Feed Pets Raw Food: Jul 31, 2007

Tuesday, July 31, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11866

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: My grass.......
From: Nathalie Poulin

2a. Re: Freezer
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2b. Re: Freezer
From: Giselle
2c. Re: Freezer
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Re: Hare Today
From: jrtsnabc
3b. Re: Hare Today
From: Bordomom@verizon.net
3c. Re: Hare Today
From: Shannon Hully

4a. Re: new to this group
From: magolin0328
4b. Re: new to this group
From: jennifer mcfaden
4c. Re: new to this group
From: carnesbill
4d. Re: new to this group
From: costrowski75
4e. Re: new to this group
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: calcium/phosphorous ration
From: Shannon Hully
5b. Re: calcium/phosphorous ration
From: Jennifer
5c. Re: calcium/phosphorous ration
From: carnesbill

6a. Anal Blows
From: Amy
6b. Re: Anal Blows
From: Laurie Swanson
6c. Re: Anal Blows
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Tripe 1st time
From: Bordomom@verizon.net

8.1. Feeding Fish
From: vadaski16
8.2. Re: Feeding Fish
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: introducing organs
From: antarpremal

10a. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
From: zest_741

11a. not eating
From: Katie

12. ibs update
From: lhmcmaken

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: My grass.......
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:01 pm ((PDT))

My dog too, but I find that if I hose it down a little
after she goes, then it's not so bad.
It's a little inconvenient, but at least it works!

Nathalie

> My Raw feed dog is killing my grass. Every time he
> pees

Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Freezer
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:19 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/31/2007 12:40:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
megan.giselle@gmail.com writes:

I already have a large side by side and a good sized
upright. and only one dog right now, tho' admittedly, she's not a
light weight! ; )

LOL Giselle,

get the extra freezer then get another dog (always room for one more!!).. see
how easy it is.. lol.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Freezer
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:00 pm ((PDT))

I already have several breeds picked out, and I'm considering whether
to foster an assistance pup, instead! What to do.........?
lol
need a pup *first, then another freezer.
Giselle

> LOL Giselle,
>
> get the extra freezer then get another dog (always room for one
more!!).. see
> how easy it is.. lol.
>
> Catherine R.

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Freezer
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:05 pm ((PDT))

You got that backwards, Giselle...get the freezer first! :)) You might end
up with a couple of Great Danes or something!!!!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Giselle" <megan.giselle@gmail.com>

I already have several breeds picked out, and I'm considering whether
to foster an assistance pup, instead! What to do.........?
lol
need a pup *first, then another freezer.
Giselle

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Hare Today
Posted by: "jrtsnabc" jrtsnabc@yahoo.com jrtsnabc
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

From a Yahoo! search:

http://www.hare-today.com/

Cheers,

Katherine and the JRTs & BC
Windsor, CO

Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:50:05 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Hare Today

Is there a website for Hare Today?

____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Hare Today
Posted by: "Bordomom@verizon.net" Bordomom@verizon.net redmaskboy
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:48 pm ((PDT))

http://www.hare-today.com/

I was just out there this past weekend to pick up my order. She runs a very clean sanitary operation. Her dogs also look great.

Wendy

From: sgubernatis <sgubernatis@clearviewcatv.net>
Date: 2007/07/31 Tue PM 04:50:05 CDT
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Hare Today

Is there a website for Hare Today?

Sue Gubernatis
Forest Hill, MD

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Hare Today
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:49 pm ((PDT))

>
> Is there a website for Hare Today?
>
> Sue Gubernatis
> Forest Hill, MD
>

There are several places to get rabbit, all depends on where you are
located as far as how much shipping will run you.

Hare today:
http://www.hare-today.com/

Prey 4 Pets carries so much variety, both in meat and cuts:
http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/StoreFront

Taylor Pond Farms:
http://www.taylorpondfarms.com/

Rodent Pro often has sales that are just incredible:
www.rodentpro.com

Whole foods 4 Pets (if you click on the section for lizards you can
get whole rabbits):
http://www.wholefoods4pets.com/dogs-cats.htm

(can you tell I get a little obsessive with this sort of thing? hehe)
Shannon H.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "magolin0328" maggie.taylor@artlover.com magolin0328
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:59 pm ((PDT))

>diamond just lick at it could that been to large for her since she a
petti 46lb girl. she handles the necks and drum leg fine.
*********
Too big? Ha! Diesel, my 45lb Border collie mix, got an ENTIRE turkey
plunked in front of him after Thanksgiving last year when they were
all on sale. He doesn't often get handed anything that's smaller than
a 3-4lb chicken. Why? Largely due to the fact that I'm lazy and its
far easier to just pull something out of the packaging and hand it to
him whole rather than trying to mess with cutting it up or figuring
out meal sized portions.

Maggie
Diesel, SDIT

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "jennifer mcfaden" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:16 pm ((PDT))

maggie,

diamond is a girl who has to have her turkey, but today she just was not interested. she could have been hot this morring and did not want to eat. I think my husband had been feeding it like a turkey popcicle at lunch time. were I thawed them out for the pack. she loves my raw turkey meat balls I make for her. I take one egg, a 1/4 cup dry oats, and about 2 lbs of turkey. then roll into balls a serve it may not be the best raw diet, but she loves it. I going to try doing it with chicken next.

Jennifer
magolin0328 <maggie.taylor@artlover.com> wrote:
>diamond just lick at it could that been to large for her since she a
petti 46lb girl. she handles the necks and drum leg fine.
*********
Too big? Ha! Diesel, my 45lb Border collie mix, got an ENTIRE turkey
plunked in front of him after Thanksgiving last year when they were
all on sale. He doesn't often get handed anything that's smaller than
a 3-4lb chicken. Why? Largely due to the fact that I'm lazy and its
far easier to just pull something out of the packaging and hand it to
him whole rather than trying to mess with cutting it up or figuring
out meal sized portions.

Maggie
Diesel, SDIT

---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:06 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> Turkey wings do not have lots of meat on them. They are bony,
> regardless of how much they weigh.

Actually turkey wings have less bone than whole chicken. 30% for
turkey wings to 31% for whole chickens (broilers or friers).

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:09 pm ((PDT))

carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> Actually turkey wings have less bone than whole chicken. 30% for
> turkey wings to 31% for whole chickens (broilers or friers).
*****
Bill, for someone who sets no store in numbers, you sure to like to
throw them around.

Thanks. I'll stick with turkey wings being too bony.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

4e. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:10 pm ((PDT))

Actually according to the USDA site they don't! Turkey roaster wings
contain 37% bone...remove the skin and it's 56%.

Regardless, both are too high in bone content...of course that's assuming
one is concerned about natural prey!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "carnesbill" <carnesw@bellsouth.net>

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> Turkey wings do not have lots of meat on them. They are bony,
> regardless of how much they weigh.

Actually turkey wings have less bone than whole chicken. 30% for
turkey wings to 31% for whole chickens (broilers or friers).

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: calcium/phosphorous ration
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:19 pm ((PDT))

> The cat, she is a little more stubborn and we are still transitioning
> her. She took to lamb almost immediately, then threw it up, so we are
> sticking to chichen mixed with her favorite wet food.

*** Isn't switching cats fun? *tongue firmly in cheek* Our two
youngest took some convincing but from all the stories I'm hearing I
think we still got off very lightly with them. That said, the picky
one of the two seems to feel that turkey, pork, and venison are
nature's gift to cats. ;-) Dunno if they're smellier or stronger
tasting or what but they get very excited on the rare occasion I give
them some. Might be meats to try with the more stubborn kitties. One
loves beef and can stomach it (actually he can stomach anything) but
the other one took a long time to convince to eat it. ...and it wasn't
worth it because he vomits it all up every single time. Ah well, live
and learn.

Good luck with the cats, it really is worth it. It's incredibly
satisfying to listen to an animal that was tough to switch happily
crunching down on their meat and bones!

I must admit that my picky cat would refuse to eat the same meat two
meals in a row. Not really a problem but something to think about if
your cat is being picky. I switched them fully to whole prey because
my picky cat refused to eat *any* bones except one chicken neck a
month, if I was lucky. However, having found out the truth about what
I was feeding before (ki**le), I absolutely refuse to ever have another
animal in my care eating it. (I told my hubby if he ever decided he
couldn't stomach this way of feeding and said we had to switch back I'd
give the animals to someone else and never have another.) Oddly as
soon as I gave him a mouse (the cat, not the hubby!) he crunched right
down and hasn't looked back since! They now get guinea pigs (my hubby
can't watch that one, hehe), rats, chicks, and quail chicks.

Shannon H.

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: calcium/phosphorous ration
Posted by: "Jennifer" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:02 pm ((PDT))

sharron,

Oddly as
> soon as I gave him a mouse (the cat, not the hubby!) he crunched
right
> down and hasn't looked back since! They now get guinea pigs (my
hubby
> can't watch that one, hehe), rats, chicks, and quail chicks.

I will have to try this once I have the huskies on a full raw diet. I
have five pet cats they are on high grade kibble right now though my
oriantel mix and talkanise mix like to lick the dogs turkey bone when I
fix the huskies dinners and snowflake the talkaness has ate some of the
raw turkey a few times.

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: calcium/phosphorous ration
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:06 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "swilken61" <powrfemme@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> I'd like some advice on the calcium/phosphorous ratio. If I am
> feeding meat and bones do I need to worry.

There is no need to worry about any ratios as long as you are
feeding a vareity of animal parts from a variety of animsls. Do you
worry about the calcium/phosohorous ratio in your own diet? I doubt
it. If you don't, there is no need to worry about it in your dog's
diet.

> The more I read through this post,
> I'm thinking I need advice on fine tuning also.

Drop ALL the supplements and add more protein sources to the
variety. Along with the turkey and rabbit; pork, beef and fish would
be great additions. Feed the eggs raw. With all the supplements
are are taking a very simple task(feeding dogs) and turning it into
a very complex operation.

