[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12080

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
From: Yasuko herron
1b. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
From: Giselle
1c. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
From: Giselle

2a. Re: New to the group/questions
From: ncrnrgrl
2b. Re: New to the group/questions
From: T Smith
2c. Re: New to the group/questions
From: costrowski75
2d. Re: New to the group/questions
From: Loraine Jesse
2e. Re: New to the group/questions
From: sunjataiw

3a. Re: new to RAW, but my English Mastiff is loving it
From: Kevin Brown

4a. Re: 4 dogs starting
From: delcaste

5a. Fish and fur and other friends?
From: rawnewfie
5b. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
From: Giselle

6a. Re: Pancreatitis
From: vickies_28

7.1. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: vickies_28
7.2. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: T Smith

8.1. Re: New to Raw
From: costrowski75
8.2. Re: New to Raw
From: Paul Hoebing

9a. Dog with Eating Disorder
From: annemariekruit
9b. Re: Dog with Eating Disorder
From: Giselle
9c. Re: Dog with Eating Disorder
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
9d. Re: Dog with Eating Disorder
From: Laurie Swanson

10a. Re: Supplement Question...again
From: Giselle
10b. Re: Supplement Question...again
From: Giselle

11a. Re: puking pets
From: Giselle

12. Re: Link between high protein diets and ;hyper behavior?
From: lauraanimal1

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:36 pm ((PDT))

>- encouraged these owners- who are all feeding kibble- to switch to some other food with a >lower percentage of protein.

Hi.I think Kibble is high carb,low protin with added additives,preservative etc etc. And carb is the one to make dog hyper.

I don't feed rice or some sort(carb carb),but my dog gets carb in rawmeat such as liver (1oz of liver has1g of carb) but quite low in carb like 1% per week roughly.My dog is somewhat I feel more satisfied and calm.

Of course, she play hard when we play and bark with anticipation but,other time,she relax on bed laying down resting quietly and sometimes taking nap.

I feel like at least my dog on raw hyper level is like black and white.When switched on,she be on,when switched off,she be quiet.

My thinking is high protin=calm.

But it is possible that some srrounding made such dogs go barking non stop.Or those dog felt needs to bark for some reason.

yassy

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:59 am ((PDT))

Hi, Mary!
Not true. A whole prey model diet isn't all protein. There's
fat 'n skin 'n fur 'n bone 'n water 'n connective tissues - besides
the meatymeat that contains protein.

This link can help you see what each type of meat has which nutrients,
including protein - unfortunately, being a human site, it doesn't
include bones (sometimes includes what percentage of 'refuse' is
bone), or some of what people would consider offal;
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

For example, a WHOLE chicken,
Chicken, broilers or fryers, meat and skin and giblets and neck, raw

Refuse: 31% (Bone)
Nutrient Units 1.00 X 1 chicken
-------

Proximates
Water
1046 grams

Protein
9320 g

Total lipid (fat)
191.73 g

Ash
155.12 g

Carbohydrate, by difference
8.37 g

Fiber, total dietary
1.36 g
I didn't include the entire list of other nutrients.
This also doesn't include the innards or head or feathers of the
chicken, which would be removed for human consumption.

And, I'm not convinced that its high protein that causes, or may seem
to cause, hyperactivity. Not until they do a study that includes whole
prey model raw as *one* of the diets tested, and eliminate the many
variables (such as additives & supplements) in the kibble & 'other' diets.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
> The instructor- who I feel handles all these dogs very well and teaches
> with a clicker and only positive strategies- encouraged these owners-
> who are all feeding kibble- to switch to some other food with a lower
> percentage of protein. She knows that I feed my guy raw and as she was
> making this suggestion to these other owners, looked at me and my guy,
> who was calmly lying on the floor in the midst of all this chaos, and
> was very perplexed because he ONLY gets protein.
>
> Can anyone comment on this idea that high protein diets may make some
> dogs "hyper"?
>
> Thanks! Mary

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:39 am ((PDT))

