[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12088

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
From: Casey Post
1b. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
From: Andrea
1c. Update on my "starving" dog
From: Dawn Ruhl
1d. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
From: carnesbill
1e. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
From: morkydzgrl
1f. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
From: Misty Sargent
1g. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
From: costrowski75
1h. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
From: qsgirl916

2a. Re: 2yr old dog new to raw, sick
From: morkydzgrl

3a. Re: Raw with Puppy.
From: merril Woolf

4a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Seizures
From: jrtsnabc

5a. Re: Confused about beef bones
From: Andrea
5b. Re: Confused about beef bones
From: Misty Sargent

6.1. Re: New to Raw
From: merril Woolf

7a. Re: How do I start?
From: Andrea

8a. Feeding rats? and fish types
From: brake4breyers832
8b. Re: Feeding rats? and fish types
From: Andrea
8c. Re: Feeding rats? and fish types
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: Caren OConnor
9b. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: Kevin Brown

10a. Re: demodex
From: Jocelyn Groner

11a. New member - probably silly question
From: petpalikali
11b. Re: New member - probably silly question
From: costrowski75

12. Beef feet
From: carolejc2007

13a. Re: Feeding Frozen RAW
From: rosey031801

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:57 am ((PDT))

> When I released her from her stay position, she rushed to her bowl
> and started sniffing and licking up the cheese. And then, she spent
> several minutes unearthing every "pocket" of cheese in that chicken.
> When she was done, the chicken stood alone and uneaten.
>
> I keep holding out, right?

Forgive me for coming in late to this discussion, but I have to ask - have
you tried another meat? Not all dogs actually *like* chicken and for me,
life it too short to try and force a dog to eat a meat he doesn't like (case
in point, my Lab and rabbit - he HATES rabbit).

Now I know that there are manipulative dogs out there who will work a human
to get what they want and I understand the need for tough loving them out,
sure. But if this were my dog, I'd try a little pork to see if it's not so
much raw that's an issue as maybe it's raw chicken that's the issue...

FWIW.

Casey

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:07 am ((PDT))

Yes, keep holding out. For the next feeding you can try searing both
sides on a really hot pan for a few seconds, just enough to make it
smell good. Have you tried putting it on a towel instead of inside a
bowl? She may be confused with a chunk of chicken in a bowl instead
of her usual food.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "qsgirl916" <qsgirl916@...> wrote:

> Day 2 - warmed up the chicken in warm water rubbed on a little
> garlic. No luck.
>
> Day 3 - Cut chicken into slightly smaller pieces and tucked cheese
> into some pockets I made in the meat. Then, I sprinkled a little
> cheese on top.
<snip>
> she rushed to her bowl and started sniffing and licking up the
> cheese. And then, she spent several minutes unearthing
> every "pocket" of cheese in that chicken. When she was done, the
> chicken stood alone and uneaten.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Update on my "starving" dog
Posted by: "Dawn Ruhl" Dawnofthedanes@mac.com dawnofthedanes
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

You may have to get serious... don't feed her until she begs!

If a 24 hour fast didn't work, she
sounds like she thinks she has your number. <G>
If she is in good health, go for 2 days of not offering anything.
I have heard of folks who had dogs like her, and once they got
them to switch... they truly adored the raw!
No one in the house is giving her treats, are they?

~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~
I keep holding out, right?

Sarah

~;*;~ Dawn ~;*;~
"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look
at how many want in ... And how many want out." Tony Blair
http://dawnofthedanes.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:11 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "qsgirl916" <qsgirl916@...> wrote:
>
> I keep holding out, right?

Absolutely! I wouldn't have done as much as you. I would put the
food down and walk away. It's her choice whether or not to eat. She
won't starve. Eventually she will give in.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
Posted by: "morkydzgrl" ShankMa4@aol.com morkydzgrl
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:43 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "qsgirl916" <qsgirl916@...> wrote:
>
> When I released her from her stay position, she rushed to her bowl
> and started sniffing and licking up the cheese. And then, she spent
> several minutes unearthing every "pocket" of cheese in that
chicken.
> When she was done, the chicken stood alone and uneaten.
>
> I keep holding out, right?

I am new to this too. I am two months in. My dog really acted like
your dog ... only I put cooked pieces of lamb into the pockets of the
chicken. He found all the pieces of lamb too! He still doesn't like
chicken. So after 1.5 weeks of suffering through the chicken meals
I tried other meats. He loved beef, rabbit, lamb. He sort of likes
turkey and pork.

