[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12091

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
From: Michelle Grabert
1b. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
From: ginny wilken

2a. Re: Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
From: Laura Atkinson
2b. Re: Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
From: Michelle Grabert
2c. Re: Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
From: costrowski75
2d. Re: Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
From: ginny wilken
2e. Re: Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
From: Michelle Grabert

3a. Re: bones in poo!
From: costrowski75

4a. ADMIN/Re:Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
From: costrowski75
4b. ADMIN/Re:Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
From: costrowski75

5a. newbie - few questions
From: Heather
5b. Re: newbie - few questions
From: carnesbill

6a. Thin Dog
From: CRYSTAL
6b. Re: Thin Dog
From: carnesbill
6c. Re: Thin Dog
From: cypressbunny

7a. Kate and Joey's 4th B-Day Party!!!!
From: Susanne MacLeod
7b. Re: Kate and Joey's 4th B-Day Party!!!!
From: cypressbunny
7c. Re: Kate and Joey's 4th B-Day Party!!!!
From: Susanne MacLeod

8a. Re: New member - probably silly question
From: girlndocs

9a. new to raw with a question
From: abeautiful3
9b. Re: new to raw with a question
From: Elizabeth

10a. What to do?
From: rottincherrie

11a. Re: raw meat only
From: linoleum5017

Messages
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1a. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:48 pm ((PDT))

hmm, interesting , yet odd. Thanks mary. BTW, how do you trim a post? I am getting yelled at. I think,. michelle

Mary Whetsel <chickiboo@gmail.com> wrote: About feeding goldfish to cats... I had asked this question earlier on
rawcat (which if you are feeding cats raw, I highly recommend you join) and
got some positive feedback, but again that wasn't for a steady diet. I just
needed to get rid of some extras in my pond.

One of my cats did eat the head only of one of the larger fish (about 4
inches) but that was it. The rest of the fish didn't interest her at all.
On the other hand she loves other whole fish from the grocery store. I also
tried leaving them out overnight for the strays, and unlike other leavings,
they were never touched. I can't say what other cats might think, but mine
didn't seem to approve.

-Mary

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Messages in this topic (15)
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1b. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:44 pm ((PDT))

"brake4breyers832" <pebbles_diehl@...> wrote:
*****
> I would be leary about feeding goldfish bought from a pet store.
Most
> of them live in water that was treated to neutralize chemicals,
> chlorine, etc. and all the bottles I ever used said to not use it for
> fish that will be consumed.
*****
My guess is once they've been fully acclimated to their forever home
they will be or become suitable food. Seems like part of feeding a
species appropriate diet to a fish includes raising the fish in an
appropriate environment.

Probably more complicated than I know.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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1c. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:51 pm ((PDT))

Michelle Grabert <chalienme@...> wrote:
>
> ya know I got to thinking more about the goldfish idea and it dawned
on me that back had fish tanks, I would have to add a few different
chemicals to the water for ph, algea, whatnot.
*****
I don't know how much you have to manipulate their environment. I
suspect adding chemicals to goldfish tanks is part of the kibble
mentality but I don't rightly know. If you were to create an
appropriate environment none of that might be necessary. I mean, carp
are ubiquitous, so clearly they get along somehow.

Is there such a place as a holistic fish list?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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1d. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:29 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 28, 2007, at 4:51 PM, costrowski75 wrote:
> I don't know how much you have to manipulate their environment. I
> suspect adding chemicals to goldfish tanks is part of the kibble
> mentality but I don't rightly know. If you were to create an
> appropriate environment none of that might be necessary. I mean, carp
> are ubiquitous, so clearly they get along somehow.
>
> Is there such a place as a holistic fish list?
> Chris O

When's THIS thread going to Rawchat? Yes on the environment. Algae
doesn't get unnaturally out of hand in a nice, big, well-balanced
tank or pond. People don't like it because it grows on the glass and
ornaments. I remove mine physically, by scraping or scrubbing. Water
conditioners that neutralize chlorine and chloramines are safe and
get used up in the process. Watch out for the ones with plastic that
coats the fish's skin. Drugs should never be necessary in a good
environment.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (15)
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2a. Re: Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:50 pm ((PDT))

Heck, I use Pill Pockets (tm) that I order or buy at PetSmart. Life's too
short to worry that hard about little things like what to wrap around a
pill.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

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Messages in this topic (12)
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2b. Re: Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:22 pm ((PDT))

hey, I had no idea you could get canned tripe..where do you get that>? michelle

meg_helmes <mhelmes@gmail.com> wrote: I have a few dogs needing medications.
> One is my Dal & he takes alot of medicines. He's old & sick & cranky!
> I usually give it in a ball of canned food but would like to give it in
> something raw based...I don't want to feed the canned crap any more.
> Hamburger? I am hearing alot more on a different list about feeding raw
> burger...

