[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12126

There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: First week feeding raw
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: First week feeding raw
From: caroline gebbie
1c. Re: First week feeding raw
From: Andrea

2a. Re: A report
From: Andrea
2b. Re: A report
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
From: Felicia Kost
3b. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
From: sarahfalkner
3c. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
From: Sandee Lee
3d. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
From: Howard Salob

4a. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
From: Jamie Dolan
4c. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
From: never_connected

5a. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
From: Andrea

6.1. Re: Fasting
From: Roseann

7a. Re: my visit to the vet
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Re: Newbie predator question
From: Giselle

9a. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
From: Giselle
9b. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
From: Meredith Soriano

10a. Re: Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
From: Carol Dunster
10b. Re: Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
From: Meredith Soriano

11. Naturally "processed" food
From: Carol Dunster

12a. Re: quarters turn into thighs and drumsticks
From: Kevin Brown
12b. Re: quarters turn into thighs and drumsticks
From: Laurie Swanson

13a. Re: List on Freecycle
From: Giselle

14. Urinary Question
From: Kevin Brown

15. swallowed wing bone
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

Messages
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1a. Re: First week feeding raw
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tracy" <thibodeaux_tracy@...>
wrote:
>
> He been getting a little over 2 lbs whole or
> split chicken once a day. He used to eat 2 times a day so
> this has been very difficult for him to adjust to.

This could be the reason for the diarrhea. Try going back to 2
feedings/day with half the amount each feeding. His tummy may be
getting overwhelmed with that much at once. After a month or so,
you can try going back to one feeding a day if you wish.

> The two problems I have
> right now is that he is a bit of scarfer when it comes to
> food.

Dogs scarf. It's what they do. Don't try to impose human "manners"
on them.

> So,
> I began giving him partialy frozen chicken which has slowed
> him down a bit.

No reason to get him to slow down a bit. He is a dog, not a human.

> But, for some reason he has not gotten the concept of laying
> down and using his paws to rip at the meat and instead stands over
> it and scrapes with his teeth to get meat off then breaks huge
> pieces of bone and tries to eat it at one time.

Cool. No problem with that. My dogs stood for a long time then one
of them figured out to lay down and they both have been ever since.
The big deal is getting the food down, not the position they are in
when they eat it.

> I've found myself,
> more than once, taking a quarter of a chicken from his mouth and
> having to hold it so he will rip it apart.

Totally unnecessary.

> I don't know how to get
> him to lay down and use his paws. Any suggestions??

Yes. Find something important to worry about. :) :) :)

> The other problem is that he had runny stools for about 3
> days then
> solid for 2 days (which I was very pleased to see). But now today
> its runny again. We haven't changed anything since begining
> so I'm
> not sure what the problem is or if I should be concerned.

Try giving him two smaller meals each day for a month or so until
his tummy gets used to the new food.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: First week feeding raw
Posted by: "caroline gebbie" caz320ml@yahoo.com caz320ml
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:23 pm ((PDT))

I have had the same problem a few days fine smaller solid poos, this morning both dogs runny poos. I wondered if the chickens had too much fat, the first couple of days i cut some of the skin off?

Hope it sorts out soon.

Carline, Bonnie and Londo

Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote:

Have you been including the heart/liver/gizzard with the whole
chickens? I would save them for later on down the road if you
haven't already. These might be the cause of they runny poo. If you
have already removed the giblets he's probably getting too much
food. Back off on the amount a little bit until his digestion
settles out. At that point, use his physique to tell you if he needs
more or less food. If you can't see his last two ribs or you can't
easily feel them under his coat you can cut back the food. HTH

Andrea

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

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Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: First week feeding raw
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:49 pm ((PDT))

Yes, the bile vomit is because he is expecting morning breakfast. It
will go away in a few days when he realizes it isn't coming. I prefer
to feed adult dogs once a day since it gives you the opportunity to
give them big things like whole chicken.

