[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12100

There are 14 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: How often for different organs?
From: Carol Dunster

2. moving on to next protien
From: Heather

3. {raw feeding} Link for Graigs list
From: Brandi Bryant

4a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: Barb

5a. Re: Day 4 of Raw and WILD!
From: T Smith
5b. Re: Day 4 of Raw and WILD!
From: Barb

6. runns in house & gagging!
From: T Smith

7a. Re: Day 4 of Raw and WILD! and other info/questions
From: lauraanimal1

8. Prepared Raw
From: Dcaloosa

9a. Re: Rescues
From: Howard Salob

10. tripe smell on hands
From: Dawn Ruhl

11a. Re: Cheap meat
From: carolejc2007

12a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
From: desheep59

13a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Update on Max
From: Howard Salob

Messages
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1a. Re: How often for different organs?
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 4:25 am ((PDT))

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 04:13:14 -0000, you wrote:

>I wouldn't feed a whole meal of organs to any dog I wasn't sure could
>tolerate it. Feeding whole meals of squidgey ick organs is a sure
>recipe for cannon butt. Toleration often can be built up over time.

Is that the main reason for not feeding more organ meat? What are the
good points and the bad ones for liver, for instance? (I have a large
supply of quality organ meat, but can find other stuff I'm sure.)
~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (4)
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2. moving on to next protien
Posted by: "Heather" hpav061378@yahoo.com hpav061378
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 4:25 am ((PDT))

ok I am getting ready to move onto pork for my greyhounds. I stayed
alittle longer with the chicken and introduced the liver alittle at a
time becase of sensitive tummies and cannon butt. I want to try some
pork now but dont know what to start with. My Leo needs more bone in
his diet so what can yall suggest for me? thanks Heather

Messages in this topic (1)
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3. {raw feeding} Link for Graigs list
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 4:25 am ((PDT))

I tried getting it though yahoo groups and didn't come up with
anything. Does any one have the actual link?

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "Barb" behaven1@telus.net behavensnikko
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 4:25 am ((PDT))

Carrie, may I cross post what you have written? Sounds exactly what I
have said for years & would like to send it to a stubborn individual
who brushes statements that I make & would do the same to you
too,I'm guessing. Need your backup please!Sorry, needed to post the
whole message,moderators.:)
Cheers/Barb
Behaven Shelties--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cypressbunny"
<cypressbunny@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Caren OConnor <cavkist@> wrote:
> >
> > Excess calcium from the bone is always excreted in the stool?
Can
> you confirm?
>
> *** In rawfed pups? Yes, within reason. I'm not advocating a diet
> really heavy in bone, but you can observe the phenomenon yourself
by
> looking at the stool. If you feed 10-15% bone, the stool will be
> some shade of brown, from tan if you are feeding white meats, to
> dark brownish black for red and organ meats. As you increase the
> bone content, the stools lighten in color. If you feed a lot of
> bone, the stools will be whitish and chalky.
>
> *** Also, based on my own observations as well as talking with
other
> NR breeders, rawfed puppies seem to deal much better with "too
much"
> bone than kibblefed pups do with too much calcium. It is fairly
well
> documented that too much calcium in kibble does cause bony
> abnormalities and pano, but rawfed pups seem to have fewer problems
> with those things. A rawfeeding breeder who I respect very much has
> observed bowing out in her own pups when she didn't feed enough
> bone, but the problem corrected itself when she increased the bone
> content.
>
> *** So, I would evaluate the bone you are feeding and make sure
that
> it is at minimum 10% of the diet by weight, and preferably 15-20%.
> This is nature's model, which I trust far more than any scientific
> study. If you are feeding this amount of bone, I think diet is not
> the cause. It may be that this is just a phase that she will grow
> out of. Are there other rawfed pups from her litter?
>
> --Carrie
>

Messages in this topic (20)
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5a. Re: Day 4 of Raw and WILD!
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 4:25 am ((PDT))

I have noticed an energy increase in the pups but not sure that's such a
good thing with 3 Great Dane pups!
Yes, they sleep through the night, too.
I think these are positive. The runny poops & vomiting are getting to be
too much to deal with though.
Trina

