[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12069

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy
From: Loraine Jesse
1b. Re: Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy
From: Elizabeth
1c. Re: Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: Help - Ready to quit
From: Laurie Swanson

3a. Re: Feeding Heads
From: Laurie Swanson
3b. Re: Feeding Heads
From: T Smith

4a. Aust. shep. new in nashville
From: sthumming
4b. Re: Aust. shep. new in nashville
From: Giselle

5a. Re: Cat with sensitive stomach
From: Shannon Parker

6.1. Re: new member
From: Denise Strother

7a. Re: Feeding once a day
From: Denise Strother
7b. Re: Feeding once a day
From: T Smith

8a. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Kevin Brown
8b. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: T Smith
8c. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: rochellemontage
8d. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: rochellemontage
8e. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: tottime47
8f. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: marblekallie
8g. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: costrowski75

9. Re: quitting raw
From: Michael Moore

10a. Re: Hello-I'm New Intro
From: girlndocs

11a. Re: raw feeding my Papillion
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Urinary Tract Infections
From: costrowski75

13a. Re: Allergy question
From: costrowski75

14. Raw & Stools (poop)
From: T Smith

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:33 pm ((PDT))

I am a bit lost here.
To my understanding puppies need the extra calcuim from the bones for growth, that is why they are supposed to have at least 65 % raw meaty bones. I thought I was pushing it by using chicken legs and more meaty pieces which would be about 50 % meat and about 50% bone. Also when I feed beef or, heart on its own I have given them 1 tsp of egg shell powder too, because beef is low on calcuim. My biggest worry with a large breed, besides growth development would be the pasterns and feet. So I am having a hard time understanding what has changed with the percentages. I do understand that too much calcuim can be detramental to a large breed, but so could too little. Could you give me an example of 2 to 3 meals that you would feed a large puppy that would be say from 5 wks to 20 wks.
Please note I am very open to new information, growing and learning.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: rlee@plix.comDate: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:38:30 -0700Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy

Absolutely!Sandee & the Dane GangFrom: "Loraine Jesse" <rothburg@hotmail.com>> Sandy,> With feeding 80% meat and only 10 % bone on a large breed, will there beenough natural calcuim?

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Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy
Posted by: "Elizabeth" rainsou1@yahoo.com rainsou1
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:45 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Loraine Jesse <rothburg@...> wrote:
>
> So I am having a hard time understanding what has changed with the
percentages.

Think of a wolf... Big "dog," right? They eat the same whole-prey diet
from weening to death. They have healthy bones, and grow at an
appropriate rate. A prey animal is comprised of roughly 80% flesh,
hide, skin, fur, and 10-15% bone, and 5-10% organs. I am under the
guise that you are thinking about the BARF diet which suggests too
much bone. That is way too much bone, and it's based off the
assumption that wild animals are half bone! If you told any biologist
that, they would look at you like you grew a second head! lol! Also,
Billinghurst seems to think dogs are omnivores, which is not true.

-Liz

Messages in this topic (7)
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1c. Re: Feeding a large breed ( Saint ) puppy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:32 pm ((PDT))

Nothing has changed. The normal prey animal of a carnivore is only around
13% total bone and not all of that is consumable. The majority of their
prey is meat. Feed lots of meat, a little bone and organs.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Loraine Jesse" <rothburg@hotmail.com>
> I am a bit lost here.
> To my understanding puppies need the extra calcuim from the bones for
growth, that is why they are supposed to have at least 65 % raw meaty bones.
I thought I was pushing it by using chicken legs and more meaty pieces which
would be about 50 % meat and about 50% bone. Also when I feed beef or, heart
on its own I have given them 1 tsp of egg shell powder too, because beef is
low on calcuim. My biggest worry with a large breed, besides growth
development would be the pasterns and feet. So I am having a hard time
understanding what has changed with the percentages.

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Help - Ready to quit
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:33 pm ((PDT))

Hi Dolores,

Just to clarify-by "enhanced," I don't mean obviously seasoned. It
can be injected w/broth or other solutions and you can't tell except
it should be listed in tiny print on the label. This can cause loose
poops in some dogs. But, as someone else said, pork is a lot fattier
than chicken, so that could be it, too. I don't like my dog to have
chronic loose stool, either, but I don't really know that it makes
him too uncomfortable. It doesn't always accompany an ill feeling in
us people. And the dogs often don't act under the weather just
because they have some loose stool. But, I agree in trying to
minimize it.

