[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12127

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: First week feeding raw
From: Tina Berry
1b. Re: First week feeding raw
From: Michael Moore

2a. Re: where to feed/towels (was Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
From: Laurie Swanson
2b. Re: where to feed/towels (was Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
From: Roseann

3a. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
From: Tina Berry
3b. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
From: girlndocs
3c. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
From: Bumble1994@aol.com
3d. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
From: Jamie Dolan

4a. A report
From: Tracy Meal
4b. Re: A report
From: costrowski75

5.1. Re: pork country ribs (was Fasting)
From: Laurie Swanson
5.2. Re: pork country ribs (was Fasting)
From: katkellm

6a. Re: Pork neck whole?
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

7a. Re: Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
From: girlndocs

8a. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
From: temy1102
8b. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
From: Giselle

10a. Re: there's no denying the evidence! I t really works!!
From: Giselle

11a. Re: Wolf goes fishing for salmon
From: Giselle
11b. Re: Wolf goes fishing for salmon
From: PK Shader

12a. First Week
From: rlayt
12b. Re: First Week
From: costrowski75

13. {Raw Feeding} An idea on how to get meat - brainstorming?
From: Brandi Bryant

14.1. Re: Fasting
From: costrowski75

15a. Re: Urinary Question
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. Re: First week feeding raw
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

"Yes, the bile vomit is because he is expecting morning breakfast. It will
go away in a few days when he realizes it isn't coming. I prefer to feed
adult dogs once a day since it gives you the opportunity to give them big
things like whole chicken."

I was feeding mine around the same time every evening; Ruger was the only
one who would vomit bile; how I feed them still in the evening, but it
varies about 4 hours at different times and no one has vomited bile since.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (9)
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1b. Re: First week feeding raw
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

>>I've found myself, more than once, taking a quarter of a chicken from his mouth and
having to hold it so he will rip it apart. I don't know how to get
him to lay down and use his paws. Any suggestions? ? <<

Tracy -- not all dogs lay down *or* use their paws. No reason your Lab has to! And truly, there is no need for you to hold a chicken quarter so he will rip it apart! If he's swallowing huge pieces, give him even larger pieces! Larger than his head is a good "rule of thumb."

>>The other problem is that he had runny stools for about 3 days then
solid for 2 days (which I was very pleased to see). But now today
its runny again. We haven't changed anything since begining so I'm
not sure what the problem is or if I should be concerned.<<

Some dogs' systems take a little while to "adjust" to rawfeeding. This is not a big issue. If it continues, try removing the skin from the chicken. Often helps.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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2a. Re: where to feed/towels (was Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi Roseann,

How about a washable blanket or towel on the floor or even on top of
her big pillow? I do a towel on top of the living room carpet. Very
easy to train them to keep their food on a surface like that, too.
Just put the food down on the towel and when they pick it up and take
it off the towel, casually put it back on. Use a word cue if you
want. They learn pretty quick.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Roseann <rgabrys@...> wrote:
I thought about bringing her big
> pillow into the kitchen in case she wanted to lay down and spend some
> time with her bones (so far only chicken) but I can't imagine how I'd
> clean the pillow up afterwards.

Messages in this topic (10)
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2b. Re: where to feed/towels (was Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Roseann" rgabrys@wyan.org gaiabreeze
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 7:51 pm ((PDT))

Laurie Swanson wrote:
> How about a washable blanket or towel on the floor or even on top of
> her big pillow? I do a towel on top of the living room carpet. Very
> easy to train them to keep their food on a surface like that, too.
> Just put the food down on the towel and when they pick it up and take
> it off the towel, casually put it back on. Use a word cue if you
> want. They learn pretty quick.

Thanks Laurie, that would probably work well since she was 'trained' to
eat her biscuits on the pillow. So far, she just sort of stands with
her head down so that the meat doesn't slide down her throat but falls
out of her mouth onto the floor if she loses a grip on it. Then she
just picks it up and goes back to working it again. The biggest
positive I've already noticed from the change in diet is her teeth are
becoming whiter. She only licked her very premium nuggets of
unmentionables and never chewed and even though she's only about two,
her teeth looked like they belonged to a much older dog. The other
apparent change is how shiny her coat is getting. Not to boast but she
literally has been stopping traffic when we're out walking when folks
pull over to comment on how beautiful she is.
Roseann and Mecka, the high-profile Great Dane

Messages in this topic (10)
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3a. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

I may have missed this, but why are we crushing bones?
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (8)
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3b. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 4:15 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jen,

> I've found that my dog with teeth problems and 2 of my cats do best
> with wings especially but can/will only eat them if they are crushed.
> This is way too much work for me

I'm weaning my cats to raw and so far they're still intimdated by a
whole wing but they'll tackle one with the bone whacked, so I sympathize.

I put them in a sturdy Ziploc, lay it on my floor and whack the
bejeezus out of them with a regular old hammer.

They won't slide around if you kind of pin them in the corner of the
bag so they have nowhere to go. Watch your fingers -- and be careful
you don't burst the bag and send a smashed chicken wing shooting
across your floor :)

Kristin

Messages in this topic (8)
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3c. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 4:15 pm ((PDT))

I probably didn't do nearly the smashing job that you've been doing--I
whacked it a couple of times with a hammer while it was between 2 folds of cloth
in the kitchen sink! After the second time I offered bone a little smashed up,
my cats figured out how to do it themselves. Give them the chance! (And
remember, cat = patience.)

Lynda

In a message dated 10/5/2007 4:22:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
"never_connected" writes:

I've found that my dog with teeth problems and 2 of my cats do best
with wings especially but can/will only eat them if they are crushed.
This is way too much work for me as I have to go outside and wack and
hack the thing up on the cement

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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3d. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 4:16 pm ((PDT))

> thanks.. already tried running them over but haven't tried it this way..

I was just trying to infect a bit of humor since you said that you
already tried running them over. Sorry my sence of humor isn't always
easy to understand. But seriously I would try it with some boards,
and I bet it will work.

> Any particular mallet? I was using a rubber one from Home Depot and
> the thing sucks. I was going to just buy a metal one. lol.

Yes a metal one.

http://www.amazon.com/OXO-Good-Grips-26191-Tenderizer/dp/B00004OCJJ/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-4462416-2550250?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1191625207&sr=8-1

or

http://www.amazon.com/Tenderizer-mallet-aluminum-hardwood-handle/dp/B000UBEE06/ref=sr_1_16/103-4462416-2550250?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1191625207&sr=8-16

Or maybe you just need to try and give them some more time to chew up the bones?

Good Luck

Jamie

Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. A report
Posted by: "Tracy Meal" hiddenpoetinme1@yahoo.com hiddenpoetinme1
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

HI Carol,

You wrote:
I have a question about egg shells. I see that people feed them and
assume they are for calcium? I split one of my duck eggs among the
four of them usually (the duck eggs weigh about 3 oz each), how would
I feed the shells too? I can save shells from when I cook too. Can
someone give me a "heads up" about feeding egg shells? Why? How? How
much? sort of thing?

I have 2 Rotties that like raw eggs alot. I just break the egg in half and put the shell and egg over top of the ground or chunked meat for my older dog. (They only get chunks or ground with 1 egg, once a week) The pup likes to play with the shell, so I break it into smaller pieces so she can lick it up with the egg.

Tracy

Tracy

---------------------------------
Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.

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Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: A report
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

Carol Dunster <cedunster@...> wrote:
>> I'll have to pick up something with bones soon though. Hard to do
when
> you don't shop much. On the other hand, they haven't been getting
> bones and they've survived quite a few years already, a couple of
> weeks won't kill them, I'm sure.
*****
They've been getting kibble which is fully loaded with calcium.
That they've survived for a few years on kibble is good enough.

> I have a question about egg shells. I see that people feed them and
> assume they are for calcium?
*****
You can use egg shells for calcium if there's no other source of it
in the diet but feeding bone-in body parts pretty much eliminates
that need, don't you think?

In order for egg shells to be an effective source of calcium, they
must be ground up and added to the meat as a supplement. Otherwise
most of the shell will pass right on through and you will see flecks
of it in the stool. People mostly feed egg shell because they are
part of the egg. Whether the dog eats them is up to the dog.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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5.1. Re: pork country ribs (was Fasting)
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

Roseann and all,

I'm not that comfortable with pork country ribs--I thought I'd double-
check as to what you all think. I usually recommend against them due
to the bone shape/size/sharp, sawn, pokey edges/points. I've heard
others recommend against them. But I think there also was a post or
two about people whose dogs do fine with them.

You can always cut the bone out, of course.

Is there any consensus?

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Roseann <rgabrys@...> wrote:
I did grab a pack of pork country ribs off of the
> super sale shelf. Personally, I don't eat mammals so I'm not sure
what
> constitutes "country ribs" but there doesn't seem to be much bone
in the
> package.

Messages in this topic (43)
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5.2. Re: pork country ribs (was Fasting)
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 4:16 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
Is there any consensus?

