find game hens try giving him a bone in
breast with the meat super ribboned. Hope that helps, congrats on the new pup! Pug
puppies are so adorable!

Andrea

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rareimer1979" <rareimer@> wrote:

> > Tonight I offered him a chicken thigh without the skin, and I ribboned
> > it a bit to make it easier for him to eat, even cut a little chunk off
> > for him as well. He was very eager to eat it, dove right in and
> > worked on it, but actually never ATE much, if any. He sure tried
> > though! I offered it to him again later, and he tried again, but
> > still didn't actually consume any, I don't think.

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: coughing and bloody stool
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:11 am ((PDT))

It is possible that a bit of bone irritated your daschund's throat on the way down which is
causing him to cough. When you cut up leg quarters do you cut smaller than leg/thighs?
If the coughing doesn't go away and sounds like a honk you he might have kennel cough.

Bright red blood in the stool usually means there was some irritation on the way out.
Maybe the pups could do well with more meat and less bone in their diet.

A lot of dogs act like they are starving all day every day after they are switched to raw food.
Probably some fear that the food won't be there tomorrow or something. Sometimes it
goes away once the dog realizes that mom isn't going to change her mind and give him
doom nuggets again, sometimes it helps to feed at random times.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Garnaat" <cgar88@...> wrote:

> 1) My daschund started hard coughing early evening last night. He coughed
> through the night and is still coughing this morning. He does not cough
> anything up. This morning, he refused his small biscuit that he begs for
> every morning when I get on the computer. The coughing makes me think
> perhaps this could be bone lodged somewhere. Any advice as what to do? He
> seems fine other than the coughing (and refusing his morning biscuit).
>
> 2) My Yorkie passed stool with blood in it last night and this morning. The
> stool has gelatinous looking parts, and was stringy. Advice on this would
> be appreciated.
>
> 3) They seem to be hungry, wanting more. I am watching their weight and
> have no weight loss, so I think I am feeding sufficiently. Do others
> experience this "hungry" attitude?

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: coughing and bloody stool
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:04 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Garnaat" <cgar88@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello all,
> I've just started my 12lb Daschund and 8.5lb Yorkie on raw feed
about 2
> weeks ago. They love it! I have been feeding chicken leg
quarters, cut to
> their 2% of ideal weight amounts. The daschund gets a couple
small Wellness
> brand biscuit treats in the morning. The Yorkie likes to beg for
lunch meat
> bits in the late evening, scratching at the refrig for me to get
her some.
> Neither is interested in dry kibble any longer.
>
> I have several questions.
>
> 1) My daschund started hard coughing early evening last night.
> He coughed
> through the night and is still coughing this morning. ..... He
> seems fine other than the coughing (and refusing his
> morning biscuit).

I agree with Andrea on this. Either an irratated throat or possibly
kennel cough. Him feeling fine tells me that he is ok.

> 2) My Yorkie passed stool with blood in it last night and
> this morning. The
> stool has gelatinous looking parts, and was stringy.

This is not unusual for newly switched rawfed dogs. It will happen
less and less as time goes by.

> 3) They seem to be hungry, wanting more. I am watching
> their weight and
> have no weight loss, so I think I am feeding sufficiently.

Again, not unusual for newly switched dogs. Sometimes the very
small dogs need a little more food than 2%/adult weight. You willl
get the volume worked out in time. It's nothing critical.

To re-emphasize something Andrea asked and it is important. Don't
cut the leg bone or thigh bone in two. You can seperate the two
bones but don't cut the individual bones. That COULD lead to sharp
edges that COULD irritate the throat or intestines.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:12 am ((PDT))

Maybe it is time to do an elimination diet, yes? Unehnanced chickens aren't too hard to
find or too expensive for that matter. Foster Farms chickens are unenhanced and when
not on sale are only around $1.19/lb here in Central California. Stock up on just
unenhanced chicken and feed nothing but that for several months. It sometimes takes
months for old allergens to get out of the system, so if they don't clear up right away don't
blame the chicken just yet. During that time see if you can find some unenhanced pork. If
the symptoms don't go away/get worse with chicken, next try pork. If you try chicken,
pork, beef, goat, etc. and always see the same reaction I think you need to look at
environmental reasons again. Some dogs might have an allergy to a raw protein, but it is
really rare. It must be frustrating, but try and designate one day a week where you go in
search of new food sources (it is often times really fun). HTH

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Steffani Martino" <yahoogroups800@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, so I know there have been several "I feel like giving up" threads
> lately, but add me to the list. While I have been really trying to avoid
> trying to go back to finding a really good, high quality pet food, it seems
> as if feeding raw has become more and more of a hassle for my 2 dogs. I
> have been feeding raw for almost a year.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT))

"Steffani Martino" <yahoogroups800@...> wrote:
While I have been really trying to avoid
> trying to go back to finding a really good, high quality pet food,
*****
Understanding that there is no such thing should make the decision
somewhat easier.

> Firstly, I am having a harder and harder time finding non-enhanced
meat
*****
Many of us choose not to feed enhanced meats; where do you live and
where have you been looking? There's a fabulous "source message"
that reappears from time to time, perhaps someone (Giselle?) will
repost it for you.

> because both of my dogs have been suffering allergies majorly and
Ive pretty
> much ruled out any environmental or household irritants, so I know
it must
> either be the type of meat, or the fact that it has been injected
with
> something.
*****
If you can identify one meat without enhancement that you can rely on
for several months, you should get a pretty good idea about what dogs
are responding to what. It's unlikely unless they are related that
they would suffer from the same "allergies".