Good luck,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, havanese1@... wrote:

> The pork was not enhanced just plain old country style ribs.

> Cleaning poop is not an issue, the issue is that I don't want my
dogs to be sick or uncomfortable. No one likes to have liquid poops,
not even dogs.

Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:33 pm ((PDT))

Not sure how big a head you're talking about or if this is practical,
but can you put it back in the frig or freezer til the next day/feeding?

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Baker" <scottsbaker@...>
wrote:
>
> To those that feed whole heads, what do you do with the heads between
> feedings? do you just leave them in the yard?
>

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:22 pm ((PDT))

I am beginning to think raw might not be for me.
I cannot feed heads like this. It's just NOT something I can do.
Maybe k*** is best for our dogs. I can feed chicken & meats & even fish
but not this other stuff like heads... Seeing my dog chomping down on a
cow's head ..... I can't do that. Feeding my dog a wild squirrel that runs
along my fence chattering away.... no, that's definitely out of the picture.

Maybe I was thinking of a different kind of raw food. Where do the dogs get
their vitamins from, is there supplementing, too?
I'm just confused now, totally and utterly confused on how this is supposed
to work. I thought it was:
80% meat, 10% bone & 10% organs & chicken was ok. pork ribs are ok & fish
Then, I could give treats for training (like the rollover meat natural stuff
i cut into small tid bit treats).
My family was even willing to try this out as soon as we figured out where
to feed them this type of meal.
But now, after reading what is being fed, it might not be for us.
Trina
(really befuzzled)

On 9/24/07, Laurie Swanson <laurie@mckinneyphoto.com> wrote:
>
> Not sure how big a head you're talking about or if this is practical,
> but can you put it back in the frig or freezer til the next day/feeding?
>
> Laurie
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>, "Scott
> Baker" <scottsbaker@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > To those that feed whole heads, what do you do with the heads between
> > feedings? do you just leave them in the yard?
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
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4a. Aust. shep. new in nashville
Posted by: "sthumming" humming@comcast.net sthumming
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:08 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
Just to introduce myself. We have a 6-week-old Australian shepherd girl, and we've always
fed our previous dogs kibble, but I'm trying to get the hang of raw feeding. Lack of freezer
space is a major obstacle; I've got a tiny deepfreeze.

Tonight was the first meal we've fed her just meat. I gave her a chicken back and watched her
learn how to eat -- we both had a good time. She only finished probably 20% of it. Do I rinse
it off and save it for tomorrow?

Thanks,
Stephanie in Nashville Tennessee

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Aust. shep. new in nashville
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Stephanie!
Welcome to the raw side!

Chicken backs by themselves are really too bony with not enough meat
on them. I'd ditch it, and get something meatier.

For a baby pup, and she's pretty young yet to be already gone from her
family group, you want to be sure that her diet has plenty of meat,
and just a little easily edible bone. Why not get a few Game Hens, and
cut them into quarters? These are chickens, slaughtered at a younger
age than 'regular' chickens, so they are smaller with bones that are
softer. She probably will do well with a quarter at each of three
meals a day at first.

As she grows, and develops her jaw and body strength, you can give
larger parts and more difficult bones.

For a pup under 4 mo, you might want to offer about 10% of her
ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT body weight. After 4 mo, you'll probably want to
use the approximately 2-3% EIABW estimate. And three meals a day are
good for pups until about 6 mo, then you can switch to 2 meals a day.

You might want to read this archived post with my recommendations for
starting to feed raw. And maybe print it out and highlight the
relevant points;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374
The Lis List, which is in this post also, tells of creative ways to
source cheap or free proteins and even freezers! ^_^
TC and let us know how you and pup progress!
TC
Giselle with Bea in New Jersey

> Just to introduce myself. We have a 6-week-old Australian Shepherd
girl, and we've always
> fed our previous dogs kibble, but I'm trying to get the hang of raw
feeding. Lack of freezer
> space is a major obstacle; I've got a tiny deep freeze.
>
> Tonight was the first meal we've fed her just meat. I gave her a
chicken back and watched her
> learn how to eat -- we both had a good time. She only finished
probably 20% of it. Do I rinse
> it off and save it for tomorrow?
>
> Thanks,
> Stephanie in Nashville Tennessee

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Cat with sensitive stomach
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:08 pm ((PDT))

