Feed Pets Raw Food

Sunday, December 2, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12339

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Laura Bonavia
1b. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Chia
1c. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Chia
1e. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: puppy chocking on food
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: puppy chocking on food
From: vickies_28
2c. Re: puppy chocking on food
From: Laurie Swanson
2d. Re: puppy chocking on food
From: katkellm

3a. Re: Heartworm tx and raw
From: ginny wilken

4a. Re: Question about freezer burned meat.
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Question about freezer burned meat.
From: Anndrea

5a. Re: Bone/ Meat ratio...Archives?
From: jennifer_hell

6a. Re: Calcium - advice needed
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Here is a new twist on this issue
From: mozookpr
7b. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
From: Michelle R
7c. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
From: katkellm

8.1. File - Other related lists
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

9a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

10. am I feeding enough?
From: Ashley Myers

11a. my dog isn't eating raw
From: Brandon Van Every
11b. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: Chia
11c. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: Yasuko herron

12. Rabbit,Buffalo source
From: Yasuko herron

13. Re: Raw Book list
From: Sarah Meyers


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Laura Bonavia" lasme8@yahoo.com thebunnylady
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 8:37 am ((PST))

Hello Members,

My name is Laura and I am learning about the raw
feeding and was told this group would be helpful. I
have a 2 year old Border Collie and started him on raw
yesterday morning.

Was told by the distributer to wean off the kibble by
mixing with the ground raw and after a few days add
the organ meat and then introduce the wings, necks
etc. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

I was anxious and so I offered a turkey neck but he is
not too interested. Should I just leave it outside
(it's snowing) keep putting in the refrigerator and
re-introducing it?

I know that the ground with the bonemeal is not
recommended but felt I needed to get his digestive
juices started and then figure it out.

I had tried to intoduce bones in the past and unless I
had braised them, he wouldn't eat it.

Laura


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Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 8:49 am ((PST))

My name is Laura and I am learning about the raw
feeding and was told this group would be helpful. I
have a 2 year old Border Collie and started him on raw
yesterday morning.

### hey Laura, :-))

Congratulations on doing the BEST thing for your boy! My Border Collie is
now 6 and I switched him over at 6 months.

Was told by the distributer to wean off the kibble by
mixing with the ground raw and after a few days add
the organ meat and then introduce the wings, necks
etc. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

### unfortunately, bad advice. Kibble takes MUCH longer to digest then
ground raw so mixing the two can add to digestive upset.

Secondly, ground meat takes mere seconds to consume, much like kibble, and
due to ground being heavy in bacteria, gulping it down quickly does not
stimulate the stomach acids to be prepared for incoming so it sits there,
like a lump...much longer then if you fed appropriate food, in large
portions or WHOLE.

When you stray from the way nature designed dogs to eat, usually some sort
of digestive upset occurs, either runny poop or poop that is too bony as
just two examples. When you feed as nature DID intend, the transition is
much cleaner and saves them discomfort. So, obviously ground meat has had
intervention by man, correct? BUT, a whole or half chicken, perhaps only
de-headed and de-feathered is much more appropriate. Your dog may take a
day, maybe two, maybe three, to learn how to eat whole, large items, but
that is up to him. Hunger always wins out barring no health issues. It is
up to you to be tough and let him teach himself what his teeth were meant to
do.

I was anxious and so I offered a turkey neck but he is
not too interested. Should I just leave it outside
(it's snowing) keep putting in the refrigerator and
re-introducing it?

### necks are great when attached to the whole bird or down the road, when
your dog is an experienced, raw fed dog and you know his eating style and HE
knows, how to eat without greed and gulping. I would not feed those for
now, and stick to HUGE pieces.

I know that the ground with the bonemeal is not
recommended but felt I needed to get his digestive
juices started and then figure it out.

### you have it the opposite of what it is supposed to be. The digestive
juices grow strong by stimulation...gnawing, ripping, tearing..having to
'work' for his meals...not gulp down ground in mere seconds. That teaches
him nothing and creates the very digestive upset you are looking to avoid.

I had tried to intoduce bones in the past and unless I
had braised them, he wouldn't eat it.

### it's called tough love... with Border Collies, not all, but
some...they are genius at manipulation. Put the food down, perhaps tear the
flesh...or even warm in a bit of room temperature water prior to feeding.

If he does not eat in 15 minutes, it gets put away without ANY emotion
until 24 hours later, period. After a few days of this he will learn that
YOU are in charge and he eats what is give. You have to break the cycle now
that you created. Picky eater are made, not born. Believe me, my dog tried
all this crap..but NO more and he is the healthiest, leanest Border Collie
you could possible see....next to Chris O's BC ;-))

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

Chia <chia.m@...> wrote:
> Congratulations on doing the BEST thing for your boy! My Border
Collie is
> now 6 and I switched him over at 6 months.
*****
Chia! Hello stranger.
I am so glad you chose this moment to reappear; I cannot imagine
anyone better suited to give advice for newbie border collies than
you! Ricco put you through the WRINGER when you switched him (and I
cannot believe that was 5-1/2 years ago, no way!) and you persevered
and my, what excellent results. Good to see ya.

Attention all of you are who just now switching your border collies
to raw: Pay heed to Chia's experiences. Browse the archives for her
posts.


he is the healthiest, leanest Border Collie
> you could possible see....next to Chris O's BC ;-))
*****
I have seen some pretty scrawny border collies, but they are not lean
as in athletic and healthy, just poorly fed. And yes, Tess is lean.
And shiny and healthy and altogether spiffy.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 9:22 am ((PST))

I have seen some pretty scrawny border collies, but they are not lean
as in athletic and healthy, just poorly fed. And yes, Tess is lean.
And shiny and healthy and altogether spiffy.
### exactly! I would think, due to BCs being so 'job driven'...whether
it be a soccer ball or sheep, would tend to be scrawny due to their passion
to work, even superseding eating. If I put a whole, delicious meal out for
Ricco but asked him to play hide & seek with his various toys, the food
would sit out for days.

So, my point is, that a commercial fed BC would perhaps look 'scrawny'
just because not only are they consuming sub-standard fare, but they don't
even like to eat much in the first place. At least not my boy...although I
have heard that from other BC owners....the BCs compulsion to work is higher
then the need to eat. Essentially, they eat how we ALL should. Eat to
live, NOT live to eat. A raw fed dog is always SO much more content anyways
that the behaviour of trolling for food is unheard of in most cases. (not
all...)

Ricco is SO muscled...and SO leggy it is unbelievable...not one ounce of
fat on him except what is essential. And still, he eats three to five times
per week.... he is a genetic anomaly...my little brat!