I get most of our meat from the supermarket and a local meat
> market and it seems as if EVERYTHING now is enhanced!
*****
I doubt your only choices are the local super and organic. There's a
great deal of space between these extremes.

nor do I have the time to be going all over
> town to hunt it out as I am recently married to my new business!
*****
Yes, there's a certain amount of responsibility one has to muster up
in order to feed real food. It doesn't have to be so insufferable as
you make it sound though. Perhaps sorting things out, making a list
and checking it twice, working to apply a tiny bit of plan to your
personal life can give you some space.

I've even
> tried the local co-op foods, but they have a very limited selection
and one
> of my dogs does not like the ground stuff, so its not worth the
time or
> price.
*****
Perhaps you might make your needs and preferences known to the co-
op. You're right about the ground stuff: hardly worth the time or
price. Alas, very much the same conclusion you can apply to "really
good high quality pet food."

So, one of my dogs seems to only have allergies to certain types of
> meat and is very un-picky...she will eat anything, which is good.
The other
> dog seems to have allergies to everything and anything
*****
I think these are bigger and different issues than "food allergies"
but certainly getting rid of the enhanced meats is a step in tyhe
right direction. A dog that is allergic to everything has got immune
system problems that go way deeper than food. Changing back to
commercial pet food will nominally make your life easier but will do
NADA to address the issues your dogs have.

I know
> that picky eaters are made, however its frustrating when
your "child" does
> not want to eat for days at a time, so I usually give in, in
addition to not
> having the time play games over food.
*****
No, you should not have to waste time on food games. Identify a
healthy, unenhanced meat and feed it and if the dog doesn't eat
collect it up. Eating is not a game. It can be big fun but it isn't
a game.

My boy dog has just never gained the
> interest in raw meat and enjoyment in eating that his sister has.
*****
As long as you permit his indifference to get in the way, it will.
Additionally of course, a healthy dog is more likely to enjoy its
food, so addressing his larger systemic issues will almost certainly--
eventually--increase his dining satisfaction. At this point, eating
when he is hungry is your goal.

Between
> the constant itching all over and runny eyes, Im frustrated that my
dogs are
> not as "seemingly" healthy as they seemed before on pet food. I
dont know
> what is in the pet food that prevents or even hides these issues,
but my
> dogs didnt suffer on kibble.
*****
So that makes kibble better? My guess is your dogs are finally
getting fuel healthy enough to try to fix what's going on. Getting
rid of what ails ya (or trying) is better than not getting rid of
it. Stopping the behaviors is not fixing them.

So, as of right now, the only advantage that
> I am seeing to feeding raw is their clean teeth!
*****
There's probably additional advantageous stuff going on inside though.

> In addition, just to cover all bases, I have tried numerous
homepathic
> remedies. I have tried simple things such as oatmeal baths,
lavender, itch
> sprays, etc. My dogs have not been vaccinated in over a year, nor
have they
> been given any medications, etc. that are not natural products.
*****
No vax in one year after a life and generations of vax is a step in
the right direction but it's not the only step. You don't say how
long you've been trying homeopathic remedies or what they are but it
sounds to me like right now you are frantic for more time and less
stress in your life and you are looking for immediate solutions where
there can be none. Regaining--obtaining--good health is rarely as
easy as one hopes. Often there are not speedy answers.

I recommend you find one unhanced meat to feed. I recommend you
offer the picky eater one meal at a time and don't cater to his
pickiness. I recommend you not worry about menu variety for a
while. I recommend you think beyond your local supermarket. I
encourage you to control your urge to do it all perfectly. There are
probably resources that can help you prioritize and streamline
without sacrificing quality.

You can feed a raw diet without killing yourself in the process. You
will not feed healthier food by switching to "high quality" kibble.
You need to step back from the individual issues your dogs have and
work to treat the whole rather than the parts. By taking the time to
do the right--and effective--thing, you can avoid the huge
frustration of having to do a bunch of wrong--ineffective--things
over and over.

And I really really recommend you take a deep breath or three.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:31 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Steffani Martino"
<yahoogroups800@...> wrote:
>
> Firstly, I am having a harder and harder time finding
> non-enhanced meat
> because both of my dogs have been suffering allergies majorly
> and Ive pretty
> much ruled out any environmental or household irritants, so I
> know it must
> either be the type of meat, or the fact that it has been
> injected with
> something.

I think you are wasting your time worrying about food allergies,
enhancements, and homeopathic "cures". Assuming you are feeding
meat, bones, and organs only and not a lot of other junk (veggies,
fruits, etc), I don't think your problem is a food allergy.

I strongly suspect that you have been feeding non-enhanced meats for
a good period of time and still have the same problems. In spite of
what others think, I have never been convinced that enhancements
causes any problems at all. They are saline solutions and broth.
Neither are dangerous and millions of people eat those meats every
day with no adverse effects. Forget enhanced meats as being a
problem for your dogs.

I have never been convinced that anyone has ever been cured of
anything by homeopathy. Take your dogs to a veteranary
dermatologist and find out whats really wrong with them and treat
it. Right now you are just going in circles. Take the bull by the
horn so to speak and do something serious about their problem. The
raw diet is not the problem.

One more note: Don't let your picky dog determine his own diet.
Thats like letting a 2 year old child determine his diet. Give him
proper food and see to it that he eats it.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Constipation? Bone Blockage?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:12 am ((PDT))

This is the first time he's had pork, yes? I would imagine it just upset his stomach. The rib
was boneless? I can't picture a boneless rib right now, but it just may have been too much
new food too fast for him. Depending on how he acts you might want to fast him for a day
and then go back to chicken. When you add pork, give him a little pork with a chicken meal
so his tummy gets used to it. Let us know how he does.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Kathie Middlemiss <geekgirl717@...> wrote:

> He's had nothing but chicken quarters/half chickens for a week and then
> this morning I gave him two pieces of boneless pork rib.
>
> Tonight, he's acting like he may be constipated or something. And when
> I let him out to go, I went out with him and (sorry if this is TMI) he
> farted really really loudly and then sat in the 'poo position' for quite
> some time. He came back up on the deck and rubbed his bum on the
> surface like worm dogs do, though his stools are worm-free.

