[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12118

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Pork neck whole?
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Pork neck whole?
From: katkellm
1c. Re: Pork neck whole?
From: carnesbill
1d. Re: Pork neck whole?
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Some thoughts/questions
From: Andrea
2b. Re: Some thoughts/questions
From: carnesbill
2c. Re: Some thoughts/questions
From: costrowski75

3.1. Re: Newbie questions
From: katkellm
3.2. Re: Newbie questions
From: carnesbill

4a. Ground beef
From: Carol Dunster

5a. Newbie here with a question
From: jennifer_hell
5b. Re: Newbie here with a question
From: costrowski75

6a. Predator behavior
From: Carol Dunster
6b. Re: Predator behavior
From: Michelle LaFay
6c. Re: Predator behavior
From: carnesbill
6d. Re: Predator behavior
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Diabetic Diet
From: bonniepunch

8. Hello....I'm a Newbie!!
From: Meredith

9a. Re: Question about feeding RMB
From: costrowski75

10a. Puppy Scare
From: janandshelby
10b. Re: Puppy Scare
From: Laura Atkinson
10c. Re: Puppy Scare
From: Andrea

11a. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
From: Jen S

12. Raw and ethical/animal cruelty concerns
From: girlndocs

13. Wolf goes fishing for salmon
From: basilbourque

Messages
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1a. Re: Pork neck whole?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

It is really the cut up necks that are a big no. A whole neck is ok,
but it isn't really meaty so you'll need to add more meat. As far as
boneless meat you should try even bigger. Big pieces mean the dog
physically can't get it down his throat so he *has* to tear it
apart. Try a boston butt pork roast or a pork shoulder and see how
that goes.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> I just found out I can get pork necks whole from the local
> market. But I think I read something this week on the list about
> NOT feeding neck bones??
> This is for a 25-lb cocker. He does chicken necks fine. The only
> problem I've had with him is with boneless meat. He can't tear
> and won't touch it, so he's tried to kind of chew it down and then
> gulp it whole and almost choked twice. I tried larger cuts and
> it's the same so I cut the soft meat/organs into reasonably sized
> pieces.

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Pork neck whole?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 7:09 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> I just found out I can get pork necks whole from the local market.
But I
> think I read something this week on the list about NOT feeding neck
bones??

Hi Carol,
Whole pork necks are great to feed. The concern over pork necks is not
the bone itself but that most of the time the ones that you can buy in
the grocery store are cut up and have bone pieces that are way too
small for larger dogs. KathyM

Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: Pork neck whole?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> But I
> think I read something this week on the list about NOT
> feeding neck bones??

That is because most of the pork neck bones you find in the store
have practically no meat and they have sharp edges from being cut.
If you have the whole neck, go for it.

> He can't tear and won't touch it, so
> he's tried to kind of chew it down and then gulp it whole
> and almost choked twice.

I bet you are using the term "almost choked" using human terms of
choking. It is pretty common for a dog to swallow something,
realize it's too big and bring it back up to chew a little more
before swallowing again. This CAN be interpeted as choking when he
is bringing it back up. Dog's don't chew in the same manner as
humans.

> I tried larger cuts and it's the same so I cut the
> soft meat/organs into reasonably sized pieces.

Just give him one huge piece and he'll be ok. Sounds like he knows
what he's doing. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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1d. Re: Pork neck whole?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:19 am ((PDT))

Cdandp2@... wrote:>
> I just found out I can get pork necks whole from the local
market. But I
> think I read something this week on the list about NOT feeding
neck bones??
*****
Any time a body part is called a "blahblah BONE" there's a darn good
chance it's a bone with some meat stuck to it. These would be
typical of "by the case" pork necks, which unless your market
butchers its own pork would be how the necks are acquired. This
would not be my choice for a "meaty bone".

If however they are whole and wonderfully meaty, like a bone-in roast
where you cannot easily determine the bone structure beneath the
meat, buy them and do a happy dance.

You may want to check out http://rawfeddogs.com for some pork neck
views. First click on "recipes", then scroll down to "pork neck
bones". These photos may help you decide.