> I keep the chunks bigger than bite size so they
> will realy have to chew them,

Don't think of chewing in human terms. Humans chew their food into
a mush before they swallow. Dogs only pull meat off the carcass and
crush bones with their teeth and swallow. They can swallow some
comparatively large pieces without problems.

> If I feed a
> chicken leg or a breast, can I assume the
> calcium/phosphorus ration is okay?

The calcium/phosphorus ratio is an arbitrary number. Don't worry
about it.

> The cat, she is a little more stubborn and we are
> still transitioning
> her. She took to lamb almost immediately, then threw it up, so
> we are
> sticking to chichen mixed with her favorite wet food. She
> does still
> get some dry food, I have a sabatuer in the house who
> isn't totally
> convinced.

You are going to have to straighten out the sabateur and explain to
her that she is not doing the cat a favor.

> My concern is that since she doesn't eat much bone
> just yet, is she getting enough calcium and when should I really
> worry about that?

I'm sure there is calcium in the junk food she is getting so don't
worry about it. When the junk food is eliminated, I'm pretty sure
she will eat bone.

> If I eventually get her to eat chicken
> necks, how much will be the right amount for her calcium?

You are still much too concerned about correct amount of things.
There is no correct amount of calcium.

> I've read some posts saying that
> chicken necks alone are too bony.

If all she eats are chicken necks then MAYBE the calcium may be a
little high but I wouldn't stress over it. Feed a variety and
everything will take care of itself.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Anal Blows
Posted by: "Amy" ladybaker2005@yahoo.com ladybaker2005
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone! I am so glad to find this site! I have 3 Italian
Greyhounds who are under 20 pounds. I started the BARF diet a few
days ago with raw chicken wings and a few organs. My one LOVES this
diet-but she is a gulper. I have noticed today that her anal
blew...which I've had in the past with kibble (They've been eating
hard food for 5 years...shame on me..)Their anals have a tendancy to
blow.
I am wondering if its due to the kibble and BARF working its way out
(detox)? I know that a few days ago my dad took her for the day and
probably fed her 'crap'...so perhaps that's another reason.
***I am assuming there's less blows with the BARF diet?

I am in the middle of moving from LV to WIS...I am trying to keep
going with this diet. ***Of course I am nervous about portions and so
forth--but I am determined to keep going....against my family's
blessing of course! (LOL) My hubby is not aware of my intentions--but
I am in charge of the kids and 'fur babies'.
*** Anyone else have small dogs that they can give me ideals as to
menu portions?
***Am I to mix raw pulped veggies?

Thanks again for any advice or words of encouragment!
Amy
Mother to Molly,Ginger & Lily.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Anal Blows
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:43 pm ((PDT))

What does this mean, exactly, that her "anal blew?" Sorry if I'm
dense. Full anal glands/carpet scooting? Liquid, squirty poops?

Wings are probably too small for your dogs, especially if they tend
to gulp. If you feed bigger parts, they will have to work at them,
they'll have a better sense of what they're eating, and they'll break
them down into more natural bites.

Start w/2-3% of ideal weight for a feeding amount and adjust up or
down as needed, based on weight, activity level, etc. I have a 20
lb. Boston and he gets an average of about 1/2# to 3/4# per day.

You don't need veggies. Just a lot of meat, some bone, and a little
organs. Think whole prey animals.

Have you read any of the past messages on the list? There's an
amazing amount of info there.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy" <ladybaker2005@...> wrote:
I have noticed today that her anal
> blew...which I've had in the past with kibble (They've been eating
> hard food for 5 years...shame on me..)Their anals have a tendancy
to
> blow.

> *** Anyone else have small dogs that they can give me ideals as to
> menu portions?
> ***Am I to mix raw pulped veggies?

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: Anal Blows
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi Amy,

I don't know what you mean by anal blows, but if you are just beginning this
diet and have a gulper, you need to start out slowly with larger portions,
more meat and no organs unless they happen to be attached to a chicken part!
And no goodies from Dad!! Haha!!!!

So no veggies, more meat and no organs for now....maybe try a thigh or
chicken breast? You want to feed approximately 3% of ideal adult weight per
day.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Amy" <ladybaker2005@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Tripe 1st time
Posted by: "Bordomom@verizon.net" Bordomom@verizon.net redmaskboy
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:51 pm ((PDT))

Chris, how right you are!I just ordered another 30lbs.

Wendy

Five pounds of green tripe for a 120lb dog will not last very long!
If you need it to last longer, feed it as a side dish. If you can
readily get more, feed it more generously.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8.1. Feeding Fish
Posted by: "vadaski16" vadaski16@yahoo.com vadaski16
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES!***

do you guys feed fish whole? i tried giving my dog fish yesterday and
he sniffed it and licked it but he didn't know how to eat it. i tried
feeding it to him by hand but then he kinda choked on a bone so i
stopped.

i still want him to eat salmon though. any suggestions?

Messages in this topic (28)
________________________________________________________________________

8.2. Re: Feeding Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:25 pm ((PDT))

"vadaski16" <vadaski16@...> wrote:
>
> ***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES!***
>
>
>
> do you guys feed fish whole?
*****
Yes, whenever possible, but not exclusively.

i tried giving my dog fish yesterday and
> he sniffed it and licked it but he didn't know how to eat it.
*****
This is not an unusual response to new food, new textures, new
smells. He probably didn't know how to eat it, you're right.

i tried
> feeding it to him by hand but then he kinda choked on a bone so i
> stopped.
*****
Kinda choked on a bone how? That doesn't tell me much, alas.
Perhaps neither of you are quite ready for fish! What were you hand
feeding? Small cut up bits, or larger hunks?

> i still want him to eat salmon though. any suggestions?
*****
Patience, for one.
You might try a piece of filet for taste, smell and texture, then
gradually introduce skin and bone-in flesh. My retrievers ate salmon
heads right away, but whole fish--salmon or otherwise--continues to
be pretty close to the bottom of their "must have" list.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (28)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: introducing organs
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi Giselle.

Just wanted to thank you for the reply. I appreciate all of the info that I am able to gather
here. You all are great to give of your time and knowledge!

All the best,
Jennifer

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Jennifer!
> Sounds like you all are doing well!
> It doesn't hurt to thaw and refreeze meat for dogs. It changes the
> flavor for people, dogs don't care. And meat thats a 'little old'
> won't hurt your dog. Their digestion is different from ours.
>
> Once or twice a week for different kinds of organs sounds good to me.
> Thats what I do. A little more or less often isn't critical.
>
> Partially thaw the heart and cut into portion sized pieces. Slide into
> plastic freezer bags and refreeze everything but what you're going to
> feed in a couple days. You can feed as a boneless meal, or feed with a
> mostly bony bone - like whole pork neck bones.
>
> When I buy, I buy enough for a couple months. So, while I'm packaging
> everything for the freezer, I put meatymeat with bonierbones to make a
> meal in the same bag. Or, I just put enough of something for a meal in
> one bag, and mix/match later.
>
> My market will cut any meat to order - ask yours to cut the heart in
> meal sized pieces next time you buy it. Ask them not to trim off the
> cap fat and other stuff, its all good for the dog.
>
> You could try searing the liver or kidney in a very hot pan to entice
> Sasha to eat it.
>
> I still shop at that rural market I'd mentioned before - no co-ops
> near me that I could find, and online stuff is too spendy. I live in a
> county that is a tourist destination and is rapidly becoming a
> 'bedroom community' for Atlantic City casino workers. So, land is
> being bought up and built on for housing and businesses and small
> farmers are becoming a thing of the past. And prices are rising all
> the time.
>
> I don't feed much fish. Even tho' I'm close to the fishing
> communities, fish is expensive here. There are sites where you can go
> to check what fishes and seafood are good to eat/feed. This is one I
> can remember the url to;
> http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=bestandworst&link=hp
> Maybe someone else can post the links to others.
>
> TC, Jennifer, so glad to hear how you're doing!
> Giselle
> with Bea in Cape May County
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Everyone!
> > This is Jennifer (and Sasha). Who is now 5 months old (Golden
> mix) I started her on
> > raw with the help of this list a couple of months ago. So far she is
> doing very well. I have
> > been giving chicken and beef liver for a while but now started to
> introduce veal kidney
> > since I was able to find it. Also have some heart but haven't tried
> that yet.
> >
> > So far I fed a bit of kidney cut up and put into some ground
> buffalo. She would not
> > touch it on it's own. (I have to give her the liver frozen as treats
> as she also does not like
> > the texture.) She seemed fine with it.
> >
> > So now what? It was frozen and I defrosted it to cut it and
> refroze the rest. Is this a
> > bad idea for dogs as it is for people? How often should I give small
> amounts, and I have no
> > idea what to do with those two big frozen hearts in my freezer!
> >
> > A note to Giselle.
> >
> > I am also in New Jersey and looking for purveyors. Right now I
> am still shopping mostly
> > in the supermarkets. I'd love find someone that supplies more
> natural stuff.....cage free
> > etc, and wild game. I was able to find elk at the store but horribly
> expensive.
> >
> > And what about fish. These days I am very uncertain of the safety
> of eating fish myself
> > and feeding it to my son who is 2. I try to stick to whatever is
> small. Other than wild
> > salmon any recommendations out there? We mostly eat Tilapia these
> days but still it is farm
> > raised and I don't know if that is good or not.
> >
> > Thanks so much!
> > Jennifer
> >
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
Posted by: "zest_741" zest_741@yahoo.com.au zest_741
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:05 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lindsay Dorian"
<iamentropygirl@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Kerry,
>
> I am another OZ raw feeding and I also wish it was easier to find
variety (
> I am north of Cairns)
>
> Do you also have trouble finding meat at reasonable prices?> Lindsay
>
Hi!
So good to hear from other Australians on the list! I'm managing to
find good variety in RMB's and meat, but it has taken a few months to
find the sources and build the relationships. My local organic butcher
now saves me any trim he isn't turning into sausages, for free, and
then I buy meaty duck and chicken carcasses from him, not so cheap but
good quality and balanced out by the freebies.
I have set myself an average limit of Aust$3.50-$4.00 per kilo, mostly
because I don't have the freezer space yet to buy in bulk and save
that way.
I have found good deals at that price or lower on lamb necks and
sides, tongue, heart, kangaroo, veal, whole chickens and pork mostly
by shopping around. Many of the butchers and wholesalers do seem to
think I'm mad, but I'm starting to sort out the helpful from the rest.
I don't really mind paying more if it's worth it but I need some self-
imposed discipline or I'd spend a fortune on the dogs quite blindly.
Kerry
ps has anyone found a source of green tripe in Oz?

