[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12067

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: conversation at work.
From: metra_co

2a. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: ginny wilken
2b. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Howard Salob
2c. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Tina Berry
2d. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Sandee Lee
2e. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: rochellemontage

3. getting discouraged again
From: mensrea320@aol.com

4a. Re: Tongue
From: tottime47

5a. Deer legs ok?
From: dianna_obrien
5b. Re: Deer legs ok?
From: Tina Berry
5c. Re: Deer legs ok?
From: mgitaville

6a. Re: Hershey squirts
From: Andrea

7a. Re: Digest Number 12064
From: Loraine Jesse
7b. Re: Digest Number 12064
From: Maofryan@aol.com
7c. Re: Digest Number 12064
From: carolejc2007
7d. Re: Digest Number 12064
From: Howard Salob

8a. new member need advice
From: Debi Jones
8b. Re: new member need advice
From: Maofryan@aol.com

9a. Re: Raw Treats
From: Shannon Hully

10a. Re: baby teeth
From: Jo Ors

11.1. new member
From: tracey faust
11.2. Re: new member
From: Sandee Lee

12a. Feeding once a day
From: joeysocgirl

13. Urinary Tract Infections
From: notherdirtybird

14. Allergy question
From: jackie

Messages
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1a. Re: conversation at work.
Posted by: "metra_co" metraco@hotmail.com metra_co
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "DebiC" <dcole6@...> wrote:
>
> I had this conversation at work yesterday and thought you all could
relate to my frustration and desk head moment.
>(snip)
> You feed it RAW!!
> Raw meat is not good for dogs. Do you give them bones too?
> Raw meet is bad for dogs. It makes them mean. Bones will kill
them.

:-) Nope, thankfully I can't relate--I had the dog food conversation
with a co-worker recently, and she seemed curious and interested. I
loaned her my Lonsdale book and explained some basics. Next time I
asked her if she was going to try it out, she said that she already
did, and her dog loves it. And she's already seen amazing results in
teeth, breath, etc.

She even made the switch in the middle of a divorce, a move to new
home, and other difficult life events. Seems like there are a few
reasonable folks out there!! (There are still a few others that think
I'm the crazy dog lady, but I'm working on them.)

Metra

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:43 am ((PDT))

On Sep 24, 2007, at 4:42 AM, vickies_28 wrote:

> Hi All
> Thank you for all your advice here, I know you're all strong believers
> in raw. However I am quiting, as my puppy is showing the same exact
> symptoms as my other puppy that died of cancer at 13 months of age.
> The only thing that they had in common is food. Raw food. They all
> started showing the symptoms approx after 2 months on raw. I know all
> you told me that it's impossible that I did it to my other dog. but

I'd say it's never the fault of an appropriate diet. Your dogs have
some underlying chronic disease - not the cancer, but the
predilection for it, from other insults and weaknesses inherited and
then provoked. Could be vaccines, could be something horrid in their
environment, could be some other medical poison like flea or HW
treatments.

In any case, symptoms are only symptoms, not the end of the world.
I'd get some help searching out the problem, on Rawchat, for
instance, on jstsayno2vaccs or TruthAboutVaccines, or best of all on
ClassicalHomeopathyPets. There is something going on here, and it's
not the food, and it's probably quite reversible at this stage.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (13)
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2b. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:30 am ((PDT))

*** Mod Note: this post trimmed for you! ***

Dear Chris,

You speak the truth and facts do not lie. It is good to see some one stand for their convictions.

Sincerely,

Howard

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:

I suspect that just as with other undesirable traits that come with
the inbred dog, you may have to adjust diet to compensate for the
blankety-blank stuff we do in the name of beauty, but you should not
have to feed them fake food, just different raw. A raw diet will not
cause cancer.

