[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12117

There are 11 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Question about feeding RMB
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Question about feeding RMB
From: Giselle

2.1. Re: yeast/skin issues (was raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Laurie Swanson

3a. Re: veggies/raw meat only
From: Laurie Swanson

4a. Re: Thanks for the advice... raw on a budget?
From: Giselle

5a. Re: first day success and chicken feet
From: caroline gebbie

6a. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
From: Chuck and Debbie

7. Some thoughts/questions
From: wolfwood53

8. Pork neck whole?
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

9.1. Newbie questions
From: Christine

10. picking out bone
From: Felicia Kost

Messages
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1a. Re: Question about feeding RMB
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:58 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie Bowers <sfbowers@...>
wrote:
>
> I feel really stupid asking this, but how do you
> know how much bone to give? If I'm feeding a RMB, how do
> I determine
> how much is meat and how much bone?

Don't feel bad, I suspect very few here know how to either. I don't
think its very important. You won't be able to tell the difference
in the health of your dog whether you feed him 5% bone or 30% bone.
Feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals and
everything will balance out close enough.

If your dogs poops white dry powdery poop, assume you are feeding
too much bone. Other than that, don't be too concerned about it.
Don't overthink his diet anymore than you do your own.

If you feel you just have to know, go to

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ for your answers. In
the search criteria use the word "raw" ... for example "raw fish"
or "raw chicken" or "raw beef" etc.

> Does the meat on the RMB count
> towards the muscle meat?

If you feel the necessity to count, yes.

> I'm sorry if I'm confusing anyone, but I
> have a tendency to overthink things and make them
> more complicated
> than they have to be.

Heh heh, no kidding. :) :) :)

> I just want to make sure that over time
> Medina's diet is balanced.

Don't worry, it will be as balanced as it needs to be. "Balance" is
kind of an artificial term that means practically nothing in the
world of nutrition anyway.

Relax, its MUCH easier than you are making it out to be. Go buy
some chicken backs, or quarters or half chickens or whole chickens
and begin feeding. You will be chuckling at yourself a month from
now. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Question about feeding RMB
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:11 am ((PDT))

Hi, Stephanie!
It much more helpful if you stop using the term and
thinking about RMBs.

Think ANIMAL PARTS. Or whole prey animals.

Each animal has the perfect amount of bone. If you feed small whole
prey, of an appropriate size for your dog, like rabbits, chickens or
even turkeys, then whatever animal you feed him will be the right
amount of bone.

If you feed 'FrankenPrey', that is, an approximation of whole prey by
feeding a variety of parts from larger animals, such as pigs, cattle,
lamb, deer, goats, etc., then you need to feed more boneless meals
than ones with bones. And remember, the bones have to be entirely
EDIBLE to be counted, like chicken or rabbit bones. Beef rib bones,
for instance, you would take up and throw away once the dog was done
'flossing', and not count as bone in the diet.

Look at it this way;
imagine 4 - 4 oz raw frozen hamburger patties, like you
would buy in the freezer section of a supermarket. Thats a pound.
Imagine cutting one of them into 8 wedges, like a pie. Three of those
wedges is a little smaller than 1.6 oz, which is 10% of a pound. So,
for every pound of food your dog eats, 1.6 oz of that would be bone.
Three of those wedges would also be about (10%) organ, but only one
and a half of the three would be liver (5%).

So, you have 3 whole burgers and 2-1/8 wedges of a burger to represent
the 80% meatymeat.
You have 3-1/8 wedges of burger to represent the 10% edible bone.
You also have 3-1/8 burger wedges to represent the 5% liver and 5%
'other' organs.
Does that help at all?

If you need to measure and weigh, you can use Google calculator to figure
the amounts to feed each dog according to their weight and the
different percentages.
http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en

If your Basset is at his IDEAL body weight, use the 53 lbs to figure
the amount to feed him daily. If not, use his ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
body weight. I'll round off to 55 lbs.

