[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12072

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Feeding Heads
From: M Williams
1.2. Re: Feeding Heads
From: costrowski75
1.3. Re: Feeding Heads
From: costrowski75
1.4. Re: Feeding Heads
From: Scott Baker
1.5. Re: Feeding Heads
From: Tina Berry
1.6. Re: Feeding Heads
From: brutus_buckley

2a. vet said not to feed raw liver
From: paulhrussell
2b. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: costrowski75
2c. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: carolejc2007
2d. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: Tina Berry
2e. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: Cathy Crosby
2f. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: costrowski75

3.1. Re: new/protein sources/fat content (was Feeding Heads)
From: Laurie Swanson

4a. Re: Raw & Stools (poop)
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Raw & Stools (poop)
From: cleone4100@aol.com

5a. Re: Aust. shep. new in nashville
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: Mona

7a. Re: Feeding once a day
From: saucy_senorita2003
7b. Re: Feeding once a day
From: Felicia Kost

8a. what to feed a scared rescue?
From: Dawn Ruhl

9a. Re: Help - Ready to quit
From: eyed_blue

10a. Re: Deer legs ok?
From: Tina Berry

11. Newbie Intro-Ellizabeth
From: Dawn Ruhl

12. Won't eat chicken
From: melabelle227

13a. Re: Hello-I'm New Intro
From: girlndocs

Messages
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1.1. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "M Williams" twilli55@tampabay.rr.com mtm1will
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:25 am ((PDT))

Can you just feed like ground meat or does it have to be the whole "chicken leg" per say? I have no place to feed anything like that so it would have to be able to be cut up or ground and put in their bowls.

Marci

You do NOT have to feed anything you are not comfortable with!!! I wouldn't
feed a cow's or deer head, either! And we've been rawfeeding for nearly 3
years!! I get the majority of my dogs' food from the grocery store -
chicken, pork, beef, goat, rabbit, sardines, mackerel, tilapia - all from
the regular grocery.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (30)
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1.2. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:47 am ((PDT))

>
> Heh Heh
> Chris can hardly get us to take our OT stuff to raw chat
now,
> she'll be trying to figure out how to send 'death rays' thru'
> cyberspace if there were an 'oldie' raw feeding list and a 'newbie'
> raw feeding list to mod.
******
Ah, I'd have to become sterner and grimmer. I think Rawchat might
do nicely as a, um, launching pad for the less certain. Not that it
necessarily focuses on beginning issues though: it's just so much
smaller and the message volume is lighter.

A BeginnerRaw list that only offered beginner advice from beginners
to beginners might offer a pretty narrow range of experience. What--
you finally get yourself sorted out and then you have to leave?
It's like being twenty on Sugar Mountain.

Experience is paramount in the raw feeding adventure. That and the
list archives.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (30)
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1.3. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:33 am ((PDT))

"Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>I was just joking about the
> beginners/advanced lists, but I just meant that if we had that, we
> wouldn't scare newbies away talking about feeding heads! :-)
*****
But you know what would, don't you--loose stools.

Heck, a good raw diet has something scary for everyone!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (30)
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1.4. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:51 am ((PDT))

Do you have a floor? If so, you have a place. take a towel and toss it on
the floor, then get them to eat on the towel. Simple enough.

On 9/25/07, M Williams <twilli55@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Can you just feed like ground meat or does it have to be the whole
> "chicken leg" per say? I have no place to feed anything like that so it
> would have to be able to be cut up or ground and put in their bowls.
>
> Marci
>
>
> .
>
>
>

--
Scott

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Messages in this topic (30)
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1.5. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

"I cannot feed heads like this. It's just NOT something I can do. Maybe
k*** is best for our dogs. I can feed chicken & meats & even fish but not
this other stuff like heads... "

You don't have to feed heads; I feed whatever meat I can get - chicken on
sale during the summer unless my 3 freezers are full from hunting season; so
now we are on to venison, elk, antelope, I posted a sign at my work about
taking game meat from last year since hunting season just opened, and two
people took me up on it - so I'll have two freezers of 1 yr old wild game
for my 4 gsds here in a week or so YIPPEEEEE. But wild turkey, any wild
game, whatever you can get - friends/family that hunt - otherwise it's
whatever is on sale at the grocery store/costco - shop around. Butchers
too.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (30)
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1.6. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

Feeding heads are also great for freaking husbands out!!!
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (30)
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2a. vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "paulhrussell" paulhrussell@yahoo.com paulhrussell
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:25 am ((PDT))

Wondering if there's anything to her saying liver is the organ which
deals with all of the unhealthy things and sickness an animal has been
subjected to?

She said don't feed liver, other raw organ meats are a safer bet if
doing a raw diet.