Um, if you don't 'do' grams, like I don't - this link will do the
conversions for you;
http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/gram_calc.htm

G

<snip>
> This link can help you see what each type of meat has which nutrients,
> including protein - unfortunately, being a human site, it doesn't
<snip>
> For example, a WHOLE chicken,
> Chicken, broilers or fryers, meat and skin and giblets and neck, raw
>
> Refuse: 31% (Bone)
> Nutrient Units 1.00 X 1 chicken
> -------
>
> Proximates
> Water
> 1046 grams
>
>
> Protein
> 9320 g
>
>
> Total lipid (fat)
> 191.73 g
>
>
> Ash
> 155.12 g
>
>
> Carbohydrate, by difference
> 8.37 g
>
>
> Fiber, total dietary
> 1.36 g
><snip>

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "ncrnrgrl" jcraver1@nc.rr.com ncrnrgrl
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:36 pm ((PDT))

Thanks everyone for your help and support.
I appreciate your patience while I work through this, I am sure my
questions are ones you commonly see - and are probably tired of so I
especially appreciate that you took the time to respond.
thank you again.

jenny
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> I am still freaking out & confused but don't know why I am :-)
> Trina
>
> On 9/26/07, ncrnrgrl <jcraver1@...> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Is everyone always a wreck when they get started?!
> >
> > Jenny
> > _
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi Catherine,
I understand your recomendation of searching the archives, but sometimes
things change AND this is a VERY active list so archive searching can be way
overwhelming.
I won't ask as much questions anymore, sorry. It's just easier to ask &
hope for the direct answer to the exact question rather than a long search &
weeding through alot of material.
Trina

<<snip>>
>
>
>
> the best thing for folks new to the list to do is read all the welcome
> emails, and search the archives. ALL of your questions have been asked and
> answered
> before..
>
> Catherine R.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:52 pm ((PDT))

Morledzep@... wrote:
>> Yep.. we were all wrecks when we started. i cringed for the first
two days
> listening to the dogs crunch on bones..
*****
I would just like to state for the record that I was not a wreck and I
thought the sound of crunching bones was utterly amazing.

I don't believe everyone is a wreck when they first feed raw. I think
people can talk themselves into wreckness and out of it. I recommend
talking oneself out of wreckness.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:44 pm ((PDT))

This group has been a real learning experience for me. Thank-you.
Question: Can I please get some detailed information on how most of you wean your puppies and exactly how and with what food and when? What kind of feeding instructions do you give your puppy people?
For those of you who have been feeding strictly prey raw feeding for many years now..............have you had any puppies/dogs that choked from the whole raw food or, surgery from bowel impacts, etc?
Did you have any problems with the pups growing confirmation wise (too fast, too slow, low pasterns, splayed feet) And finally what were your average results with OFA?
Loraine Jesse
rothburg@xplornet.comwww.rothburgrottweilers.com

_________________________________________________________________
Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy!
http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "sunjataiw" sunjataiw@yahoo.com sunjataiw
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:46 pm ((PDT))

> I would just like to state for the record that I was not a wreck and
I
> thought the sound of crunching bones was utterly amazing.
>
> I don't believe everyone is a wreck when they first feed raw. I
think
> people can talk themselves into wreckness and out of it. I recommend
> talking oneself out of wreckness.
> Chris O

Precisely my sentiments . . . it was initially, and remains, music to
my ears! Jeff W.

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: new to RAW, but my English Mastiff is loving it
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:36 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> dry food? You are feeding kibble with raw?
> I'm confused.
> Trina
>
> On 9/26/07, jerseykev@... <jerseykev@...> wrote:
> >

This was during her transistion from Royal Canine to raw. I did it
slowly over a period of a month. I didn't want to dramatically change
her life.

So far I am very pleased with the outcome.