So good to see you Chris! Give Tess kisses....

Chia & Ricco
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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

Hi Laura,

You will find that rawfeeding is so simple...you don't need a distributor or
ground products, you don't need to wean and most likely do not want to be
feeding necks and wings which are far too small and bony. Turkey necks may
be ok for some dogs but until you know your dog's eating habits, I would
hold off on them also,

The best way to switch is to get a whole chicken (or turkey), cut it into
serving sized portions and hand to dog. Once he has adjusted, you will
begin adding in variety, red meat and organs. The normal prey of a
carnivore is approximately 80% meat, 10% edible bone and 10% organs so that
is the ultimate goal.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Laura Bonavia" <lasme8@yahoo.com>
>
> Was told by the distributer to wean off the kibble by
> mixing with the ground raw and after a few days add
> the organ meat and then introduce the wings, necks
> etc. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: puppy chocking on food
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 8:53 am ((PST))

"vickies_28" <vickies_28@...> wrote:
> Anybody can advise on what it might have been? Any advice?
*****
-Don't put edible bones on the menu when someone else does the feeding.
-Don't feed turkey necks. Or,
-Don't feed hen necks, feed only tom necks and feed them whole.
-Feed larger parts when gulping might be an issue, not smaller.

Obviously your pup got it down; my guess is it didn't get stuck (or got
stuck for a very short time) but that it did hurt going down. And that
he scared himself as well as your husband.

You do not mention the size of your pup but even for smallish or medium
breeds a turkey neck can easily be perceived as easy to swallow, since
it is the right shape and apparently the right size (our dogs often
have greatly inflated opinions of their abilities; just as we often
under-estimate what they are capable of). If you want to keep turkey
necks on the menu, switch up to tom necks. It is better to feed body
parts that are "too big" and take them away than it is to feed parts
that are "too small" and worry about the consequences.

I do not feed turkey necks except to my cats. When a 10lb cat can eat
(in a remarkably short time) most of a hen neck, that tells me hen
hecks are not what I want to feed to my ambitious dogs.

I'm glad everything worked out okay; any gray hairs your husband might
have gotten from the experience will make him look distinguished.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: puppy chocking on food
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:10 pm ((PST))

Hello All
thanks for all your feedback here.
My pup is a 52 lbs basset hound. And the necks I feed a not small for
what I can say. They are about 1.5-2" wide and about 9" long. Is it
too small?
And I don't feed exclusively necks. I feed a variety of beef, pork,
cut up whole chikens and organs and fish too. So fro the variety
standpoint he is fine.
I understand that I shouldn't probably feed those necks anymore, but
the thing is that I stocked up on them around Thanksgiving - were
real cheap. So I am not sure what to do now. I once came across
smaller turkey necks(0.5" thick and 4" long) and those he can smallow
all he wants, they are too small for him to choke on. But the bigger
ones I reall "fat" - thicker.
So what do you recommend - just throw them out?
Also, I have no access to any other body parts except what's being
sold at a supermarket. We don't have butchers around here. And the
only other store selling meat that is not a chain supermarket sells
only human cuts and no less then $8/lbs.
So the other day I bought beef ribs and my pup did'nt know what to do
with it. He didn't know how to get the meat off the bone. So started
chewing the bone so I had to take it away, was afraid he will damage
his teeth.
You all recommend feeding big chuncks of beef ribs - I have no idea
what they look like. All I get is cut up small things at the store.
Can someone send a picture please?
And what are tom necks?
Vickie


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "vickies_28" <vickies_28@> wrote:
> > Anybody can advise on what it might have been? Any advice?
> *****
> -Don't put edible bones on the menu when someone else does the
feeding.
> -Don't feed turkey necks. Or,
> -Don't feed hen necks, feed only tom necks and feed them whole.
> -Feed larger parts when gulping might be an issue, not smaller.
>
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: puppy chocking on food
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 3:18 pm ((PST))

Hi Vickie,

If you do end up not being able to use the necks, you might see if
there's someone near you (post here and maybe on rawcat as to what area
you're in and have people reply privately) who has a smaller dog or a
cat who wants to buy them from you. Or you could chop them up smaller
into bite-sized pieces so he can't choke on them.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (8)
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2d. Re: puppy chocking on food
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...> wrote:
>> So what do you recommend - just throw them out?

Hi Vickie,
I would say that now you know your dog and that he is not a turkey
neck eating kinda guy. However, i agree with Laura, i wouldn't toss
them out. I would, just to use them up and not be wasteful, cut them
into too small to choke on pieces. This is a good fix for the now,
but shouldn't be used as a way to feed turkey necks forever because
you would be depriving your dog of some of the benefits of raw, dental
cleaning, mental challenge, and physical workout.


> He didn't know how to get the meat off the bone. So started
> chewing the bone so I had to take it away, was afraid he will damage
> his teeth.
> You all recommend feeding big chuncks of beef ribs - I have no idea
> what they look like. All I get is cut up small things at the store.
> Can someone send a picture please?

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/RecipePhotos/9

If you fed a single rib, you could have a problem, but if you had 4 or
more ribs attached together, they were probably ok to feed. The ends
of the ribs, in my experience, are eatable for my dogs. Its kind of
like popping the cap off a bottle of Pepsi-that's how you get it started.

> And what are tom necks?
They are the necks of male turkeys. Normally, you can order them by
the case from a butcher, whole and uncut, and since they are the males
neck they are the bigger, thicker, longer ones. Most people who
successfully feed/recommend turkey necks use these. KathyM

Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Heartworm tx and raw
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 8:54 am ((PST))


On Dec 2, 2007, at 5:03 AM, Cdandp2@aol.com wrote:

> My rescue cocker was diagnosed with moderate/high heartworm (could
> see them
> on x-rays and, of course, antigen positive) almost 2 years ago.

Hi, Carol: If both you and the original poster could take this to
Rawchat, there are other things to say, as you know.

ginny and Tomo


All stunts performed without a net!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Question about freezer burned meat.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 8:59 am ((PST))

"Anndrea" <anndreae@...> wrote:
>
> Is there a limit to how long you can keep frozen meat and still be
> able to feed it to your dogs?
>
> Like, if I have a freezer full of meat, and it's all freezer burned,
> and I keep it frozen solid for ten years, can I still feed it to my
dogs?
*****
It will lose nutritional value little by little and will probably look
bleak but while freezing will not kill all the bacteria it will kill
some and certainly slow the reproductive abilities of others. It's not
likely to be "bad", just ugly.