I give mine lots of frozen beef liver mixed with various beef and
chicken from Whole Foods.

Thanks,

Paul

Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:49 am ((PDT))

"paulhrussell" <paulhrussell@...> wrote:
>
> Wondering if there's anything to her saying liver is the organ
which
> deals with all of the unhealthy things and sickness an animal has
been
> subjected to?
*****
Nothing replaces liver. Even if you bail out and use cod liver oil
(not recommended!) you have to feed liver something.

If you want to minimize the specter of sickness and unhealthy
organs, buy freerange organic liver. OTOH, it might just be enough
to know that a. liver is not a repository but rather a filter. (If
liver just accumulated, ain't none of us would be alive today.), and
b. storebought liver is healthy enough for human consumption and
that should work for dogs. Remember, cooking may kill parasites but
it doesn't do squat to toxins.

Also consider that only 3%-5% of the diet should be liver. For a
dog that eats a pound a day, that's less than one once a day.

> I give mine lots of frozen beef liver mixed with various beef and
> chicken from Whole Foods.
*****
You don't need to feed "lots" but you have enough wiggle room to
feed it generously without being excessive. When you say "mixed",
does that mean you are feeding prefab ground blends?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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2c. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "carolejc2007" mooska2me@sbcglobal.net carolejc2007
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:54 am ((PDT))

Paul ~

I have heard the same thing but it was in regards to human consumption
not animal. All I know is that I don't eat liver for that very reason
but; should I also restrict my dogs? I just don't know. Can anyone
with more knowledge chime in here?

Carole

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "paulhrussell" <paulhrussell@...>
wrote:
>
> Wondering if there's anything to her saying liver is the organ which
> deals with all of the unhealthy things and sickness an animal has
been
> subjected to?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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2d. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

Ditto what Chris said. Mine get liver daily with their chicken, or once a
week when I'm feeding vension or beef.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (6)
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2e. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "Cathy Crosby" biblecat@sbcglobal.net waycoolcavies
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

>>If you want to minimize the specter of sickness and unhealthy
organs, buy freerange organic liver<<

Sorry....am I the only one who thought this was funny? I can just
picture these little livers out in the field, grazing and frolicking in
their freedom!
Cat

Messages in this topic (6)
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2f. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:57 am ((PDT))

Cathy Crosby <biblecat@...> wrote:
> Sorry....am I the only one who thought this was funny? I can just
> picture these little livers out in the field, grazing and frolicking
in
> their freedom!
*****
But yes! You should watch sometimes. There is capricious behavior
although sometimes you may see a bit of sheepishness. And of course
some livers are positively cowed by the larger ones: they're quite
chicken actually and quail at the thought of going up against those
that make pigs of themselves.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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3.1. Re: new/protein sources/fat content (was Feeding Heads)
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:26 am ((PDT))

Trina,

Breathe...

Ok, now, look at the sales flyers and find some unenhanced whole
chickens on sale. Send your husband or go to the store and get
them. Cut them up into quarters, remove the skin (since you are so
worried about loose poops), and hand to your dogs. Continue like
this as you see how things go and keep looking for cheaper/better
sources.

You could add in some of your boneless breasts if you want, but yes,
you need to feed some bone.

Some fat is necessary and some people feed a lot more than I do. I
trim it off it's a thick layer because it gives my dog runny poops
and it makes sense to me. Most of the meats that are available in
the grocery store are much fattier than any wild prey would be. Just
my opinion. Some dogs can tolerate more fat, though. I don't know
the specific fat contents of each meat, but I think chicken, turkey,
venison, goat, emu, and rabbit are on the leaner side. Beef, pork,
duck, and lamb are fattier. My dog can eat all of those meats fine
(well, we've never tried duck or emu), but like I said, I do trim
thick layers of fat off if they have it. You'll have to make up your
own mind about that issue.

Costco would be fine if they have what you want for a good price!

Laurie

Messages in this topic (30)
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4a. Re: Raw & Stools (poop)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:09 am ((PDT))

"Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
> When what is really happening, is that the raw is so nutrient dense
> and bioavailable, and the dog's system is so deprived of optimal
> nutrition, that the dog's body is USING most of everything that is
> being fed him. What comes out, after a few days, is very small,
> compared to kibble poops. And, the dog's elimination habits are
> changed forever - he poops less frequently, and when he does, the
> poops are tiny.
*****
Wellll, what ALSO happens is the human has been deprived of the
visual benefit of "stool regulators" that all commercial dog food
includes as an essential ingredient.

Whether Ol Roy or the number one recommendation from WDJ, stool
firmer-uppers are what keep those kibble stools looking healthy (the
connection between firm stools and good health is a nice
fabrication). You can be uptown and use dried sweet potato or
potato fiber; or you can be down and dirty with "beet pulp (sugar
removed)". And then there's oatmeal and bran and gamut
of "holistic" whole grain offerings.