I've been there with that refusal-to-eat-thing, and it is a difficult
place to be. Let's see what the experienced moderators say, but
couldn't a person start with a different meat?

Cindi

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
Posted by: "Misty Sargent" jrtlover27@yahoo.com jrtlover27
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

I know many of you will not agree with me on this, but I think forcing the dog to eat the chicken is a terrible idea. I wholeheartedly agree with sticking to your guns as far as raw in concerned, but too many people do not LISTEN to their dogs. Dogs can not speak to us verbally so they speak to us through their behavior. Your dog may be trying to tell you that the chicken does not "agree" with her. Just as many people, myself included, are lactose intolerant, our dogs can and do have dietary intolerances. All of my dogs are raw fed, but one of my five dogs has a severe allergy to beef. He has been allergy tested and tested postive for beef allergies. I discovered this after many sleepless night of him getting up 4-5 times with very mucosy, bloody diarrhea. He tested negative for parasites, had no abnormalities on his ultrasound, urinalysis, or blooodwork, so we allergy tested him. That being said, your dog might be trying to tell you that the chicken does not agree
with her, whether it be due to an allergy or simple gastrointestinal tolerance. Our dogs know their bodies much better than we do, and they are much more intellligent than we give them credit for. If after a few days of her refusing chicken, I would try giving her a different type of protein.....maybe lamb, beef, rabbit, etc. Just my honest opinion....

Misty

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1g. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:01 am ((PDT))

"morkydzgrl" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:
>> I've been there with that refusal-to-eat-thing, and it is a
difficult
> place to be. Let's see what the experienced moderators say, but
> couldn't a person start with a different meat?
*****
Yes one certainly can. There is no magic to chicken. Chicken is
flawed in many respects but it is generally cheap, easy to find and
easy to digest. If it doesn't work for a dog (and I mean DOESN'T WORK)
there are other meats. Any critter than can be fed can be used as an
intro food.

I tend to ignore longing looks and upturned noses if the dog is healthy
but for wee bairns and the old or infirm, I generally cut the dog an
amount of slack that's directly related to the seriousness of its
predicment. I will try different foods with healthy opinionated punks
but not in the same meal. Sometimes not in the same day.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1h. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
Posted by: "qsgirl916" qsgirl916@yahoo.com qsgirl916
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:18 am ((PDT))

Thanks again for more great suggestions.

As to those that suggested other meats - I've been giving a breakfast
of ground beef. Day 1, Fern loved it. After I gave her chicken for
dinner, not only did she snub the chicken, she snubbed the beef at
breakfast every day since.

As for not putting the chicken in a bowl, I bought a huge container of
chickens and had to chop them up just for the practicality of storage.
When I was done I put the cutting board down, another exciting event in
the days of kibble, and she wanted no part of it.

And begging for food? She begs when I eat - she gets nothing. She is
excited when I'm preparing the dog's meals, but as soon as, I put it
down she walks away uninterested.

Anybody go through a case like this one? I hate seeing her not eating
especially when the other dog is pigging out.

Sarah

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, keep holding out. For the next feeding you can try searing both

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: 2yr old dog new to raw, sick
Posted by: "morkydzgrl" ShankMa4@aol.com morkydzgrl
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kay" <k12lytle@...> wrote:
>
> If she eats her food too fast could it cause this? By this afternoon
> she was ready to eat & had a tin of sardines & a big chunk of veal
> w/bone. Yesterday she had buffalo ribs. Before that it was always
> either chicken backs or turkey necks.
>

Hi Kay,

First let me state I am not a moderator here but a fellow beginner as
yourself and I want to share my experience.

When I started back two months ago, I was focused on the bone. As I
read more posts and emails, I started to realize that the
proportions "over time" call for 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ. I
wasn't doing that because I was focusing on bone -- raw meaty bone,
etc. I was giving only chicken for 10 days. My dog stopped eating. He
refused the chicken. When I brought in beef and lamb, he perked up and
really loved the meals. He still won't eat chicken. I don't know, he
just really didn't like it.

When I read the meals offered to your dog, they are not meaty enough
according to the 80 - 10 - 10 guideline.

Just wanted to point that out as a fellow beginner!

Let's see what the others say.

Good luck Kay.

