[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12112

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: NEW to group, new 4 month old chocolate puppy/male , now already
From: Andrea
1b. Re: NEW to group, new 4 month old chocolate puppy/male , now already
From: carnesbill
1c. Re: NEW to group, new 4 month old chocolate puppy/male , now already
From: katkellm
1d. Re: NEW to group, new 4 month old chocolate puppy/male , now already
From: kaylsraven

2a. Size Appropriate Meaty Bones for Large Dogs
From: sjhansler
2b. Re: Size Appropriate Meaty Bones for Large Dogs
From: carnesbill
2c. Re: Size Appropriate Meaty Bones for Large Dogs
From: Margaret Martell
2d. Re: Size Appropriate Meaty Bones for Large Dogs
From: costrowski75

3a. Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Question}
From: aliciamyan
3b. Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Question}
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Salmon oil and other questions
From: Andrea
4b. Re: Salmon oil and other questions
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: More feeding amount, types, NEWBIE questions: Giant & small bree
From: Andrea
5b. Re: More feeding amount, types, NEWBIE questions: Giant & small bree
From: carnesbill

6.1. Re: Salmon Oil
From: costrowski75

7.1. Re: older dog (rescue- lack of teeth) and raw diet
From: costrowski75
7.2. Re: older dog (rescue- lack of teeth) and raw diet
From: T Smith

8a. Re: Deer Season
From: katkellm
8b. Re: Deer Season
From: Andrea
8c. Re: Deer Season
From: Tina Berry
8d. Re: Deer Season
From: Tina Berry

9a. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: Tina Berry

10. picking out bones
From: Felicia Kost

11. Tripe/Organs Questions
From: ncrnrgrl

12. Is my pup too small?
From: barbie4527

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: NEW to group, new 4 month old chocolate puppy/male , now already
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 6:45 am ((PDT))

If you haven't already switched to a raw diet, don't worry about "diet
foods" just yet. When you make the switch, feed the dog about 2% of
his expected ideal ADULT weight every day. After you get things going
well you can worry about the weight.

With a raw diet there isn't really a "diet" food, it's more a matter of
how much you feed the dog. Don't stay away from pork and beef just
because they are fatty, dogs need fat. Lots of pups and dogs trim up
right away when changed to a raw diet, so don't worry. Many dogs have
allergies to the grains and such in processed ki**le, so switching to
raw is a good idea for your itchy little pup.

Also, I don't go by how much a dog weighs to determine if he/she is
overweight. Look at the puppy, is he a roly poly pup? Puppies should
be kept trim for best health reguardless of how much the scale shows.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "beth" <bhscarlett@...> wrote:
>
> I need all the help and advise that I can get on his diet foods, and
> anyone's expertise and advise would greatly be appreciated. He is
> itchy and allergic, and nothing seems to help, please help me,, that
> is one of the main reasons that I have joined

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: NEW to group, new 4 month old chocolate puppy/male , now already
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 7:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "beth" <bhscarlett@...> wrote:
>
> I need all the help and advise that I can get on his diet foods,
and
> anyone's expertise and advise would greatly be appreciated.

Get the book "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale. You may download the
book for $9.95 from http://www.ebookmall.com/ebooks-authors/tom-
lonsdale-ebooks.htm or order hard copy either at

http://www.dogwise.com or at http://www.amazon.com (cheaper).

A few informative web sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: NEW to group, new 4 month old chocolate puppy/male , now already
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 7:59 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Beth" <bhscarlett@...> wrote:
He is itchy
> and allergic, and nothing seems to help, please help me,, that is one
> of the main reasons that I have joined .