Some people do feed pork neck BONES but add meat to compensate for
the neck bone's dire meatlessness. And some offer the meatless
wonders at one meal and plain old meat at the next. If you choose to
feed them, consider that your dog will be ingesting a lot of bone so
a. follow up with lots of meaty meals and b. don't be surprised by
white rock poops or perhaps difficult poops.

Me, I just pass 'em up.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Some thoughts/questions
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 7:09 am ((PDT))

"wolfwood53" <fiona_laidlaw@...> wrote:

> I have also stopped giving him his supplements (Vit C, B complex,
> Yeast, Kelp and Cod Liver Oil) as I think he shouldnt need these if
> the diet is adequate.

Yes, that is correct.

> in the wild, they would eat fur, eyeballs, brains, etc. Might
> these type of things not contain something important that they will
> not get by eating just meat and bone alone?

Don't forget organs, those are important too! The way I look at it,
I might not be able to feed a sheep's head every other month, but I
do feed whole fish, whole chickens (with head & feet), and whole
rabbits when I can get them. This is one of the reasons that we try
so hard to put variety in the diet, to cover all the bases. If you
really wanted to you could look up the nutrient profiles of eyeballs
and brain and put your mind at ease.

> I also really struggle to get him to eat liver.

Unfortunately, liver is one of those areas that give lots of people
headaches, and you can't just not feed liver, it's too dense in
nutrients. If you allow him to not eat organs, you will be missing
vitamins and minerals in his diet. Sounds like you have tried lots
of things already. I've never tried this but it just might work:
Cut a deep slit in some meaty meat and stuff the organ inside it,
wrap up the whole thing and freeze it for a little while so he can't
pick the organ out. Maybe it works? Other than weird stuff like
that, it sounds like it is time for tough love for this one. Offer a
tiny bit of organ before his meal, and if he doesn't eat the organ he
doesn't get the rest of the food. Refusing all organ is not an
option.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Some thoughts/questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 7:37 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "wolfwood53" <fiona_laidlaw@...>
wrote:
>
> I have
> also stopped giving him his supplements (Vit C, B complex,
> Yeast, Kelp
> and Cod Liver Oil) as I think he shouldnt need these if the
> diet is
> adequate.

I agree

> Firstly, in
> the wild, they would eat fur, eyeballs, brains, etc. Might
> these type
> of things not contain something important that they will not
> get by
> eating just meat and bone alone?

Nope ... most of us don't feed those things ever. It's not "meat
and bone alone", it's meat, bone, AND ORGANS.

> I also really struggle to get him to eat liver.

Keep trying. You will find a method. I mix my dog's liver in a
combo of fish, beef heart, and raw eggs. Begin with a very very
small amount of liver and gradually increase the amount over time.

You might also demand he eat a small glob of liver before you give
him his regular meal. He must eat the liver to get the meal. Let
it be a very small amount in the beginning.

> What is the consequence for the dog if not consuming
> liver/organ meat?

Liver/organ meat is important but not in large amounts. I feed my
dogs a glob of liver once or twice a week in addition to or mixed in
with their regular meals.

> This means that it is really difficult to
> get things like heads etc.

I wouldn't be concerned about that. Again, almost none of us feeds
heads, etc except maybe for the occasional whole rabbit.

> So basically he gets what we can afford eg chicken
> quarters, pork ribs, ox-tail, lamb chops, pork chops,
> etc. Probably not enough meat by your ratios?

I don't concern myself with ratios. If you want to feed more meat,
perhaps you could find some pork shoulder roasts occasionally at a
good price or beef roasts or even feed some ground beef or ground
turkey once in a while.

> I am in the process of (hopefully)
> acquiring some intact (fur on) rabbits from someone. He also
> has the
> odd mouse when he catches one.

Cool. My dogs sometimes will catch a wild rabbit or squirrel.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: Some thoughts/questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 10:30 am ((PDT))

"wolfwood53" <fiona_laidlaw@...> wrote:
I have
> also stopped giving him his supplements (Vit C, B complex, Yeast,
Kelp
> and Cod Liver Oil) as I think he shouldnt need these if the diet is
> adequate.
*****
Yes, and even if the diet is sometimes less than adequate he doesn't
need them. It's often hard to "get" that nature gives us a lot of
time to get things right. And she give us wiggle room if we fall
short of "adequate".

