[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12113

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Feeding Toy breeds
From: Carol Dunster
1b. Re: Feeding Toy breeds
From: Andrea

2a. Re: Tripe/Organs Questions
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: Tripe/Organs Questions
From: katkellm
2c. Re: Tripe/Organs Questions
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: They have NO idea!
From: tottime47

4a. Re: Is my pup too small?
From: katkellm
4b. Re: Is my pup too small?
From: Andrea

5. Re: Diabetic Diet~More Info
From: DJagodzinski21@aol.com

6a. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Gail Edmond
6b. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Gail Edmond
6c. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: tottime47
6d. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com

7a. Fairly new to raw feeding
From: Patrick & Lorene Nolan
7b. Re: Fairly new to raw feeding
From: Tina Berry

8a. Re: Is there a site that ships whole frozen rabbits and the like?
From: Shannon Hully

9a. Re: picking out bones
From: Andrea
9b. Re: picking out bones
From: Tina Berry
9c. Re: picking out bones
From: carnesbill

10a. Help! Time for the vet?
From: Mia-Shay Emery
10b. Re: Help! Time for the vet?
From: costrowski75
10c. Re: Help! Time for the vet?
From: Tina Berry
10d. Re: Help! Time for the vet?
From: Tina Berry

11a. Re: More feeding amount, types, NEWBIE questions: Giant & small bree
From: tottime47

12a. Re: first day success from another scared newbie
From: Giselle

Messages
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1a. Feeding Toy breeds
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 9:49 am ((PDT))

I was wondering if feeding my Silky Terriers (ranging from 10 lbs to
13 lbs) a whole chicken neck as part of their diet would be
appropriate. This would be in conjunction with meaty meals, I wouldn't
expect that to provide the meat in their meals. Last year I was giving
them half chicken necks at times with their other meals and they
handled the process of eating them just fine - no choking or other
problems. I wasn't feeding a raw diet at the time and want to fully
switch over as soon as I can get what I need to do so. (We live 30
miles from any grocery store at all and don't shop often.)

They have also been getting organ meat (mostly liver) as supplements
and raw egg. I can see I've been giving them a bit too much liver and
have cut that back. They only rarely have any sort of digestive
troubles, I think they have cast iron stomachs. :)

I'm sure they will switch over without a qualm. Three of them are
elderly and one of them is middle aged. Anyway, I was thinking, since
they handled the chicken necks easily and I can get them in bulk
(though not very cheaply) from someone that raises them as pastured
poultry, that they might make a useful choice for some of their bone.
Any comments?
~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Feeding Toy breeds
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:23 am ((PDT))

Already eating raw liver, eggs, and necks? Shoot, you're just a skip
away from a raw diet! I wouldn't have a problem feeding necks to
polite eaters of that size. When you feed chicken parts you probably
don't need to add bone to the party, but since the little'uns may not
be up to tackling the bones of larger critters the necks might come in
handy.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Dunster <cedunster@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering if feeding my Silky Terriers (ranging from 10 lbs to
> 13 lbs) a whole chicken neck as part of their diet would be
> appropriate. This would be in conjunction with meaty meals, I
> wouldn't expect that to provide the meat in their meals.

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Tripe/Organs Questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 10:11 am ((PDT))

"ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
> How often should I be feeding tripe?
*****
As nice as it is, tripe is not a "should" food. It is useful and it
is representative of what prey animals have to offer, but it is not
mandatory. So you can feed it as often as you can afford and your
dog can comfortably process. If I have it I feed it; if I don't no
tears are shed.

> And organs?
*****
How often is determined by how much you feed. Which is determined by
how your dog digests the stuff. I suggest you use the
recommended "10% of the diet of which as much as half can be liver"
as your big picture, over all guideline and then feed amounts that do
not stress our you or your dogs. Estimating a week's worth or even a
month's worth, then feeding that much over that period of time will
get a healthy dose of organs into them and when it's gone it's gone.

Remember, heart is fed as muscle meat not an organ, so you can feed
quite lots of it if your dogs are good to go.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Tripe/Organs Questions
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 10:16 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
> Hi all,
> How often should I be feeding tripe?
> And organs?

Hi Jenny,
Tripe is not a must feed item. My dogs love it and eat it once a
week, but its ok to never feed it. As far as the organs go, its more
about the 5% organ - 5% liver ratio and making sure that you include
it in the diet than how often you feed it. Some people feed
organ/liver daily, some people feed weekly... Its all about what works
best for you and your dogs. The only qualifier i would add is that
since bowel tolerance is a consideration, i wouldn't to an all out
organ meal. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: Tripe/Organs Questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 12:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> How often should I be feeding tripe?