Hi Beth,
I assume that you are feeding kibble, and if so there is a good chance
that your puppy is allergic to the ingredients in the kibble dog food
that you are feeding. Dogs are carnivores and have no dietary need
for carbs, think corn, rice, potatoes, which are often the main
ingredients in kibble. Also kibble has fillers and additives that can
often cause/contribute to allergies in dogs because they are not
natural in a carnivore's diet. Since kibble is cooked and processed,
the meat in kibble is not nutritionally or digest-ably the same as raw
meat and what often happens is that a dog that gets itchy from a
kibble that is chicken based will have no trouble eating raw chicken.
I would think that your best bet would be to start feeding raw food
which will improve your puppy's nutrition and boost his immune system.
If you are already feeding a raw diet, we need to know what you are
feeding to help you out. KathyM

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: NEW to group, new 4 month old chocolate puppy/male , now already
Posted by: "kaylsraven" kaylsraven@yahoo.com kaylsraven
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 7:59 am ((PDT))

> I need all the help and advise that I can get on his diet foods, and
> anyone's expertise and advise would greatly be appreciated. He is
itchy
> and allergic, and nothing seems to help, please help me,, that is
one
> of the main reasons that I have joined .

Andrea's right about kibble causing a lot of allergies and itchiness
because of the grain--get him on a raw diet and give that a chance to
clear skin problems up before worrying too much. I know it's hard not
to worry, but if that happens to be the cause, it'll clear up on its
own. If it's not (and it's not, necessarily) give it some time to
ensure that it's not then other causes can be looked at.

I assume when you say chocolate male you're talking about a lab puppy?
The rule of thumb is 2-3% adult body weight (some dogs need more, some
need less, but that's the average for average sized dogs). Standard
says male labs are 65-80 lbs, so you're looking at feeding somewhere
around 1.5 and 2 lbs a day, split between two or three meals. That was
going with 2.5%, so you'll probably need to tweak it. If you're not
talking about a lab, just take his estimated adult weight (check the
standard or ask his breeder?) and get the percentage from that.

Chicken's recommended as a good starting place because it's cheap and
easy to find and the bones are soft and easily crunched, so start with
that and keep reading through the list. We have a lot of posts on how
people should start their dogs, and the snags they tend to run into in
the beginning while the dog's digestion system switches itself over
from junk food to real food. Start big--leg quarters are good for a
pup his size. No wings or necks unless they're attached to the chicken-
-way too small, way too bony.

Cheers,

Sabrina 'n the gang

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Size Appropriate Meaty Bones for Large Dogs
Posted by: "sjhansler" sjhansler@aol.com sjhansler
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 6:53 am ((PDT))

Hi, I'm new to raw feeding (3 1/2 weeks) and new to this group.
I've been introducing new foods quite slowly; beef, liver, lamb,
eggs and chicken back w/neck. I may be going more slowly than most
or maybe than what I should, but I will say I've not had any stomach
upset, diarrhea, vomiting – everything is going well and my dog
loves it. (He thinks I was holding out the good stuff from him for
years.) So far, the only meaty bone that he's had is the chicken
back w/neck. They've been big with quite a bit of meat on them.
Everything that I read says that the bones need to be "size
appropriate". I'm not sure what size appropriate is for a 5 ½ year
old male yellow lab, 88 lbs. I've heard that the leg/thigh
combination is too small for dogs this size because they could
swallow it whole (and I know he could). I would think the same
might be true for the breast/wing combo. Do I give him a half a
chicken? Is that too much bone and meat for one meal? He doesn't
swallow the chicken back w/neck whole. It's usually chomp, chomp,
chomp, swallow a part of it then repeat again with one or two more
pieces of it.

Can someone suggest what might be "size appropriate" for meaty
boness - for chicken and then for meat other than chicken. I want
to get some variety with the meaty bones and am unsure of what would
most likely be successful for a big dog. At this point my primary
sources are the grocery store, local butcher shop, possibly an
ethnic market or Whole Foods.

Sherri H

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Size Appropriate Meaty Bones for Large Dogs
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sjhansler" <sjhansler@...> wrote:
>
> I've heard that the leg/thigh
> combination is too small for dogs this size because they could
> swallow it whole (and I know he could).

No, the leg/thigh combo (known as leg quarters) are a good size.
They are larger than backs and have more meat on them. I feed them
to my Great Danes frequently. They are also cheap. YOu can get
them at Walmart in 10 lb bags for about 45 cents/lb.

> Do I give him a half a chicken?

You can feed half a chicken if you choose to. I don't but many
people do. Many also feed whole chickens.