Hi Laurie,
I bet there is no consensus. I think that its probably a "know thy
dog" thing, and if it is, there probably shouldn't be one. I
personally feed them but only if they are longer than my hand. There
is one store here that sells them really short-for a largish type dog,
and i think they are in invitation for a dog to swallow whole-
actually happened to me once, but my aussie got it to go down on her
own-and that's when the size rule came to be. One store sells them
where they are really long with lots of meat, so i guess its also a
"know thy pork country ribs" kinda thing. As far as the pointy bone
edges, this is just how i see it, when your dog chews any kind of a
bone it can naturally end up with of sharp edges and the dog
digests it just fine. I don't have a rebuttal for the concern that
the heat of the saw partially cooks the bone - i don't even know if
that is true. My dogs like them, and i feed them. KathyM

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6a. Re: Pork neck whole?
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:28 pm ((PDT))

Andrea,

I think it was a whole heart or a liver that he originally choked on. He
chews it from one end to the other to get it soft and enlongated and stringy
since he doesn't appear to be able to tear (no front teeth) and then he kind of
slurps it down like a long glob (sorry for the graphics). But one part was
still really thick and the whole thing just got jambed up in there and it
looked like he couldn't breathe.

Now a question about that "one meal" comment regarding the roasts?? My guy
is 25 lbs and eats about a half lb of meat per day. The roasts are typically
over 3 lbs each right? ??

thanks for responding,
Carol

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7a. Re: Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 4:15 pm ((PDT))

Hi Meredith,

> yes, I'm saying she carries the WHOLE thigh around the house....=]

Zoe eats her meals in her crate (so I can feed the cats at the same
time) but for impromptu snacks I just want her to stay in the laundry
room with them.

I take the food to the laundry room and of course she follows me
eagerly. I give it to her in there and if she tries to walk out with
it I gently take it away from her, point in the laundry room, say "eat
in THERE" and lead her back in with it.

She's to the point now where I can just point and say "eat in THERE"
and she'll turn around and go back in.

They learn tout de suite where food is concerned.

Kristin

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8a. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 4:20 pm ((PDT))

my chewers got lots of pig feet and stuff like that in their crates or
in the backyard. indoors, i just went through all different kinds of
rubber chewy toys until i discovered what they like best. some like
the flossy action of rope toys while others liked to disassemble them.
on the whole though, rubber toys were pretty great especially the
flavored kinds. my favorite is the mint as it's not as weird as
having a rubber bone sitting around the smells like chicken. but i
had a mini dachshund who would determinedly nibble on HUGE hard rubber
toys until the corners crumbled, so it depends on your dog's chewing
styles.

i also use bully sticks and moo tubes and depending on the dog they
can last up to 1/2 hour. maybe you could keep a canister of bully
sticks around the house and when they start chewing on a table leg or
something, give them one.

hope that helps!

-tammy

Messages in this topic (6)
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8b. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 8:10 pm ((PDT))

Kathie Middlemiss <geekgirl717@...> wrote:
>
> Well, I don't know if my pups are just mouthier than others or
what.
>
> They've been gnawing the heck out of a pork shoulder for a few
meals and
> still come in looking for something else to chew.
*****
Do you mean real pups as in youngsters or are you using the term
affectionately? IMO pre-teething pups can mess with bones that
would be questionable for dogs with permanent teeth. Big bones with
scraps of meat left on (beef knuckles come to mind, as do pork neck
bones and even femurs) might be baby-sitter material.

If you mean adult dogs, continue letting them gnaw the heck out of
pork shoulders. I think many people rely on bully sticks; they're
pricey but I guess compared to dental work they aren't so bad. I
think knuckles are iffy and femurs (soup bones) are definitely out.

My BC is happy with lamb shanks, and meaty pork arm and blade
bones. My heathen golden bitch prefers to chew recreationally on
her big Kong and the boys seem content with the bones they get in
the body parts I feed them.

Chris O

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9a. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 5:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Meredith!
YQW!
TC
Giselle

> That was very helpful...Thank you so much!!

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10a. Re: there's no denying the evidence! I t really works!!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 5:49 pm ((PDT))

Yup. Yup!

See, it DOES matter what you feed your dogs, and the form you feed it! ^_^

I hope you made your husband smell your dog's nasty breath, too! ; )

How he could not object to the reek and appearance of cr*p-in-a-can
instead of to nice clean fresh frozen raw meat and bones?

Marisa, if there's a next time for hubby having to feed your dogs, you
could plan raw meals and package them in a way that would make it easy
for him, so he wouldn't have the touch the 'icky stuff'.

1) Bag meals individually for each dog. This way, he only has to dump
the portion out in front of the dog, not touch it.

2) Label them with each dog's name, date and time of day to feed.

3) Give him the option to feed frozen, partially frozen, meatless or
ground meals.

4) If you don't already, teach the dogs to eat on an old towel or
blanket. your hubby can put these down in their eating places, then
fold them up for later use. No 'dog dishes' or clean up!

5) Don't plan to have him feed organs or other items he might find
'icky'. A few days, or even a few weeks, of not eating organs won't
harm the dogs.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi, I'm Marisa, I happily raw feed my 3 dogs since the 2nd of may
> 2007, up to now, I've had no problems and the dogs are always looking
> forward to their daily feed.
> The other day I had to go in hospital for 3 days, and since I'm the
> one who takes care of my dogs and feed them, my husband found excuses
> of not being able to touch and select their daily portion
<snip>
> Any way, to make things brief, I went out and bought just the
amount of canned food for 3 days!!
<snip>
I noticed he had a heavy breath that I'd
> never smelt before, so I picked up the Pinscher and noticed the same
> thing. Their teeth, in only 3 days, were covered in a soft orange
> substance!!! Is it possible in such a short time??'
> I soon put things right with giving them their raw food to eat and
I also helped them with an old tooth brush and just clean water.
> Regards MARISA

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11a. Re: Wolf goes fishing for salmon
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 6:42 pm ((PDT))

I found this article, and a couple points it makes interesting.

It points to the diversity in regional subspecies of the Grey Wolf,
and also the diversity in their regional, as well as seasonal, diets.

Island Wolves - a species apart
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/animals/features/257feature1.shtml
this is from a 2002 article by Matt Jackson
"Earlier in the summer, the sailboat Nawalak and its crew of
naturalists, biologists, and First Nations researchers had, by some
fluke, stumbled onto this magical inlet. Tired after a day of
bushwhacking and following game trails in search of wolf scat, they
were suddenly jolted awake when an adult wolf and five pups appeared
along the shore less than 30 metres from the boat. They exchanged wolf
calls with the pack, then went ashore the next day for a closer look
at the estuary. Once on shore, they found well-defined wolf trails
criss-crossing the tidal flats, dozens of headless salmon along the
riverbanks, and a plethora of other wolf signs.

Oh, and the scat--endless bags of it, all to be carefully labeled,
preserved, and shipped down to the Conservation Genetics Laboratory at
California's UCLA. Once at the lab, a team of geneticists apply
cutting-edge technology to examine the mitochondrial DNA sequences in
live cells pulled from the waste. Scat has only a few stray cells,
scraped from the intestinal tracts of wolves as they digest their
food. Fortunately, this new technology permits scientists to pull DNA
from the scat and has now provided convincing evidence that coastal
wolves have unique genetic characteristics not found in their
continental brethren.

This is how it works. From the wolf research that has been conducted
to date, roughly 35 different DNA haplotypes have been identified in
global wolf populations. A haplotype is best described as a miniature
recipe, and hundreds of these miniature recipes (or sequences) exist
on even a small section of the DNA strand. To distinguish variation,
geneticists are looking for haplotypes that differ from those found in
sequences from other wolf populations. Of course, some haplotypes are
shared by all populations of a species, while others exist in only a
few different populations. Finally, there are those haplotypes that
are endemic or rare and can be found only in specific populations.

"What's exciting about coastal wolves is that we've found four or five
haplotypes that haven't been identified anywhere else on the
continent," says Darimont. This doesn't mean that these haplotypes
don't exist in other wolf populations or that all coastal wolves share
these same genetic characteristics; however, it is entirely possible
that wolves living on the West Coast are unique and have been evolving
in isolation over several millennia.

This is what scientists refer to as evolutionary potential--subtle
differences in the genes that may allow wolves on the coast to
continue evolving along different lines than wolves living elsewhere.
In other words, wolves evolving in relative isolation on the coast may
have the genetic tools to better adapt to changing conditions over
time--conditions specific to the West Coast rainforest."

AND

"Another behavourial difference on the West Coast, apparently relates
to the diet of coastal wolves. While it's true that Sitka black-tailed
deer are their staple food source year-round, it has been thought for
some time that salmon are also important to their diet. How important,
nobody knew. Recent evidence pulled from scat samples suggests that at
least 25 percent of a wolf's diet in autumn is protein-rich salmon,
though more recent field observations suggest that certain packs may
depend even more heavily on salmon for food. "We watched three packs
this fall sitting on salmon rivers day and night, eating salmon almost
exclusively," says Ian McAllister of the Rainforest Conservation
Society. "Their reliance on salmon is obviously far greater than we
originally ever would have thought."

In contrast, the seemingly unusually restricted diet of the Isle
Royale wolves in Lake Superior in Michigan;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_and_Moose_on_Isle_Royale

I didn't find much about salmon poisoning in the wolves in the Pacific
NW coast;
http://web.uvic.ca/~reimlab/wolfsalm.pdf

"The pooled mean capture rate was 21.5 salmon/h and mean efficiency
(successes/attempt) was 39.4%. In most cases, wolves consumed
only heads of salmon, perhaps for nutritional reasons or parasite
avoidance. Preying on salmon may be adaptive, as this nutritious and
spatially constrained resource imposes lower risks of injury compared
with hunting large mammals. We infer from capture rates and
efficiencies, as well as stereotypical hunting and feeding behaviour,
a history of salmon predation by wolves and, as a corollary, a broad
distribution of this foraging ecology where wolves and salmon still
co-exist."