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. not eating
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:11 pm ((PDT))

How many days do you guys go with a dog not eating before you start to worry??

I switched my dgos to raw anout 5 weeks ago, and they have all been very enthusiastic
about it.

Sunday, Clancy (my golden) refused treats at work (I am a dog trainer and use him as my
demo dog) - he would take them from me, but just drop them on the ground. Then he
refused dinner that night. I didn't worry ,as he usually has a healthy appetite.
Last night he nibbled a piece of chicken, but didn't really consume more than several
bites. Tonight he licked his chicken a little, but didn't eat.

My 12 year old schipperke refused dinner alst night and again tonight.

Tonka, my other golden, ate his dinner AND clancy's last night . . . . he refused dinner
tonight, but I'm guessing it's becuase he ate twice his normal amount tonight!!

Murphy (border collie/aussie mix) has eaten his dinner every night, as has Mister, the
schip I am fostering. I dont' know if it's related, but Murphy and Mister eat in their crates,
whereas Tonka, Clancy, and Tara eat loose.

The only other change in my hosue is I have 3 foster goldens in HW treatment - 2 are
eating k*bble and one is eating canned food (I don't have a choice in what they eat at this
point) . . . I've had these guys since last Thursday . . . but none of my guys had any eating
issues until this week . . . and no one seems particularly interested in the food the foster
goldens get in their crates.

SHould I be worrying about Clancy at this point?

...katie

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. ibs update
Posted by: "lhmcmaken" lhmcmaken@yahoo.com lhmcmaken
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:55 pm ((PDT))

with the support of this group i went raw with my two old danes on
friday. today is tuesday and their poops are still hard/soft and
firm/small. but not going during the night and that is huge
improvement. I am feeding wal mart chicken breast and leg quarters
and wondered if the 10% bone was met best in some combination?? i got
a tub of chicken liver and tossed some into the bowl tonight. both
are eating well. i let them eat is separate areas so they do not
complete and eat too quick. that is working. am understanding that
one meat a week and then another for a week?? and figured to try pork
next. walmart has shoulder for 108 a pound and I wondered if that was
a richer meat? so thanks. this is a great group. I will keep you
updated on poops, general health and if it helps his nerves. he also
has a wobbly rear end and is there any chance this raw food will help?
thanks for taking time to help me.
take care,
lynda

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11865

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: next best thing
From: brutus_buckley

2a. Re: Not eating raw...
From: Jamie Dolan
2b. Re: Not eating raw...
From: Jamie Dolan

3a. Re: calcium/phosphorous ration
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
From: Sandee Lee
4b. Re: New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
From: jennifer mcfaden

5a. Re: Gauge
From: pigasus718

6a. Re: new to this group
From: Sandee Lee
6b. Re: new to this group
From: jennifer mcfaden
6c. Re: new to this group
From: Sandee Lee
6d. Re: new to this group
From: Morledzep@aol.com
6e. Re: new to this group
From: costrowski75
6f. Re: new to this group
From: jennifer mcfaden

7a. Re: Feeding and spices
From: Morledzep@aol.com

8a. Freezer
From: Giselle
8b. Re: Freezer
From: Morledzep@aol.com
8c. Re: Freezer
From: Giselle

9a. Re: Newbie - just took the plunge
From: Giselle

10a. Re: I love my vet!
From: pet.wellness

11a. Re: Sources Found-DFW, Texas Area - South
From: pet.wellness

12a. My grass.......
From: Val Kilmer
12b. Re: My grass.......
From: Sonja

13a. Re: what to do while we're on holiday
From: Nathalie Poulin

14a. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
From: Belinda Mitchell

15. Hare Today
From: sgubernatis

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: next best thing
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:06 pm ((PDT))

I traveled with my 2 dogs for a week recently. I prepared all their
meals for the week and stuck them in Ziplocs. Then I stored them in a
cooler. Only had to add more ice one time. It was no hassle at all; the
dogs ate in their crates.

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Not eating raw...
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:15 pm ((PDT))

> I would bet the problem is that when they don't eat the food you have made
> up for them, they are offered kibble and canned, both of which are probably
> far more flavorful with all the enhancers, etc., and those carbs are
> addictive. I doubt it's the vegetables they like...most likely it was
> cooked chicken, which again is more flavorful than raw.

I wonder if lightly searing some of there food would be helpful. The
BARF mix does have some decent size chunks of bone in it, maybe up to
the size of a very small thimble. With the bones in it, I really
worry that it is not safe to cook it at all.

Jamie

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Not eating raw...
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:43 pm ((PDT))

> Do your parents believe raw food is better? Or are they just humoring
> you? They have set things up such that it is very hard to succeed,
> unless the dogs actually prefer raw. If they believe in what you are
> doing, perhaps education will help. If not...that's a tough one.

I think it is some of both. I think I have shown them enough
information for them to believe that raw is better than cheap kibble /
canned food. My dogs defiantly prefer raw, especially akiva (akiva
would kill his dog friends for there raw food if I allowed him to).
It is so interesting that all dogs are not like this.

I think that my mom especially is still concerned about the safety of
bones in there food, even the ground ones a little bit. Her vet even
said raw food is fine!!! But she is still concerned. She kind of
freaks out when I give them whole bone in pieces of chicken. She
thinks it will cause them to perforate or cause a blockage. Which I
guess may be more likely with her dogs that mine, because they are not
eating raw all the time, so I don't think they have as strong of
digestive systems. But I don't think it is something she should
really be concerned about.

I think that she still views some of what I (we) believe is a bit
fanatical / extreme. (raw feeding, limited vax, natural flea & tick,
etc.) So I don't think she totally believes in all of it, although
they go along with most of it. They did use flea and tick - front
line once this year (I bathed there dogs and used a detergent to was
off as much of the frontline as possible).

I think another part of the problem may be that my mom seems to be
leaning towards eating less meat and more vegetarian. She has been
reading the omnivores dilemma. So I think she is starting to feel
more uneasy about meat, especially RMB. However something interesting
happened the other night, my aunt was visiting from out of town, she
has been a strict vegetarian for more than 20 years (no meat, no fish,
very limited dairy). My mom was talking about how she cooked some
rice, carrots, and a little bit of chicken for the dogs. I said
something to the effect that my dogs like raw meats far better than
any of the cooked junk. My aunt the vegetarian said "Of course that
is what they like raw meat best thats what they all eat in the wild".
I think my mom was a little surprised that my aunt the vegetarian was
so straight forward about stating raw meat is what dogs naturally eat.

So I think it is a combination of factors that make this situation difficult.

>Have you tried changing the formula? Perhaps they really prefer one
> kind of meat (duck, salmon, chicke...whatever!) By trying single
> foods, you may find some they really like.

I have tried changing the formula a little bit, but I have not tried a
lot of meats by themselves. That is a good idea, I think that is what
I need to do, and try some individual meats with them and try and
judge what they like best, then make there barf mix based on that
meat.

> Lightly searing the food might help, since they are more accustomed to
> cooked or commercial.

Do you think it is safe to lightly cook the meat, even if it has some
ground bone in it? Some of the ground bones pices are a bit on the
larger side.

> This must be pretty frustrating. Is it possible the dogs are picking
> that up, and reacting to it? Are your parents communicating to the
> dogs that the barf mix is bad?

It is possiable that the dogs are getting a bit stressed and confused.
They don't seem to have much trouble eating whatever I put in front
of them, only rarely do they refuse food from me that I give them.

> My dog prefers raw. The only food he is skeptical about is fish. Not
> only do I need to cut it into peices, but to get him to try it the
> first couple of times, I seared it, then got really excited and told
> him how GREAT it was. He looked at me like I must be outta my mind,
> but reluctantly ate it. I still need to cut it into chunks, but don't
> need to sear it.

Thats funny. I can give my little shih tzu's a whole frozen cat fish
and they will eat the entire thing in 45 minutes.

> If your dogs get the message that raw is GOOD...their taste buds will
> probably agree, sooner or later. If they pick up that it is BAD, or
> OPTIONAL...they may continue to refuse.

I wish they would just give them raw, and they either eat raw or they
don't eat. I also wish they would ditch all the "treats" Althouh I
have got them to switch to more meaty treats, I don't think most of
those commercial jerky treats and such are very good for them. I use
freeze dried for treats for my boys. (freeze dried meat). I feel it
is good for them and they love it!

I agree they need to project a more positive attitude about raw to the
dogs, I think they do get the idea that raw is somewhat optional
because of they don't eat it, they get something else.

> was NOT BEING PUNISHED, that hiking is FUN, that he WOULD NOT PERISH
> if he walked through a trickling stream, spent the night in the

Thats intresting, How did you end up getting him to like the water?
Akiva kind of hates water for some reason. He used to refuse to walk
outside if the ground (grass, driveway, dirt, anything) was wet at
all. He seems better about that now, but if I want him to swim, I
have to pick him up and put him in the water.

> forest, etc. (Now that I think about it...the poor guy was probably in
> so much culture shock...he probably would have eaten ANYTHING! Raw-
> scmaw...just protect him from things that make the leaves rustle along
> the trail...)

LOL.