> Is that too much bone and meat for one meal?

Depends on how often you feed him.

> Can someone suggest what might be "size appropriate" for meaty
> boness - for chicken and then for meat other than chicken.

Any part of a turkey, pork, beef except legs, goat, lamb. Most
anything except chicken necks (alone) or wings (alone).

> At this point my primary
> sources are the grocery store, local butcher shop, possibly an
> ethnic market or Whole Foods.

I have had real good luck getting stuff from small independent
grocery stores in bulk. Talk to the owner or meat manager (in
person, not on the phone) about ordering you stuff in bulk. I get
chicken backs, turkey necks and beef heart this way. Explain that
this is not a one time deal, that you will be regularly ordering ane
will probably order 75 to 100 lbs a month. (That may be a little
exagurating but say it anyway. :) ) You may already be doing this
at the butcher shop.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Size Appropriate Meaty Bones for Large Dogs
Posted by: "Margaret Martell" zahrammm1@yahoo.com zahrammm1
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 8:00 am ((PDT))

sjhansler <sjhansler@aol.com> wrote: So far, the only meaty bone that he's had is the chicken
back w/neck. They've been big with quite a bit of meat on them.
Everything that I read says that the bones need to be "size
appropriate". I'm not sure what size appropriate is for a 5 ½ year
old male yellow lab, 88 lbs. I've heard that the leg/thigh
combination is too small for dogs this size because they could
swallow it whole (and I know he could). I would think the same
might be true for the breast/wing combo. Do I give him a half a
chicken? Is that too much bone and meat for one meal?
*****Size-appropriate is usually bigger than their head, so they can't swallow anything whole. For an 88 lb. Lab, the smallest I'd go is half a chicken, especially since you know he could swallow a leg/thigh combo. Don't worry about too much bone or meat in one particular meal. He'll get what he needs overall, in time, with a variety of foods.
I'd look for whole (or big cuts if you can't find whole) turkeys, chickens, duck, goat (if you can find it), pork picnics (my Dobe's favorite), a big whole slab of ribs (pork or beef), big lamb shanks or ribs (depending on price; lamb tends to be expensive), fish (if your dog will eat it; some won't). Basically, any kind of meat/fish you can find/afford that he'll eat and that's big. The only exception I have with my dog is that she cannot consume beef bones. She'll chew the ends of a slab of beef ribs, but that's about it. Beef bones (some call them "wreck" bones) tend to be too dense and can break or damage a tooth/teeth. I'll usually feed beef without the bone (which I actually need to cut into pieces becuz my Dobe gulps and she's choked on big hunks of beef before too many times). The pork picnics are my favorite to feed because they have so much meaty meat and some bone and the workout my dog gets eating it is great. I'll just put the whole thing down for her,
let her eat some of it, then I'll take the rest away and feed it to her again the next night. She won't self-regulate, so I have to do it for her. She'd eat until she threw up.
I hope this helps a little bit.
Margaret & Zahra

---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Size Appropriate Meaty Bones for Large Dogs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 9:16 am ((PDT))

"sjhansler" <sjhansler@...> wrote:
So far, the only meaty bone that he's had is the chicken
> back w/neck. They've been big with quite a bit of meat on them.
*****
They probably don't have much meat on them at all but added to meaty
meals they'll do. If you can easily define the skeletal structure,
there is not quite a bit of meat on them.

> Everything that I read says that the bones need to be "size
> appropriate". I'm not sure what size appropriate is for a 5 ½ year
> old male yellow lab, 88 lbs.
*****
Big is what's appopriate for big dogs! Chicken back/neck combos are
not big. Regarding chicken, what's big is half a bird. Since you
get to choose the weight of the bird you buy, you can buy smaller or
larger birds to suit your dog's needs. For an 88lb Lab, whole
chickens are excellent options. I feed my 85lb Lab nothing
smaller than chicken halves. Today he will be getting a turkey leg
quarter or wing/breast quarter (I haven't cut up the turkey yet).