TC
Giselle

> Pictures of a wolf engaged in fishing for salmon in Alaska were
published today in the Seattle
> Times. Although rarely seen before, the wolf proved quite adept.
>
> Article:
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003923837_wolf04.html
>
> Pictures:
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/zoom/html/2003923838.html
>
> So what's the deal about Pacific salmon being dangerous to dogs when
fed raw?
>
> --Basil Bourque

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11b. Re: Wolf goes fishing for salmon
Posted by: "PK Shader" Forloveofdogs@gmail.com forloveofdogs
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 7:50 pm ((PDT))

Nice work Giselle. Very interesting

PK

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/SATZ_Main/

Two Sided Communication, Cooperation, Respect

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12a. First Week
Posted by: "rlayt" rlayt@bresnan.net rlayt
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 7:48 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the support and information everybody! Things are going
great with the last couple of days having the dogs strictly on raw
chicken. I found a deal on Tyson antibiotic and hormone free chicken
so I've been chopping away! The only problem isn't a problem yet. The
problem will be that the Tyson chicken has no giblets, feet, neck etc.
So in a couple of weeks I will need to supplement with organs of some
kind. Will chicken gizzards be enough or does anyone have
recommendations on other animal organs?

Robin L.
Helena MT

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12b. Re: First Week
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 9:07 pm ((PDT))

"rlayt" <rlayt@...> wrote:
The
> problem will be that the Tyson chicken has no giblets, feet, neck
etc.
> So in a couple of weeks I will need to supplement with organs of
some
> kind.
*****
That means you have several weeks to get this apparent shortage
straightened out. Plenty of time, actually. You have longer than
several weeks if it comes to that. Some on this list suggest skipping
organs for at least a month. While I think this is altogether
excessive avoidance, it certainly indicates time is not of the essence.

Will chicken gizzards be enough or does anyone have
> recommendations on other animal organs?
*****
Gizzards are muscles, not organs. Heart is fed an muscle meat, though
it often takes more getting used to than gizzards do. The organ you
would be looking for is liver. Liver you can buy separately; hearts
and gizzards are usually available together in a jumble, with gizzards
ruling the mix.

Necks are no loss, frankly; feet if you want to feed them are
typically available from ethnic grocery stores and, lacking that
resource, in cases from meat wholesalers. You might find simply
skipping the feet to be the most efficient choice for the nonce.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. {Raw Feeding} An idea on how to get meat - brainstorming?
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 7:51 pm ((PDT))

I just come up with this idea, what if you made poster/flyers - like the
ones that you see the people wanting to sell something and they have their
name and number down at the bottome of the page on littl cut outs! Could
you do something like that but say that you're looking for meat and that
you'll come and pick it up?

Something like at the groomers and vets offices?

Good/Bad -----thoughts??

Thanks

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14.1. Re: Fasting
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 8:28 pm ((PDT))

Roseann <rgabrys@...> wrote:
I
> have no doubt they do "throw it away" rather than shipping it back
to
> anywhere.
*****
What they have, corporately, is a contract with a renderer that
takes the meat to Dogfood Land. Mom and Pop shops are more likely
to work a deal with you; the meat dudes with the chain stores have
little to say in the matter. Best you're likely to get from them
are "day of" markdowns. I have gotten some pretty fine "day of"
markdowns by knowing when to hit what storees.

I'm not sure what
> constitutes "country ribs" but there doesn't seem to be much bone
in the
> package.
*****
Country ribs are not ribs but rather are slices of a shoulder blade
roast. For some dogs these thin bone slices are just the right
shape for stupid eating. I think of them as swords for swallowing
and do not feed them to my retrievers. Others may feel more
comfortable with them. IMO there are enough other pork parts to
keep my dogs occupied. The meat of course is dandy.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (43)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15a. Re: Urinary Question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 8:52 pm ((PDT))

"Kevin Brown" <jerseykev@...> wrote:
>
> My younger OEM pup - is not actually on raw yet. I was waiting
till
> 17 weeks old
*****
And the only reason you switched your older pup at that age is you
hadn't known to do it earlier. I suggest the sooner you get a pup
on raw, the most variety you can introduce will less "problems".
There is nothing to be gained by waiting.

> I got her on cranberry bladder stuff, just to be on the safe side.
>
> any comments, advise or suggestions would be appreciated.
*****
Christie Keith wrote an article about urinary tract infections for
the San Francisco Chronicle webpage SFGate. I suggest you read it
pronto. The short of it: Don't guess. Get it checked out.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?
f=/g/a/2007/09/05/petscol.DTL

Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12126

There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: First week feeding raw
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: First week feeding raw
From: caroline gebbie
1c. Re: First week feeding raw
From: Andrea

2a. Re: A report
From: Andrea
2b. Re: A report
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
From: Felicia Kost
3b. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
From: sarahfalkner
3c. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
From: Sandee Lee
3d. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
From: Howard Salob

4a. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
From: Jamie Dolan
4c. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
From: never_connected

5a. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
From: Andrea

6.1. Re: Fasting
From: Roseann

7a. Re: my visit to the vet
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Re: Newbie predator question
From: Giselle

9a. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
From: Giselle
9b. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
From: Meredith Soriano

10a. Re: Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
From: Carol Dunster
10b. Re: Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
From: Meredith Soriano

11. Naturally "processed" food
From: Carol Dunster

12a. Re: quarters turn into thighs and drumsticks
From: Kevin Brown
12b. Re: quarters turn into thighs and drumsticks
From: Laurie Swanson

13a. Re: List on Freecycle
From: Giselle

14. Urinary Question
From: Kevin Brown

15. swallowed wing bone
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: First week feeding raw
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tracy" <thibodeaux_tracy@...>
wrote:
>
> He been getting a little over 2 lbs whole or
> split chicken once a day. He used to eat 2 times a day so
> this has been very difficult for him to adjust to.

This could be the reason for the diarrhea. Try going back to 2
feedings/day with half the amount each feeding. His tummy may be
getting overwhelmed with that much at once. After a month or so,
you can try going back to one feeding a day if you wish.

> The two problems I have
> right now is that he is a bit of scarfer when it comes to
> food.

Dogs scarf. It's what they do. Don't try to impose human "manners"
on them.

> So,
> I began giving him partialy frozen chicken which has slowed
> him down a bit.

No reason to get him to slow down a bit. He is a dog, not a human.

> But, for some reason he has not gotten the concept of laying
> down and using his paws to rip at the meat and instead stands over
> it and scrapes with his teeth to get meat off then breaks huge
> pieces of bone and tries to eat it at one time.

Cool. No problem with that. My dogs stood for a long time then one
of them figured out to lay down and they both have been ever since.
The big deal is getting the food down, not the position they are in
when they eat it.

> I've found myself,
> more than once, taking a quarter of a chicken from his mouth and
> having to hold it so he will rip it apart.

Totally unnecessary.

> I don't know how to get
> him to lay down and use his paws. Any suggestions??

Yes. Find something important to worry about. :) :) :)

> The other problem is that he had runny stools for about 3
> days then
> solid for 2 days (which I was very pleased to see). But now today
> its runny again. We haven't changed anything since begining
> so I'm
> not sure what the problem is or if I should be concerned.

Try giving him two smaller meals each day for a month or so until
his tummy gets used to the new food.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: First week feeding raw
Posted by: "caroline gebbie" caz320ml@yahoo.com caz320ml
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:23 pm ((PDT))

I have had the same problem a few days fine smaller solid poos, this morning both dogs runny poos. I wondered if the chickens had too much fat, the first couple of days i cut some of the skin off?

Hope it sorts out soon.

Carline, Bonnie and Londo

Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote:

Have you been including the heart/liver/gizzard with the whole
chickens? I would save them for later on down the road if you
haven't already. These might be the cause of they runny poo. If you
have already removed the giblets he's probably getting too much
food. Back off on the amount a little bit until his digestion
settles out. At that point, use his physique to tell you if he needs
more or less food. If you can't see his last two ribs or you can't
easily feel them under his coat you can cut back the food. HTH

Andrea

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: First week feeding raw
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:49 pm ((PDT))

Yes, the bile vomit is because he is expecting morning breakfast. It
will go away in a few days when he realizes it isn't coming. I prefer
to feed adult dogs once a day since it gives you the opportunity to
give them big things like whole chicken.

I suspect some slightly smaller chickens would help you get his stools
under control.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tracy" <thibodeaux_tracy@...> wrote:

> But, he also seems to be throwing up yellow bile in the early
> afternoon. Do you think that could be caused by not getting any
> food in the morning?

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: A report
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

When you crack the egg in half you can just put the eggshell down along
with the egg and see if they go for it. Sometimes my dogs eat the
shell along with their eggs, sometimes they prefer tossing them around
and playing with them. You'll be adding bone soon so you shouldn't
worry about adding eggshells for calcium, just see if the pupsters like
them.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Dunster <cedunster@...> wrote:

> how would I feed the shells too? I can save shells from when I cook
> too. Can someone give me a "heads up" about feeding egg shells?
> Why? How? How much? sort of thing?

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: A report
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Dunster <cedunster@...> wrote:
>
> Can
> someone give me a "heads up" about feeding egg shells? Why? How? How
> much? sort of thing?

