[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12105

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Dog Sick to Stomach
From: Virginia Snider

2.1. New to raw
From: Tracy Meal

3a. Salmon oil questions and.....
From: lauraanimal1
3b. Re: Salmon oil questions and.....
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Salmon oil questions and.....
From: Giselle
3d. Re: Salmon oil questions and.....
From: Carol Dunster

4a. Feeding sick puppy (was: runns in house & gagging)
From: T Smith
4b. Re: Feeding sick puppy (was: runns in house & gagging)
From: Giselle

5a. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: T Smith
5b. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Giselle
5c. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Giselle
5d. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Andrea

6a. Re: Diseases in deer/rabbit meat?
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Questions about Pork
From: linoleum5017

8a. How often can I expect poop?
From: rareimer1979
8b. Re: How often can I expect poop?
From: Giselle

9a. large breed puppy switching to raw
From: ben
9b. Re: large breed puppy switching to raw
From: Sandee Lee
9c. Re: large breed puppy switching to raw
From: Giselle
9d. Re: large breed puppy switching to raw
From: carnesbill

10. Re: 911 - please help
From: tantelin22@aol.com

11a. Re: Are pork ribs tips safe?
From: Giselle

12a. Re: Feeding Amounts
From: Giselle
12b. Re: Feeding Amounts
From: Andrea
12c. Re: Feeding Amounts
From: T Smith

Messages
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1. Dog Sick to Stomach
Posted by: "Virginia Snider" vsnider@cogeco.ca rawbglass
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 9:06 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

My Pug Rio, 11 mos & 22 pounds - but a tall slim handsome laddie, has
been on raw about a month now. He's been doing really well so far although
I still have to sear the meat and the size of the"chunks" are getting
bigger.until yesterday.

He had turkey which he has been fine on and threw up a little bit.
Tonight he had cow liver and chicken which he has been fine on, and just
now, about 4 hours after dinner threw up 3 times and it was a lot. His poop
tonight was formed but a bit wet, but, otherwise he is drinking water,
playing and seems fine. My DH confessed he gave him a bite of onions and
zucchini - I knew he slid him an onion since he was stinkin' up the house.
Since I didn't do the liver, DH said he thought it was a bit slimy -
although it is fresh it's from a different source than his usual meat it
didn't smell off but it did look different/darker.

How long can this "barfie phase" last before I get worried? Is there
something I can feed him that is less irritating on his tummy till he gets
over this? So far I thought I was lucky.

TIA,

Virginia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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2.1. New to raw
Posted by: "Tracy Meal" hiddenpoetinme1@yahoo.com hiddenpoetinme1
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 9:07 pm ((PDT))

Hi New to raw,

You wrote:
I am getting ready to start my 9 month old Bouvier on raw. Can any one
give me some advice on the best and most economical way/places to buy
meat. I do have a very large deep freezer for storage.

I live in the Chicago area, I get my meat from local grocery stores on sale. There is also a meat packing plant in the city with great prices and I can get bulk quantities to freeze.

Tracy

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (44)
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3a. Salmon oil questions and.....
Posted by: "lauraanimal1" lauraanimal1@yahoo.com lauraanimal1
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 9:08 pm ((PDT))

I keep seeing mention of salmon oil added to the diets, what is this
for?

Also I think Chris O and Gisell(sp?) need to get together and write
down a raw fed language book/page for the newbies. you can send it
when they join like you do with all the rules and etc. words Like doom
nuggets and cannon butt and squidgity and etc. There Is defenitly a
new language that goes along with a raw diet.

I asked in a prevous post about my rottie eating mostly bone even with
plenty of meat, is this dangerous for her?

I also asked about the runny eyes, and how long it lasts, as well as
her being one one meat protien, how long can she be on it before it
turns unhealthy?

Thanks all,

Laura and Ishta

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Salmon oil questions and.....
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:03 pm ((PDT))

"lauraanimal1" <lauraanimal1@...> wrote:
>
> I keep seeing mention of salmon oil added to the diets, what is
this
> for?
*****
Salmon oil (and oil from other oily-fleshed fish from cold marine
water) contains Omega 3 fatty acids, one of several essential fatty
acids that dogs cannot make themselves and must get from their diet.

A naturally occurring menu of pastured, appropriately fed livestock,
wild game, freeranging poultry and oily, deep sea fish will provide
optimal (and naturally appropriate) levels of Omega 6 and Omega 3
(the ideal ratio is around 4:1). A diet based on feedlot livestock
and factory poultry will be very high in Omega 6 and very low in
Omega 3 (grain provides the Omega 6 while the grass and other green
browse provides the Omega 3 but is a MUCH more expensive way to raise
livestock).