I've heard that the leg/thigh
> combination is too small for dogs this size because they could
> swallow it whole (and I know he could).
*****
I agree that the leg quarter is too small for your Lab. I know
biggish dogs that eat carefully--I am babysitting two now that eat
even drums carefully but I don't take such behavior for granted! If
you know your dog is capable of hasty eating choices, don't feed leg
quarters. Leg quarters are easy for the human and they're cheap.
They are not special and there are less compromised options.

Even if leg quarters offer no apparent threat, they also offer no
apparent challenge. Big dogs can use big challenges. While you may
want to work up to that sort of big, you should not deny your dog the
opportunity to work for his supper.

I would think the same
> might be true for the breast/wing combo.
*****
Yes. I give chicken quarters to my 32lb border collie and she needs
maybe five minutes to make them gone. Again, I recommend you
graduate to halves.

Is that too much bone and meat for one meal?
*****
No, generally it's the right size for one meal, especially if you're
feeding one meal a day. For daily use, I buy chickens that weigh
about three, three and a half pounds. Split, that's about right for
an 85lb Lab, per day. It is somewhat lacking in meat though, so
alternate these parts (all chicken parts for that matter) with
meatymeat meals.

He doesn't
> swallow the chicken back w/neck whole. It's usually chomp, chomp,
> chomp, swallow a part of it then repeat again with one or two more
> pieces of it.
*****
This gets the job done but when possible the meaty bones part of the
menu should require significantly more interaction. Maybe not every
time (although that would be lovely) but certainly more often than
occasionally.

> Can someone suggest what might be "size appropriate" for meaty
> boness
*****
You should browse the archives; this issue appears often. To my
retrievers (60lb - 85lb) I offer whole and half chickens, pork
shoulder roasts and spare rib slabs, lamb breasts and shoulder roasts
and legs, goat sections, turkey quarters, whole rabbit and other
whole or large things as they come available.

IMO there is a real problem trying to feed big food to a big dog when
you are feeding twice a day. Unless you are quite willing to flex
your schedule, you end up feeding small pieces of everything. Small
meaty bones, small meats. For now you may have to feed small but wen
you are comfortable with his abilities, you should move to one meal a
day which will make feeding bigger food much more doable.

I feed my retrievers every other day, pert near; sometimes once a day
if the food is small. To give your dog the most bang for his dinner
bucks, feed big. At least some of the time.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Question}
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 7:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "aliciamyan" <alicia_larson@> wrote:
> > Being new at
> > this and a bit nervous, I probably didn't come off as confident
as
> > I'd like. Hopefully the oil will last long enough for me to read
> > more and see more positive results so I'll be ready if the topic
re-
> > surfaces when I go back.
> *****
> I suspect you'll never be as good an audience as you were then.
The
> more you know--and the more you know WHY--the harder it will be to
> listen to the taradiddle. That you were able to extricate yourself
> from his pitch without wavering and/or buying an armload of dietary
go-
> fasters is to your great credit. You're further along than you
think!
> Chris O
>
Thanks for the encourgement Chris. Since I will be returning to the
store today to return the CLO, I did more research on the
internet: "zoo+wolf+diet". I am prepared if the same clerk is there
and approaches the subject of raw again. Wolves (grey, not maned)
are
carnivores (not omnivores). I'd say 80% of the zoo info pages stated
they feed raw meat and bones to their wolves. Sadly, some did
mention
that although the natural diet is raw meat and bones, for lack of
access to the meat/bones, they also feed "high quality kibble". NO
MENTION OF PLANT/VEGETATION. I know there are plenty of resources to
confirm/backup the all meat diet, but I think it's hard to argue that
a
zoologist has a bias view or is uneducated on this subject. Bring it
on pet store clerk! (Probably everyone on this site already knows
this, but just in case a newbie out there is needing one more piece
of
info/ammo....)

