[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12062

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Ham
From: Karen Swanay
1b. Re: Ham
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: Ham
From: Sandee Lee

2a. {Raw Feeding} Quick Question
From: Brandi Bryant
2b. "Feeding} Quick Question
From: tottime47

3. Raw TREATS?
From: skyli_19

4a. Re: Pet Food Recall (BRAVO)
From: Penny
4b. Re: Pet Food Recall (BRAVO)
From: Penny

5a. New to group & Questions
From: T Smith
5b. Re: New to group & Questions
From: Sandee Lee

6.1. File - Other related lists
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

7a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

8a. Re: HELP PLEASE? AVOCADO PIT :(((
From: delcaste
8b. Re: HELP PLEASE? AVOCADO PIT :(((
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

9a. {Raw Feeding} Hambuger meat
From: Brandi Bryant
9b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Hambuger meat
From: Sandee Lee

10a. Tongue
From: joannrn02
10b. Re: Tongue
From: tottime47
10c. Re: Tongue
From: Caren OConnor
10d. Re: Tongue
From: Yasuko herron

11.1. New to raw
From: Cris Milam

12. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work. I tried and raw is j
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

13. parts is parts
From: jmwise80

14a. Baby Teeth
From: Jo Ors
14b. Re: Baby Teeth
From: Maofryan@aol.com

Messages
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1a. Re: Ham
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:54 am ((PDT))

ham is NOT real food. It is processed and should not be fed. Although I
have run across the occassional person that used the word "ham" when they
mean "pork" or use the term "picnic ham" when they mean "pork shoulder".
Pork is OK...ham is not. Unless you are using it as a training
treat/occassional snacky item. But yes, full of artificial stuff.
Karen

On 9/23/07, carolejc2007 <mooska2me@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Okay, so I'm still new to raw feeding my dogs. I printed out
> the "recipe" page from one of the raw feeding sites and it lists ham as
> a good food source. Isn't ham smoked and full of nitrates? How can
> this be good for the animal?
>
> Carole
>
>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Ham
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:13 pm ((PDT))

Carole,

Look for raw unprocessed hams...great food with nice tough tooth-cleaning
skin! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "carolejc2007" <mooska2me@sbcglobal.net>

Okay, so I'm still new to raw feeding my dogs. I printed out
the "recipe" page from one of the raw feeding sites and it lists ham as
a good food source. Isn't ham smoked and full of nitrates? How can
this be good for the animal?

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Ham
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT))

The ham is the back shank portion of the pig. In the shoulder area there
are two cuts....shoulder butt and picnic shoulder. Fed raw and unprocessed,
they are all wonderful cuts, worthy of feeding.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Karen Swanay" <luvbullbreeds@gmail.com>

> ham is NOT real food. It is processed and should not be fed. Although I
> have run across the occassional person that used the word "ham" when they
> mean "pork" or use the term "picnic ham" when they mean "pork shoulder".
> Pork is OK...ham is not. Unless you are using it as a training
> treat/occassional snacky item. But yes, full of artificial stuff.

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. {Raw Feeding} Quick Question
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:54 am ((PDT))

I like the fact that you can throw down a big pork shoulder and let
them eat... My question is I have 2 puppies..and 2 adult dogs...

When they get full will they walk away from their meals? Even my 5
month old puppy?

Thanks -

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. "Feeding} Quick Question
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi Brandi,

I think this is when "know your dog" is most important.

I have one who would walk away from a gold mine once he's full.
He's always been fed, so he knows food will come again.

I have another little chow hound (terrier) that will chow, rest for a
few minutes, then chow some more, lol.....
I think she'd continue till it was gone or she popped, whichever came
first. So, I have to stay close and remove the extra once she's had
her share....