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Pig stomach
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:13 am ((PDT))

Hmm, I tried to post this but I got an error message so if it gets
posted twice I appologize!

I just found a pig stomach in my freezer that I evidently bought before
I got the dog and since we're now starting pork I thawed it out to feed
him. My question is: is it organ or meat?

If it's just meat then I won't worry about trying to find it again
since it isn't something I see frequently at the store but if it's
organ then maybe it's worth looking for specifically again at some
point. :-)

Shannon H.

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Pig stomach
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:29 am ((PDT))

The stuff you get at the store has been boiled and bleached for our protection. I don't know
how much it offers nutritionally, but it becomes a fun chew toy. Definitely not something to
spend doggy dollars on, though.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Shannon Hully" <summerwolf@...> wrote:

> I just found a pig stomach in my freezer that I evidently bought before
> I got the dog and since we're now starting pork I thawed it out to feed
> him. My question is: is it organ or meat?

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "Cindy Marabito" doggirl1@earthlink.net rowdycowgirl50
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:13 am ((PDT))

I have a pit bull rescue and they all eat 100% raw. They do great on
the diet and I've actually noticed more of a calmness among dogs and
pit bulls on a 100% raw diet as opposed to processed foods. There is
a trainer in northern California whose name I do not know who will
not train dogs who are not eating 100% raw diet..Cindy

Messages in this topic (10)
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8b. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "Heather" heather_b_bunny@yahoo.com heather_b_bunny
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:04 am ((PDT))

I was raised around a pit bull who was fed RAW (this was back in the 70s) and
Lumpy was the sweetest kindest dog I knew - I remember being shocked hearing
that Pit Bulls were dangerous animals and should all be destroyed.

As for diet making them blood thirsty - I can only speak to experiments done
when I was Pre-med in college and we studied rats - one of my classmates took 2
rats that were very docile and by shortfeeding them quite rapidly (in a matter
of about 7 days) one of the rats killed the other to get enough food. I think
that might be something that is done by the people who raise the Pits to fight
- it's a possibility that I can see happening. I think any species even a
beagle could become blood thirsty if to fight for it's food - regardless if it
was RAW or the other that shall not be named!

I think your mother should get all the support she can to keep her new puppy
happy and healthy.

-Heather

> Can anyone give me examples of Pit Bulls being fed a raw diet who are
> not ferocious killers? Or is my father right? They are very
> experienced and responsible dog owners, but they have never owned a
> Pit Bull.

The Homeopath and mommy to Declan

Women who behave rarely make history -

Messages in this topic (10)
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9a. Dry Skin but Feeding Raw
Posted by: "s_retzer" s_retzer@yahoo.com s_retzer
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:05 am ((PDT))

Hi Everyone

I have a friend that converted her 2 year old lab to raw this past
June. Strangely, the dog now suffers from dry skin/dandruff. The dog
did not have this kind of dry skin prior to the raw. She also
mentioned though the skin is dry, the dog does NOT seem to be itchy.

I don't know what to tell her as everything I know and have
experienced myself, the fur and skin of raw animals is much improved!

I realize it could be something else in the dog's environment, but
does anyone have any experience similar to this and could make a
suggestion on where to start investigating a solution? She mentioned
she will switch from pill form salmon oil to liquid, but I am thinking
there probably needs to be something else done to eliminate it entirely.

Thanks in advance,
Sarah

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Dry Skin but Feeding Raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:59 am ((PDT))

Do you know what she is feeding, Sarah? Too much chicken? Not enough meat
and fat?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "s_retzer" <s_retzer@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. scared of bones
Posted by: "c.bednar" itsagilitytime@aol.com c.bednar
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:34 am ((PDT))

Hello All, I am a total newbie! I have 3 dogs and I really want to feed
raw. I am terrified of the damage bones can do. While starting my
research I have found so many horror stories. I am not sure if I am
willing to take the risk. I don't agree with K***le but my dogs are
healthy right now. Can anyone tell me what is the safest way to feed
bones? Any input will be greatly appreciated, and I am so glad I found
this group. Carmie

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: scared of bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:07 am ((PDT))

Carmie,

The safest way to feed bones is when they are slathered with meat!! And raw
of course.

We are well aware of the "horror stories" but have found them to be lacking
in detail and fact. On the other hand, this group has close to 10,000
members and countless numbers of dogs successfully eating raw *meaty* bones
without damage!

You've come to the right place...stick around, read through the rawfeeding
myths, look at Kevin's recipe page to visualize the many healthy dogs eating
real food...
http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "c.bednar" <itsagilitytime@aol.com>

Messages in this topic (4)
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10c. Re: scared of bones
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:31 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "c.bednar" <itsagilitytime@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello All, I am a total newbie! I have 3 dogs and I really want
> to feed
> raw. I am terrified of the damage bones can do.

Dogs/wolves have been eating bones for millions of years. Most of
the horror stories you hear can't stand up to scrutiny. Also most
of the stories you hear are "my wife's coworker's husband's
brother's best friend's nextdoor neighbor's uncle had a dog
that ....". You almost never hear "my dog ....."

Don't worry. All of us here have been feeding bones almost daily to
many many dogs for many many years. We wouldn't do it if it was
dangerous.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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10d. Re: scared of bones
Posted by: "carolejc2007" mooska2me@sbcglobal.net carolejc2007
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> Also most
> of the stories you hear are "my wife's coworker's husband's
> brother's best friend's nextdoor neighbor's uncle had a dog
> that ....". You almost never hear "my dog ....."
>
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale

LOL. That was really funny Bill!