I suspect some slightly smaller chickens would help you get his stools
under control.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tracy" <thibodeaux_tracy@...> wrote:

> But, he also seems to be throwing up yellow bile in the early
> afternoon. Do you think that could be caused by not getting any
> food in the morning?

Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: A report
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

When you crack the egg in half you can just put the eggshell down along
with the egg and see if they go for it. Sometimes my dogs eat the
shell along with their eggs, sometimes they prefer tossing them around
and playing with them. You'll be adding bone soon so you shouldn't
worry about adding eggshells for calcium, just see if the pupsters like
them.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Dunster <cedunster@...> wrote:

> how would I feed the shells too? I can save shells from when I cook
> too. Can someone give me a "heads up" about feeding egg shells?
> Why? How? How much? sort of thing?

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: A report
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Dunster <cedunster@...> wrote:
>
> Can
> someone give me a "heads up" about feeding egg shells? Why? How? How
> much? sort of thing?

Yes, egg shells are for calcium. Most raw fed dogs get plenty of
calcium already so the egg shells really don't do much if anything for
them nutritionally. I don't give them to my dogs anymore. They get
more than enough bone.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi Trina,
I agree, but not my call. I just helping her with raw. I would be happy if he would just let her alone about it. I think he will see the results speak for themselves. Thanks Felicia

T Smith <coldbeach@gmail.com> wrote:
Who's dogs are they?
simple as that.
If he is unwilling to view & reasearch all alternatives, I hope he is NEVER
EVER EVER a vet!!!
Tell her to find a supportive b/f :-)
My pets come before any man
Take care,
Trina

>
> >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 2:08 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...> wrote:
>
> My friend just started her dog and cat to raw. I have been helping her get started and all
is going well. Her boyfriend happens to be a vet tech/ prevet major. He is chewing her up
one side and down the other over the raw food. He told her it will cause liver and kidney
failure and she is killing her pets. She has lots of info on the raw diet, benefits, getting
started ect. So far she is staying strong! Can anyone direct me to some articles that
grously describe what is in kibble? Thought if he read a convincing one maybe he would
back off of what she feeds her pets. I know they are there but I can't find them know that I
need them! Any other suggestions would be apprectiated. Felicia

Hi Felicia,

Well for starters, here's two mainstream articles which don't come from a raw food
perspective, but sure are good gross-outs!

here's a link to an article from the Los Angeles Times about how euthanized dogs and
cats' bodies end up in pet food:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0106-03.htm

My, uh, favorite part of this article is:

"The Food and Drug Administration has found "very, very low levels" of sodium
pentobarbital--the chemical used to euthanize animals--in some brands of dog food, said
Stephen Sundloff, director of the FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine. The agency is
investigating whether the traces are "of any significance at all," Sundloff said."

I'd like to know what they consider significance...

here's a link to a recent article from the very mainstream New York Times which shows
how the "science" behind the pet food industry seems focused on finding the cheapest/
highest profit-margin ingredients that won't immediately kill the animals its fed to, and
the article specifically points out, that the formulas are primarily geared towards making
predictable poops:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/magazine/02pet-t.html?
_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Again, the writer of this article is pretty ignorant of the fact that many people forgo the
whole industry and serve raw and home-made food, but nonetheless, it makes some very
interesting points and illustrates some pretty egregious facts.

And lastly, here's an article by a vet who was a USDA meat inspector before becoming a
small animal vet:
http://www.belfield.com/article3.html

he starts his article thus:
"Which commercial pet food do I recommend? That's the one question I am asked most
frequently in my practice. My standard answer is "none." But let me clarify. There is no
government agency setting quality standards and guidelines, so there are no assurances of
quality in pet food."

and the vet-tech student boyfriend should get this paragraph read out loud to him:

"I have been practicing small animal medicine for more than 30 years. Every day I have
seen the casualties of the propaganda by the pet food industry. Yet the professors in the
teaching institutions of veterinary medicine generally support an industry that has little
regard for the quality of health in our companion animals. The question has never been
whether or not pets are contracting diseases from pet food, but rather, what is the status
of our pets' health when they are fed a steady diet of toxic chemicals?"