Yes, egg shells are for calcium. Most raw fed dogs get plenty of
calcium already so the egg shells really don't do much if anything for
them nutritionally. I don't give them to my dogs anymore. They get
more than enough bone.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi Trina,
I agree, but not my call. I just helping her with raw. I would be happy if he would just let her alone about it. I think he will see the results speak for themselves. Thanks Felicia

T Smith <coldbeach@gmail.com> wrote:
Who's dogs are they?
simple as that.
If he is unwilling to view & reasearch all alternatives, I hope he is NEVER
EVER EVER a vet!!!
Tell her to find a supportive b/f :-)
My pets come before any man
Take care,
Trina

>
> >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 2:08 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...> wrote:
>
> My friend just started her dog and cat to raw. I have been helping her get started and all
is going well. Her boyfriend happens to be a vet tech/ prevet major. He is chewing her up
one side and down the other over the raw food. He told her it will cause liver and kidney
failure and she is killing her pets. She has lots of info on the raw diet, benefits, getting
started ect. So far she is staying strong! Can anyone direct me to some articles that
grously describe what is in kibble? Thought if he read a convincing one maybe he would
back off of what she feeds her pets. I know they are there but I can't find them know that I
need them! Any other suggestions would be apprectiated. Felicia

Hi Felicia,

Well for starters, here's two mainstream articles which don't come from a raw food
perspective, but sure are good gross-outs!

here's a link to an article from the Los Angeles Times about how euthanized dogs and
cats' bodies end up in pet food:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0106-03.htm

My, uh, favorite part of this article is:

"The Food and Drug Administration has found "very, very low levels" of sodium
pentobarbital--the chemical used to euthanize animals--in some brands of dog food, said
Stephen Sundloff, director of the FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine. The agency is
investigating whether the traces are "of any significance at all," Sundloff said."

I'd like to know what they consider significance...

here's a link to a recent article from the very mainstream New York Times which shows
how the "science" behind the pet food industry seems focused on finding the cheapest/
highest profit-margin ingredients that won't immediately kill the animals its fed to, and
the article specifically points out, that the formulas are primarily geared towards making
predictable poops:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/magazine/02pet-t.html?
_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Again, the writer of this article is pretty ignorant of the fact that many people forgo the
whole industry and serve raw and home-made food, but nonetheless, it makes some very
interesting points and illustrates some pretty egregious facts.

And lastly, here's an article by a vet who was a USDA meat inspector before becoming a
small animal vet:
http://www.belfield.com/article3.html

he starts his article thus:
"Which commercial pet food do I recommend? That's the one question I am asked most
frequently in my practice. My standard answer is "none." But let me clarify. There is no
government agency setting quality standards and guidelines, so there are no assurances of
quality in pet food."

and the vet-tech student boyfriend should get this paragraph read out loud to him:

"I have been practicing small animal medicine for more than 30 years. Every day I have
seen the casualties of the propaganda by the pet food industry. Yet the professors in the
teaching institutions of veterinary medicine generally support an industry that has little
regard for the quality of health in our companion animals. The question has never been
whether or not pets are contracting diseases from pet food, but rather, what is the status
of our pets' health when they are fed a steady diet of toxic chemicals?"

I know you said your friend already has a lot of info pro-raw, make sure she also knows
about the yahoo group Raw Meaty Bones, which also has in its members files testimonials
from individuals documenting how long they've been feeding raw and why--often curing
some disease in the process, often with great superiority to some vet-prescribed
commercial food.

Good luck!

Sarah
with supervision from felidae Henry & Ivan and mustelidae Quercus & Ilex

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 2:23 pm ((PDT))

Up to date info regarding renal issues.....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/114796

http://rawfed.com/myths/kibble.html

http://www.homevet.com/petcare/foodbook.html
http://www.api4animals.org/facts?p=359&more=1
http://www.belfield.com/article3.html
http://www.pcoc.net/dog-food.htm

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Felicia Kost" <saphiradane@yahoo.com>

> My friend just started her dog and cat to raw. I have been helping her get
started and all is going well. Her boyfriend happens to be a vet tech/
prevet major. He is chewing her up one side and down the other over the raw
food. He told her it will cause liver and kidney failure and she is killing
her pets. She has lots of info on the raw diet, benefits, getting started
ect. So far she is staying strong! Can anyone direct me to some articles
that grously describe what is in kibble? Thought if he read a convincing
one maybe he would back off of what she feeds her pets. I know they are
there but I can't find them know that I need them! Any other suggestions
would be apprectiated. Felicia

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

Dear Sarah,

Great articles. Thank you for being aware and letting people know the truth.

Sincerely,
Howard

sarahfalkner <Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...> wrote:
>
> My friend just started her dog and cat to raw. I have been helping her get started and all
is going well. Her boyfriend happens to be a vet tech/ prevet major. He is chewing her up
one side and down the other over the raw food. He told her it will cause liver and kidney
failure and she is killing her pets. She has lots of info on the raw diet, benefits, getting
started ect. So far she is staying strong! Can anyone direct me to some articles that
grously describe what is in kibble? Thought if he read a convincing one maybe he would
back off of what she feeds her pets. I know they are there but I can't find them know that I
need them! Any other suggestions would be apprectiated. Felicia

Hi Felicia,

Well for starters, here's two mainstream articles which don't come from a raw food
perspective, but sure are good gross-outs!

here's a link to an article from the Los Angeles Times about how euthanized dogs and
cats' bodies end up in pet food:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0106-03.htm

My, uh, favorite part of this article is:

"The Food and Drug Administration has found "very, very low levels" of sodium
pentobarbital--the chemical used to euthanize animals--in some brands of dog food, said
Stephen Sundloff, director of the FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine. The agency is
investigating whether the traces are "of any significance at all," Sundloff said."

I'd like to know what they consider significance...

here's a link to a recent article from the very mainstream New York Times which shows
how the "science" behind the pet food industry seems focused on finding the cheapest/
highest profit-margin ingredients that won't immediately kill the animals its fed to, and
the article specifically points out, that the formulas are primarily geared towards making
predictable poops:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/magazine/02pet-t.html?
_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Again, the writer of this article is pretty ignorant of the fact that many people forgo the
whole industry and serve raw and home-made food, but nonetheless, it makes some very
interesting points and illustrates some pretty egregious facts.

And lastly, here's an article by a vet who was a USDA meat inspector before becoming a
small animal vet:
http://www.belfield.com/article3.html

he starts his article thus:
"Which commercial pet food do I recommend? That's the one question I am asked most
frequently in my practice. My standard answer is "none." But let me clarify. There is no
government agency setting quality standards and guidelines, so there are no assurances of
quality in pet food."

and the vet-tech student boyfriend should get this paragraph read out loud to him:

"I have been practicing small animal medicine for more than 30 years. Every day I have
seen the casualties of the propaganda by the pet food industry. Yet the professors in the
teaching institutions of veterinary medicine generally support an industry that has little
regard for the quality of health in our companion animals. The question has never been
whether or not pets are contracting diseases from pet food, but rather, what is the status
of our pets' health when they are fed a steady diet of toxic chemicals?"

I know you said your friend already has a lot of info pro-raw, make sure she also knows
about the yahoo group Raw Meaty Bones, which also has in its members files testimonials
from individuals documenting how long they've been feeding raw and why--often curing
some disease in the process, often with great superiority to some vet-prescribed
commercial food.

Good luck!

Sarah
with supervision from felidae Henry & Ivan and mustelidae Quercus & Ilex

---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "never_connected"
<never_connected@...> wrote:
>
> I've found that my dog with teeth problems and 2 of my cats do best
> with wings especially but can/will only eat them if they
> are crushed.

I think "do best" is in the eye of the beholder. I haven't seen a
carnovre that couldn't eat a chicken wing. They may prefer you
smash them up to make it easier but you aren't doing them a favor by
doing so.

If it were my animals, I would have to absolutely beyond a shadow of
a doubt be completely positive they could not get any nurishment
without me smashing before I would do so.

> So any suggestions how to do this or what to use so it's faster and
> easier?

Yes, It's much easier and faster if you don't do it at all. My
strong suspicion is that your animals have you trained very
well. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:24 pm ((PDT))

> So any suggestions how to do this or what to use so it's faster and
> easier? And yes, I tried running them over with my car and it didn't
> work lol.

Run them over with your car.

Seriously, what I would try is putting them between 2 hardwood boards,
(meat in the middle) and running your car over it (the boards) if you
want to use the car smash approach. I bet that will work well since
you will have the hard flat surface of the 2 boards pressing against
the meat and bones.

Otherwise, just use a kitchen mallet and cover it with a couple pieces
of plastic wrap or bags and beat it on the counter.

jamie

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
Posted by: "never_connected" never_connected@yahoo.com never_connected
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

> Seriously, what I would try is putting them between 2 hardwood boards,
> (meat in the middle) and running your car over it (the boards) if you
> want to use the car smash approach. I bet that will work well since
> you will have the hard flat surface of the 2 boards pressing against
> the meat and bones.

thanks.. already tried running them over but haven't tried it this way..

> Otherwise, just use a kitchen mallet and cover it with a couple pieces
> of plastic wrap or bags and beat it on the counter.
>
> jamie
>

Any particular mallet? I was using a rubber one from Home Depot and
the thing sucks. I was going to just buy a metal one. lol.

Jen

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

I used to use them, but as the pups' jaw strength increased the bully
sticks lasted a shorter and shorter amount of time. Eventually it just
wasn't cost effective to spend $12 for two minutes of fun.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Kathie Middlemiss <geekgirl717@...>
wrote:

> Anyone use bully sticks?