Carol, Charkee (the gentleman, lol) & Moli(who's a chow hound?)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...>
wrote:

>
> When they get full will they walk away from their meals? Even my 5
> month old puppy?
> Brandi

Messages in this topic (2)
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3. Raw TREATS?
Posted by: "skyli_19" NRB19@aol.com skyli_19
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:55 am ((PDT))

Any recommendations for raw treats that I can carry in my pocket?
Maggie is about to start agility training. I have never trained her
with treats but this group does and it seems to work really well for
the pups learning. The trainer worked with Mag a bit and she used meat
bits but were so tiny maggie got bored so she switched to string
cheese. I had to bite my tongue because I wasn't comfortable with the
dairy...but Maggie loved it and took to the training very fast. Any
opinions on dairy for treats?

I thought maybe I could cut up liver and freeze it. Well, any meat for
that matter. But I don't know that it will stay frozen long and squishy
pockets don't appeal to me. What have you all used?

Nicole & Maggie

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Pet Food Recall (BRAVO)
Posted by: "Penny" redpenn2003@yahoo.com redpenn2003
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:03 pm ((PDT))

Hi Frankie.

Because if they didnt recall it...it would go against one of thier lies as to why you should not feed a species appropriate raw meaty bones diet!

Samonelli, ecollit, etc are common contaminates found EVERYWHERE! When the dogs are fed unnatural food they are more suseptable. The healthier the body is...no chemicals, proper nutrition....the better the dog is able to handle these things.

I do not know what listeria is. Maybe some others can add....

Penny

doguenanny <Dixie4911@aol.com> wrote:
L...... Why are they recalling
it because of salmonella? I feed raw chicken, doesn't that contain
salmonella? How do I respond to my "good intentioned" friends when
they ask about this recall? I've already been through the "raw chicken
and salmonella" speech with them. Why would salmonella in a frozen
prepackaged dog food be any different from the salmonella in the fresh
chicken I feed?.

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4b. Re: Pet Food Recall (BRAVO)
Posted by: "Penny" redpenn2003@yahoo.com redpenn2003
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:09 pm ((PDT))

Ohh my...please forgive me for all those typos!!!!! How embarrassing


Penny

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Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. New to group & Questions
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:09 pm ((PDT))

Hello,
I just joined. I tried a variation of raw several years ago but it didn't
work out.
A member of your group I know irl has again talked to me about the 'real'
raw diet.
I have been doing nothing but reading since then but I do have a couple of
issues/questions I cannot seem to find an answer to.

1. This is very important for me. I believe in the feeding of raw & the
reasons why. I personallly choose to be a vegetarian but will NOT do this
to my dogs, their bodies, I understand, are not like ours. So, with this
said, I want to know about this who body feeding. I honestly do not find
myself able to feed (guts, intestines, etc) & seeing my dogs tearing it up
like that. I won't be able to handle it at all. I'm a wimp. I literally
have nightmares about such just thinking about it. Is there a GOOD simple
guideline I can use?
I've no issue with the bones, feeding chicken, lamb, etc.....but I am
wanting to feed the right amount & variety. I need the weight ratio since I
have Danes.

2. Probably a stupid question: Will feeding raw (like the whole bodies)
cause prey instinct?

I am thankful to the one page I did read about the fish & the information
about the PNW salmon not to be fed. Since I live in the PNW, this was GREAT
info for me!

I cannot stand the smell of liver so I will need to find another form of
training treats....

I plan to make sure I have everything organized & set up before I make this
drastic change for my dogs' benefit.
Thank you for letting me join.
Trina
--

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Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: New to group & Questions
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi Trina,

There are many vegetarians on the list who started out squeamish and are now
delving into intestines, etc! LOL Actually intestines aren't necessary,
but organs are. You do not have to feed entire animals in order to feed
prey model. What you do is feed a variety of body parts from a variety of
sources and call it sufficient. Most people are not able to throw an entire
cow into their yard and let the dogs go at it! :)

You can feed whole chickens, turkeys, rabbits, fish....and BTW that info you
found about not feeding salmon is incorrect! There is the possibility of
fresh caught fish in the PNW carrying a fluke, but it is killed by freezing
the fish. Commercial fish has already been frozen.

A really easy way to begin is get a few chickens, cut them in half or
quarters and hand to dogs. Feed approximately 2-3% of their ideal adult
weight. Once they have adjusted, start adding in beef, lamb, pork, whatever
you can get your hands on. Overall you are going to be feeding lots and
lots of meat (close to 80% of the diet), a little edible bone and organs, so
once they get used to the chicken you will want to add some nice meaty
meals.