The "best" way, though the most expensive, to get those essential
fatty acids into your dog is by feeding appropriately raised
livestock; the easiest way to get Omega 3s into your dog is to feed
fish BODY oil (not cod LIVER oil) or salmon oil.

Appropriate levels O3 support the immune system in many ways.
Studies have shown that reducing the O6 intake is not enough; you
must also increase the amount of O3. So people do.

Or some do. Not everyone does; some do for specific issues only.
It's your choice; you may want to take a bottle for a test drive, see
what happens, or doesn't.

> > Also I think Chris O and Gisell(sp?) need to get together and
write
> down a raw fed language book/page for the newbies.
*****
I think the Berlitz school of total immersion language classes works
best with raw feeding: just keep reading and doing and one day you'll
find you're dreaming in the new language. That's a sure sign you're
there.

> I asked in a prevous post about my rottie eating mostly bone even
with
> plenty of meat, is this dangerous for her?
*****
I don't understand this. How can a dog be eating mostly bone if you
are feeding plenty of meat? Do you mean she's not eating the meat,
just the bone? If you find she eats the bone and passes up the meat
because she's full, simply feed her a bunch of boneless meals that
require her to eat meat if she's gonna eat anything. If the meat is
firmly attached to the bone, she'll generally have to eat the meat
before she can get at the bone.

What am I not seeing here?

> > I also asked about the runny eyes, and how long it lasts
*****
My dogs have runny eyes when they go romping in the tall grass; and
they have runny eyes after wrestling with a complicated meal, I've
always attributed the tears to the effort they've exerted. Other
than that my dogs' eyes aren't runny. So I can't help much here.

as well as
> her being one one meat protien, how long can she be on it before it
> turns unhealthy?
*****
Depends on the meat protein. Chicken ala chicken is less nutritious
than vension for example. I can't see much harm coming from a few
months of chicken; I should think a dog might rely on venison for
quite a long time. Both protein variety and body part variety are
recommended so you don't have to worry about such things.

What meat protein is your rottie eating and for how long?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: Salmon oil questions and.....
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 1:38 am ((PDT))

Hi, Laura!
Are you on 'no mail'?
Hmmm, did you search through the archived posts to find the responses
to the topics you've started?
Here's all the posts that turned up when I put Laura and Ishta into
the search box;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?query=Laura+and+Ishta&pos=0&cnt=10

http://tinyurl.com/2hl3yl
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?query=Laura+and+Ishta&pos=10&cnt=10

http://tinyurl.com/yp9yef
Are any of the answers you were looking for in there?

TC
Giselle

><snip>
> I asked in a previous post about my Rottie eating mostly bone even with
> plenty of meat, is this dangerous for her?
>
> I also asked about the runny eyes, and how long it lasts, as well as
> her being one one meat protein, how long can she be on it before it
> turns unhealthy?
>
> Thanks all,
>
> Laura and Ishta

Messages in this topic (4)
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3d. Re: Salmon oil questions and.....
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:32 am ((PDT))

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 05:03:35 -0000, you wrote:

>The "best" way, though the most expensive, to get those essential
>fatty acids into your dog is by feeding appropriately raised
>livestock; the easiest way to get Omega 3s into your dog is to feed
>fish BODY oil (not cod LIVER oil) or salmon oil.

If you can get eggs from really truly free ranging chickens or ducks,
they will have O3 in them too. I just read an article in the latest
Mother Earth News about the nutrition in free range/pastured chicken
eggs and there is a HUGE difference in the levels of nutrients.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/eggs.aspx

Thought you all might enjoy this information.
~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Feeding sick puppy (was: runns in house & gagging)
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 9:15 pm ((PDT))

Thank you, Whisper rested at the store with me since I had some work to do &
we are home now. Tonight, she ate a small amount of ground beef & a wee bit
of chicken.
The UPS guy gave her a small piece of biscuit at the store this afternoon
but she coughed it up. Her tonsils are very swollen.
So far the small amount of chicken & ground beef has stayed down for over an
hour. I've been keeping her resting.
Any other suggestions of small, easy to swollen raw I can get for her for
the next few days? She's not eating bone right now so how to avoid
diarrhea? Her poop all day has been normal. Only last night was the runny
poo.
It's hard to watch her go through this. I hope that was the only seizure she
ever has.
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

On 10/1/07, Carol Garnaat <cgar88@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> Trina,
> Please update with status of Whisper.
> Carol
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Feeding sick puppy (was: runns in house & gagging)
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 12:55 am ((PDT))

Hi, Trina!
You can feed chicken breasts, cut up and the bones removed.
Even ground, in small amounts is OK. I suggest the small amounts as a
load of ground in the tummy can cause horking. NPs, usually, but you
don't want a lot of coming and going through the ole esophagus right
now. Smaller, more frequent meals won't hurt her, nor would fasting
for a day. You could offer her low sodium broth along with plenty of
fresh water.
Slippery Elm Bark Powder can soothe and coat the digestive system. It
may even help with her swollen throat.
15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is “used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis.”
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in ½ ounce meatballs,
for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with each meal. Or,
fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or two) offer
plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout the day.
Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after, gradually
increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You will often
see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of the way it
soothes the digestive system, and the dog’s body will do the same
sometimes even without SEBP.