I know you said your friend already has a lot of info pro-raw, make sure she also knows
about the yahoo group Raw Meaty Bones, which also has in its members files testimonials
from individuals documenting how long they've been feeding raw and why--often curing
some disease in the process, often with great superiority to some vet-prescribed
commercial food.

Good luck!

Sarah
with supervision from felidae Henry & Ivan and mustelidae Quercus & Ilex

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 2:23 pm ((PDT))

Up to date info regarding renal issues.....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/114796

http://rawfed.com/myths/kibble.html

http://www.homevet.com/petcare/foodbook.html
http://www.api4animals.org/facts?p=359&more=1
http://www.belfield.com/article3.html
http://www.pcoc.net/dog-food.htm

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Felicia Kost" <saphiradane@yahoo.com>

> My friend just started her dog and cat to raw. I have been helping her get
started and all is going well. Her boyfriend happens to be a vet tech/
prevet major. He is chewing her up one side and down the other over the raw
food. He told her it will cause liver and kidney failure and she is killing
her pets. She has lots of info on the raw diet, benefits, getting started
ect. So far she is staying strong! Can anyone direct me to some articles
that grously describe what is in kibble? Thought if he read a convincing
one maybe he would back off of what she feeds her pets. I know they are
there but I can't find them know that I need them! Any other suggestions
would be apprectiated. Felicia

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: Whats really in dog food atricles?
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

Dear Sarah,

Great articles. Thank you for being aware and letting people know the truth.

Sincerely,
Howard

sarahfalkner <Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...> wrote:
>
> My friend just started her dog and cat to raw. I have been helping her get started and all
is going well. Her boyfriend happens to be a vet tech/ prevet major. He is chewing her up
one side and down the other over the raw food. He told her it will cause liver and kidney
failure and she is killing her pets. She has lots of info on the raw diet, benefits, getting
started ect. So far she is staying strong! Can anyone direct me to some articles that
grously describe what is in kibble? Thought if he read a convincing one maybe he would
back off of what she feeds her pets. I know they are there but I can't find them know that I
need them! Any other suggestions would be apprectiated. Felicia

Hi Felicia,

Well for starters, here's two mainstream articles which don't come from a raw food
perspective, but sure are good gross-outs!

here's a link to an article from the Los Angeles Times about how euthanized dogs and
cats' bodies end up in pet food:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0106-03.htm

My, uh, favorite part of this article is:

"The Food and Drug Administration has found "very, very low levels" of sodium
pentobarbital--the chemical used to euthanize animals--in some brands of dog food, said
Stephen Sundloff, director of the FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine. The agency is
investigating whether the traces are "of any significance at all," Sundloff said."

I'd like to know what they consider significance...

here's a link to a recent article from the very mainstream New York Times which shows
how the "science" behind the pet food industry seems focused on finding the cheapest/
highest profit-margin ingredients that won't immediately kill the animals its fed to, and
the article specifically points out, that the formulas are primarily geared towards making
predictable poops:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/magazine/02pet-t.html?
_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Again, the writer of this article is pretty ignorant of the fact that many people forgo the
whole industry and serve raw and home-made food, but nonetheless, it makes some very
interesting points and illustrates some pretty egregious facts.

And lastly, here's an article by a vet who was a USDA meat inspector before becoming a
small animal vet:
http://www.belfield.com/article3.html

he starts his article thus:
"Which commercial pet food do I recommend? That's the one question I am asked most
frequently in my practice. My standard answer is "none." But let me clarify. There is no
government agency setting quality standards and guidelines, so there are no assurances of
quality in pet food."

and the vet-tech student boyfriend should get this paragraph read out loud to him:

"I have been practicing small animal medicine for more than 30 years. Every day I have
seen the casualties of the propaganda by the pet food industry. Yet the professors in the
teaching institutions of veterinary medicine generally support an industry that has little
regard for the quality of health in our companion animals. The question has never been
whether or not pets are contracting diseases from pet food, but rather, what is the status
of our pets' health when they are fed a steady diet of toxic chemicals?"

