Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12098

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: A few problems with raw diet
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: A few problems with raw diet
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: A few problems with raw diet
From: great_dane_devotee

2a. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
From: tottime47
2b. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
From: tottime47

3. Ostrich bones
From: ms1616emc

4a. Re: Constipation? Bone Blockage?
From: Kathie Middlemiss

5.1. New Member
From: Carol Dunster
5.2. Re: New Member
From: Barb
5.3. Re: New Member
From: Sandee Lee
5.4. Re: New Member
From: Carol Dunster
5.5. Re: New Member
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Re: what to do
From: Shannon Hully

7a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
From: Shannon Hully
7b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
From: Karen Swanay

8. {Raw Feeding} Update on Max
From: Brandi Bryant

9a. Cheap meat
From: girlndocs
9b. Re: Cheap meat
From: aliciamyan

10. Day 4 of Raw and WILD!
From: aliciamyan

11a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
From: Maiakitas@aol.com
11b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
From: ada

12a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: Caren OConnor
12b. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: cypressbunny
12c. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: Caren OConnor

13. First RAW WITH BONES served today!!
From: alexanderdewey

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: A few problems with raw diet
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "suburbancow"
<lizzieodonnell@...> wrote:
>
> ***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***
>
>
> I asked on another
> message board about this problem and they said I shouldn't
> be feeding
> my puppy a raw diet and that I sohuld wait til he's an adult.

I don't know what to say except they are wrong. Many breeders on
this list ween their puppies directly to raw, never ever feeding
kibble.

> I took my pup out to play with the other dogs and he's bouncy and
> playful and acting normal but in the 15 or so minutes I was
> out there
> he peed three normal-length times.

Could have been excitement(most likely cause), could have been
submissive urination, could be UTI.

> I always thought he drank a little
> too much water than normal dogs.

Normally, raw fed dogs drink less water than kibble fed because they
get a lot of moisture in their food. I'm not sure if puppies need
more water than adults.

> I took my pup for his third set of shots about two weeks ago so
> it has
> nothing to do with an reaction from the shots I'm sure.

Don't be real sure. It's still possible.

> His poop is
> also very small and from what I gather it's somewhat
> liquidy because I
> can see circular areas in the concrete from where he pooped.

I don't really understand this statement. It's normal for raw fed
dogs to have much smaller poops. I don't understand what you are
saying about circular areas on the concrete. Don't you see the poop
immediately after it comes out? What does it look like at that time?

> I saw one of them and it was dark but not
> black, and it had an odd smell to it.

The color of the poop is determined by the food that it is made from.

> It didn't smell like normal
> poop. Smelled very strange.

That could mean upset tummy or could mean more serious things.

> One last thing.. I'm thinking about changing my vet for these
> reasons... Please tell me if they're valid or if I'm just being
paranoid:
>
> 1.) Regarding my pup's temperature. My vet said his temp
> was slightly
> elevated because he was scared of being in his office. It was 102
> during the second visit and 103 during the last visit.

I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

> He also peed on
> me when I went last time when they were taking his temperature
> probably from being scared but I'm sure a regular
> temperature would be
> 101 and that 103 is quite high.

I think 102 is normal and 103 is notihng to worry about.

> 2.) The vet gave the pup a physical exam only the first time I went
> (which was his second set of shots). He looked at his eyes, ears,
> teeth, smoothed his hand down his body, checked the groin area, and
> expressed his glands. During the third set of shots I didn't
> even see
> the vet, the vet tech administered the shots and didn't
> check anything
> but his temp.

I wouldn't be concerned about that. He doesn't need a checkup every
few weeks.

> 3.) He received rabies and DHLPP (I tihnk that's the acronym)
> in the
> same shot.

I would be concerned about that. I have never heard of those in the
same injection but I am not a vet and don't quite know everything
yet. :)

> Should I change my vet?

Can't tell you. I would have a talk about vaccinations AFTER you
have researched them yourself. I would also talk to him about
anything else you are concerned about and let him explain himself.

