Feed Pets Raw Food: Sep 29, 2007

Saturday, September 29, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12095

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
From: tottime47
1b. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
From: matrimentor
1c. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
From: costrowski75

2a. Itchy Rescue GSD Pup
From: grnegrl
2b. Re: Itchy Rescue GSD Pup
From: ginny wilken

3a. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
From: Stephanie Sorensen
3b. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
From: Denise Strother
3c. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
From: Giselle

4a. Re: New member - probably silly question
From: Giselle
4b. New member question
From: cr008k
4c. Re: New member question
From: costrowski75

5a. Rescues
From: Renate
5b. Re: Rescues
From: Denise Strother
5c. Re: Rescues
From: Maggie Smith
5d. Re: Rescues
From: T Smith
5e. Re: Rescues
From: Giselle

6a. Re: Dog with Eating Disorder
From: annemariekruit

7a. ADMIN/Re: ONE (SUCCESSFUL, I THINK) WEEK OF RAW
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: feeding turkey
From: girlndocs
8b. Re: feeding turkey
From: Kevin Brown

9a. Constipation? Bone Blockage?
From: Kathie Middlemiss
9b. Re: Constipation? Bone Blockage?
From: Denise Strother

10a. Re: Best-in-Show line up 50% raw
From: Giselle

11. Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: aqualitybeagles

12a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: Denise Strother

Messages
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1a. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:38 pm ((PDT))

Wow! Lucky you!

I think I'd get some gloves on and cut it up first into size and then
wash them or at least check to make sure there isn't anything harmful
like wire, etc. in there. I would imagine a young sheep would not be
eating anything dangerous, but it's always wise to error on the side of
caution.

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "matrimentor" <matrimentor@...>
wrote:
>
> A farmer friend just gave me a whole sheep stomach from a young sheep
> that had just been slaughtered. Can somebody quickly give me tips on
> what to do with it now?
>
> do I clean it out first, or just segment it and offer it to my guy in
> appropriate sized pieces?
>
> TIA,
> Jacki
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
Posted by: "matrimentor" matrimentor@yahoo.com matrimentor
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:55 pm ((PDT))

Well, I ended up dumping it into the kitchen sink, cutting it open,
then putting all of the stomach contents into the big bucket I hauled
it home in. All beautiful green grass, which went to my chickens.
Then I washed the tripe well and gave a big chunk to our Chester, who
gulped it down with gusto and them promptly threw it all up again.
Sigh.

Now I've cut the rest of it into smaller chunks to offer to him again
later. Maybe he has to sneak up on larger portions.

It's lovely, but now I understand what people mean when they say it's
stinky! I should have read your post first about wearing gloves.
I'm not squeamish about stuff like that, so I just dug in with my
bare hands. Now I'm having trouble getting the tripe smell off of
them ;-)

jacki

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
> Wow! Lucky you!
>
> I think I'd get some gloves on and cut it up first into size and
then
> wash them or at least check to make sure there isn't anything
harmful
> like wire, etc. in there. I would imagine a young sheep would not
be
> eating anything dangerous, but it's always wise to error on the
side of
> caution.
>
> Carol, Charkee & Moli
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "matrimentor" <matrimentor@>
> wrote:
> >
> > A farmer friend just gave me a whole sheep stomach from a young
sheep
> > that had just been slaughtered. Can somebody quickly give me
tips on
> > what to do with it now?
> >
> > do I clean it out first, or just segment it and offer it to my
guy in
> > appropriate sized pieces?
> >
> > TIA,
> > Jacki
> >
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: Raw Tripe Score!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:09 pm ((PDT))

"tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:

> I think I'd get some gloves on and cut it up first into size and then
> wash them or at least check to make sure there isn't anything harmful
> like wire, etc. in there. I would imagine a young sheep would not be
> eating anything dangerous, but it's always wise to error on the side
of
> caution.
*****
A while ago I got a bucket of goat guts and while it may have been a
small goat and the young sheep in question may have been a big young
sheep, there wasn't that much stomach to deal with. It is not a cow
production at all. I heaved the bucket contents over the fence and let
my three retrievers eat of it and everything disappeared promptly
except for the stomach contents, which was picked at but not devoured.
The stomach tissue itself was nibbled away from the ddigesta.

I suspect there will be little processing required with a young lamb's
stomach.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Itchy Rescue GSD Pup
Posted by: "grnegrl" grnegrl@yahoo.com grnegrl
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:38 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I'm new to the group but not to raw feeding as I've beeb practicing
it with both dogs and cats for over 20 years.
I rescued a 3 month old GSD pup two weeks ago. By the time I got him,
he'd been in a cage since 5 weeks of age, was shot full of vaccines
over two months time, wormed, given a cocciastat on 3 differnt
occasions and fed Precise puppy kibble.
The hair on his face had fallen out (with no itching at all) and he
had an upper respiratory infection. All three skin scrapings were
negative for mange and he was on Clavamox for 3 weeks.
Since I brought him home, he's been switched to raw, which he took to
like a champ. Great appetite, no stool propblems, active and very
payful.
Here's where I'm confused. He now has started itching. Not anywhere
near the point of hurting himself, just alot of chewing and
scratching. The hair is just about completely grown back in on his
face and the hair loss on his tail has stopped and is coming in
nicely.
I'm thinking that the itching is just his little body detoxing....are
any of you familiar with something like this?
Thanks in advance and it's good to meet you all!

Ruth

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Itchy Rescue GSD Pup
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:50 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 29, 2007, at 5:34 PM, grnegrl wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm new to the group but not to raw feeding as I've beeb practicing
> it with both dogs and cats for over 20 years.
> I rescued a 3 month old GSD pup two weeks ago. By the time I got him,
> he'd been in a cage since 5 weeks of age, was shot full of vaccines
> over two months time, wormed, given a cocciastat on 3 differnt
> occasions and fed Precise puppy kibble.
> The hair on his face had fallen out (with no itching at all) and he
> had an upper respiratory infection. All three skin scrapings were
> negative for mange and he was on Clavamox for 3 weeks.
> Since I brought him home, he's been switched to raw, which he took to
> like a champ. Great appetite, no stool propblems, active and very
> payful.
> Here's where I'm confused. He now has started itching. Not anywhere
> near the point of hurting himself, just alot of chewing and
> scratching. The hair is just about completely grown back in on his
> face and the hair loss on his tail has stopped and is coming in
> nicely.
> I'm thinking that the itching is just his little body detoxing....are
> any of you familiar with something like this?
> Thanks in advance and it's good to meet you all!
>
> Ruth

I'd say he has the beginnings of systemic chronic disease from all
the insults from drugs and vaccines. Further suppression of skin
issues would lead to more serious disorders. I'd advise only two
courses of action: one would be to simply feed raw and do nothing
other than a mild palliative like lavender water to ease bad bouts of
itching. He will become as good as he can in a couple of months, and
then you can see where you stand. The second course of action would
be to start homeopathic treatment for him now, before things get
complicated.

You might wish to take this discussion to Rawchat if you'd like to
hear more.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
Posted by: "Stephanie Sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:49 pm ((PDT))

Hey Laura,

You could possibly find a co-op in your area. I know there are some places that ship all over the place (www.prey4pets.com is one of them). If you invest in a freezer and buy in bulk, you can save money.

You can also hit what is on sale at the whole foods, or ask them what they do with the meat they don't sell. If they're just going to throw it out, maybe they'll either give it to you, or simply discount it more beforehand. They may have a policy against this though; I don't know.

I know there are HUGE elk in New Mexico. Hit up the processing places - ask them if you can have the leftovers (heads, guts, feet, etc). Also ask if you can buy what people don't come and pick up. A lot of times they'll do that for you too. If you have hunter friends, offer to split the cost of processing a kill with them in exchange for some good hunks of meaty bone. An elk can go a long way.

I hope that at least gets you started with thinking outside the box. Sometimes, you have to get creative and just start talking to people. You will eventually build your list of sources, and then it won't be a problem for you. :)

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

designlmc <designlmc@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi all,

I do not have a problem with the theory & philosophy of prey model diets
for dogs. However, living in Northern New Mexico, I have limited access
- no butchers to speak of, only a SuperSave Discount Foods, Albertsons,
and a local Whole Foods-type market.

My dilemma is this: I do not shop chain supermarkets as I do not want to
support agribusiness and hormone, antibiotic-laden meats. Conversely, I
cannot afford to buy extraordinarily priced free range meats at our
health food market.

Anyone else face this dilemma? I don't have problems handling meat (I
was a meat eater for many years). How do you resolve this ethical
situation?

Many thanks,
Laura

---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:52 pm ((PDT))

Laura,
Check this article out and then come back and tell me how big of an
ethical situation feeding raw is. Denise
www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/petfood1.html

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "designlmc" <designlmc@> wrote:
Hi all,
My dilemma is this: I do not shop chain supermarkets as I do not want
to support agribusiness and hormone, antibiotic-laden meats. I don't
have problems handling meat (I was a meat eater for many years). How
do you resolve this ethical situation?
Many thanks,
Laura

Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Laura!
If you don't shop chain supermarkets in order not to support
agribusinesses, then you do not need to be buying Doom Nuggets from
the multibillion dollar pet food corps, either. Most of them are owned
by corps that produce people food, now, too. They all get their meat
from the same sources, 'cept the dog food meat is usually of
substandard quality and all nutrition is is processed out of it.