I know you said your friend already has a lot of info pro-raw, make sure she also knows
about the yahoo group Raw Meaty Bones, which also has in its members files testimonials
from individuals documenting how long they've been feeding raw and why--often curing
some disease in the process, often with great superiority to some vet-prescribed
commercial food.

Good luck!

Sarah
with supervision from felidae Henry & Ivan and mustelidae Quercus & Ilex

---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "never_connected"
<never_connected@...> wrote:
>
> I've found that my dog with teeth problems and 2 of my cats do best
> with wings especially but can/will only eat them if they
> are crushed.

I think "do best" is in the eye of the beholder. I haven't seen a
carnovre that couldn't eat a chicken wing. They may prefer you
smash them up to make it easier but you aren't doing them a favor by
doing so.

If it were my animals, I would have to absolutely beyond a shadow of
a doubt be completely positive they could not get any nurishment
without me smashing before I would do so.

> So any suggestions how to do this or what to use so it's faster and
> easier?

Yes, It's much easier and faster if you don't do it at all. My
strong suspicion is that your animals have you trained very
well. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:24 pm ((PDT))

> So any suggestions how to do this or what to use so it's faster and
> easier? And yes, I tried running them over with my car and it didn't
> work lol.

Run them over with your car.

Seriously, what I would try is putting them between 2 hardwood boards,
(meat in the middle) and running your car over it (the boards) if you
want to use the car smash approach. I bet that will work well since
you will have the hard flat surface of the 2 boards pressing against
the meat and bones.

Otherwise, just use a kitchen mallet and cover it with a couple pieces
of plastic wrap or bags and beat it on the counter.

jamie

Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: How can I crush bones but NOT grind them ?
Posted by: "never_connected" never_connected@yahoo.com never_connected
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

> Seriously, what I would try is putting them between 2 hardwood boards,
> (meat in the middle) and running your car over it (the boards) if you
> want to use the car smash approach. I bet that will work well since
> you will have the hard flat surface of the 2 boards pressing against
> the meat and bones.

thanks.. already tried running them over but haven't tried it this way..

> Otherwise, just use a kitchen mallet and cover it with a couple pieces
> of plastic wrap or bags and beat it on the counter.
>
> jamie
>

Any particular mallet? I was using a rubber one from Home Depot and
the thing sucks. I was going to just buy a metal one. lol.

Jen

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

I used to use them, but as the pups' jaw strength increased the bully
sticks lasted a shorter and shorter amount of time. Eventually it just
wasn't cost effective to spend $12 for two minutes of fun.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Kathie Middlemiss <geekgirl717@...>
wrote:

> Anyone use bully sticks?

Messages in this topic (4)
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6.1. Re: Fasting
Posted by: "Roseann" rgabrys@wyan.org gaiabreeze
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

Roseann wrote:
I'm off to meet the meat manager at Kroger
> today to see about any outdated meat... I'm really anxious to start
> introducing some variety. So far, she's only had chicken.
> Roseann and Mecka the 2yr old Great Dane

And home again. The store assistant manager said they have to return
all meat to their headquarters since they have serious liability issues.
Of course, the meat department didn't know that's the policy and I
have no doubt they do "throw it away" rather than shipping it back to
anywhere. Either way, I did grab a pack of pork country ribs off of the
super sale shelf. Personally, I don't eat mammals so I'm not sure what
constitutes "country ribs" but there doesn't seem to be much bone in the
package.
Roseann answering her own posts

Messages in this topic (40)
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7a. Re: my visit to the vet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:22 pm ((PDT))

You know, it's really a shame vets can't even recall what they were taught
in college.....Merck, which is the veterinary Bible, states......