You might want to visit the rawfeeding myth site where you will find the
answer to your prey instinct question..and be sure to look at Colby the
"killer".....
http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://rawfed.com/myths/bloodthirsty.html

Also check out Kevin's recipe section where you will see real dogs eating
real food...that will give you more ideas of what we are feeding...
http://rawfeddogs.net

Don't I know you from a Dane list somewhere in the past????

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "T Smith" <coldbeach@gmail.com>

> I've no issue with the bones, feeding chicken, lamb, etc.....but I am
> wanting to feed the right amount & variety. I need the weight ratio since
I
> have Danes.
>
> 2. Probably a stupid question: Will feeding raw (like the whole bodies)
> cause prey instinct?
>
> I am thankful to the one page I did read about the fish & the information
> about the PNW salmon not to be fed. Since I live in the PNW, this was
GREAT
> info for me!

Messages in this topic (2)
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6.1. File - Other related lists
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:43 pm ((PDT))

This list is part of a group of lists run by the same moderation team. Since several of the lists are quite large we often encourage that threads be taken to some of the smaller subject specific lists so you may want to join the lists that cover issues you are interested in now.

The lists are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldrawguys/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catandkittenhealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learntoshow/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DogHealth/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogmentor/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawbreeder/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawPup/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMBLobby/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canineaggression/

And if you are stuck on a particular issue that you just can't seem to work out, try this list:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/rawissues

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BasicRaw/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalFerrets/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVet/
For vets, vet techs and vet students only

There is also a list of lists where other raw feeding lists can be found. Many are breed specific, location specific or subject specific.

http://www.rawlearning.com

Thanks from the moderation team!

Messages in this topic (118)
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7a. File - Admin-Trim it, Sign it, and Sig lines-PLEASE READ!!!
Posted by: "rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com" rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:43 pm ((PDT))

Hello all! (Don't delete without reading. Yes, there is a test later.)

Firstly, the raw feeding list was established in 1999. It has evolved under a couple of different names, but remains with primarily the same list moderation team.

This primary objective of the list is to provide a place where people who
feed raw food or who want to feed raw can discuss this and closely associated issues.

This is not a list to discuss which kibble or home cooking method is best.
There are other email lists that can provide you with that sort of forum.
The forum here is specifically to discuss appropriate raw diets.

*******A learning environment

We aim at all times to maintain a learning environment.
Every so often someone joins the list with a different agenda.
We work hard in the background to do everything we can to keep discussion on topic at all times, and those who don't find the environment comfortable (about 0.5%), we encourage to join other more suitable email lists.

The most important thing is you join a group you are comfortable with.
We acknowledge the vast differences that exist between people and their learning styles, and as you'll appreciate we can't make everyone happy.

Now for a few of the easy rules:

*******PLEASE TRIM YOUR POSTS

This means when you are replying to an email DO NOT include the ENTIRE EMAIL in your reply.

You can include a SMALL portion of the email you are replying to. Try to stick to a couple of relevant lines.

Delete all headers and footers.

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This means when you are to sign your name at the bottom of every single mail you send to the list.

List members who continue to send unsigned posts after being warned risk having their mail deleted!!

**********CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE WHEN THE SUBJECT CHANGES
This is a high volume list. Changing subject lines allows people to delete those messages that are topics they have no interest in. IF you change subject lines properly then when responding to a post of the same subject you should not have to include ANY of the email you are responding too since those reading the thread will be able to follow it anyway.

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*********NEW MEMBERS ARE MODERATED.
You will not get OFF of moderate until you prove you can trim your posts and change your subject lines. ALSO the moderators do not have time to trim your posts for you so if a post comes through moderate that is not trimmed it will be sent back to you to trim before it is sent to the list.

If you are currently off of moderate but stop changing subject lines or trimming posts for some reason you will be put back on moderate.

Following these simple rules will make life easier for folks on digest
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Thanks so much.