Check out The Lis List to help you figure out how to find cheap or
free sources of raw whole prey or animal parts for your dog.
craigslist or FreeCycle can help you get a cheap or free freezer to
store it all in, too!
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618
Post #139618

TC and let us know when you're ready to start feeding raw. We have
tons of great advice! :)
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I do not have a problem with the theory & philosophy of prey model diets
> for dogs.
<snip>
> My dilemma is this: I do not shop chain supermarkets as I do not want to
> support agribusiness and hormone, antibiotic-laden meats. Conversely, I
> cannot afford to buy extraordinarily priced free range meats at our
> health food market.
>
> Anyone else face this dilemma? I don't have problems handling meat (I
> was a meat eater for many years). How do you resolve this ethical
> situation?
>
> Many thanks,
> Laura
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: New member - probably silly question
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Trina!
Suuure you do! ; )

Seriously, the Danes, Lhasas, and the Spaniel x too, will benefit
greatly from feeding bigger portions.

Feeding portions that are not easily chomped and swallowed, that the
dog has to figure out how to deconstruct and devote time to getting on
the outside of, is what its all about.

Your dogs will benefit in many ways from Big Food. It is emotionally
satisfying for a dog to immerse itself in a meal bigger than its own
head. It is mentally stimulating and ultimately physically tiring, to
have to figure out how to crunch tear, shear and shred a meal into
submission. It is also beneficial to the dog's teeth and gums, as
well as the dog's jaws and other parts of the dog's body, when it
needs to involve itself in its food.

Think of what a wolf has to do in order to 'put dinner on the table'.

http://www.wolfcountry.net/information/WolfHunting.html
http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/behavior/Spring2003/Bergeron/hunting.htm
http://tinyurl.com/2s7xhb
http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/player/animals/mammals-animals/dogs-wolves-and-foxes/wolves_gray_hunting.html
http://tinyurl.com/33hfk7

By being domesticated, in today's households, we have totally
eliminated that option from their lives. We 'hunt', and the food is
mostly dessicated for them, and we drop it in front of them. Most
dog's aren't even able to do the jobs we have bred them to do. The
only remnant of what a dog has left that we can allow him to do, is to
rip and tear his food up, before he swallows it.

Don't forget to look for chicken or turkey hearts to use as 'pill
pockets' - they work very well indeed.

Liver should be 3-5% of a dog's entire diet. Whether you figure that
daily, weekly or monthly is up to you. If a dog would get 1 lb of food
a day, that would be about oh, a little more than 1/2 oz. 7 lbs in a
week would be about 4 oz. In a month, you'd feed about 28 lbs, so that
would be about a pound and a half of liver. I think. I don't measure,
or weigh. I go by guess and by golly. How you feed that 5% of liver,
and 5% 'other' organs, really doesn't matter, except in how the dog
tolerates the amount that you feed. Its all 'Balance Over Time'.

Um, an idea - you can 'meatball up' the ground beef, freeze and bag
'em. They thaw very quickly, and you can just take out however many
you'll need for the day awhile ahead of time, or in the morning, if
you put them in the fridge.
TC, keep us posted on your dog's progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Thank you very much. We bought several whole chickens tonight &
about 120
> pounds of chicken legs, thighs, parts.....
> Mind you, I feed 3 Danes & one 98 lb Dal so we use at least 11
pounds a day
> for now. Eventually the other 5 dogs here will be on RAW too.
> I bought the whole chickens for my Dal so he did have to work harder
(see, I
> do listen *smile*)
> Thank you.
> We add about an ounce of liver per feeding after a week?
> I got the ground beef for their pills.
> Hopefully I got it right. We are on Day 3 & just feeding the
chicken. All
> the dogs are seeming to love the food now!
> I've joined a few groups to try to get more food and a cheaper cost &
> putting the word out to people what we are looking for (hunters, people
> cleaning out freezers, etc).....
> I think buying bags of k***le was 'easy' for everyone here in the family
> because it was bought & lasted a month but buying RAW shows initial cost
> which seems to be the first kind of 'shock' because it takes up more
room
> (freezer, fridge, etc) so it takes some getting used to for others
here. &
> it takes thinking to buy it :-)
> Trina
> http://myspace.com/coldbeach

Messages in this topic (19)
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4b. New member question
Posted by: "cr008k" crakoczy@gmail.com cr008k
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:46 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hi
Thanks to those who replied to my question about Molly's demodex- it
seems like raw is going to help her, we're going to start them really
soon and we'll see how it goes. I have one other question (as I'm
trying to stock my freezer)- I keep seeing people say they feed whole
chickens from the grocery store- is there a difference between the
"frying chicken" that you can get for under $1.00 a pound at grocery
stores and "regular" whole chicken?
Thanks!

Messages in this topic (19)
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4c. Re: New member question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT))

"cr008k" <crakoczy@...> wrote:
>I keep seeing people say they feed whole
> chickens from the grocery store- is there a difference between the
> "frying chicken" that you can get for under $1.00 a pound at grocery
> stores and "regular" whole chicken?
*****
Here in Northern California, young hens are called fryers; olden hens
are roasters. The fryers are plain old regular chickens. The roasters
(and the stewing hens) are bigger and older.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (19)
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5a. Rescues
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:51 pm ((PDT))

those of you who work in rescue - foster homes, in particular - do you feed
the fosters raw along with your dogs? I've just started with my own 3 dogs
(who are doing great now, thanks to all the wonderful people in this group).
The 2 fosters I had I'd only just got onto Canidae cause when I got them
they had big problems from a year of chicken wieners and ham sandwich spread
as the primary diet along with a few treats. But I've got a new little guy
in and those two are going to an adoptive home this week(I hope, cause it's
looking real good and they're wonderful babies) so do I just stick him on
raw? What do you tell adoptive families? Do they continue raw? I'm not
sure which is the best way to go and I've asked my rescue and their response
has been to just feed whatever I think is best.

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Rescues
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:46 pm ((PDT))

I treat my fosters as my own, so of course I feed raw. I also don't
adopt to anyone not interested in keeping the dog on raw and at least
minimal vaccs. I also don't take a dog that I'm not willing to
be "stuck" with. But then I most often take dogs with behavioral or
health problems that are fixable, but sometimes long term, because raw
can help in both these cases. Denise

those of you who work in rescue - foster homes, in particular - do you
feed the fosters raw along with your dogs?

Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: Rescues
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:43 pm ((PDT))

I wish - we are not allowed to feed fosters raw - however, I was trying
to find a way to suggest it - even as a trial program - at least for
the Danes I foster.

Maggie, Rufus and Oliver
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Strother"
<denisestrother@...> wrote:
>
> I treat my fosters as my own, so of course I feed raw. I also don't
> adopt to anyone not interested in keeping the dog on raw and at least
> minimal vaccs. I also don't take a dog that I'm not willing to
> be "stuck" with. But then I most often take dogs with behavioral or
> health problems that are fixable, but sometimes long term, because
raw
> can help in both these cases. Denise
>
> those of you who work in rescue - foster homes, in particular - do
you
> feed the fosters raw along with your dogs?
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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5d. Re: Rescues
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:44 pm ((PDT))

Is this acceptable by the parent rescue you foster for?

Second, when a subject is switched over to the rawchat list, how is this
supposed to be done? Are the same people there that are here?
Please advise but I assume this is not acceptable thread for this list &
would like to discuss it.
Trina

On 9/29/07, Denise Strother <denisestrother@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I treat my fosters as my own, so of course I feed raw. I also don't
> adopt to anyone not interested in keeping the dog on raw and at least
> minimal vaccs. I also don't take a dog that I'm not willing to
> be "stuck" with. But then I most often take dogs with behavioral or
> health problems that are fixable, but sometimes long term, because raw
> can help in both these cases. Denise
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5e. Re: Rescues
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:14 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Trina!
You have to join raw chat;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/?m=0

Then, you just start a new topic, and you might want to paste in as
much of the 'old' post from raw feeding you need to, to explain where
you are coming from.

Some of the people on raw chat are the same, but it does have fewer
members and its a much lower volume list, which allows a wider scope
for discussion topics.

Usually, as long as the topic sticks to raw feeding hows, whys,
wheres, and how tos, its AOK here.