Firstly, in
> the wild, they would eat fur, eyeballs, brains, etc. Might these
type
> of things not contain something important that they will not get by
> eating just meat and bone alone?
*****
With the exception of small critters (which do not comprise much of
the long term diet) wolves only occasionally get a crack at brains
and eyeballs since there's usually but one head per kill. I'd wager
most ungulate heads ultimately go to smaller carnivores and
scavengers.

Fur of course is more likely to happen, but what in C, B complex,
kelp, CLO and yeast delivers what fur does? Should you feel really
bothered by the lack of eyballs, brains and fur, a whole rabbit or a
few mice once in a while will take care of the problem.

I also really struggle to get him to eat liver.
*****
You are not alone. You do not have to fed it by itself and you do
not have to rely on beef liver. Chicken liver is fine. Lamb is
fine. Pork is fine.

I suggest you not give up the battle right yet, just scale down what
you would consider victory. An ounce of liver a day mixed into
chopped meat adds up to 30 ounces of liver a month which is plenty
for a large dog.

> What is the consequence for the dog if not consuming liver/organ
meat?
*****
I do believe it is way too early to be looking at worst case
scenarios. Liver, though not much is required, is essential. The
others can wait. For the purposes of raw feeding, heart is
considered a meat and I urge you to welcome it into your feeding plan.

> So basically he gets what we can afford eg chicken
> quarters, pork ribs, ox-tail, lamb chops, pork chops, etc.
Probably
> not enough meat by your ratios?
*****
I'd definitely like to see more meat on your shopping list.

I am in the process of (hopefully)
> acquiring some intact (fur on) rabbits from someone. He also has
the
> odd mouse when he catches one.
*****
Perfect.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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3.1. Re: Newbie questions
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 7:37 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" <rogers.christine@...>
wrote:
Does this sound
> appropriate, or should I be concerned??

Hi Christine,
It sounds to me like your dogs are doing a great job of eating their
food, in fact i'd give them an A for newbie doggie skills. You always
have to remember that since dogs don't chew their food like people do,
its easy to perceive the way they eat as inappropriate when in fact
its the correct way for a dog. As far as the bm goes, if they are
acting fine and aren't straining to go, i think you're ok there, too.
Since you want to stick with chicken for week or so, you might want
to switch to chicken breasts for a couple of feedings. Since they
have less and easier to eat bone, you can decrease the amount of bone
you are feeding that way. You can also cut an appropriately sized
chicken in half and that way the girls will get to eat through a whole
chicken with some of the organ bits attached to it. KathyM

Messages in this topic (40)
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3.2. Re: Newbie questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Christine"
<rogers.christine@...> wrote:
>
> The switch was done 3 days ago(I'm probably just
> worrying too much) and they have had no BM's in that time,
> other than
> a very small pellet size this morning. Is this a normal
> reaction when
> switching from k^**%e to raw?

Yep, you are going to be amazed at how small the poops are from here
on out. It's the kibble poop that is artificially large because of
all the undigestable filler contained in it.

> Does this sound
> appropriate, or should I be concerned??

No reason to be concerned. Relax. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (40)
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4a. Ground beef
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

I was wondering what the take was on using a quality low fat ground
beef at times would be? I've been holding back on switching the dogs,
because I just won't be anywhere to buy meat now for weeks, but I do
have a few things and a lot of ground beef I could easily share with
the dogs. I'll be buying a quarter of a beef again the first of next
month that I can share with them anyway.
~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (16)
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5a. Newbie here with a question
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

Hello everybody,
I cannot get everything I want here where we live. Here's what I will
be able to get in the next couple of months:
Chicken:
carcasses, heart, stomach, liver
Turkey:
carcasses, necks
Lamb:
heart, liver, lungs, part of the stomach,ribs, spine.
Would I be okay with feeding chicken carcasse, heart and stomach for
the first week and go on from there? Any advice? Our dog is a 8 y o
pitbull girl, with arthritis and spondylosis.
Thank you for any input!