I say offer it and if the dogs eat it, good; if not, oh well.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Question about freezer burned meat.
Posted by: "Anndrea" anndreae@yahoo.com anndreae
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 4:12 pm ((PST))


> It will lose nutritional value little by little and will probably look
> bleak but while freezing will not kill all the bacteria it will kill
> some and certainly slow the reproductive abilities of others. It's not
> likely to be "bad", just ugly.
>
> I say offer it and if the dogs eat it, good; if not, oh well.


Awesome. I was just asking because I can't give my dogs raw right now
because I am staying with friends and every time I put Holly on raw,
she gets diarrhea. Right now I can't have my freezer here, and can't
get her out often enough if she has diarrhea. She goes out often
enough that she doesn't have any accidents, but if she had diarrhea it
wouldn't be often enough. Hope that made sense.

Anyway, my point is that my freezer is in my sister's garage (plugged
in of course) and has a bunch of meat in it...I just wondered if there
was any reason to keep it.

Sounds like there is :-)

Thanks Chris O!

anndrea


Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Bone/ Meat ratio...Archives?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 9:17 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:

> Hi Jennifer,
> Is this what you were looking for?
>
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/55017
>
Yes, thank you! That's good info.

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Calcium - advice needed
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

Jessica,

I am not a breeder, but here are a couple of past discussions that may
benefit you.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/111880
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/119004 - another good
discussion. Be sure to look at Laura's responses!

What exactly have you been feeding? What is in the supplement other than
kelp (which I wouldn't recommend because of it's effect on the thyroid).

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <noneedman@aol.com>

My toy dogs just whelped, first raw litter, and one seized up
> yesterday due to calcium deficiency. Naturally my vet took this as a
time to
> tell me again that my dogs need a balanced dog food diet, I do not
believe this,
> but I do not want this to happen again. I am bottle feeding now while
she
> recoups, but any help on how to keep this from happening will be great.
Oh
> yeah,. right now I feed basically grocery store meat with a tsp. of kelp
> vegetarian blend supplement. No one showed any problems up until now,
and
> pregnancy went fine, two still born during whelping, now I am wondering
if it had to
> do with the calcium. Thanks in advance for any help.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Here is a new twist on this issue
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:33 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hiideel" <hiideel@> wrote:
>
> > More recently he has been refusing to eat unless we go outside
and
> > stand there with him.
>
>
I have an interesting twist on this problem. I just started raw
feeding a week ago, and while I feed inside and love to watch the
dogs eat, I have a Pomeranian who, at best, only picks at his food in
his crate, and at worst, won't touch it in there. He doesn't like to
eat in the kitchen, either, where I always kept the dog bowls when
the kids were getting doom nuggets -- he would grab a kibble or two
and carry it to the living room. Not so nice with raw chicken parts!

I thought the problem might be that he dislikes the hard floor of his
crate (I had, or course removed all bedding before feeding him), so I
tried leaving his mat in there yesterday. No dice, he just nibbled
at the food, then flipped the mat over the bowl. I removed the food,
and he followed me to the kitchen, obviously hungry. He ate a couple
pieces of pork roast that I hand-fed (we are working up to larger
chunks, but since he is not a gulper, my main goal is just getting
him to eat). Then he carried his chicken back into the living room,
chewed a bit, and then took it onto the couch.

The first couple of raw meals in the crate went just fine, so I
wonder why he has developed this aversion to eating there. I suppose
I could just insist that he do it, and keep removing the meals after
a few minutes until he gets the idea, but I hesitate to do that with
such a small dog. He has not had any digestive issues with raw,
perhaps it would not be too soon to offer some beef, which I know he
loves?

Any suggestions? I know this dog is spoiled, which is partly my
fault, but also largely the work of my elderly mom, who treats him
more like a grandchild than a dog. She has Alzheimer's, so any
requests I make of her about the handling of pets are either
dismissed as MY craziness, or speedily forgotten...sigh. I would
just harden my heart and feed him only in the crate, but I understand
that toy dogs are prone to hypoglycemia if they do not eat often
enough. Is this true of adult dogs, or only tiny puppies? Or, for
that matter, is it true at all? He is currently getting two meals a
day, totalling about 5 ounces, which should be appropriate for a 10.5
to 11 lb. dog. (Nope, he is not overweight, just kind of large Pom.
I know little dogs are easy to overfeed, and ask the vet about his
weight at every visit!)

Sorry to go on and on, but I have not spotted this particular problem
on here yet.

Thanks,

Wendy and Foxy.

Messages in this topic (9)
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7b. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 1:07 pm ((PST))

<I have an interesting twist on this problem. I just started raw
feeding a week ago, and while I feed inside and love to watch the
dogs eat, I have a Pomeranian who, at best, only picks at his food in
his crate, and at worst, won't touch it in there. He doesn't like to
eat in the kitchen, either, where I always kept the dog bowls when
the kids were getting doom nuggets -- he would grab a kibble or two
and carry it to the living room. Not so nice with raw chicken parts! >


Are you able to block off the room? Like with a baby gate, or by closing a door? When I do feed my bunch chunks of meat in the house,(as opposed to outside, which is where they usually eat) I can just close the bed & bath room and living room doors and let them have the run of the hall. I have vinyl flooring and a quick mop up after is all the clean up required. This gives them enough room for all of them to eat, contained, yet with enough space between them all not to induce riots, :-) I do have another whole crew, who all eat happily in their crates too....not eating is just not a typical problem when it comes to my kids, LOL

Dont beat yourself up over having a spoiled baby, we all have spoiled babies! Our dogs eat better than most people ! As for eating location, if you do get firm and insist he eats in the crate, after all, YOU are in charge, not him...he wont starve himself....he will eat. It just might take a day or so for him to understand whats going on. Hypoglycemia, can be a big issue with our little kids, usually just the tiny pups, but not unheard of in adult. Has he ever had a problem with this before or are you just being a concerned momma? If you try the firm route and insist he eats in his crate, I can see a possible issue, becuz if you insist he eats in his crate, and to avoid hypoglycemia, you offer handfed food thru out the day, you no longer have hunger on you side, when it comes down to actual meal time.
Another thing, if you are feeding 10 ounces and hes possibly a bit overweight and not eating well..why not just decrease the size of his meals? He is obviously not really hungry at this amount and doing well enough by just eating less. The big thing I see repeated time and time again, is for us new folks to not get caught up in feeding numbers....its not an exact science in the wild and does not need be in our homes either. If this were my dog, what I would do is just decrease his meal size a little bit....you dont mention if hes actually eating any of the 10 ounces or so hes being offered...another big thing to remember is that since raw is such a pure form of highly digestible perfect food, they usually need far less of it than they needed on doom nuggets. So chances are, hes telling you, in his own way, he just doesnt need everything hes getting. Like I have heard on here numerous times, ignore the scale, dont worry about feeding an "exact
percentage" each meal...just watch the dogs...they tell us whats right and also whats wrong..all we have to do is learn to listen. :-)
HTH,

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html


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Messages in this topic (9)
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7c. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:10 pm ((PST))

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:

> He doesn't like to
> eat in the kitchen, either, where I always kept the dog bowls when
> the kids were getting doom nuggets -- he would grab a kibble or two
> and carry it to the living room. Not so nice with raw chicken parts!