> And does what I described sound like a UTI or
> some issue with his kidneys?

Probably just a UTI if even that serious.

> My puppy has been eating chicken wings, necks, ground beef, ground
> turkey, I gave him leg quarters a couple times, and I don't think I
> give him enough big bones to chew on but I have been giving
> him beef
> bones since his adult teeth are coming in.

By now he is probably too large for chicken wings and necks. He is
probably large enough to swallow them whole and thats not a good
thing. I wouldn't feed those anymore. Feed whole turkey parts
instead of ground. Feed whole beef parts instead of ground. Forget
giving him beef bones. They are too dense to feed.

> I also give him a veggie
> mixture that includes leafy greens, cottage cheese, ACV, eggs with
> shells, carrots, other vegetables that I have available and I throw
> some fruit in there if I have it. I blend this all down to a
> pulp and
> feed it to him about once every other day. Should I up the veggies?

NO! You should cut them out completely. Your dog is a carnivore
and has no dietary need for fruits or veggies in any form. He gets
all the nutrition he needs from meat, bones, and organs.

Think of it like this. The reason you puree the veggies is because
your dog is incapable of digesting them. If he needed them
nutritionally, don't you think in millions of years of evolution,
they would have developed a method for digesting them? My dogs
haven't had a fruit or veggie in 5 years and as far as I know they
are perfectly healthy.

> He
> gets in total about 2-2 1/2 lbs of food a day split into two meals.

The volume doesn't matter. His looks are what matters. If he is of
good build, feed him the same volume. If he is heavy, feed less.
Too fat? Feed more. Remember thin is healthier than fat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: A few problems with raw diet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:56 pm ((PDT))

First of all, the idea of not feeding a puppy a raw diet is nonsense.
Appropriate diet is crucial to proper growth.

I really don't think you have a problem here. I would suggest adjusting the
diet and see what happens....unless of course the puppy starts acting
lethargic, not eating or drinking, vomiting, etc.

Get rid of all the veggies, fruits and other unnecessary ingredients
(cottage cheese, ACV), start feeding some nice whole raw meaty bones rather
than ground meat and bony chicken parts, and I think you will see a
difference. Oh, and no big bones to chew on....those are the tooth
breakers.

Poop changes depending on what is being fed....ground meats, fruits and
veggies are going to produce stools that will differ in smell and texture
from those after a bone-in meal.

And *stop* with the vaccinations. He's had enough to kill an elephant so
far! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "suburbancow" <lizzieodonnell@houston.rr.com>

My puppy has been eating chicken wings, necks, ground beef, ground
turkey, I gave him leg quarters a couple times, and I don't think I
give him enough big bones to chew on but I have been giving him beef
bones since his adult teeth are coming in. I also give him a veggie
mixture that includes leafy greens, cottage cheese, ACV, eggs with
shells, carrots, other vegetables that I have available and I throw
some fruit in there if I have it. I blend this all down to a pulp and
feed it to him about once every other day. Should I up the veggies? He
gets in total about 2-2 1/2 lbs of food a day split into two meals.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: A few problems with raw diet
Posted by: "great_dane_devotee" libpowers@mac.com great_dane_devotee
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

Lizzie,

I can't address all your concerns, but as far as diet, you wrote:

I also give him a veggie
> mixture that includes leafy greens, cottage cheese, ACV, eggs with
> shells, carrots, other vegetables that I have available and I throw
> some fruit in there if I have it. I blend this all down to a pulp and
> feed it to him about once every other day. Should I up the veggies?

I tried the raw diet you are feeding, and it was way too much work. You can do all that
grinding and stuff, but if your life contains much more than a pup, eventually you burn out.
This forum encourages the feeding of a prey model diet which is 80% meat, 10% organs, and
10% meaty bones. Many people are feeding pups so you might want to peruse the archives
for suggestions.

I've been doing this style of raw diet and it is much easier than the grinding, etc.

Blessings with your new pup,

Libby

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:57 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jacki,

Yep, that was the reason for the gloves, lol.