IMO tripe is highly over rated. Yes I know dogs love it but I have
never fed it and probably never will. I see no need for it. So the
answer to your question, as others have said, feed it when you want
to.

> And organs?

I don't have a set pattern. I usually feed organs about once or
sometimes twice a week. Just a "glob" with a regular meal. How
much is a "glob" ... just what ever looks and feels right.

> just mentally
> struggling with making sure I balance all the bits and pieces (pun
> intended) correctly.

Don't put so much effort into that. No one can tell you
what "balance" is for either humans or dogs. Feed raw meat, bones,
and organs from a variety of animals. Feed a variety of animal
parts from a variety of animals. Feed mostly meat, some bones, and
some organs. Exact numbers aren't critical. Do you so carefully
measure stuff in your diet? If not, then why go to a lot of trouble
worrying about your dog's diets?

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: They have NO idea!
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 10:11 am ((PDT))

Hahahaha, Ginny I have to agree, a diet change is in order!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
>
> Check this out, guys! It was passed on to me by the folks at
> greentripe.com, but it speaks to every issue I hold dear: diet,
> vaccines, BSL.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FavisuIY8o

> Unbelievable!
>
> ginny and Tomo
>
> All stunts performed without a net!

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Is my pup too small?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 10:13 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "barbie4527" <Birdlady746@...> wrote:
He is on
> California Natural right now. Do you have to wean them over to the
> raw food?

Hi Barb,
No weaning required. I also fed California Natural and Timberwolf and
was not happy with my dogs overall condition, especially for how much
the food was costing me. I have large dogs. so i'll let the small dog
people jump in with feeding sizes..., but i just wanted to tell you
that from my experience, you will not be sorry that you switched. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Is my pup too small?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:22 am ((PDT))

More often than not, it isn't a question of "what is small enough?"
rather than "what is too small?" Small dog people are much luckier in
that many things that I can't feed to my big dogs (chicken necks,
drumsticks, thighs) are still considered ok for a toy dog. That said,
some small dogs balk at eating something if it is as big as they are.

You could start with a chicken thigh for your pooch or you could get a
mini chicken (cornish game hen) and cut it into quarters for him.

Switching over completely is best for the dog since raw food and ki**le
digest at different rates. Feed one protein source until the pup's
digestive system is good with it (a week or two for adults, some pups
adjust really fast). Welcome to the group!

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "barbie4527" <Birdlady746@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, my name is Barb and I joined to learn about this raw feeding.
> I have always fed the "natural" dog food, but I am not real pleased
> even with that. My baby is 3 months old and is only 4 pounds. He is
> a shih tzu/poodle mix and I dont xpect him to get real big. What
> would be small enough and safe enough to start him out on? He is on
> California Natural right now. Do you have to wean them over to the
> raw food?

Messages in this topic (3)
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5. Re: Diabetic Diet~More Info
Posted by: "DJagodzinski21@aol.com" DJagodzinski21@aol.com djagodzinski21
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 10:14 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 10/3/2007 6:39:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
caz320ml@yahoo.com writes:

But with people the raw diet like this is the best thing as it will not spike
insulin, Is it food caused diabetes or type 1?

Caroline

Hi, Cuda is a 9 year old Rottie/Lab. He's pretty big #130, but he's not fat
just tall and lean. The vet has him on Vetsulin 15 units 2X a day.

Does anyone have a diabetic dog that eats raw? Could you share what they are
being fed?


~Donna~

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Gail Edmond" windybond1@yahoo.co.uk windybond1
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 10:16 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Put beef down i got from the butchers, untouched so i will take it up and try in a couple of hours. Then again in the morning and wont offer anything else.

Thanks for advice

Gail

Messages in this topic (20)
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6b. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Gail Edmond" windybond1@yahoo.co.uk windybond1
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:23 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Thanks for the reply, actually i meant chicken breasts with the bone attached not wings sorry. I will read up your file you sent thanks again

Gail

Messages in this topic (20)
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6c. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:24 am ((PDT))

Hi Gail,

Sometimes the dogs don't realize it's real food.
Some good ways of getting them going is to slice small ribboned areas
into the meat so they can get a gripe on it. You could also cut off a
couple of bites for them first and offer that. Some sear it quickly on
the outside to warm it up and others put it in a zip lock bag and warm
in water.
You could also try smearing some cheese down into slits in the meat.