Hi Wendy,
How about putting a vinyl tablecloth in the living room and letting
him eat in there? The vinyl should keep the floor clean, and it might
be easier to teach him to keep it on the cloth than to get him to eat
elsewhere.

>He has not had any digestive issues with raw,
perhaps it would not be too soon to offer some beef, which I know he
loves?

If you have been raw feeding for a couple of weeks and only feeding
chicken, it is certainly time to move on. I would suggest adding some
beef or pork a little at a time to a smaller piece/amount of chicken.
I would just make sure he got some bone to keep things firmed up.


> He is currently getting two meals a
> day, totalling about 5 ounces, which should be appropriate for a 10.5
> to 11 lb. dog.

Would you consider dropping down to one meal a day? I think that
sometimes the two meal a day regime parcels out too much little food
and too much attention to eating aside from not letting the dog to
actually get hungry-not ever really full either- before more food is
offered and making them have to work at the meal which should keep him
from moving around so much--maybe. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (9)
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8.1. File - Other related lists
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 1:55 pm ((PST))


This list is part of a group of lists run by the same moderation team. Since several of the lists are quite large we often encourage that threads be taken to some of the smaller subject specific lists so you may want to join the lists that cover issues you are interested in now.

The lists are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldrawguys/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catandkittenhealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learntoshow/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DogHealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogmentor/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawbreeder/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawPup/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMBLobby/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canineaggression/

And if you are stuck on a particular issue that you just can't seem to work out, try this list:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/rawissues

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BasicRaw/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalFerrets/


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVet/
For vets, vet techs and vet students only

There is also a list of lists where other raw feeding lists can be found. Many are breed specific, location specific or subject specific.

http://www.rawlearning.com


Thanks from the moderation team!

Messages in this topic (123)
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9a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 1:55 pm ((PST))


Hello all! (Don't delete without reading. Yes, there is a test later.)

Firstly, the raw feeding list was established in 1999. It has evolved under a couple of different names, but remains with primarily the same list moderation team.

This primary objective of the list is to provide a place where people who
feed raw food or who want to feed raw can discuss this and closely associated issues.

This is not a list to discuss which kibble or home cooking method is best.
There are other email lists that can provide you with that sort of forum.
The forum here is specifically to discuss appropriate raw diets.

*******A learning environment

We aim at all times to maintain a learning environment.
Every so often someone joins the list with a different agenda.
We work hard in the background to do everything we can to keep discussion on topic at all times, and those who don't find the environment comfortable (about 0.5%), we encourage to join other more suitable email lists.

The most important thing is you join a group you are comfortable with.
We acknowledge the vast differences that exist between people and their learning styles, and as you'll appreciate we can't make everyone happy.

Now for a few of the easy rules:

*******PLEASE TRIM YOUR POSTS

This means when you are replying to an email DO NOT include the ENTIRE EMAIL in your reply.

You can include a SMALL portion of the email you are replying to. Try to stick to a couple of relevant lines.

Delete all headers and footers.

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This means when you are to sign your name at the bottom of every single mail you send to the list.

List members who continue to send unsigned posts after being warned risk having their mail deleted!!

**********CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE WHEN THE SUBJECT CHANGES
This is a high volume list. Changing subject lines allows people to delete those messages that are topics they have no interest in. IF you change subject lines properly then when responding to a post of the same subject you should not have to include ANY of the email you are responding too since those reading the thread will be able to follow it anyway.

********NO MONSTER SIGNATURES PLEASE!
Several lines are ok but nothing over 4 lines please.
(and please don't advertise in your signatures either)


*********NEW MEMBERS ARE MODERATED.
You will not get OFF of moderate until you prove you can trim your posts and change your subject lines. ALSO the moderators do not have time to trim your posts for you so if a post comes through moderate that is not trimmed it will be sent back to you to trim before it is sent to the list.

If you are currently off of moderate but stop changing subject lines or trimming posts for some reason you will be put back on moderate.

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Thanks so much.

List Moderators

Messages in this topic (13)
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10. am I feeding enough?
Posted by: "Ashley Myers" miragehairsalon@yahoo.com miragehairsalon
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:24 pm ((PST))

I'm still a bit concerned,It's been about 3 mos. on raw for my litte dogs. 16,11,5 lbs. My littlest one gets 3-4 oz the others get about 5 ozs. is that enough. I've not been feeling well so I can't clean up as well so I've switched to a frozen pattie that I got at the pet store (I know that's not perfection) but it's not kibble either. This is temporary until I get better. I don' want to cause them problems. They seem happy but I was just wondering.
Kitty (Mom to3 kids)


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11a. my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "Brandon Van Every" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 3:18 pm ((PST))

I have a 65 lb. lab-chow mix. He has irritation in his ears and anal
glands. The vet said it could be a food allergy. When I went looking
for "less allergic" dog food I got scared to death by all the recent
pet food recalls. So I thought I would try to feed my dog raw. I've
been experimenting with it and so far my results are not at all good.
He either doesn't know what to do, or doesn't care.

If I put a chicken carcass in front of him, he may chew off the wings
or the bony ends of the legs. He won't do anything "difficult." He
doesn't seem to have any idea how to rip apart a piece of meat.

If I give him a chicken leg inside, he will drag it off to somewhere
in the house and just leave it there, making a mess. If I give him a
chicken leg outside, he'll either drag it off and bury it, or just
leave it sitting on the lawn. He won't eat it.

If I give him chicken or duck organs raw, he won't eat them. They're
only bite sized so there's nothing difficult about them. He simply
doesn't like them raw. If I nuke them in the microwave briefly, he'll
gobble them up.

If I give him breast meat raw, in the same size pieces, he'll gobble
them up. But I stopped doing that when I realized that he was just
inhaling them. Also, I don't want to sit around cutting up raw breast
meat for him, I want him to do the work. My knives are dull and
cutting raw meat is a PITA.

