Feed Pets Raw Food: Sep 10, 2007

Monday, September 10, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12025

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Great article
From: johkemp
1b. Re: Great article
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2a. Re: how long to hold out with not eating
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2b. how long to hold out with not eating
From: Joy Redwine
2c. Re: how long to hold out with not eating
From: Laura Atkinson

3a. Re: Eating omnivores and carnivores?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

4a. Re: Looking for advice
From: Morledzep@aol.com

5a. Re: my puppy will not eat fish
From: Morledzep@aol.com
5b. Re: my puppy will not eat fish
From: johkemp
5c. Re: my puppy will not eat fish
From: linoleum5017

6a. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly very sick * update-looks like
From: Giselle

7a. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
From: delcaste

8a. Re: Wonderful find, Need help
From: katkellm

9a. Re: hi
From: johkemp

10a. Re: boxer pup new to "raw"
From: johkemp
10b. Re: boxer pup new to "raw"
From: Giselle

11a. Re: Stinky Kitchen
From: johkemp
11b. Re: Stinky Kitchen
From: delcaste

12a. Re: Puppy throws up and soft stools AGAIN
From: vickies_28
12b. Re: Puppy throws up and soft stools AGAIN
From: Laura Atkinson
12c. Re: Puppy throws up and soft stools AGAIN
From: katkellm

13a. Re: new member intro
From: Giselle
13b. Re: new member intro
From: Cathy Crosby

14a. Re: Rookie Questions
From: linoleum5017

15a. Re: Bony bunny bits
From: linoleum5017

Messages
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1a. Great article
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:25 pm ((PDT))

I found this article yesterday while looking for information on dogs
being carnivores to answer a yahoo question. I found it to be full of
useful information so I thought others might like to read it.

http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html

Let me know what you think.

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Great article
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:07 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/10/2007 4:26:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
johkemp@yahoo.com.au writes:

_http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html_ (http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html)

Jo,

the page you linked us to has good factual info about dogs and wolves being
carnivores.. and proper raw feeding.

what i don't get is why a vet that is actively promoting all those various
commercially prepared dog foods would put that article on his website...

what am i missing?

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: how long to hold out with not eating
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:32 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/10/2007 6:24:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
redwine1@windstream.net writes:

For those of you who have had to hold out
on your dogs, please tell me it usually does work because it it so hard to
do. Is 4-5 days
usually the longest amount of time

Joy,

i've never had a dog hold out more than 4 days.. but i have to admit i took a
different route with Merlin (the great dane pup). When he came to us he had
been trained not to eat anything but "dog food" and he was afraid of meat and
anything that might be construed as human food. And he was very young.. we
guessed at about 4 months give or take..

So instead of waiting him out we disguised meat in green tripe.. and then we
started leaving the meat on the bones, and just cutting the meat in strips and
leaving it attached to the bones. And then he made the jump to eating whole
pieces of meat without doctoring, and in a couple months i was able to hand
him just about any kind of meat on or off the bone with no trouble at all.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. how long to hold out with not eating
Posted by: "Joy Redwine" redwine1@windstream.net redwinejoy
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:58 pm ((PDT))

Thanks so much Heather and Carolyn: I really needed those words!
Really! I will be strong because I know it is best in the long
run. Day 2 and counting,,,tough love, tough love. Joy

Messages in this topic (6)
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2c. Re: how long to hold out with not eating
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:48 pm ((PDT))

One thing to consider is how you're reacting. If you're anxious "oh, baby
eat please" anxious, you're passing that along to the dog. Be calm, be cool
and pretend you don't give a rat's patootie so that you're not adding
"anxious mom" vibes to the mealtime experience.

On 9/10/07, Joy Redwine <redwine1@windstream.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks so much Heather and Carolyn: I really needed those words!
> Really! I will be strong because I know it is best in the long
> run. Day 2 and counting,,,tough love, tough love. Joy
>
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

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Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Re: Eating omnivores and carnivores?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:35 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/10/2007 7:17:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
plava_93@yahoo.com writes:

Her hasband traps furbearers (bobcats, possums, raccoons, foxes and
coyotes), she asked if I could feed any of them (except the foxes
and coyotes, we all agreed that they are too closely related to
dogs)

Maria,

all of these animals are carnivores.. i personally choose not to feed
carnivores to carnivores.. Wolves will not eat other carnivores either.. but they
do KILL other predators in their hunting grounds.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. Re: Looking for advice
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/10/2007 12:47:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ericagordon@sbcglobal.net writes:

. How about the beef back ribs or
chicken backs? Not meaty enough?