Carole

Messages in this topic (4)
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11. A few problems with raw diet
Posted by: "suburbancow" lizzieodonnell@houston.rr.com suburbancow
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

I've been feeding my 19 wk old German shepherd puppy a raw diet since
about the third week he's been home (11 wks). I asked on another
message board about this problem and they said I shouldn't be feeding
my puppy a raw diet and that I sohuld wait til he's an adult.

I took my pup out to play with the other dogs and he's bouncy and
playful and acting normal but in the 15 or so minutes I was out there
he peed three normal-length times. I always thought he drank a little
too much water than normal dogs.

I took my pup for his third set of shots about two weeks ago so it has
nothing to do with an reaction from the shots I'm sure. His poop is
also very small and from what I gather it's somewhat liquidy because I
can see circular areas in the concrete from where he pooped. They
disappear really fast... I saw one of them and it was dark but not
black, and it had an odd smell to it. It didn't smell like normal
poop. Smelled very strange. Are we allowed to post pictures of poop
here? If I can I'd like to go out and try to take a picture of it so
someone can tell me what's going on.

The person on the other message board suggested it may be a UTI or
something wrong with his kidneys so I should go to the vet and ask for
a urine check, kidney check, and some bloodwork. I'm thinking of
calling my vet about this if he pees a lot again today.

One last thing.. I'm thinking about changing my vet for these
reasons... Please tell me if they're valid or if I'm just being paranoid:

1.) Regarding my pup's temperature. My vet said his temp was slightly
elevated because he was scared of being in his office. It was 102
during the second visit and 103 during the last visit. He also peed on
me when I went last time when they were taking his temperature
probably from being scared but I'm sure a regular temperature would be
101 and that 103 is quite high.

2.) The vet gave the pup a physical exam only the first time I went
(which was his second set of shots). He looked at his eyes, ears,
teeth, smoothed his hand down his body, checked the groin area, and
expressed his glands. During the third set of shots I didn't even see
the vet, the vet tech administered the shots and didn't check anything
but his temp.

3.) He received rabies and DHLPP (I tihnk that's the acronym) in the
same shot. The vet tech shot half the shot in one leg and half the
shot in the other and I was really wondering what that was all about...

Should I change my vet? And does what I described sound like a UTI or
some issue with his kidneys?

Please tell me if I'm doing anything wrong because I am 100% open to
any advice you guys have. Sorry this post was so long but every other
board tells me to go to the Raw feeding group on Yahoo rather than
help me out. Thanks in advance and tell me if I missed anything or if
I need to explain anything more.

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Is a chicken only diet OK?
Posted by: "skyli_19" NRB19@aol.com skyli_19
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:50 am ((PDT))

I have been feeding raw for about a month now but Maggie is really only
getting chicken. A thigh and a breast or various half to one pound
mixes each day. I can't afford anything else right now (new house,
underestimated bills, in over head) but have managed to keep her on
chicken parts each day (sometimes organs but not often). Is she getting
enough nutrition? She certainly isn't complaining and seems to be
keeping her weight. I picked up beef ribs and turkey necks for cheap,
once or twice, so that gives her a little bit of a mix but mostly it is
just chicken. I've also noticed that she likes apples, bananas,
zucchini and will eat peach slices (all raw) if i drop them. Is this
ok? It doesn't bother me but wanted to check with you all to be sure it
isn't a problem. Once I get my financial legs back under me I will get
more of the good stuff, but for now I want to be sure I'm not depriving
her of needing nutrients.

Nicole & Maggie

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: Is a chicken only diet OK?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "skyli_19" <NRB19@...> wrote:
>
> Is she getting
> enough nutrition?

Probably not. Look around, there are ways to get cheap meat. It
takes a few months to learn how to shop for raw fed dogs. Buy in
bulk, its cheaper. CHeck with meat wholesalers. Check with
butchers to see if you can get their scraps. Check with hunter
friends to see what you can get from them. Scan the newspaper for
sales.

> I picked up beef ribs and turkey necks for cheap,
> once or twice, so that gives her a little bit of a mix but mostly
> it is
> just chicken.

Cool, that helps. Try a little harder. Pork is often pretty cheap
and easy to digest.

> I've also noticed that she likes apples, bananas,
> zucchini and will eat peach slices (all raw) if i drop them.
> Is this ok?

It's ok in that it won't hurt her but they will give her no
nutrition.

> Once I get my financial legs back under me I will get
> more of the good stuff, but for now I want to be sure I'm
> not depriving
> her of needing nutrients.

Just put forth a little more effort in finding cheap meats and I'm
sure she will do fine.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: no poop is it time to panic?
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:29 pm ((PDT))

On 9/29/07, Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Sounds like she did poop, though, right? Depending on the size of dog you
> have,

great pyrenees. 29 inches at the shoulders weight is 125 lbs. (service dog
work built more muscle then the breed normally carries.

the poo
> sounds just about right to me. Raw fed dogs poo a whole lot less than
> ki**le fed dogs.
> Don't worry, nothing is wrong.
>
> As far as refusing to eat anything but ground, don't let her.

this was right after a pork brisket bone. and the other smaller bones with
it.. more bone then she is normally getting. I usually dont let her have
it.. i watch and let her take the meat off it.. and then take it from her
(knowing that bone with no meat on it is not that great a thing) BUT i got
called away urgently befoer i could take the bone.. so she ate it.. with no
meat around it.. part of my panic.

You're the owner and she's
> the dog. Give her real food and if she doesn't eat it, maybe she'll
> change her mind at the
> next meal. Just be firm.

I have tried that in the past.. she went 4 days without eating.. since i
need her to do service dog work. thats not an option. without her being up
to speed for her work. it puts me at risk. death is too likely an outcome
for ME then for her.

thanks though

also. i checked back every couple of hours and then wham all the responses
finally show up today.. gmail or yahoo.. needs a laxative.