Messages in this topic (13)
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2c. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT))

Ditto what Chris said; raw diet will not cause cancer. Cancer is why I am
now feeding a raw diet - I lost my first 2 gsds to cancer; starting
investigating, and now I only feed raw, do not vaccinate and do not use any
chemicals or preventatives. I try to only feed venison, have 3 freezers to
stock up during hunting season. IMO wild game is the closest thing to prey
model diet. I have been feeding grocery store chicken for 2 months as we
ran out of venison - but it's hunting season now :)
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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2d. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:00 pm ((PDT))

Vickie,

Not only does a raw diet not cause cancer, it is the first thing recommended
if/when a dog does have cancer.
Cancer feeds on carbohydrates....a cancer sparing diet includes good quality
protein, good fat, no carbs. Raw!

I think you need to find out exactly what is wrong with your dog before
assuming he has cancer. Regardless, you are not going to find increased
health by feeding inappropriate foods.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "vickies_28" <vickies_28@yahoo.com>
Thank you for all your advice here, I know you're all strong believers
in raw. However I am quiting, as my puppy is showing the same exact
symptoms as my other puppy that died of cancer at 13 months of age.
The only thing that they had in common is food. Raw food. They all
started showing the symptoms approx after 2 months on raw. I know all
you told me that it's impossible that I did it to my other dog. but
hey, what do you say now?

Messages in this topic (13)
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2e. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "rochellemontage" rochellemontage@yahoo.com rochellemontage
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:07 pm ((PDT))

Vickie,
I'm new here but what I've researched about raw appears to represent
the greatest potential for health in dogs.
In your circumstance there may be other factors that are "similar"
to what your first puppy experienced that you're overlooking, mainly
environmental or possibly your water.
Have your water tested. You may be surprized by what you find.
Also, some cancers can be caused by carpeting or other construction
finish materials.
I doubt highly that the raw diet has anything to do with the
cancer....

Please feel free to email us more details so we can try to help.

Sincerely,
Rochelle

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Vickie,
>
> Not only does a raw diet not cause cancer, it is the first thing
recommended
> if/when a dog does have cancer.
> Cancer feeds on carbohydrates....a cancer sparing diet includes
good quality
> protein, good fat, no carbs. Raw!
>
> I think you need to find out exactly what is wrong with your dog
before
> assuming he has cancer. Regardless, you are not going to find
increased
> health by feeding inappropriate foods.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...>
> Thank you for all your advice here, I know you're all strong
believers
> in raw. However I am quiting, as my puppy is showing the same exact
> symptoms as my other puppy that died of cancer at 13 months of age.
> The only thing that they had in common is food. Raw food. They all
> started showing the symptoms approx after 2 months on raw. I know
all
> you told me that it's impossible that I did it to my other dog. but
> hey, what do you say now?
>

Messages in this topic (13)
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3. getting discouraged again
Posted by: "mensrea320@aol.com" mensrea320@aol.com lespoulets2003
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:31 am ((PDT))

I came home this afternoon to find my dog had pooped all over the place. I
can't seem to get it right. If I give anything other than chicken he goes
all over the floor. If I give a little chicken and then something else it's
about 50/50 he'll go on the floor. If I overfeed obviously he goes on the
floor. He is so super skinny, by breed design mainly, but w/some illness too I
think. He just started seeing Miss Magda. My cat is still going pee on the
floor, I need to start her w/Miss Magda too. Her litter box problems started
when I put her on raw. And now there are fleas all over my house. I
brought them home from a friend of mine's house who didn't tell me she had fleas.
Now all three of my animals are itching, and there are fleas everywhere.
They never had fleas on kibble, and they were not on the meds. I thought fleas
woun't bother them if they were healthy enough, which obviously concerns me.
I have laid down food grade DE on the carpets and the animals, but I don't
know it that's helping. My hubby and I can't pay our bills and are behind on
one, so I'm having a hard time justifying giving my three animals raw meat.
I have an 18 month old daughter and I only have time to really go to the
grocery store and try to look for deals there. I don't shop on Sundays and I
know alot of the grocery store deals are around on Sunday. I'm really close to
putting everyone back on Flint River or Life's Abundance. I guess I'm
posting this so I can get some support or something. I want to keep my animals on
raw, but I don't see how I can do it. I can probably afford to feed chicken
quarters at .40lb w/some occasional beef liver in there. They eat a lot of
chicken quarters now, probably 4-5x a week.