Sometimes when I *hold* a chunk of chicken/duck breast or leg for him,
so that he can't just walk away and blow things off, he will eat it
like a good little carnivore. Full chewing, bone crunching, the whole
9 yards. I've used tongs to keep my fingers out of harm's way. But
other times when I hold it for him, he just doesn't care and won't
touch it.

Getting fed up with this, this evening I left him on the screen porch,
with the door closed so he couldn't wander off with anything. This is
going to be "the eating area." I don't want to have to hold/supervise
all the time as it's cold outside. I left him with a chicken breast
with the bone still in it. Came upstairs and started reading the
mailing list archives for advice. Read somewhere to give him 15
minutes and then give up. Did so. He didn't touch it.

I've noticed he's very easily distracted from eating raw food. If the
neighbors come home or some squirrel runs by or whatever, he'll get
interested in that and not the problem of eating. If he actually ever
does start eating, I shut up and don't give him any encouragement,
because my speech distracts him from the task. I do praise him when
he's actually chewing food that I'm holding for him however. If he's
chewing then he's focused.

If I *cook* the meat, get rid of the bones, and put it in front of
him, it disappears in 30 seconds. Any quantity.

I have an additional problem: it's difficult to starve him into
submission. We have cats. They have bowls of cat food. He has
always liked their cat food better than his dog food. It doesn't make
much sense, because I was feeding him the "high end" grainless high
protein stuff, but nevertheless cat food is proven to be better than
dog food. There's been a lot of scolding about this. When he's
eating his own kibble reguarly, i.e. when he's not hungry, he doesn't
steal cat food. But ever since I stopped giving him kibble and tried
feeding him raw, he steals the cat food quite often. For some reason
he thinks it's better food than the raw meat, bones, and organs I've
been trying to give him. Or if he doesn't think it's "better," it's
certainly more familiar.

Scolding about the cat food is a real chore. I'm in a house where the
cats were here first and have more rights than he does. That is to
say, Mom insists that the cat food is going to be in plain sight, all
the time, where the dog can get it. It's their house, they were here
first, they need access to their food, blah blah blah. Can't do
anything practical like remove the source of temptation; I can only
scold him. I even bought a baby monitor so I can catch him in the act
of raiding the cat food bowl! That sorta works; it's just a big
nuisance to be going through all this drama. So...

PLEASE TELL ME WHY MY DOG CLEARLY PREFERS COOKED FOOD. Do I need to
teach him how to deal with raw food? How?

One thing I haven't tried yet is feeding him beef instead of poultry.


Cheers,
Brandon Van Every


Messages in this topic (3)
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11b. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 3:36 pm ((PST))

I have a 65 lb. lab-chow mix. He has irritation in his ears and anal
glands. The vet said it could be a food allergy. When I went looking
for "less allergic" dog food I got scared to death by all the recent
pet food recalls. So I thought I would try to feed my dog raw. I've
been experimenting with it and so far my results are not at all good.
He either doesn't know what to do, or doesn't care.

#### well you are one smart guy! Raw is the ONLY way for a carnivore to
eat!

If I put a chicken carcass in front of him, he may chew off the wings
or the bony ends of the legs. He won't do anything "difficult." He
doesn't seem to have any idea how to rip apart a piece of meat.

### he'll learn, trust me. Been there, done that. Be patient...it doesn't
happen overnight or even in a few days ....you have fed him commercial food
for how many years?.. His instincts have been shut down for so long...give
him time and don't spoil or cajole!

If I give him a chicken leg inside, he will drag it off to somewhere
in the house and just leave it there, making a mess. If I give him a
chicken leg outside, he'll either drag it off and bury it, or just
leave it sitting on the lawn. He won't eat it.

### simply a training issue and YOU'RE the boss. Give him the item. When
he drags it away from the spot you have designated, a firm 'no' or a word of
your choosing, even a growl whilst you remove the item is all that is
required. Redirect him back to his spot, set it down, praise. This may
take multiple times but eventually, he'll get it.

If I give him chicken or duck organs raw, he won't eat them. They're
only bite sized so there's nothing difficult about them. He simply
doesn't like them raw. If I nuke them in the microwave briefly, he'll
gobble them up.

###you didn't say how long you have been feeding raw but it is WAY too soon
to offer ANY organs...I mean, you can, but you have to go slow and steady.
Organs are usually introduced after the initial first week or two of ONE
protein source has gone over well without too much digestive upset if any.

If I give him breast meat raw, in the same size pieces, he'll gobble
them up. But I stopped doing that when I realized that he was just
inhaling them. Also, I don't want to sit around cutting up raw breast
meat for him, I want him to do the work. My knives are dull and
cutting raw meat is a PITA.

#### your dog has you figured out perfectly! He is training you and it's
time you just toughen up Your dog is 65 pounds for heaven's sakes...with
teeth, right?.. Chop a whole chicken in half, slash the meat up a bit to let
him see how wonderful it is. If he doesn't eat it in 15 minutes, remove it,
offer 24 hours later, period! Repeat the next day, or two, until he caves.
Dogs will NOT starve themselves unless there was a health issue. He is just
manipulating you and you are doing him a huge disservice by not letting him
teach himself.

Sometimes when I *hold* a chunk of chicken/duck breast or leg for him,
so that he can't just walk away and blow things off, he will eat it
like a good little carnivore. Full chewing, bone crunching, the whole
9 yards. I've used tongs to keep my fingers out of harm's way. But
other times when I hold it for him, he just doesn't care and won't
touch it.

### so tough, let him go hungry. You're in charge, NOT him. No bite sized
anything...no microwaves EVER, for him, or for you...

Getting fed up with this, this evening I left him on the screen porch,
with the door closed so he couldn't wander off with anything. This is
going to be "the eating area." I don't want to have to hold/supervise
all the time as it's cold outside. I left him with a chicken breast
with the bone still in it. Came upstairs and started reading the
mailing list archives for advice. Read somewhere to give him 15
minutes and then give up. Did so. He didn't touch it.

#### I wrote above about training advice. You just aren't being consistent
or following through with actions that that instill respect in him.

I've noticed he's very easily distracted from eating raw food. If the
neighbors come home or some squirrel runs by or whatever, he'll get
interested in that and not the problem of eating. If he actually ever
does start eating, I shut up and don't give him any encouragement,
because my speech distracts him from the task. I do praise him when
he's actually chewing food that I'm holding for him however. If he's
chewing then he's focused.

#### my dog is like that too.... some dogs just aren't as passionate about
food as others. My 50 pound Border Collie only eats 3-5 times per week.

If I *cook* the meat, get rid of the bones, and put it in front of
him, it disappears in 30 seconds. Any quantity.