On 9/30/07, aliciamyan <alicia_larson@msn.com> wrote:
>
> We are in our 4th day of feeding raw (whole bone-in chicken breasts)
> and one of our dogs seems to be adjusting...too well, if that's
> possible. Moose, almost 3yo GSD woke up this morning with more
> energy then he knew what to do with. He's also been sleeping very
> sound throughout the night and he looks forward to meal times with
> great anticipation - not so much when he was given kibble - take it
> or leave it attitude. My husband had to take him out to do the off-
> site farm chores by himself so he could run some of the "extra"
> energy off. Hubby said he took off across the cow pasture running
> and jumping like one of the calves. He was driving me nuts while I
> was trying to do my chores - bouncing around, back-talking when told
> to leave the barn, couldn't maintain his sit-stay for more than 30
> seconds. He is normally a very active, obedient dog, but today he is
> absolutely crazy with "joy"? Is it my imagination, or could raw
> really be affecting him this way so soon? Or visa-versa, was kibble
> slowing him down that much? His shedding and itcy skin are still an
> issue, but I expect that will take a good month or more to go away
> (hopefully). Haven't heard any of the belching from him like we have
> in the past either. Just curious if anyone else had similar
> experiences...
>
> Thanks,
> Alicia
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Day 4 of Raw and WILD!
Posted by: "Barb" behaven1@telus.net behavensnikko
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 4:26 am ((PDT))

-Wow!! Love hearing this! A happy GSD on raw! Keep it up!
Cheers/Barb
Behaven Shelties
Raw fed/Vaccine Free X 23+ years-

- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "aliciamyan" <alicia_larson@...> wrote:
>
> We are in our 4th day of feeding raw (whole bone-in chicken breasts)
> and one of our dogs seems to be adjusting...too well, if that's
> possible. Moose, almost 3yo GSD woke up this morning with more
> energy then he knew what to do with. > Alicia
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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6. runns in house & gagging!
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 4:25 am ((PDT))

Whisper (4 months old) had pooped 9watery with a few chunks in it0 twice in
my hall way. She also has been gagging: like a choking cough & coughing up
fluids.... ideas????????????
We are less than a week into raw.
She is in good spirits & acting normal except this.
She did get a beef bone to chew on, could this be the cause of this whole
mess??????
UGH
Frustrated
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: Day 4 of Raw and WILD! and other info/questions
Posted by: "lauraanimal1" lauraanimal1@yahoo.com lauraanimal1
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 4:27 am ((PDT))

Alicia,

Just 2-weeks ago I re-started my Rottie back on raw, She is doing as
your is, going back to it almost too well, and as you mentioned she
is normaly a very well behaved girl, even when she was very excited
about something. She seems to be crazy with joy as well. Driving me
crazy with all this new found energy, Normaly I take her out 5-6
times a week for her exercise, it is out on an wide open area of
land, I let her sniff arund and be a "dog" for a while then we play
fetch till she tires of chasing the ball, thats when she is ready
for her run, a 1 1/2 mile jaunt. I do this because we do not have
much of a yard and she needs her exercise and she realy enjoys it.
But now, with all this new energy she has increased her run to 2
miles, & on top of that "hounds" me all day long now wanting to go
run. If I tell her no and just let her outside, she just mops around
outside(when not eating) and then comes in and whines at the front
door, trotting back and forth between me and the door, over and over
and over again. doing her begging tricks and just all out begging to
go run, If i put her out in the back yard and close the door, she
scratches at it constatly, or eats(will explain more on this point
later) If let her in the house she wont listen to me when i tell her
to settle, I dont want to put her in the kennel for I know she will
just scratch and go crazy in it, and I dont want to do that to her.

I have tried increasing her excersize and doing a few more fetrch
games to help where her out threw out the day but I dont always have
the luxury to do it. So what i have done (this is where I explain
later /now) is because I am able to get carcasses of processed
antilope/elk in abundance right now, I pick ones that has loads of
meat left on it, and I leave that out all day for her to munch on.
It has helped to enough of a degree that she isnt annoying me
constantly, but still remains, extreamly energetic. I do this for
another reason as well the over abundance I have has totaly filled
my once empty 2 weeks ago freezer to the max, (trying to find
another one fast and cheap but not having any luck and I am on
freecycle here) So I am saving as much as i can stuff in the freezer
for later, putting my $ I normaly would have spent aside for meat
later, and feeding what they toss and I dont have room for now.

I am not sure how long this will last but I hope she settles down
soon. I know that to me that it makes sence that feeding raw can
affect her this fast being that her body can actualy absorbe and put
to use the proper food now compaired to the "other" stuff. As for
your statement about her coat, I think that viarys from dog to dog,
I know with mine, I have seen a differnace already. Like i said
before i go out to this place and let her be a "dog" one of the
things she like is if there is a mudd puddle/mini lake (one the
kids around here go mudding in) she loves to play in it, and I let
her at times just get down right muddy. well over the 1st 1 1/2
weeks i switched her I let her play in it daily, help her use up
some of the energy, well she was a down right mess, her coat was
Soooo dull from all the red mudd. I gave her a bath yesterday and
about fell over, her coat was son shinny I was amazed at the fast
change, but then I figured it had to do some with the fact she was
wet, but no it got even shinnier that she seems to glow almost. she
did lick her paws alot as well, but she has stoped doing that. other
then to clean them off from the raw which she doesnt like to get on
her paws either, but she is getting better at it, has no choice with
the types of and size she is getting right now.