Trina-
My dog needs to take meds twice daily, and I use ground turkey
meatballs, ground hamburger, or canned ground tripe (brand name
Tripett). Ground shouldn't be the main of your dog's diet, but it
makes a great pill delivery system and kong stuffer (just freeze it!).
You can also use cheese, cream cheese, etc. It's not a huge part of my
dog's diet, so I don't worry about it too much. I put it in the treats
category.

~Meg & Ruby the wonderpup

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Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

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Messages in this topic (12)
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2c. Re: Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:47 pm ((PDT))

Michelle Grabert <chalienme@...> wrote:
>
> hey, I had no idea you could get canned tripe..where do you get
that>?
*****
LOL
The issue isn't where, but why.
If you can imagine it, canned tripe is cooked. Tripe isn't required at
all; to feed it cooked is I think beyond the pale.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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2d. Re: Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:23 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 28, 2007, at 3:50 PM, Laura Atkinson wrote:

> Heck, I use Pill Pockets (tm) that I order or buy at PetSmart.
> Life's too
> short to worry that hard about little things like what to wrap
> around a
> pill.

I saw those at a store the other day, and came away thinking they
were fairly evil as far as ingredients:) I use chunks of meat with
little pockets cut in, or ground, or handfuls of tripe, or anything
I'm eating chewed flat and wrapped around them.

ginny and Tomo, pills, pills, pills, and now the Metacam, which
doesn't taste near as good as they say, apparently. It goes in soup
or pureed liver.

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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2e. Re: Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:53 pm ((PDT))

Gosh folks. Peanut buttter~ they all LOVE it, and stick ny size pill in it and swish swipe gone with a lick for more./ Michelle

ginny wilken <gwilken@alamedanet.net> wrote:
On Sep 28, 2007, at 3:50 PM, Laura Atkinson wrote:

> Heck, I use Pill Pockets (tm) that I order or buy at PetSmart.
> Life's too
> short to worry that hard about little things like what to wrap
> around a
> pill.

I saw those at a store the other day, and came away thinking they
were fairly evil as far as ingredients:) I use chunks of meat with
little pockets cut in, or ground, or handfuls of tripe, or anything
I'm eating chewed flat and wrapped around them.

ginny and Tomo, pills, pills, pills, and now the Metacam, which
doesn't taste near as good as they say, apparently. It goes in soup
or pureed liver.

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Messages in this topic (12)
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3a. Re: bones in poo!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:31 pm ((PDT))

"patti.h310" <patti.h310@...> wrote:
>I thought chix wing were the
> perfect bone to meat ratio, so he's been getting those pretty
> regularly (we're only about 3 weeks into raw)
*****
They may qualify for perfection in someone's formula but that
relationship of meat to bone is not part of Ma Nature's big plan.
The reason many of us recommend people buy and feed through whole
chickens is to overcome--or at least confront--feeding lots of bone.

When you feed through whole birds (however long it takes for a dog to
eat through a bird) you are feeding some meaty parts and some bony
parts but by the time you have fed through the bird you have fed a
practical approximation of whole prey.

(Whole processed birds come to market skewed towards bone, so once
you've gotten a sense of what the kid can eat, you might consider
adding some extra meat to particularly bony body parts (like wings
and necks).

What about leg
> quarters? Are those bones too hard?
****
Mostly not too hard. Maybe for very young or very small dogs. You
would be surprised what those carnivorous little teeth can accomplish.

Good news though, he just ate
> lamb!
*****
Lamb is positively lovely.

I have only
> fed him beef ribs a couple times. Thats what gave him loose stools.
*****
My guess is the fat content was responsible for the loose stools;
also a good chew--a really good chew--can cause loose stools as well,
sort like unusually intense exercise can. You can always try the
ribs later. No rush.