### once again, need I say more? Cooked meat is no better for him then
kibble. Please just follow our advice since we have all gone through this.
If you continue to let him play you this will be a huge pain in the butt!
If you're smart about it, it's so easy it's ridiculous!

I have an additional problem: it's difficult to starve him into
submission. We have cats. They have bowls of cat food. He has
always liked their cat food better than his dog food. It doesn't make
much sense, because I was feeding him the "high end" grainless high
protein stuff, but nevertheless cat food is proven to be better than
dog food. There's been a lot of scolding about this. When he's
eating his own kibble reguarly, i.e. when he's not hungry, he doesn't
steal cat food. But ever since I stopped giving him kibble and tried
feeding him raw, he steals the cat food quite often. For some reason
he thinks it's better food than the raw meat, bones, and organs I've
been trying to give him. Or if he doesn't think it's "better," it's
certainly more familiar.

#### this I can't help you with. You have to figure a way to put it in a
place for the cats where he cannot get it. Others with cats may chime in.
Of course, the cats should be eating raw as well but they're a bit trickier
I have heard.

Scolding about the cat food is a real chore. I'm in a house where the
cats were here first and have more rights than he does. That is to
say, Mom insists that the cat food is going to be in plain sight, all
the time, where the dog can get it. It's their house, they were here
first, they need access to their food, blah blah blah. Can't do
anything practical like remove the source of temptation; I can only
scold him. I even bought a baby monitor so I can catch him in the act
of raiding the cat food bowl! That sorta works; it's just a big
nuisance to be going through all this drama. So...

### it is a nuisance, you're right. Maybe you can calmly discuss things
with your Mom?

PLEASE TELL ME WHY MY DOG CLEARLY PREFERS COOKED FOOD. Do I need to
teach him how to deal with raw food? How?

#### probably because of the aroma. Maybe tale the half chicken...sear the
skin for a couple of seconds in the pan, then serve. After a week or two
you won't need to do this any longer.

Or else, don't even bother with the searing. With all you have said above,
you just need to follow through with a new routine to establish authority
and discipline so he quickly learns that if he doesn't eat, he doesn't eat
till the next day.

One thing I haven't tried yet is feeding him beef instead of poultry.

### please read the archives and files about properly introducing new food
sources. Baby steps. This is not a race, there is plenty of time! You
want the transition to be seamless and simple.

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (3)
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11c. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 4:13 pm ((PST))

>I have a 65 lb. lab-chow mix. He has irritation in his ears and anal glands. The vet said it >could be a food allergy. I would try to feed my dog raw. He either doesn't know what to >do, or doesn't care.

HI,Brandon. Raw feeding may not be a magical cure feeding,but I think that it is best feeding for dogs. Kibble is sprayed with flavoring fat to make the dog want to eat it,and raw meat is smelling different.Kibble is crunchy texture but raw is not. and taste-wise,kibble is strong flavor with additives andall other stuff but raw is tasting bland.

So,the dog sometimes have difficulty to eat raw food.

Oh,and shape of food is different too so,the dog may not recognise it is a food.

But important thing is that,do not try feeding everything so fast all at once.I read you already tried organ too but hold it off until yourdog can show interest and eat chicken or wahtever you choose to feed as first protin source very good by himself.You add new thing one at a time and stay on it till you see your dog getsdigest well enough and then,add another new thing.You do not need to hurry.

>If I put a chicken carcass in front of him, he may chew off the wings or the bony ends of the legs. He won't do anything "difficult."

What is exactly chicken curcas?? Is that whole chicken or whole chiken with meat trimmed and mostly bone??

You should feed whole chicken not trimmed at all. You know how much food is his food amount by calculating 2-3% in take? You get a whle bird and cut to portion and feed it.

If your dog did not show interest,you can do...

1;place it 15 min or so andtake it away if not touched andit repeats over andover and some point time,dog would eat it

2;quick sear (no need to get the bone out from whatever you want to sear.Searing means 10-20secds on skillet on high temp and just cook outside just enough to get the food smell good.Bone would not cook that fast.)and feed

3; Ribborn the meat;make slits in meat but still that piece attachedto bone(just enough for dog to smell inside the meat)

4;feed at room temp

5;put it in zip bag and put into warm water and bring food smell up

6;mix with Egg or tripe (but better after you know Egg or tripe is well digested and no prob feeding it)

My dog hates pork liver.But if it were mixed with Egg,she gobbles down.So problem solved.
My dog had hard time eating 1leg of frog,she ate some raw but could not eat 25% more of meat. So,I quick seared frog leg meat and shegobbles down. Problem solved.

One of those method should work for you and your dog. Just try not to hunch over and be relax,and do not hold meat for him. If he gets used to that feeding way,he would expects you to hold it anything everything for meal time. Let him figure out how to eat it by himself.

>If I give him a chicken leg inside, he will drag it off to somewhere in the house and just leave it there, making a mess.

I feed in kitchen. I placeshower curtain on floor and shecan move around wherever she wants to eat,anyways she wants to. Sometimes,she stand up and eats,sometimes drag it on shower curtain and tackle with it trying to get good bite out of food item i give,and sometimes,she is very relax to eat and lay like a super-man and lay on tum and eat slowly.
It gives her space and I just sit back and watch how she eats.

I then section off the kitchen and living room using puppy pen panel making it straight.This way,she cannot go to other place and mess carpet.

I know some people feed inside the crate too if not outside.

I think that supervising is somewhat important. If you do not know the dog's eating habit especially. One time,my dog was eating lamb neck.Usually no prob but this time,it stuck to her teeth and could not get it off by herself and she freakedout.So,My husband needed to come rescue her.She was fine after that.So,if you were out of sight like thissituation,I think it is not good.

>If I give him chicken or duck organs raw, he won't eat them.

He needs to get used to meat and bone first. Hold off organ now and later,introduce it slowly.For you,it mayu look just tiny bit of liver andwhy so difficult to eat but for dog,the texture is squashy and smell different and,I think it is whole different thing. Please give him atime to get usedf to raw anything to eat andthen,he would do ok for organ too someday.

> They're only bite sized so there's nothing difficult about them. He simply
doesn't like them raw. If I nuke them in the microwave briefly, he'll
gobble them up.

By nuking,it bring up the smell.That is why.If you cook meat say... Beef steak. Isn't he drool??? It is because the cooking with high heat bring good smell of food.If you feed food cold?? I am curious. I usualy feed food at room temp.

>Sometimes when I *hold* a chunk of chicken/duck breast or leg for him,
so that he can't just walk away and blow things off, he will eat it
like a good little carnivore.