Hi Liz,

It sounds like you are describing my cat to a "T". My cat is 13 years old and pre-raw, vomited ALL the time. I had to keep switching her from one hypoallergenic diet to another, as she would develop sensitivities to each one. She NEVER had a solid poop, and she just didn't look great. So 2 things happened. 1. I tested her for hyperthyroidism...POSITIVE! 2. Switched her to raw. She's been on raw for 1 year and is doing fantastic. Still vomits the odd time, but it's usually just a hairball. She refuses to eat off the bone so I grind up her food (usually chicken or turkey), add some organ meat which she loves and supplement with herring fish oil for the omega 3 fatty acids. I also give her sardines or mackerel once a week which she goes crazy for. Definitely have your friend get her thyroid checked, and switched to raw.

All the best,

Shannon

Elizabeth <rainsou1@yahoo.com> wrote:
My roommate would like to put her cat on raw, but the cat has a few
issues my friend is concerned would not go over well with raw. I am
posting on her behalf because she does not belong to the group or have
a Yahoo account. Anyways, the cat is 13 yrs old, and has a sensitive
stomach, and vomits nearly everyday for some reason or another.

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Messages in this topic (8)
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6.1. Re: new member
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:09 pm ((PDT))

There is one thing that can be a con - at least in instances of days
and days of rain - the tremendous amount of energy that a raw fed dog
has. When it rains here in Houston for days and days, Lavender paces
around the house til I give up and put on rain gear and take her out.
Denise

> The pros are feeding a dog the food he is designed to eat....so
better health, cleaner teeth, even more stable temperament.
The cons are.....ummm, I can't think of any! Other than becoming
obsessed with finding good deals and then not having enough freezer
space! :)
> Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (80)
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7a. Re: Feeding once a day
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:16 pm ((PDT))

Melissa,
Tell your Mom and Dad that there is no reason to feed a grown dog more
than once a day. Also you can feed bigger, more complicated meals by
feeding once, instead of splitting the days food into two meals. Denise

> I have been feeding my golden raw for about 3 months now and he is
doing great!I feed him once a day usually in the evening , which he
doesn't seem to have a problem with. I still live at home which makes
it hard for me to do things my parents my not agree with, they think i
should start feeding him twice a day. Which I don't believe there is a
good reason to. I would really like any opinions on this, It will
really help me out alot. I really enjoy reading what everyone has to
say about different post and try to improve on my knowledge on raw.
Thanks,
Melissa

Messages in this topic (8)
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7b. Re: Feeding once a day
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

I do not know about other people but with Danes we feed at least twice a day
to avoid bloat. Also torsion with large meals & exercise before or after
feeding. Smaller meals are always much better for the dog.
Now, as far as raw goes, maybe that's different? Any other Dane people feed
raw here?
Trina

On 9/24/07, Denise Strother <denisestrother@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Melissa,
> Tell your Mom and Dad that there is no reason to feed a grown dog more
> than once a day. Also you can feed bigger, more complicated meals by
> feeding once, instead of splitting the days food into two meals. Denise
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:17 pm ((PDT))

Are they micro chipped?

Kevin
guardiansbythesea.com

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Jen Dudley <jend404@...> wrote:
>
> Vicki,
>
> Do you have a positive diagnosis for cancer in the new
> puppy? I don't know much about dog metabolism and
> feeding - I am still learning, but I do know quite a
> bit about tracking disease vs. population density (in
> humans). I am assuming your dogs are unrelated?? Two
> young animals with cancer in the same household raises
> pathogen red flags all over the place. Perhaps those
> that know more about dogs will say I am over-reacting
> but I don't know.
>
> If you have had two unrelated puppies contract cancer
> so young and close together you MUST look in to your
> environment. Ask your neighbors if they have dogs with
> cancer. Find out how many, etc, etc. Your own health
> may depend on it. What kind of cancer? Is it the same
> as the first puppy. Look up what is known to cause
> that kind of cancer and it may give you a clue where
> to start looking. Is it possible they are chewing on
> something they shouldn't like paint cans?
>
> Start with home environment (chewables), water, soil,
> air pollutants, etc. If you truly suspect the food
> then I would look in to where you buy the meat for the
> dogs. Where do the feed animals come from? Where do
> they graze. Where is the packing and butchering done?
>
> that is what I would do.
> Jennifer Dudley
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
______________
> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?
fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>

Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
I am new to this list & not feeding raw * yet * but i want to comment on
your cancer dog.
I haven't heard yet if you have had an oncologist confirm the diagnosis.
I say this because I have been paying over $1,000.00 a month in medicines
for my "cancer" dog for over 2 years! A new vet took some x rays recently &
we cannot find this so-called cancer diagnosis.
Until you have a confirmed diagnosis, there's no way to know it is cancer.
I am sorry if this is off topic. I just don't want to see another person go
through a misdiagnosis; especially by a vet that either : wants extra money
or is against raw feeding.....I

Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (22)
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8c. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "rochellemontage" rochellemontage@yahoo.com rochellemontage
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

Hi again Vickie,

I've heard dogs and cats were getting cancer left and right with the
new product, swifter floor cleaners. It was on CNN several times,
and is on the web extensively.
Also, if you have carpeting, some can make animals very ill as well
as humans too.
One of the things I do is architectural products specifications and
many products are used in homes many years before problems are
considered a direct cause.
Look over your environment closely. As Jen stated, 2 dogs getting
cancer in the same home would point to something other than diet.
Hope all ends up well for your little one.
Sincerely,
Rochelle

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Jen
>
> The puppies are related but very distantly. I thougth the same
thing
> as you did about the house and stuff. Puppies just don't get it
that
> young and that violent and strange form. I have nothing in the
house
> that a puppy can chew on that is not safe, only dog toys, bones
and
> raw hide from the pet store. Dogs never run around unattended. So
all
> I can suspect is food and/or water or cheimicals I use to clean
the
> floor.
>
> About meat, where it comes from - no idea and never will be able
to
> find out. It's a big supermarket chain. I don''t eat it myself, I
buy
> my meat form an organic store, but cannot really afford to do it
for
> the dog, it's $7/lbs and up.
>
> Vickie
>
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Jen Dudley <jend404@> wrote:
> >
> > Vicki,
> >
> > Do you have a positive diagnosis for cancer in the new
> > puppy? I don't know much about dog metabolism and
> > feeding - I am still learning, but I do know quite a
> > bit about tracking disease vs. population density (in
> > humans). I am assuming your dogs are unrelated?? Two
> > young animals with cancer in the same household raises
> > pathogen red flags all over the place. Perhaps those
> > that know more about dogs will say I am over-reacting
> > but I don't know.
> >
> > If you have had two unrelated puppies contract cancer
> > so young and close together you MUST look in to your
> > environment. Ask your neighbors if they have dogs with
> > cancer. Find out how many, etc, etc. Your own health
> > may depend on it. What kind of cancer? Is it the same
> > as the first puppy. Look up what is known to cause
> > that kind of cancer and it may give you a clue where
> > to start looking. Is it possible they are chewing on
> > something they shouldn't like paint cans?
> >
> > Start with home environment (chewables), water, soil,
> > air pollutants, etc. If you truly suspect the food
> > then I would look in to where you buy the meat for the
> > dogs. Where do the feed animals come from? Where do
> > they graze. Where is the packing and butchering done?
> >
> > that is what I would do.
> > Jennifer Dudley
> >
> >
> >
>
_____________________________________________________________________
_
> ______________
> > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> > http://search.yahoo.com/search?
> fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
> >
>

Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________

8d. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "rochellemontage" rochellemontage@yahoo.com rochellemontage
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

Jen,

One more thing:
Here's some interesting data....
http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/KnowledgeBase/knowledgebasedetail.aspx?
articleid=30

