[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12060

There are 24 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Help - Ready to quit
From: schnauzers1015
1b. Re: Help - Ready to quit
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1c. Re: Help - Ready to quit
From: Sandee Lee
1d. Re: Help - Ready to quit
From: Laurie Swanson

2a. Re: newbie nerves
From: Laurie Swanson

3a. Re: First day
From: Laurie Swanson

4a. Re: some tartar on his teeth
From: Laurie Swanson

5a. Re: New to raw.....looking for resources in Las Vegas, NV
From: Laurie Swanson

6a. Re: NEW TO RAW
From: Laurie Swanson

7a. Re: Bone shards in cat vomit
From: Laurie Swanson

8a. Re: Need advice on weight loss for large mixed breed
From: Sandee Lee
8b. Re: Need advice on weight loss for large mixed breed
From: Giselle
8c. Re: Need advice on weight loss for large mixed breed
From: Laurie Swanson

9a. Re: Frozen ??
From: Laurie Swanson

10a. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: one_sojourner_one
10b. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: Kristin
10c. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: Laurie Swanson

11a. Re: New-- with Puppy and diarrhea
From: Laurie Swanson

12a. you want to feed 2 - 3 % of their ESTIMATED adult weight.
From: Kevin Brown
12b. Re: you want to feed 2 - 3 % of their ESTIMATED adult weight.
From: Giselle
12c. Re: you want to feed 2 - 3 % of their ESTIMATED adult weight.
From: Laurie Swanson

13a. Re: Help! Creative solutions req'd...
From: Laurie Swanson
13b. Re: Help! Creative solutions req'd...
From: Giselle

14a. Re: HELP PLEASE? AVOCADO PIT :(((
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

Messages
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1a. Help - Ready to quit
Posted by: "schnauzers1015" havanese1@bellsouth.net schnauzers1015
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:54 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I have been feeding raw for more than a month. I have three Miniature
Schnauzers and two Silky Terriers. They do extremely well on the
chicken, but when I switched to pork they all had really bad poop blow
outs. The first time I switched to pork, I went from chicken one day
to pork the next day....what a mess! The second time I gave them
pork....after two more weeks on chicken....I fasted them for one day
and then gave the pork...the first day that they had the pork they did
ok, the second day....big mess again. Should I stop trying with the
pork? or what?

Dolores DeGroat
havanese1@bellsouth.net

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Help - Ready to quit
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:52 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/22/2007 9:54:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
havanese1@bellsouth.net writes:

Should I stop trying with the
pork? or what?

Dolores,

how about adding a small bite of pork to a chicken meal and gradually
increase the amount of pork and decrease the amount of chicken until they adjust?

or maybe just feed smaller portions of pork.. sometimes over feeding can
cause loose stools too.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: Help - Ready to quit
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:58 pm ((PDT))

Just go slower. Add a bit of pork in with a chicken meal. Or alternate one
meal of pork and one chicken.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "schnauzers1015" <havanese1@bellsouth.net>

The first time I switched to pork, I went from chicken one day
to pork the next day....what a mess! The second time I gave them
pork....after two more weeks on chicken....I fasted them for one day
and then gave the pork...the first day that they had the pork they did
ok, the second day....big mess again. Should I stop trying with the
pork? or what?

Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: Help - Ready to quit
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:32 am ((PDT))

Was the pork enhanced/injected w/broth/saline solution/etc.? This
has happened with my dog a couple times on pork even though it wasn't
enhanced, but it's even more likely if it is. Was there any bone in
the meal? A fatty meal (pork is fattier than chicken) with no bone
can cause looser stools. You might try adding in a little pork to a
chicken meal and gradually increasing the amount until they can
tolerate a full pork meal. When you do feed a full meal of a new
meat, you also might want to feed smaller meals until you see how it
goes. If it continues, you may need to lay off pork for awhile. You
might want to go to turkey next since it's leaner, but it will give
them some variety. There's also beef, lamb, venison, fish,
goat...Just proceed cautiously and slowly with new things if it
really bothers you to deal with loose poops.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "schnauzers1015" <havanese1@...>
wrote:
> The first time I switched to pork, I went from chicken one day
> to pork the next day....what a mess!

Should I stop trying with the
> pork? or what?
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: newbie nerves
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:54 pm ((PDT))

Hi Ramona,

I think most of us have had to get over our anxiety about feeding
bones. Chicken bones aren't as sharp as they seem, but I know what
you mean. You can also feed many other types of bones. I like to
give my 20 lb. Boston gulper lamb necks, pork necks (make sure they
aren't cut into small pieces), any goat parts, turkey breasts and
thighs (as well as other boneless meats and organs). And of course,
remember that bones aren't a huge part of the diet--they need mostly
meat. I wonder if your dog is just figuring out how to eat the new
diet, but she might also want more meaty stuff than necks and backs.
She could also be bored with chicken.