Chris will tell us if we been bad. ^_^

We can always try to bribe her with chocolate.....
TC
Giselle

> Is this acceptable by the parent rescue you foster for?
>
> Second, when a subject is switched over to the raw chat list, how is
this
> supposed to be done? Are the same people there that are here?
> Please advise but I assume this is not acceptable thread for this list &
> would like to discuss it.
> Trina
>
> On 9/29/07, Denise Strother <denisestrother@...> wrote:
> >
> > I treat my fosters as my own, so of course I feed raw. I also don't
> > adopt to anyone not interested in keeping the dog on raw and at least
> > minimal vaccs. I also don't take a dog that I'm not willing to
> > be "stuck" with. But then I most often take dogs with behavioral or
> > health problems that are fixable, but sometimes long term, because raw
> > can help in both these cases. Denise
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: Dog with Eating Disorder
Posted by: "annemariekruit" annemariekruit@yahoo.ca annemariekruit
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:52 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Olga,
No, when she has a seizure she falls on her side, legs straight out in
front of her, her back arches and her eyes, although open, seem
sightless. Her breathing is very rapid and shallow. (I watched out of
for this, since I was afraid that she was choking.) This last about 30
seconds. When she was younger (and put through the wringer as far as
bad food, vaccines and flea control) she would sometimes have seizures:
I would say maybe one or two a year. Not enough to consider
medicating, but definitely something I kept an eye out for. It's only
since these two recent episodes that I've realized what is happening
again. Cutting the beef (that doesn't contain bone) into manageable
pieces seems to have taken care of the issue. I'll try to add a
picture of Shadow, who is 13.5 years old and Phoenix, who is 1.5 years
old, in the photos file.
Thanks for everything. Anne-Marie

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Olga" <olga.drozd@...> wrote:
>
> and she'll stumble around with her eyes
> kinda bulging out trying to decide if she should bring it up, or keep
> it down. I'm not sure if this is the behaviour you are describing as
> "seizures"?
>
> Basically what I do, is try to give her most of her food bone-in, and
> when I'm giving boneless meat I cut it into pieces that she can
> swallow. I don't give her frozen boneless meat anymore.
>
> Olga
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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7a. ADMIN/Re: ONE (SUCCESSFUL, I THINK) WEEK OF RAW
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

Please take all (ALL) treat "how-to" conversations to rawChat.
All "how do you make" and "what recipes" and "how long to you cook"
or "what's a good dehydrator" or "what do you set the over at"
questions are not about about raw food, they are about processed food.
RawChat has room for such discussions. RawChat also has an archives
quite full of previous "how to" messages. Please take advantage of it.
Chriso O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Re: feeding turkey
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi Arlene,

My dog loves turkey drumsticks :) I would rather offer her whole
turkey hindquarters, but I don't have any of those yet -- I'll get
them in a month or so when turkey season really starts, though.

Something about the shape seems to engage her and require her to chew
differently on them than on some other foods she gets, and she seems
to really enjoy that.

She eats the whole bone (she's a large Lab mix).

Kristin

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: feeding turkey
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:45 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "abeautiful3" <abeautiful3@...>
wrote:
>
> I would like to know if feeding turkey legs are a good source of meat
> and would the turkey bone splinter?
>
> Arlene
>

My 4 1/2 month old 60 pound mastiff eats turkey legs. I switched her
from chicken legs to turkey legs, because the bone requires more
breaking and chewing.

I do not make it a daily food, I use it 2 days a week as variety.

Kevin
The Jersey Shore
www.guardiansbythesea.com

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Constipation? Bone Blockage?
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:44 pm ((PDT))

I know I'm probably just paranoid here, but I think something is up with
Max.

He's had nothing but chicken quarters/half chickens for a week and then
this morning I gave him two pieces of boneless pork rib.

Tonight, he's acting like he may be constipated or something. And when
I let him out to go, I went out with him and (sorry if this is TMI) he
farted really really loudly and then sat in the 'poo position' for quite
some time. He came back up on the deck and rubbed his bum on the
surface like worm dogs do, though his stools are worm-free.

I looked at what he got out and it was a very, very small amount of
grainy looking poo with flecks of white in it that I think are bone
fragments.

He came in and went directly to his crate. He cleaned himself and
whimpered a little and then promptly went to sleep.

Worry wart that I am, I gave him about a teaspoon and a half of olive
oil hoping to grease the works.

Should I be overly concerned? Should I stop stressing? I'm having
mental images of a chicken bone being lodged in there that he can't poo
out. ::laughs:: Sorry, I'm such a dweeb.

Kathie, Mom to:
Jake Lab/something mix - 6 years/98 pounds
Max Lab - 13 weeks/30 pounds
Ruby Lab/shepherd mix - 12 weeks/20-ish pounds

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Constipation? Bone Blockage?
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:44 pm ((PDT))

I'd just wait and see what tomorrow brings as long as he doesn't seem
to be in a lot of pain or to far from whatever normal is for him. Some
dogs take a little more time to adjust than others do. This is where
you find you will really get to know your dog. Let us know how tonight
goes in the morning. You'll get better advice then. The solution will
be different if he has loose stools during the night than if he still
hasn't pooped and seems uncomfortable. Also give more info about how
poop has been prior to this. How big is he, what is he, how much does
he eat daily, any supplements, etc. Also, for future references, for
some dogs eggs, certain organs, fatty meals can also grease the wheel
and are more species appropriate.
Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Kathie Middlemiss <geekgirl717@...>
wrote:
I know I'm probably just paranoid here, but I think something is up
with Max.

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: Best-in-Show line up 50% raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:55 pm ((PDT))

Hmmm, professional breeder's or handler's "secrets" - many of them, I
bet, get some kind of lovely subsidies from the major pet food corps
for saying they feed their brand(s) or sending pups home with 'puppy
kits' with all kinds of samples and coupons!
You just have to go to one of the larger, or even smaller conformation
shows, and walk the trophy tables or vendor's row, to see their
presence - or watch the ads and banners of the sponsors on
conformation or dog sports shows on the TeeVee.

Who hasn't seen the Pedigree Breeder's commercials, with a breeder
walking through a field with adult dogs 'n puppies of a certain breed
tumbling about? Do you think they *really* feed what they're touting?
Not many of them, I'm sure. But not many of them at that level will
turn down free publicity, or free stuff for their Kennel or Specialty
Clubs to give out as trophies, or to give out to their puppy buyers,
either.

The pet food corps do it with puppy millers and professional BYB, too.
http://www.purina.com/dogs/breeders/PurinaProClub.aspx
http://www.royalcanin.us/breeders/dogclub.html
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I know most all of the handlers, owners etc....that were in the BIS
ring.
> This is not a scientific study, it is an observational study. I
don't know
> about the bloodlhound...or the golden....for example....the West coast
> dogs...because I don't see them week after week. But I see
everybody else. We all
> talk to each other you know.....it's like you go to school
together...or
> remote extended family. You go ask them....I'm sure they will tell
you. I am not
> showing this year...but I doubt it has changed from the last year.
Sarah
> Waldorf Konigsdorf Shepherds

Messages in this topic (8)
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11. Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "aqualitybeagles" aqualitybeagles@yahoo.com aqualitybeagles
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:45 pm ((PDT))

Hello I am a member of this list since around April 07. I breed and
show beagles. I am very happy with my choice to switch to a raw diet.

However, my parents just adopted a VERY young Pit Bull puppy (younger
than I would have liked, but that is beside the point and beyond my
control). She has only had wormer so far (Thank God) and has been
weaned onto crapinabag. She is mostly my mother's dog, my mother has
seen the results of my feeding a raw diet and is ALL for feeding her
new Pit Bull baby what is best for her - RAW! But, my father has this
idea that feeding her a raw diet will make her blood thirsty and mean!

Can anyone give me examples of Pit Bulls being fed a raw diet who are
not ferocious killers? Or is my father right? They are very
experienced and responsible dog owners, but they have never owned a
Pit Bull.

Is there anything different from feeding a raw diet to any other dog
breed that I should be aware of?

Thanks, Laura Peters
A-Quality Beagles, Reg'd.
Saint Stephen, SC
www.a-qualitybeagles.com

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:46 pm ((PDT))

Umm, am I to understand by that by "pushed on the forleg from behind"
you mean in the area of the knee? Denise

I do not see the legs bowing out but she pushed on the foreleg from
behind and it did give way more on my girl than on the other two boys.

Messages in this topic (15)
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________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12094

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: New member - probably silly question
From: Denise Strother

2a. Re: pigs feet and cow hooves
From: Yasuko herron

3a. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
From: Denise Strother

4a. Re: bones in poo!
From: Yasuko herron

5a. how to stop her from eating so fast
From: maradethc
5b. Re: how to stop her from eating so fast
From: Yasuko herron
5c. Re: how to stop her from eating so fast
From: Sandee Lee
5d. Re: how to stop her from eating so fast
From: Brandi Bryant
5e. Re: how to stop her from eating so fast
From: Denise Strother

6a. Re: Newbie question - Chicken bones and possibility of intestinal pe
From: Sandee Lee
6b. Re: Newbie question - Chicken bones and possibility of intestinal pe
From: Stephanie Sorensen

7a. Re: Best-in-Show line up 50% raw
From: Yasuko herron
7b. Re: Best-in-Show line up 50% raw
From: Maofryan@aol.com

8a. Re: ONE (SUCCESSFUL, I THINK) WEEK OF RAW
From: steph.sorensen

9a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
From: blue eyed

10a. Re: New member here... Need help.
From: Denise Strother

11a. Re: Hiding food? Newbie question
From: one_sojourner_one

12. feeding turkey
From: abeautiful3

13a. Re: German Shepherd Overwieght
From: kaylsraven

14a. Re: Best-in-Show line up 50% raw - Krissy
From: tottime47

15a. Re: no poop is it time to panic?
From: Andrea

16a. Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
From: designlmc
16b. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
From: tottime47

17. Raw Tripe Score!
From: matrimentor

18a. Re: another runny poo question
From: Giselle

Messages
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1a. Re: New member - probably silly question
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:54 am ((PDT))

Bigger, not smaller is the correct answer here. You are depriving your
dog of the dental benefits of raw by chopping up his food. Also
chopping means he can just gulp his food just like they do with
kibble. The extra time it takes to eat big = more satisfaction for
your dog. Just like us it takes time for the brain to recognize that
the tummy is full. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
My Dal ate the thigh & drumstick in TWO pieces ONLY because he
accidentally chewed it in half while trying to swallow it whole the
first time he ate RAW. So, now I chop in into bite sized (2 x 2 -ish)
pieces so he doesn't choke himself!