Cindi

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Raw with Puppy.
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

>
> I'm new here, I'll be getting a puppy and need some help!
>
> Your suppost to be 2-3% of there body weight, well how do you do that
> with a growing puppy?
>
> Do they need different things from adult dogs? Protien, carbs, ect?
>
> Can they eat the same bones, ect with puppy teeth?
>
> Also, those of you who who have had puppies and fed raw from the
> beginning, could you tell me what all you fed and when(almost
> something like a menu?)
>

My pups are weaned straight to raw at 4-6 weeks of age.
They get:
green tripe
beef - in all forms
chicken - in all forms
goat - in all forms
ostrich when I can get it
pork chunks
eggs
all kinds of organ meats and organ muscle meats
fish - whole and all kinds
scraps
leftovers
occasional hare and rabbit
they might also get whatever comes our way be it venison, emu or ???

I feed twice a day to start with but you can choose to feed how many times a day you feel
the pups needs it. Some pups need more frequent feedings due to hypoclycemia issues.

I don't like to feed more than twice a day maining because it can lead to picky eating.
Know your puppy and it's breed to determine the amount of feedings per day.

I do grind for the pups for the first few weeks and then it's on to whatever the adults are
eating. You'll know when they can tackle whole foods rather than ground food. Those
teeth can do a fair bit of damage to finger and clothes so whole chicken pieces are usually
good for young pups.

Most days my pups get some kind of meaty bone but some days are boneless. They grow
nice and slowly and without skeletal problems or rapid weight and height gain.

Relax and enjoy the ride. Raw fed pups don't smell like kibble fed pups and they don't
look like them either. They are lean, active, content and healthy.

Merril

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Seizures
Posted by: "jrtsnabc" jrtsnabc@yahoo.com jrtsnabc
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

Hi Brandi,

Raw will definitely help with the seizures! Removing as many impurities from the diet is very important.

You may also ask your friend when the last time her dog was vaccinated, especially for rabies. The rabies vaccine is a big cause for seizures in animals.

Finally, you may suggest she consider working with a Classical Homeopath in addition to the change in diet. A CH can help repair damage that may have been done by vaccines (or inherited vaccinosis) that could be the cause of the seizures. Have her check out the Classical Homeopathy for Pets Yahoo! group.

Seizures cause more seizures so they are likely to continue to increase in number (especially since this is juvenile-onset epilepsy) unless they are somehow brought under control and it doesn't sound like the phenobarbital is really working. Unfortunately, the medications available to "control" epilepsy in canines are, in my opinion, about as damaging as the seizures themselves.

If you want to ask more questions about feeding raw, vaccine damage and CH, you may want to move your inquiries to the RawChat group.

Good luck!

Katherine and the Raw Fed/Vax-free JRTs & BC
Windsor, CO

Subject: [rawfeeding] {Raw Feeding} Seizures

Ok, I got some more information from my friend that has the female

sheltie that's having seizures. She will be 2 in Jan., she started

having seizures in April - started out that wouldn't have the seizures

about every month and they started increasing. Now she's having them

every 2 weeks. She's on 32.16 mg of Phenabarbertor (sp) - half that

amount 16 something which she gives her pup twice a day. She's

interested in RAW if she thinks that it would help her with the

seizures.

____________________________________________________________________________________
Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more!
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/3658

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Confused about beef bones
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

If there is no meat on them, I'd lose all of them. I think the
knuckles discussed earlier had lots of meat and cartilage on them. The
bones themselves were picked up when the extras had been stripped off
by the dogs. Instead of feeding these wreck bones look for some large
bone in meals that the dogs can work on. Six way cut goat is great, or
you can give whole beef feet for chewing fun. These will clean the
teeth and keep the dog entertained without risking damage to the teeth.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cleone4100" <cleone4100@...>

> I get a bag from the grocery store that contains knuckles (knees &
> hocks?) and sawn portions of the leg bone. So if the knuckles are
> okay, it is the leg bone now that has me concerned. These are cut
> into slices about 1-3" thick, depending on the width of the
> bone,and have little on them other than the marrow.