Holly

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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4a. Re: Tongue
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:31 am ((PDT))

Hi Yassy,

I know what you mean! I have one who doesn't tolerate a full meal of
tongue either! All of the different tongue meats seem to give him
runny stools, if he gets to much at once. He does love eating it so
have to keep it on the menu!

No butt wiping for me though...I just turn the hose on the
offending area during the summer and pop them in the tub and use
the shower spay in the winter,lol....

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> She is 35lb dog but can torelate 1oz of lamb tongue only.More
than that makes softer loose stool and I end up needing wiping her
butt.I am planning to build up thetorelencewith lamb tongue too.
>
> It is bit yucky to handle Tongues but dogs seem to like a lot.
>
> yassy

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Deer legs ok?
Posted by: "dianna_obrien" dianna_obrien@yahoo.com dianna_obrien
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:32 am ((PDT))

I have a hunter friend who is offering me deer legs for my dogs. I
can't remember if these are considered "wreck" bones or not. These
would be legs with hair, skin, etc.

Also another hunter friend who is offering me organs. Any tips on what
to accept and what to pass on? These animals will likely be deer or elk.

Thanks,

Dianna

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Deer legs ok?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:33 am ((PDT))

"I have a hunter friend who is offering me deer legs for my dogs. I can't
remember if these are considered "wreck" bones or not. These would be legs
with hair, skin, etc.

Also another hunter friend who is offering me organs. Any tips on what to
accept and what to pass on? These animals will likely be deer or elk."

I take everything but the legs - these are teeth breakers. And unless it's
the upper leg, there is not enough meat on them for them to make worth
while. If it's the upper leg, you can take the bone away once the meat is
gone, but mine do not chew leg or knuckle bones.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Deer legs ok?
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:15 pm ((PDT))

> I take everything but the legs - these are teeth breakers. And
unless it's
> the upper leg, there is not enough meat on them for them to make worth
> while. If it's the upper leg, you can take the bone away once the
meat is
> gone, but mine do not chew leg or knuckle bones.
> --
> Tina Berry - MT
> Kriegshund German Shepherds
> Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
> www.kriegshundgsds.com
>

******Hmmm.... I received 2 whole deer legs last year and hope to be so
lucky this year. Think it depends on the breed.... I am feeding
bullmastiffs so very few bones are an issue. My boys treated the leg
bones of the deer a bit like beef ribs - strip 'em, gnaw on the ends
while, then go slump over after working hard for a meal!

As are most things....to each their own though depending on the dog.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Hershey squirts
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:32 am ((PDT))

Yes, introducing hearts, gizzards, and liver without any bone will
cause loose dark stools. When you introduce new meaty meats (like
gizzard and hearts) as well as organ (liver) you should go slowly and
add it to food they are already ok with. No big deal, just take a
step back until they get back to normal. Next add a little liver
(not the whole thing) to a regular meal. You'll have to work up
their bowel tolerance at first.

> Also my sensitive tummy girl chews on her chicken piece until
> she can fit the remaining piece in her mouth and then swallows it
> practically whole. Will this hurt her?

Nope, this is what dogs do. Chomp until it is small enough to
swallow and then gulp. You could opt for feeding her bigger pieces
so they absolutely have to tear a piece off to swallow it.

> I'm still so scared I might be hurting them by doing something
> wrong!