Messages in this topic (16)
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2a. Re: pigs feet and cow hooves
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:26 am ((PDT))

>Neither of these are meals and whether they are amusements for your dogis up to you and >your dog.

Hi,Howard. Go to hare today gone tomorrow site (located in PA),and put "Cow hooves" in search area. It brings up what I got last month.

It is caled hooves but it is as big as my hand and weigh 3lb or so and hoovesare attached to fur and such and it really gave my dog serious work out,and madeher deep sleep at night.

It is not meal,but recreational type but it is good.

The actual hooves looked like rubbery tire or something to me and, my dog was nibbling on it,never splinter shard and I felt comfortable. The furaround the ankle area (??) was most place my dog worked on and she ate fur and skin and some tendons. spent 2 hours on it and she ate 6oz (less than half pound).It was stinkly,but my dog was satisfied.

Good part is,it costed me around 2 dollars. I refroze the leftover and going to offer some other time.

Hooves that I am talking is not the size of chew hooves you can see at pet shops. Much bigger and heavier.

yassy

---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:28 am ((PDT))

First of all, even is your dog has had allergy test that say he is
allergic to beef there are a couple of things you need to know.
Allergy tests are notoriously inaccurate. Also, many dogs that are
allergic to beef on kibble are not allergic to beef fed raw. The
woman I work for has two Scotties that were allergic to beef and
chicken by allergy tests. They were on hypo-allergenic food and
received antigen shots. Now they are on raw and guess what? They eat
beef and chicken with not a problem in sight.

Yes, you should listen when your dog is communicating with you. That
does not mean you should always do what he is communicating to you.
People sometimes misunderstand what the dog is saying. I would no
more let my dog dictate what his/her diet should be than I would a
child. My grandkids are here this weekend. My 3yr old, intact, male
grandchild wanted gum for breakfast. Guess what? He did not eat gum
for breakfast. At lunch if he refuses whatever lunch is, then I put
it up and he can eat it when he is hungry. A lot of dogs refuse new
things just like kids do. I do rescue and feed a lot of different
dogs. If they refuse certain foods they just don't eat at that meal
and it is offered at the next meal and so on until it is eaten. If
after eating the disliked food several times it is obvious that they
don't like it, I take that into consideration. But, most of the time
after eating the disdained food a time or two, they decide it's not
so bad or even like it. The thing is the dog won't hold out forever.
If your dog doesn't like anything but chicken and won't eat organs
(especially liver) and you cave to that, that's when you end up with
an unhealthy dog. Variety is the key to your dog getting everything
it needs from rawfeeding. BTW, I am the benevolent dictator here. It
doesn't mean I don't hear what my dogs are saying, I just think I
know more about what is good for them than they do. And hopefully
that is true for all of us on this list. If your dog is smarter,
more informed and educated than you are, well I can't help you with
that. Denise

Messages in this topic (17)
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4a. Re: bones in poo!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:28 am ((PDT))

> The loose stool with the beef ribs was probably because it was new and some dogs >bodies have to adjust to new foods in the beginning

I agree,and if Beef was already got used to but still loose stool,then,you can get visible fat from back of the ribs.Sometimes,too much fat also cause loose stool.

if one saw loose stool either skin and fat off a bit and see how dog does or add more bones if dog did not eat rib bones on rib days. That may help.

And, add new thing only one at a time.

yassy

---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. how to stop her from eating so fast
Posted by: "maradethc" maradethc@yahoo.com maradethc
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:29 am ((PDT))

I have 4 dogs and one just scarfs down her food. Today it was vegie mix
with ground chicken. And other times its chicken backs. Now she has
started throwing it up and eating it again. Can anyone give me some
advice thanks
Maradeth

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: how to stop her from eating so fast
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:48 am ((PDT))

.>I have 4 dogs and one just scarfs down her food. Today ground chicken. And other times >its chicken backs.

Hi.it is easy to figure out why they eat so fast.

It is GROUND so, no need to tackle with meat at all and in a few sec,dog done eating andsince eating so fast,so,threw up andre-eat it.

Feed whole chicken cut up to your dog's portion size.

and,I am kind of wondering if you are feeding pre-made ground mix??

and for chicke back,too boney so,if you feed it anddog threw up then,it is too much bone in one sitting.Need to add more meat to the dogs meal.

and, look for archive for veggie mix. People on this list do not feed them.You find answer why.It talked quite a lot in the past.

yassy

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: how to stop her from eating so fast
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:32 pm ((PDT))

Yes...get rid of the ground foods and veggie mix and give the dogs some nice
whole food to eat. Quarter or half chicken is a good place to
begin...depending on the size of your dogs.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "maradethc" <maradethc@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (5)
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5d. Re: how to stop her from eating so fast
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

I have 4 dogs and one just scarfs down her food. Today it was vegie mix
with ground chicken. And other times its chicken backs

Hi, Maradeth, I have 4 dogs too! I have a GS puppy that scarfs her food
also, she'd chew on a chicken breast about 3 to 4 chews and then swallow it
whole!!! I asked about it to the group, and they gave me a couple of tips,
first feed whole foods! I'm giving my puppy, half a chicken, or whole pork
in shoulder roasts! For example: last night my all my dogs got this for
dinner. (after going to walmart and find some mark down of expired meat
that no one picked up) come home and my dogs got 3 pok rib tips each, they
all got turkey breasts, I cut up and whole chicken in 4 pieces, and they
also got some thinly slice pork chops (mark down at Wal mart) with the bones
cut out! And of course my puppy went after the pork chops first, swallowed
them whole - but then she had to work at the rib tips, and she also had to
work at the breats and the chicken.

Hope this kinda helps in a way.
Brandi
Bartlesville, OK

On 9/29/07, maradethc <maradethc@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Recent Activity
>
> - 109
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>
> Visit Your Group
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--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

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Messages in this topic (5)
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5e. Re: how to stop her from eating so fast
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

Dump the veggies and ground meat. The gulping is because ground
requires nothing more and many dogs will vomit just because it hits
their stomach with no warning. Eating anything after they throw it up
is no problem, saves you cleaning it up. I would check out some of
these sites to learn how to feed your dog appropriately.
www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://www.rawfeddogs.net
http://www.rawlearning.com
Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "maradethc" <maradethc@...> wrote:
>I have 4 dogs and one just scarfs down her food. Today it was vegie
mix with ground chicken. And other times its chicken backs. Now she
has started throwing it up and eating it again. Can anyone give me
some advice thanks
Maradeth

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Newbie question - Chicken bones and possibility of intestinal pe
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:36 am ((PDT))

Heidi,

No, there is no truth to that comment and I bet he can't back it up with any
facts. I'm not saying that it absolutely could not happen, but I think if
it was a common result of feeding raw, there would be far fewer than the
9648 members in this group and countless numbers of dogs successfully being
fed raw! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "hszymkowski" <hszymkowski@yahoo.com>
I've been feeding my lab raw for about 3 weeks, based entirely on what
I've read here. Breeze loves it, happily scarfs whatever I put in
front of her, and has shown no signs of any problems or distress. My
husband, who's still somewhat skeptical of raw feeding, was
"cautioned" by a biologist of the possibility of chicken bones (cooked
OR raw) causing intestinal perforation.
Any truth to that, and how do I dispel his anxiety?

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Newbie question - Chicken bones and possibility of intestinal pe
Posted by: "Stephanie Sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

Hey Heidi,

I AM a biologist - although only for about 10 years now :). And RAW bones will not splinter and are less likely to perforate the intestinal lining because they break down differently than cooked bones. I too was cautioned by a co-worker not long ago who used to be a vet tech. Said he opened up a dead dog to do an autopsy and found shredded insides due to the dog's "bone" diet. I asked if they were cooked or raw, and he didn't know.

My bet was on cooked, because all of the people on here that have been doing this for ages, as well as my own two dogs, have not had a raw bone problem yet. They can still choke, which is why they need to be supervised, but chances of intestinal perforation, while possible, are pretty small. And the digestive juices of dogs are quite potent and capable of breaking down the bone for necessary absorption of nutrients and passing of the remains.