Maybe someone else can answer in a more scientific manner as to why
the bones don't pierce the esophagus. You might also want to check
the rawfeeding myths site if you haven't already:

http://rawfed.com/myths/

Sorry, I can't answer specifically about Reggie's health issues. The
raw prey model helps just about everything, though.

For your size dogs, I think they could eat just about anything--
chicken quarters or halves, turkey hunks, slabs of pork or lamb ribs,
pork shoulder roasts, any hunk of goat/lamb (legs, shoulders, etc.),
fish. No cow bones or bones from other huge animals, but the meat
from them is great. And I sometimes feed beef ribs for the workout
and dental hygiene but remove the bones when they're cleaned off.

The "Works Wonders" book is pretty good, but the best info is
probably on this list. Just read and read the posts and you will be
amazed what you'll learn. Let us know if you have any other
particular questions.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "monami24257" <monami27@...> wrote:
How is it that these very sharp bone fragments don't pierce
> the esophagus on the way down to the stomach?

What would be appropriate
> size 'parts' (from various sources) for 35-40 lb corgis?
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: First day
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:54 pm ((PDT))

Sounds like things went pretty well. See how the girl does in the next
couple days and let us know if she still has issues. She just may have
had enough food for today. Is she at a healthy weight?

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "abeautiful3" <abeautiful3@...>
wrote:
>
> My girl which is 2yrs only wanted to eat one meal do you think she was
> full or just getting use to the raw meat?

Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: some tartar on his teeth
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:54 pm ((PDT))

Hi Vickie,

Anything the dog really has to work at getting the meat off of. And
if it has skin on, that's better too. Pork hunks/shoulders/etc. esp.
w/skin, goats hunks (I get mine at Asian markets), whole rabbits or
chickens...

How big was the turkey part you fed and was it just too big for one
meal? Your dog probably eats about 1-1.5 lbs. per day, so maybe it
was just more than he wanted to eat. If you don't think he's eating
enough when you feed big, you could try another meat, gradually work
up to bigger parts, or feed him more like every other day (or a snack
one day and a bigger meal the next). He should definitely be able to
eat turkey unless something is wrong with his teeth. But he may be
confused about how to do it if he's new and just need some time to
work it out.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...>
wrote:
>
> What exactly do you mean by that? sink into? Can you give some
> examples?

Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: New to raw.....looking for resources in Las Vegas, NV
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:55 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carrie,

You might check this group:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
You can ask this same question and suppliers will answer.

In case you don't get any specific sources, here are some ideas: ask
friends for freezer clean-outs, post on craigslist or freecycle or
other groups like that, talk to hunters and/or taxidermists for
leftovers, look for Asian or Latino markets, check sales ads for
grocery stores. Search past posts on "meat sources."

Laurie

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: NEW TO RAW
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi Michal,

Can you order things in quantity? Do you have a freezer? Are there
markets in less expensive areas of town you can explore? If there
are sources a couple hrs. away, it might be worth it to drive there
every month or two and stock up. If you can find any
farmers/ranchers, maybe you can go directly to them and tell them
you'd like anything they can sell you at a reasonable price, or even
take their culls (animals they are just needing to get rid
of/removing from their breeding programs, old animals, or whatever).

Eggs are fine, just try one and see how it goes and then maybe add
another if all is well. Too many can cause loose stool in some
dogs. You can feed them whole and see if they can figure out how to
crack them, or crack them and put the insides in a bowl.

Do you have any online buying/selling groups over there (like we have
craigslist and freecycle)? You can post your needs there and maybe
find something.

You also might re-post this message with the subject something more
like "Need France Meat Sources." The list volume is so high and that
might help your post not be overlooked.

Good luck,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Michal Cline" <Mcline30@...>
wrote:
>> Clearly, I need help and appreciate your suggestions. We are not
rich
> and their food is costing more than ours--maybe another reason to
> head back?

Messages in this topic (10)
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7a. Re: Bone shards in cat vomit
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:57 pm ((PDT))

In addition to what Giselle said, I was wondering if it could also be
partly a bile vomit thing due to being fed on schedule or having the
schedule changed? It kinda sounds like when my dog used to do that
(the foamy aspect). Not sure if cats are the same. W/dogs, we try to
feed on a random basis to overcome that (not at the same time every
day). Any cat people care to comment?

Thanks,

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Need advice on weight loss for large mixed breed
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:57 pm ((PDT))

Have you checked his thyroid levels? Weight gain and torn ACL are both
symptoms of hypothyroidism.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "cockatoos4" <cockatoos4@yahoo.com>

I've been feeding her raw for a month. She's about 12-15 pounds
overweight, is arthritic, and has a torn left ACL. (She was starving
when I adopted her from our local RSPCA a little over a year ago, and
she put on weight faster than I realized.) She's on a low dose of
generic Rimadyl for the pain. She gets two walks a day, but her
activity level is otherwise pretty low.