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6.1. Re: Fasting
Posted by: "Roseann" rgabrys@wyan.org gaiabreeze
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

Roseann wrote:
I'm off to meet the meat manager at Kroger
> today to see about any outdated meat... I'm really anxious to start
> introducing some variety. So far, she's only had chicken.
> Roseann and Mecka the 2yr old Great Dane

And home again. The store assistant manager said they have to return
all meat to their headquarters since they have serious liability issues.
Of course, the meat department didn't know that's the policy and I
have no doubt they do "throw it away" rather than shipping it back to
anywhere. Either way, I did grab a pack of pork country ribs off of the
super sale shelf. Personally, I don't eat mammals so I'm not sure what
constitutes "country ribs" but there doesn't seem to be much bone in the
package.
Roseann answering her own posts

Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: my visit to the vet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:22 pm ((PDT))

You know, it's really a shame vets can't even recall what they were taught
in college.....Merck, which is the veterinary Bible, states......

"The carbohydrates added to pet foods are mainly in the form of
polysaccharides (starch and cellulose), disaccharides (sucrose and lactose),
and monosaccharides (glucose and fructose). Carbohydrates are a less
expensive source of energy than fat or protein. In dogs, there appears to be
no dietary requirement for carbohydrate."

I realize they don't get any useful nutritional education and are clueless
and fearful when it comes to feeding raw, but they *could* as least stick to
the facts, couldn't they?????

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "esmolensky" <esmolensky@yahoo.com>

She then asked my what I fed him. I told her he is on a
raw diet. As soon as I said that she started huffing and
puffing(literally)
to a point that she was breathing hard, I acually thought she was
going to have a heart attack in front of me. She steeped out of the
room to get a glass of water and came back giving me the whole shpiel
on a balanced diet, the extreme need for carbs and of course
salmonella bacterias.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Newbie predator question
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi, cleone!
Yes, dogs can revert to their basic instincts if allowed to
'pack up' and are not given the proper training or supervision.

The story you related below happened because the OWNERS didn't take
their responsibilities seriously and provided NO training and NO
management of the dogs in their care.

Not allowing a dog to roam freely on its own, keeping it on lead if
its not dependably responsive to cues and training a really reliable
recall are a few of the obligations people take on when they accept
ownership of a dog.

Abrogating that responsibility and leaving a dog to its own devices is
a sure way to get it killed.

Sublimating prey drive in dogs and directing that drive into
acceptable outlets is something EVERY dog owner should be doing from
puppyhood on. Its not a raw thing, its a dog thing.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> You wrote that if a dog is well-fed it would probably not kill. The
truth is
> dogs are dogs and given a pack mentality and prey instinct, they
can and
> will hunt and kill. We lived adjacent to a cattle ranch in Sourhtern
California
> and calves were being killed. The rancher assumed it was coyotes. He
started
> posting watches and it turned out to be a 'pack' of local dogs, all
house
> pets, all well-fed on kibble diets, who were allowed to roam free.
They formed
> their own little pack and when seeing the cattle, gave chase and
brought down
> the young calves. Unfortunately all the dogs were destroyed , as
well as any
> other dog that wandered innocently onto the ranch property. But it had
> nothing to do with being fed kibble vs raw, it had to do with being
dogs.

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Meredith!
Here's some suggestions to get your little guy started
eating raw;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758
Message #130758
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134336
Message #134336

I don't recommend leaving her food out for an hour or more, if she
isn't eating it - no worries about salmonella, tho'.

Have you done any reading in the files and archives about starting raw
feeding?
These links can help you get started. Print them out if you want;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

TC and let us know how you progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> How long should I wait for my toy dog to eat this chicken? Is there a
> time Limit? Can she get salmonella poisoning after an hour or 2, I
> really have no clue.
>
> Thanks in Advance!
> Meredith

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Meredith Soriano" mom2mytwinz@yahoo.com mom2mytwinz
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:49 pm ((PDT))

That was very helpful...Thank you so much!!

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote: Hi, Meredith!
Here's some suggestions to get your little guy started
eating raw;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758
Message #130758
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134336
Message #134336

I don't recommend leaving her food out for an hour or more, if she
isn't eating it - no worries about salmonella, tho'.

Have you done any reading in the files and archives about starting raw
feeding?
These links can help you get started. Print them out if you want;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

TC and let us know how you progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> How long should I wait for my toy dog to eat this chicken? Is there a
> time Limit? Can she get salmonella poisoning after an hour or 2, I
> really have no clue.
>
> Thanks in Advance!
> Meredith

"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

Meredith

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:49 pm ((PDT))

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 07:39:38 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>yes, I'm saying she carries the WHOLE thigh around the house....=]

I'm afraid I'm lazy and my Silkys tend to be terriers to the core...
Every day at noon I crate them with their meals for a couple of hours
while I do other stuff, then I let them out. If it doesn't get eaten
during that time, I take appropriate action (no matter WHAT food I am
giving them!). If I tried to feed them out of their crates, I'd have
food possession issues - I work at home during the day, I don't have
time or inclination to deal with it.

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Meredith Soriano" mom2mytwinz@yahoo.com mom2mytwinz
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:49 pm ((PDT))

I don't think she likes chicken......she won't touch it now, maybe because I gave her some beef today, she killed that!! I'll stop with the beef and wait for her to come around with the chicken, I hope she eats it.....

Roseann <rgabrys@wyan.org> wrote: Meredith Soriano wrote:
>
>
> yes, I'm saying she carries the WHOLE thigh around the house....=]

I stand in the kitchen doorway so that my Great Dane doesn't drag her
food off to the living room. She still tries to get by me but no way is
she munching her raw food on the sofa! I thought about bringing her big
pillow into the kitchen in case she wanted to lay down and spend some
time with her bones (so far only chicken) but I can't imagine how I'd
clean the pillow up afterwards.
Roseann and Mecka the wanderer

"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

Meredith

---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11. Naturally "processed" food
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

I had to laugh thinking about all the things we start to worry about
our dogs eating... I have both dogs and ducks. When I bring my dogs
into the house for their meal, I turn the ducks out in the big back
yard to graze a bit. Later, I put them up and let the dogs back out.

It would seem that my dogs DO like to eat "processed" vegetable matter
after all! Ewwww!

Seriously, I have to wonder if wolves or dogs in the wild eat all the
poop that domestic dogs do? My dogs have always wanted to eat pretty
much any sort of poop they could get, is this part of a "natural" diet
for a dog? Is there any research out there about that?

Sorry if this is off topic, but I want to find out what you all know
about natural doggie diets. :)

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: quarters turn into thighs and drumsticks
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 2:07 pm ((PDT))

Dr. I would like your permission to ad this post to my web site's
information section.

May I please have your approval.

Thank you

Kevin Brown
www.guardiansbythesea.com

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Roseann <rgabrys@> wrote:
> >
> > So, if I give my Great Dane a quarter, she just snaps it in
> > half and
> > chomps the bones into pencil sharp pieces (I've seen those
> > pieces in a
> > morning reject/barf 12 hours after she had dinner) then
swallows.
>
> A couple of things here. First, you are equating dog chewing with
> human chewing. They are entirely different processes. Humans chew
> food into a mush before swallowing. Human digestion begins in the
> mouth. Dogs mearly crunch bones and meat into something small
> enough to fit down the throat. Some real big pices can fit down a
> big dog's throat. Dog digestion begins in the stomach.
>
> Second, those "sharp" pieces are not as sharp as they look. Also
> dog's "innards" are much tougher than you give them credit for.
>
> > To
> > me, it seems as though cutting the quarter for her would allo
> > her to
> > chew up the smaller pieces more and reduce the size of the
> > bones before
> > she swallows them.
>
> Your thinking is backward here. If you give a big dog smaller
> pieces they just swallow them whole with no chewing. My Danes have
> stolen the cat's chicken drumstick several times and never chomp
one
> time. It just goes in the mouth nnd down the throat. It has hever
> hurt them. There has never been any adverse consequences but they
> need to chew for dental hygene.
>
> > Don't big dogs consume the entire thing, bones and
> > all?
>
> Yep
>
> > I find the same to be true with backs--bigger pieces
> > get swallowed
> > in bigger hunks vs smaller chunks get more chewing. I'm
> > kinda confused...
>
> Heh heh, yes you are. Dogs CAN and usually do swallow pieces large
> enough to kill a human. Its the difference in how their digestive
> system is designed. Smaller pieces don't need chewing and won't
get
> chewed. Great Danes (I have 2 of them) can easily swallow
something
> almost as large as your fist. I often feed my dogs big chunks of
> beef heart from my hand that don't get chewed. Just straight down
> the chute.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: quarters turn into thighs and drumsticks
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi Roseann,

Perhaps your dog is an anomaly (they all are in some ways!), but this
isn't usually how things go with my dog. How long have you been
rawfeeding and have you tried large vs. small items to compare? You
might want to go even bigger to see what happens (like 1/2 a
chicken). If she's a newbie, she's probably quite excited about this
new food and she also may just need time to figure out how to eat
it. She'll probably slow down in time (mine has), too.

It sounds like she is breaking the bones down a bit, and again, if
she's new, it's fairly common to have some undigested bone vomits.
This will improve, as well.