I hope it helps to have another "biologist" that is on your side! :)

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

hszymkowski <hszymkowski@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello,
I've been feeding my lab raw for about 3 weeks, based entirely on what
I've read here. Breeze loves it, happily scarfs whatever I put in
front of her, and has shown no signs of any problems or distress. My
husband, who's still somewhat skeptical of raw feeding, was
"cautioned" by a biologist of the possibility of chicken bones (cooked
OR raw) causing intestinal perforation.
Any truth to that, and how do I dispel his anxiety?

Thank you all!
Heidi

---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. Re: Best-in-Show line up 50% raw
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:06 am ((PDT))

>I have wondered for YEARS about this

Me too! When i came to US,and watched dog show (I have never watched such show before coming here)I thought that all dogs' coats are so shiny and good muscle tones I was surprised.

I then was thinking that handlers could be doing good grooming;combing etc to make it very silky and shiny looking,because show shows how the handlers are repping before entering the ring.

but if most dogs are raw fed,it is undertandable because after switching to raw,palette's coat got shinier than before.And I see muscle tone especially in hind legs thighs.

My neighbor who has rottie chow mix (120lb) thinks I am pretty good job grooming.

Thedog is kibble fed but occasionally get veggie I heard and get some people food like corn bread (it was what the neighbor put for birds!) .She is a big good old dog(13 y.o.),but neighbor said she sheds quite a lot and when I look at coat next to palette's, definitely palette looks better in coat.Nikki's looks bit rough,no shiny.

I wish they could change nikki's diet (the old dog) but,I am not sure.

I once told them I changed diet of palette but they just answered "oh" andthat is about it and did not show any interests to hear more so,I did not say much about it after that.

But if many people heard about top dog fed raw andthe more people could show interests in it and more dogs would get healthier...

I wonder why we(people who are no show people,no breeder) would not hear about it..

If I did not read magazine thatI read first about raw feeding back in February or March,I would still be feeding kibble....

yassy

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

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Messages in this topic (7)
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7b. Re: Best-in-Show line up 50% raw
Posted by: "Maofryan@aol.com" Maofryan@aol.com waldorfsarah
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

I know most all of the handlers, owners etc....that were in the BIS ring.
This is not a scientific study, it is an observational study. I don't know
about the bloodlhound...or the golden....for example....the West coast
dogs...because I don't see them week after week. But I see everybody else. We all
talk to each other you know.....it's like you go to school together...or
remote extended family. You go ask them....I'm sure they will tell you. I am not
showing this year...but I doubt it has changed from the last year. Sarah
Waldorf Konigsdorf Shepherds

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Re: ONE (SUCCESSFUL, I THINK) WEEK OF RAW
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

> I saw raw dehydrated salmon in the pet store (no other additives or
> fillers). Would this be an appropriate treat? How about freeze
> dried chicken, beef livers, or jerky?
>
****************

I have seen many a post in the month that I have been here with people
talking about what they feed as treats, and dehydrated chicken and beef
livers frequently come up. Also taking liver and drying it in the oven
yourself and cutting it into either strips or small squares works. I
would think the dehydrated salmon would be the same.

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Puppy evaluation/admonished for feeding raw
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

I'm not a breeder but I know a well known brand, considered premium, that has over 400 calories in 100g of dry puppy 'food'. Going by the recomendation on the pack my 10 month pup should be eating 530g per day. Thats over 2000 calories a day.

Im guessing but Im pretty sure there is not nearly that amount of calories in the amount of raw food he eats.

[She said a puppy in the wild would never be given the
quality and quantity of protein I'm feeding.]
Would it get corn, wheat, Sorghum and EC permitted anti-oxidants in the wild?

What are you feeding the pups now? How old are they?

Natalie

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
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10a. Re: New member here... Need help.
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi Alex,
I have a female Pit about the same age and size as yours. I run a
dog daycare so she gets as much or more exercise. No dog chews their
food they crunch it into swallowable pieces, much like my 20 yr old
son, and swallow. Meaty bones should really be meat with bones in
it. The easiest way to start would be to get a whole chicken and cut
it into quarters. Start with one a day and see how it goes. Feed
that for a week or so, if all is well you can start adding a bit of
some other meat, like pork. If that goes well, give a pork meal and
so forth and so on. While you're doing that do your homework.

www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://www.rawfeddogs.net
http://www.rawlearning.com

Also check out the archives for this group and ask any questions you
need to, that's what the group is for. This will be one of the best
things you ever do for her. The feathers are optional. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Dewey
<alexanderdewey@...> wrote:
My name is Alex and I have a pitbull named Gigi...
I'd like to try feeding raw but I'm overwhelmed by all the
information that's out there. Can someone coach me along
considering Gigi's specifics...

20 Months old (today!)
46 pounds
Very lean, all muscle.
Runs/plays/swims at least 3 hours on most days...

SHE DOES NOT ALWAYS CHEW WHAT SHE EATS...
So, how should I get started?? Pretty much everything is easy for
me to buy. Also, simple questions - please don't make fun... Exactly
what are 'meaty bones'?
And, when I start feeding her chicken, shouldn't they still have
their feathers?
Alex Dewey

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: Hiding food? Newbie question
Posted by: "one_sojourner_one" onesojourner@gmail.com one_sojourner_one
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:49 pm ((PDT))

I had that problem, and let me tell you 3 day old chicken is bad news!

-peter

Messages in this topic (4)
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12. feeding turkey
Posted by: "abeautiful3" abeautiful3@yahoo.com abeautiful3
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:51 pm ((PDT))

I would like to know if feeding turkey legs are a good source of meat
and would the turkey bone splinter?

Arlene

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: German Shepherd Overwieght
Posted by: "kaylsraven" kaylsraven@yahoo.com kaylsraven
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:26 pm ((PDT))

Howdy. The first got through, but anyways...

I've got a GSD who will be two years old on Monday (Oct 1). My rule of
thumb was that I kept him ribbier than I kept my adult dogs to ensure
that he didn't get too heavy before his growth plates closed and,
thus, caused hip dysplasia. He still looked like a fluffy little
roly-poly puppy until he hit about four months, but you could easily
feel his ribs (not too easily! And couldn't see them under the fluffy
puppy coat). If he got more padding, I cut down his food. If he got a
little too ribby, I upped his food.

His breeder and his sire's owner saw him several times between when I
brought him home and when he was about 8 mths and I got told off
stringently about the fact that he wasn't getting enough to eat, was
too lean, would never hit his projected adult weight if I didn't start
feeding him more or mixing in kibble...I just smiled and nodded and
said okay because, at 20-21, I was much younger than them and I just
don't argue with people that much older than me. But I did come on
here and ask because he was just a lanky little guy even at 9 mths and
a year, and was thus assured that it takes GSDs a long time to fill
out, especially without the fits and starts and doughy-ness from
kibble, and not to worry about it. Now he's two, and he looks
wonderful. I need to get some current pictures.

I know I went a little further than your actual question--sorry if it
was a little too much info. If anyone remembers me from a year or so
ago (doubtful *G*) Siris's weight and lankiness was a subject of much
worrying for me--I believe completely in raw, but I also had folks
telling me he wasn't getting enough, but judging by his ribs he was,
but they said he wouldn't develop, but I didn't want to risk HD, but
they said mix in some kibble to put some weight on, but I knew that
was wrong, but...and so on and so forth. Perhaps I can help allay some
fears before they pop up. If not, well, welcome to puppy-hood. But
lean is good with younguns.

Cheers,

Sabrina 'n the gang

Messages in this topic (7)
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14a. Re: Best-in-Show line up 50% raw - Krissy
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:54 pm ((PDT))

Hi Krissy,

If they start talking about it, you probably won't be watching
the Westminster show anymore unless the beef council picks up the
bill, lol.

Since Pedigree sponsers the show, they expect and rightly so, that you
will not dis their dog food, at least publicly......

Carol, Charkee & Moli

> I hope the percentage is that high....and that they start talking
about
> it!!
>
> Krissy

Messages in this topic (7)
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15a. Re: no poop is it time to panic?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:52 pm ((PDT))

Sounds like she did poop, though, right? Depending on the size of dog you have, the poo
sounds just about right to me. Raw fed dogs poo a whole lot less than ki**le fed dogs.
Don't worry, nothing is wrong.

As far as refusing to eat anything but ground, don't let her. You're the owner and she's
the dog. Give her real food and if she doesn't eat it, maybe she'll change her mind at the
next meal. Just be firm.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Josephine Morningstar"
<josephine.morningstar@...> wrote:

> no poop for 4 days.. then very small poop..(one 3 in long fairly dark, then
> 2 in long softer much lighter color) and then i think its cause i ON
> PURPOSE gave her 1 cup cows milk.
>
> she is refusing meat with bones.. wants only ground up meat. and has no
> poop.. (but has strong appetite for ground up foot. or solid meat with no
> bone in it.. )

Messages in this topic (2)
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16a. Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
Posted by: "designlmc" designlmc@yahoo.com designlmc
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi all,

Anyone else face this dilemma? I don't have problems handling meat (I
was a meat eater for many years). How do you resolve this ethical
situation?