Jennifer with Mandy from Germany

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Newbie here with a question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:25 am ((PDT))

"jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...> wrote:
Here's what I will
> be able to get in the next couple of months:
> Chicken:
> carcasses, heart, stomach, liver
> Turkey:
> carcasses, necks
> Lamb:
> heart, liver, lungs, part of the stomach,ribs, spine.
*****
This would be a great list if it included more meat and less bone. But
since you have access to heart, feed lots and lots of it. Heart is
considered meat in a raw diet.

Introduce critter variety gently; you can be more forthright with body
part variety though. Liver and lungs are likely to produce looser
stools than you may be ready to cope with.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Predator behavior
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:20 am ((PDT))

I was talking with a friend about feeding raw and he said that he
wouldn't be comfortable doing that because he has two 95 lb dogs and
livestock. He said that he couldn't be sure that, having been eating
raw meat, they wouldn't go for his livestock - esp. if one of them
were bleeding. What is everyone's experience on that?

I could see the concern with dogs that large, they could kill his
goats all too easily.

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Predator behavior
Posted by: "Michelle LaFay" mblafay@gmail.com mblafay
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:46 am ((PDT))

Here is the same response I sent last time this came up -

Our dogs eat lots of chicken and all are just fine with our free range
chickens. We do have to be careful feeding the dogs while the chickens are
out because....the chickens have been known to take the food from the dogs.
My border collie gets all discombobulated if the chickens get anywhere near
her while she's eating, she hunkers down and doesn't know whether to try to
bolt the food (something she never does), run with it or just plain run (the
first time she did just say screw the food and ran for her life, leaving the
two hens to fight over her leg quarter). I actually had to rescue the
chi/dachsie one day. Three hens and the rooster had her cornered and she was
screaming bloody murder. The boys (mini schnauzer and an azawakh) ignore
them while eating pretty good, just take their food to another spot if they
get to close. The bc does think she is supposed to herd the chickens around
but other than that none of them bother the chickens at all and they are out
with them for several hours a day.

On 10/4/07, Carol Dunster <cedunster@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
> I was talking with a friend about feeding raw and he said that he
> wouldn't be comfortable doing that because he has two 95 lb dogs and
> livestock. He said that he couldn't be sure that, having been eating
> raw meat, they wouldn't go for his livestock - esp. if one of them
> were bleeding. What is everyone's experience on that?
>
> I could see the concern with dogs that large, they could kill his
> goats all too easily.
>
> ~ Carol
>
>
>

--
Michelle - The Future Mrs Foley!
mblafay@gmail.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: Predator behavior
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Dunster <cedunster@...> wrote:
>
> He said that he couldn't be sure that, having been eating
> raw meat, they wouldn't go for his livestock - esp. if one of them
> were bleeding. What is everyone's experience on that?

We hear that a couple of times a week, every week. It just doesn't
happen. Kibble fed dogs kill animals sometimes and so do raw fed dogs
sometimes. Diet has no bearing on it. It's prey drive.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: Predator behavior
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

Carol Dunster <cedunster@...> wrote:
>
> I was talking with a friend about feeding raw and he said that he
> wouldn't be comfortable doing that because he has two 95 lb dogs and
> livestock. He said that he couldn't be sure that, having been eating
> raw meat, they wouldn't go for his livestock - esp. if one of them
> were bleeding. What is everyone's experience on that?
*****
Mythology plain and simple.
There is a big disconnect between food in a bowl and a food on the
hoof. What induces a dog to chase is action, not diet. If the dogs
were not inclined to chase livestock when fed kibble, they will not
chase livestock on a raw diet. If the dogs were unruly and untrained
when fed kibble, they will continue to be unruly and untrained.