OH.. she had a poop last night also.. no bone in it. but dark.. But she had
eaten some beef liver the night after the bone meal. so im hoping that was
that.

because she goes into stores and all with me.. i need her to pooey in the
morning (i only feed at night) and usually that works out okay. except the
last pork bone meal thru that off really bad.. I can not go into a store
without her. its not a case of *leave her at home do the shopping*. the only
thing that comes close to doing what she does. but much more delayed as in
response to past events. is the oxygen saturation machine in Hospitals. i
cant drag that with me. it only shows what happens AFTER the event.. and
Heather alerts just as it starts ( i also dont go slowly down in O2 sats. i
crash) so i really really depend on her to be tip top shape and can not
*stick it out* with her.

but she pooped last night. a couple of hours after her evening meal.. which
she cleaned up.. it was beef hamburger, beef burger with organ (kidney /
liver ) and green tripe (cow gut, lung and spleen)

at least the stinky poozes have ended.. they were so rank that in the middle
of the night i thought she had died. (dogs when they die their bowls let
go) she is 9.6 yrs old. and the other sdog here died suddenly just keeled
over dead. his heart had exploded.

--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12096

There are 16 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: ginny wilken
1b. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1c. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: T Smith
1d. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: susan holbeck
1e. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: Denise Strother
1f. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: Karen Swanay
1g. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: john payne

2a. Re: no poop is it time to panic?
From: Shannon Hully

3a. How long to let new puppy go without food?
From: rareimer1979
3b. Re: How long to let new puppy go without food?
From: merril Woolf

4a. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
From: Cdandp2@aol.com
4b. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
From: sarahfalkner
4c. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
From: Karen Swanay

5. Frustrated and cannot find any answers
From: Steffani Martino

6. coughing and bloody stool
From: Carol Garnaat

7a. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
From: merril Woolf

Messages
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1a. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:43 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 29, 2007, at 8:22 PM, aqualitybeagles wrote:

Oh, geez, no. These guys are dogs, like any other, and respond to
gentle training. They have a strong desire to please, and will pick
up on whatever is encouraged, however subliminally. Treat them nicely
and you will have great dogs. As has been said here many times, a
dog's prey drive is totally independent of what is fed.

Examples? My big old couch potato Tomo, raised in kindness, switched
to raw at four, now 12, has never had much prey drive. He'll eat his
chicken in plain view of "his" chickens in the yard. He leaves them
alone, preferring not to be bothered by them - he simply turns and
walks away if they come up to him. My girlfriend's two dogs, related
to him and also rawfed sweeties who bother nothing. And any number of
lovely pit bulls owned by folks on the list, who eat with their
packmates in perfect harmony.

I hope your parents prove their experience and responsibility by
feeding this dog properly and not worrying about how "different" she
is - because she's not.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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1b. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:39 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/29/2007 8:45:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
aqualitybeagles@yahoo.com writes:

Laura,

first and foremost.. Pit bulls are DOGS.. there is nothing new or different
about them.

Pit bulls are NOT terrible mean vicious dogs.. They are loving, loyal and
devoted family members. They have been bred to be naturally aggressive towards
other dogs, this can NOT be trained out of them, but it CAN be controlled. And
a pit bull should NEVER show aggression towards a human being... ever.

I have a raw fed pit bull, he's been raw fed for 4ish years now (can't
remember if it's 4 or 5 years.. lol). He's still the same sweet guy, slightly
older, but no worse for wear. At 11 years old he still doesn't have a single grey
hair and if you didn't see the little fatty cyst on his rear leg you might
think he's still a pup. He doesn't bounce as high, but he still bounces very
well (i'm sure your parents will find out sooner rather than later that pit bulls
have springs).

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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1c. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:17 am ((PDT))

I would think anyone experienced would know that a diet doesn't make a dog a
blood thirsty killer :-)
i wish i could help you but i am new to raw; I know that raw won't do that.
i do hope others can help you.
Take care
Trina

On 9/29/07, aqualitybeagles <aqualitybeagles@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hello I am a member of this list since around April 07. I breed and
> show beagles. I am very happy with my choice to switch to a raw diet.
>
> However, my parents just adopted a VERY young Pit Bull puppy (younger
> than I would have liked, but that is beside the point and beyond my
> control). She has only had wormer so far (Thank God) and has been
> weaned onto crapinabag. She is mostly my mother's dog, my mother has
> seen the results of my feeding a raw diet and is ALL for feeding her
> new Pit Bull baby what is best for her - RAW! But, my father has this
> idea that feeding her a raw diet will make her blood thirsty and mean!
>
> Can anyone give me examples of Pit Bulls being fed a raw diet who are
> not ferocious killers? Or is my father right? They are very
> experienced and responsible dog owners, but they have never owned a
> Pit Bull.
>
> Is there anything different from feeding a raw diet to any other dog
> breed that I should be aware of?
>
> Thanks, Laura Peters
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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1d. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "susan holbeck" nu1edie@yahoo.com nu1edie
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:18 am ((PDT))

Oh my Gosh I laughed so hard when I read this! I have a Pit Bull and a Rottweiler both on RAW and let me tell you that these 2 are as gentle and non threatening as a new born kitten! I work at a k-8 school and my dogs are with me from time to time. The kids sit on them, lay with them, pull their ears, you name it! I did have one guy ask me this a few weeks ago. He is adverse to the whole raw thing anyway, but he was especially uneasy about the Pit on Raw. Same thing... Blood thirsty! Tell mom and dad to relax! Good luck to them!

Susan, Oz and Enda (the blood thirsty pit!)

aqualitybeagles <aqualitybeagles@yahoo.com> wrote:

"But, my father has this
idea that feeding her a raw diet will make her blood thirsty and mean!"