You could try some vinegar on your hands, that usually works....

Carol, Charkee & Moli ( we love the smell!)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "matrimentor" <matrimentor@...>
wrote:

> It's lovely, but now I understand what people mean when they say it's
> stinky! I should have read your post first about wearing gloves.
> I'm not squeamish about stuff like that, so I just dug in with my
> bare hands. Now I'm having trouble getting the tripe smell off of
> them ;-)
>
> jacki

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

Thank You Chris O,

That is always good info to file away, as I've not had the
pleasure :) of
goat guts yet, but definately look forward to it, hahahahaha....
I might add so does Moli, lol.

Carol, Charkee & Moli (who eats everything!)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
I heaved the bucket contents over the fence and let
> my three retrievers eat of it and everything disappeared promptly
> except for the stomach contents, which was picked at but not
devoured.
> The stomach tissue itself was nibbled away from the ddigesta.
>
> I suspect there will be little processing required with a young
lamb's
> stomach.
> Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3. Ostrich bones
Posted by: "ms1616emc" auntie_bear@hotmail.com ms1616emc
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:15 pm ((PDT))

Has anyone ever fed ostrich knuckles? I see them on my supplier's
wesbiste, but not sure how big they would be (didn't even know
ostrich's has knuckles!). I've a 12 lb. chihuahua-god-knows-what mix
and don't want something to big for her to chew up.

Thanks!

- Sandra

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Constipation? Bone Blockage?
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:39 pm ((PDT))

Update:

Max seems fine though perplexed with my following him around to watch
him poop. He keeps looking over his shoulder at me like "What *do* you
want, mom? Sheesh!"

He's eating and drinking and bouncing around like normal, so maybe he
was a little constipated but otherwise he's great.

Kathie, Mom to:
Jake Lab/something mix - 6 years/98 pounds
Max Lab - 13 weeks/30 pounds
Ruby Lab/shepherd mix - 12 weeks/20-ish pounds

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5.1. New Member
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:39 pm ((PDT))

Hi!

I have been active with animals my entire life and have bred and shown
dogs for many years. However, a few years back I retired from the dog
showing and breeding to spend more time with my family.

I have access to several good sources of raw food for my dogs and
decided that it is time to look into going from supplementing their
kibble with raw food to a full diet. Before I do this, I want to
research so that I feed them a healthy diet, not just whatever I
happen to have on hand.

I have access to raw liver, heart and tongue, mostly liver. A good
friend of mine gives me the offal when he butchers, his beef is raised
on grass and finished on corn and peas, its natural and healthy. His
butcher can get me raw bones too. I raise ducks for our own eggs and
they free range during the day, so I have healthy eggs. I can buy
pastured/farm raised chicken too, though its pretty pricey. I bake our
bread, it is made with 1/3 fresh ground whole wheat flour and other
healthy ingredients - I guess that's not raw, but was wondering how
that would affect the diet?

One of my Silky Terriers is 12, two of them are 11 and one is 4. They
weigh between 9 and 13 lbs.

I am interested in learning how to combine what I have into a good
diet for them, what I might want to add to these ingredients and how
to improve their tooth health. (They do currently need cleaning rather
badly - will a raw diet with bones do the job, or should I go ahead
and get them cleaned?)

So... there is my situation, I'm looking forward to the ideas you all
have!

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (119)
________________________________________________________________________

5.2. Re: New Member
Posted by: "Barb" behaven1@telus.net behavensnikko
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:51 pm ((PDT))

All sounds good except the bread. No grain products should be part of
their diet. Fruit & vaggies OK in small doses but not essential.
Meat,liver & bones sound great as well as raw eggs.Bones are a great
teeth cleaner. I check on a weekly basis & if there is a patch, I
scale it off!
Cheers/Barb
Behaven Shelties--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Dunster
<cedunster@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> I have been active with animals my entire life and have bred and
shown
> dogs for many years. However, a few years back I retired from the
dog
> showing and breeding to spend more time with my family.
>
>
> ~ Carol
> _____________
> Carol Dunster
> cedunster@...
>

Messages in this topic (119)
________________________________________________________________________

5.3. Re: New Member
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:07 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carol,

I would wait a while on the tooth cleaning. You'd be surprised how quickly
they will clean up once fed properly.