"The carbohydrates added to pet foods are mainly in the form of
polysaccharides (starch and cellulose), disaccharides (sucrose and lactose),
and monosaccharides (glucose and fructose). Carbohydrates are a less
expensive source of energy than fat or protein. In dogs, there appears to be
no dietary requirement for carbohydrate."

I realize they don't get any useful nutritional education and are clueless
and fearful when it comes to feeding raw, but they *could* as least stick to
the facts, couldn't they?????

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "esmolensky" <esmolensky@yahoo.com>

She then asked my what I fed him. I told her he is on a
raw diet. As soon as I said that she started huffing and
puffing(literally)
to a point that she was breathing hard, I acually thought she was
going to have a heart attack in front of me. She steeped out of the
room to get a glass of water and came back giving me the whole shpiel
on a balanced diet, the extreme need for carbs and of course
salmonella bacterias.

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Newbie predator question
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi, cleone!
Yes, dogs can revert to their basic instincts if allowed to
'pack up' and are not given the proper training or supervision.

The story you related below happened because the OWNERS didn't take
their responsibilities seriously and provided NO training and NO
management of the dogs in their care.

Not allowing a dog to roam freely on its own, keeping it on lead if
its not dependably responsive to cues and training a really reliable
recall are a few of the obligations people take on when they accept
ownership of a dog.

Abrogating that responsibility and leaving a dog to its own devices is
a sure way to get it killed.

Sublimating prey drive in dogs and directing that drive into
acceptable outlets is something EVERY dog owner should be doing from
puppyhood on. Its not a raw thing, its a dog thing.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> You wrote that if a dog is well-fed it would probably not kill. The
truth is
> dogs are dogs and given a pack mentality and prey instinct, they
can and
> will hunt and kill. We lived adjacent to a cattle ranch in Sourhtern
California
> and calves were being killed. The rancher assumed it was coyotes. He
started
> posting watches and it turned out to be a 'pack' of local dogs, all
house
> pets, all well-fed on kibble diets, who were allowed to roam free.
They formed
> their own little pack and when seeing the cattle, gave chase and
brought down
> the young calves. Unfortunately all the dogs were destroyed , as
well as any
> other dog that wandered innocently onto the ranch property. But it had
> nothing to do with being fed kibble vs raw, it had to do with being
dogs.

Messages in this topic (6)
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9a. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Meredith!
Here's some suggestions to get your little guy started
eating raw;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758
Message #130758
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134336
Message #134336

I don't recommend leaving her food out for an hour or more, if she
isn't eating it - no worries about salmonella, tho'.

Have you done any reading in the files and archives about starting raw
feeding?
These links can help you get started. Print them out if you want;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

TC and let us know how you progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> How long should I wait for my toy dog to eat this chicken? Is there a
> time Limit? Can she get salmonella poisoning after an hour or 2, I
> really have no clue.
>
> Thanks in Advance!
> Meredith

Messages in this topic (7)
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9b. Re: Time Limit? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Meredith Soriano" mom2mytwinz@yahoo.com mom2mytwinz
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:49 pm ((PDT))

That was very helpful...Thank you so much!!

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote: Hi, Meredith!
Here's some suggestions to get your little guy started
eating raw;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758
Message #130758
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134336
Message #134336

I don't recommend leaving her food out for an hour or more, if she
isn't eating it - no worries about salmonella, tho'.

Have you done any reading in the files and archives about starting raw
feeding?
These links can help you get started. Print them out if you want;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

TC and let us know how you progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> How long should I wait for my toy dog to eat this chicken? Is there a
> time Limit? Can she get salmonella poisoning after an hour or 2, I
> really have no clue.
>
> Thanks in Advance!
> Meredith

"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

Meredith

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Re: Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:49 pm ((PDT))

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 07:39:38 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>yes, I'm saying she carries the WHOLE thigh around the house....=]

I'm afraid I'm lazy and my Silkys tend to be terriers to the core...
Every day at noon I crate them with their meals for a couple of hours
while I do other stuff, then I let them out. If it doesn't get eaten
during that time, I take appropriate action (no matter WHAT food I am
giving them!). If I tried to feed them out of their crates, I'd have
food possession issues - I work at home during the day, I don't have
time or inclination to deal with it.