Erica,

not as a major portion of the diet.. and certainly not if you have to buy
cases.. that's just too much bone.. not enough meat.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Re: my puppy will not eat fish
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:57 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/10/2007 6:21:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mvd12720@yahoo.com writes:

i have not clue how to get him to eat it i have even fried to blend it
in with other foods
should i be giveing him a suppliement??

Melissa,

if he doesn't like fish don't bother.. fish is great for meat variety, but
it's not necessary..

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: my puppy will not eat fish
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:57 pm ((PDT))

Hi Melissa,

I got a great score of whole whiting at our local markets - 2 kg for
Au$10 - so I was pretty disappointed when the cats and pup turned their
noses up at it whole.

I cut it into chunks and they still wouldn't eat it so I ended up
putting it through the food processor, eyes, scales, bones, the lot!
After eating this a few times over the next few weeks, they then ate
the chunks of fish. The last time I tried the whole fish it ended
up 'buried' in my clean washing - not pleasant. I will stick to the
chunks for now.

Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: my puppy will not eat fish
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:19 pm ((PDT))

Melissa, my dog doesn't like bigger fish, (over .5 lbs.) He loves the
frozen, cleaned smelts, however, in the frozen section of the grocery
store. They're small, and he gobbles 'em up. (I thaw them out.)

Lynne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mvd12720" <mvd12720@...> wrote:
>
> i have not clue how to get him to eat it i have even fried to blend
it
> in with other foods

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly very sick * update-looks like
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Trish
I am so sorry to read of Molly's illness.

I have brought too many of my guys home to spend a last few nights
with the family, before having to let them go.

It never gets any easier, but bringing them home for awhile can help
everyone allow themselves to grieve.

My husband came home on hospice care for his last few months, he died
of prostate cancer at home, Dec. 2004.

Just know that caring for them, and knowing when it is time to let
them go, is the last, best thing you can do for your loved ones.

I had to let my little Perky go in June. He presented with an acute
flare up of IBD, which turned bad very quickly. It turned out that he
had a large tumor on his liver, which might not have been removable.
I'll never know, as the tumor kept his liver from storing glycogen,
and his blood sugar couldn't be brought down to a range where surgery
would have been possible. I had to hold him and say goodbye to him,
then tell my vet it was time. He only had three years with me, but
they were good ones for him. He was the last rescue my husband and I
adopted together.

Dreams are where we can touch our lost ones, and they can be as we
knew them when all was well.
TC
Giselle
with Bes in New Jersey

> Hi Giselle, it turns out she is critically ill. Her levels are off the
> charts. My hubby visited with her today and she can get up and walk a
> little, but is in severe pain. She is still NPO and on IV. Tomorrow
> they will check the levels again and if they are not down they said it
> is probably pancreatic cancer and apparently that is a done deal. They
> are taking good care of her. I hate that she is suffering and not with
> us, but I just don't know what else we can do.
<snip>
> Last night I dreamt that she came home and we fed her a rabbit. :-(
> She was such an amazing dog. She treated our youngest son, then just
> crawling, like her pup. She was originally found in a ravine with 15
> puppies and then ended up at a rescue shelter where we found her and
> brought her home 3 years ago.
>
> Thanks all for the concern and input. Will update when there is new
info.
> Trish, missing Molly
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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7a. Re: Veal Raw Meaty Bones
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:57 pm ((PDT))

(there's nothing illegal, immoral or fattening
> about gulping btw

I'd definitively be in trouble, then :)

Silvina

Messages in this topic (8)
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8a. Re: Wonderful find, Need help
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:57 pm ((PDT))

The 1st meat processor is for
> wild game, he said I can come daily and grab what I want out of
> there toss pile.. He says I can have what ever I want out of the
> insides of the cows and pigs he butchers. What do I get?