Sounds like you have a few good sources for your supplies. Free organs and
any other beef meat you can get your hands on is great. Ask for the tripe
also. Best leave the bones behind tho unless they have tons of meat left,
which is doubtful coming from a butcher.

Overall you want to concentrate on feeding lots of meat from a variety of
protein sources and body parts, a little edible bone (around 10% of the
overall diet) and of course organs, also around 10%, liver being half of
that amount. Eggs are great but not a huge portion of the diet. Oh, and no
bread! :)

Chicken isn't necessary, but is a good starting place and has nice soft
easily digestible bones for little guys like yours. You might want to use
chicken occasionally for bone intake and concentrate on meaty meals from
other sources....beef, pork, lamb, venison, etc.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Carol Dunster" <cedunster@centurytel.net>

Messages in this topic (119)
________________________________________________________________________

5.4. Re: New Member
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:58 pm ((PDT))

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:07:23 -0700, you wrote:

>Overall you want to concentrate on feeding lots of meat from a variety of
>protein sources and body parts, a little edible bone (around 10% of the
>overall diet) and of course organs, also around 10%, liver being half of
>that amount. Eggs are great but not a huge portion of the diet. Oh, and no
>bread! :)

What sort of quantities of meat/chicken necks would I start with?
Would it benefit them to have the large bones just to chew on, there
is a bit of meat on them, they are not completely cleaned off. Of
course they are pretty huge for my little guys. :)
>
>Chicken isn't necessary, but is a good starting place and has nice soft
>easily digestible bones for little guys like yours. You might want to use
>chicken occasionally for bone intake and concentrate on meaty meals from
>other sources....beef, pork, lamb, venison, etc.

Is it beneficial to use different meats, or would the same thing
regularly be fine? I have those great sources for quality beef offal,
but would have to pay for anything else. I don't mind that, of course,
and plan to buy chicken necks.
~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (119)
________________________________________________________________________

5.5. Re: New Member
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:26 pm ((PDT))

Start with 2-3% of their ideal adult weight per day. I wouldn't waste time
or money on chicken necks. If you are going to feed chicken, you want to
feed through an entire chicken. Necks are far too small and bony. You can
begin with only chicken, then slowly add in some of the beef, but overall
there is benefit to variety in body parts and proteins.

There is no benefit to chewing on large bones devoid of meat. That only
serves to wear and break teeth. If there is some meat, you could let them
have the fun and exercise of removing it, but once that is accomplished, the
bone needs to go!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Carol Dunster" <cedunster@centurytel.net>

Messages in this topic (119)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: what to do
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:51 pm ((PDT))

Aren't there any petsitters or friends who can feed them? Cats don't
do rotting food well, they're not designed to be able to stomach it.

Shannon H.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:11 pm ((PDT))

It really depends on where you live. I'm in Michigan and the only
places I can find unenhanced chicken is where they sell Amish and
they're $1.79/lb at the cheapest for whole chickens. :-P Kinda
sickening.

Shannon H.

>Unehnanced chickens aren't too hard to
> find or too expensive for that matter.

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:40 pm ((PDT))

> Itchiness is not always diet related. It is one of the most common signs
> of inhaled allergies which kibble or no will still be an issue. IF you get
> the dogs onto a quality diet that enhances the immune system and does not
> depress it will help. Like another poster, I do not concern myself with
> enhanced meats. If I can get the "pure" stuff then I buy it. If all I have
> at that time is enhanced then I feed that. It's not my preference but I see
> no ill effects in my pets.
>

Karen

>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8. {Raw Feeding} Update on Max
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:37 pm ((PDT))

I wanted to update all of you on Max, and take a minute to personally
thank Chris O and Michael and Anne Moore for helping me!! First,
history just in case you don't know the fully situation.