KB

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:38 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> I'm having the same problems but i never free fed the dogs i have now!
> Unfortunately, they are dragging the chicken around & I have a 2 year
old
> son. I can't mop every single day my whole house...... I need to be
> realistic here.
> Trina

Can you train them to eat on a little rug or bathmat or towel? They
learn right away. Everytime they drag the meat off their mat, place it
right back on. Someone , I believe Giselle?, had a great idea to use a
cardboad box, as a frame around their towel, until they get the idea of
not moving from their "space." Then after a while, begin removing first
one side, then another side, until all four sides have been removed. By
then they should be staying on their towel.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Fish and fur and other friends?
Posted by: "rawnewfie" rawnewfie@yahoo.com rawnewfie
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:38 pm ((PDT))

Most of my fears of starting a raw diet, are made easier by the prospect of feeding fish to my
retriever and Newfoundland puppy that will be joining us in a couple weeks. I know the Newf
was fed a diet based on fish and some kind of grain meal on the working boats of old.
I also know my old retriever will be a hard case for fish, I am thinking of mashing up some
fish along with some beef or pork? Also I was thinking of trying some whole rabbits and
game birds as I find them. My sweet old retriever? I just don't see her grubbing a rabbit, She
is more likely to mourn for it. Should I um, well... "open" it first or something?
What about prey drive? My dogs have always lived amongst my garden laying hens and
tortoise?
plotting on the neighbors pet guinea pig:) just kidding!
Todd, Tika, Biscuit, and ? what do you think we should the Newfie girl pup?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:12 am ((PDT))

Hi, Todd!
I'm all for starting plain and simple and unadorned.

Then adjust and regroup if you hit a roadblock.

Start with something bland, cheap and easy to feed - good ole grocery
store bought chicken.

Branch out with a new protein every other week or so.

As with every other aspect of raw feeding, see what the dogs tell you
along the way, and adjust 'n tweak as needed.

Don't complicate it, its 'just' feeding your dogs. ^_^
Enjoy the process.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

p.s. Didn't the breeder register her? Or, is she leaving it up to you?
A lot of peeps give a 'themed' registered name to go with the kennel
name, and pull the call name from that.

> Most of my fears of starting a raw diet, are made easier by the
prospect of feeding fish to my
> retriever and Newfoundland puppy that will be joining us in a couple
weeks. I know the Newf
> was fed a diet based on fish and some kind of grain meal on the
working boats of old.
> I also know my old retriever will be a hard case for fish, I am
thinking of mashing up some
> fish along with some beef or pork? Also I was thinking of trying
some whole rabbits and
> game birds as I find them. My sweet old retriever? I just don't see
her grubbing a rabbit, She
> is more likely to mourn for it. Should I um, well... "open" it
first or something?
> What about prey drive? My dogs have always lived amongst my garden
laying hens and
> tortoise?
> plotting on the neighbors pet guinea pig:) just kidding!
> Todd, Tika, Biscuit, and ? what do you think we should the Newfie
girl pup?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Pancreatitis
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:40 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hello
I shared my story about being forced to quit raw just the other day
and got some really good advice for the folks on this list. So now
about pancreatitis.
My vet said that my dog possibly has pancreatitis based on the blood
work results. He said that the pancreatic enzymes are very high. And
of course he blamed it on raw diet. the issue we saw the vet for was
sneezing and not feelign well - he also said it was upper respiratory
infection and fever. And then did the test and said also pancreatitis.
So my question is, what are the symptoms of pancreatitis and if it
can be asymptomatic or just go unnoticed.
I always thought that this condition has vomiting, diarea. loss of
appetite, et. etc. How can I tell that the dog has a tummy ache?

Still fighting with my hubby about raw. He threw away all the food I
had bought. Nice chiken and other stuff. All gone/ And he bought some
canned dog food.