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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1e. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:19 am ((PDT))

I have a two year old Pitbull that was rescued off the street after
being hit by a car at about 5 mos old. She is rawfed and has been
since she came to me at about 9 mos old. My other two dogs are 5lb
Chihuahuas. They eat loose on towels and I have often seen one of the
Chi's actually standing with their rear end under her belly. My son's
girlfriend's 7lb Chi is here more often than not. I run a dog daycare
and she goes 5 days a week. I take her to the dog park also. Several
of my neighbors have outdoor cats that come in my yard regularly. If
we go outside and there's a cat there she will chase it if it runs,
but I can call her and she stops and comes to me. BTW, my yard isn't
fenced so it's not like she couldn't just keep going after it. If the
cat doesn't run, she doesn't do anything. I have even fostered kittens
that had to be bottle fed until they were old enough to wean. Does
this sound like a ferocious killer? Pits are usually high energy dogs
and plenty of exercise is very important for them. Bad behavior can be
contributed to by the frustration that lack of proper exercise causes.
These are very people oriented dogs usually. Lavender thinks she is a
45lb lap dog. Denise

Can anyone give me examples of Pit Bulls being fed a raw diet who are
not ferocious killers? Or is my father right? They are very
experienced and responsible dog owners, but they have never owned a
Pit Bull. Is there anything different from feeding a raw diet to any
other dog breed that I should be aware of?

Messages in this topic (8)
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1f. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:52 am ((PDT))

Just weighing in. I've had one APBT(rescued froma pit fighter BTW) , who
was older than everyone thought and I lost to cancer about 5 yrs ago, she
was raw fed. I had two American Staffordshire Terriers, Tank was raw fed
but I lost him to cancer too just a few months ago. Yeager was the first
dog I've owned that was raw fed from puppyhood. He's 4 now. He grew SLOW
and beautifully. Laying down muscle easily. He has a perfect gait,
beautiful head, amazing neck and shoulders. Looking back at his pictures,
he didn't have that ugly teenage phase because he grew slowly the way nature
intended.

How's his temperament? He's a certified therapy dog, he's a service dog and
CGC. He alerts to seizures and panic attacks. He plays with and is bossed
around by an 11 lb mini daschund. They both eat raw. We also have birds,
cats, and fish here. Everyone is alive and well. Yeager has been jumped 3
times by other dogs when we've been on walks. I *know* he could have torn
these dogs apart but he didn't. The urge to fight is NOT always there in
these dogs. The potential is there, but not all pits want to fight and not
all labs like water. Not all beagles give a hoot about rabbits either.

Feed the pup raw and tell your parents to worry more about socializing her
and how they vote than what her diet might do based on myth.

Karen and Yeager

>
>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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1g. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "john payne" brendajohn2823@yahoo.com brendajohn2823
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:36 am ((PDT))

we have 2 pit bulls and they have been raw feed for 2 yrs now. 10 grandkids and family members and friends are around them all the time. The lady across the sttreet comes and feeds them when we are out of town, which is alot. Our male AM Bulldog weighs 138lbs and hes bigger then her!!A funny story, last year i was @ the meat market and was talking to the clerk about raw feeding and this guy was orderinf from another clerk and he must have over heard me telling my clerk the dogs were pitbulls. and he looked @ me and proceeded to tell me the dogs were going to turn, they tasted blood etc, and finally i said, excuseme but i just heard you ordering 50 lbs of hot dogs for your kids cuz the love to eat them RAW?? I then told him chances of his kids turning on him was alot greater then my dogs turning on me!! He cracked up laughing and said yea you're right. I still see this guy there and just last week he was telling me that his 13 yr old son is in trouble @ school and home all
the time, wont listen, etc. I told him it's those raw hotdogs!!!
on a note, the lady who feeds our dogs has 2 little ankle biters and she started raw,and her one dog will rip your throat out if you so much as walk by her while shes eating her food. I did on day and this dog jumped up on the back of the couch with a piece of a chicken wing in her mouth and was growling at me..badly!! Both our dogs have been taught from day 1..even when eating K****e..that we can at any time take they're food away. So they are use to a hand reaching for their food just in case.
Brenda

Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@gmail.com> wrote:
Just weighing in. I've had one APBT(rescued froma pit fighter BTW) , who
was older than everyone thought and I lost to cancer about 5 yrs ago, she
was raw fed. I had two American Staffordshire Terriers, Tank was raw fed
but I lost him to cancer too just a few months ago. Yeager was the first
dog I've owned that was raw fed from puppyhood. He's 4 now. He grew SLOW
and beautifully. Laying down muscle easily. He has a perfect gait,
beautiful head, amazing neck and shoulders. Looking back at his pictures,
he didn't have that ugly teenage phase because he grew slowly the way nature
intended.

Feed the pup raw and tell your parents to worry more about socializing her
and how they vote than what her diet might do based on myth.

Karen and Yeager

>
>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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2a. Re: no poop is it time to panic?
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:16 am ((PDT))

We just got our dog (a Greyhound) two weeks ago today and switched
him immediately to raw. He didn't poo for three and a half days
after the switch and I was starting to wonder if I should start to
worry (LOL) but he wasn't acting like he had to go so I kept my
calm. He went and I figured that things would start being on a daily
basis. (after all, my raw-fed cats go daily and my GSD who we lost
earlier this year, went twice a day on raw ('course he had a
digestive disease) so I figured that was a reasonable assumption.)

Well, he goes once every... 1.5-3 days still! It's amazing to me, he
doesn't seem in any discomfort and once every few days he has a poo
the size of what a kibble-fed dog has twice a day! LOL

It's all good, relax and enjoy. ;-)

As for refusing the food, I'm sure you've read it before but you need
to be the one who decides what she does and does not eat and when.
As she lacks opposable thumbs the only way she can make you do it her
way is if you give in to her demands. ;-)

Shannon H.