Max is my 8 will be 9 this November German Shepherd. He's been bald
from back behind his withers down to his tail, down all 4 legs, on his
belly. He has chewed himself raw in places where they were bleeding
and he had goopy eyes. I could see fleas on him, so I asked for help
off list.

Following the advice, I gave him one vial of Frontline, just him no
one else. Got some Fish Oil, giving him 4 in the morning and 4 in the
evening. He won't take it like my other dogs, so I have to snip the
end of it off and put the oil on a pork chop, or chicken or cheese.
But I'm making sure that he does get it! And I have ordered some DE.
Well the results are that he's stopped itching quite so much, and he's
starting to grow his hair back. His eyes have stopped getting so
icky... he's getting better.

So, thank you so much to Chris O and Ann Moore for all the advice that
you've given me....I really do appreciated it!!

Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Cheap meat
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:49 pm ((PDT))

I've noticed a handful of posts from people mentioning they don't
think they can afford variety in the prey-model diet.

I just wanted to say that there are probably avenues out there that
you haven't considered.

Don't underestimate the value of Craigslist and Freecycle, especially
if you live within driving distance of a major city. I didn't expect
much from my Freecycle post but I scored something like 10 lbs of
LAMB, and another 10 or 12 lbs of miscellaneous freezerburned meat.
Free for the taking -- of course I have to count gas cost to pick it
up, but even considering that, I got the meat for a LOT less than my
$1/lb budget.

My Craigslist posts have attracted offers so far from a small poultry
processor; the owner of a frozen-food locker who often finds himself
tossing people's frozen goods; a hunter wondering could I use deer,
elk or bear; a fellow completely emptying his freezer; and a nice lady
who's giving me the legs and innards of the two goats she'll be
butchering in late Oct. Some of these people are trading me for
homebaked goods and some just want me to take the stuff.

I've had to turn down some of the offers because of distance, of
course, but it was still far more fruitful than I imagined. Don't have
a freezer to store all your swag? Check Craigslist for that too. My
husband just hauled home a FREE freezer for me -- but we routinely see
them selling for about $50 in the Seattle area.

I think Giselle had the list of creative ways to get inexpensive meat
and maybe she'll link to it for us. But don't overlook the potential
for networking with people who have what you need, and don't need it
themselves.

www.craigslist.org

www.freecycle.org

Kristin

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Cheap meat
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:39 pm ((PDT))

> Don't underestimate the value of Craigslist and Freecycle,
especially
> if you live within driving distance of a major city. I didn't expect
> much from my Freecycle post but I scored something like 10 lbs of
> LAMB, and another 10 or 12 lbs of miscellaneous freezerburned meat.
> Free for the taking -- of course I have to count gas cost to pick it
> up, but even considering that, I got the meat for a LOT less than my
> $1/lb budget.

****
Can you share how you worded your ads? Did you state what you were
using the meat for? I'd love to go this route, but don't want to
attract the wrong attention and it sounds like you must have done it
right to get the responses you did.

I'd also like to offer the suggestion of using word-of-mouth. I've
been telling everyone I know about feeding raw and to keep me in mind
when cleaning out their freezers. By doing that, my friend, whose
husband is bird/game hunter and fisherman, told me she had duck,
pheasant and fish in her freezer she wanted to get rid of. As the
saying goes, birds of a feather flock together...so I now have
an "in" with a group of sportsmen.