Thanks for your help and suggestions

Jamie

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: calcium/phosphorous ration
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:26 pm ((PDT))

All the ratios are perfect when feeding according to the prey model which
means approximately 80% meat, 10% edible bone and 10% organs. It looks like
you are feeding quite high bone and you definitely do not want to supplement
with calcium. Start feeding some nice meaty meals to bring the bone content
down, dump the calcium supplement, yeast and kelp. They are not necessary
and can be harmful.

No need to chop their food...just feed it whole. And feed the egg raw! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "swilken61" <powrfemme@aol.com>

For the dogs: I chop up chicken breast and legs into chunks, leaving
the bone of course. If their stool get to hard, I cut back on the
bone a bit. I am also giving them liver, gizzards, and hearts (I just
found turkey hearts). I keep the chunks bigger than bite size so they
will realy have to chew them, on Sundays they get an egg meal
(softboiled so that the whites are cooked but the yolks are soft, and
then they fast until Monday. I do the same with the lamb. If I feed a
chicken leg or a breast, can I assume the calcium/phosphorus ration
is okay?

One of my dogs is prone to UTIs and the other has pancreatitis, so I
remove some of the fat from her meals. I give berry balance three
times a week fot the UTI girl and digestive enzymes for the
pancreatitis girl. I also give them a multivitamin supplement and a
calcium supplement if it seems like they haven't had enough bone,
nutitional yeast on occaision, and some kelp.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:31 pm ((PDT))

Oh gosh, feeding raw is so simple, even a child could do it!! :))

Seriously, as carnivores the only requirement for your dogs is lots of meat,
a little bone and some organs. No need for recipes, grinding, mixing,
mashing, measuring! :) No veggies, fruit, NO flax or yogurt. Just buy a
chicken, hand to dogs. Add in new protein sources gradually. That's it!!!
Easy, huh????

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "cadence_nakashima" <cadence_nakashima@yahoo.ca>

I tried a diet I got from another raw feeding friend for one batch,
but before I went through the trouble of making it up again, (it
took over an hour for not even three days worth of food), I wanted
to make sure it was a complete diet.

8lbs of the dog meat mixture
1lb of carrot, spinach and alfafa grass
1lb of blueberries and apples
5oz of crushed flax seed
50z of yogurt
1 can of sardines

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
Posted by: "jennifer mcfaden" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:10 pm ((PDT))

Sorry to jump in, I am new my self to raw feeding. I have play around with it for several months just not found the right amount for my pack or siberains. if hand the chicken to dog is easy why does one of my girl not like turkey wings when she like the necks, drum legs, and breast?? I have not try the chicken yet my husband scard they will choke on the bones. I have one who love rabbit if any knows some were in richmond va.

Jennifer

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
Oh gosh, feeding raw is so simple, even a child could do it!! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "cadence_nakashima" <cadence_nakashima@yahoo.ca>

8lbs of the dog meat mixture
1lb of carrot, spinach and alfafa grass
1lb of blueberries and apples
5oz of crushed flax seed
50z of yogurt
1 can of sardines

---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Gauge
Posted by: "pigasus718" pigasus718@yahoo.com pigasus718
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:40 pm ((PDT))

Hello Tracey,
My heart goes out to you for the loss of your little guy.
It doesn't take very long for them to become such an
important part of our life, does it?
I lost my rottie, Raquel, 1 1/2 yrs ago, two days after
Christmas. I thought I was going to die too. I still
mourn her to this day.
I pray your other babies come through this ok
also.
Take care of yourself and your "pack" and
know that my thoughts are with you.

Robyn

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jennifer,

You want to feed lots of meat, a little edible bone and some organs, various
body parts and protein sources. That's it! Start out with feeding
approximately 2-3% of ideal adult weight per day.

I would feed through that prepared raw and not replenish your stock...just
go get a few whole chickens or turkey, divide into meal sized portions and
hand to dogs. Turkey necks are ok if you are feeding a lot of meat with
them...and if you know your dogs aren't gulpers! Prepared raw generally has
quite a high bone content so necks may not be the best to feed along with
it.

Venison and fish are great additional sources, as are pork, beef,
lamb...whatever you have available in your area. You might want to look at
Kevin's recipe page to get other ideas for appropriate foods....
http://www.RawFedDogs.net/

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Jennifer" <cadet972@yahoo.com>

I will be breeding siberians here soon. I have several adults that I am
trying to get on the raw diet. Here my question what a good base diet
for the pack. the weight run 62 lbs(sabastian, male); 50 lbs(bear,
male); 50 lbs(ice, female); 46 lbs(diamond, female); 45 lbs(arctic,
male); 43 lbs(lighting, female); 5 lbs(aurora, female pup 7 weeks).
Aurora and bear never had raw they are the new additions. I am feeding
turkey necks and preparied raw diet. I trying to find other appropiate
foods for them, they like deer & fish.

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "jennifer mcfaden" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:11 pm ((PDT))

thanks sandee,

one question I try the turkey wings for our large girl and her kennel mate diamond (my two brood bitches) ice ate in about hour and half. diamond just lick at it could that been to large for her since she a petti 46lb girl. she handles the necks and drum leg fine. The only gulper I have is my alpha male arctic and that only after everyone done and starying at him and his food. almost like they are saying if you done want I take it,lol.

The wings were almost a pound each, lots of meat and skin on them.

Jennifer

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
Hi Jennifer,

You want to feed lots of meat, a little edible bone and some organs, various
body parts and protein sources. That's it! Start out with feeding
approximately 2-3% of ideal adult weight per day.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Jennifer" <cadet972@yahoo.com>

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:19 pm ((PDT))

Jennifer,

I don't know why she won't eat wings...could be the size or shape. I don't
really like feeding wings alone..they aren't meaty enough and have all those
weird bone angles! :) I do feed them when attached to a larger part of the
turkey tho. If you have a gulper, feed BIG!

BTW, if they haven't choked on turkey bones, they certainly shouldn't have
problems with chicken. Just feed large pieces so they aren't tempted to
swallow whole!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "jennifer mcfaden" <cadet972@yahoo.com>
> one question I try the turkey wings for our large girl and her kennel
mate diamond (my two brood bitches) ice ate in about hour and half. diamond
just lick at it could that been to large for her since she a petti 46lb
girl. she handles the necks and drum leg fine. The only gulper I have is my
alpha male arctic and that only after everyone done and starying at him and
his food. almost like they are saying if you done want I take it,lol.

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6d. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/31/2007 12:15:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cadet972@yahoo.com writes:

The wings were almost a pound each, lots of meat and skin on them.

Jennifer,

i hate to burst your bubble, but turkey wings are not nearly meaty enough..
you seriously want LOTS of meat, and just a tiny bit of bone, and some organs..

think turkey breasts and thighs, not wings and legs.. Pork picnic roasts,
shoulder butt roasts.. things that you have trouble finding the bones in..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6e. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:47 pm ((PDT))

jennifer mcfaden <cadet972@...> wrote:
>> The wings were almost a pound each, lots of meat and skin on them.
*****
Turkey wings do not have lots of meat on them. They are bony,
regardless of how much they weigh. Wings (turkey, chicken, doesn't
matter) are best fed when added to a pile of meat, or when fed attached
to a bigger helping of the bird.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6f. Re: new to this group
Posted by: "jennifer mcfaden" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:00 pm ((PDT))

catherine,

I new and geting started, I feed more true meat once out of my mother home. she makes it hard when we get roast and simmilar meat for the pack she use them on us, for her dinner then we out of food for the pack. they get ground turkey and chicken. and fish when possible. I working with some hunt clubs to get fresh deer and other wild game.

Jennifer

Morledzep@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 7/31/2007 12:15:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cadet972@yahoo.com writes:

The wings were almost a pound each, lots of meat and skin on them.

Jennifer,

i hate to burst your bubble, but turkey wings are not nearly meaty enough..
you seriously want LOTS of meat, and just a tiny bit of bone, and some organs..

think turkey breasts and thighs, not wings and legs.. Pork picnic roasts,
shoulder butt roasts.. things that you have trouble finding the bones in..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Feeding and spices
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:54 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/31/2007 3:04:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
alliecaracleo@yahoo.com writes:

so cooked ok once in awhile?

Denise,

As a treat.. no big deal.. treats are treats.. treats should NOT be so much
as to fill the dog up or interfere with the dog eating a species appropriate
diet.

And freeze dried liver training treats are NOT a substitute for eating organs.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Freezer
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:01 pm ((PDT))

Anyone near Ocean City, NJ? Just got a posting on the local Freecycle.
There's an upright freezer on offer, in use, so it works. They want a
response today.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Freezer
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:26 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/31/2007 12:02:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
megan.giselle@gmail.com writes:

Anyone near Ocean City, NJ? Just got a posting on the local Freecycle.
There's an upright freezer on offer, in use, so it works. They want a
response today.

Giselle,

go get it.. you can never have too many freezers..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Freezer
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:37 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Catherine!
I already have a large side by side and a good sized
upright. and only one dog right now, tho' admittedly, she's not a
light weight! ; )
Two months or more of food including *treaty* stuff like chicken feets
doesn't even fill up the space!
TC
Giselle

> In a message dated 7/31/2007 12:02:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> megan.giselle@... writes:
>
> Anyone near Ocean City, NJ? Just got a posting on the local Freecycle.
> There's an upright freezer on offer, in use, so it works. They want a
> response today.
>
>
>
> Giselle,
>
> go get it.. you can never have too many freezers..
>
> Catherine R.