If you browse the archives you will find countless posts that put paid
to the notion that raw food creates blood lust. It just don't happen
that way.
Chris O

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7a. Re: Diabetic Diet
Posted by: "bonniepunch" bonniepunch@gmail.com bonniepunch
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:21 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, DJagodzinski21@... wrote:
>
> My 9 year old Rottie/Lab was diagnosed tonight with being a
diabetic. The
> vet wants to put him on a prescription diet. I don't want to do
that. Can he
> be on a raw diet? What can he eat?
>

I have a diabetic cat (type 2). The vet put him on a special kibble
diet and he became a bit more controlled, but still had high blood
glucose levels. The food contained corn, which he was allergic to, so
I knew he couldn't eat that for long. I began the research that
eventually led me to raw feeding. Since I switched him to raw food, he
has been completely controlled and he currently needs no insulin. I
believe type 1 diabetes is the more common sort in dogs, while type 2
is more common in cats - your dog may not be as successful as my cat
was if he has type 1 diabetes. If your dog has any pancreatic function
left at all then switching to raw will ultimately have a positive
effect on his blood glucose (BG) levels. If his pancreas is completely
dead, then raw might not help with his BG levels, but the healthier
diet will benefit him in other ways.

One thing to watch for: In some diabetic animals a switch to raw can
cause an increase in the BG levels. This happened to my cat, and I had
to back off on the raw and reintroduce it slowly. I don't know why
this happens, but maybe because the animal's body is so used to
functioning with a high BG level, the liver panics and created more
glucose to keep the BG level at or near the level the body has become
used to (as I said, I'm guessing here at the cause). If this happens
to you, just take your time and spread the transition out over a few
weeks, giving 1/4 raw the first week, then 1/2 the second, then 3/4.

BG

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8. Hello....I'm a Newbie!!
Posted by: "Meredith" mom2mytwinz@yahoo.com mom2mytwinz
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:46 am ((PDT))

Oh, I'm so glad about this group and I have tons of questions.....but
first, my name is Meredith and I live in Eustis, FL with my husband and
identical twin girls...
Now my dog....she is a chi-poo (chihuahua-poole mix) almost 9 months
old and about 4-6 lbs, I put a photo of her in photo's. I'm starting
her out on raw chicken for the first time and she looks at me like I'm
nuts!!

How much chicken a day should she eat?

Should it be completely thawed out or can it be a bit frozen (I live in
florida...its hot here) LOL

Any feedback would be wonderful, for I am just starting out.
OH.....does RAW feeding include raw veggies too? If so, which kind?

Thanks for all your input.

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9a. Re: Question about feeding RMB
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 9:12 am ((PDT))

Stephanie Bowers <sfbowers@...> wrote:>

> I'm a little confused about feeding RMBs.
*****
That's probably because the term is both vague and misleading. Don't
worry about not getting up close and personal with the term. Think
body parts.

Some will be meaty bones, some will be bony, and some--much of what
you buy--will have no bones at all. When you shop for body part
variety as well as protein variety, you will not have a problem.
This means don't choose turkey necks as your sole turkey purchase,
fed as much turkey variety as you can. Don't get stuck with chicken
necks or wings or backs at the expense of the other chicken parts.
Don't settle for just pork neck bones when there's the whole rest of
the pig to try.

how do you
> know how much bone to give?
*****
The guideline is there not to stymy you but to point you in the
general direction. Ten cent of ANYTHING is not very much, right? So
rather than trying to figure out how the heck to determine 10% of the
diet, just know that you don't have to feed very much edible bone.
THAT'S what that ratio means:

Not very much edible bone.
Not very much organ meat (liver, kidney, spleen, glands).
A whole heckuva lot of meat (flesh, fat, skin, connective tissue).

--If you think you are feeding more bone than your dog needs, you
probably are.
--You can hardly ever go wrong feeding more meat.

If I'm feeding a RMB, how do I determine
> how much is meat and how much bone?
*****
Don't worry about the numbers, worry about the appearance. Meat
rules. It should rule the body part, it definitely should rule the
menu. Again, don't think RMB. You will almost always feed too much
bone if you buy things called "bone."

And Does the meat on the RMB count
> towards the muscle meat?
*****
Of course.
Meat is meat is meat. I mean, the term "RMB" is pretty vague, but
even it identifies meat as part of the equation. Maybe it will help
if you think "meat with bone somewhere IN it" as opposed to "bone
with some meat stuck ON it".