>
> > no poop for 4 days.. then very small poop..(one 3 in long fairly
dark, then
> > 2 in long softer much lighter color) and then i think its cause
i ON
> > PURPOSE gave her 1 cup cows milk.
> >
> > she is refusing meat with bones.. wants only ground up meat. and
has no
> > poop.. (but has strong appetite for ground up foot. or solid meat
with no
> > bone in it.. )
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. How long to let new puppy go without food?
Posted by: "rareimer1979" rareimer@gmail.com rareimer1979
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:19 am ((PDT))

Hi all...I just got my little pug puppy (Ozzy) today, and I think I'm
in love. :) He is 8 1/2 weeks old, weaned from his mother at 6
weeks, and was fed ki**le for the remaining 2 1/2 weeks until he came
here. I had planned to feed him raw, so that's all I have on hand.
Tonight I offered him a chicken thigh without the skin, and I ribboned
it a bit to make it easier for him to eat, even cut a little chunk off
for him as well. He was very eager to eat it, dove right in and
worked on it, but actually never ATE much, if any. He sure tried
though! I offered it to him again later, and he tried again, but
still didn't actually consume any, I don't think.

Do I just keep trying until he gets it? He is pretty small, and he is
interested and determined, but I'm not sure he's able to do it (yet.)
I know it's okay to let older dogs go 5 days or more without food
until they get it, but how about an 8 week old puppy? Should I offer
it to him cut up at first, or should I keep doing what I'm doing until
he figures it out?

Thanks!

Robyn & Ozzy (who loves his raw meat, if only he could figure out how
to eat it.)

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: How long to let new puppy go without food?
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rareimer1979" <rareimer@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all...I just got my little pug puppy (Ozzy) today, and I think I'm
> in love. :) He is 8 1/2 weeks old, weaned from his mother at 6
> weeks, and was fed ki**le for the remaining 2 1/2 weeks until he came
> here. I had planned to feed him raw, so that's all I have on hand.
> Tonight I offered him a chicken thigh without the skin, and I ribboned
> it a bit to make it easier for him to eat, even cut a little chunk off
> for him as well. He was very eager to eat it, dove right in and
> worked on it, but actually never ATE much, if any. He sure tried
> though! I offered it to him again later, and he tried again, but
> still didn't actually consume any, I don't think.
>
> Do I just keep trying until he gets it? He is pretty small, and he is
> interested and determined, but I'm not sure he's able to do it (yet.)
> I know it's okay to let older dogs go 5 days or more without food
> until they get it, but how about an 8 week old puppy? Should I offer
> it to him cut up at first, or should I keep doing what I'm doing until
> he figures it out?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Robyn & Ozzy (who loves his raw meat, if only he could figure out how
> to eat it.)

Robin,

NOt sure what breed he is or how much he weighs, but sounds to me he is too small to
actually rip off the meat in edible chunks.
When I've had a litter of pups that were having trouble getting enough food off the bone, I
either ground the meat/bone or offered cut up or scraped meat.
Scraped meat is meat that has been scraped off the bone with a knife.

Everyone has to feed young pups on whatever learning curve the pup is on. Some pups
are little monsters and will devour whatever you throw at them. Some are small with small
mouths that need a bit of help.

Your pup sounds like he's hungry and healthy so he might just need some extra help with
his food. Don't be afraid to cut or scrape his food for him. Some boneless meals are fine
while he is getting used to the raw. Depending on what breed his is, he might need help
for another couple of weeks. Maybe even longer if he's a toy dog.

Don't have this little guy go hungry because he can't get enough meat off the bone. You
might also try him on rib-in chicken breast meat. Ribs are very soft and pliable and easier
to eat than thighs plus they have lots of meat on them.

Let us know how it works out.

Merril

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:25 am ((PDT))

I'm in the same boat, so to speak. But when I woke up to what I was
supporting by purchasing dry food manufactured for my dog....everything got easier.
I just try as best I can to either purchase "humanely" raised meat (rarely
because I'm poor so I set $1.99/.lb as a general limit but I've gone higher
for a real deal)...or find ready to toss meat at a local Natural Foods Market
(the but meat is mostly conventional)...and sometimes I buy organ meat at the
local Spanish market (also conventional but no one else has organ meat around
here). It's been quite a practice to handle to meat and really think about
it's origins and to extend gratitude to the animal who possibly suffered and
certainly died to nourish another.

I've been mostly vegan (totally vegetarian) for over 17 years. I took this
on as a way to open my mind and heart and understanding and not be so
"precious" about my position. It's helping in all kinds of ways.

Meanwhile, one can work on behalf of the ethical treatment of farm animals
(PETA haters don't go bonkers here). Other countries have laws that support
animal husbandry in their farming industries. We can do better.

Meanwhile, my little guy gets raw meat and at least I have SOME knowledge of
it's quality/origins as opposed to what goes into the commercial dog food.

Nice to have someone else who struggles with this dilemma too.

Carol for spencer

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:52 am ((PDT))

> designlmc <designlmc@...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> My dilemma is this: I do not shop chain supermarkets as I do not want to
> support agribusiness and hormone, antibiotic-laden meats. Conversely, I
> cannot afford to buy extraordinarily priced free range meats at our
> health food market.
>
> Anyone else face this dilemma? I don't have problems handling meat (I
> was a meat eater for many years). How do you resolve this ethical
> situation?
>
> Many thanks,
> Laura

Hi Laura,

I just wanted to say that I'm in total solidarity with you! I see by now other people have
already pointed out some great affordable ways to get meat that doesn't support what
you don't want to support, all I have to add is that connecting with local small-scale
farmers and hunters is a great part of increasing sustainability and resisting agribusiness.
I have local farmers I've met at the farmers' market save the cheap bits they might
otherwise not do much with--they don't usually sell the ox hearts, but they save them for
me and my cats.

And like someone else said, even just disengaging from the pet food industry also is a
major ethical/political act/statement.