List Moderators

Messages in this topic (8)
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8a. Re: HELP PLEASE? AVOCADO PIT :(((
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:51 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> First of all THANK YOU to all who responded to my post.
>
> So far so good. Nothing out of the ordinary. He seems fine.

Hi Carol. I'm in Miami and have a neighbor's HUGE avocado tree
spreading trunks into my back yard. I have to be quicker than the dogs
to get any avocados for myself ;). They eat it all and have never been
sick. I'm sure Spencer will be ok.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (7)
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8b. Re: HELP PLEASE? AVOCADO PIT :(((
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:52 pm ((PDT))

continuing saga....

OK, so he pooped a little bit this morning (his usual very dark, compact,
teeny bit with some straining)...no evidence of any pits or bits of pit.

He ate breakfast (just small portion of cut up beef heart) and seemed fine.

It's 7 hours later and he's doing this little coughy/semi-gaggy thing every
now and then (but he's done that before)...and he's pacing waiting for his
supper.

Question: How long til we're out of the woods here? His digestion runs on
the slow side, so maybe tomorrow? OR, could it become a problem at any time
down the road even after a few days?

And, regarding the blue bandage. They're a mysteray for sure at times...

Thanks for the concern and encouragement.

Carol for Spencer (the heartworm just swallowed an avocado pit to add to the
drama guy....sigh)

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Messages in this topic (7)
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9a. {Raw Feeding} Hambuger meat
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:52 pm ((PDT))

I bought expired hamburger meat that had been markdown "for quick
sale" with a intend to fix it for myself...well now it's brown:(

It's 80% lean, can I feed it to the dogs along with their other meals?
I think someone said that it was just a filler? But I hate for it to
go to waste...

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Hambuger meat
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:57 pm ((PDT))

You can feed it...no problem! Generally it is recommended to not feed
ground meat unless you find a sale you just cannot pass up...but that's
mainly because there is no tooth cleaning action and they can gobble it down
pretty quickly. But for an occasional meal, go for it! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@gmail.com>

> I bought expired hamburger meat that had been markdown "for quick
> sale" with a intend to fix it for myself...well now it's brown:(
>
> It's 80% lean, can I feed it to the dogs along with their other meals?
> I think someone said that it was just a filler? But I hate for it to
> go to waste...

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Tongue
Posted by: "joannrn02" joannrn02@yahoo.com joannrn02
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:52 pm ((PDT))

My small Cairn has been on raw for a few weeks, I just found a store
that sells beef tongue.
Now that I have it, what do I do with it?
Cook it into a stew like someone said or slice it and feed a smalL
amount once a week?
Thanks
JO.

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: Tongue
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jo,

Tongue is a tougher meat, so I have to chunk it up for my small dogs.

You could try a larger piece and see if your dog can eat it that way,
that's the best way....

It's a great meat to feed once the dog is used to eating variety.

If you're just starting off, give him a little bit with the next few
meals and see how he does.

Carol, Charkee & Moli (Yep, we love it!)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "joannrn02" <joannrn02@...> wrote:

> My small Cairn has been on raw for a few weeks, I just found a
store
> that sells beef tongue.
> Now that I have it, what do I do with it?

> Thanks
> JO.

Messages in this topic (4)
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10c. Re: Tongue
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:19 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jo -
I've fed tongue, but it's been a while. I believe I (please don't shoot me rawfeeders) roasted it
then cut it into small portions and fed it that way. As I best recall, my Cavaliers wouldn't eat it raw.
I need to find some more. I'm glad you posted this.
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers
joannrn02 <joannrn02@yahoo.com> wrote:
My small Cairn has been on raw for a few weeks, I just found a store
that sells beef tongue.
Now that I have it, what do I do with it?
Cook it into a stew like someone said or slice it and feed a smalL
amount once a week?
Thanks
JO.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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10d. Re: Tongue
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:44 pm ((PDT))

>Tongue is a tougher meat, so I have to chunk it up for my small dogs.

Hi.I agree. It is tougher meat andI think it is a little fattier than boneless meat (just my feeling).So,I think better to start from small amount and see how much the dog can torelate well will be good idea to try I think.