She also had horrid gas,(send you retching out of the room) both
belching and passing all the time, it is almost gone, when she does
have gas either way it normaly doesnt smell or has very little smell
to it. breath smells so much better as well.

How ever I do have a few questions like you;
1. will this "crazy with joy" calm down? stop?
2. when she eats these carcasses, I have noticed she loves to eat
as much as the rib bone as possible, will this harm her? too much of
it? she will do this even with e a good 2-3 lb or more meat hunks on
them still, after she has eatn the ribs, then she devours the meat.
but her poo is very dry.
3. as someone else mentioned she is having eye drainage like crazy
now. Before when I put her on raw i didnt have the energy ordeal,
but i did have the eye discharge problem. had a vet look at it and
found out she did have inverted eyelids. but when she came off the
raw , they dried up alot, not completely but alot. I then had eye
surgery done to her to fix the eyeld problem. did great no eye
drainage other then what was normal when something got in it. Now
back on raw they are draining again like crazy, worse then what they
did the 1st time, she looks like she is "bawling" instead of crying
all the time. I know I read before about de-toxing, however she
wasnt on kibble as long as she had been when I 1st switched her,
over a year almost year and a half, and this time she was only off
raw for about 5-6 months. No vaccinations either. Will this stop? I
know it didnt until i stopped feeding raw last time.
4. I have recieved, some lamb heart,lung, esaphegus(sp?),liver,
splean, tripe and some of the same of a pig, as well as beef heart
and ox tails that i have frozen, I havent fed any of this because
that is not a constant at the moment, as well as freezing and saving
as much antilope/elk/deer as possible. I have also recieved and
frozen a pig and lamb, calf, elk, & antilope head and froze them. I
am only feeding the carcasses and some of the meat right now, I will
have access to that much of it daily for the next month or 2. Will
it hurt her to eat only that for now? I know it is prey model and in
the wild they would eat whatever they had access/abundace of and
later variy up the protiens. but I dont think they would have had
this much constant access to the antilope/deer/elk mixture. That is
the llose meat, the carcasses are mainly antilope right now. Maybe
later and elk, but depends on my neighbors;P
5. I happen to have access to a large amount of cow stomics, however
I have to take the whole 50 gallon thing and cut it up and process
it as neatly as possable in a barrel before taking it out of his gut
bens, tht doesnt bother me, what my problem is, he doesnt want it
spilled anywhere, how can I achieve this?

sorry for being long winded and thanks in advance for the help!!
Laura and a Very very energetic Ishta

We are in our 4th day of feeding raw (whole bone-in chicken
breasts)
> and one of our dogs seems to be adjusting...too well, if that's
> possible. Moose, almost 3yo GSD woke up this morning with more
> energy then he knew what to do with. He's also been sleeping very
> sound throughout the night and he looks forward to meal times with
> great anticipation - not so much when he was given kibble - take
it
> or leave it attitude. My husband had to take him out to do the
off-
> site farm chores by himself so he could run some of the "extra"
> energy off. Hubby said he took off across the cow pasture running
> and jumping like one of the calves. He was driving me nuts while
I
> was trying to do my chores - bouncing around, back-talking when
told
> to leave the barn, couldn't maintain his sit-stay for more than 30
> seconds. He is normally a very active, obedient dog, but today he
is
> absolutely crazy with "joy"? Is it my imagination, or could raw
> really be affecting him this way so soon? Or visa-versa, was
kibble
> slowing him down that much? His shedding and itcy skin are still
an
> issue, but I expect that will take a good month or more to go away
> (hopefully). Haven't heard any of the belching from him like we
have
> in the past either. Just curious if anyone else had similar
> experiences...
>
> Thanks,
> Alicia
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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8. Prepared Raw
Posted by: "Dcaloosa" Dcaloosa@aol.com Dcaloosa
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 5:23 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS PLEASE!

I am transitioning to raw for my Rotties and am happy with the results
so far, but as yet have not taken the plunge into preparing it
myself.....due to many reasons that may be resolved someday.....like
work, freezer space, etc......but anyway, does anyone have experience
using the top quality prepared raw diets, like Halshan, Bravo, etc? I
am experimenting with them. Please feel free to bombard me with info!

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Rescues
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 5:23 am ((PDT))

Dear Denise,

I am proud of what you do. Please keep up the great work..}

Sincerely,

Howard

Denise Strother <denisestrother@yahoo.com> wrote:
I treat my fosters as my own, so of course I feed raw. I also don't
adopt to anyone not interested in keeping the dog on raw and at least
minimal vaccs. I also don't take a dog that I'm not willing to
be "stuck" with. But then I most often take dogs with behavioral or
health problems that are fixable, but sometimes long term, because raw
can help in both these cases. Denise

those of you who work in rescue - foster homes, in particular - do you
feed the fosters raw along with your dogs?