I don't know who you're feeding and how much meat you need, but I visited a wonderful
nonprofit Big Cat sanctuary in Indiana, EFRC, and affording meat was a huge issue for
them, with 180 large-scale carnivores to feed; they fed a combo of inexpensive or donated
animals from local farmers, like, dairy cows who weren't giving milk anymore, or cow, goat
and horse pets who died of old age; and road kill, which can be safe and appropriate. To
me, that's all also reducing consumption, and making the best use of available resources.
So if you have a big freezer, you might want to look into that route, too.

All the best,

Sarah
supervised by felidae Henry and Ivan, and mustelidae Quercus and Ilex

Messages in this topic (8)
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4c. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:11 am ((PDT))

I think many struggle with it. However, at the moment you (rhetorical you)
the Vegan, Vegetarian, whatever, decided to bring a carnivoire into your
home, you accepted responsibility for it's life and well being. That's the
choice YOU made. Marytr yourself for your beliefs but do not make your
carnivoire suffer a life of sickness and malnutrition because you want to
make a point. We are in the AF now, but in 7 yrs we will be out and we will
start a family farm. The animals will be raised naturally, in sunlight,
protected from the elements, have their every need seen to, and know
contentment until that moment when they are killed as humanely as possible.
Until that time I do what I can but I don't look into the eyes of my dogs
and say "too bad buddy...you have to sacrifice your body for my political
belief system." Do what you can when you can while doing the best you can
for your dog.

Karen

>
>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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5. Frustrated and cannot find any answers
Posted by: "Steffani Martino" yahoogroups800@earthlink.net floridasun5
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:10 am ((PDT))

Ok, so I know there have been several "I feel like giving up" threads
lately, but add me to the list. While I have been really trying to avoid
trying to go back to finding a really good, high quality pet food, it seems
as if feeding raw has become more and more of a hassle for my 2 dogs. I
have been feeding raw for almost a year.

Firstly, I am having a harder and harder time finding non-enhanced meat
because both of my dogs have been suffering allergies majorly and Ive pretty
much ruled out any environmental or household irritants, so I know it must
either be the type of meat, or the fact that it has been injected with
something. I get most of our meat from the supermarket and a local meat
market and it seems as if EVERYTHING now is enhanced! I cannot afford to
pay prices for organic meats, nor do I have the time to be going all over
town to hunt it out as I am recently married to my new business! I've even
tried the local co-op foods, but they have a very limited selection and one
of my dogs does not like the ground stuff, so its not worth the time or
price. So, one of my dogs seems to only have allergies to certain types of
meat and is very un-picky...she will eat anything, which is good. The other
dog seems to have allergies to everything and anything and IS picky. I know
that picky eaters are made, however its frustrating when your "child" does
not want to eat for days at a time, so I usually give in, in addition to not
having the time play games over food. My boy dog has just never gained the
interest in raw meat and enjoyment in eating that his sister has. Between
the constant itching all over and runny eyes, Im frustrated that my dogs are
not as "seemingly" healthy as they seemed before on pet food. I dont know
what is in the pet food that prevents or even hides these issues, but my
dogs didnt suffer on kibble. So, as of right now, the only advantage that
I am seeing to feeding raw is their clean teeth!

In addition, just to cover all bases, I have tried numerous homepathic
remedies. I have tried simple things such as oatmeal baths, lavender, itch
sprays, etc. My dogs have not been vaccinated in over a year, nor have they
been given any medications, etc. that are not natural products.

Does anyone have any further recommendations for me? I am really in need of
answers now. Thanks for any help.

Steff with Glory and Freedom

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Messages in this topic (1)
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6. coughing and bloody stool
Posted by: "Carol Garnaat" cgar88@ameritech.net sewnchine
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:37 am ((PDT))

Hello all,
I've just started my 12lb Daschund and 8.5lb Yorkie on raw feed about 2
weeks ago. They love it! I have been feeding chicken leg quarters, cut to
their 2% of ideal weight amounts. The daschund gets a couple small Wellness
brand biscuit treats in the morning. The Yorkie likes to beg for lunch meat
bits in the late evening, scratching at the refrig for me to get her some.
Neither is interested in dry kibble any longer.

I have several questions.

1) My daschund started hard coughing early evening last night. He coughed
through the night and is still coughing this morning. He does not cough
anything up. This morning, he refused his small biscuit that he begs for
every morning when I get on the computer. The coughing makes me think
perhaps this could be bone lodged somewhere. Any advice as what to do? He
seems fine other than the coughing (and refusing his morning biscuit).

2) My Yorkie passed stool with blood in it last night and this morning. The
stool has gelatinous looking parts, and was stringy. Advice on this would
be appreciated.

3) They seem to be hungry, wanting more. I am watching their weight and
have no weight loss, so I think I am feeding sufficiently. Do others
experience this "hungry" attitude?

Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated!
Carol in Mid-Mich

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:37 am ((PDT))

> A while ago I got a bucket of goat guts and while it may have been a
> small goat and the young sheep in question may have been a big young
> sheep, there wasn't that much stomach to deal with. It is not a cow
> production at all. I heaved the bucket contents over the fence and let
> my three retrievers eat of it and everything disappeared promptly
> except for the stomach contents, which was picked at but not devoured.
> The stomach tissue itself was nibbled away from the ddigesta.
>
> I suspect there will be little processing required with a young lamb's
> stomach.
> Chris O
>

Yes, goat and sheep guts are not that large and if you have a few hungry dogs, it's worth
your while to do just as Chris did.

We do the same thing and my pack will actually devour the entire thing -even the green
stuff. But then, group feeding will usually do that. On the other hand, when I feed a
whole cow stomach they will leave a big green pile of green stomach contents. I usually
spread it around on the grass or garden for fertilizer.

Merril

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