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Newbie - just took the plunge
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Sue!
Welcome to the raw side!
*Stupid* Qs are the specialty du monde. ; )
But, there really are no stupid Qs, just scintillating answers!!!
Ask away!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Good morning, all. I've been lurking for a week or two, reading
> messages from July and June. I think I understand. What's to
> understand? It's all so very simple.
<snip>
> Thanks so much for being there. Can't guarantee that I won't ask
> some stupid question in the future so be patient with me.
>
> I don't expect to wipe out cancer in my house but at least I know my
> dogs are not getting a bunch of additives.
>
> Sue Gubernatis
> Forest Hill Maryland
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: I love my vet!
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:25 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES. ***

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
>
> into thinking that I'm not a crazy hippie extremist.
> If anyone in the Portland Oregon area is looking for a vet that puts a
> lot of thought into the medicine he practices and is responsible with
> his client's money, I'd be happy to pass along his name and number.
>
> Erica, Oliver, Pedro, and Ronin.
>
***
Actually, I'm perfectly okay with people thinking I'm a hippie
extremist. It's in vogue again. :-))

There's a raw vets list. Feel free to add your vets information there
for other people in the Portland area.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVets/?yguid=315449790

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Sources Found-DFW, Texas Area - South
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:47 pm ((PDT))

That's a really good price. Ask her if she knows a rabbit meat grower
near Austin. It costs a fortune to have it shipped from Hare Today.
Pamela

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "CarrolOliphint" <carrolo@...> wrote:
>
> I found a lady who delivers fresh killed rabbit to Lancaster, TX
> twice a month...any way you want it. Fur, or not, gutted or not. I'm
> using what I've learned here to "educate" her about prey model and
> she's quite willing to work with it any way she can. She's offered
> me skinned (no head or fur--because *I* can't quite handle that yet)
> at $2.25 lb. Rascal only eats a little over half a lb. a day, so
> that's doable for me. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll
> get the two of you in contact.
> Carrol & Rascal
>

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. My grass.......
Posted by: "Val Kilmer" DPM333@aol.com dferris23
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

My Raw feed dog is killing my grass. Every time he pees the next day
the grass is dead where he went. What am I doing wrong? My lawn looks
like my grandmas old pockodot dress. Not that I dont like my grannys
old dress, I just dont like my lawn to look like it. Any tips/info
would help.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: My grass.......
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:00 pm ((PDT))

Our dogs burned the grass whether or not they were fed raw. We solved the problem about 5 years ago by building a wood frame (nothing fancy, just four 2x6 pieces of wood nailed together) and filling it with pea gravel in a convenient and inconspicuous part of the yard. We trained the dogs to use it, and it's nice not having landmines or burns on the lawn. Pickup is easy on the peagravel. On the days where you realize you fed too much liver, you hose off the pea gravel or remove that small section of gravel. As for training, we've trained older rescue dogs and puppies to use the area without difficulty. It just takes persistence.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: what to do while we're on holiday
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

If you are PAYING to have your pets stay there, I
think it's completely irresponsible that she would
forget to de-thaw and THEN use the microwave.
Maybe you should tell her that you'll be reducing her
fee if she can't manage to feed your pets properly.
Is there any way that you can find somewhere else to
house them for a week? Do you have any friends that
could stop in to feed your dogs? I would be so upset
if I found out that someone was microwaving food for
my dogs... mind you I won't eat microwaved food
myself, so I might be over-reacting just a little..
Tell her just to give them the food frozen, if she
forgets again.

Nathalie

Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14a. Re: Raw Feeding in OZ (was: offal variety - how necessary?)
Posted by: "Belinda Mitchell" dubhruah@velocitynet.com.au dubhruadh
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi Lindsay,

I live outside Toowoomba at the moment and used to be down Canberra
way for a long time, but many of the not well known pet shops may or
may not stock frozen pet mince. If you explain to your local butcher
what you want they can generally be accommodating. For instance I
have a deal with a butcher to get the chicken carcases when he bones.
As long as I give him two days notice it isn't an issue. I worked
out a price with him $1/kg 18months ago and he hasn't considered
changing it, of course he would only get 5-10cents per kilo on the
obne truck. I also used to have an arrangement that the butcher
would get in offal for me straight from the supplier (usuallly their
abbatoir) and because they didn't have to do anything with (I would
do my own packing) they just had to have the boxes in the cool room
for the day, I generally got it at fairly close to wholesale price.
I also laid down the law so to speak on how much I would pay for
anything, and I think I have said not over $2/kg on anything. The
guy that takes my order at the butcher often has bargains for me when
I order the chisken.

I also have another supplier - a greyhound guy who runs a pet food
business that specialises in meat. I get fresh roo tails from him as
well as offal, and roo meat. I am off on a two week showing circuit
next week so am stocking up and he gets in what I want and although a
little more expensive than the butcher it works well for me. In fact
so we don't have to take as much food, a friend of mine has rung the
butcher in the location where we will be based out of for the two
weeks and lined up supplies. They may be a little more expensive,
but it saves on esky space!

A wee bit of judicious asking around will often get you the bargains!

Cheers

Belinda

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15. Hare Today
Posted by: "sgubernatis" sgubernatis@clearviewcatv.net sgubernatis
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:00 pm ((PDT))

Is there a website for Hare Today?

Sue Gubernatis
Forest Hill, MD

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11864

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. I'm new :)
From: Joanne Cragen
1b. Re: I'm new :)
From: Giselle
1c. Re: I'm new :)
From: carnesbill
1d. Re: I'm new :)
From: Joanne Cragen
1e. Re: I'm new :)
From: Joanne Cragen

2a. Re: New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
From: Giselle
2b. Re: New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: HOW LONG CAN I HOLD OUT NOT FEEDING STUBBORN CAT :(
From: Casey Post

4a. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
From: pet.wellness
4b. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
From: Giselle
4c. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
From: Suzie G

5a. what to do while we're on holiday
From: Verity-Anne Dokter
5b. Re: what to do while we're on holiday
From: carnesbill
5c. Re: what to do while we're on holiday
From: cypressbunny

6a. Re: next best thing
From: saphiradane
6b. Re: next best thing
From: cypressbunny
6c. Re: next best thing
From: Ross Senger

7a. Newbie - just took the plunge
From: sgubernatis
7b. Re: Newbie - just took the plunge
From: cresco299
7c. Re: Newbie - just took the plunge
From: Sue Gubernatis

8. new to this group
From: Jennifer

9. I love my vet!
From: millser25

10a. Re: Orange Roughly from NZ
From: Yasuko herron

11. calcium/phosphorous ration
From: swilken61

12a. Re: Gauge
From: lizwehrli

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. I'm new :)
Posted by: "Joanne Cragen" joannkey@ptd.net joannecragen
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:28 am ((PDT))

Hello:
I have a 1 yr old silky terrier and 9 month siberian husky. This
morning i started the raw feeding. My silky terrier(Zeus) ate alittle,
and my sibe just nibbled and walked away. Both meats were frozen when
I first gave it to them. The second time I just fryed the outside
alittle.( to get the juices flowing)Nothing
My sibe has a sensitive stomach and he does better on beef(I gave him
cooked beef before so his runs would clear up and they did in 24 hrs)
I gave my Zeus the chicken.(he does better on chicken) Any
suggestions? He doesn't want to eat it outside and he wants to bring
it on the carpet, which I'm not allowing. He has a crate and he won't
eat it in there also, so should I wait it out till tonight and see
what happens or should I cook the meat more till they get useto it?
Thanks in advance
Joanne
ps I have a toddler which is wondering what the heck I'm doing, so
maybe tonight would be better when I get home from work:)

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: I'm new :)
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:19 am ((PDT))

Hi, Joanne!
Welcome to the raw side! ; )
Its very helpful to feed your dogs where you can keep an eye on them.
That way, you know how much they're eating, you know they're not
burying it in the back yard for later, you know if there is a
choking/stuck bone right away, and you know they aren't getting into
each others business. You also know your toddler isn't 'helping' them
eat.

I'd designate regular eating places for them, maybe in the kitchen?
I'd put an old rug or towel down in each place. These can be taken up
after the meal, they protect the area you're feeding in, and only need
to be washed once a week or so. You can also put a barrier around each
dog at first to teach them that 'this is THE place', and the only
place, to eat. A wire ex-pen would work for the Sibe. You can put the
Silky in a cardboard box with high sides to keep him contained. Your
toddler's 'special' chair and a finger painting or modeling clay
project or feeding him his dinner too, can keep them all out of your
hair, and in their own meals. ; )

I'd start them both on chicken at first, for simplicity's sake. Feed
them according to their size; give your Silky a 1/3 of a breast, with
or without bone. You could ribbon the meat a little with a knife or
kitchen shears to give him something to grab onto. I'd give the Sibe
(you didn't say his age, so I'm assuming full grown)a 1/4 chicken.

If they don't eat, wait 10-15 minutes, then take it up, and put in the
fridge for the next meal. If you want to try to make the meal more
interesting at first, to give them the idea that its real food, you can;
1) put it under warm water for a few minutes.
2) sear it in a very hot pan for a few seconds.
3) cut slits or ribbon the meat off the bone to give them something to
grab onto.
4) Rub something smelly, like canned tuna oil/water, or Parmesan
cheese or canned dog food onto it.

Only do *one* thing to the meat before serving it, and don't take it
up during a meal to do anything else to it.

I would be sure that the meat is thawed out, especially for the Silky.
Tiny dogs core body temperatures can be lowered dangerously by eating
frozen or very cold meats. And, raw food isn't flavorized with
additives, like commercial dog foods, so thawing your dog's meals
first will help entice them to eat it.

If your dogs don't eat at a meal, take it up after 10-15 minutes. No
fussing, no coaxing, no snacks or bribes or sharing! Just wait until
the next meal, do whatever you're going to do to it to get them
intrigued into eating it, then put it down and let them be. Sometimes,
we confuse or intimidate the dog we are trying to entice into eating
by fussing or interfering, and he thinks he's not *supposed* to eat it!