Vickie

Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7.1. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:41 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Thanks, Shannon
I understand all that and probably should have lied to my vet as
well, but who knew??
About pancreatitis. The vet said the dog probably has it, but he only
made this conclusion based on the blood work results, elevated
pancreatic enzymes. NOTHING ELSE. We did not see the vet for any
gastric upset, etc. Why did he bring this up??
What are the symptoms of pancreatitis and how would I suspect my dog
has it? Until we saw that crazy vet I didn't even think he had a
digestive problem.,and don't think he does now.
We saw the vet for the sneezing and fever and not feeling well. But
after we got the antibiotics for upper respiratory infection the dog
seems better.
It's only my hubby is a problem now. I already shared with the folks
here - he threw away all my raw food. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So please share what the symptoms are of this pancreatitis, and if I
should worry about the blood work.
I heard that dogs who are fed raw have a different blood work results
as compared to dogs fed dry food.

Thanks again
Vickie

Messages in this topic (44)
________________________________________________________________________

7.2. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:44 pm ((PDT))

Typical symptoms include vomiting, loss of appetite, and abdominal pain, but
sometimes signs can be more mild or vague. The severity of the disease and
response to treatment will vary from case to case. Animals with severe
disease may die either from complications or lack of response to treatment.

Diagnosis and treatment are aimed at identifying and eliminating any
underlying causes of pancreatitis. The disease is best prevented by
correcting obesity, ensuring that the animal does not eat high-fat foods,
and preventing other conditions associated with pancreatitis.

*Clinical Signs:*
The clinical signs of pancreatitis in dogs vary, but include vomiting,
anorexia, depression, upper abdominal pain, diarrhea, severe weakness or
collapse, dehydration, shock, and fever. Dogs may exhibit signs of abdominal
pain by acting restless, panting, crying or wincing when picked up, shaking,
standing with an arched back, or lying with the front end down and the rear
end elevated.

Now, unless you are feeding a HIGH fat content RAW diet??? Even at that,
you can lower the RAW fat content!

Your husband threw it away? Well, I wouldn't tollerate that because i would
want what is best for my pets.

here's a complete link for you.

http://www.vetcentric.com/reference/encycEntry.cfm?ENTRY=23&COLLECTION=EncycIllness&MODE=full

Trina

On 9/26/07, vickies_28 <vickies_28@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> It's only my hubby is a problem now. I already shared with the folks
> here - he threw away all my raw food. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> So please share what the symptoms are of this pancreatitis, and if I
> should worry about the blood work.
> I heard that dogs who are fed raw have a different blood work results
> as compared to dogs fed dry food.
>
> Thanks again
> Vickie
> __
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (44)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8.1. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:31 pm ((PDT))

"aliciamyan" <alicia_larson@...> wrote:
I now feel prepared (sorta) to start feeding them a raw
> diet.
*****
Heck yes.

I'm heading out tomorrow to hit as many grocery stores as I
> can in search of chicken. I plan on spending the first few months
> feeding chicken so the GSD adapts thoroughly before trying
something
> new.
*****
I recommend a. you not buy tons of anything right now and b. you
don't set long term goals right now. You have no way of knowing
what's going to work for the dog; don't presume to have figured out
all the details. You may WANT to have all your ducks in a row, I
understand that urge. But really--let it go. Buy some unenhanced
chickens, try them, buy more or buy something else. You can always
find chicken somewhere. Several months of chicken may be required
but I kind of doubt it.

>Since our GSD has
> already proven to be sensitive, does anyone have additional advice
> for his transition?
*****
It is entirely possible that his sensitive tummy is fully related to
commercial dog food. Ditch the kibble, start him on chicken. I
think prolonging his exposure to processed dogfood is
counterproductive.

Do not rush into variety; dream if you want of freezers full of
different meats but feed just one for now. And don't get overly
enthusiastic about amount. Too much food is the primary cause of
loose stools. You may also want to rely on chicken backs or other
bony parts if you are worried about loose stools. Your GSD needs
lots of meat but to start with you may have to feed more bone than is
generally recommended.

> What about eggs? We raise our own free-range laying hens and eggs
> are plentiful.
*****
Eggselent food but not right now if you are trying to avoid loose
stools. After you have all made a success of the transition, you can
try eggs. I suggest you simply table this particular concern for
later.