Best wishes,
Rochelle

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Jen
>
> The puppies are related but very distantly. I thougth the same
thing
> as you did about the house and stuff. Puppies just don't get it
that
> young and that violent and strange form. I have nothing in the
house
> that a puppy can chew on that is not safe, only dog toys, bones
and
> raw hide from the pet store. Dogs never run around unattended. So
all
> I can suspect is food and/or water or cheimicals I use to clean
the
> floor.
>
> About meat, where it comes from - no idea and never will be able
to
> find out. It's a big supermarket chain. I don''t eat it myself, I
buy
> my meat form an organic store, but cannot really afford to do it
for
> the dog, it's $7/lbs and up.
>
> Vickie
>
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Jen Dudley <jend404@> wrote:
> >
> > Vicki,
> >
> > Do you have a positive diagnosis for cancer in the new
> > puppy? I don't know much about dog metabolism and
> > feeding - I am still learning, but I do know quite a
> > bit about tracking disease vs. population density (in
> > humans). I am assuming your dogs are unrelated?? Two
> > young animals with cancer in the same household raises
> > pathogen red flags all over the place. Perhaps those
> > that know more about dogs will say I am over-reacting
> > but I don't know.
> >
> > If you have had two unrelated puppies contract cancer
> > so young and close together you MUST look in to your
> > environment. Ask your neighbors if they have dogs with
> > cancer. Find out how many, etc, etc. Your own health
> > may depend on it. What kind of cancer? Is it the same
> > as the first puppy. Look up what is known to cause
> > that kind of cancer and it may give you a clue where
> > to start looking. Is it possible they are chewing on
> > something they shouldn't like paint cans?
> >
> > Start with home environment (chewables), water, soil,
> > air pollutants, etc. If you truly suspect the food
> > then I would look in to where you buy the meat for the
> > dogs. Where do the feed animals come from? Where do
> > they graze. Where is the packing and butchering done?
> >
> > that is what I would do.
> > Jennifer Dudley
> >
> >
> >
>
_____________________________________________________________________
_
> ______________
> > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> > http://search.yahoo.com/search?
> fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
> >
>

Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________

8e. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

Hi Vickie,

Since there have now been questions on pet toys from China maybe you
should check them out

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/09/pet_food_recalls77.html

Yes, the same breed of dogs do come down with certain types of
cancers...
Pet dogs can reveal much about human cancers in part because of the
animals' tendency to become afflicted with the same types of
malignancies that affect people. Examples abound. The most frequently
diagnosed form of lymphoma affecting dogs mimics the medium- and high-
grade B cell non-Hodgkin's lymphomas in people.

Osteosarcoma, the most common bone cancer of large- and giant-breed
dogs, closely resembles the osteosarcoma in teenagers in its skeletal
location and aggressiveness. Under a microscope, cancer cells from a
teenager with osteosarcoma are indistinguishable from a golden
retriever's bone cancer cells.

Bladder cancer, melanoma and mouth cancer are other examples plaguing
both dog and master. In a different kind of similarity, female dogs
spayed before puberty are less prone to breast cancer than are their
nonspayed counterparts, much as women who have their ovaries removed,
who begin to menstruate late or who go into menopause early have a
reduced risk for breast cancer.

Here's a site that explains it to you.....Scientific American

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=C9F7F979-E7F2-99DF-
3D97694D2A702FED&pageNumber=1&catID=2

Here's one from the National Cancer Institute

Comparative Oncology Program of the National Cancer Institute
(including information about clinical trials for dogs):

http://ccr.cancer.gov/resources/cop/

Hope these help some in explaining cancer in pets and helping you to
realize that feeding your dog raw can not cause him to have cancer,
but plenty of other things can..

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...>
wrote:

The puppies are related but very distantly. Puppies just don't get it
that
young and that violent and strange form. I have nothing in the house
that a puppy can chew on that is not safe, only dog toys, bones and
raw hide from the pet store.

Vickie

Messages in this topic (22)
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8f. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "marblekallie" marble@pipeline.com marblekallie
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

Vicky:

One more thing you need to look at is the vaccinations that these two
had and any other treatment such as heartworm. Also, did you get a
second opinion and is the same vet doing the diagnosis on the new pup
as did on the one that died?

Philippa Jordan
New York City

Puppies just don't get it that
> young and that violent and strange form.

Messages in this topic (22)
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8g. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:14 pm ((PDT))

Howard Salob <itiskismet1968@...> wrote:
> You speak the truth and facts do not lie. It is good to see some
one stand for their convictions.
*****
Howard, you're very kind and I do appreciate your comments, but I
suggest this list is jam-packed full of people who have convictions on
which they can fully rely. I'm just taller and louder and older than
many, and I've learned to elbow my way to the front of the crowd.

I think we should all be very very proud of our collective conviction
that raw is better than not raw.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (22)
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9. Re: quitting raw
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

>>I have nothing in the house that a puppy can chew on that is not safe, only dog toys, bones and
raw hide from the pet store. Dogs never run around unattended. So all I can suspect is food and/or water or cheimicals I use to clean the floor.<<

Vickie -- anything is possible, of course, but personally, I never give my dogs rawhide -- many are imported and are cured with arsenic. I try hard to buy only toys made in the US, too, but that is a hard one. I do suspect, as others have mentioned, that some sort of environmental factor is to blame for your puppies. Have you had this new puppy diagnosed with cancer or do you just suspect it because of similar symptoms to the other pup?