It would be hard to predict right now whether this seizure is a sign
of the beginning of epilepsy, or an early symptom of hypothyroidism,
or just idiopathic, even for your vet, I'm sure. Keeping her quiet,
and supporting her with an optimum diet is the best you can do for her
right now.
TC
Giselle

> Thank you, Whisper rested at the store with me since I had some work
to do &
> we are home now.
<snip>
> It's hard to watch her go through this. I hope that was the only
seizure she
> ever has.
> Trina
> --
> Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
> Casper (deaf Great Dane)
> Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
> Louie (hearing Great Dane)
> Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
> Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
> Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 9:16 pm ((PDT))

When feeding my Great Dane 1/2 a small chicken I leave the wing on. This is
ok?
Trina

On 10/1/07, carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Chicken wings are small before you chopped them up. Chicken wings
> are too small to feed any but the very smallest of dogs. I feed
> wings only to my cats.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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5b. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 1:04 am ((PDT))

Hi, Trina!
Chicken parts, like wings 'n necks are too bony by
themselves to feed any size dog. For medium/small to giant breeds,
they are a choking hazard. Attached to the rest of the chicken, any
part is loverly.
Even heads 'n feets. ; )
TC
G

> When feeding my Great Dane 1/2 a small chicken I leave the wing on.
This is
> ok?
> Trina

Messages in this topic (15)
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5c. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 1:21 am ((PDT))

Hi, Gail!
I don't know what size your dogs are, nor what 'flavor' of
'raw feeding' plan you have ascribed to, nor what info you have
gleaned from the 'net at large. This list supports and promotes a
species appropriate raw whole prey model diet.

Bigger is better, even for small dogs. Boney parts, like wings 'n
necks, are just that, too bony by themselves to feed. They are also,
if you have anything but tiny toy dogs, a choking hazard.

Read my recommendations or starting raw feeding, and print it out, so
you can highlight the relevant sections;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374
In that post is also a very creative compilation of ways to obtain a
variety of proteins for cheap or free.

And these websites;
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

To help your dogs (and you) get over the newness of eating raw, read
these archived posts;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758
Message #130758

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134336
Message #134336

It might be better to leave off the Omega 3 oil (what kind are you
feeding?) until your dogs are eagerly digging in to the raw food. Time
enough to add it back in later.

Do yourself and your dogs a favor, ditch the kibble, and remember to
Breathe! Feeding your dogs an optimum diet is not rocket science, nor
brain surgery. All it takes is some good advice and common sense.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Need help trying to raw feed have been doing so for about three
months now, trouble is I have had a chicken wing down for three days
now and it is left untouched by both my dogs.
<snip>
I know you all disagree with kibble but I don't want them to starve so
try everything at the moment. HELP.
>
> Gail

Messages in this topic (15)
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5d. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:33 am ((PDT))

As long as the wing is still attached to the chicken you are good to go. Lone wings are waay
to easy for dogs to try and swallow whole.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> When feeding my Great Dane 1/2 a small chicken I leave the wing on. This is
> ok?

Messages in this topic (15)
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6a. Re: Diseases in deer/rabbit meat?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 9:33 pm ((PDT))

"trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>
> I read on this group before that deer/rabbit and other wild animals
> can contain diseases that can spread to dogs if it is not frozen for
a
> certain amount of time. Is this true?
*****
Certainly wild animals can carry and therefore transfer fleas; tapeworm
is a potential. Freezing will kill the fleas. Tapes can be dealt with
in various ways if they appear, so I don't consider that a big deal
either. Rabbits may carry tularemia(rabbit fever) but I understand
that for dogs it's less of an issue than medical authorities would have
you believe. Deer may have chronic wasting disease but there is NO
evidence at all that this transmits to dogs. Cats yes, dogs no.

Is there any part
> of wild animals that I should avoid feeding?
*****
I might have second thoughts about wild boar; other than that, wild
game is wild game. If you have doubts, freeze first.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Questions about Pork
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:06 pm ((PDT))

Haha! I live in a suburban area, where deer are not very shy, and can
actually be more dangerous because of it. Sounds like you have just
the place for free & easy.