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: Need advice on weight loss for large mixed breed
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Gemma!
A suggestion; can you get access to a pool? If you can swim
her daily, the non weight bearing activity will help burn calories
without causing her pain. And it also will help build muscle and body
tone, and retain mobility and flexibility in her joints. It may even
help relieve her arthritis pain.

And, don't try to take the weight off fast. I know being overweight
isn't good for her, but yoyoing her weight up and down can't be
healthy for her either. Slow is better.

I would tend to go for the no trim method, feeding less food, but
keeping the natural balance of fat to meat to skin, leaner proteins in
preponderance, of course, but a good variety.

Can you feed whole prey, including skin, fur, etc.? This would be my
choice. I'd also vote for feeding one meal a day. Better yet, I'd
probably feed every other day. Big Food can be satisfying, even if she
doesn't get to eat every day.

I know you feel that you've compounded her health problems by allowing
her to gain too much weight, but you can't fix her overnight.

Take the time to BE with her, and enjoy her. She wouldn't blame you
even if she could understand the mixture of feelings and misplaced
guilt you have. We all have regrets, let it go. It'll take as long as
it takes, enjoy the journey you are taking together.
HTH
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I have researched the archives and e-mailed privately with a helpful
> group member about the subject of weight loss,
<snip>
> I've been feeding her raw for a month. She's about 12-15 pounds
> overweight, is arthritic, and has a torn left ACL. (She was starving
> when I adopted her from our local RSPCA a little over a year ago, and
> she put on weight faster than I realized.)
<snip>
> I'd be grateful for any advice about anything else I can try,
> reassurance that I'm doing the right thing, or how long I can expect to
> wait before I start seeing results. If this post is more appropriate
> for the Raw Health group, please let me know and I'll post it there.
>
> Thanks,
> Gemma

Messages in this topic (4)
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8c. Re: Need advice on weight loss for large mixed breed
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:59 pm ((PDT))

Bigger dogs generally need less food by percentage of body weight than
smaller dogs, so you might try feeding a little less than 2%.
Hopefully other big dog people will chime in.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: Frozen ??
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:58 pm ((PDT))

If your dog isn't wanting to eat non-frozen meat then I can see doing
it, but if your dog is doing fine with thawed meat, I don't really
see the point. I have to wonder if they enjoy gnawing on frozen
blocks (I know some seem to, but it's hard to believe most would.).
The super-cold temp. also destroys certain bacteria and interferes
w/digestion a bit.

I wondered about the bone issue recently, too, when I fed my dog a
frozen chicken foot. I wondered if it would make it easier to choke,
because it wouldn't be as soft going down. I don't know about
splintering...

Frozen doesn't seem ideal in most cases, or the most natural, but not
sure how much of a compromise it is...

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Staley" <pam@...> wrote:
>
> Just wondering - any pitfalls of feeding raw FROZEN meat? Would the
> bones be too 'hard' or splinter more easily?
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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10a. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "one_sojourner_one" onesojourner@gmail.com one_sojourner_one
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:58 pm ((PDT))

+++++Mod note: please sign all emails +++++++++++

he will eat some kibble. He just prefers the stuff that is not good
for him. I have read through several picky eater threads. none of
these are talking about puppies. Every thing I have read recommends
never fasting a puppy. He has been hungry enough that instead of
eating what I put in his bowl he will go eat some poop.

Messages in this topic (6)
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10b. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "Kristin" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi Peter,

I don't think it's that you're running out of options as it is that you're
giving up on options too early.

I didn't see in your post where it said how long you've been trying raw, but
Sandee says it's been a week? A week isn't nearly long enough to decide that
all those things aren't working.

My dog took almost a week to successfully accept ONE kind of meat. Parading
a lot of variety in front of him in a short time is probably intimidating
him more than it's doing anything else.

You really can set the food in front of the dog and then pick it up and put
it away if he doesn't want to eat it. If that just makes you too nervous,
you can chop something like a chicken breast quarter (with pretty soft
bones) into bite size pieces, maybe sear the outsides, maybe hand feed it to
him a piece at a time. This was the route I elected with Zoe and although it
probably wasn't strictly necessary, it worked to get her weaned pretty
quickly onto crunching down her own chicken quarters with no searing,
cutting or hand feeding.

You cannot let your dog dictate what he will and won't eat; at some point
you have to put your foot down. If you ask me it might as well be with raw.

Kristin

> Well we have offered our 4 month cairn pup chicken, beef, pork and
> fish. He will eat beef and thats it. Unfortunately beef is pricey and
> the bones are not good for a small dog.