TC and let us know how things progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello:
> I have a 1 yr old silky terrier and 9 month Siberian husky. This
> morning I started the raw feeding. My silky terrier (Zeus) ate a little,
> and my Sibe just nibbled and walked away. Both meats were frozen when
> I first gave it to them. The second time I just fried the outside
> a little.( to get the juices flowing) Nothing
> My Sibe has a sensitive stomach and he does better on beef(I gave him
> cooked beef before so his runs would clear up and they did in 24 hrs)
> I gave my Zeus the chicken.(he does better on chicken) Any
> suggestions? He doesn't want to eat it outside and he wants to bring
> it on the carpet, which I'm not allowing. He has a crate and he won't
> eat it in there also, so should I wait it out till tonight and see
> what happens or should I cook the meat more till they get used to it?
> Thanks in advance
> Joanne
> ps I have a toddler which is wondering what the heck I'm doing, so
> maybe tonight would be better when I get home from work:)
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: I'm new :)
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:30 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Cragen" <joannkey@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello:
> I have a 1 yr old silky terrier and 9 month siberian husky. This
> morning i started the raw feeding. My silky terrier(Zeus)
> ate alittle,
> and my sibe just nibbled and walked away.

I wouldn't feed frozen and I would feed chicken to both dogs. Beef
can be a little rich and you need to wait until they have been
eating raw for a few weeks before you feed it. Raw beef and cooked
beef are two different things.

Put their food down and if they are not eating on it in 15 minutes,
take it up and feed it again next meal. No between meal snacks and
no treats. Do the the same each meal until they eat. Don't make a
big fuss over it. Just do it without comment.

Sometimes it takes them a few times to figure out its really food
and then a little while longer to learn how to eat it.

I would also keep toddler away from them while they are learning to
eat. It is just an unneeded distraction.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: I'm new :)
Posted by: "Joanne Cragen" joannkey@ptd.net joannecragen
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

Thank you, I would have to get a barrier for the sibe, they are always
interested in each others food. I gave the silky a chicken thigh and
the sibe a 1.5 pound beef shank. I did boil it in water for a minute
and that seemed to help. I also cut a few big chunks, then I gave a
whole big piece. I think that kind of inticed them to eat it. I also
put them both on the back porch and watched them, but I will do what
ya said and get some kind of pen for the sibe for the inside.(it's
only convient for now since i don't have a pen)and i like them both to
get useto this new feeding. They both get feed twice a day with snacks
, so I will try ribboning it tonight when I get home from work.
Thanks again
Joanne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Joanne!
> Welcome to the raw side! ; )
> Its very helpful to feed your dogs where you can keep an eye on them.
> That way, you know how much they're eating, you know they're not
> burying it in the back yard for later, you know if there is a
> choking/stuck bone right away, and you know they aren't getting into
> each others business. You also know your toddler isn't 'helping' them
> eat.
>
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: I'm new :)
Posted by: "Joanne Cragen" joannkey@ptd.net joannecragen
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:07 am ((PDT))

Unfortunately, I gave the sibe chicken and rice before when he had the
runs. Didn't help and then I just gave him chicken and it still didn't
help. The only thing he ate was venison then, and the runs cleared up
in 24 hrs.( this happened when he was just a couple of months old) I
think he might be senitive to poultry, which i think is really rare,
so thats why I gave him beef instead.He is still to this day sensitive
to chicken, because i tried again( he was on beef protein evo and did
well on that, but after finding the article on the evo, which had big
chucks of black stuff in it and his teeth are not real white, I
decided to go rawfeeding totally) I did boil both meats for a minute(
maybe I can work up to complete raw) and gave a little chunk at first,
(because they did get meat portions before, but not full big chunk)
then I gave them a big chunk afterwards and they both ate it. I guess
they both need a little therapy because they are not useto it. I'm
gonna try again, instead i will cut into the meat a little :)
Thanks
Joanne
>
> I wouldn't feed frozen and I would feed chicken to both dogs. Beef
> can be a little rich and you need to wait until they have been
> eating raw for a few weeks before you feed it. Raw beef and cooked
> beef are two different things.
>

>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:32 am ((PDT))

Hi, uh, cadence_nakashima!
Good for you for wanting to feed your dogs a
species appropriate diet!

You can save yourself a lot of money, and work, by eliminating the
premade stuff, and also all the unnecessary veggies, fruits, et al.
And, ground meat isn't the best form of meat for your dogs.

Dogs are carnivores, just like wolves, and can get everything thing
they need nutritionally from prey animals like cows, deer, pigs,
chickens, etc. The way it works is; the herbivore eats the vegetation
and the carnivore eats the herbivore, and gets the benefit of both the
herbivore and what it ate, right?

Dogs need whole chunks of meat and edible bone for physical and dental
activity. They don't need the hard, dense bones of cows - these are
(w)rec(k) bones and can break teeth and cause unnatural wear. They
don't need bone in every meal.

Dogs don't need a lot of edible bone, just about 10% of the diet, 80%
of it should be meat; muscle, skin, fat, connective tissue, anything
that isn't bone or organs. Organs are important to feed, too; about
10% of the diet. Liver should be half of that, with kidney, spleen,
sweet breads and other organs making up the other 5%.

All you really need to do is go to the supermarket and buy meat with
bones in, like whole chickens, pork shoulders, fresh hams, beef
roasts, beef/veal heart, beef ribs, whole turkeys, lamb, etc. Whole
animals are better, but supermarket meats are easily obtainable,
mostly affordable and ain't too shabby, either. : ) There is a list of
creative ways to find more exotic meats and ways to source meats more
affordably, let me know if you are interested and I will post it.

You are likely to see a further reduction in the size and frequency of
poops when you switch over to prey model raw, and ditch all the
unnecessary veggies, etc. Vegetable matter is not digested or utilized
well by dogs, and mostly just comes out the other end, causing larger
and frequent stools.

Its better for the dog, especially larger dogs like yours, to feed BIG
chunks of meaty bones, like 1/2 or whole chickens or 1/4 turkeys or
pork shoulders. A general 'rule of thumb' is to feed 2-3 percent daily
of the dog's optimum adult weight. If your dog is too thin, feed more;
too fat, feed less. Very active or more sedentary dogs will need more
or less food accordingly.

I think I covered your questions and more, but let me know if you have
any others I can help with.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi everyone! I'm the proud owner of an almost 2 year old APBT and an
> almost 3 year old Rott/Dobe. The APBT is a good healthy weight for
> his bone structure and the rott/dobe I try to keep a bit on the
> lighter side to prevent hip issues for farther down the road.
>
> A little over 4 months ago, I switched to raw cold turkey with
> Nature's Variety medallions. I was afraid that I didn't have enough
> knowledge to make my own raw diet and thought it would be a good
> transition. The dogs loved it, and within days I saw a significant
> reduction in poo as well as the "quality" of their poo (more solid).
> I quickly discovered that they didn't take to the "game-ier" meats,
> like rabbit but put up with venison.
>
> This is currently what I feed per day:
>
> 1lb of a "meat mixture" from the butcher's shop (70% ground beef,
> 20% offal and 10% lamb)
>
> ~ 1lb of chicken backs
>
> I tried a diet I got from another raw feeding friend for one batch,
> but before I went through the trouble of making it up again, (it
> took over an hour for not even three days worth of food), I wanted
> to make sure it was a complete diet.
>
> 8lbs of the dog meat mixture
> 1lb of carrot, spinach and alfafa grass
> 1lb of blueberries and apples
> 5oz of crushed flax seed
> 50z of yogurt
> 1 can of sardines
>
> If there are any other easy diets that don't include the "game-ier"
> meats I'd love to hear them and try them out! I tried to feed whole
> rabbit to no avail and they also don't seem to take to buffalo meat.
>
> I suppose I should add that on top of the chicken backs that they
> get everyday for bone, they also get RMB every few days.
>
> Thanks in advance. : )
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: New to Raw: Is this diet okay?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:07 am ((PDT))

"cadence_nakashima" <cadence_nakashima@...> wrote:
>> This is currently what I feed per day:
>
> 1lb of a "meat mixture" from the butcher's shop (70% ground beef,
> 20% offal and 10% lamb)
>
> ~ 1lb of chicken backs
>
> I tried a diet I got from another raw feeding friend for one batch,
> but before I went through the trouble of making it up again, (it
> took over an hour for not even three days worth of food), I wanted
> to make sure it was a complete diet.
>
> 8lbs of the dog meat mixture
> 1lb of carrot, spinach and alfafa grass
> 1lb of blueberries and apples
> 5oz of crushed flax seed
> 50z of yogurt
> 1 can of sardines
*****
I recommend you get rid of everything but the chicken backs and
whatever your other "RMBs" are, and that you evaluate the worthiness
of those RMBs. I would guess they are predominately bone. Oh, and
the canned sardines--while not raw-can stay as an easy source of
Omega 3 fatty acids. Raw fish would be best however, and no fish is
required.

Your dogs do not need vegetables and fruit (except perhaps in the
mind of the anthropomorphic feeder who believes that dogs eat what--
and how--humans eat. Vegetables and fruit are of no nutritional
value to dogs. And dairy, except as a treat and even then preferably
in its raw, unprocessed condition, is of no particular value either.

Flaxseeds are an inefficient, counterproductive source of essential
fatty acids--what flaxseed oil has is a precursor to linolenic acid,
and converting the precursor (alpha-linolenic acid) to the viable
version requires more energy than the oil is worth. Flaxseed oil in
its own right can cause itching, and the crushed seeds have no more
value than any other roughly processed plant fiber: bulk but no
nutritional value. Flax is not your dogs' friend.

If you want to supplement with Omega 3, use salmon oil or fish BODY
oil or other "marine" oils. In EVERY instance, animal-based oil will
be more useful to a dog than plant-based oil. Ideally (although
perhaps not realistically, alas) the most efficient source of the
proper essential fatty acids (in the healthy proportions) is
pastured, fully grassfed meat, domestic or wild.

Since it would be uneconomical to dump your supply of prefab food, I
recommend you feed through it and when it's gone you do not buy
more. While you are feeding through that stuff, you can do a bit of
catch-up reading to see what you might be feeding instead. You will
find. to your relief I hope, that best way to feed your dogs is also
the easiest and mostly likely the cheapest way.