I'm sorry if I'm confusing anyone,
*****
You are only confusing yourself, and you've done a bang-up job of
it. Go outside, take a walk, kiss your dog, tell her what a fine
wolf she is. Breathe.

>I just want to make sure that over time
> Medina's diet is balanced.
*****
"Balance" is a word that greatly benefits the processed food
industry. Ma Nature has made superior nutrition easy by putting
everything a wolf/dog needs in one package: prey animals. If you
feed a variety of body parts from a variety of prey animals, you got
yourself balance.
Chris O

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10a. Puppy Scare
Posted by: "janandshelby" janandshelby@cox.net janandshelby
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 9:16 am ((PDT))

Hello Friends. I have been raw feeding my terriers since they were about a year old
(they're almost five). I acquired a new puppy a couple of months ago, and I immediately
put her on a raw diet.

All went well. Then, on vacation (away from the list and our homeopath,) she (at five
months old) CHOWED down a chicken thigh. Results were both poop and vomit. I wasn't
particularly concerned; however, in the morning, she refused both water and food, and
was obviously NOT WELL. My first fear was dehydration.

As we were away from home, I was FRANTIC to be sure she was OK. Took her to vet who
was on site at the dog show we were attending, and, with excellent care, including
immediate hydration, x-rays, etc., we discovered that she had several pieces of VERY
SHARP bone shards in her tummy.

End Result. EXCELLENT VETERINARY CARE; endoscopically removed bone shards from her
tummy. I have to assume this was "operator error"; i.e., I should have been doing
something other than what I was doing. (She previously handled chicken thighs with
ease).

The veterinarian had no criticism with raw, but did suggest that we stick to chicken backs
and necks for her "bone" percentage while she is so young, as they are more digestible.
Opinions please. (By the way, contrary to what I've read on the list(s), I'm using a meat
tenderizer to pound the heck out of the bones I'm giving her now.)

This veterinarian was supportive (and well educated) of raw feeding, but I remain both
confused and surprised that a thigh bone was troublesome for a five month old terrier
( approximately 6 lbs).

I have to say that watching her remarkable improvement with special wet diet for GI tract
for two weeks, then a slow re- introduction of raw, had me questioning my decision to
feed raw, and am extremely anxious now about how she should be fed.

I think that everyone on this list operates on what we feel is best for our pets, but
although I generally prefer to avoid the allopathic route, I thank God for the care she
received, as I feel this situation was potentially life threatening.

I'm hearing a lot of "I told you so"s from friends and family that I've tried to convert to raw,
believe me. Guess I'm needing both reassurance and further advice. I've lost my
confidence, and can't stand thinking I could be doing harm to my beloved pets.

Thank you. Jan S

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Puppy Scare
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:06 am ((PDT))

While I can't second guess what you did, because I wasn't there, here's what
I might have done differently:

1. Withold food for a meal or if necessary (some small dogs get
hypoglycemic) feed a very small amount of boneless meat.
2. Use subq fluids to make sure dehydration is not a problem.

Because, of course, there are bones in the gut. That's where they interact
with the stomach acid to be digested. If they'd bothered her, they'd have
sat there for a while, and eventually been pooped or horked up.

But I'm glad your puppy is OK.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Puppy Scare
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

Seems to me the pieces of bone in the x-ray were just the larger
pieces of bone from the thigh that hadn't digested just yet. They
might look scary, but I don't know how we should expect to see
anything different the morning after feeding a meal with bone in it.
I'm curious what an x-ray would reveal inside Tycho's stomach this
morning since he ate pork shoulder with bone last night. IME, if my
dogs eat a piece of bone that is too big to digest completely in a
reasonable amount of time they vomit it out later.