It's ok, you are doing just fine. Though the dogs seem to know what
to do most of the time, it is us humans that have the real learning
curve.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: Digest Number 12064
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:32 am ((PDT))

How do dogs get cardiac complications from build up on their teeth? Having difficulty understanding what they teeth have to do with the heart.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

_________________________________________________________________
Discover the new Windows Vista
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7b. Re: Digest Number 12064
Posted by: "Maofryan@aol.com" Maofryan@aol.com waldorfsarah
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:53 am ((PDT))

Tooth/tartar build-up is from bacteria. Too many bacteria tend to inflame
the gums, making them bleed easily, and then opening up a pathway for those
"mouth" bacteria to get into the bloodstream. Those "mouth" bacteria can cause
heart issues when they enter the bloodstream. Bacterial waste products are
often toxic to tissue. Your dog can become septic (have a generalized
infection) from a "bad" mouth. Sarah Waldorf Konigsdorf Shepherds

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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7c. Re: Digest Number 12064
Posted by: "carolejc2007" mooska2me@sbcglobal.net carolejc2007
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:53 am ((PDT))

Cardiac problems are caused from the bactaria that build up around
the tooth and the resulting gingivitis. The same is true for you
and me which is why we are told to brush and floss. The bactaria
eventually gets into the blood stream and ultimately affects the
heart.

Carole

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Loraine Jesse <rothburg@...>
wrote:
>
>
> How do dogs get cardiac complications from build up on their
teeth? Having difficulty understanding what they teeth have to do
with the heart.
> Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Discover the new Windows Vista
> http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-
US&form=QBRE
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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7d. Re: Digest Number 12064
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT))

Dear Loraine,

With a compromised immune systems bacteria infections can cause a host of problems, including cardiac issues. Raw diets will not cause these problems.

Sincerely,

Howard

Loraine Jesse <rothburg@hotmail.com> wrote:

How do dogs get cardiac complications from build up on their teeth? Having difficulty understanding what they teeth have to do with the heart.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

__________________________________________________________
Discover the new Windows Vista
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE

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---------------------------------
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8a. new member need advice
Posted by: "Debi Jones" vom_mutig_herz@yahoo.com vom_mutig_herz
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:33 am ((PDT))

Hello to ALL,

We show and breed Rottweilers. Currently we have a female here that is due to whelp in the near future who loves raw. However, due to concerns over E-coli, I have been feeding her cooked meat and canned or fresh fish. I know someone who had a female nursing her litter, the pups contracted E-coli, the bitch was fine but all the pups died. Now, our last litter, different female, we fed her a lot of raw and some kibble, but mostly raw. She did great, had 11 very healthy pups they all just thrived. But due to hearing about this other breeders tragedy, I have been uneasy about feeding the raw to Nina again until after she has whelped and weaned her litter.
I am here to learn a lot more about feeding raw and dog friendly people food, because with all these food and treat scares I am turning into a basket case. lol So I look forward to learning all I can, thank you for having me here.

kindest regards,
Debi

www.vommutigherz.com

---------------------------------
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8b. Re: new member need advice
Posted by: "Maofryan@aol.com" Maofryan@aol.com waldorfsarah
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:53 am ((PDT))

Debi
The other dog didn't get e-coli from raw food. The puppies got it going
through the vaginal canal...the vulva is located right under the "poop chute"
and the vaginal canal is easily contaminated. They should have been
diagnosed early....mastiff types (like Rotties) have the conformation to encourage
contamination of the vulvar area...so it is not totally uncommon for puppies to
contract e-coli...and it should be treated when they become weakened....and
before they start to die. Sarah Waldorf Konigsdorf Shepherds

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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9a. Re: Raw Treats
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

Anne,

Where do you get your freeze-dried liver and hearts? I'd love to get
some for my guy! :-)

Shannon H.

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10a. Re: baby teeth
Posted by: "Jo Ors" houndshappy@yahoo.co.uk houndshappy
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:31 pm ((PDT))

Hi
He's a 5 month old English Springer Spaniel. On the go ahead from
here I fed him poultry necks and a chicken wing tonight and he loved
it!! I think it really helped his gums.
Thanks for all your advice.
Jo