No more holding,ok?and try not to give in for his patient match and do not try give something else.No good to swapping. Because he will be more hopeful if he strike on you,then,he gets what he wants.Please be tough.

>I have an additional problem: it's difficult to starve him into submission. We have cats. They have bowls of cat food.

I do not have a cat so,I maybe not good pointer but,is it possible for you to feed your cat somewhere your dog cannot hop up andget into their food?? Or maybe feed cat at certain times and not putting out the meal all day long if it were what it is like.

I am kind of thinking that catfood maybe mostly meat while dog food is mostly grain/carb.Andsince cat food is cooked,and meat,so,maybe your dog shows more interst in cooked meat;cat food? I have never seen a cat food with my eyes other than on tv commercial so,not sure what it is like but seems like commercials show nice piece of meat in a can so,I guessed maybe mostly meat for them.

>PLEASE TELL ME WHY MY DOG CLEARLY PREFERS COOKED FOOD.
'cause it smells more and better.

> Do I need to teach him how to deal with raw food? How?

You may need to try different method to entice your dog to eat raw food but I do not think you need to teach him to eat.He would figure out.You just be patient and be relax. That isall need.

>One thing I haven't tried yet is feeding him beef instead of poultry.

If your dog is not getting used to raw food,try stick to chicken til he gets it;it is a food and tasty.

yassy


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12. Rabbit,Buffalo source
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 3:39 pm ((PST))

Hi, after switching my dog to raw,I wasrequesting Buffalo products by e-mail to consumer affair department of local grocerystore saying that Ukrop(their rival store) already has it (although it is just ground Bffalo and not hunk of meat there) and told them in mail how good for human;lower fat than beef bluh bluh bluh and put one buffalo source link for thewm to read about it and see products etc.

It was months ago.

When I went grocery store yesterday,I saw the Buffalo steak and Ground Buffalo in shelf!!
I guess either what I wrote was heard at management leveled people or many people requested or what,but I was surprised and was happy. If you live in VA or MD,you may find Buffalo item (so far,I just saw steak cut) at Giant.

Along with it, I saw cut-up rabbit(it looked about fist-sized for each cut) too. It was 2 dollars per pound.

Since when I made request product items in list,I have put rabbit too,it may be why I see it now?lol

Too bad,my dog hates it..

I listed couple of other things in that mail such as pheasant but so far,not seeing in shelf. Maybe somedays if many people requested?

Sometimes,it is nice to tell them what you like to see in shelf.

I remember someone was asking about source of rabbit this week but,if you go to grocery store of Giant,you may find it locally.

This morning, I fed Frog leg. 2 legs weighed around 3oz so,I thought it maybe too much of new thing so,I fed just single leg;1.5oz.

palette ate it raw about 75% but after only some of meat left and just put into mouth andspit out.She still sniff it and shows interests but not eating it. So,I quickly seared outside and she ate it in gusto.Andshe was looking for more...

I am going to change one time feeding of chicken feet along with fish to 1 frog leg with fish.
I have been feeding chicken feet and fish 2 meals per week but one of the time will be with frog leg. She did not show any discomfort for poo-wise andnot doing any poo after the meal so,I think I do not have to worry about diarrhea at all.

yassy


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13. Re: Raw Book list
Posted by: "Sarah Meyers" s2meyers@yahoo.com s2meyers
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:38 pm ((PST))

Hi everyone-
I am new to all this and while I have spent some time looking around at websites and in the archives in this list, are there any good books out there on raw feeding? I have looked at some books but many of these seem to also encourage the use of grains and/or fruits and veggies. Maybe some of these have useful info, but I would love to hear your opinions on a booklist for rawfeeders. Are there any prey model diet books out there?

Thanks for the help!!
Sarah Meyers


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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12338

There are 10 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. puppy chocking on food
From: vickies_28
1b. Re: puppy chocking on food
From: Giselle
1c. Re: puppy chocking on food
From: katkellm
1d. Re: puppy chocking on food
From: Chia

2. Re: Calcium - advice needed
From: noneedman@aol.com

3a. Bone/ Meat ratio...Archives?
From: jennifer_hell
3b. Re: Bone/ Meat ratio...Archives?
From: katkellm

4a. Re: Heartworm tx and raw
From: Cdandp2@aol.com
4b. Heartworm tx and raw
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

5. Switch
From: jetblst2002


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. puppy chocking on food
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 10:16 pm ((PST))

Hello All
my puppy has been on raw for 4 months, and has been pretty good with
chewing his food properly, not swallowing big pieces, etc. But what
happened the other day is really concerning. I was away and my husband
was feeding him what I left for him. Turkey necks. This has been given
to the dog numerous times before, small necks, large necks, no problem.
Chewed them up and all wet fine. But his time he appeared to be
cheweing, then looked like he finished since nothing was sticking out
of his mouth, and then he sat back and statring crying, loud for like 3
min. As if something was really badly hurting him. My hubby thinks that
he had trouble breathing and was choking on a piece of his food. The
situation resolved itself but now I am so scared of giving him turkey
necks and any other food that it not chopped up in small pieces.
Anybody can advise on what it might have been? Any advice?
Vickie

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: puppy chocking on food
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:42 am ((PST))

Hi, Vickie!
More info, please!

How old is your pup?

What breed?

What size/how much does he weigh?

Exactly what do you feed, besides turkey necks?

In general, turkey necks aren't a great feed, too bony, and larger breeds
and enthusiastic gulpers can get into trouble by trying to swallow them
whole, or swallow too big chunks.

I'm surmising on not a lot of info, but since you said he is a pup; he is
growing, so he may just have reached a size where the necks are problematic,
or reached an age where he is experimenting with just how big of a hunk he
can actually swallow.

At the least you need to get more meat, more variety of protein and organs
and bigger parts into his diet, if all you are feeding is turkey, or similar
bony parts.

A species appropriate whole prey model diet, which this list supports and
promotes, consists of either whole prey, (like undressed rabbits or
chickens) either cut up into parts or entire, or "FrankenPrey", (such as
pork roasts or 1/2 or 1/4 turkey parts) which consists of feeding a variety
of animal parts over time, including as much variety of protein and organs
as is possible.