Hope this helps some and good luck!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Gail Edmond <windybond1@...> wrote:

> Put beef down i got from the butchers, untouched so i will take it up
and try in a couple of hours. Then again in the morning and wont offer
anything else.
>
> Thanks for advice
>
> Gail
>

Messages in this topic (20)
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6d. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com" MustBLuvSpaniels@aol.com mustbluvspaniels
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:58 am ((PDT))

my dog is raw feed, and ifs having a huge bout of yeast. I am at a loss for
what I can do to help him. He is licking chewing and crusty in the normal
areas, ears, feet armpits and inside his back legs. I need suggestions to
help clear him up. Is Micro Teck shampoo a good idea? what else can I do? Lisa

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (20)
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7a. Fairly new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Patrick & Lorene Nolan" pnolan@twmi.rr.com pnolan3333
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:21 am ((PDT))

Hello, we are new to the raw feeding and we were hoping for some
suggestions on what to feed, how much and maybe some recipes. We have
2 dogs, Lab/Greyhound mix and a retired racing Greyhound. Lab is
approx. 85 lbs and the Greyhound is approx. 70 lbs.

Thank you,
Patrick, Lorene, Angel & Ray

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Fairly new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:58 am ((PDT))

"We have 2 dogs, Lab/Greyhound mix and a retired racing Greyhound. Lab is
approx. 85 lbs and the Greyhound is approx. 70 lbs."

I feed my 85 lber's a half a 5lb chicken daily; we recently switched back to
wild game now that it is hunting season, so I feed one turkey leg (1/2 lb)
and 1.5 lbs of venison.

Depends on the dog and how much to feed. You can start out with 2-3% of
adult weight and start with one protein like chicken for a few weeks, then
gradually introduce other meat sources. Organs are rich so only feed in
small quantities to avoid the runs and farts ;-)

We feed whole chickens so they each get a small chicken liver daily. Now
that I'm feeding wild game, they will get a piece of liver once a week or
so. Mine all get one raw egg daily with fish oil for shedding.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Is there a site that ships whole frozen rabbits and the like?
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:23 am ((PDT))

Taylor Pond Farms is quite good as well.

http://www.taylorpondfarms.com/

Messages in this topic (5)
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9a. Re: picking out bones
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:24 am ((PDT))

When she picks out the bones do you offer the meat pile at the next
meal? If she's been eating chicken a la chicken for six months she
might just be sick of it, time to move on to pork? Aside from being
important in a raw diet, variety is the spice of life, you know.

Also, you might try feeding the chicken partially frozen, that makes it
harder to pick out the bones.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 16month old dane who suddenly seems to have changed her
eating habits. She normally eats what I give her no hesitations. One
morning she ate a whole chicken about 4 lbs that evening she ate very
little just nibbled.That was Saturday morning. She still is just
picking at her food. She has been eating the same whole chicken this
whole time. What is weird is she very carefully picks out the bones and
leaves the meat is a few chunks on the floor.

Messages in this topic (4)
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9b. Re: picking out bones
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:59 am ((PDT))

"One morning she ate a whole chicken about 4 lbs that evening she ate very
little just nibbled.That was Saturday morning."

So she ate 4 lbs in one meal? Maybe she's just full. If mine eat 4-5 lbs
one meal, they get very little the next day or two. Depends on the dog.
Mine average eating 1.5 - 2.5 lbs daily.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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9c. Re: picking out bones
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:59 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...>
wrote:
>
> What is weird is she very carefully picks out the bones and
> leaves the meat is a few chunks on the floor.

Are you saying that she eats bones but won't eat meat? Thats
weird. I have never heard of that. If I were you, I'd pick up the
meat and put it in the fridge. When the bones run out, feed the
meat only. You could also feed her some other meat only meals if
you are concerned.

According to the 80/10/10 ratio, I probly feed more bone then I
should anyway.

I never spent one second worrying about 80/10/10. I feed my dogs
and don't give it a thought. My dog's diets are probably not even
close to it and I don't care. :) :) :)

> So why is she just eating the bones

I don't have a clue on that one. I have heard of dogs eating only
the meat and leaving bones but never the other way around.

> and should I try to feed her more bones?

I would continue feeding her normally and save the meat then hit her
with a meat only meal or two after the bones are gone. If she
doesn't eat the meat only, put it back up for next meal and continue
feeding it until she eats it.

> I am a little concerned because she has lost a little weigth and
> I work realy hard to keep weight on her.

I wouldn't worry too much about weight right now until she gets
through this little phase she is going through.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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10a. Help! Time for the vet?
Posted by: "Mia-Shay Emery" briarbaby_04@yahoo.com briarbaby_04
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:25 am ((PDT))

Hello,
Something is up with Zach. He was doing so well and seemed so much happier, but yesterday he was weak, stiff and a bit wobbly in the back end, and today he's not eating. Up until this morning he didn't seem to care that he was wobbly and was in good spirits but today he's pouty and down. He's not bloated or straining to go poop and I so hate taking him to the vet. Even if he's just got a flea the vets solution is always drastic like steriods!
Any advice?
Mia

---------------------------------
Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: Help! Time for the vet?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:33 am ((PDT))

Mia-Shay Emery <briarbaby_04@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Something is up with Zach. He was doing so well and seemed so
much happier, but yesterday he was weak, stiff and a bit wobbly in
the back end, and today he's not eating. Up until this morning he
didn't seem to care that he was wobbly and was in good spirits but
today he's pouty and down. He's not bloated or straining to go poop
and I so hate taking him to the vet. Even if he's just got a flea the
vets solution is always drastic like steriods!
> Any advice?
*****
Weak, stiff, wobbly, pouty, depressed and without appetite sounds
like vet time to me.