A good raw diet consists primarily of MEAT. Ideally whole hunks,
chunks, wads, whacks, pieces, sections, strips of the stuff; or
wrapped lusciously, lasciviously, seductively, rapturously around a
section of edible or partially edible bone; or--best!--attached to a
whole appropriate critter. Fully 80% of a dog's diet can be meat
which includes fat, skin and connective tissue as well as flesh).

Little more than 10% fully edible, consumable BONE needs to be fed.
This is not a lot of bone! You do not have to measure this out to
feed a good raw diet, so no, there will not be a test later. This
meager percent is here primarily to remind you that you do not have
to feed much edible bone at all.

My guess is your RMBs are primarily bone. And then there are the
chicken backs you feed for even more bone. If you choose to continue
feeding as you are now, the single change I believe you should make
is stop feeding a 1:1 ratio of bone to meat! For every pound (16
ounces) of that prefab stuff you feed, only 1.6 (one point six)
ounces of bone are needed for nutritional adequacy. Even if you were
to rock out and double the amount of edible bone you provide, you'd
only be feeding a bit over 3 ounces (three ounces).

And how much edible bone are you feeding? Whatever's in the RMBs you
offer (probably at least half the RMB is edible bone) and probably
half a pound (eight ounces) in that pound of chicken backs you feed
every day.

That is a huge amount of edible bone, day after day after day! At
least half that should be replaced with lovely, nutritious meat.

The third element in a good species appropriate diet is ORGAN MEAT.
Overall, perhaps 10% of the diet can be devoted to squishy internal
organs, and of that a mere three to five percent needs to be liver;
the balance can be divvied up across kidney and spleen and glands,
however you can find them.

Heart, tongue and skin, while "officially" organs, are counted as
meat in a good raw diet. So feed lots of heart if you want but it
doesn't fulfill your dogs' need for the really squishy, slimy stuff.

That's it: meat, edible bone, organs. No veggies, no fruit, no
grains, no legumes, no processing, no grinding, no blending.

The food you feed you can find at supermarkets, at ethnic grocers,
though meat wholesalers, from farms and ranches, from hunters, over
the internet. You can buy whole animals (chicken, rabbit, turkey,
fish), you can buy parts (pork, lamb, goat, venison), you can even
include ground meats (specialty meats like emu or ostrich or green
tripe) in a good raw diet.

I urge you to browse the list archives for topics of interest.
Here's how: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

Also check out

http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net (click on "recipes")
http://rawlearning.com

Have fun!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: HOW LONG CAN I HOLD OUT NOT FEEDING STUBBORN CAT :(
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:42 am ((PDT))

> thx casey. i thought once on raw, always raw. not to ever give the dry
> stuff?

Ah, if only it were that simple! Not with cats - some never look back, but
some require a "song and dance" period where it's one step forward, two
steps back...frustrating, but not the end of the world.

>i will try. came home and gave some water based canned
> sardines. she ate about one ounce and up it came.

Yum, regurgitated sardines. Always fun to clean up. Bleh!

>will try again in
> the morning. i just feel bad that allie wants some evo when my other
> bad girl wont budge on raw so i am stuck cuz of the 24 hr thing.

Don't be afraid to use the Evo as a bribe on the raw - you have to do what
works, right?

>
> I like your style. how long on raw for you guys?

Oh...six years, now? Trust me though, I did my fair share of
head-banging-into-wall over switching cats, so I feel your pain.

Casey

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:29 am ((PDT))

As I understand it, there is no breed-specific raw feeding guidelines,
only species appropriate, i.e., dogs, cats, ferrets. Regarding the
issue of zoonosis - diseases transmitted between animals and humans -
Toxoplasmosis is the only one I know of. It's a parasite animals
contract by eating infected meat, by contact with cat feces or by
transmission from mother to fetus. It's fairly rare to find meat
infected with this parasite in the USA. Anything's possible. Just not
likely. Pamela

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "thajoshow" <thajoshow@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Caitlin, I'd love to join this group, as I've been having trouble
> finding Siamese info as well. I wanted to switch my Siamese kitten
> to raw, and have been trying to figure out what would be best for
> him...also concerned about the possibility of him getting parasites
> and passing them to me...I read that this was a problem with feeding
> raw, as supposedly they can pass these things to humans just by
> licking them....

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:44 am ((PDT))

Hmmm, the CDC says;
http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/animals/cats.htm
There are no more possibilities of passing zoonotic diseases from raw
fed cats than kibble fed cats, IMO.
I got Cat Scratch Fever as a child, had a swollen lymph node removed
from my armpit. The kitten was kibble fed.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "thajoshow" <thajoshow@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Caitlin, I'd love to join this group, as I've been having trouble
> > finding Siamese info as well. I wanted to switch my Siamese kitten
> > to raw, and have been trying to figure out what would be best for
> > him...also concerned about the possibility of him getting parasites
> > and passing them to me...I read that this was a problem with feeding
> > raw, as supposedly they can pass these things to humans just by
> > licking them....
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Natural Siamese Cats
Posted by: "Suzie G" gusmyhairyboy@charter.net gusmyhairyboy
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:41 am ((PDT))

----- Original Message -----
From: thajoshow
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 11:24 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Natural Siamese Cats

Hi,Suzie G. here

I have 2 12 year old apple head Siamese. In the past I tried to switch them over to raw (all my dogs eat raw) but either had trouble getting them to eat or had them eat and then found GROSS vomit scattered throughout the house.(especially on my bed!) I would be interested in a group like this.

Suzie G.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. what to do while we're on holiday
Posted by: "Verity-Anne Dokter" verityanne@gmail.com daem0nette
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

We have a bit of a problem, in that we're going away on holiday for a
week and the kids are going to their kennel. They are happy to feed
your own food as long as you provide it so last time we had them there
since we started raw, i got premade 1kg bags of ground chicken (with
bones) that just needed to be defrosted and then fed to them (they'd
never agree to feed whole pieces as well as offal etc).

Everything was fine (or so i thought) until the woman mentioned to me
when i fetched them that she'd forgotten to defrost food a couple of
times, and she'd put the bag of food in the microwave to defrost. I
nearly had a fit, because microwaves DON'T defrost evenly and some of
the chicken (around the edges) gets cooked.

Now, we're going away again and i'm not entirely sure what to do. I
know cooked chicken bones are a no-no but how much damage could they
do if they're ground up small anyway? The only alternative i can see
is to buy a bag of good quality kibble and have her feed them that
instead. I'm racking my brain here - but i cant seem to think of
anything else! I know that if i don't think of something soon I'll
spend our whole week away worrying about them. We don't often go away
and when we do we usually take them with us.

Please help! Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Verity

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: what to do while we're on holiday
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:31 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Verity-Anne Dokter"
<verityanne@...> wrote:
>

You are making a big deal out of nothing. Don't worry about it. A
couple of meals of microwave thawed ground chicken is not a big
deal.
Even if it was put in a regular oven and cooked for 20 or 30
minutes, it still wouldn't be all that bad. Of course a regular diet of that over a long period isn't good, but a few meals doesn't hurt.

A couple of meals of kibble is a much bigger deal and I would never
do that.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: what to do while we're on holiday
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Verity-Anne Dokter"
<verityanne@...> wrote:
>
They are happy to feed
> your own food as long as you provide it
>(they'd
> never agree to feed whole pieces as well as offal etc).

@@@ Did you ask if they would feed whole pieces?

> The only alternative i can see
> is to buy a bag of good quality kibble and have her feed them that
> instead.

@@@ You could ask that if she forgets to defrost again, that she do
so in warm water instead of the microwave. You could also just leave
boneless meat--a week without bone or offal will do no harm to adult
dogs (I'm assuming we're not talking wee pups here). I doubt that a
short time in the microwave would cook ground bone to the point it
is dangerous. She could also just feed the stuff frozen. Unless you
have tiny dogs that might get chilled eating frozen food.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: next best thing
Posted by: "saphiradane" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

>
>

those who really and truly WANT to do something will always
> find a way to do it. Likewise, those who do NOT deeply want to do
> something -- although they might like the appearance of wanting to
do
> it -- will always have reasons why they just, goshdarnit, can't do
it.
>(First to my mind: what does your friend himself
> eat? And why can't the dog utilize similar food sources? I
> sincerely doubt your friend eats nothing but kibble while traveling
> for weeks on end!)
>
> But if you're looking for someone to pat you and your friend on the
> back and say, there there, you tried, but I guess he can't feed
raw --
> well, we're not the group to do it.
>
> -- sandy & griffin
>
As I mentioned I am new at raw as wells as this list. I truly
want to help this dog or I would not have ask for help on a subject
that I knew may be sensitive.Clearly we are trying to find a way. I
dont want a pat on the back. I was looking for experienced advice.To
provide more info: the owner eats whatever, sometimes he out, often
lunchmeat or sandwhiches not exactly healthy,; but it the dog we are
helping. He has a cooler but still u can only fit so much in a
cooler. They both sleep in the truck the back seat to be exact.
Sometimes they are gone for over a month at a time. Also they
sometimes go across the Canada border. That is an issue because no
beef is allowed or ruminant.We have already had that problem and the
dog is not on raw yet. The dog is a 45lb blue heeler if that is
important. Any other info that will help please let me know. Thanks
for ur advice. Felicia

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: next best thing
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:49 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "saphiradane" <saphiradane@...>
wrote:
>
> To
> provide more info: the owner eats whatever, sometimes he out,
often
> lunchmeat or sandwhiches not exactly healthy,; but it the dog we
are
> helping. He has a cooler but still u can only fit so much in a
> cooler.

@@@ I've traveled across the country with dogs on several occasions.
I do not worry about feeding the dogs--there are grocery stores
everywhere. When I stop for a snack for myself, I can cruise by the
meat isle and see what is on sale and feed that.

> Also they
> sometimes go across the Canada border. That is an issue because no
> beef is allowed

@@@ Canada, last time I was there, also had grocery stores. No need
to take food across the border.