One thought, though--my dog (20 lb. Boston) will swallow pretty big
pieces of something like a chicken back, I think because the bones
are so small he might not be able to sense them as well (then again,
they don't need as much breaking down, either). He chomps bigger
bones very well (like pork/lamb necks, goat legs/shoulders/ribs).
Just something to experiment with...

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Roseann <rgabrys@...> wrote:
I find the same to be true with backs--bigger pieces get swallowed
> in bigger hunks vs smaller chunks get more chewing.

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: List on Freecycle
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 2:44 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carole!
You got a lot of good advice from others on the list, so I
just have a few points to make.

1) As long as you are cautious and use your common sense to suss out
and eliminate problems in advance, you and your dog should be fine
using craigslist and Freecycle. Or even your local 'swapper' paper.

2) Some people are *fanatics* about their own 'flavor' of raw feeding,
and are very rigid, narrow and inflexible in their belief system, and
want to foist it on others.

3) She may have been a dealer, of B.A.R.F. or another prepackaged
processed raw brand and trying to take that opportunity to sell you on it.

My advice? Take the experience and put it into perspective, learn from
it and continue to try to find good cheap or free sources of raw for
your dogs.
TC
Giselle

> Okay, I have read here several times that a good place to score meat
> was place an ad on Freecycle and/or craigslist and ask for freezer
> burned meat and meat scrap from hunters. I placed an ad this
> morning and immediately received a response from someone who advised
> me as follows:
<snip>
> I am aware there are all kinds of people walking around in this
> world but I think basically people are decent and that something
> adverse happening would be quite remote. I'm just kind of gun shy
> about the whole thing now and would like some experiences. Thanks!
>
> Carole (Mom of 2 Greyhounds and 2 Italian Greys)

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14. Urinary Question
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

My younger OEM pup - is not actually on raw yet. I was waiting till
17 weeks old. Only because I used that date to switch my older OEM
pup and we had no problems.

The younger pup "Georgeanne" has sneaked away a bit here and a bit
there. Mostly has gotten her paws and teeth on pig feet and pork
neck bone.

I have been seperating the two when the older one "Baby" feeds.

This morning, Georgeanne began unirinating just about a tablespoon
full, so I started keeping an eye on her.

She walks around the place and stops every 30 seconds or so dropping
a tablespoon here, a tablespoon there. She will do this for about
three to 5 times and then resume normal activities.

She has only been here since Saturday. She was on well water on a
farm for 15 weeks before coming to the big city. I am figuring that
the change in enviorment, water, food stress. The urine is clear and
has no odor.

Other than that she is fine.

I got her on cranberry bladder stuff, just to be on the safe side.

any comments, advise or suggestions would be appreciated.

Kevin Brown
The Jersey Shore

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

15. swallowed wing bone
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

Spencer, my hoover dog of avocado pit fame, inhaled the thick end of a
chicken wing...whole. Hasn't pooped yet today and now I'm scared it's in there
blocking things (along with the avocado pit remains...sigh...which seem to have
been coming through bit by bit). He seems fine (as usual) in terms of
appetite, energy, sleep, play, etc. but drinking a little extra again.

I guess I just wait and watch, yes? I usually don't do the wings, but he's
been go good about crunching everything lately I thought it would be ok.

??

Carol

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12125

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
From: Pam Staley

2a. Whats really in dog food atricles?
From: Felicia Kost
2b. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
From: T Smith

3a. Re: quarters turn into thighs and drumsticks
From: carnesbill
3b. Re: quarters turn into thighs and drumsticks
From: Andrea

4a. Re: List on Freecycle
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: List on Freecycle
From: mgitaville
4c. Re: List on Freecycle
From: girlndocs
4d. Re: List on Freecycle
From: john payne

5a. Introducing raw- which order? (was:Newbie with a question)
From: jennifer_hell
5b. Re: Introducing raw- which order? (was:Newbie with a question)
From: Andrea
5c. Re: Introducing raw- which order? (was:Newbie with a question)
From: mgitaville
5d. Re: Introducing raw- which order? (was:Newbie with a question)
From: jennifer_hell
5e. Re: Introducing raw- which order? (was:Newbie with a question)
From: jennifer_hell

6a. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
From: Jamie Dolan

7a. Re: NEED ADVICE - BOWEL DISTRESS
From: gbongi1

8a. First week feeding raw
From: Tracy
8b. Re: First week feeding raw
From: Andrea
8c. Re: First week feeding raw
From: Sandee Lee
8d. Re: First week feeding raw
From: Tracy

9. How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
From: never_connected

10. there's no denying the evidence! I t really works!!
From: Marisa

11a. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
From: Kathie Middlemiss

12. A report
From: Carol Dunster

13a. Re: Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
From: Roseann

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
Posted by: "Pam Staley" pam@tlcnaturally.com mogalone2001
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 10:34 am ((PDT))

I've had a couple people email me that they are from MO - and are
interested in this free organs/meat that is available from my local
butcher - if anyone else is interested from MO - I'd like to get a MO
list going - please email me off line if you're interested in it -
probably would be mostly for notices on where we can network for
sharing raw meat supplies - so probably not a whole lot of emails
flying back and forth - in fact, think I'll just make one up now - if
you want to join it - go to to yahoogroups.com and plug in Missouri
Natural Pets - or email me and I'll send you an invitation - not sure
how long it will take yahoo to get it listed. This is strictly for
MISSOURI raw feeders - let's network together!

Pam
pam@tlcnaturally.com

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Vicki" <vicki@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Staley" <pam@> wrote:
> >
> > Is there a list or does anyone know of MO raw - feeders? I've
found a
> > source that can supply 500-1000lbs of free meat - hearts/livers/
> > kidneys ect ect... need to spread it around :-)
> >
> > Pam
> > Wright City, MO
> >
> I am here in Spokane, MO, just south of Springfield and would be
very
> interested...
>
> Vicki
>

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Whats really in dog food atricles?
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 10:35 am ((PDT))

My friend just started her dog and cat to raw. I have been helping her get started and all is going well. Her boyfriend happens to be a vet tech/ prevet major. He is chewing her up one side and down the other over the raw food. He told her it will cause liver and kidney failure and she is killing her pets. She has lots of info on the raw diet, benefits, getting started ect. So far she is staying strong! Can anyone direct me to some articles that grously describe what is in kibble? Thought if he read a convincing one maybe he would back off of what she feeds her pets. I know they are there but I can't find them know that I need them! Any other suggestions would be apprectiated. Felicia

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT))

Who's dogs are they?
simple as that.
If he is unwilling to view & reasearch all alternatives, I hope he is NEVER
EVER EVER a vet!!!
Tell her to find a supportive b/f :-)
My pets come before any man
Take care,
Trina

On 10/5/07, Felicia Kost <saphiradane@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> My friend just started her dog and cat to raw. I have been helping her
> get started and all is going well. Her boyfriend happens to be a vet tech/
> prevet major. He is chewing her up one side and down the other over the raw
> food. He told her it will cause liver and kidney failure and she is killing
> her pets. She has lots of info on the raw diet, benefits, getting started
> ect. So far she is staying strong! Can anyone direct me to some articles
> that grously describe what is in kibble? Thought if he read a convincing one
> maybe he would back off of what she feeds her pets. I know they are there
> but I can't find them know that I need them! Any other suggestions would be
> apprectiated. Felicia
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: quarters turn into thighs and drumsticks
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 10:37 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Roseann <rgabrys@...> wrote:
>
> So, if I give my Great Dane a quarter, she just snaps it in
> half and
> chomps the bones into pencil sharp pieces (I've seen those
> pieces in a
> morning reject/barf 12 hours after she had dinner) then swallows.

A couple of things here. First, you are equating dog chewing with
human chewing. They are entirely different processes. Humans chew
food into a mush before swallowing. Human digestion begins in the
mouth. Dogs mearly crunch bones and meat into something small
enough to fit down the throat. Some real big pices can fit down a
big dog's throat. Dog digestion begins in the stomach.

Second, those "sharp" pieces are not as sharp as they look. Also
dog's "innards" are much tougher than you give them credit for.

> To
> me, it seems as though cutting the quarter for her would allo
> her to
> chew up the smaller pieces more and reduce the size of the
> bones before
> she swallows them.

Your thinking is backward here. If you give a big dog smaller
pieces they just swallow them whole with no chewing. My Danes have
stolen the cat's chicken drumstick several times and never chomp one
time. It just goes in the mouth nnd down the throat. It has hever
hurt them. There has never been any adverse consequences but they
need to chew for dental hygene.

> Don't big dogs consume the entire thing, bones and
> all?

Yep

> I find the same to be true with backs--bigger pieces
> get swallowed
> in bigger hunks vs smaller chunks get more chewing. I'm
> kinda confused...

Heh heh, yes you are. Dogs CAN and usually do swallow pieces large
enough to kill a human. Its the difference in how their digestive
system is designed. Smaller pieces don't need chewing and won't get
chewed. Great Danes (I have 2 of them) can easily swallow something
almost as large as your fist. I often feed my dogs big chunks of
beef heart from my hand that don't get chewed. Just straight down
the chute.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: quarters turn into thighs and drumsticks
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 10:38 am ((PDT))

IME, a dog that eats a leg quarter quickly will eat a lone thigh or leg
even more quickly with less chewing. The thing is that dogs don't
really have to chew their food into little bits before eating. If they
get a big chunk down it will digest in their stomach. If the bone
takes too long to digest the dog often just horks it back up later. No
harm, no foul. If you want to slow your dog down it is best to offer
bigger pieces (half chicken) or partially freeze it so it offers more
resistance.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Roseann <rgabrys@...> wrote:

> So, if I give my Great Dane a quarter, she just snaps it in half
> and chomps the bones into pencil sharp pieces (I've seen those
> pieces in a morning reject/barf 12 hours after she had dinner) then
> swallows. To me, it seems as though cutting the quarter for her
> would allow her to chew up the smaller pieces more and reduce the
> size of the bones before she swallows them.