Since YOU know and I know and even the vet knows that steroids cure
nothing, should the vet recommend steroids remind him steroids don't
fool you any more and that you'll pass, thanks very much.

You do not have to accept the meds the vet prescribes nor even the
vet's diagnosis. You are allowed to give yourself time to assess the
situation. But IMO it's time to address it.

Please let us know what you find out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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10c. Re: Help! Time for the vet?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:58 am ((PDT))

"He was doing so well and seemed so much happier, but yesterday he was weak,
stiff and a bit wobbly in the back end"

Any changes recently as far as diet and/or medication etc.? How old is
Zach? How long has he been on raw?
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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10d. Re: Help! Time for the vet?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:58 am ((PDT))

"You do not have to accept the meds the vet prescribes nor even the vet's
diagnosis. You are allowed to give yourself time to assess the situation.
But IMO it's time to address it. "

And IMO I would get more than one opinion, 2-3 depending on what the first
one says.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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11a. Re: More feeding amount, types, NEWBIE questions: Giant & small bree
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:59 am ((PDT))

Hi Trina,

Sounds like you are doing a really good job with them!

I have smaller dogs (10 to 12 lbs) so hope some of this helps...

On the little ones. You said one has white poo? Is the color white or
is it from the bone? When you feed chicken the poo is a light yellow
color.
If it's too much bone, just give meat for every other meal and see if
that helps.
On the one that's on a diet, try taking the skin and little fat globs
off her chicken, that helps calorie wise. Don't try getting her to
lose to fast as that can sometimes make their blood sugar mess up.

I would keep them on the chicken till they get the poos straighten
out. I kept mine on chicken for about 6 weeks, lol. In the big
picture it won't hurt them. Overfeeding and treats can also mess up
those poos, especially with the little ones.

I feed mine chicken thighs and legs. I will let them eat about half
of the leg or thigh and then take it up and give the rest at the next
meal. If one is a chow hound (one of mine is) I cut some meat off the
leg or thigh and give one meal of meat/bone/skin and one meal of
meat/skin only.

Out of curosity once I did debone a thigh and without the bone or
skin it weighed in at around 4ozs, which is what mine are supposed to
be eating a day.

Hope this helps you some, but it really sounds like you've
got it already!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> It's been almost a week now. i am feeding just chicken.
> I need help.
> Do I feed chicken for another few weeks? I think the answer is yes.

> But how about the Lhasas, I'm afraid I am overfeeding them with
> legs/thighs. I have 2 @ 20 - 22 pounds (one is on a diet to lose
about 8
> more pounds). The other is about 10 pounds. I feed twice daily so
what to
> feed if not the wing.....I'm just a bit frazzled on the what & how
much
> still.

> Trina

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. Re: first day success from another scared newbie
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 12:12 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Caroline!
It sounds like you, Bonnie & Londo have gotten off to a
great start!

Chicken feets are great fun for dogs, and full of glucosamine, which
is terrific for joints 'n bone growth, maintenance and repair.

I think you'll see some lovely improvements in the appearance and
health of your dogs in the next several months.

BTW, dogs don't often use their front incisors for eating, often just
for grabbing, or nibbling, so they can work the part back to one side
or the other and let those strong shearing teeth take over.
Here's a couple links to interesting (to me!) pics of wolf and dog teeth;
dog - this has a great explanation of what each type of tooth is for,
and how the dog uses it, despite their use of coyote skulls for
comparisons.
http://www.ashgi.org/articles/teeth_bite_me.htm
http://tinyurl.com/ynspmu

wolf
http://www.naturalworlds.org/thylacine/skull/dentition_comparison.htm
http://tinyurl.com/283299

dog
http://www.vomhausjissa.com/images/standard/dentition.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/22zn9b

Keep on truckin'!
TC
Giselle

> Hi all
> I have been reading as much as I could and feeding my 2 boxers
both with health issues minced tripe until I could source proper raw.
>
> Well this morning, Wednesday is a late start for us so we decided
to do it today.
<snip>
> I just wanted to post this to hopefully reassure those in the same
boat I was in.
>
> Hugs
> Caroline, Bonnie and Londo

Messages in this topic (18)
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