---------------------------------
Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.

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10. tripe smell on hands
Posted by: "Dawn Ruhl" Dawnofthedanes@mac.com dawnofthedanes
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 6:06 am ((PDT))

Oh, boy... do I know about tripe smell on the hands!
I ground up over 2,700 lbs of it bare handed just last week! <g>
I have no trouble getting the smell of of my hands, when I wash
my hands with Lemon Joy and then follow with the cheap
GERM-X hand sanitizer from Walmart. I do recommend using
a nail brush when washing, too! Or, you could use whatever
family member you are mad at's toothbrush. LOL

A word of advice when you can't seem to get rid of a smell..
rinse out and blow your nose AFTER washing your hands...
the smell just might still be in your nose.

~;*;~ Dawn ~;*;~
"There's enough for a Bull, There's enough for a Bear,
But, there's never enough for a Pig"- John P Ruhl Sr.
http://www.dawnofthedanes.com

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11a. Re: Cheap meat
Posted by: "carolejc2007" mooska2me@sbcglobal.net carolejc2007
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 6:06 am ((PDT))

What heading did you list your ad? I was looking on Craig's List
and really could not determine that.

Thanks!

Carole

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "girlndocs" <girlndocs@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Alicia,
>
> > Can you share how you worded your ads?
>
> Sure. I headed it something like "Wanted: meat scrap, trim and
other
> discard. Cleaning your freezer? Read this!"
>
> The ad itself said that I "make my own dog food" and freezer
burned or
> slightly "ripe" meat may not be good for humans but it's just fine
for
> dogs. I also listed an idea of the parts of animals I'm looking
for: I
> mentioned that I can use feet and organs (especially liver and
> stomach/tripe) from beef, poultry, pork, goat and lamb, and that I
> also use fish.
>
> Kristin
>

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12a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
Posted by: "desheep59" desheep59@northmo.net desheep59
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 6:07 am ((PDT))

I don't know where you live, but there's one list I know about that
has sources of meat - CarnivoreFeed-Supplier - that has individuals
all over the U.S. with different types of meats.

I am on that list as a supplier and my lamb is raised without hormones
or indiscriminate use of antibiotics. It's not certifiable as
organic, but it's close. The only problem is that shipping ups the
cost significantly as does butchering.

Checking the closest rural area for farmers or local butchers (and not
the USDA guys) you might be surprised at what you can find and I'm not
talking just on the cheap either - but local farmers who either do not
believe in additives or cannot afford them.

I've also heard about the 'packaged raw diets' but I've never fed them
and don't know anyone who does.

And my last statement will draw lots of fire, I'm sure, but since we
have taken the animals out of the wild and done our selective breeding
- intentionally or not - I'm not 100% convinced that raw IS best for
all of our companion animals. They've been raised for sooo many years
on the grain based diets that it is possible some of them will not
thrive on the raw because of this latest genetic programming OR
because of individual idiosyncrasies.

I like raw - my dogs like raw (most of them anyway) - but I will not
condemn anyone who changes for the welfare of the animal.

Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Steffani Martino"
<yahoogroups800@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, so I know there have been several "I feel like giving up" threads
> lately, but add me to the list. While I have been really trying to
avoid
> trying to go back to finding a really good, high quality pet food,
it seems
> as if feeding raw has become more and more of a hassle for my 2
dogs. I
> have been feeding raw for almost a year.

Messages in this topic (10)
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13a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Update on Max
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 6:27 am ((PDT))

Good job Chris and Ann. Keep up the great work.

SIncerely,

Howard

Brandi Bryant <bbryant573@gmail.com> wrote:
I wanted to update all of you on Max, and take a minute to personally
thank Chris O and Michael and Anne Moore for helping me!! First,
history just in case you don't know the fully situation.

Max is my 8 will be 9 this November German Shepherd. He's been bald
from back behind his withers down to his tail, down all 4 legs, on his
belly. He has chewed himself raw in places where they were bleeding
and he had goopy eyes. I could see fleas on him, so I asked for help
off list.

Following the advice, I gave him one vial of Frontline, just him no
one else. Got some Fish Oil, giving him 4 in the morning and 4 in the
evening. He won't take it like my other dogs, so I have to snip the
end of it off and put the oil on a pork chop, or chicken or cheese.
But I'm making sure that he does get it! And I have ordered some DE.
Well the results are that he's stopped itching quite so much, and he's
starting to grow his hair back. His eyes have stopped getting so
icky... he's getting better.

So, thank you so much to Chris O and Ann Moore for all the advice that
you've given me....I really do appreciated it!!

Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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