Many thanks,
Laura

Messages in this topic (2)
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16b. Re: Political Vegetarian comtemplating changing to "raw"
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:38 pm ((PDT))

Unless you are feeding veggies from your garden, where do you think
the Doom Nuggets are coming from?

You can bet they are from agribusiness and hormone, antibiotic-laden
meats, and worse, lol.

This has been discussed here very completely in the last couple of
months, maybe a look at past posts will help you.

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "designlmc" <designlmc@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,

> My dilemma is this: I do not shop chain supermarkets as I do not
want to
> support agribusiness and hormone, antibiotic-laden meats. I don't
have problems handling meat (I
> was a meat eater for many years). How do you resolve this ethical
> situation?
>
> Many thanks,
> Laura

Messages in this topic (2)
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17. Raw Tripe Score!
Posted by: "matrimentor" matrimentor@yahoo.com matrimentor
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:53 pm ((PDT))

A farmer friend just gave me a whole sheep stomach from a young sheep
that had just been slaughtered. Can somebody quickly give me tips on
what to do with it now?

do I clean it out first, or just segment it and offer it to my guy in
appropriate sized pieces?

TIA,
Jacki

Messages in this topic (1)
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18a. Re: another runny poo question
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:28 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Kelly!
Another thing to look at is if the chicken you are feeding
is enhanced; seasonings, flavorings added or salt solution injected.

Read the labels, even the itty bitty print.

These additives can cause digestive upset. It may not be chicken per
se that is causing him problems, but what's been added to it.

To get his 'tummy' in order, you could fast him for a day, and dose
with Slippery Elm Bark Powder, to soothe and reduce inflammation,
before resuming a normal diet;
"This is a good innocuous herb that soothes the stomach and digestive
system. If you feel you need to intervene when your dog has loose
poops or constipation, this is the way to go. SEBP is âœused to treat
diarrhea, constipation, enteritis, colitis & irritations of the
stomach. Used to soothe, protect & lubricate mucous membranes. Also,
used to relieve the discomforts of kennel cough & other types of
bronchitis.â
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in Â½ ounce meatballs,
for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with each meal. Or,
fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or two) offer
plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout the day.
Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after, gradually
increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You will often
see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of the way it
soothes the digestive system, and the dogâ™s body will do the same
sometimes even without SEBP."

You might want to print out the information in the following archived
post, and websites. It can be helpful to review and refocus your
feeding philosophy and plans, especially since you have come through
so many stages of mixed feedings. The Lis List can help you find cheap
or free sources of protein variety.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

I DON'T recommend that you limit water intake, or feed yogurt. He may
benefit from probiotics or digestive enzymes, but try these few things
first.
1) Fast for a day, offer plenty of fresh water and even low sodium
broth. Dose with Slippery Elm Bark Powder, as above.
2) Feed only UNenhanced chicken, if chicken is what you can afford
right now.
3) Trim all visible fat, and skin.
4) Feed 2-3 smaller meals a day, for a week or two. If he only eats
1/2 of a leg quarter a day, then cut some meat with gristle from it
for 2 meals and feed, then feed the part with the bone for another meal.
5) Try to source some variety - leaner meats when possible, or trimmed
if not.
6) Make very sure no one is feeding him processed treats or snacks of
any kind.

His poop may become firmer, or stay soft, or alternate, thats OK.
Boneless meals will produce soft stool. But he should not refuse to
eat unless not hungry, or have a hard abdomen. Try to determine if he
is hardening his 'tummy' in anticipation of your probing - most Schips
I know don't take to prodding kindly, but will turn over in your lap
for a chest scratch and belly rub. If he is generally himself,
drinking, playing, doing all the things he usually does through out
the day, and is only 'upset' at mealtime, he may be feeling your or
your mom's anxiety about it.

You may have to go back to 'potty training 101', if Comet has been
having accidents in the house. More frequent potty outings, less
freedom of the house, until he goes when and where he is supposed to
go again.

TC and let us know how Comet does!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

My mom's dog (Schipperke, 8 y/o, altered) has been having poop
issues.
<snip>
1. do you all think this is a variety problem, being that their main
diet is chicken?
2. how do I correct the "bloating" problem? someone suggested
probiotics/or yogurt?
I know variety is key, and we do our best.

thanks all in advance,
kelly, zeke(I'm fine mommy, wheres my chicken??) and comet, (ugh, my
tummy hurts, sorry I made a mess on the floor)

Messages in this topic (4)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12093

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Best-in-Show line up 50% raw
From: Krissy
1b. Re: Best-in-Show line up 50% raw
From: merril Woolf

2a. mixed question...
From: iumadness64
2b. Re: mixed question...
From: costrowski75

3a. Hiding food? Newbie question
From: Kathie Middlemiss
3b. Re: Hiding food? Newbie question
From: Andrea
3c. Re: Hiding food? Newbie question
From: Denise Strother

4. Raw feeding helped
From: abeautiful3

5a. Re: newbie - few questions
From: Denise Strother

6a. Re: bones in poo!
From: Denise Strother
6b. Re: bones in poo!
From: Denise Strother

7a. German Shepherd Overwieght
From: nasseralkhalifa
7b. Re: pigs feet and cow hooves
From: Howard Salob
7c. Re: pigs feet and cow hooves
From: costrowski75

8a. Newbie question - Chicken bones and possibility of intestinal perfor
From: hszymkowski
8b. Re: Newbie question - Chicken bones and possibility of intestinal pe
From: Andrea
8c. Re: Newbie question - Chicken bones and possibility of intestinal pe
From: Denise Strother

9a. ONE (SUCCESSFUL, I THINK) WEEK OF RAW
From: Kevin & Nancy McCloskey
9b. Re: ONE (SUCCESSFUL, I THINK) WEEK OF RAW
From: Denise Strother

10a. Re: another runny poo question
From: Andrea
10b. Re: another runny poo question
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
From: costrowski75

12. no poop is it time to panic?
From: Josephine Morningstar

13a. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
From: Denise Strother

14a. ADMIN/Re: new to raw with a question DEMODEX
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. Re: Best-in-Show line up 50% raw
Posted by: "Krissy" krissy@mitre.org krissyar26
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Maofryan@... wrote:
> When you see the Best In Show line-up at Westminster, I can tell
> you 50% of those dogs are eating raw....not Pedigree.

I'm guessing this isn't a statistic w/a "hard" reference.

Do other showers/breeders share this opinion - as high as 50%?

I have wondered for YEARS about this. I could not understand how the
coats, teeth, and muscle tone of those top dogs could possibly compete
w/raw fed dogs. It seems logical that the top dogs are raw fed, but we
don't hear about it.

I hope the percentage is that high....and that they start talking about
it!!

Krissy

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Best-in-Show line up 50% raw
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:53 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Krissy" <krissy@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Maofryan@ wrote:
> > When you see the Best In Show line-up at Westminster, I can tell
> > you 50% of those dogs are eating raw....not Pedigree.
>
> I'm guessing this isn't a statistic w/a "hard" reference.
>
> Do other showers/breeders share this opinion - as high as 50%?
>
> I have wondered for YEARS about this. I could not understand how the
> coats, teeth, and muscle tone of those top dogs could possibly compete
> w/raw fed dogs. It seems logical that the top dogs are raw fed, but we
> don't hear about it.
>
> I hope the percentage is that high....and that they start talking about
> it!!
>
> Krissy

I know it could be true of working sighthounds. I have never done an official opinion poll
on raw fed working sighthounds, but if you attend as many events as most of us do, you
soon learn that a high number of the dogs are raw fed. It's also easy to pick out the
kibble fed dogs for the most part.

People who depend on their dogs performance will soon gravitate towards raw eventually.
Dogs perform well on it and look good as well.

Merril

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. mixed question...
Posted by: "iumadness64" iumadness64@yahoo.com iumadness64
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:44 am ((PDT))

First let me say I really appreciate the information I get from all of
you. This forum has been a Godsend. I got my girl from the shelter
and have to get her spayed soon. Anything special I need to know about
her feeding habit before and/or after the surgery?

Stats:
Golden Retreiver/Yellow Lab mix
approx 9mo old
approx 45lbs
on raw for 2 days :)

Side note...think I have been giving too much bone (chicken) All the
posts from everyone helps me narrow down what I may need to do.

Thanks for any help.

Mark

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: mixed question...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:27 am ((PDT))

"iumadness64" <iumadness64@...> wrote:
Anything special I need to know about
> her feeding habit before and/or after the surgery?
*****
If you're supplementing heavily with fish body oil, you might want to
put that on haitus for a while, or at least ask the clinic ahead of
time since HIGH doses may increase clotting time.

If they entubate her she may be hacky from the irritation; if so,
feeding soft food for a few meals may help her feel better. Also, if
the vet wants her to avoid straining, you may want to forego dietary
extremes (no excessive bone, nothing that produces squirts).
Otherwise, you should not have to make any significant changes at all.