I keep writing couple of times in the past,but my dog can eat and torelate pork/beef/Elk/Buffalo tongue pretty well but lamb tongue.

She is 35lb dog but can torelate 1oz of lamb tongue only.More than that makes softer loose stool and I end up needing wiping her butt.I am planning to build up thetorelencewith lamb tongue too.

It is bit yucky to handle Tongues but dogs seem to like a lot.

yassy

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11.1. New to raw
Posted by: "Cris Milam" cmilam@comcast.net cris_milam
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:20 pm ((PDT))

Welcome, fellow grey owner! Congrats on the new diet for your dog.
Obviously, she is enjoying it.

Most, if not all, of the problems you are having will spontaneously take
care of themselves.

Her breath will get even better -- to the point where you will hardly be
able to smell it.

Her stinky gas should stop very soon. I think you are having problems only
because she is transitioning off of kibble.

She will get to where she poops about once a day. It will be very small so
don't get freaked about that, either. She may even wait another day or two
before having her first post-raw poop.

The easiest way to start your dog on chicken is to get a whole one and feed
it until it is gone. This way you won't have to worry about too much or too
little bone. Over time, you will find out whether your dog needs a bit
extra bone or a bit extra organ to stay regular.

Since you didn't mention your grey's body type in relation to her weight,
there isn't much way to tell if she needs more than 2-3% of her body weight
in food daily. Duncan weighed a super skinny 73 pounds, needed desperately
to gain weight, has a high metabolism and ate 3 pounds a day. I expect that
means 3-4 pounds for your dog is too much. I'm sure she is happy to eat
that much, but overfeeding her will cause loose stools as well as making her
fat. Personally, I would feed her 2 pounds a day and watch her ribs. In a
couple of days, you will be able to tell if you can/should add more food or
take some away.

Oh, and you might want to stay away from the liver for a few days anyway.
It can cause some severe loose poops very quickly. By the time you need to
feed it, she may have decided that she likes it.

As a caveat, she will probably blow her coat big time with the change in
diet. That's normal, too. You and your broom will become close friends.

Greyt to have you here.

Cris M

Messages in this topic (40)
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12. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work. I tried and raw is j
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:44 pm ((PDT))

Seems to me that he's training you very nicely, there! Of course he will
stop eating if he's found he can get something better by refusing what you give
him. :)

Lynda

In a message dated 9/23/2007 2:02:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
"one_sojourner_one" writes:

Then he started totally refusing the
chicken and would not eat a meal. I then offered a steak and he ate
the appropriate amount for about a day.

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13. parts is parts
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:44 pm ((PDT))

I've tried to get my dog to eat whole prey, fur and all, to no avail.
He did show more interest in wild squirrel, so I'm not giving up on
that route yet.

While cleaning a squirrel earlier today, he stole the tail. Ate it.
Then he took one of the front legs. Ate it, then the other front leg.
When it came to the back legs, though, he would put them down and walk
away with no interest in them at all. I just picked 'em up to sneak
into another meal later.

Any ideas why the back legs weren't eaten? Thanks all!

Michael Wise

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14a. Baby Teeth
Posted by: "Jo Ors" houndshappy@yahoo.co.uk houndshappy
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi all
I'm not new here, but have only just posted!
I switched to raw in June for my two dogs, who responded so well to it
and I really enjoy feeding them proper food. Can't think why it didn't
occur to me sooner to be honest.
I have since acquired a new puppy. Currently he is on raw minced
meat. I'm a little confused as to whether he can have bones, mainly
because he is teething and has very small and wobbly teeth at the
moment. Are bones and poultry necks ok? Would he still be able to
chew them up ok?
Many thanks for your advice in advance.
Jo

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14b. Re: Baby Teeth
Posted by: "Maofryan@aol.com" Maofryan@aol.com waldorfsarah
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:35 pm ((PDT))

Jo
My puppies graduate from Goats milk and minced meat to chicken wings and
necks around 5 weeks....and never look back. Go for it. It will help with
teething and with getting rid of puppy teeth...and getting the adult teeth
erupted. Full steam ahead! Sarah Waldorf, Konigsdorf Shepherds

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