But beef liver doesn't interest him.
*****
Liver is non-negotiable, but you can try other than beef liver.
Chicken liver is fine; pork liver seems less potent than beef, so
consider that as well.

> Another question.....are turkey legs or wings ok?
*****
Depends on the dog. I don't feed wings to my retrievers unless
they're attached to a larger section of turkey; I do feed legs but
mostly leg quarters. Sometimes the long leg bone spooks new
rawfeeders. If you aren't comfortable with it, you can return to it
later as well.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. ADMIN/Re:Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:34 pm ((PDT))

This subject is really too far-ranging to fit onto Rawfeeding. I
suggest you all move it lock stock and barrel to RawChat, where the
various issues can be better addressed.

Specific diet questions of course can always be posted to Rawfeeding.
Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (12)
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4b. ADMIN/Re:Feeding pills in RAW/Temperment & RAW
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:43 pm ((PDT))

Please, if the topic is not raw food, please direct your post to
RawChat where behavior issues can be discussed.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (12)
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5a. newbie - few questions
Posted by: "Heather" heather_b_bunny@yahoo.com heather_b_bunny
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

Hi all,
I am fairly new to the raw /prey diet - I have a small dog, a mutt named Gabby
- don't know what she is really looks like a bit of a cross between a corgi and
a pom but who knows. I've had her on a raw diet for about 6 months now that her
homeopath suggested. She gets raw meaty bones - I had no idea I could give her
raw chicken bones - I have stuck mainly to ground meats, but now that I am
reading your posts and am having my eyes opened to more options - is this a
good place to ask for some guidance about giving my dog portions of bird
carcasses - I think a 20 pound dog is too small for a whole chicken - yeah?

And I am reading not to feed vegetables - but gabby really likes them, she will
even eat the stalks that my brussels sprouts come one, it's like a bone to her.
Should I stop giving it to her?

Thanks much, any input would be helpful, there is a kosher butcher in my
neighborhood so I can easily go visit him for her food.

thanks again,
Heather

Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Re: newbie - few questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Heather <heather_b_bunny@...> wrote:
>
> I think a 20 pound dog is too small for a whole chicken - yeah?

For one feeding, yeah, but you can make several meals out of a chicken
or do as I do. I feed only chicken quarters and backs. To me it's
much easier and I don't have to chop up whole chickens.

> And I am reading not to feed vegetables - but gabby really
> likes them, she will
> even eat the stalks that my brussels sprouts come one, it's like
> a bone to her.
> Should I stop giving it to her?

It would be better to stop feeding them as meals, but as a treat, they
would be great. I like cake, cookies, candy, and ice cream but I
don't eat them as whole meals or even as large parts of a meal but a
little after a good meal is real good. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Thin Dog
Posted by: "CRYSTAL" cryrolfe@msn.com tailspinz04
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))

I have a Boston terrier. He is a little bit over a year old and has
always been on a raw diet. He mostly eats chicken and beef and fish
once a week. I guess he averages about a half pound a day and he's
18lbs.
His stools look fine.
He seems to be very lean to me. I can see his ribs slightly and he
doesn't have a lot of muscle.
He has always been very lethargic by nature....very laid back and low
key...reminds me of a Bassett.

My vet says some dogs are just lean and his lethargic nature may also
be just natural.
I know some dogs don't fill out til they're about 2yrs old sometimes.

I guess I'm just a worrier, but is there anything more I should be
giving him to help put on some weight?
Are there some tests that I should maybe get for him?

Thanks guys,
Crystal

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Thin Dog
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:14 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "CRYSTAL" <cryrolfe@...> wrote:
>
> I guess I'm just a worrier, but is there anything more I should be
> giving him to help put on some weight?
> Are there some tests that I should maybe get for him?

Keep him thin. It's much healthier for him. Get him some exercise.
That is usually good for lethargy. By exercise, I don't mean a walk
around the block. Get him running, chasing a ball or stick or frisbee
or something. Maybe get him into agility or something that expends
energy. It would do you both good.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Thin Dog
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:05 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "CRYSTAL" <cryrolfe@...> wrote:
>
> I have a Boston. I guess he averages about a half pound a day
>he's 18lbs.
> He seems to be very lean to me.

*** Lean is good. Is he thinner than this dog?
http://rawfed.com/issoudem.html

> He has always been very lethargic by nature

*** That seems a bit unusual for a Boston, but maybe he tends toward
the bulldog side of his heritage. Have you talked to his breeder
about typical temperment for his/her lines?