Thanks to all who are taking the time to educate us newbies!
Alicia

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Question}
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 8:33 am ((PDT))

"aliciamyan" <alicia_larson@...> wrote:
I did more research on the
> internet: "zoo+wolf+diet". I am prepared if the same clerk is there
> and approaches the subject of raw again. Wolves (grey, not maned)
> are
> carnivores (not omnivores). I'd say 80% of the zoo info pages stated
> they feed raw meat and bones to their wolves.
*****
I promise you, as soon as you bring up grey wolves the response will be
that dogs aren't wolves. You'll be told about evolved differences and
how different breeds have different genetic needs; you'll be told that
through the wolf's interaction with man, it has come to need carbos and
vegetation. The people who insist on feeding dogs according to the
human food pyramid cannot let go of the evolutionary changes argument,
to do so would totally devalue the product they sell. Both can't be
true so one must be false.

If your plan is to go armed, you might also need to have
scientific "proof" that dogs are wolves are dogs, if you need links to
scientific websites, ask.

But it's a fruitless battle in most cases anyway. I think saying you
feed a species appropriate diet is plenty good. You could also tell the
guy to put a sock in it.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Salmon oil and other questions
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 7:36 am ((PDT))

> Does anyone know of any good brands or does it matter as long as it
> is salmon oil and not CLO?

Actually, it doesn't even have to be Salmon oil. I get regular old
fish body oil, much cheaper than salmon oil.

> I don't even have a pet store in the town I live in, would a ranch
> store have it?

There are some online sources for pet quality fish/salmon oil, but I
get my capsules at regular old grocery stores in the vitamin area.
There are lots to choose from. My main requirement for a good buy is
that in one capsule I get at least 180mg EPA and 120mg DHA.

> since she is being fed deer/elk/Antilope would it still be
> appropriate to give her salmon oil?

If her primary source of food is wild prey animals I don't think she
really needs the fish oil, it would be more of a "just in case"
supplement. BTW, where do you live that you are lucky enough to get
such great foodstuffs? I'm jealous.

> 2. Just out of pure curiosity/stupidity, how in nature
> would wolves have steady access to deep sea fish?

They wouldn't really, except maybe if they pluck salmon out of the
rivers when they come in to spawn. In nature wolves wouldn't have an
imbalance between O3's and O6's because their prey wouldn't live on a
diet of mainly corn. Good question.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Salmon oil and other questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 7:48 am ((PDT))

"lauraanimal1" <lauraanimal1@...> wrote:
>
The
> salmon oil question was wonderfully answered, I see I need to pick
> me up some salmon oil,
*****
While you are feeding all that wonderful venison you do not have to
worry about supplemental oil. When the well runs dry and you have to
rely on commercially raised food you might have to consider oil. But
for now, you definitely have time. If/when you need to, you can find
it at most supermarkets and certainly at Walmart. Your most
economical bet might be to order online.

> so with that in mind I have 2 more questions, 1. since she is
being
> fed deer/elk/Antilope would it still be appropriate to give her
> salmon oil?
*****
Not INappropriate, just unnecessary.

2. Just out of pure curiosity/stupidity, how in nature
> would wolves have steady access to deep sea fish? specially since
> most are landlocked?
*****
Running salmon make good eating for bears and wolves and other
carnivores. Sometimes the wolves manage to catch their own fish,
sometiems they eat what the bears leave behind. Generally during a
salmon run there's plenty of salmon go around and the leftovers help
fertilize the riparian forest.

This is definitely a seasonal phenom and for wolves far from salmon
populations it doesn't apply. What makes salmon useful applies as
well to other cold water fish though, which is why fish like mackerel
and herring and sardines and anchovies can in good conscience be
recommended. They are not required. No fish is.

She does eat some whole plain meat chunks, but right now she
> seems to just prefer munching on the ribs. I don't mind her
munching
> on the bones, I just need to know if it is dangerous in this
amount.
*****
You'll know if it bothers her when she's constipated; you'll know if
it bothers her if her coat and skin start looking dry and unhealthy.
All that bone may never bother her. In the wild though, huge
quantities of meat are eaten which is why we recommend as much as 80%
of the menu as meat. I think carcasses are splendid but if I were in
your enviable position, I would offer meat regularly and
carcasses/offal less frequently.