Start with 2%;
2% of 55 lbs = (498.951607 grams) / (28.34952 grams) = 17.6000019 oz
or about 1 lb 1.6oz daily

3% of 55 lbs = (748.427411 grams) / (28.34952 grams) = 26.4000029 oz
or about 1 lb 10.4 oz daily

You don't need to feed bone every day, although for new-to-raw dogs it
often helps them avoid loose poops in the very beginning. Same with
organs, you can hold off on organs for several weeks, and introduce
them slowly. It will all "Balance Over Time."
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> So, I'm fixing to start my 53 lbs. basset hound on a raw diet, but
> I'm a little confused about feeding RMBs. I'm planning on feeding her
> roughly 80/10/10. I feel really stupid asking this, but how do you
> know how much bone to give? If I'm feeding a RMB, how do I determine
> how much is meat and how much bone? Does the meat on the RMB count
> towards the muscle meat? I'm sorry if I'm confusing anyone, but I
> have a tendency to over think things and make them more complicated
> than they have to be. I just want to make sure that over time
> Medina's diet is balanced.
>
> Thanks,
> Stephanie Bowers

Messages in this topic (3)
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2.1. Re: yeast/skin issues (was raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:58 pm ((PDT))

If you are feeding any soy, grains, starches, or veggies, I would try
removing them for awhile. Also if you're feeding any enhanced meats,
try eliminating them.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, MustBLuvSpaniels@... wrote:
>
> my dog is raw feed, and ifs having a huge bout of yeast.

Messages in this topic (33)
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3a. Re: veggies/raw meat only
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:58 pm ((PDT))

Well, anything that is difficult to digest, like plant
matter/starchy/sugary things for dogs, will tax the system to some
degree and have to be eliminated. It will sometimes come out through
the skin in irritating ways or cause other health issues.

If you look into the carnivore/omnivore thing more, or dog anatomy
and physiology, I think you'll get more scientific info to back you
up, such as dogs not having much of the digestive enzymes to digest
plants, having the teeth for meat and not to chew up plants (and
therefore requiring veggies to be pureed for them not to just come
out whole in the poop, which also indicates they aren't designed for
them), etc.

If you haven't checked out this site, do:

http://rawfed.com/myths/

It's hard to say no veggies to someone who might not be open to a raw
diet w/o veggies, but maybe you can say it can cause these issues and
encourage them to watch out for them in the future if they decide to
feed veggies. And refer them to more info (like this list and the
rawfeeding myths site). They might need to do veggies as a
transitory step, but hopefully as they learn more, they will ditch
them.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, skylinefay@... wrote:
>> So, do you think that veggies cause more allergies in dogs?

Messages in this topic (14)
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4a. Re: Thanks for the advice... raw on a budget?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:21 am ((PDT))

Hi!
You forgot to tell us your name.

Have you seen Lis' List?
Its a great compilation of ways to find free or cheap meat;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618
Post #139618

You can use your local chapters of; http://sfbay.craigslist.org/

http://www.freecycle.org/

to find free or cheap freezers to keep the meat you find in, too.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Thank you for the advice... keep it coming. I just moved to a new town
> and am going to seek out a good butcher. Also going to add some
> different protein sources. They do get organ meat occasionally, but
> probably not often enough. My biggest concern is trying to feed a good
> healthful raw diet without breaking the bank. Any advice on how to
> feed raw on a budget?
>
> Thanks!

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: first day success and chicken feet
Posted by: "caroline gebbie" caz320ml@yahoo.com caz320ml
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 4:20 am ((PDT))

Thanks
Another easy morning, Londo still a bit slow but he is anyway LOL

He seemed to be trying to swallow the foot again, once he got down to that level, so i took it off him.
Am I being over cautious?
He could do with the natural glucosomaine as he is currently supplemented he has a narrowing of his spine and his back end is very under developed.

Thanks
Caroline, Londo and Bonnie the chicken queen

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote:

Chicken feets are great fun for dogs, and full of glucosamine, which
is terrific for joints 'n bone growth, maintenance and repair.

I

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Messages in this topic (19)
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6a. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
Posted by: "Chuck and Debbie" greyzz@sbcglobal.net morganmybud
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 4:25 am ((PDT))

HI
I am in Joplin and have three greyhounds
have been feeding RAW now for 3 yrs

debbie

----- Original Message -----
From: one_sojourner_one
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:18 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: MO - Raw feeders?