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Confused about beef bones
Posted by: "Misty Sargent" jrtlover27@yahoo.com jrtlover27
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

I have given mine the leg bones with marrow in them before, but the legs have been about 3-4 inches thick and not easily broken by my 15 pound Jack Russells. I also monitor them and take them away if they start breaking the bone and ingesting any sharp or large looking pieces. Have you thought about digging the marrow out with a spoon, spreading it on the knuckle bone, and giving it to them that way? That might be better and then you won't have to worry. I'm assuming that the marrow is what they are really enjoying and not the leg bone itself. the beef knuckle with all the meat and tendons will do just as good a job at keeping their teeth clean if not a better job since the tendons serve as dental floss. They also have to work their front teeth on the knuckels when they normally only work their canines and back teeth on the legs.

Misty

cleone4100 <cleone4100@aol.com> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Misty Sargent <jrtlover27@...>
wrote:
>
> What part of the leg are you giving them?

I get a bag from the grocery store that contains knuckles (knees &
hocks?) and sawn portions of the leg bone. So if the knuckles are
okay, it is the leg bone now that has me concerned. These are cut
into slices about 1-3" thick, depending on the width of the bone,and
have little on them other than the marrow. My dogs enjoy them so
much, I was disappointed when I saw the concerns mentioned in the
emails. And it makes a big difference in their teeth.

So what do you think, leave the knuckles but lose the leg slices?

>
> Thanks, Carey, Biscuit & Gravy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s
user panel and lay it on us.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6.1. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "aliciamyan" <alicia_larson@> wrote:
> We usually butcher 2 to 4 steer at a
> > time and our customers almost never want the "extras", which means
> I'll
> > need another freezer!
> *****
> Oh, many freezers, for sure! One can never be too rich or too thin or
> have too many freezers. Merril I think has seven now. All that lovely
> trim...umm, umm good.
> Chris O
>

Yeah, but who's counting. :-)) I feel like Jeffry Dahmer.

If you come out to the races at the end of October, I'll bring you some cow. :-))

Merril

Messages in this topic (42)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: How do I start?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

Well, don't assume they won't like real food unless they show you
they don't like it. No meat grinder necessary, they have perfectly
good ones in their mouths. Eventually you want to feed a variety of
meats/organs from a variety of animals, but right now it would be
easiest to start with chicken.

Get a couple of chickens and cut them into quarters or slightly
smaller. The idea is to give them something they cannot physically
swallow whole (like chicken wing attached to the breast, not by
itself). Leave the chicken out long enough to get to room
temperature and start feeding time. It's easiest to teach them to
eat on an old towel or vinyl tablecloth if they don't have their own
crates.

Be excited when giving them their food, put it down and walk away.
Stay within view of all of them but don't hover. Let them
investigate and try it out. If they start eating, great, if they
don't, give them time. After 20 minutes pick up the food if they
haven't started eating and put it away. Serve same food for next
meal and repeat the whole song and dance.

Don't assume any of them won't eat, and don't let any of the healty
ones dictate what they eat. The oldies get more leway, but you can
cross that bridge *if* you come to it. For now, think positive.
Once they are eating, let them eat about 1/4lb of food before picking
it back up.

Give it a try and let us know how it goes.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "luvmy4shihtzus"
<luvmy4shihtzus@...> wrote:
>
> I have VERY picky small dogs. How do I get started with raw feeding?
> What do I feed them that will address all of their issues? Do I
> need a meat grinder so they don't choke?

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Feeding rats? and fish types
Posted by: "brake4breyers832" pebbles_diehl@hotmail.com brake4breyers832
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:08 am ((PDT))

I feed frozen rats and mice to my snakes and was thinking I saw
somewhere that I could thaw two and toss them to my chihuahua's. What
does everyone think? The dogs have been mainly on chicken (only been
doing the raw thing for about 5-6 wks) and I have seriously reduced
their meal size after having on-going issues with loose stool (I
finally figured out that it wasn't too much variety or anything else,
just too much!).
Would doing this satisfy the need for organs if I haven't gotten tripe
yet? I have fed teeny portions of chicken liver added to a couple
meals so far, but wanted to know what everyone thought.
ALso, is there a concern with feeding a fish like bream I catch in the
local lakes? Other than freezing solid for a week to clear out
parasites, of course.
Thanks in advance for any help!
Susan D., Chloe and Pip

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Feeding rats? and fish types
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

I offer my cats defrosted rats and mice regularly which they
sometimes eat and most times not (I guess they prefer to catch their
own and leave the remnants on my porch). When they snub the food I
end up giving it to my dogs. Tycho eats everything and enjoys
tossing the whole prey around before eating it. Geiger, on the other
hand, is seriously offended that I would give him something with fur
on it. Try it with your pups and see what they think. Feeder
mice/rats are a great source of whole prey for small animals.