>I do have access to lamb/beef/pork stomachs lungs, hear,
> liver, wind pipes, spleen, tongue, feet, heads, etc. all year
round,
> so I am focusing on what is not all year round. That was why I was
> asking if it will do her harm if she only eats the wild game I am
> getting right now for a while.(been on it roughly 3 weeks, will
> remain(?) on it for another 2-3 months)
*****
You have a gorgeous lineup there and IMO you got NO need to fret. My
dogs want to come visit.

The problem I am having now is AS SOON as I put her
> back on raw she has started with the watery eyes again and this
time
> it is even worse.
*****
Rubbing can be a response to pain. Have you checked her mouth for
damaged teeth or gums, or for a stuck bone? Have you checked that
her surgeries didn't leave something behind? Is it possible the
venison has been treated with something that is irritating her eyes?
Or irritating her nose or mouth, for that matter. Have you checked
her ears? I would look first for sources of pain or discomfort.

I find it hard to attribute this to food allergy but have you tried
feeding her a different meat protein altogether? And it could be
she's sensitive to some to something else entirely. Anything else
change when you started feeding raw food?

This is a major poser, it is. I'm sorry I don't have answers; more
questions are not what you need! Please let us know what you find
out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: More feeding amount, types, NEWBIE questions: Giant & small bree
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 7:36 am ((PDT))

> Do I feed chicken for another few weeks?

Based on the fact that a lot of them are having loose stool, yes keep
along with chicken. You mentioned other people in the house
overfeeding things like liver, this may be a big reason that no one
seems to have solid poos. Before you add more bone to the diet, take
the organ out. Probably best to take out all organs and save them
for later. Some dogs get loose stool from just a fingernail's worth
of liver, so it really makes it hard for you to really know where you
are on balance.

> I am NOT supplementing anything other than what they were getting
> before.Should I be giving a vitamin, etc?

No, eventually you might consider adding fish oil to the party, but
don't worry about that right now.

> At this time I am understanding that the only wings I feed are to
> the Danes or Dal IF still attached to the chicken. But how about
> the Lhasas, I'm afraid I am overfeeding them with legs/thighs.

Other small breed owners may jump in here, but since wings are so
boney I wouldn't feed them without extra meat, in which case you are
right back to the meal size of a leg or thigh. If you feel like the
Lhasas are eating too much per day you can monitor their eating and
take the food away when you feel they have had enough. Or you could
change to feeding once a day so they can eat their fill.

> I don't know if i am feeding enough bone!

There's a pretty good chance that adding bone would firm up stools,
but you should probably remove the organs first.

> Here's a very important question: I am only feeding chicken but i
> only get one tiny neck in a whole chicken. Can I feed Turkey necks
> since i can get those?

IMO, chicken necks are way too small for your big dogs. If the
Lhasas are polite eaters they are probably ok. Even turkey necks
seem pretty small for Danes, though. I once bought a whole case of
turkey necks and watched in horror as Geiger tried to swallow his
very first one whole. He didn't get very far, but it caused quite a
bit of gagging. The rest of the necks were given to the cats or fed
frozen to Geiger.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: More feeding amount, types, NEWBIE questions: Giant & small bree
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 7:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Do I feed chicken for another few weeks? I think the answer is
yes.

If it were me, I'd feed chicken another week then add in some
turkey. Alternate meals between chicken and turkey.

> I am NOT supplementing anything other than what they were
> getting before.

What were they getting before and why?

> Should I be giving a vitamin, etc?

No

> They are getting small treats in between & there's a
> bit over 'overfeeding'
> of some things by others in the household (like liver, etc).

That MAY be the cause of some of the soft stools.

> At this time I am understanding that the only wings I feed are
> to the Danes
> or Dal IF still attached to the chicken.

Correct. You MIGHT want to consider cutting the wings off and
feeding them to the small dogs. Not because of the Danes but
because it would be easy cheap food for the tiny ones.

> I feed twice daily so what to
> feed if not the wing.....I'm just a bit frazzled on the what &
> how much still.

Others probably won't agree but I have no problem feeding wings to
the smaller dogs as long as they get some other peices sometimes
with more meat on them.

> I don't think Whisper's gran mal seizure was related to the
> diet change but
> I've not chatted with my regular vet yet to know his opinion
> of raw.