> The dog is a 45lb blue heeler if that is
> important. Any other info that will help please let me know.

@@@ If there is room in the truck for a bag of kibble, there is room
for another cooler. If cost is an issue, before he leaves on a trip,
pack the cooler with frozen raw foods in meal portions. As they are
used up, replace with ice to keep the rest frozen. That should keep
a small dog in food for a couple of weeks. If cost is not an issue,
he can feed the dog from the same grocery stores he goes to. Prices
may fluctuate some across the country, but a 44# dog doesn't eat
that much, really.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: next best thing
Posted by: "Ross Senger" rosssenger@shaw.ca rosssenger
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

> @@@ Canada, last time I was there, also had grocery stores. No
> need
> to take food across the border.

I live in Canada and can second this statement :P

When I travel I pack a small cooler with meat (generally I can get about 2-3 days to start), Then I just hit up grocery stores wherever I go.

I feed two Great Danes, so it is about 5-6 lbs per day... a little more expensive but absolutly do-able

-Ross S

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Newbie - just took the plunge
Posted by: "sgubernatis" sgubernatis@clearviewcatv.net sgubernatis
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))

Good morning, all. I've been lurking for a week or two, reading
messages from July and June. I think I understand. What's to
understand? It's all so very simple.

I have boxers. I'm a very small time breeder who only breeds when I
want something for the show ring. Since September I have lost 4
(four) boxers. Three to cancer and 1 to cardio problems. To say the
least I am in shock. I currently have a 7 year old bitch (Jane) and
a 17 month old dog (Elvis). Elvis has always been a terrible eater.
I would buy a kibble product (not a cheap one), mix with some canned
and he would eat it for 3 or 4 meals and then refuse it. So of
course, I would go on a desperate search for something he would eat.

I was at dog shows about a month ago and I stopped to talk to one of
the vendors that I have known for years. He is a distributor for
several "good" brands of dog food. I asked him if there was anything
on the market that no dog could refuse. He's a good guy and instead
of trying to sell me something he distributes he suggested trying a
raw diet. Of course he was talking about a pre-made but he had no
financial interest in the pre-made. He even told me where to find
it. Turned out the store was about 3/4 mile from my house. So I
immediately (on the way home from the show!) stopped and my dogs were
on Nature's Variety that night. He loved it. Of course, my boxer
bitch will eat anything that doesn't eat her first! After a few days
I added some chicken necks. Both were thrilled and were very 'sane'
about eating them. A lot of crunching going on.

Then I found this list. I've been lurking and learning. So last
night I took the plunge. I gave each of them a chicken quarter.
Jane was thrilled. She sniffed and licked for about 30 seconds
before she dove in. Elvis (who always takes his cue from Jane)
licked and licked and licked. He kept watching Jane. Now he knows
if he walks away from his food she will get it. I've been using that
to my advantage. When Jane finishes eating I call her to my side and
she will wait with me while Elvis is eating. It's kind of a peer
pressure thing and it has helped with Elvis. Anyway, he licked and
sniffed and pushed it around. He really wanted to eat it but
couldn't quite figure out how to begin. Finally, after about 40
minutes he figured it out! What fun! It was really thrilling to
watch these dogs actually having fun with their food. When Elvis was
finished he actually strutted around like he was some big alpha stud
dog. It was so obvious that this is what he needed. He was trying
to tell me all along by refusing his kibble. I finally got the
message.

After months and months and months of pulling my hair out trying to
get him to a show weight he is finally happy to eat and it's not an
issue anymore. I have a bit of the Nature's Variety left and will
finish that out but from then on it's going to be fresh raw meat and
bones with a touch of organ meat. It's so easy. My dogs are happy
and so am I.

Thanks so much for being there. Can't guarentee that I won't ask
some stupid question in the future so be patient with me.

I don't expect to wipe out cancer in my house but at least I know my
dogs are not getting a bunch of additives.

Sue Gubernatis
Forest Hill Maryland

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Newbie - just took the plunge
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:49 am ((PDT))

> What fun! It was really thrilling to watch these dogs actually
having fun with their food.

> Sue Gubernatis
> Forest Hill Maryland

I totally agree! On occasions when I have the time to sit and watch,
I've found it to be a very rewarding experience. My youngest, Sassy,
absolutely loves playing with the last bit of food before she swallows
it whole. She'll toss it up into the air repeatedly and prance around
the yard like she's won a prize.

A simple pleasure that starts the day off right!

Jeff

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: Newbie - just took the plunge
Posted by: "Sue Gubernatis" sgubernatis@clearviewcatv.net sgubernatis
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:51 am ((PDT))

I forgot to mention that my Jane has wiped out the groundhog population at
my house. Since spring she has caught and killed 5 groundhogs. Either she
got them all or the rest decided to pick up house and move on. I guess the
first time was solely by accident. I let them out into the fenced yard and
they go running behind the garage up on the hill. I heard a loud commotion
and went running. Within seconds she had killed the groundhog. Elvis was
standing close by cheering her on. They were both so excited. We took it
away from her before she could eat it because we didn't know anything about
raw feeding at that point. My dogs are, of course, current on their rabies
shots. Well after the first time whenever I let them out of the house they
go tearing out like mad dogs in anticipation of catching another groundhog.
Each time I have gone over her from head to toe looking for any injuries.
She has never had a scratch on her. She must be an efficient hunter. I
took a look at one of those creatures and they have huge teeth and claws.
Yet she has never had a scratch. She did devour one before we got it away
from her. We, of course at that point, were horrified. She was as pleased
as punch with herself.

Sue Gubernatis
Forest Hill, MD

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8. new to this group
Posted by: "Jennifer" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:46 am ((PDT))

Hello,

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9. I love my vet!
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:47 am ((PDT))

I brought my kitty in for his regular check up and senior panel this
week. Of course, the vet checked his teeth and remarked about how
gross they are. (I know! They are disgusting!) I sheepishly
explained how I would rather maintain a friendly relationship with my
kitty than brush his teeth regularly. But, then went on to remind him
that we feed raw to our dog, and that I've renewed my many failed
attempts to switch the cat over as well. The vet was actually
overjoyed that I decided to try again! He had all kinds of
suggestions for ways to bribe and fool the cat into eating raw, and
even some suggestions for stores where I can get whole ground chicken
(bones and organs included) to get him started. He basically said
"run, don't walk, to the store and buy this cat some raw food." He
said he'd rather I had a healthy cat than give him all kinds of money
for dental cleanings and kidney treatments, etc.
Best of all, having the vet's endorsement has helped nudge my husband
into thinking that I'm not a crazy hippie extremist.
Our vet is a totally normal guy. He's not a naturopath, or a
homeopath, or well versed in oriental theories. He's just your
average American vet who happens to believe that dogs and cats aren't
designed to eat our manufactured kibble and canned food.
If anyone in the Portland Oregon area is looking for a vet that puts a
lot of thought into the medicine he practices and is responsible with
his client's money, I'd be happy to pass along his name and number.
What a thrill to have a vet that encourages and supports our decision
to feed our pets a healthy diet!
Erica, Oliver, Pedro, and Ronin.

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Orange Roughly from NZ
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:48 am ((PDT))

>in Australia, orange roughy is regarded as an excellent fish for humans!! It's very expensive >to buy here, and often in short supply,

Hi,Bob.Thank you for your posting. Orange roughly is real new to me and never seen before ,never heard of,but I picked up and I guess it was good one,then.

The price-wise,it was not as cheap as shark fillet that I have got before(1 fillet 1 dollar),but it was so so price;1 package 3 dollars;I am thinking if was around 0.78lb or something.
It was not trociously expensive and i am kind of adventurous person for food field ( I try new thing when I find one),so,I got it.It is now in freezer but I think I feed palette next week.

If someone wanted to know where I got it,it was at frozen section of seafood counter of Giant.

It was not whole fish but still my dog can get different taste of different fish and i get to taste maybe some:-P Can't wait!

Thanks Bob.

yassy

---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11. calcium/phosphorous ration
Posted by: "swilken61" powrfemme@aol.com swilken61
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

Hello All,

I'd like some advice on the calcium/phosphorous ratio. If I am
feeding meat and bones do I need to worry. I am feeding two dogs, 10
lb and 15 lb, and one cat 10 lb. The more I read through this post,
I'm thinking I need advice on fine tuning also.

I feed them mostly chicken and lamb right now, I've only been at it
about a month or so, and I will be adding turkey, and possibly rabbit
when I can find it.

The cat, she is a little more stubborn and we are still transitioning
her. She took to lamb almost immediately, then threw it up, so we are
sticking to chichen mixed with her favorite wet food. She does still
get some dry food, I have a sabatuer in the house who isn't totally
convinced. That is, she sees how much better the dogs are, but the
cat is her baby and she worries that I am "forcing her to eat food
she doesn't like". My concern is that since she doesn't eat much bone
just yet, is she getting enough calcium and when should I really
worry about that? I do give her a calcium supplement and the
multivitamin supplement. If I eventually get her to eat chicken
necks, how much will be the right amount for her calcium? She does
seem to like the liver, the gizzard I tried for the first time last
night and she wasn't impressed. I've read some posts saying that
chicken necks alone are too bony.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

stephany

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: Gauge
Posted by: "lizwehrli" lizwehrli@yahoo.com lizwehrli
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:37 am ((PDT))

Hi Tracey,

I am so sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you.

I also have standard poodles, Gus and Emma. Gus has addisons disease
which is any adrenal insufficiency. It isn't an uncommon disease in
stnadards, in fact UC Davis is trying to find a genetic marker to help
in the breeding to eradicate the disease. Symptoms are inappetance,
lethargy, hind end weakness and a whole host of other things. There
is a website www.addisondogs.com that helped me figure out what was
wrong with him.

Liz

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "frustrated_tracey" <wagc@...> wrote:
>
> My 15 week old standard poodle puppy died tonight.
>
>
> Tracey
>

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------