My other question is – where's the beef?
*****
Sitting unpurchased in the meat cases because it's so darned
expensive is where!

Your dogs need red meat in their diet and beef is clearly the obvious
red meat, but pork is also red meat and it's a lot cheaper. Other
lovely red meats are lamb and goat. Whatever beef you can direct to
your dogs is good food! Given my druthers, I'd be perfectly happy
feeding beef, lamb and goat...with little or no chicken.

Probably the biggest issue with beef is the basic inedibility of its
bones. Pork, lamb and goat have much more approachable bones, as
does chicken of course. So yes, if you can use beef as the staple,
go for it...but don't forget to feed edible bone as well.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (30)
________________________________________________________________________

8.2. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Paul Hoebing" pjhoebing@yahoo.com pjhoebing
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:32 am ((PDT))

Hi Alicia,

Now I'm a bit confused. Are beef bones bad for their teeth? I thought beef bones were ok and even beneficial for cleaning because they are so hard?

Thanks for any advice I'm still new to this,

Paul

HI Alicia,

I don't have time right now to respond to everything in your post, but
just wanted to mention that we don't talk about beef an awful lot
because most of the bones are inedible (tooth wreckers--too
dense/hard). So there's just not a lot to talk about.

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (30)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Dog with Eating Disorder
Posted by: "annemariekruit" annemariekruit@yahoo.ca annemariekruit
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:40 pm ((PDT))

My old girl, 13.5-year-old shep/lab X Shadow gets so excited when I
feed her a chunk of meat that she'll swallow the whole piece almost
whole, like a snake. She has been eating raw for just over a year
now and has done very, very well on a variety of meat sources
including chicken, turkey, beef and different sorts of fish. A while
ago I was offered a young cow that had to be put down. Two vets
declared her unsafe for the human food chain, but both said that she
was safe as dog food.

If I leave the pieces too large, Shadow will swallow them whole-
unless they're attached to bone. Twice she has choked off her oxygen
and has full-blown seizures that lasted about 1 minute each. These
seizures are very similar to epileptic seizures. (I wasn't exactly
sure what happened the first time - confirmed my suspicions when it
happened the second time. Won't happen again.) Now I slice the meat
into strips before I give them to her.

Poor Shadow - no control when it comes to food.
A.M. Kruit

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Dog with Eating Disorder
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:16 am ((PDT))

Hi, A.M.!
What about feeding whole turkeys or fresh pork hams that are
bigger than her head and complicated to figure out how to eat?

I bet if she got enough BIG FOOD, she'd realize that she wouldn't have
to gobble it all up at once.

Hovering, and trying to help them eat by holding the food or hand
feeding can make a gobbler or gulper worse, IMO.

Being able to eat their fill on a regular basis can help with this
type of feeding anxiety, ime.

Have you ever seen a wolf pack eat? They snarf and gnaw and tear
chunks and swallow them and generally act like they have NO manners,
trying to get on the outside of as much food as possible, as fast as
possible. ^_^

The differences between wolves eating vs dogs eating - they've
experience eating raw food since being weaned by their mother - they
eat from whole prey - they have no human restrictions on the way they
must eat, or how much, or when.

Idiopathic seizures could, I suppose, be brought on by anxiety about
eating, or by temporary partial or total suffocation caused by food
blocking the airway.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> My old girl, 13.5-year-old Shep/Lab X Shadow gets so excited when I
> feed her a chunk of meat that she'll swallow the whole piece almost
> whole, like a snake. She has been eating raw for just over a year
> now and has done very, very well on a variety of meat sources
> including chicken, turkey, beef and different sorts of fish. A while
> ago I was offered a young cow that had to be put down. Two vets
> declared her unsafe for the human food chain, but both said that she
> was safe as dog food.
>
> If I leave the pieces too large, Shadow will swallow them whole-
> unless they're attached to bone. Twice she has choked off her oxygen
> and has full-blown seizures that lasted about 1 minute each. These
> seizures are very similar to epileptic seizures. (I wasn't exactly
> sure what happened the first time - confirmed my suspicions when it
> happened the second time. Won't happen again.) Now I slice the meat
> into strips before I give them to her.
>
> Poor Shadow - no control when it comes to food.
> A.M. Kruit
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: Dog with Eating Disorder
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:32 am ((PDT))