You ditch the artifice, you lose the artificial result. Hmm, not so
bad, I don't think.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: Raw & Stools (poop)
Posted by: "cleone4100@aol.com" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:29 am ((PDT))

Just want to say that after a week on raw, and tweaking per all your advice,
my male Bloodhound is now having perfect stools. Female is still a little
loose, but much better. And also, her energy level has increased! She was
becoming somewhat sedate at the ripe old age of 6 (!!!) and it was beginning to
concern me. Part of the reason I switched to raw was her energy level, or lack
of, the appearance of gray on her muzzle, as well as tartar and bad breath.
Both dogs breath are much improved, and while their teeth were not in bad
shape, they are already whiter and brighter.

I just want to thank everyone for their advice and dedication to educating
people about raw feeding. Well done!

Carey, Biscuit and Gravy

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: Aust. shep. new in nashville
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:30 am ((PDT))

"sthumming" <humming@...> wrote:
This chicken back: I cut the hen up myself so it had plenty of meat
on it. I am not sure if
> it's okay to give her back the same dirty dragged-through-the-
grass thing; I kept it in the
> fridge but???? I think of my former elkhound, whose squirrel
carcasses could sit in the
> backyard many days. So it must be okay, right?
*****
Chicken backs will never be the meaty wonders people want them to
be. I have cut up not only store bought whole birds but also whole
feathered, nothing-removed-but-life birds and backs are not where
the birds carry their flesh. So you'll be feeding lots of bone when
you feed chicken backs...

...which isn't dreadful over the long haul, since over the long haul
you will be feeding lots and lots of luscious meat. Some people
recommend relying initially on bony body parts in order to avoid the
distress of loose stools. Again, bony body parts will be--in the
big picture--mediated by a more appropriate level of meatymeat in
the diet.

I recommend you pay heed to Auntie Giselle and consider meatier
meals. If you are feeding twice a day, you can feed the back as one
meal and meatymeat as the other; or you can feed a back plus added
meat each meal. There are several ways you can get more yummy meat
into Maddy without getting lost in the Land Of Loose Stools.

Dragging it through the grass is fine, but if she's flat-out not
eating, you should collect her uneaten meal and re-serve it next
feeding time (or feed something else if you want). Food can often
be a Fun Toy for dogs but first they need to realize it's food.

The first Australian Shepherd I knew personally--the dog that hooked
me on herding breeds--was a lovely blue merle by name of Maddy.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "Mona" mona@ptd.net deliriousmom
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:56 am ((PDT))

. If
he was smart enough to make these kinds of decisions, he would be
taking care of you instead of the other way around. Denise

Now that's funny!!! And Oh So True!

Mona

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7a. Re: Feeding once a day
Posted by: "saucy_senorita2003" saucy_senorita2003@yahoo.com saucy_senorita2003
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:57 am ((PDT))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:>
I do not know about other people but with Danes we feed at least twice
a day to avoid bloat. Any other Dane people feed raw here?
> Trina
Hi Trina,
I have two 12 month old danes that I feed raw to 3 times a day. They
get a large meal morning and evening and a smaller meal in the middle
of the day. My danes are very well exercised and the 3 meals per day
work for them, else they walk around and act like they've never eaten
anything their entire life, lol!
Lynda

Messages in this topic (10)
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7b. Re: Feeding once a day
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:00 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hello, I have danes and know several other people with danes that rawfeed. We all feed twice daily to help prevent bloat/torsion. Although; with raw it is much less of a concern vs. kibble fed danes. I personally fell the causes of bloat are complex and may not been entirely nutrional related however I still try to prevent it. I don't see any harm done feeding twice daily vs. once daily other that convience. Do what works for you and your dogs. Just my opinion. Felicia

T Smith <coldbeach@gmail.com> wrote: I do not know about other people but with Danes we feed at least twice a day
to avoid bloat. Also torsion with large meals & exercise before or after
feeding. Smaller meals are always much better for the dog.
Now, as far as raw goes, maybe that's different? Any other Dane people feed
raw here?
Trina

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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Messages in this topic (10)
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8a. what to feed a scared rescue?
Posted by: "Dawn Ruhl" Dawnofthedanes@mac.com dawnofthedanes
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:57 am ((PDT))

Normally, with rescues that aren't emaciated... I don't feed them
right away.
Just like with boarding dogs... the first night they get fresh water
and not much else.
Due to the trauma, even with dogs that have been here before... they
know their
family left them, they love coming here, but I know it is traumatic
the first day...
so, I basically fast them. They get a lot of love and attention, and
by the AM they
are ready to chow down. Now, if you are switching a rescue or a dog
from a shelter
to raw... they have most likely been fed a really cheap food that
smells a heck of a lot
better than it is for them.... so,
I mix some Parmesan cheese into the food with a light dusting on
top and have only
had one NOT eat it. He was a Pyr who was an OTI (owner turn in) who
was missing
his family SO much he wouldn't eat, wouldn't come out of the crate
and didn't even
want to go outside. I gave him the homeopathic remedy IGNATIA 30C and
the next
morning he was wagging his tail, eating and playing. So, it wasn't
the food, it was the
grieving that caused him not to eat.
Hope this helps.