I am in springfield.

peter

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Messages in this topic (3)
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7. Some thoughts/questions
Posted by: "wolfwood53" fiona_laidlaw@hotmail.co.uk wolfwood53
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 5:06 am ((PDT))

Hello everyone. This is my first post. I have a 15 month old
Tamaskan dog (Ayasca)who I have been feeding raw since he was around 4
months (Barf - sorry, I know its a bad word). Anyway, to cut a long
story short, I have in the last couple of weeks given up on the veggie
part of the diet and upped the amount of meat to bone ratio. I have
also stopped giving him his supplements (Vit C, B complex, Yeast, Kelp
and Cod Liver Oil) as I think he shouldnt need these if the diet is
adequate. However, I would be guided on this be anyone who has long-
term experience of raw feeding.

However, I am a littly uneasy about a couple of things. Firstly, in
the wild, they would eat fur, eyeballs, brains, etc. Might these type
of things not contain something important that they will not get by
eating just meat and bone alone?

I also really struggle to get him to eat liver. He would much rather
roll in it! I have tried mixing it with minced meat, freezing it and
searing it. He may, from the mixing and freezing, have eaten a very
small amount, but would not eat the seared piece (although initially
seemed more interested). He will not eat any other organ meat either.
What is the consequence for the dog if not consuming liver/organ meat?

As I live in the UK (Scotland) some of the meats you talk about are
not readily available, and also since joining the EU the country has
gone health and safety mad. This means that it is really difficult to
get things like heads etc. (My mum used to make sheeps head broth,
always a delight to come home and have a severed head sitting on the
draining board!!). So basically he gets what we can afford eg chicken
quarters, pork ribs, ox-tail, lamb chops, pork chops, etc. Probably
not enough meat by your ratios? I am in the process of (hopefully)
acquiring some intact (fur on) rabbits from someone. He also has the
odd mouse when he catches one.

Probably should say the Tamaskan is a rare breed - mix of Siberian
Husky/Malamute/GSD, so Ayasca would probably be classed as a large dog.

Any comments/advice would be gratefully received.

Thanks

Fiona and Ayasca

Messages in this topic (1)
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8. Pork neck whole?
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 5:08 am ((PDT))

I just found out I can get pork necks whole from the local market. But I
think I read something this week on the list about NOT feeding neck bones??

This is for a 25-lb cocker. He does chicken necks fine. The only problem
I've had with him is with boneless meat. He can't tear and won't touch it, so
he's tried to kind of chew it down and then gulp it whole and almost choked
twice. I tried larger cuts and it's the same so I cut the soft meat/organs
into reasonably sized pieces.

Please advise regarding those pork necks.

Carol

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (1)
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9.1. Newbie questions
Posted by: "Christine" rogers.christine@comcast.net jollyroger6913
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 6:12 am ((PDT))

Hello everyone! My name is Christine and I have just begun feeding my
boxer girls raw. I switched them over due to HUGE problems
w/allergies. The switch was done 3 days ago(I'm probably just
worrying too much) and they have had no BM's in that time, other than
a very small pellet size this morning. Is this a normal reaction when
switching from k^**%e to raw? The girls are 75 lbs and 70 lbs, 2 y/o
and, other than allergies, healthy. I started them cold turkey,
after a 18 hr fast, on chicken leg quarters. They are eating approx
1.5 - 2lbs/ day. They seem to gulp large sections, but only after
crunching thru the bones and trying to tear off bits. I don't know
how successful they are at tearing off smaller bits, but they do not
seem to have any issues with gagging or swallowing. Does this sound
appropriate, or should I be concerned??

Thank you in advance for any advice

Christine

Messages in this topic (38)
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10. picking out bone
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 6:12 am ((PDT))

Thanks to all who responded. I think I try the frozen boneless meat idea! No luck with her eating just the thawed meat, still trying to pick out nonexistient bone fragments. If frozen meat doesn't work I might just move on to pork (the favorite). Not spayed or bred by the way. Thanks again Felicia

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