The general 'rule of thumb' is to aim for about 80% meat - which consists of
muscle, fat, skin and connective tissue, including heart, gizzards and
tongue.
10% organ - 3-5% liver and 5-7% 'other', like kidney, spleen, thymus,
pancreas, etc.
10% EDIBLE bone - the softer bones of smaller animals - like chicken,
turkey, pork, lamb, rabbit, goat, fish, etc. Bones from venison or other
large herbivores, especially beef cattle, are very much harder and mostly
aren't consumable by the majority of dogs, and can harm teeth.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 1, 2007 11:37 PM, vickies_28 <vickies_28@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello All
> my puppy has been on raw for 4 months, and has been pretty good with
> chewing his food properly, not swallowing big pieces, etc.
>


> <snip>
> Anybody can advise on what it might have been? Any advice?
> Vickie
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: puppy chocking on food
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:50 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...> wrote:
Turkey necks. This has been given
> to the dog numerous times before, small necks, large necks, no problem.

Hi Vickie,
The way to minimize the risk of a choking incident is to feed big
parts, big being compared to the size of the dog. So, to say your
puppy ate little sized necks with no problems before is akin to saying
that up til now you have been lucky. Real tom turkey necks are almost
a foot long and, aside from being bony, are probably an ok food for
most dogs. The turkey necks that come from the stores, at least the
ones that i have seen, are cut into smaller sections and just
encourage a dog to swallow whole. I think some of it has to do with
their skinny shape. Anyway, the whole think is fixable, not by
feeding cut up smaller pieces, but by feeding things bigger than
turkey necks or at least feeding whole tom turkey necks. I consider
tom turkey necks another of the "know thy dog" areas of raw feeding. I
believe grocery store turkey necks are best to be avoided. JMO, KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: puppy chocking on food
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 6:24 am ((PST))

Hello All
my puppy has been on raw for 4 months, and has been pretty good with
chewing his food properly, not swallowing big pieces, etc. But what
happened the other day is really concerning. I was away and my husband
was feeding him what I left for him. Turkey necks. This has been given
to the dog numerous times before, small necks, large necks, no problem.
Chewed them up and all wet fine. But his time he appeared to be
cheweing, then looked like he finished since nothing was sticking out
of his mouth, and then he sat back and statring crying, loud for like 3
min. As if something was really badly hurting him. My hubby thinks that
he had trouble breathing and was choking on a piece of his food. The
situation resolved itself but now I am so scared of giving him turkey
necks and any other food that it not chopped up in small pieces.
Anybody can advise on what it might have been? Any advice?
Vickie

#### I am unsure as to how large your puppy is but the answer is as simple
as feeding as HUGE as possible. Take a half a chicken or a huge chunk of
turkey and let your pup have at it!

Feeding bits and pieces of body parts isn't always taboo, but that is more
for advanced or experienced dogs. I know my dog so well and if I get a
great deal on a case of chicken backs/necks, I'll feed these with a chicken
quarter as well.

I much prefer giving my boy whole chickens but bits and pieces is so
affordable at times.

However, for a hungry, growing pup with limited experience, bits and pieces
of feeding is not always a great idea, even if went fine many times before.
Even with older dogs, it's that old mantra 'know thy dog'. Wisdom comes
with time and your pup will be a pro before long.

Feed huge...take it away once done or you feel it is enough and give the
rest of it at the next feeding. Cutting things up small is an invitation to
choking/gulping NOT the other way around! You need your pup to learn how to
eat properly and babying him along is not the way.

Chie & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2. Re: Calcium - advice needed
Posted by: "noneedman@aol.com" noneedman@aol.com noneedman
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 1:52 am ((PST))

Hi,

I am new to the group and have been lurking for a while now. I have a
problem that I need a quick answer to. I have a tribe of ten raw fed dogs of
various size. My toy dogs just whelped, first raw litter, and one seized up
yesterday due to calcium deficiency. Naturally my vet took this as a time to
tell me again that my dogs need a balanced dog food diet, I do not believe this,
but I do not want this to happen again. I am bottle feeding now while she
recoups, but any help on how to keep this from happening will be great. Oh
yeah,. right now I feed basically grocery store meat with a tsp. of kelp
vegetarian blend supplement. No one showed any problems up until now, and
pregnancy went fine, two still born during whelping, now I am wondering if it had to
do with the calcium. Thanks in advance for any help.

Jessica C.

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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Bone/ Meat ratio...Archives?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 1:52 am ((PST))

I think I read estimates somewhere of the bone/ meat ratio of
different prey animals? Can someone point me there?
I don't know how to find it (which terms to search for).

Thank you!

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Bone/ Meat ratio...Archives?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:50 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
>> I think I read estimates somewhere of the bone/ meat ratio of
> different prey animals? Can someone point me there?
> I don't know how to find it (which terms to search for).
>

Hi Jennifer,
Is this what you were looking for?

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/55017

KathyM

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Heartworm tx and raw
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:50 am ((PST))

My rescue cocker was diagnosed with moderate/high heartworm (could see them
on x-rays and, of course, antigen positive) almost 2 years ago. I decided
not to put him through the conventional treatment (given his age and trauma
history) but DID switch him to raw (he suffered enormously from apparent
allergies, horribly itchy and red skin, chewing at himself, sniffly with drippy nose
and runny eyes, smelly ears, coughing, etc..

I thought alot of that was secondary to the heartworms compromising his
immune system. But after almost 9 months on raw, the little guy is transofmred.
He still suffers from itchies from time to time (starting to see relation to
when they "mop" (truthfully "smear") the hallway/lobby floors (larger
apartment building) with nostril-stinging chemicals...sigh....

But overall the itching is tremendously improved, he sleeps better, no more
sneezing and wheezing, runny nose and eyes improved, ears significantly
improved.

I don't know about the heartworms. I'm assuming they're still in there
doing their thing (sigh), but for now my guy seems to be enjoying his days (which
was my goal)...chasing his tennis ball every morning...sniffing around the
bushes and his dog friends at the park....and overall just being the sweet
blessing that he is.

The only concern I'd have about raw if he's doing conventional would be that
he not get too worked up chewing and ripping/shredding the food. It's
critical to keep them really quiet/calm during those treatment months between
injections.

Best to you and yours.
Carol

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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Heartworm tx and raw
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:50 am ((PST))

p.s. From Carol...

Regarding getting worked up while eating raw, etc....see the post about
"panting" later in this digest.

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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5. Switch
Posted by: "jetblst2002" bosboy101@mac.com jetblst2002
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:50 am ((PST))

I have made the switch as of last night all 8 dogs are now on raw. The
puppy coming next week will also be put right onto raw. All dogs but
one has taken to it rally well. The one that is not taking to it likes
the necks but nothing else. I hope that will change in time as I have
no though of going back. So here's to a new start.

I want to thank everyone that has helped me with my questions leading
up to this very important switch. As I go forward I hope the nerves
settle and it becomes 2nd nature to me. Again thanks for all the great
information.

Travis
Muddy River

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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