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: List on Freecycle
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 10:37 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, john payne <brendajohn2823@...>
wrote:
>
> in fact ive personally converted 4 people this way.

Oh, I NEVER convert anyone who is a source of free meat!!! :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: List on Freecycle
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 11:19 am ((PDT))

You are doing better than I - the freecycle lists I belong to around
here will not allow me to post this type of message (asking for
meat)....well, told me basically if I did it again I would be removed.
Apparently they received complaints about it b/c thought it
was "creepy"...umm, ok, whatever. I kindly pointed out that in now way
was I violating any of the guidelines and in fact had GIVEN away other
surplus food items just earlier in the month. I was ignored after this.

I say just ignore the emails that come in that are not helpful.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: List on Freecycle
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT))

Hi Carole,

> "Please consider the following: -strangers can be evil. You just
> never know if a stranger has added poison, antifreeze, or other
> harmful things to your pet's possible food.

Yes, and thousands of people are also convinced their children are at
risk for poisoned/tampered Halloween candy from strangers, although I
don't think there's been a single substantiated instance of it. And
thousands of people are convinced that around Halloween gangs of
Satanists sacrifice black cats, although I don't think there's been a
single substantiated instance of THAT either.

"A PERSON is smart. PEOPLE are dumb, stupid, panicky animals." True,
that Men In Black line. We live in an age where information travels
faster than common sense.

I actually considered this risk when I first ran my ads. I concluded
that it was vanishingly small enough for me to dismiss.

First as someone mentioned, you'll be picking this meat up at their
house. You'll know where they live and what their names are. You'll
meet them and chat with them, and your intuition will have plenty of
chance to scream at you if there's anything "off" about them.

Second, for the most part you're going to be getting frozen hunks of
meat -- think about the likelihood that someone would inject meat with
poison and then store it in their freezer on the off chance that
someday, someone with a pet will ask for it.

Third, does she really think that anyone with half a brain wouldn't be
able to detect antifreeze in meat? And if it's not antifreeze how many
animal-haters are running around with deadly poisons that dogs
wouldn't detect?

My solution to this perceived risk was to use the same common sense
that I would buying or accepting meat for my own use. If it smells or
looks strange, don't feed it. If the dogs balk at it, don't feed it.
If the person giving it to me sets off my weirdometer, don't feed it.
If anything about the situation seems off or makes me uneasy, don't
feed it. Otherwise, I am confortable enjoying the fruits of creative
money-saving without freaking out about every minute possibility of
danger.

I firmly believe that when we live in a state of fear about every
little tiny horror story anyone has ever heard or invented, we not
only rob ourselves of experiencing life -- we cripple ourselves when
it comes to detecting REAL danger.

Everyone is free to determine their own level of comfort for taking
risks. But nothing in life is risk-free, you have to remember that. To
me, worrying about the remote possibility that a dog-hating psycho
might poison my Freecycle meat is the raw feeding equivalent of
strapping myself to the sofa.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (6)
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4d. Re: List on Freecycle
Posted by: "john payne" brendajohn2823@yahoo.com brendajohn2823
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

yes, but they were so interested and the one ladies little poodle looked terrible, patchs of skin showing and hot spots, now the little guy is all healthy and happy. another one had a mastiff that would not eat k****e, she had like 6 open bags and he hated them, so at least he's now eating.
B

carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, john payne <brendajohn2823@...>
wrote:
>
> in fact ive personally converted 4 people this way.

Oh, I NEVER convert anyone who is a source of free meat!!! :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Introducing raw- which order? (was:Newbie with a question)
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 10:37 am ((PDT))

>Here's what I will
> be able to get in the next couple of months:
> Chicken:
> carcasses, heart, stomach, liver
> Turkey:
> carcasses, necks
> Lamb:
> heart, liver, lungs, part of the stomach,ribs, spine.
I found a source for beef midriff (diaphragm). Hope I can get more
beef there. Would I introduce chicken and turkey first, then lamb,
then beef? Would that be okay? I'd start out with chicken and chicken
heart and stomach, then add turkey necks, then carcasse, then lamb,
then beef?
Gosh, being a newbie is indeed nerve- wrecking!
Thanks for any input!
Jennifer with Mandy from Germany

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Introducing raw- which order? (was:Newbie with a question)
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 11:18 am ((PDT))

The order doesn't really matter as long as you give the stomach time in
between to get used to the new protein. It appears that more fatty
meats take more getting used to than others, so your idea of leaving
the lamb and beef for last is a good one.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:

> I'd start out with chicken and chicken heart and stomach, then add
> turkey necks, then carcasse, then lamb, then beef?

Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: Introducing raw- which order? (was:Newbie with a question)
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 11:19 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
>
> >Here's what I will
> > be able to get in the next couple of months:
> > Chicken:
> > carcasses, heart, stomach, liver
> > Turkey:
> > carcasses, necks
> > Lamb:
> > heart, liver, lungs, part of the stomach,ribs, spine.
> I found a source for beef midriff (diaphragm). Hope I can get more
> beef there. Would I introduce chicken and turkey first, then lamb,
> then beef? Would that be okay? I'd start out with chicken and
chicken
> heart and stomach, then add turkey necks, then carcasse, then lamb,
> then beef?
> Gosh, being a newbie is indeed nerve- wrecking!
> Thanks for any input!
> Jennifer with Mandy from Germany
>

***** I do not think it is as important to think about *which*
protien source to start with as much as it is important to think
about *what* part of that source to feed. For example, starting with
chicken, turkey, or even pork (though my recomendation is for
chicken) would be fine IF it is a raw meaty born portion. However,
you mentioned things like heart, stomach, liver, etc. that I would
wait until you get a month in for. So, it may be best to do chicken,
pork, beef and THEN go back to chicken heart or stomach, beef heart
or liver, etc.

Make sense? You want to put the "rich" items on the backburner at
first. Items like lamb and venison are rich meats as well so I
wouldn't start with them.

I think it is important as a newbie to not introduce more than one
new item a week. Some dogs don't adjust as quickly and need even
more time. So, start with chicken for example and give it for a
week. If all is well then try maybe pork the next week so now you
are giving pork and chicken during hte 2nd week. If all is well try
something else. Around week 5 try small bits of liver or other
organs. This is my recommendation.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (5)
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5d. Re: Introducing raw- which order? (was:Newbie with a question)
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> The order doesn't really matter as long as you give the stomach time in
> between to get used to the new protein.

Thank you. That's reassuring. =)

Jennifer with Mandy from Germany

Messages in this topic (5)
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5e. Re: Introducing raw- which order? (was:Newbie with a question)
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mgitaville" <mgitaville@...> wrote:

> ***** I do not think it is as important to think about *which*
> protien source to start with as much as it is important to think
> about *what* part of that source to feed. For example, starting with
> chicken, turkey, or even pork (though my recomendation is for
> chicken) would be fine IF it is a raw meaty born portion. However,
> you mentioned things like heart, stomach, liver, etc. that I would
> wait until you get a month in for.

Makes totally sense to me. So I might be feeding a little too much
bone in the beginning, but will feed more meat when I'll be able to
add the beef and heart. Does that sound okay? I might come the beef
midriff after a week or so then, depending on how my dog tolerates the
chicken.

Jennifer with Mandy from Germany

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 10:39 am ((PDT))

> I'd say you have scored. You wrote the pig you got was frozen. Do
> you know how long? My guess is whatever freezing it got is plenty.

It was still Oinkin about there days ago at this time. They killed
him some time tuesday afternoon. So he has only been frozen since
late tuesday or perhaps wednesday morning if he was just chilled
overnight.

> *****
> I don't know enough of the gory details to be of much help. Perhaps
> others can offer up some answers.
> Chris O

I did find this online last night:

"Trichinella is killed when pork is frozen at minus 5 degrees F for 25
days OR to minus 22 degrees F for 25 hours."

I am not sure how cold my freezers are though... And I am not sure if
the trich is even a problem in the first place.

Jamie

Messages in this topic (14)
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7a. Re: NEED ADVICE - BOWEL DISTRESS
Posted by: "gbongi1" gbongi1@comcast.net gbongi1
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT))

>
> I also think you went too fast. I suggest you fast her for a day,
> then feed her nothing but chicken for 2 weeks. Be sure there is
> plenty of bone in the chicken.

I am a newbie too and I used too much variety at first.

> After 2 weeks add some turkey meals a couple of times that week. A
> week later add a pork meal or 2. A week later, try beef again. A
> week later try some fish.