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (7)
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10b. Re: Is This Natuutal? (MEREDITH)
Posted by: "Meredith Soriano" mom2mytwinz@yahoo.com mom2mytwinz
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:49 pm ((PDT))

I don't think she likes chicken......she won't touch it now, maybe because I gave her some beef today, she killed that!! I'll stop with the beef and wait for her to come around with the chicken, I hope she eats it.....

Roseann <rgabrys@wyan.org> wrote: Meredith Soriano wrote:
>
>
> yes, I'm saying she carries the WHOLE thigh around the house....=]

I stand in the kitchen doorway so that my Great Dane doesn't drag her
food off to the living room. She still tries to get by me but no way is
she munching her raw food on the sofa! I thought about bringing her big
pillow into the kitchen in case she wanted to lay down and spend some
time with her bones (so far only chicken) but I can't imagine how I'd
clean the pillow up afterwards.
Roseann and Mecka the wanderer

"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

Meredith

---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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11. Naturally "processed" food
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

I had to laugh thinking about all the things we start to worry about
our dogs eating... I have both dogs and ducks. When I bring my dogs
into the house for their meal, I turn the ducks out in the big back
yard to graze a bit. Later, I put them up and let the dogs back out.

It would seem that my dogs DO like to eat "processed" vegetable matter
after all! Ewwww!

Seriously, I have to wonder if wolves or dogs in the wild eat all the
poop that domestic dogs do? My dogs have always wanted to eat pretty
much any sort of poop they could get, is this part of a "natural" diet
for a dog? Is there any research out there about that?

Sorry if this is off topic, but I want to find out what you all know
about natural doggie diets. :)

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: quarters turn into thighs and drumsticks
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 2:07 pm ((PDT))

Dr. I would like your permission to ad this post to my web site's
information section.

May I please have your approval.

Thank you

Kevin Brown
www.guardiansbythesea.com

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Roseann <rgabrys@> wrote:
> >
> > So, if I give my Great Dane a quarter, she just snaps it in
> > half and
> > chomps the bones into pencil sharp pieces (I've seen those
> > pieces in a
> > morning reject/barf 12 hours after she had dinner) then
swallows.
>
> A couple of things here. First, you are equating dog chewing with
> human chewing. They are entirely different processes. Humans chew
> food into a mush before swallowing. Human digestion begins in the
> mouth. Dogs mearly crunch bones and meat into something small
> enough to fit down the throat. Some real big pices can fit down a
> big dog's throat. Dog digestion begins in the stomach.
>
> Second, those "sharp" pieces are not as sharp as they look. Also
> dog's "innards" are much tougher than you give them credit for.
>
> > To
> > me, it seems as though cutting the quarter for her would allo
> > her to
> > chew up the smaller pieces more and reduce the size of the
> > bones before
> > she swallows them.
>
> Your thinking is backward here. If you give a big dog smaller
> pieces they just swallow them whole with no chewing. My Danes have
> stolen the cat's chicken drumstick several times and never chomp
one
> time. It just goes in the mouth nnd down the throat. It has hever
> hurt them. There has never been any adverse consequences but they
> need to chew for dental hygene.
>
> > Don't big dogs consume the entire thing, bones and
> > all?
>
> Yep
>
> > I find the same to be true with backs--bigger pieces
> > get swallowed
> > in bigger hunks vs smaller chunks get more chewing. I'm
> > kinda confused...
>
> Heh heh, yes you are. Dogs CAN and usually do swallow pieces large
> enough to kill a human. Its the difference in how their digestive
> system is designed. Smaller pieces don't need chewing and won't
get
> chewed. Great Danes (I have 2 of them) can easily swallow
something
> almost as large as your fist. I often feed my dogs big chunks of
> beef heart from my hand that don't get chewed. Just straight down
> the chute.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Messages in this topic (13)
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12b. Re: quarters turn into thighs and drumsticks
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi Roseann,

Perhaps your dog is an anomaly (they all are in some ways!), but this
isn't usually how things go with my dog. How long have you been
rawfeeding and have you tried large vs. small items to compare? You
might want to go even bigger to see what happens (like 1/2 a
chicken). If she's a newbie, she's probably quite excited about this
new food and she also may just need time to figure out how to eat
it. She'll probably slow down in time (mine has), too.