I can ALMOST guarantee the diet wasn't the cause.

> I don't know if i am feeding enough bone!

If you are feeding whole chicken parts you are feeding enough bone.

> I know my little Lhasa
> (the one who is on a diet) does have some white poop (more bone
> in poo, if i
> read right) but the other has some runny poo.

If the poop is white coming out then you are feeding too much bone.
If it comes out light brown and turns white in a day or two, you
aren't. The runny poo COULD be from not enough bone but also COULD
be from feeding to much food/meal OR feeding too much fat (cut off
fat and skin from chicken parts you are feeding that dog) OR feeding
too much organ meat. I suspect with a dog that small, you are
feeding too much volume.

> Here's a very important question: I am only feeding chicken but
> i only get
> one tiny neck in a whole chicken. Can I feed Turkey necks since
> i can get those?

I would wait a week then start feeding some turkey necks if you
wish. I suggest not feeding the necks that have been cut in half
(what you normally find in grocery stores). Feed whole necks which
are about a foot long and weigh about a pound. Talk to the meat
manager in the grocery store and see if you can buy some before he
cuts them in two.

> We don't have chicken necks available & I need to get a bit more
> bone to harden up the poop, right?

Not necessarily. I don't think your dog's soft poop is caused by
too little bone. Probably caused by too much food/meal or too much
fat or too many organs. If you are feeding ANY organs, hold off for
a couple of monthns. Cut the skin and fat off the chicken pieces
for the dogs with soft poop. Feed smaller amounts for the dogs with
soft poop.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6.1. Re: Salmon Oil
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 8:09 am ((PDT))

Howard Salob <itiskismet1968@...> wrote:
> I see that you feed raw to your cat as well as your dogs. I am
trying to get my cat started. Besides sardines what else do you feed
her?
*****
Howard, I urge you to join Rawcat! There is NO place like Rawcat for
getting help when trying to get your cat started on raw. I am
exceedingly fortunate that the two cats I started on raw both assumed
it was their idea and boy was I slow on the uptake. The Rawcat list
and this link will help lots: http://www.rawfedcats.org/index.htm

My cat seems to like most everything. She's not keen on mice, and
sardines are an off again/on again food, and storebought beef (though
not beef HEART) gets bounced back immediately. Her edible bones are
chicken wings, necks, ribs and backs; any game hen part; frog legs;
whole quail; lamb riblets; hen turkey necks; rabbit ribs. She does a
great clean up job on pork ribs, pork shoulder blades, and lamb shank
bones but leaves most of the bone which is to be expected. She eats
liver, heart, spleen, kidney and--except for storebought beef--all
meats.

There are more species appropriate meals I can be/should be feeding and
with luck I'll get there someday and maybe she'll like them, too.
Right now she along with the dogs get what they get and boy howdy they
don't seem to be suffering for it.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (83)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7.1. Re: older dog (rescue- lack of teeth) and raw diet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 8:18 am ((PDT))

Howard Salob <itiskismet1968@...> wrote:
>
> What happens if you have an older dog(that you got as a rescue)
and has teeth missing. How does this affect the raw diet and eating
of bones?
*****
You should check the archives for this, it's been discussed many
times. Since all raw diets should be finetuned to meet the needs of
each dog throughout the dog's life, it shouldn't be that hard to find
things the rescue can eat well. Missing teeth shouldn't stop the dog
from enjoying real food. Since older dogs need less bone anyway, the
compromises one may have to make are reduced.

Rescue dogs may need help because of the psychological baggage they
bring with them. Older dogs may need help because of physical
problems. Any dog can have mssing teeth. When you combine the
issues you may well have your hands fulll but absolutely none of
these issues prohibit you from feeding a healthy raw diet.