Anne Marie,
Maybe you aren't thinking big enough, make the pieces bigger, so there is no way for choking, she will have to chew the food, and get to the bone. I realize some pieces will have to be cut up smaller because they can't be big, but for those that can go big, go big, like the cow:)
Just a thought.
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

9d. Re: Dog with Eating Disorder
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:32 am ((PDT))

Cute post--it sounded like part sarcasm, but it also sounded like you
might not know that that is normal dog eating. :-) I think your
idea of too large isn't large enough. They are designed to eat
really large things attached to skin and bone (wolves kill elk and
feed off the carcass!) and to have to work to get at the meat and
dismantle things. When we give them things which can fit/almost fit
down their throats, sometimes they will just swallow/try to swallow
them. Some dogs are more enthusiastic (or stupid) about their food.
But it's really our fault if we feed them too small. Granted, most
of our dogs are smaller than wolves, but I think you'll be amazed if
you try something relatively big or complicated, like a whole
chicken, or a quarter of a turkey, or a goat leg. Search the
archives for "gulping" and "feeding big" or "big food."

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "annemariekruit"
<annemariekruit@...> wrote:
>
> If I leave the pieces too large, Shadow will swallow them whole-
> unless they're attached to bone.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Supplement Question...again
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:33 am ((PDT))

Hi, Peter!
Comparing human nutritional needs to canine nutritional
needs is like comparing apples to oranges. Humans are omnivores,
canines are carnivores.

There are groups dedicated to recreating, and following, the
paleolithic diet for themselves and their families. They think, in
part, that humans haven't evolved far enough from their paleolithic
forebears to be able to process and obtain optimal nourishment from
refined (or modern) grains, hybrid fruits 'n veggies, and Mickey Dee's;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet
http://www.paleodiet.com/
http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html
Most of it is extrapolated, I think, from the findings of
archaeologists and nutritional anthropologists.
Humans evolved to be they way we are, to eat what nourishes us, over
millennia. We are omnivores because being able to eat a wide variety
of plant and animal life allowed us to survive and thrive and spread
all over the world as a species. Those that couldn't or didn't eat
enough of what helped them to be healthy, live, hunt and reproduce
simply didn't survive long enough to do so. Unlike today, in this
country, where there is abundance, so people can eat cr*p and modern
medicine will attempt to keep them alive at all costs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biocultural_anthropology

Whereas, we can look at modern day wolves, and see what our dogs would
eat if out in the wild, and given optimum conditions to hunt.
Wolves survive today, in part, because they can scavenge, and survive
on some plant material that isn't optimum nutrition for them, due to
the encroachment of man into the wild places of the world. I suspect
that this was the way they evolved and became a successful species,
too. Dogs survive in our homes, kennels, BYB and puppy mills, because
of the same biological survival mechanisms that their wild cousins
have. NOT because cr*p-in-a-bag is good for them.
Why would I want to feed my dogs a diet that wasn't optimal, wasn't
the best I could afford and source?

Dogs are wolves, plain and simple.
wiki says, in part;

~~ DOG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog

Conservation status
Domesticated
Scientific classification
Domain: Eukaryota
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Canidae
Genus: Canis
Species: C. lupus
Subspecies: C. l. familiaris **
Trinomial name
Canis lupus familiaris

Wolf ancestors

Although all wolves belong to the species Canis lupus, there are (or
were) many subspecies that had developed a distinctive appearance,
social structure, and other traits. For example, the Japanese Wolf and
the Eastern Timber Wolf possess different distinctive coloration,
hunting and social structures. The origin of the dog is so ancient and
so worldwide that many varieties of wolf played a part in it. It is
wrong to say that dogs descended from modern wolves. They descended
from ancestral wolves, and this difference must always be kept in
mind. Ancestral wolves of many varieties existed all over the world.