Enjoy it!
Lynne

> As for my dogs chasing deer ... I don't think either one has been
> within 50' of a deer. :) They just can't get that close. I think
> if my Thor were to actually catch a deer, he would run in front to
> get the deer to chase him. He loves to be chased. :) :) :) He does
> this a lot with Abby. He will chase her and when he catches her he
> passes her so now she is chasing him. :) :) :)
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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8a. How often can I expect poop?
Posted by: "rareimer1979" rareimer@gmail.com rareimer1979
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:06 pm ((PDT))

A sentence I never thought I would type...LOL.

My Pug is 8 weeks old, and is just starting raw (I got him on
Saturday.) He is liking it so far, though he is still figuring out
how to eat it, so is probably not eating close to the 2-3% of adult
body weight yet. i figure he should have about 1/2 lb. a day,
according to that calculation, but he's probably averaging more like
1/8 lb. a day, over 3 or 4 meals. i think i might start grinding a
bit of it for him until he's bigger. so far, i've had to cut it up
into chunks because he just doesn't "get" how to eat the bigger
pieces. or at least cut it up into smaller pieces than i am, to see
if he can eat more that way.

My main question is, that in the 3 days since I've had him, he's only
pooped 3 times, and two of those times were the first day, the second
time was yesterday. those were still leftover kibble poops, i think.
he hasn't pooped today, and i'm wondering how often i can expect him
to poop...we're working on housetraining, and he is doing great with
not peeing in the house (only doing it outside--YAY!) but each time
he's pooped, he's done it inside. i don't catch him doing it, because
i'm not really sure how often or when to expect it. i know raw-fed
dogs poop less, so how MUCH less?

thanks! seems to me i've read the answers to this before, but just
like when you have a new baby, i all of a sudden forget everything i
had researched and tried to remember...LOL.

Robyn

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: How often can I expect poop?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:01 am ((PDT))

Hi, Robyn!
Since the pup is new to you, new to raw, and pretty new to
the world, the answer is; you'll have to wait and see.

Raw fed dogs and pups do poop less frequently and have less volume
than kibble fed dogs. Its not unusual for a dog to go 2-3 days between
poops, or poop daily. It depends, on his digestive system, on the
amount of bone fed, on his activity or stress level, on whether his
system takes it in stride when you introduce boneless meals and
organs. There are a lot of variables. you'll have to learn to know
your pup.

You might make sure you take him outside more frequently until he
establishes a pattern you can recognize. You also could provide a
disposable piddle pad in his crate, ex-pen or area of confinement
during those times when you can't watch him or plan to take him out.
Having a regular potty place and taking him to it on a lead so that he
'does his business' first before romping around can help him establish
good potty habits. Giving him a cue, like "Hurry Up" or "Go Potty" can
help him learn to recognize when it is time to make the effort.

Toy pups often need more than the 2-3% that is recommended. Often, you
can plan to feed a pup under 4 mo up to 10% of his estimated IDEAL
ADULT body weight. But, Pugs, ime, are easy keepers, so he may do well
on less.

I wouldn't grind his meals. Ground meat tends to come back up as fast
as it goes down, as the stomach gets it so fast, it can't prepare the
gastric juices needed for digestion in the amounts necessary. Cutting
food up too, can be problematic. Too small pieces food can be a
perfect size for choking, as Pugs tend to be gulpers. And he won't
learn how to crunch and rip and tear if you do it for him.

I'd recommend that you give a breast or leg quarter, maybe even 1/2 a
Game Hen at first, and ribbon the meat on the bone in strips with
kitchen shears so that he has something to grab onto. Don't worry
about him eating the bone at first. There's plenty of time for him to
gain proficiency eating raw and enough jaw strength to eat bones.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> A sentence I never thought I would type...LOL.
>
> My Pug is 8 weeks old, and is just starting raw (I got him on
> Saturday.)
<snip>
> My main question is, that in the 3 days since I've had him, he's only
> pooped 3 times, and two of those times were the first day, the second
> time was yesterday. those were still leftover kibble poops, i think.
> he hasn't pooped today, and i'm wondering how often i can expect him
> to poop...
<snip>
> Robyn

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. large breed puppy switching to raw
Posted by: "ben" ben1721@yahoo.com ben1721
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:07 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone! I'm new here and I've been so impressed with the wealth
of information in this group. My fiance and I are planning to adopt a
Newfoundland puppy in early November so we're starting our raw food
research ASAP! I have several questions/concerns:

Until 8ish weeks of age, the breeder will be feeding a premium brand
ki**!e designed for "large breed puppies". Is it true that large/giant
breed puppies should have decreased protein in their diet to slow
growth? If so, how is this accommodated when feeding raw? When we
first bring the puppy home should we wait to switch to raw until he
has settled in, or is it ok to start right away? Do giant breed
puppies also fit into the formula of 2% of their ideal adult weight =
daily food weight? It's hard to imagine a puppy eating almost 2.5
lbs/day... but I suppose that's one of the joys of raising a giant
breed puppy. We really appreciate any information you can share with us!