Thanks,
Alicia

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10. Day 4 of Raw and WILD!
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:12 pm ((PDT))

We are in our 4th day of feeding raw (whole bone-in chicken breasts)
and one of our dogs seems to be adjusting...too well, if that's
possible. Moose, almost 3yo GSD woke up this morning with more
energy then he knew what to do with. He's also been sleeping very
sound throughout the night and he looks forward to meal times with
great anticipation - not so much when he was given kibble - take it
or leave it attitude. My husband had to take him out to do the off-
site farm chores by himself so he could run some of the "extra"
energy off. Hubby said he took off across the cow pasture running
and jumping like one of the calves. He was driving me nuts while I
was trying to do my chores - bouncing around, back-talking when told
to leave the barn, couldn't maintain his sit-stay for more than 30
seconds. He is normally a very active, obedient dog, but today he is
absolutely crazy with "joy"? Is it my imagination, or could raw
really be affecting him this way so soon? Or visa-versa, was kibble
slowing him down that much? His shedding and itcy skin are still an
issue, but I expect that will take a good month or more to go away
(hopefully). Haven't heard any of the belching from him like we have
in the past either. Just curious if anyone else had similar
experiences...

Thanks,
Alicia

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
Posted by: "Maiakitas@aol.com" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:16 pm ((PDT))

Steff,

I can sympathize with you about your dogs. I am in a similar boat. I am
feeding two, 2 1/2 year old Akitas raw and still new to the whole process. I've
only been doing it since July 1st, but I started with dogs that had no health
issues, and did not expect to see any dramatic changes. I truly in my heart
believe that a raw diet is the way to go. My bitch, Bailey took to it like the
proverbial fish to water and is doing great. My male, Beau, on the other hand is
dropping weight. I have kept him on the thinner side when not in the show ring,
so he did not need to loose weight, but now looks terrible. He is white and
now has terrible tearing and staining, which he never had any tearing prior to
a raw diet. I too have read the posts about allergies, detoxing, etc., but he
had no allergy issues prior. His skin is fine. He has currently blown his coat
so I can't judge his coat quality, but he does not seem to get any real
pleasure from eating the raw. He misses many meals, and I have raised Akitas for
almost 25 years, so I'm not one of these people that has a problem with a dog
missing meals, but when you seem to miss more meals than you want to eat, that
is a reason to be concerned. He has been to the vet for a complete checkup and
blood panel, and everything is fine, so I know he is not sick. He is a really
big boy and is down to 105 lbs. I had planned to show him this fall, and I am
seriously entertaining putting him on Innova Evo and adding raw to it to see
how that does to get some weight back on him. I am fortunate that everything I
have given both dogs seems to agree with them and I have tried giving him
fattier meats. Like tonight, I put a pork loin down for him and he didn't touch
it. His sister ate hers with gusto and would have been more than happy to have
more. The times I have gotten him to eat the most has been when his meat was
seared and sprinkled with garlic. I don't baby him when I put the food down. He
gets it. I leave to go do whatever. He has about 10 minutes to eat it, if he
doesn't, I pick it up until the next meal. Dogs are fed in either separate pens
or crates.

Again, maybe the experienced people can offer suggestions. I'd love to keep
him on straight raw, but not sure I can. Help! :o)

Regards,
Carla

**************************************
See what's new at

http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
Posted by: "ada" mom2moz@yahoo.com mom2moz
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:40 pm ((PDT))

--- Maiakitas@aol.com wrote:
> The times I have gotten him to eat the most
> has been when his meat was seared and sprinkled with
> garlic.
> Carla

Hi Carla,

Have you tried offering your big boy his meals frozen?
My Mozart will only eat IF it's frozen/partially
frozen. He just can't stand the feel of raw in his
mouth, and this is his fifth(?) year. I doubt he'll
change. One can almost see the "eeewwwww!" as he
snurls his lip. He also subscribes to the
no-RAW-on-my-paws approach to meals, so goes to great
lengths manipulating his meat with his mouth and
feeding cloth. A riot to watch.

ada
mo (silkie/shih-tzu/maltese mutt) & abbie (yorkie)

"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole." ~ Roger Caras

____________________________________________________________________________________
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:58 pm ((PDT))

Denise -
I was not clear on my description. She pushed on the foreleg from behind at the top of the leg where it connects to the body.
I was with my handler this weekend and we put all the pups on the table and took a close look. The forelegs on my girl appear to bow out.
I've reduced the calories and am allowing more activity. Am I going about this correctly?
Thanks, so much, Denise and everyone for sharing your knowledge:) This is the reason why this list is one of my favorites:) I positively can't live without it:)
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Denise Strother <denisestrother@yahoo.com> wrote:
Umm, am I to understand by that by "pushed on the forleg from behind"
you mean in the area of the knee? Denise

I do not see the legs bowing out but she pushed on the foreleg from
behind and it did give way more on my girl than on the other two boys.