Please browse the archives for previous solutions.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (83)
________________________________________________________________________

7.2. Re: older dog (rescue- lack of teeth) and raw diet
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

My 11 yr old Lhasa just had 11 more teeth removed & doesn't have many left!
She eats the chicken fine.
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

On 10/3/07, Howard Salob <itiskismet1968@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Chris,
>
> What happens if you have an older dog(that you got as a rescue) and has
> teeth missing. How does this affect the raw diet and eating of bones?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Howard
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (83)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Deer Season
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Donna" <donnad2998@...> wrote:
I guess an easy answer is what is
> NOT good from the deer. (Which bones)

Hi Donna,
JMO, i let my dogs tackle any bone parts from a deer provided that the
bone is covered with some type of fur, skin, or meat...and is not
stripped down by the processor. I watch them eat and remove the bones
when there is nothing left on there for them to tear off--this
includes the leg bones. I wouldn't necessarily consider all of these
bones a meal, more like a super fun chew toy. Don't forget to ask for
the whole head, too. KathyM

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Deer Season
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

"Donna" <donnad2998@...> wrote:
>
> Now that deer season is approachig a lot of my friends deer hunt. I
> know when they get a deer they gut it out and bury the stuff in the
> woods. What should I ask them to save of that

If it were me (and I wish it were!) I'd probably ask them if they
could bring everything back if that would be more convenient to
them. If they don't mind picking out some things, the only things I
would leave behind are the bladder and intestines.

> and is it ok to my GD 100 Pounds to have the deer legs.

With hide, meat and all the sinew attached, yes. I would probably
take it away when it got down to bare bone, though.

> I guess an easy answer is what is NOT good from the deer. (Which
> bones)

I would pass on any bones that have been stripped of meat, especially
legs.

> Do I have to freeze deer before they eat it? If so for how long?

To be safe, yes. I don't imagine it would have to stay frozen for
very long, someone else may know for sure but I think a week would be
more than sufficient.

I'm jealous.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Deer Season
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

"What should I ask them to save of that and is it ok to my GD 100 Pounds to
have the deer legs. I guess an easy answer is what is NOT good from the
deer. (Which bones) Do I have to freeze deer before they eat it? If so for
how long?"

You can feed anything they will save for you from the deer. I don't let
mine chew on deer legs for too long, only to get the meat off then I pick
them up. I have power chewers and leg bones are weight bearing bones and
can break their teeth if you have power chewers.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

8d. Re: Deer Season
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 9:12 am ((PDT))

Oh, and I have fed mine fresh from the butcher, without being frozen just
fine.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 8:54 am ((PDT))

All breeds of dogs (and cats) should be raw fed.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10. picking out bones
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 9:14 am ((PDT))

I have a 16month old dane who suddenly seems to have changed her eating habits. She normally eats what I give her no hesitations. One morning she ate a whole chicken about 4 lbs that evening she ate very little just nibbled.That was Saturday morning. She still is just picking at her food. She has been eating the same whole chicken this whole time. What is weird is she very carefully picks out the bones and leaves the meat is a few chunks on the floor. According to the 80/10/10 ratio, I probly feed more bone then I should anyway. So why is she just eating the bones and should I try to feed her more bones? I haven't gave her anything else because I don't want her to become a finicky eater. She acts fine, plays, has no temp ect. I am a little concerned because she has lost a little weigth and I work realy hard to keep weight on her. She is very active! Raw feed for about 6 months now, never had any problems. Anyone have any suggestions? Should I hold out or feed her something
different or even be concerned? Thanks Felicia

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11. Tripe/Organs Questions
Posted by: "ncrnrgrl" jcraver1@nc.rr.com ncrnrgrl
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 9:22 am ((PDT))

Hi all,
How often should I be feeding tripe?
And organs?

I've been feeding raw for about 2 months to my two dogs with no trouble
to report - and very happy enthusiastic eaters - just mentally
struggling with making sure I balance all the bits and pieces (pun
intended) correctly.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Jenny

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. Is my pup too small?
Posted by: "barbie4527" Birdlady746@msn.com barbie4527
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 9:49 am ((PDT))

Hello, my name is Barb and I joined to learn about this raw feeding. I
have always fed the "natural" dog food, but I am not real pleased even
with that. My baby is 3 months old and is only 4 pounds. He is a
shih tzu/poodle mix and I dont xpect him to get real big. What would
be small enough and safe enough to start him out on? He is on
California Natural right now. Do you have to wean them over to the
raw food? Thanks, Barb

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------