> Would doing this satisfy the need for organs if I haven't gotten
> tripe yet?

The great thing about whole prey is that it is perfectly balanced.
If you are feeding other foods you'll still need to add in some
organs though. And about tripe, I don't consider it an organ as much
as a meat. Liver, kidney, spleen, brain, lungs, etc are more organy.

> ALso, is there a concern with feeding a fish like bream I catch in
> the local lakes? Other than freezing solid for a week to clear out
> parasites, of course.

If your lakes aren't polluted and you would eat fish from the lake,
then it should be ok.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Feeding rats? and fish types
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:39 am ((PDT))

"brake4breyers832" <pebbles_diehl@...> wrote:
>
> I feed frozen rats and mice to my snakes and was thinking I saw
> somewhere that I could thaw two and toss them to my chihuahua's.
What
> does everyone think?
*****
Great idea. Potentially excellent if you raise them on their own
species appropriate diets. Each species has one, you know. Your
snakes would almost certainly benefit from your mice and rats'
healthy diet as well.

> Would doing this satisfy the need for organs if I haven't gotten
tripe
> yet?
*****
Tripe by itself satisfies no organ requirement. It is tissue (of a
muscle) stuck onto with bits of undigested browse.

Absolutely positively whole rats and mice will satisfy the organ
requirement. The best you can feed your dog is whole prey. For
small dogs, small whole prey is just dandy. With whole prey--as the
Ragu commercial used to say (as if Ragu had a clue)--"it's in there."

fed teeny portions of chicken liver added to a couple
> meals so far, but wanted to know what everyone thought.
*****
This is still good when you're not feeding whole prey. Whole prey is
better because the relationship between meat, bones and organs is
built in. You might consider raising quail too!

> ALso, is there a concern with feeding a fish like bream I catch in
the
> local lakes? Other than freezing solid for a week to clear out
> parasites, of course.
*****
With fresh water fish, I am more concerned about toxic accumulations
from industrial and agricultural runoff. Unless your particular lake
gets a clean bill of health from the local Fish and Game dudes (as
in, safe for human consumption), I'd pasadena. You can kill
parasites. You can't kill toxins.

Conceptually though, whole wild caught fish is a terrific idea.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:09 am ((PDT))

Giselle -
She did suggest a grain free kibble or to reduce total calories. I can't see myself switching over from raw so will feed less.
She did say that a couple of dogs in the other litter being evaluated were slight because they were not processing their food properly. That litter is ki**le fed.
Thanks so much for your insightful response. I must remind myself I went for a structure evaluation not a nutritional evaluation but somehow, I know the two are inseparable.
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Caren!
Poppycock! So you should feed, uh, what? Doom Nuggets?
IMO, this is just another example of so-called 'experts' (not in
nutrition, surely) that will say ANYTHING to back up their biased
opinions.

This is just a variation of; "You shouldn't never feed xxx brand of
kibble, its bad for your pups, I ALWAYS feed yyy brand of kibble, and
MY pups are always winners!"

I do wish you would've gotten her eval BEFORE you told her what you feed.

A topic you should read;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/142520

You know what to feed, 80% meatymeat - 10% edible bone - 10% organs,
5% of which should be liver. Just because a wolf can't obtain optimum
food for it's pups in today's restricted wilds of the world, doesn't
mean you should have to feed cr*p-in-a-bag to your pups. Really.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello group -
> I had my litter of Cavalier pups evaluated today by a well-known AKC
> judge who routinely evaluates litters for breeders. She told me that
> by feeding raw I'm giving my puppies too many calories from protein
> and their front legs are starting to "bow out" because of the improper
> nutrition. She said a puppy in the wild would never be given the
> quality and quantity of protein I'm feeding.
> May I have some feedback from others who have had success in weaning
> pups onto raw. I'm sold on raw just a little rattled by the comments.
> Your thoughts and comments in this regard, please.
> Thanks so much.
> Caren O'Connor
> Nansemond Cavaliers
>

---------------------------------
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:10 am ((PDT))

I took my 4 1/2 month old Mastiff to a respected Breeder and show queen
last week end for an eval.

She was impressed overall with my girl.