---------------------------------
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Caren OConnor <cavkist@...> wrote:
>
> Excess calcium from the bone is always excreted in the stool? Can
you confirm?

*** In rawfed pups? Yes, within reason. I'm not advocating a diet
really heavy in bone, but you can observe the phenomenon yourself by
looking at the stool. If you feed 10-15% bone, the stool will be
some shade of brown, from tan if you are feeding white meats, to
dark brownish black for red and organ meats. As you increase the
bone content, the stools lighten in color. If you feed a lot of
bone, the stools will be whitish and chalky.

*** Also, based on my own observations as well as talking with other
NR breeders, rawfed puppies seem to deal much better with "too much"
bone than kibblefed pups do with too much calcium. It is fairly well
documented that too much calcium in kibble does cause bony
abnormalities and pano, but rawfed pups seem to have fewer problems
with those things. A rawfeeding breeder who I respect very much has
observed bowing out in her own pups when she didn't feed enough
bone, but the problem corrected itself when she increased the bone
content.

*** So, I would evaluate the bone you are feeding and make sure that
it is at minimum 10% of the diet by weight, and preferably 15-20%.
This is nature's model, which I trust far more than any scientific
study. If you are feeding this amount of bone, I think diet is not
the cause. It may be that this is just a phase that she will grow
out of. Are there other rawfed pups from her litter?

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________

12c. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Natalie -
Thanks for a sense of reason:) No, the pups, if in the wild, would not be given corn, etc.!
I'm feeding a variety of meats: chicken, lamb, fish, rabbit, and beef. I'm also giving liver and organ meats (gizzards, hearts, beef lung). Oh, and I have given some chicken necks.
I've been trying to follow the 80-10-10 ratio but have been told to increase the amount of bone and decrease the amount of calories, which I'm trying to do. I'm also trying to let them play more outside of their pen.
I learned much about puppy structure during that evaluation and even more about biases on feeding:) To be sure I will "keep my cards hidden" the next time I'm asked about what I feed my pups. I think that's sad but I feel it necessary in order to receive an unbiased evaluation.
That may be an oxymoron, is anything in dogs unbiased??:)
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

blue eyed <eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I'm not a breeder but I know a well known brand, considered premium, that has over 400 calories in 100g of dry puppy 'food'. Going by the recomendation on the pack my 10 month pup should be eating 530g per day. Thats over 2000 calories a day.

Im guessing but Im pretty sure there is not nearly that amount of calories in the amount of raw food he eats.

[She said a puppy in the wild would never be given the
quality and quantity of protein I'm feeding.]
Would it get corn, wheat, Sorghum and EC permitted anti-oxidants in the wild?

What are you feeding the pups now? How old are they?

Natalie

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. First RAW WITH BONES served today!!
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

The first raw meal was a BONELESS SKINLESS chicken breast 2 days ago -
just to see if she'd EAT raw chicken... Silly me. My 20 month 46 lb
female pit devoured it.

So, today I bought a whole 4 lb raw chicken, and quartered it myself.
I gave her the quarter that included the drumstick. WOW! She LOVED
it! She really took her time, chewing the bones and everything really
well (unlike the inhalation I typically witness with the kibble) It
actually took her about 5 minutes to eat (instead of 30 seconds).

Raw feeding is just so LOGICAL..

I hope I'm not speaking too soon, but I THINK WE'VE SEEN THE LIGHT!!

Thanks everybody!!

Alex Dewey

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feed Pets Raw Food

Sunday, September 30, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12098

0 Comments:

About Me

Previous Posts