Thanks,
Rachel (and Ben!)

Messages in this topic (4)
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9b. Re: large breed puppy switching to raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:12 pm ((PDT))

Hi Rachel,

No, you absolutely should not decrease protein in the diet of a giant breed
growing puppy. Stick with prey model and he will grow perfectly. No need
to wait on getting that diet changed...the sooner the better! 2-3% of his
expected adult weight is accurate...have fun!!! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "ben" <ben1721@yahoo.com>

Until 8ish weeks of age, the breeder will be feeding a premium brand
ki**!e designed for "large breed puppies". Is it true that large/giant
breed puppies should have decreased protein in their diet to slow
growth? If so, how is this accommodated when feeding raw? When we
first bring the puppy home should we wait to switch to raw until he
has settled in, or is it ok to start right away? Do giant breed
puppies also fit into the formula of 2% of their ideal adult weight =
daily food weight? It's hard to imagine a puppy eating almost 2.5
lbs/day... but I suppose that's one of the joys of raising a giant
breed puppy. We really appreciate any information you can share with us!

Messages in this topic (4)
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9c. Re: large breed puppy switching to raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 2:33 am ((PDT))

Hi, Rachel!

<snip>
> Until 8ish weeks of age, the breeder will be feeding a premium brand
> ki**!e designed for "large breed puppies". Is it true that large/giant
> breed puppies should have decreased protein in their diet to slow
> growth?

**** No, this is a fallacy. Raw isn't all protein.
Go here; http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

and check out the percentages of protein in the different meats (it
doesn't include edible bone, so the figures should be even lower)
Raw fed pups get a species appropriate diet, so the nutrients are more
bioavailable, their systems can process it easily, so they actually
grow more slowly, evenly and in a less herky jerky way than kibble fed
pups. ****

If so, how is this accommodated when feeding raw? When we
> first bring the puppy home should we wait to switch to raw until he
> has settled in, or is it ok to start right away?

**** No need to even have Doom Nuggets in the house. Toss whatever the
breeder gives you out the window on the way home. ^_^ ****

Do giant breed
> puppies also fit into the formula of 2% of their ideal adult weight =
> daily food weight? It's hard to imagine a puppy eating almost 2.5
> lbs/day...

You can feed a pup under 4 mo 10% of their ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT body
weight. After that, you will have a better handle on raw feeding, but
you may find yourself feeding closer to 4% up to a year old. Newfies
grow by leaps and bounds the first year! Usually year and a half, but
(s)he will continue to grow and mature well into the 3rd year. They
get big fast, but mature slow.
My Bea weighs 130 lbs, so if she were an 8 wo pup, and I was feeding
10% of her EIABW, which is often recommended for a pup under 4 mo, you
might be feeding up to 13 lbs daily, divided into 3 meals a day. I,
personally, wouldn't start with this figure, I'd start with a much
more conservative 6-7% (7.8-9.1 lbs), and adjust from there, 'cause
you don't want a roly poly Newf pup.
After 4 mo, you might want to go to the more conservative 4% of 130
lbs, so that would be 5.2 lbs daily. And adjust up or down as needed.
At about 6-7 mo, you'll want to go to 2 meals a day.
At about 10-12 mo, you can feed 1 meal a day. You might be able to
drop down to 3%, thats 3.9 lbs daily. Its all a matter of learning how
your dog looks, and how his ribs, backbone and hips feel at a good
weight, and adjusting up or down as needed. You should be able to feel
their bones under the muscle layer, but they shouldn't protrude to the
touch. ****

but I suppose that's one of the joys of raising a giant
> breed puppy.

**** You have NO IDEA, the joys that living with a Newfy will bring!
But, you will learn, heh heh. Did anyone mention the hair? And the
drool slinging? And the swamp around the water bowl? Or how they like
to sleep across doorways? And snore so loud the windows rattle? Or how
uncoordinated a pup that goes from 20 lbs at 8 wo to 60 lbs at 4-5 mo
can be? Or how strong? Or how, when they step on you, their nails can
bruise your foot right through a shoe? ^_^ ****

We really appreciate any information you can share with us!