> My vet says some dogs are just lean and his lethargic nature may
> also be just natural.

*** If his vet isn't worried, there probably isn't much to worry
about.

> I guess I'm just a worrier, but is there anything more I should be
> giving him to help put on some weight?
> Are there some tests that I should maybe get for him?

*** I wouldn't try to get him fatter, but eating 3% of his
bodyweight daily AND being inactive makes me consider
hypothyroidism. Bostons are on the list of breeds predisposed to
this condition. If you want to be sure, have a 6-way thyroid panel
done on him.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Kate and Joey's 4th B-Day Party!!!!
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:33 pm ((PDT))

My kiddies are 4 years old today!!!! I splurged and bought them a
piece of a wild boar leg - they never had it before and then they had
milk fed veal liver for dessert!!!!!
They were OVER THE TOP for the wild boar! Here's the photoshow......

http://www.photoshow.net/watch/rv5ZK7hq

Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Kate and Joey's 4th B-Day Party!!!!
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:50 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@...>
wrote:
>
>
> http://www.photoshow.net/watch/rv5ZK7hq

*** Fantastic! Happy B-day to the furries, and congrats. How many 4
year old Frenchies have shiny white teeth like that? Not so many.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Kate and Joey's 4th B-Day Party!!!!
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:07 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Carrie - they are so friggin' healthy since switchin......it's
awesome!!!! Four years going on 14!!!!!
Hugs
Suz

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: New member - probably silly question
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi Trina,

> I had to chop the bone for my boy. unless you have another idea? He
> takes them and slides them down his thoat by turning his head side
> to side. The size doesn't matter & he WILL choke himself.
> So, what do you think is better to feed than a chicken quarter

> because that will not work for my 98 pound Dal.

Correction :) Size certainly WILL matter when the size is right --
that is, big enough. There is no way a half chicken, for example, is
going to slide down his throat.

I think you are right that a chicken quarter is not ideal -- because
it's not big enough. I feed quarters to my 80-lber and they are barely
big enough. Feed a half chicken, or a whole chicken and make it two
day's worth of food (either by taking it away when he's eaten about
half or by letting him eat the whole thing every other day with
fasting or a small snack on the days between).

Chopping is only going to increase the risk of choking. This is very
important! A bite-sized piece is absolutely ideal to be gulped down
whole, slide into the throat and plug it up beautifully. Please,
please let your dogs chomp, rip and tear -- stop chopping.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (13)
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9a. new to raw with a question
Posted by: "abeautiful3" abeautiful3@yahoo.com abeautiful3
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:13 pm ((PDT))

Hello everyone I have the six AB's that have been on raw for two weeks
now, I have been reading the messages and came across the one about
demodex my question is what is demodex?

Arlene

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: new to raw with a question
Posted by: "Elizabeth" rainsou1@yahoo.com rainsou1
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:07 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "abeautiful3" <abeautiful3@...> wrote:
my question is what is demodex?
>
> Arlene
>

Hi Arlene,
Demodex are tiny parasitic mites which live in or near hair follicles
of mammals. It's basically a type of mange. (Demodex canis)
-Liz

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. What to do?
Posted by: "rottincherrie" rottincherrie@yahoo.com rottincherrie
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:14 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES PLEASE.***

Hi everyone,

This is my very first post in rawfeeding. I am trying hard to convince
my dad to let us switch our dog to raw. His top excuses are:
1.) Too expensive (my sister is going to a private college and my dad
bought a new car)
2.) Gross
3.) He will get sick and die from food poisoning

And by then he has stopped talking and refuses to say anything more.

How to convince him? Our dog eats KIBBLE, poor dog! I don't know what
to do!

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: raw meat only
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:07 pm ((PDT))

Denise,

Glad to hear your good results, esp. w/ear infections. I have had
great results as well on rawfeeding. Just want to clarify that the
term 'scientific study' is not a relativistic term. Many may abuse
it, but that does not diminish the value of a truly scientific method.
Rather than devalue the term, let us look at the methods behind the so-
called study, and evaluate each for its method.

Lynne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Strother" wrote:

Besides, if you go by scientific studies, then you ought to know the
ones done by the dog food companies say that you should be feeding
their food anyway.

Messages in this topic (9)
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