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michael Moore <m-tak@...> wrote:
>
> >>I have since acquired a new puppy. Currently he is on raw minced
> meat. I'm a little confused as to whether he can have bones, mainly
> because he is teething and has very small and wobbly teeth at the
> moment. Are bones and poultry necks ok? Would he still be able to
> chew them up ok?<<
>
> Jo - you didn't mention how old (I'm assuming around 4 mos.
since he's teething) or what breed your new puppy is, but here's
my .02 worth. My Corgi puppies could eat bone-in chicken breasts,
including the bone, at about 6 wks. Poultry bones in general, and
chicken in particular, are quite soft. Most puppies have no trouble
with them. I will tell you that my Corgis took a loooooong time to
eat bones while they were teething, but still got through them. I
say, give the fella some bone-in parts and let him try!
> However, except for toy/small breeds, I consider necks rather
boney -- unless you add some meaty boneless meat to them.
>
>
> -- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly
Golden rescue) in NW Ohio
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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11.1. new member
Posted by: "tracey faust" traceyf@uni.edu blacks.silver
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:07 pm ((PDT))

Welcome Shara!
Tell us about you and your pet so we can help you with pros and cons. THings like where your from, age and breed of dog, health problems with your dog. Things like that we can address here.
 
Trace

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11.2. Re: new member
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:16 pm ((PDT))

Shara,

The pros are feeding a dog the food he is designed to eat....so better
health, cleaner teeth, even more stable temperament.

The cons are.....ummm, I can't think of any! Other than becoming obsessed
with finding good deals and then not having enough freezer space! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "shara brown" <scoder@charter.net>
Im a new member.I just joined today!Someone told me about this group
and feeding raw meats to dogs!I now feed dry food to my dog and i
thought i would stop by and check out more about feeding my dog raw
foods!Im just woundering if any of you have had any problems with feed
your animals raw meats?What are the pro's and con's of feed raw meats!

Messages in this topic (79)
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12a. Feeding once a day
Posted by: "joeysocgirl" joeysocgirl@yahoo.com joeysocgirl
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:25 pm ((PDT))

I have been feeding my golden raw for about 3 months now and he is
doing great!I feed him once a day usually in the evening , which he
doesn't seem to have a problem with. I still live at home which makes
it hard for me to do things my parents my not agree with, they think i
should start feeding him twice a day. Which I don't believe there is a
good reason to. I would really like any opinions on this, It will
really help me out alot. I really enjoy reading what everyone has to
say about different post and try to improve on my knowledge on raw.
Thanks,

Melissa

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13. Urinary Tract Infections
Posted by: "notherdirtybird" fauxbonhomme@gmail.com notherdirtybird
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:15 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!

I was referred to this group by someone on Dogster. I was told some
people here have more experience with the problem my dog is having.

First, I want to say that my three dogs are not currently on a raw
diet. I have, however, been researching it for about six months now
and I do want to switch over at some point, when I am able. I'm 17 and
live at home with my parents, who pay for the dogs' food right now.
Neither is opposed to a raw diet, but they want to be certain they can
afford it first.

Gunner is my almost 7 year old German Shorthaired Pointer who has
always been in good health. In less than six months, he has had two
urinary tract infections for seemingly no reason. This is odd to me,
because I've always felt Gunner is the healthiest of the three. My vet
recommended C/D, but I declined. I think other measures can be taken
to help Gunner instead.

I want to address the problem with preventatives (after he's done with
his medication, of course). My mom and I bought cranberry pills which
he will get daily after his round of medication. I've also heard Apple
Cider Vinegar can help, so that will be put in their water soon.

I have heard stories of cats who have recurrent UTIs switching to raw
and having it help. Something about the extra moisture in raw meat is
helpful. Has anyone here dealt with anything similar to this? If so,
were the results positive.

If I can prove that a raw diet would help Gunner, I'm nearly certain I
can get my parents to at least switch him over.

I know raw is not the cure, but it can't hurt, I would think.

Any advice on this topic would be really helpful. Thank you in advance!

Messages in this topic (1)
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14. Allergy question
Posted by: "jackie" jackiehale1@bellsouth.net jackieoscar2000
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:15 pm ((PDT))

This is probably a really stupid question, but if a dog is allergic to
chicken, would it also be allergic to turkey and duck? Thoughts?
Thanks,
Jackie

Messages in this topic (1)
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