YQW
TC and let us know hoe you progress with the little guy!
Giselle
>
> Thanks,
> Rachel (and Ben!)
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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9d. Re: large breed puppy switching to raw
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:33 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ben" <ben1721@...> wrote:
>
> Is it true that large/giant
> breed puppies should have decreased protein in their diet to slow
> growth?

Yes, if feeding kibble.

> If so, how is this accommodated when feeding raw?

Because you are feeding protein in its pure form, unprocessed. When
feeding raw, protein levels have no bearing.

> When we
> first bring the puppy home should we wait to switch to raw until he
> has settled in, or is it ok to start right away?

When I adopted my Thor at 12 weeks, his first meal here was raw. He
never ate kibble in this house.

> Do giant breed
> puppies also fit into the formula of 2% of their ideal adult weight =
> daily food weight?

Yes, after about 2 weeks of "break in" period, Thor was eating exactly
the same thing Abby (7yo Dane) ate. Same food, same amount.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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10. Re: 911 - please help
Posted by: "tantelin22@aol.com" tantelin22@aol.com tantelindar
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:07 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/1/2007 3:29:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com writes:

_Re: 911-PLEASE HELP _
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143030;_ylc=X3oDMTJzMWE2bDV1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzc0MjM1MjYEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3NDI
xMDgwBG1zZ0lkAzE0MzAzMARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMTkxMjY2OTcw)

How about a second opinion? I believe you took her to the nearest vet
because it was an emergency; totally the right decision. Now call your regular
vet, explain what happened and ask for the second opinion. Take the pup to her
regular vet and see what he says. Thank the first guy for saving her life
(even if it might not be true), because it's always good to have a pretty good
vet close enough for an emergency trip.

My regular vet is 25 miles away; there's a pretty good vet three blocks
away. Guess which one I'd dash to if my dog couldn't breathe? But any surgery
my dog gets takes place at the animal hospital where they have known him all
his life, where they have cared for my pets for 40 years.

<======================================== >
Blessed Be with An Honorable Peace!
Tante Lin

Maxine is my Hero! She says:
My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice.
Don't let aging get you down: it's too hard to get back up!
If you woke up breathing, congratulations!
You have another chance!
<===>

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: Are pork ribs tips safe?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 11:07 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carol!
Tiny dogs often have 'faster' metabolisms, so many need a
higher percentage - sometimes as much as 4-6%.

If your dogs are far enough along the introductory road, you can
introduce them to one meal a day, maybe. Some littles do well on that,
some need two, or more meals a day to maintain bs levels and keep from
going hypoglycemic on you.

You can always feed something BIG, let them work on it awhile, then
take it up when you judge they've had enough. A lot of people do this,
even with bigger dogs. My Bea, who is 130lbs., sometimes will eat from
a fresh pork ham for several days before finishing it off. The idea is
to for her eat gorge 'n fast style a couple times a month, but she
decides if thats what she wants to do. So, if she isn't going to
finish the thing, I trade her for a few small yummy snackies, then
plop it in the fridge until the next day, or the day after that,
depending on how much she got on the outside of.

You could feed your littles off of the same large portion,
alternately, or offer each of them their own large portion, and trade
them when you've judged they've eaten enough for that meal. I wrap
leftover meat in an old kitchen towel, as the outside dries out a bit
this way, and it doesn't seep much, or get rank.

As you can probably guess, the measuring and weighing went out the
window for me a long time ago. It can serve a purpose early on, and I
quote the accepted percentages in my 'how to start feeding raw'
suggestions, 'cause newbies DO NOT want to hear "Just feed them as
much as they want, regularly, until its obvious you need to cut back.
Then tweak the amounts up or down as needed, as often as needed, for
the rest of their lives." at first. ^_^

Unnnnh, yeah. maybe. The Yorkie's 2% would work out to 2.72oz a day,
but 2 meals a day would put her at about 1 & 1/2 oz each meal, not 1/5
oz at a meal. Did you mean to say, 1.5oz per meal?

And the larger %s will look like this;
6% of 12 lbs = (326.586506 grams) / (28.3495231 grams) = 11.52 oz

5% of 12 lbs = (272.155422 grams) / (28.3495231 grams) = 9.60000001 oz

4% of 12lbs = (217.724338 grams) / (28.3495231 grams) = 7.68000002 oz

3% of 12 lbs = (163.293253 grams) / (28.3495231 grams) = 5.76 oz

2% of 12 lbs = (108.862169 grams) / (28.3495231 grams) = 3.84000001 oz
______________________________________________________________________