Messages in this topic (6)
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10c. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:32 am ((PDT))

Can you give us more details? How many times a day are you feeding and
what have some of your days looked like? What have you tried to feed
and how, and how has the dog responded? He has learned that something
better might be coming and he doesn't really have to eat the first
thing you feed. So you'll need to change that. We can help you. I
think you can fast a puppy for a meal or two--what do you more
experienced puppy people think?

Relax, you can solve this.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (6)
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11a. Re: New-- with Puppy and diarrhea
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi Shelly,

To add to what Giselle said, you also might want to wait on the hearts
and gizzards. Or at least don't just feed a whole meal of those--they
tend to loosen the stool. Stick with meat and bone for a week or so
and then slowly add in a bit of organs if things are going well.

Do you have any particular fears about getting rid of the kibble and
going completely raw? You can always tell yourself you'll try raw for
a few months and if you don't like it, you can go back. But it would
be good if you could give it a good try on its own, without kibble
mixed in to confuse things.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. you want to feed 2 - 3 % of their ESTIMATED adult weight.
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:58 pm ((PDT))

I want to make sure I got this right.

"you want to feed 2 - 3 % of their ESTIMATED adult weight."

I have a 4 1/2 month old English Mastiff, she is 55 pounds. The vet
expects her to be 150 at adult weight.

Should I be feeding her 3 - 4.5 pounds a day.

or 1.1 - 1.65 pounds of raw a day?

Kevin & Baby
Jersey Shore

Messages in this topic (7)
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12b. Re: you want to feed 2 - 3 % of their ESTIMATED adult weight.
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:21 am ((PDT))

Yes.

^_^

Really, just start, and see how it goes.

Pick an amount, feed it for a week, or two, see how she does on it. As
she grows, the percentage will go up, and drop. Its all good. After a
week, or a few, you will be more relaxed, confident and not need to
weigh her, or her food.

The wonderful thing about feeding raw is your pup will tell you what
is best for her, if you pay attention and really see her.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I want to make sure I got this right.
>
> "you want to feed 2 - 3 % of their ESTIMATED adult weight."
>
> I have a 4 1/2 month old English Mastiff, she is 55 pounds. The vet
> expects her to be 150 at adult weight.
>
> Should I be feeding her 3 - 4.5 pounds a day,
>
> or 1.1 - 1.65 pounds of raw a day?
>
> Kevin & Baby
> Jersey Shore
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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12c. Re: you want to feed 2 - 3 % of their ESTIMATED adult weight.
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:32 am ((PDT))

Yes, approx. 3-4.5 lbs. per day. But this is just a starting point--I
think many people just let puppies eat as much as they want. You'll
probably want to offer food 3 times a day at this age and see what
happens. If you need more puppy info, search the archives or ask.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Brown" <jerseykev@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 4 1/2 month old English Mastiff, she is 55 pounds. The vet
> expects her to be 150 at adult weight.
>
> Should I be feeding her 3 - 4.5 pounds a day.
>
> or 1.1 - 1.65 pounds of raw a day?
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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13a. Re: Help! Creative solutions req'd...
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:58 pm ((PDT))

There are lots of grocery stores along the way. How about bringing a
cooler and stopping once you cross the border, and then as often as you
need to. If you have enough space, get enough for a few days or
longer. If you need to stop more often, do that. You might want to
search the archives for other travel tips...people have talked about
particular coolers that work well, etc.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (4)
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13b. Re: Help! Creative solutions req'd...
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:31 am ((PDT))

Hi, Rachel!
This subject has come up several times in just the last few
months.
I put "camping" and "cooler" in the search box on the website, and got
these posts from the archives;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?query=camping+cooler&submit=Search&charset=ISO-8859-1
http://tinyurl.com/2yms9w

You might get a few other relevant posts if you plug some other key
words into the search box.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> OK, here's the deal. In a couple of weeks we're going camping w/
> another family and we're each bringing our puppies.
(<snip>
I
> suppose I could try and pick up something from a grocery store once
> we're down there...if anyone has any tips for where to go in NC it'd
> be greatly appreciated! We'll be in some state/national park (I'll
> find out where exactly tomorrow...))
>
> Any other border crossing experiences?
>
> Many thanks,
> Rachel
> in Ontario, Canada
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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14a. Re: HELP PLEASE? AVOCADO PIT :(((
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:52 am ((PDT))

First of all THANK YOU to all who responded to my post.

So far so good. Nothing out of the ordinary. He seems fine. Slept through
the night apparently comfortably and woke up looking for breakfast this
morning. But, I won't rest easy until I see that first post-pit poop!!!

I'll post again if there are any changes one way or another. And thanks
again for the support and suggestions AND to the moderators for letting this one
through.

well wishes to all,
Carol for Spencer

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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