Hi Laura,
I agree with you that you should stock up on all the deer meat and
parts that you can get because that is a once a year deal. The
slaughterhouse that i go to has trim barrels that they put the
trim--read all the extra fat that comes off the meat--in. If you go
through these barrels carefully, you can usually find some useful
stuff, meaning the butcher did a bad trim job and left some meat
attached to the fat, but generally i find the stuff too fatty to feed
solo. I would take all the heart, both wild and domestic, that i
could get, and i would recommend that when you get it home you cut it
into meal size portions before freezing. It is more work at the
start, but the last time i just tossed three whole cow hearts in the
freezer, and now i'm stuck defrosting it and cutting it and then
refreezing it. Its really better to get the blood and guts stuff over
with right away. I would take kidneys and spleen, too. Just remember
how big whole kidneys or livers really are. You won't need to take
near as much of that as you'll want to take of the heart. I also take
all the heads and legs. I know that big weight bearing bones are not
recommended, but my dogs love to rip and pull the hide and meat and
that grizzly stuff off of the bones. Small leg bones, like deer and
pig and lamb are completely eaten by my dogs. I just pick up the cow
legs when there is nothing left but the stripped down bone. Sometimes
i take the skin, if its in big big hunks. I don't consider it as food
even if they do eat it, but it makes a fun shake their head, pull and
toss thing and gives them something to do if you want them to be out
of your hair for awhile. If you search the archive, you can get the
info you need on how long to freeze. I, whether right or wrong, don't
worry about that stuff and fed some deer as soon as i bring it home.
I feel like i rambled on and on, but i hope that helps some. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: hi
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:58 pm ((PDT))

> What books would you recommend? Ramona
>
>
> I found Tom Lonsdale's 'Raw Meaty Bones' and 'Work Wonders' books
great for feeding guidelines and answering any concerns I had.

For your dog that doesn't seem to keen on chewing yet, have you tried
anything meatier? Try a drumstick rather than a neck - cut slices
through the meat and maybe even cut some off the bone. He should soon
get the idea it is food.

good luck

Jo
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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10a. Re: boxer pup new to "raw"
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:58 pm ((PDT))

>
> Tiffany
>
1) If you are concerned about the meat, freeze it first. It probably
doesn't need it but if it makes you feel better then go for it :)
2) I just checked the breed standards and they say that dogs should
be around 30kg or 66 pounds so that would be about 750grams or 1.65
pounds per day - I used 2.5%. Split this over several meals and just
keep an eye on the pup. If he is not constantly searching for food
and is growing well then it is enough. If he leaves food then cut
back a bit and so on. These are guides not hard and fast rules -
take the lead from your pup.
3) Chicken wings are a great addition to a meaty meal but don't have
enough meat to be fed all the time on their own. They are a great
starting point in getting your dog to eat raw, if you start with
them now your pup will learn to crunch on anything you give him. Our
10 month old stafford chews everything we give her - raw fed from 9
weeks.

good luck and I hope this helps

Jo
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: boxer pup new to "raw"
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:25 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Tiffany!
Welcome to the raw side! ^_^
I think that if you would eat the meat you serve your dog, that it
will be all right. Are you a vegetarian? While freezing meats won't
solve all the problems you might encounter, it will kill parasites.
So, freeze the meats solid for a week before feeding. You certainly
can rinse the meat portions under running water, or even dip them
briefly in a solution of cold water and vinegar, if you think you
should before freezing.

Chicken wings that are not still attached to the chicken, or at least
the breast, are indeed too small, I think. Ditto necks.
My recommendations:

1. You want to start with 2-3% of your dog's ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
don't continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw. Tiny, toy, pregnant, puppies or very active dogs might need as
much as 4-5% or more - very large, giant, overweight or couch potato
dogs might need less than 2% to maintain.

2. Ditch the kibble or canned â" thereâ™s been plenty of discussion on
this list about why processed foods and raw don't mix; just let it
suffice that your dog can reap the benefits of raw faster and more
completely if you donate the kibble to your local shelter asap. A
species appropriate raw whole prey model diet doesn't include kibble.
Or veggies, grains or tons of supps. Or, for the most part, ground
meats. No need for w/rec/k bones either. And, your dog may be less
motivated to make the change if he can smell that kibble!

3. Feed at least 2 meals a day to start with. (three meals for a pup
under 6 months old or for tiny dogs) Feeding once a day (or even less
often) can be a great feeding plan for a dog, but not at first; too
much new food at a meal can cause digestive upset. Feed as large a
portion as you can for the size of the meal. No little pieces or cut
up, â˜bite sizedâ™ chucks. Dogs need to tear into their food and shear
hunks off to swallow and crunch bone for physical, mental and dental
health. They donâ™t chew or eat the way we do, their digestion begins
in their stomachs, not in their mouths. So swallowing big hunks of
meat and bone is fine. If it fits, its OK. If it isnâ™t happy in the
stomach, the dog will hork it up, and re eat it, so it will go down
and stay down the 2nd or 3rd time. All good, thatâ™s the way dogs are.

4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too.