6% of 8.5 lbs =(231.332109 grams) / (28.3495231 grams) = 8.16000002 oz

5% of 8.5 lbs = (192.776757 grams) / (28.3495231 grams) = 6.8 oz

4% of 8.5 lbs = (154.221406 grams) / (28.3495231 grams) = 5.44000001oz

3% of 8.5 lbs = (115.666054 grams) / (28.3495231 grams) = 4.07999999oz

2% of 8.5 lbs = (77.1107029 grams) / (28.3495231 grams) = 2.72 ounces

I think you should have to email me some chocolate for making my head
hurt with all these calcs - even if I did make Google calc do the
actual figuring. ; 0
TC
Giselle

> Hi Giselle,
> Thank you for the response. With my 12 lb. dachshund, 2% is just
under 4oz of raw per day. Divided into 2 meals, that is 2oz of raw
each meal. How do I feed bigger than their head and keep the amount
down to their daily allowance?
>
> With my 8.5lb Yorkie, her meal allowance is 1/5oz and she wants
MORE! I think she would eat a piece as big as her head if allowed, LOL!
>
> Am I figuring these amounts correctly? Neither is losing weight.
> 12lb x 16oz = 192oz weight x .02 = 3.84oz total daily allowance.
> 8.5lb x 16oz = 136oz weight x .02= 2.72oz total daily allowance.
> I round these up to 4oz and 3oz.
>
> Carol

Messages in this topic (5)
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12a. Re: Feeding Amounts
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 12:40 am ((PDT))

Hi, Krystal!
<snip>
> I have read multiple times about the 2-3% of their weight for amounts
> and the 80%meat, 10%bone, 10%organ, but I am a "put tab A in slot B"
> kind of person so I was wondering if someone with approx the same size
> dogs could tell me what their weekly meals look like? It just seems
> like a lot of bone to give Titus half a chicken, or do you give the
> chicken with chunks of other meat? I am just struggling to
> conceptualize what 10% bone looks like?

**** Well, Krystal, its just a guideline, an approximation, a starting
point. But, most new-to-raw peeps and peeps who come here for help who
have been feeding other 'raw diet' plans feed waaay to much bone. Some
of the premade ground raw brands have almost more bone than meat, and
to that they add lots of veggies! And, add to that a lot of peeps come
here with that whole 'feed your dog RMBs' idea - which are mostly
INedible bone, nor meaty, then you can see why we stress a smaller
edible bone percentage. If everyone were able to feed a variety of
whole prey, appropriately sized for their particular dogs, there would
be no need for quoting percentages; each prey has its own 'perfect'
ratio of meatymeat to bone to organ.

But, you are still on the 'start with a whole chicken' introductory
phase; chickens are bonier than some other variety proteins. After you
get a few different proteins on the menu, you can start feeding
boneless meals, and it will all balance out. "Balance Over Time." is
one of the raw feeding mottos - peeps new-to-raw should have to chant
it as a mantra. You'll have your dogs entire lifetimes to tweak and
balance their feeding plan. It never stops.

That said, imagine 4 - 4 oz raw frozen hamburger patties, like you
would buy in the freezer section of a supermarket. Thats a pound.
Imagine cutting one of them into 8 wedges, like a pie. Three of those
wedges is a little smaller than 1.6 oz, which is 10% of a pound. So,
for every pound of food your dog eats, 1.6 oz of that would be bone.
Does that help at all?

If you must measure and weigh, you can use Google calculator to figure
the amounts to feed each dog according to their weight and the
different percentages.

http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en
Type in, say Titus' estimated IDEAL ADULT weight will be 100 lbs., so
3% of 100 lbs into the search box and click. That'll give you 3% of
(100 pounds) = 1.36077711 kilograms. To convert to ounces instead of
kgrams, type in 1.36077711 kilograms / 453.5923696 grams and click.
The answer will be (1.36077711 kilograms) / (453.5923696 grams) = 3
pounds. 3 pounds a day would be his daily portion using the 3% figure,
divided by however many meals you would feed in a day.
For Mino, I'm assuming she might be at her EIABW, but lets use 70 lbs.
3% of 70 lbs = 952.543977 grams
(952.543977 grams) / (453.5923696 grams) = 2.1 lbs daily ****

> Also, if we are going to be doing coursing and they are burning a
lot of
> calories, is their a rule for how much to increase their protein
> intake? Or is that another one of those things I'll have to figure out
> as I go along?

**** Yes. and yes. ^_^ There's no catchy phrase that I'm aware of,
but it comes down to getting used to frequently evaluating what and
how much you are feeding each dog, what their activity level is, or
will be, and being able to look at them, feel of their ribs, their
backbones, their hip bones and tweaking and adjusting the diet plan
accordingly. Maybe, "Know Thy Dog?"