Chris O
(I don't suppose there's any way to postpone her spay until she's done
growing, is there? Oh, and if they have a jones to jab her while she's
in, buy time by asking that she not be vaccinated so close to surgery.
Oh, and don't even bring up that she's eating a healthy raw diet.)

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Hiding food? Newbie question
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:44 am ((PDT))

Hiding food?

My pups have started taking their chicken quarters and dragging them off
the deck into the back yard.

They half bury them and then leave them for a while, going back to them
an hour (sometimes upwards of three hours) later.

This is all right for them to do, right? How long is too long before I
should hunt the yard for the chicken and toss it?

Thanks in advance!
Kathie, Mom to:
Jake Lab/something mix - 6 years/98 pounds
Max Lab - 13 weeks/30 pounds
Ruby Lab/shepherd mix - 12 weeks/20-ish pounds

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Hiding food? Newbie question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:00 am ((PDT))

Sure, it's ok for dogs to eat "ripened" meats. I wouldn't go hunting around the yard for it
myself, though. Maybe once in a while you can skip a meal for the dogs so they go to their
stashes and clean them out. Or, if it bothers you you can feed them smaller portions.
Sometimes dogs bury their food because they prefer "ripe" food, sometimes it is just because
they aren't hungry enough to finish what they were given. Another option is to take the food
from them as they head off to hide it and put it back in the fridge.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Kathie Middlemiss <geekgirl717@...> wrote:

> They half bury them and then leave them for a while, going back to them
> an hour (sometimes upwards of three hours) later.
> This is all right for them to do, right? How long is too long before I
> should hunt the yard for the chicken and toss it?

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Hiding food? Newbie question
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:36 am ((PDT))

If I give out food and the dogs don't eat it, I take it to mean that
they are not hungry and just put it up and feed them later. I don't
let them hide or bury stuff. Mostly because I live in Houston and it
will draw fire ants, which I refuse to help take over the world. Also,
if it is left over night, I would be overrun by the neighbors cats and
possums and coons. Denise

Hiding food? My pups have started taking their chicken quarters and
dragging them off the deck into the back yard. They half bury them and
then leave them for a while, going back to them an hour (sometimes
upwards of three hours) later. This is all right for them to do,
right? How long is too long before I should hunt the yard for the
chicken and toss it?

Messages in this topic (3)
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4. Raw feeding helped
Posted by: "abeautiful3" abeautiful3@yahoo.com abeautiful3
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:47 am ((PDT))

Hello this is the question that I previously posted
I have been reading the messages and came across the one about
> demodex my question is what is demodex?
>
One of my dogs had the same symptoms as the demodwx mange I was about
to make her a doctors appointment prior to starting her on raw food.
I remember that I had given her a flee treatment and also changed her
brand of kibble, and not to mention that she had just had a litter of
eleven about two months prior.

I guess what I saying is that raw was a good move for my babies, right
now it is a little pricey feeding all six but it is worth it in the
clean up and the vet bill that I did not have to make. Thanks you to
those that answered my question.

Arlene

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: newbie - few questions
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:58 am ((PDT))

A 20 lb dog probably won't finish a whole chicken, but it can eat on a
whole chicken. I posted earlier that I feed 2 5lb Chis whole chickens
and pork roasts, etc. Just let her eat what she wants or needs and put
the rest in the fridge for the next meal. Some people give veggies for
treats. They just shouldn't be part of the diet. I don't think giving
her the stalks as a chew toy will hurt as long as she's not eating
enough to replace her meal. Denise

I think a 20 pound dog is too small for a whole chicken - yeah?
And I am reading not to feed vegetables - but gabby really likes them,
she will even eat the stalks that my brussels sprouts come one, it's
like a bone to her. Should I stop giving it to her?

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: bones in poo!
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:28 am ((PDT))

Just to add to Chris O's comments:

What about leg quarters? Are those bones too hard?
****
Mostly not too hard. Maybe for very young or very small dogs. You
would be surprised what those carnivorous little teeth can
accomplish.

I feed these to small dogs (5lbers and less) all of the time.
Sometimes a new to raw dog won't eat all/any of the bone in the
beginning. They usually don't have much jaw strength because kibble
and canned don't require much effort to eat. As they go along they
get stronger and more able to eat bones.

beef liver doesn't interest him.
*****
Liver is non-negotiable, but you can try other than beef liver.
Chicken liver is fine; pork liver seems less potent than beef, so
consider that as well.

Also check the archives for tricks to get them started. I find that
some dogs that don't like liver in the beginning come around after a
while. Denise

Messages in this topic (7)
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6b. Re: bones in poo!
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:53 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "patti.h310" <patti.h310@> wrote:
I'm new to raw feeding and my 50lb. Beardie loves me for it. However,
he's very particular! Chicken wings and leg quarters are ok, but he
won't touch necks. Beef Ribs give him loose stooles. Won't touch
turkey necks or any kind of liver. Will not even consider lamb. He
loves pork neck bones but sometimes I find large, quarter sized pieces
of hard bone in his poo. (I poked it with a stick!) Should I stop
giving him the pork neck bones?

A little bone in his poop is really no big deal. It just means that he
was not able to digest all of the bone as it passed through his
system. I don't feed much pork neck bones, but when I do I add just
meat to them since they are usually heavy on bone and short on meat if
they come from the grocery store. A whole neck is a different animal
all together. The main problem, as I see it, is that you are allowing
the dog to decide his diet. This makes as much sense as letting a
child decide what they will and will not eat. The loose stool with the
beef ribs was probably because it was new and some dogs bodies have to
adjust to new foods in the beginning. Liver is the one organ that is
not negotiable. Look in the archives for various ways people convince
dogs to eat it. As far as the rest of your problems with your dog
being picky: Here's the deal, he can only be picky if you allow it.
Also if you have only been raw feeding a short time, you might be
giving him too much variety, too soon. But you haven't given enough
detail to know if that might be it or not. I know the picky eating
problem is dealt with frequently, so check the archives for that
too. Denise

Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. German Shepherd Overwieght
Posted by: "nasseralkhalifa" nasseralkhalifa@yahoo.com nasseralkhalifa
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:28 am ((PDT))

I sent a post but don't know if I did submit it or not....So I will give
it one more go:

I bought a GSD puppy a month ago. She is 3 months old now and is doing
well. My issue with feeding her is that after deworming her she has
starrted putting on weight. The issue is that it is good but now she has
gained more than I would expect. Please correct me if I am wrong. I read
on a website once that a puppy needs to be fed 2-3% its adult weight. It
sounded that it might be wrong but my thoughts were that maybe its right
as the puppys need to grow. My other worry about the weight is that as
she is growing being over my have issue with her structure as her bones
are can get affected with carrying all this weight.

Cheers,

Nasser

Messages in this topic (5)
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7b. Re: pigs feet and cow hooves
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))

nasseralkhalifa <nasseralkhalifa@yahoo.com> wrote: Dear Group,

Supermarkets by me sell pigs feet and cow hooves. Are these good for my dog. The bones on the hooves feel very hard. Is this for a meal or more for a treat.

SIncerely,

Howard

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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7c. Re: pigs feet and cow hooves
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:42 am ((PDT))

Howard Salob <itiskismet1968@...> wrote:
>
> Supermarkets by me sell pigs feet and cow hooves. Are these good
for my dog. The bones on the hooves feel very hard. Is this for a meal
or more for a treat.
****
Small, split pig's feet are at best treats. It depends on the dog.
Some people feed cow hooves because their dogs do well on them. I
don't feed split pig's feet because they are too small for my dogs and
for the same reason I do not offer cow hooves.

When my BC was a pup I gave her a hoof, figuring she was a good size
for it. She didn't demolish the thing or try to swallow it whole
(which is a good thing) but she did wake up at o'dark thirty with some
dandy hoof bit horks.

Neither of these are meals and whether they are amusements for your dog
is up to you and your dog.
Chris O

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8a. Newbie question - Chicken bones and possibility of intestinal perfor
Posted by: "hszymkowski" hszymkowski@yahoo.com hszymkowski
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))

Hello,
I've been feeding my lab raw for about 3 weeks, based entirely on what
I've read here. Breeze loves it, happily scarfs whatever I put in
front of her, and has shown no signs of any problems or distress. My
husband, who's still somewhat skeptical of raw feeding, was
"cautioned" by a biologist of the possibility of chicken bones (cooked
OR raw) causing intestinal perforation.
Any truth to that, and how do I dispel his anxiety?

Thank you all!
Heidi

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Newbie question - Chicken bones and possibility of intestinal pe
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:53 am ((PDT))

Truth about the cooked chicken bones, not the raw. You can compare two drumsticks one
cooked, one raw, to see just how hard and brittle bones get after being cooked. You've got a
whole list of people who feed chicken and don't have intestinal perforations, you should ask
the biologist friend for some proof.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hszymkowski" <hszymkowski@...> wrote:

> My husband, who's still somewhat skeptical of raw feeding, was
> "cautioned" by a biologist of the possibility of chicken bones (cooked
> OR raw) causing intestinal perforation.
> Any truth to that, and how do I dispel his anxiety?