If you have been crushing the bone before feeding it stands to reason
that the dog's system wasn't ready for a large piece of bone to be
digested. When you say "chowed down" do you mean she swallowed it
whole or much faster than she normally would? Eating the whole thing
quickly often results in vomiting some of the food back up and
feeling crappy for a little while. I hope she's feeling better now,
and I'm glad you had such good and attentive care from the vet. I
can't help but think the vet might have overreacted with seeing the
bone in the stomach. Maybe some more info on what was different
about eating the thigh in the first place would help a little.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "janandshelby" <janandshelby@...>
wrote:

> she (at five months old) CHOWED down a chicken thigh. Results were
> both poop and vomit. I wasn't particularly concerned; however, in
> the morning, she refused both water and food, and was obviously NOT
> WELL.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
Posted by: "Jen S" jennilist@gmail.com bowiegirl1979
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 9:16 am ((PDT))

I'm in St. Louis and would love to get some free meat! Feel free to e-mail
me privately

Jen
jennilist@gmail.com

On 10/3/07, Pam Staley <pam@tlcnaturally.com> wrote:
>
> Is there a list or does anyone know of MO raw - feeders? I've found a
> source that can supply 500-1000lbs of free meat - hearts/livers/
> kidneys ect ect... need to spread it around :-)
>
> Pam
> Wright City, MO
>
>
>
> All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying
> on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated
> with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You
> agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal
> responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats,
> ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't
> agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
-Mahatma Gandhi

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

12. Raw and ethical/animal cruelty concerns
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

I sympathize entirely with those who are concerned or conflicted about
supporting the commercial meat industry by buying meat for their dogs.

The point has already been made on this list that by buying kibble we
would be supporting the exact same industry, only getting lower
quality and less appropriate food for our pets as a result of "selling
our souls".

I was reading at Rawfed.com today and found another reason for those
of us concerned about animal cruelty to not support the kibble
industry. Apparently the "nutrition" testing for new types of pet food
is horribly inhumane and involves keeping dogs and cats under
miserable conditions and feeding them a monotonous (and probably
wholly inadequate) diet to basically see if they die or not.

According to Rawfed:

"The animal testing for pet foods is unusually cruel, as demonstrated
by the recent charges brought against Iams/Eukanuba for animal
cruelty. Lock tester dogs in cages, feed them nothing but the same
food for 6 months, and see if they survive (oh wait, two dogs can die
during the trial but the food can still be marketed). If they do, then
the food is marketed as 100% complete and balanced for that life
stage, although the testing does not serve to examine long-term
nutritional relationships or long-term health or the relationship
between that food and disease."
http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal5.html#teeth

It seems to me like even with the animal cruelty involved in the
commercial meat industry, the weight of ethical consumerism comes out
on the side of raw feeding: raw feed and support an industry in which
animals for meat are treated inhumanely, or kibble feed and support
both an industry in which animals for meat *AND* animals used for
testing are treated inhumanely.

Those of us with a concern for ethical consumer choices should also
remember that buying kibble often supports businesses with unethical
practices. For example, Purina is owned by Nestle, and I personally
don't purchase any Nestle-owned products because of their hideous
violations of the WHO's code for formula marketing and general
sabotage of breastfeeding mothers in third-world countries.

In and of itself selling "pet food" is dishonest of these companies
because they're attempting to pull the wool over our eyes and make an
additional profit by re-selling us the waste from other divisions,
getting us to pay for byproducts and discards that we've already paid
for once in the form of the food products we buy.

Last but not least, there's environmental impact to consider, and the
more processed a food is, the more environmental impact it's made. I'm
aware of the many environmental sins of agribusiness but I choose
less-processed agribusiness meat over agribusiness meat that's been
raised, shipped once to the slaughterhouse, shipped again to the
food-producing plant, processed, shipped again to the pet-food plant,
processed once again, packaged and shipped yet again to distributing
centers and stores.

I hope this has been helpful and any thoughts are welcome.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

13. Wolf goes fishing for salmon
Posted by: "basilbourque" wildbasil@pobox.com basilbourque
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

Pictures of a wolf engaged in fishing for salmon in Alaska were published today in the Seattle
Times. Although rarely seen before, the wolf proved quite adept.

Article:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003923837_wolf04.html

Pictures:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/zoom/html/2003923838.html

So what's the deal about Pacific salmon being dangerous to dogs when fed raw?

--Basil Bourque

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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