The Indian Wolf is thought to have contributed to the development of
more breeds of dogs than other subspecies. Many of today's wild dogs,
such as the dingo and the pariah dogs, are descended from this wolf.
The Indian Wolf is also thought to have bred with descendants of the
European wolf to create the Mastiffs and eventually leading to the
development of such diverse breeds as the Pug, the Saint Bernard, and
the Bloodhound. The Tibetan Mastiff is an example of an ancient breed.

The European wolf, in turn, may have contributed many of its
attributes to the Spitz dog types, most terriers, and many of today's
sheepdogs. The Chinese wolf is probably ancestor to the Pekingese and
toy spaniels, although it is also probable that descendants of the
Chinese and European wolves encountered each other over the millennia,
contributing to many of the oriental toy breeds.

The Eastern Timber Wolf is a direct ancestor to most, if not all, of
the North American northern sled dog types. This interbreeding still
occurs with dogs living in the Arctic region, where the attributes of
the wolf that enable survival in a hostile environment are valued by
humans. Additionally, unintentional crossbreeding occurs simply
because dogs and wolves live in the same environment. The general
reproductive isolation which is required to define dogs and wolves as
separate species is purely a result of lack of opportunity, stemming
from a general mutual unfamiliarity, suspicion, mistrust, and fear.

The phenotypic characteristics that distinguish a wolf from a dog are
tenuous. Wolves typically have a "brush tail" and erect ears. While
some dog breeds possess one of these characteristics, they rarely
possess both.

~~ WOLF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf
Conservation status

Least Concern [1]
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Canidae
Genus: Canis
Species: C. lupus **
Binomial name
Canis lupus

The Gray Wolf (Canis lupus), also known as the Timber Wolf or, simply,
Wolf, is a mammal of the order Carnivora. The Gray Wolf is the largest
member of the genus Canis. Its shoulder height ranges from 0.6 to 0.9
meters (26â€"36 inches) and its weight typically varies between 32 and
62 kilograms (70â€"135 pounds). As evidenced by DNA sequencing and
genetic drift studies, the gray wolf shares a common ancestry with the
domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris). [2]

Relation to the dog

Much debate has centered on the relationship between the wolf and the
domestic dog, though most authorities see the wolf as the dog's direct
ancestor. Others postulate that dogs descend from the Golden Jackal.
Because the canids have evolved recently and different canids
interbreed readily, untangling the true relationships has been difficult.

**** But molecular systematics now indicate very strongly that
domestic dogs and wolves are more closely related than either is to
any other canid, and the domestic dog is now normally classified as a
subspecies of the wolf: Canis lupus familiaris. ****

The main differences between wolves and domestic dogs are that wolves
have, on average, 20% larger brains, better immune systems, a better
sense of smell, and are generally much larger than domestic dogs.[4

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I have a few questions about the what would the wolf eat argument.
> Lets take human nutrition for example. Lets look at humans a few
> thousand years ago when we were living in tents and caves. Was our
> diet ideal? I don't think so. We had no insight at all when it came to
> a healthy diet. We ate what we had to survive. I am not saying we eat
> healthier now but we have the knowledge to eat healthier. I would
> assume wolves eat about like our ancestors in regards to eating what
> you can to survive.
>

> peter

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Supplement Question...again
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:56 am ((PDT))

Hi, Trina!
You'll have 'em all raw fed in no time! ^_^

Kibble was developed in the early part of the last century, in part,
to be a substitute for real meat, when large breeder kennels started
shipping dogs in quantity to dog shows all over the country by rail.
Some enterprising grain merchants figured out how to make hard baked
biscuits from human grain leavings - thus making money for themselves
and allowing the breeder kennels to save money by not buying meat, nor
having to ship and refrigerate large quantities of meat.

The pet food industry was born, and they have been justifying feeding
processed, substandard, cooked plant matter to dogs ever since.
Pretty much all the nutritional 'studies' done have been to prove that
dogs can survive on kibble, and have become more and more skewed as
time goes on.