~;*;~ Dawn ~;*;~
http://dawnofthedanes.com

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9a. Re: Help - Ready to quit
Posted by: "eyed_blue" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:00 am ((PDT))

Hi, it could just be that maybe one dog has an intolerance, one cant
eat as much fat, other one cant change proteins that fast....

Try them with another source, one thats a bit easier to digest then
you can try giving small amounts of pork later. Turkey, lamb and
green tripe are good ones to try and Flank mutton seems good.

I would stick with one of these for about 3-7 days and see how they
go, you can take it from there.

Hope this is of some help,

Natalie

Messages in this topic (15)
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10a. Re: Deer legs ok?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:01 am ((PDT))

"My boys treated the leg bones of the deer a bit like beef ribs - strip 'em,
gnaw on the ends while, then go slump over after working hard for a meal!"

That sounds find to me... I was referring to them trying to devour the leg
bones after the meat is gone which is what my gsds do.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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11. Newbie Intro-Ellizabeth
Posted by: "Dawn Ruhl" Dawnofthedanes@mac.com dawnofthedanes
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:01 am ((PDT))

Welcome Elizabeth,
I used to be a Vet Tech... many moons ago. <G>
There is a lot to glean from this list. Your pets will
thank you when you make the switch! If you haven't
already.
I have been feeding raw for 14 years. I have 6 cats,
7 Danes,2 senior GSDs, 1 Flatcoat Ret and a Booger
dog all eating raw.
(Booger is a doxie/pit mix who will literally PEE on
a bowl of dog food now)

In 14 years I have only had to have 2 dogs get dentals.
That includes personal dogs AND rescues. To date I have personally
rescued over 150 dogs since moving to TN in '98. Most of them Great
Danes. Even rescued some toy dogs too.
The 2 are my GSD permanent fosters. Their teeth were sludge black
and each had to have some teeth removed from years of kibble eating.
That was 6 years ago and their teeth look as good as they did after the
dental 6 years ago!

I would like to welcome all the newbies here. I don't post often, mostly
in spurts. <G.

~;*;~ Dawn ~;*;~
I prefer to live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there
isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there
is.
http://www.dawnofthedanes.com

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12. Won't eat chicken
Posted by: "melabelle227" carmelai@gmail.com melabelle227
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:50 am ((PDT))

Hi, I've been feeding my 56lb Plott a frozen raw diet for about a
month and have just made the switch to "do-it-myself" raw last week
(hurrah!). So far so good... I started with goat chunks with bone
(because I got some at a great price) and he LOVED it. The goat ran
out, and I had chicken quarters next. Now this dog is not a picky
eater, but he won't eat the chicken (though he had no problem eating
the frozen ground raw chicken). He licks it, nibbles it a tiny bit,
and then leaves it. I'm fine with not feeding him anything else til
he eats the chicken- I know I need to stick it out and eventually
he'll eat- but I have some questions: (1) how long should I leave the
chicken out for him to eat, before I put it away if he doesn't eat it?
(2) if this goes on for a few days, is it ok to keep putting out the
same chicken day after day? (3) is it ok for my dog to get his usual
amount of exercise (which is a 4 or 5 mile run daily) if he isn't eating?
Thanks everyone. I've learned a lot from the group!
Carmela
and Milo the Plott

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13a. Re: Hello-I'm New Intro
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:50 am ((PDT))

> The meat that I give them now (the small bit) I buy organic.

OK, but what composes the main part of their diet? Some kind of
commercial pet food, right? Well, that's *not* organic. So, you're
already feeding them (food containing) meat that contains antibiotics
and hormones. Meat from the grocery store contains antibiotics and
hormones too, but it's higher quality.

Your question about bacteria on a dog's mouth is the same kind of
idea. If commercial pet food were reliably free of bacteria like
salmonella, then maybe bacteria from feeding raw would be a concern.
But there *have* been recalls of kibble for salmonella, and as someone
pointed out, in a kibble-fed dog those bacteria get a better chance to
grow in that mouth because it's full of carbohydrates.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (5)
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All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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