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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10a. Re: Hello-I'm New Intro
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT))

Hi Marci,

The thing here is that the meat going into kibble and commercial dog
food is hardly "good", organic, or free of antibiotics and hormones.

It's from animals farmed the exact same way as the meat at the grocery
store -- in many cases the exact same animals -- but it's carcasses or
parts of carcasses that are classified as *not good enough* to retail
for human consumption.

In other words, I agree with you that supermarket meat is pretty poor
stuff. But it's a step up from what you're feeding now, if what you're
feeding is commercial dog food. (Even the premium brands that use only
"human-grade" meat use the exact same grade as the grocery store
stuff, so at worst, it's an even trade.)

Kristin

>I love the idea of feeding raw but the only place around here to get
>good organic meat is at an organic store and it's very expensive or
>even at the grocery store it's expensive. I really don't want to give
>them commercial meat with added antibiotics/hormones/etc so i've not
>went totally raw

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: raw feeding my Papillion
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:57 pm ((PDT))

"maneal_saros" <micware@...> wrote:
> I have been raw feeding my paperanium for about 3 years and started
> feeding my 5 year old papillion a single leg a day but he is having
> dirarea problems and the paperanium never had any problems. What
shall
> I do?
*****
How did you start feeding raw to your Poms? What are you feeding them
now? With your Papillion, did you just haul off and give him a chicken
leg, or did you start with something easier and less bony first?

Should the Pap be getting different amounts of food than what you feed
your Poms? Maybe you overfed him. Is he producing loose stools (which
are very frequently tied to too much of something or other) or does he
have "real" diarrhea? Diarrhea is usually a sign of baterial overgrowth
or other disgestive illness. Which is it?

What else are you feeding the Pap?
Lots of questions. We need more information.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: Urinary Tract Infections
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:36 pm ((PDT))

"notherdirtybird" <fauxbonhomme@...> wrote:
> Neither is opposed to a raw diet, but they want to be certain they
can
> afford it first.
*****
A species appropriate diet is so logical (as well as healthy and
simple) that a better question would be can they afford NOT to feed
it. What you can do to get their attention and get their approval is
produce a hypothetical week or month menu, including the cost of this
menu and the sources you used to find the food. If you can show them
you are darned serious about this, so much so that you did your
homework (oh euww), I suspect they will reconsider. You may not have
all the answers but knowing where to find answers is practically good
enough.

> Gunner is my almost 7 year old German Shorthaired Pointer who has
> always been in good health. In less than six months, he has had two
> urinary tract infections for seemingly no reason.
*****
Two urinary tract infections are usually one urinary tract infection
improperly treated.

My vet
> recommended C/D, but I declined. I think other measures can be taken
> to help Gunner instead.
*****
Yeah, like getting it right the first time (hey, not your doing, the
vet's).

> I want to address the problem with preventatives (after he's done
with
> his medication, of course).
*****
Here's a link to a column that appeared recently on the San Francisco
Chronicle website. I recommend you read it before you go haring
after cranberry pills et al. Be sure to copy the entire link, both
lines.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?
f=/g/a/2007/09/05/petscol.DTL

> If I can prove that a raw diet would help Gunner, I'm nearly
certain I
> can get my parents to at least switch him over.
*****
There's a lot you can use to prove raw is better. But fixing
Gunner's UTI is about fixing Gunner's UTI. For other justifications
for feeding raw, you might check the list archives, also the Rawchat
archives as well.
Chris O

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13a. Re: Allergy question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:38 pm ((PDT))

"jackie" <jackiehale1@...> wrote:
>
> This is probably a really stupid question, but if a dog is allergic
to
> chicken, would it also be allergic to turkey and duck?
*****
Not stupid!
Not likely.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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14. Raw & Stools (poop)
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:40 pm ((PDT))

How bad is the poop from raw?
In other words: The change over is supposed to be immediate. How long do
they deal with diarrhea?
If there's an introducing of a new meat, am i going to have to deal with
these issues?
I am talking about 3 Great Danes & a Dalmatian to start with....The idea of
cleaning up runny poop all over my house is certainly not a positive for a
food change....
Trina--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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