Since virtually all the dogs used to establish 'baseline' values for
blood work, nutritional minimums for nutrients and such, have been fed
kibble, there really aren't any representations that represent dogs
that are fed real, species appropriate food. The so-called specialists
use the pet food corps 'established' nutritional guidelines - vets,
even 'specialists' receive virtually no nutritional education, and
none that isn't taught by people employed by the pet food corps or
heavily influenced by them.

'Swhy so many vets are so anti-raw - they have been propagandized and
subsidized since their early days in school by the pet food corps.
They continue to receive 'education' from the pet food corps reps and
so are invested in making money by selling cr*p-in-a-bag.

So, supplementing raw fed dogs to pet foods corps feeding 'guidelines'
makes no sense.
Better to let Mom nature do what she does best.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Why do people have to supplement when feeding k****le? Obviously
k****le
> lacks in many departments.....
> I mean how are we assured that feeding this cr*p is really giving them
> nutrition when they are recalling it all...
<snip>
> Trina
> --
> Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
> Casper (deaf Great Dane)
> Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
> Louie (hearing Great Dane)
> Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
> Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
> Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: puking pets
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:19 am ((PDT))

Hi, Todd!
Yes, dogs don't see vomit as the worrisome, upsetting
biological embarrassment that we humans do.

They're not uptight about poops or pee, either. ; )

I have never known, first person, of anyone's dog having a medical
emergency due to bone shards in the digestive system. Occasionally, I
have read about someone on the list who has swept out or pushed down a
hasty, too big mouthful. Once or twice I have read of someone having
to remove a wedged piece of bone from a dog's mouth.

But, thats why we recommend supervised meals and feeding portions
bigger than the dog's head. : )

I have never had any of these problems with any of my own dogs. Just
lucky, I guess.

What kind of vomiting is your dog doing?
When does she vomit?
What does it look like?
What exactly had she eaten when she horked?
Inquiring minds want to know. ; )

There's a big difference between regurgitation, bile vomit (BV), bone
bile vomit (BBV) and vomit from an illness or digestive problem.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Maybe some of the longer term members will know. Has any one ever
posted some serious
> disaster as a result of raw feeding on this group? Any dogs choked
to death or been
> eviscerated by shards of bone. I have been feeding raw for about a
week. It is total trial and
> error, she won't eat chicken, is tentative about turkey necks, loves
beef and pork. My old
> retriever is starting to throw up, but poops have been firm. This is
really hardest on her
> worried parents I think.
> Thanks,
> Todd
>

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. Re: Link between high protein diets and ;hyper behavior?
Posted by: "lauraanimal1" lauraanimal1@yahoo.com lauraanimal1
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:33 am ((PDT))

I have a Rottie that I just switched back to RAW about 1 1/2 weeks
ago, since then she has been bounding with all kinds of energy. She
constantly wants to play and be just an all around goof, she isnt
minding as good as she used to and has suddenly started
having "selective" hearing issues as well. to which I am getting
more and more frustrated with her for, the selective hearing that
is, as well as some of this sudden boundless energy she has. I do
blame this reaction on the raw diet, it didnt start until after i
started her back on it and has only intensified. Although I look at
it in this way... just like anyone who has been taking in all kinds
of toxins and poisons into there system, once it stops and they
begin feeding there poisoned body with healthy good things, they
feel much better, they want to get out and spread there wings and
just enjoy feeling good. Its hard to listen to someone thats
telling you "NO" stop, dot do this or that, when you feel just so
darn good and feel like you have a new lease on life.

As for the hypernes of these k****e fed dogs, i am sure some of it
is also related to the fact that there training class may be the
only time they get any mental stimulation or one on one attention
other then being kept at home board. add that to the carbs and such,
no wonder there hyper.

As for my girl, once she gets used to feeling good and reagusted to
the healthy diet, she will settle back down to her normal self (I
hope)

Laura & Ishta

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------