Thought she had great potential, and brought out one of her champions,
an older dog whom, she told me looked a lot like "Baby" at Baby's age.

Later in the day we started talking about food, as the deer started
heading in towards the house. I told her I feed "Baby" raw, she smiled
and called for her son.

He offered me the frozen deer legs they had and I respectfully
refused. They do not feed raw, but they were going to observe Baby's
development very closely.

They also decided to work with me on her showings.

KB
guardiansbythesea.com

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: demodex
Posted by: "Jocelyn Groner" jocelyn7777@hotmail.com croint7777
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:44 am ((PDT))

Okay....

As for the demodex issue... I started rawfeeding after fostering a 4 month old puppy with demodex. I didn't want to do all the medical and chemical treatments, since I had read it has more to do with a weakened immune system. I figured that giving tons of medicine/chemicals wouldn't solve the real problem. So, I researched and researched, and wasted time. I gave tons of supplements while feeding a "premium" kibble and pre-made raw patties (super expensive). I was spending over $375 a month to feed my 3 dogs. So, I finally made the leap and started to feed raw on my own. I found this list, and asked questions... My dogs had some of the occassional problems (loose stool, bile and bone vomit, bile vomit- after boneless meals when they needed a snack, etc.)... Well, after about 3-4 weeks on the raw prey model diet, and my foster (now a year old- told you I wasted time and money)...She grew all her hair back in all the spots. Her ear was no longer inflamed and itchy along the edges. While my girl never scratched her spots, all the vets told me it was demodex (and they did scrapings).

So needless to say, I spent 8 months being stubborn and stupid. I could have fixed my dog in a month, but no...

So, quit giving all that junk (poison) the vet is giving you to "kill" the mites. Make the poor dog's immune system strong enough to fight it off. Don't give any vaccinations or spay/neuter while the dog is recovering or just afterwards (since these stress the immune system).

Your dog will love you forever for switching, and the health will improve greatly.

Good luck.
Jocelyn

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. New member - probably silly question
Posted by: "petpalikali" petpalikali@yahoo.com petpalikali
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:45 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!

I've been moving my dog toward an all raw diet for about 3 months
now. When I give her a whole chicken drumstick bone, she chomps it
all up at once - swallowing the whole thing. I haven't noticed a
problem with it, but was concerned that it wasn't chewed up enough for
her to digest. Is this ok, or should I chop the bone into smaller
pieces. She's a big girl, about 65 pounds of love.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: New member - probably silly question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:17 am ((PDT))

"petpalikali" <petpalikali@...> wrote:
> I've been moving my dog toward an all raw diet for about 3 months
> now.
*****
You have taken about three months too long! What is the hold up?

When I give her a whole chicken drumstick bone, she chomps it
> all up at once - swallowing the whole thing.
*****
That's what dogs do. That's especially what dogs do when they're given
small food. For a 65lb dog, a chicken leg is piffle. AND it's just
the right shape (as well as size) for prompt swallowing.

This is how people set themselves up for scares and failure. As long
as you are dabbling about, you will continue to offer your sweet girl
food that is not optimal for her needs. These choices, instead of
relieving your anxieties, will only increase them.

was concerned that it wasn't chewed up enough for
> her to digest.
*****
Even with the leg in its unbroken state, she will have less trouble
digesting it than her kibble. What may compromise her digestion is not
the chicken leg itself but rather the chicken leg fed with kibble.

No, you should not chop the leg into smaller pieces. That sets your
dog up for even more precipitious eating. Again, messing about with an
improperly fed raw diet is how unpleasant things can happen. Whether
one feeds a small dog or a big dog, the goal is to feed BIG food that
is complicated and time consuming.

Why are you prolonging this transition? How can we help your girl out
here?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. Beef feet
Posted by: "carolejc2007" mooska2me@sbcglobal.net carolejc2007
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:45 am ((PDT))

The local hispanic market has beef feet advertised for .69 lb. I am
still new to raw feeding so what I am wondering is if beef feet would
make a meal or if they are more suitable for something like snacks or
chews. Thanks!

Carole (Mom of 2 Greyhounds & 2 Italian Greys)

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Feeding Frozen RAW
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:18 am ((PDT))

> Can I feed frozen?
YES. My dog prefers frozen. I feed everything frozen, maybe not rock
hard, but frozen. I think they have to slow down and chew more. The
organs aren't slimey and I like that.
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------