It sounds like she is breaking the bones down a bit, and again, if
she's new, it's fairly common to have some undigested bone vomits.
This will improve, as well.

One thought, though--my dog (20 lb. Boston) will swallow pretty big
pieces of something like a chicken back, I think because the bones
are so small he might not be able to sense them as well (then again,
they don't need as much breaking down, either). He chomps bigger
bones very well (like pork/lamb necks, goat legs/shoulders/ribs).
Just something to experiment with...

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Roseann <rgabrys@...> wrote:
I find the same to be true with backs--bigger pieces get swallowed
> in bigger hunks vs smaller chunks get more chewing.

Messages in this topic (13)
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13a. Re: List on Freecycle
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 2:44 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carole!
You got a lot of good advice from others on the list, so I
just have a few points to make.

1) As long as you are cautious and use your common sense to suss out
and eliminate problems in advance, you and your dog should be fine
using craigslist and Freecycle. Or even your local 'swapper' paper.

2) Some people are *fanatics* about their own 'flavor' of raw feeding,
and are very rigid, narrow and inflexible in their belief system, and
want to foist it on others.

3) She may have been a dealer, of B.A.R.F. or another prepackaged
processed raw brand and trying to take that opportunity to sell you on it.

My advice? Take the experience and put it into perspective, learn from
it and continue to try to find good cheap or free sources of raw for
your dogs.
TC
Giselle

> Okay, I have read here several times that a good place to score meat
> was place an ad on Freecycle and/or craigslist and ask for freezer
> burned meat and meat scrap from hunters. I placed an ad this
> morning and immediately received a response from someone who advised
> me as follows:
<snip>
> I am aware there are all kinds of people walking around in this
> world but I think basically people are decent and that something
> adverse happening would be quite remote. I'm just kind of gun shy
> about the whole thing now and would like some experiences. Thanks!
>
> Carole (Mom of 2 Greyhounds and 2 Italian Greys)

Messages in this topic (7)
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14. Urinary Question
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

My younger OEM pup - is not actually on raw yet. I was waiting till
17 weeks old. Only because I used that date to switch my older OEM
pup and we had no problems.

The younger pup "Georgeanne" has sneaked away a bit here and a bit
there. Mostly has gotten her paws and teeth on pig feet and pork
neck bone.

I have been seperating the two when the older one "Baby" feeds.

This morning, Georgeanne began unirinating just about a tablespoon
full, so I started keeping an eye on her.

She walks around the place and stops every 30 seconds or so dropping
a tablespoon here, a tablespoon there. She will do this for about
three to 5 times and then resume normal activities.

She has only been here since Saturday. She was on well water on a
farm for 15 weeks before coming to the big city. I am figuring that
the change in enviorment, water, food stress. The urine is clear and
has no odor.

Other than that she is fine.

I got her on cranberry bladder stuff, just to be on the safe side.

any comments, advise or suggestions would be appreciated.

Kevin Brown
The Jersey Shore

Messages in this topic (1)
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15. swallowed wing bone
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

Spencer, my hoover dog of avocado pit fame, inhaled the thick end of a
chicken wing...whole. Hasn't pooped yet today and now I'm scared it's in there
blocking things (along with the avocado pit remains...sigh...which seem to have
been coming through bit by bit). He seems fine (as usual) in terms of
appetite, energy, sleep, play, etc. but drinking a little extra again.

I guess I just wait and watch, yes? I usually don't do the wings, but he's
been go good about crunching everything lately I thought it would be ok.

??

Carol

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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