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Newbie question - Chicken bones and possibility of intestinal pe
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:35 am ((PDT))

My husband, who's still somewhat skeptical of raw
feeding,was "cautioned" by a biologist of the possibility of chicken
bones (cooked OR raw) causing intestinal perforation. Any truth to
that, and how do I dispel his anxiety?
Thank you all!
Heidi

Biologist?, so what? The fact that there's 10,000 people on this list,
many of them have been doing this for years. Also there are breeders,
vets, vet techs, vet assts., groomers, trainers, rescuers, etc doing
this with no intestinal perforations in sight. If all this doesn't
reassure him, I'd just tell him he is a nervous nelly and needs to get
over it. But, that's just me. Denise

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. ONE (SUCCESSFUL, I THINK) WEEK OF RAW
Posted by: "Kevin & Nancy McCloskey" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:39 am ((PDT))

Hello.

I have been reading this list for the last week and decided to come out of
the woodwork and post. I have two soft-coated wheatens, Riley 2 yrs and
Molly 1 yr. For the last week I have been feeding them meals of either
chicken or beef, with a little bit of cow's liver, and some raw meaty
chicken drumsticks (and one time a meaty beef rib). So far things have gone
very well. Both dogs took to raw like they have never seen real food before
(probably because they hadn't). They enthusiastically gulp down their meal.
I've been very, very lucky (knock on wood) that I have not had diarrhea or
loose stool issues or throwing up. I do have a couple of questions for the
group though:

* Both dogs weigh 30 lbs and are relatively high energy. I am feeding
8-10 ounces of meat, bone and organ. Is this enough??? Sometimes late in
the evening they seem to be looking for more---although they aren't
obnoxious or begging. They have both always been thin dogs ( you can feel,
but not see their ribs and hip bones) and I haven't noticed them looking
emaciated.however, I do want them to be comfortable and not hungry.
* I have been feeding meaty chicken drumsticks and they chomp and
crunch on these a few times then swallow. I've read some posts that say to
feed the whole quarter leg. Given the size of my dogs, is giving them the
drumstick size safe?
* I have been using up my old treat biscuits but am wondering what I
can use once they are finished. I saw raw dehydrated salmon in the pet
store (no other additives or fillers). Would this be an appropriate treat?
How about freeze dried chicken, beef livers, or jerky?
* I live in a townhouse and so feeding outside isn't an option. I
have been giving the rmbs in the dogs' crates to keep it contained. I read
about a 50/50 mix of vinegar and water for crate cleaning. Any other
suggestions? How about tea tree oil and water??
* And finally, this might sound silly, but how worried do I need to be
about the raw food coming in contact with their beards and contaminating the
house. I have 2 boys that love to give the dogs' kisses, etc. and my
wheatens love to reciprocate.

I am truly amazed and have seen such remarkable improvements in my dogs'
demeanor and behavior. I makes me so happy to see them happy and thriving.
Thanks to all of you for the wealth of info on this list. Feeding raw can
be a very lonely thing.especially in the area in which I live. It's nice to
be able to connect with others doing the same.

Thank you,

Nancy

In New Jersey

With two exuberant Wheaten terriers

Riley - 2 yr old male

Molly - 1 yr old female

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: ONE (SUCCESSFUL, I THINK) WEEK OF RAW
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:35 am ((PDT))

They have both always been thin dogs ( you can feel, but not see
their ribs and hip bones) and I haven't noticed them looking
emaciated.

####That's not thin, that's just right.

Given the size of my dogs, is giving them the drumstick size safe?

####That's a dog to dog thing. I have a 45 lb Pit that safely eats
legs and thighs. But I have seen dogs smaller than that try to
swallow these. If your dog eats them safely or not is the deciding
factor.

I saw raw dehydrated salmon in the pet store (no other additives or
fillers). Would this be an appropriate treat? How about freeze
dried chicken, beef livers, or jerky?

####I don't really do treats so I can't help you there. If there are
little bits of food left on plates after a meal or bits they like
when I'm preparing people food I give it to the dogs. That's about
the extent of treating I do. Of course they often convince my
grandkids to share their snacks with them.

I read about a 50/50 mix of vinegar and water for crate cleaning.
Any other suggestions? How about tea tree oil and water??

####The vinegar and water is what I use, not just for cleaning after
feeding the dogs. I clean the counters, tables, floors, mirrors and
so on.

And finally, this might sound silly, but how worried do I need to be
about the raw food coming in contact with their beards and
contaminating the house. I have 2 boys that love to give the dogs'
kisses, etc. and my wheatens love to reciprocate.

####Your dogs already like their butts and other places and kiss
your kids, so I wouldn't worry about it. Denise

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: another runny poo question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:33 am ((PDT))

Hmm. . .dark brown runny poo usually comes from heart or organs around here. Your
mom might be right, the back attached to the leg quarter usually still has organs
attached, maybe that is the culprit? I would suggest fasting comet for a day to let his gut
recover. Don't limit water intake. Are you sure he isn't eating too much food at once?
Hope that helped a little.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sillypoodle2003" <angels_mom73@...> wrote:

> the schipperke (comet) almost always has runny poo after eating lately.
> it is the color and consistency of chocolate pudding. he eats about a
> half a leg quarter, then will go and drink a bunch of water. later in
> the night, he has runny poo on the floor. wondering if we should
> limit his water intake? also, his belly feels very hard and bloated
> and he wont eat for 2 days. this is just with chicken. my mother
> seems to think that there is some connection between him eating part
> of the back which is attatched to the leg quarter. so my questions
> are:

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: another runny poo question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:12 am ((PDT))

"sillypoodle2003" <angels_mom73@...> wrote:
> 1. do you all think this is a variety problem, being that their main
> diet is chicken?
*****
Stop feeding chicken and see what happens. Chicken is not magic. If
chicken consistently doesn't work, don't feed it. Or, conversely, quit
feeding everything else but chicken. One way or the other, change
something.

> 2. how do i correct the "bloating" problem? someone suggested
> probiotics/or yogurt?
*****
Stop feeding chicken and see what happens. That bloating should not
happen with adequately digested food. Quit feeding it and if that
doesn't work quit feeding everything but chicken.

i know variety is key, and we do our best.
*****
Yeah, but the key doesn't have a deadline. If you have to back up in
order to proceed, do it. If you have to tiptoe through raw to find
what works, do it. Although I absolutely believe there is a raw diet
for every dog, there's no question that you gotta find the right one
and that takes as long as it takes. Don't worry about variety if
variety is inappropriate right now.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: Fish and fur and other friends?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:42 am ((PDT))

ginny wilken <gwilken@...> wrote:
> When's THIS thread going to Rawchat? Yes on the environment.
*****
I'm sorry. You could have taken it there any time you wanted to but
definitely from this point on all goldfish husbandy discussion should
go at least as far away as RawChat. Probably further than that.

Thank you, Ginny.
(Hugs to Tomo)

Messages in this topic (16)
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12. no poop is it time to panic?
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))

if no poop on a raw feed dog.. does that mean that everything she ate was
used up and no poop is not a reason to panic?

no poop for 4 days.. then very small poop..(one 3 in long fairly dark, then
2 in long softer much lighter color) and then i think its cause i ON
PURPOSE gave her 1 cup cows milk.

she is refusing meat with bones.. wants only ground up meat. and has no
poop.. (but has strong appetite for ground up foot. or solid meat with no
bone in it.. )

she drinks water and pees ..

vet visit on monday.. vet said her heart was GREAT.. sounded like 3 yr old
dog.. he had to double check her chart for her AGE.. 9.5yrs she has energy
(but sort of down since vet visit) also lungs clear, just gunky stuff in
ears (no ear mites under microscope though)

(OH. before this her poop was dry but she was not drinking much water
either. too hot for me to move around, no one here will take her out often
for pee.. she adjusted her intake to match what was better for me. She WONT
go out the door even if i try to get her ..esp when its HOT as hot makes it
risky for me as i pass out on exertion. ) (i have exertional asthma)
--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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13a. Re: Update on my "starving" dog
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:47 am ((PDT))

I haven't gotten to the earlier posts on this, but did anybody mention
yet that a dog will not starve itself to death, but they will train
you to feed them what they want? At my house you eat what you get or
you don't eat til the next meal time and that goes for dogs or
grandkids. You wouldn't let a small child decide his/her diet
(hopefully), why would you let your dog. A dog can go a few days
without any serious consequences to skipping meals. Don't be
manipulated by your dog, that's just sad.
Denise

> I understand your point, but what is up with her rejecting the
chicken and the beef? I could see if she just hated the chicken, but
she's rejecting everything...except the cheese, of course. Obviously,
I'm keeping an eye on her b/c I would never want to make her ill
especially since the point of this diet was for her to have better
health! I'll keep everyone posted on our progress. I appreciate all
the input!
Sarah

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14a. ADMIN/Re: new to raw with a question DEMODEX
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:52 am ((PDT))

Folks, please.
A request for definition does not necessarily open the door to
discussion. Talk all demodex medical conversation ro RawChat or
DogHealth. No foolin'.
Chris O
Moderation Team

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