Oh, and if you want a copy of the book Bill recommended, don't buy it.
I have a copy of it from when it was free. Its a .pdf file, I can
share it with you if you have Adobe Reader. I haven't read it cover to
cover, just skimmed it. But except for the wordiness, references to
raw meaty bones, recommending feeding stripped chicken & turkey
carcasses, and the veggies & fruits he *seems* to advocate, its OK.
0_0 ****

TC
Giselle

>
> Thanks again for the help,
> Krystal
> Ridgebacks are like potato chips, you can't have just one!
>

Messages in this topic (12)
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12b. Re: Feeding Amounts
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:33 am ((PDT))

Let's see if I can remember what I have been feeding in the past week. Tycho, my 6mo
Newf mix, about 60lbs? (though I haven't weighed him in ages) ate roughly the following:

I don't weigh anything, so please forgive the lack of measurements
Day 1 - pork shoulder and glob o' liver
Day 2 - pork shoulder
Day 3 - last bit of pork shoulder w/bone and 1/2 beef tongue
Day 4 - goat (leg part of 6 way cut)
Day 5 - rest of goat
Day 6 - whole chicken (about 4lbs)
Day 7 - beef heart

Tycho doesn't eat the same amount every day, he gets his meal and eats until he's done.
Sometimes a 7lb pork shoulder will last three days, sometimes only two. Though his
variety isn't superb right now (mom forgot to order from the buying group recently), he
eats a bunch of different things. At the start you don't want to throw all of this variety at
your pups because you'll end up with cannon butt. Hope that helps a little.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Loraine Jesse <rothburg@...> wrote:

> I too would like to hear sample menues, say for a week, that you would feed a pup.
> Sometimes it is all so simple and easy that I think I must be missing something <grin>.

Messages in this topic (12)
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12c. Re: Feeding Amounts
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:33 am ((PDT))

I weighed an average thigh/leg & use the general percentage chart but am
watching their weight & hunger level. My Danes are giant breed so it's a
matter of them growing & their changing eating habits (they are puppies: 7
mos, 5 mos & 4 mos). The little Lhasas i can monitor their weights. Two
are seniors & were on diets to lose weight & the 2 year old isn't spayed yet
but will be soon (she's crippled & only 10 pounds) so i do believe I am
feeding them too much!! I will have much more trial/error with them!!
I also cut the whole chickens in half & the weight is on the package of
those. I AM A NEWBIE TO THIS so i am only telling you my first week's
experience.
I give the neck to whomever might have a bit for runny poop.
a wee bit of liver (and i mean a WEE bit!!) Just a slight flavour. Louie
hates it (I can't say as i blame him) but the others love it so introducing
bigger bites as needed will be easy when the time comes.
They all like raw burger (pill giving & treat balls now & then).
Just a side note here: I went to raw knowing I may have to deal with runny
poop BUT my Dane pups (from different breeders) have always had loose
stools! tests showed they were 'normal': no parasite, giardia, coccidia,
nadda......just sensitive bellies/intestines & we were feeding two of them
special diet food. My friend's Danes: same story! Whisper was on boiled
chicken ONLY when she first came home for over a month.
I didn't care about dealing with runs much since I been battling it anyway!
Louie had to go on medicine for two weeks, then 2 weeks later, again, over &
over... he never had solid stools. Today Whisper had solid stools for the
second time on this diet! Thank goodness because during her seizure, she
had an 'accident' so this diet made a HUGE difference & she also had an
accident at my store after the vet visit today & it was just a paper towel
terd pick up. OMG what a relief & such a.... well, I was happy! Too happy
for the normal person to be about a dog's poo!
Trina
(who needs sleep!)

--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

On 10/2/07, Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Krystal!
> <snip>
> > I have read multiple times about the 2-3% of their weight for amounts
> > and the 80%meat, 10%bone, 10%organ, but I am a "put tab A in slot B"
> > kind of person so I was wondering if someone with approx the same size
> > dogs could tell me what their weekly meals look like? It just seems
> > like a lot of bone to give Titus half a chicken, or do you give the
> > chicken with chunks of other meat? I am just struggling to
> > conceptualize what 10% bone looks like?
>
> **** Well, Krystal, its just a guideline, an approximation, a starting
> point. But, most new-to-raw peeps and peeps who come here for help who
> have been feeding other 'raw diet' plans feed waaay to much bone. Some
> of the premade ground raw brands have almost more bone than meat, and
> to that they add lots of veggies! And, add to that a lot of peeps come
> here with that whole 'feed your dog RMBs' idea - which are mostly
> INedible bone, nor meaty, then you can see why we stress a smaller
> edible bone percentage. If everyone were able to feed a variety of
> whole prey, appropriately sized for their particular dogs, there would
> be no need for quoting percentages; each prey has its own 'perfect'
> ratio of meatymeat to bone to organ.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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