Per my trainer she also suggested a 24 hour fast with beef broth and
water during fast. And I was to add more breast meet to the bone meat
(I was giving too much bone).
Ever since the fast he's been doing great!!! (3 weeks a go)

I feed my guy primarily chicken (whole over time) with organ. Lamb and
beef hearts and lamb kidneys thus far.
I am no expert but I will be adding more of a variety at a much slower
pace now

I haven't been dong this long but my buddy is leaner, faster and all
muscle. Very strong for a dog his size. I do believe in the raw diet
so far.

take care

~g~

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. First week feeding raw
Posted by: "Tracy" thibodeaux_tracy@msn.com itstracyt
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 11:38 am ((PDT))

Hi,
I have a few questions in which any help would be greatly
apreciated. We have a 5 year old 100lb Lab who for the most part
has always been very healthy. After reading so much on the benefits
of raw feeding I've decided to give it a try. Begining this week,
we start feeding him raw chicken as suggested my many posts I've
read on this board. He been getting a little over 2 lbs whole or
split chicken once a day. He used to eat 2 times a day so this has
been very difficult for him to adjust to. The two problems I have
right now is that he is a bit of scarfer when it comes to food. So,
I began giving him partialy frozen chicken which has slowed him down
a bit. But, for some reason he has not gotten the concept of laying
down and using his paws to rip at the meat and instead stands over
it and scrapes with his teeth to get meat off then breaks huge
pieces of bone and tries to eat it at one time. I've found myself,
more than once, taking a quarter of a chicken from his mouth and
having to hold it so he will rip it apart. I don't know how to get
him to lay down and use his paws. Any suggestions??

The other problem is that he had runny stools for about 3 days then
solid for 2 days (which I was very pleased to see). But now today
its runny again. We haven't changed anything since begining so I'm
not sure what the problem is or if I should be concerned.

Thanks for your help,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: First week feeding raw
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

Some dogs just don't enjoy laying down to eat. Some flat out refuse
to touch their paws to their food no matter what. My newf mix puppy
always plops down next to his food at chowtime, but he doesn't use
his feet except to position the food. My GSP mix almost always eats
standing up and uses his paws to hold down big food. Neither dog
seems to think they need their paws for chicken. There have been
other posts today about dogs eating habits. What we think is
impossibly big for them to swallow usually isn't a big deal to them.

Have you been including the heart/liver/gizzard with the whole
chickens? I would save them for later on down the road if you
haven't already. These might be the cause of they runny poo. If you
have already removed the giblets he's probably getting too much
food. Back off on the amount a little bit until his digestion
settles out. At that point, use his physique to tell you if he needs
more or less food. If you can't see his last two ribs or you can't
easily feel them under his coat you can cut back the food. HTH

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tracy" <thibodeaux_tracy@...>
wrote:

> for some reason he has not gotten the concept of laying
> down and using his paws to rip at the meat and instead stands over
> it and scrapes with his teeth to get meat off then breaks huge
> pieces of bone and tries to eat it at one time.

Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Re: First week feeding raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:14 pm ((PDT))

Tracy,

Large meals can cause runny stools...it could just be due to the fact that
you are feeding him one large meal rather than the two he was used to.

It definitely isn't necessary for a dog to either lay down or use feet to
eat! Every dog has their own eating habits.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Tracy" <thibodeaux_tracy@msn.com>

But, for some reason he has not gotten the concept of laying
down and using his paws to rip at the meat and instead stands over
it and scrapes with his teeth to get meat off then breaks huge
pieces of bone and tries to eat it at one time. I've found myself,
more than once, taking a quarter of a chicken from his mouth and
having to hold it so he will rip it apart. I don't know how to get
him to lay down and use his paws. Any suggestions??

The other problem is that he had runny stools for about 3 days then
solid for 2 days (which I was very pleased to see). But now today
its runny again. We haven't changed anything since begining so I'm
not sure what the problem is or if I should be concerned.

Messages in this topic (4)
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8d. Re: First week feeding raw
Posted by: "Tracy" thibodeaux_tracy@msn.com itstracyt
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:20 pm ((PDT))

Thank you for your response. I have not been giving him the
heart/liver/gizzards at all yet. I thought i should wait for that
given this problem. He is his perfect weight right now, we can see
and feel his last two ribs. But, he also seems to be throwing up
yellow bile in the early afternoon. Do you think that could be
caused by not getting any food in the morning? Should I start
splitting his food into 2 portions (breakfast and dinner) as he was
used to before? I've read that when they anticipate food their
digestive juices start to flow causing the upset stomach and then
thowing up bile.
Tracy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> Some dogs just don't enjoy laying down to eat. Some flat out
refuse
> to touch their paws to their food no matter what. My newf mix
puppy
> always plops down next to his food at chowtime, but he doesn't use
> his feet except to position the food. My GSP mix almost always
eats
> standing up and uses his paws to hold down big food. Neither dog
> seems to think they need their paws for chicken. There have been
> other posts today about dogs eating habits. What we think is
> impossibly big for them to swallow usually isn't a big deal to
them.
>
> Have you been including the heart/liver/gizzard with the whole
> chickens? I would save them for later on down the road if you
> haven't already. These might be the cause of they runny poo. If
you
> have already removed the giblets he's probably getting too much
> food. Back off on the amount a little bit until his digestion
> settles out. At that point, use his physique to tell you if he
needs
> more or less food. If you can't see his last two ribs or you
can't
> easily feel them under his coat you can cut back the food. HTH
>
> Andrea
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tracy" <thibodeaux_tracy@>
> wrote:
>
> > for some reason he has not gotten the concept of laying
> > down and using his paws to rip at the meat and instead stands
over
> > it and scrapes with his teeth to get meat off then breaks huge
> > pieces of bone and tries to eat it at one time.
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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9. How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
Posted by: "never_connected" never_connected@yahoo.com never_connected
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

I've found that my dog with teeth problems and 2 of my cats do best
with wings especially but can/will only eat them if they are crushed.
This is way too much work for me as I have to go outside and wack and
hack the thing up on the cement along with getting attacked by flies
and bees unless I do it at night.

Like with the wings, I get to smash and crush the hell out of the
bones but the meat is still left and they still have to tear and chew
it to eat it. Unlike ground which is a complete pile of mush.

So any suggestions how to do this or what to use so it's faster and
easier? And yes, I tried running them over with my car and it didn't
work lol.

Jen

Messages in this topic (1)
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10. there's no denying the evidence! I t really works!!
Posted by: "Marisa" mrsdog_lover@yahoo.com mrsdog_lover
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi, i'm Marisa, i happily raw feed my 3 dogs since the 2nd of may
2007, up to now,i've had no problems and the dogs are always looking
forward to their daily feed.
The other day i had to go in hospital for 3 days, and since i'm the
one who takes care of my dogs and feed them, my husband found excuses
of not being able to touch and select their daily portion ( as i
freeze the 3 portions in blok and then divide the portions once it
has unfrozen) 60gr for my doberman pinscher, 200gr for my elderly
mongrel, and 260gr for my welsh corgi.
It's no trouble for me touching squeegy slimy offal or rabbits heads
and sheeps heads with their eyes popping out....no way, it doesn't
trouble me at all!! But my hubby had a look of disgust on his face
when i told him what was done and the amount to give each dog.
Any way, to make things breif, i went out and bought just the amount
of canned food for 3 days!!
They gobbled up the canned food in minutes, it was told me, but i
was preoccupied in case they didn't want their natural food once i
got dismissed from the hospital, but i was wrong!!
As soon as i was home, the dogs were so exited to see me that they
jumped up and down, the corgi breathed heavily in my face ( he always
feels hot even in winter)and i noticed he had a heavy breath that i'd
never smelt before, so i picked up the pinscher and noticed the same
thing. Their teeth, in only 3 days, were covered in a soft orange
substance!!! Is it possible in such a short time??'
I soon put things right with giving them their raw food to eat and i
also helped them with an old tooth brusn and just clean water.
Regards MARISA

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

Well, I don't know if my pups are just mouthier than others or what.

They've been gnawing the heck out of a pork shoulder for a few meals and
still come in looking for something else to chew.

Anyone use bully sticks?

Kathie

Andrea wrote:
>
> IME, if you give pups big complicated food daily and some good ol' raw
> chewing fun here and there the desire to chew throughout the day goes
> away. I used pork feet for Geiger and Tycho when they started teething
> as extra chewing fun. I've heard that antlers are good if you can get
> them.
>
> Andrea
>
> -
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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12. A report
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 12:31 pm ((PDT))

Well, today I took the plunge with what I had on hand and each of my
Silkys got a small serving of partially frozen raw hamburger. They
were certainly happy with the idea. I've been feeding them raw eggs
and liver as a supplement to their kibble for the last couple of
years, so I figure I can add either one to the ground beef pretty
comfortably.

I'll have to pick up something with bones soon though. Hard to do when
you don't shop much. On the other hand, they haven't been getting
bones and they've survived quite a few years already, a couple of
weeks won't kill them, I'm sure.

I have a question about egg shells. I see that people feed them and
assume they are for calcium? I split one of my duck eggs among the
four of them usually (the duck eggs weigh about 3 oz each), how would
I feed the shells too? I can save shells from when I cook too. Can
someone give me a "heads up" about feeding egg shells? Why? How? How
much? sort of thing?

Thanks!
~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Roseann" rgabrys@wyan.org gaiabreeze
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:20 pm ((PDT))

Meredith Soriano wrote:
>
>
> yes, I'm saying she carries the WHOLE thigh around the house....=]

I stand in the kitchen doorway so that my Great Dane doesn't drag her
food off to the living room. She still tries to get by me but no way is
she munching her raw food on the sofa! I thought about bringing her big
pillow into the kitchen in case she wanted to lay down and spend some
time with her bones (so far only chicken) but I can't imagine how I'd
clean the pillow up afterwards.
Roseann and Mecka the wanderer

Messages in this topic (5)
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