5. Stay with one new protein for at least a week, maybe two. You want
the dog to be showing you he is well adjusted to the new protein
before adding in new stuff. Take it slow; add only one new protein
every week or two.

6. You can switch to a new protein by just serving it at the next
meal, and all the meals after that for a week or so, or you can add a
bite or two of the new protein in with the 'old' protein, gradually
adding more new and less 'old' over several days, until you are
feeding all new and no 'old'. Whatever works for your own dog.

7. Boneless meals tend to produce loose, even runny poops. A judicious
amount of bone in a newbie dog's meal will tend to firm things up.
There will be less poop overall; raw is much more digestible and less
goes to waste. Poops will be less frequent also, for the same reason.
Bone adds bulk, so sloppy poops can be firmed up by some (don't go
overboard!) bone at each meal at first. Too much bone and your dog
can get âœ fossilâ poops that are dry, whitish and crumbly.

8. Chicken is recommended as the first protein to be introduced for
several reasons: its cheap, easy to obtain, easy to cut into different
dog meal sized portions, you can trim visible fat and skin if you need
to tweak, most dogs will eat it and its pretty bland. Read the labels
on the chicken before you buy; don't get any that say its enhanced
with flavoring/seasonings or salt injected. Some dogs get itchy or
vomit or get true diarrhea from enhancements. Whole chickens are the
best to start with, ime. Cut into portion sizes with kitchen shears,
as needed.

9. Some newbie dogs vomit or poop bone bits. There is an adjustment
period, so you want some bone in most meals at first, but too much
bone may not be digested and the dog will just hork it up or poop it
out. NPs, its just the dog's way of saying "Too much right now, no
thanks."

10. Some dogs will get the Bile Vomits or Bone Bile Vomits (BV or BBV)
when new to raw simply because their schedules or routines of eating
have been changed. When a dog adjusts to raw, his gastric 'juices'
become much more acid, to better digest the raw meat and bone. If he's
expecting a meal at a certain time, the 'juices start flowing' in
anticipation of getting a meal. When the meal doesn't happen, the dog
often will hork up the yellowish, foamyish bile, with or without
bones. Sometimes they hork up BBV because raw digests faster than
kibble, the tummy is empty, so it must be time to eat. NP for the dog,
he's gotten rid of the irritation. He may react as if he feels bad,
just because you are upset that he did it on your new comforter, or on
the white carpet.

11. A lot of dogs don't drink as much water or as frequently when
switched to all raw, all the time. Raw has a pretty high water content
and most dogs are forced by dry as dust kibble to over drink water to
compensate in order for their bodies to process it. If only fed raw,
you don't need to coax your dog to drink more water or even broth,
just offer plenty of fresh water, he'll drink when he needs it.

12. True diarrhea is not just loose, runny or sloppy poops. It is
frequent, liquid or watery explosions of poo that a dog cannot 'hold
back'. True diarrhea, imo, is caused by disease, parasites or
inappropriate food or non food items. The occasional loose poops, even
over a few days, from feeding a few too many boneless meals or
introing a new protein or feeding too much organ at one whack, is not
diarrhea.

13. The general rule of thumb for feeding raw is: 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue) 10% EDIBLE bone (not all bone that is
served must be consumed) and 10% organs (5% of this is liver, the rest
is as much variety as you can find and afford) This is not an
immutable 'daily requirement'. Balance Over Time, over weeks and
months is one of the raw feeding mottos. ; ) If you feed true whole
prey, that is; entire animals at a time, then the meat to bone to
organ ratios are 'perfect' for that creature. Whatever parts your dog
can eat of is right for him. In the wild, wolves will eat off a large
animal carcass for days, and each wolf gets different parts. If times
are hard, they will consume the entire critter, including skin, fur,
less 'choice' parts and will even crack the hard long bones to get to
the marrow. If pickin's are plentiful, they will eat the easiest and
choice parts, and then move on. Because of variances in size, age,
personality, life experiences and dental ability, a particular dog
will be able to consume, or not: all or part or some or a little bone
from any particular animal. If you feed 'Frankenprey', that is; a
variety of protein, body parts and organs from different animals, to
simulate the whole prey experience for your dogs, you are challenged
to find enough variety in all these aspects for optimal health.

14. Organs - don't try to add a lot of organs or organ variety at
first. An easy way to satisfy the human need to "Do it all, right
now!", is to toss the gizzards and heart you get with your whole
chickens in with a bonier meal, a little piece at a meal. Heart and
gizzards are organs, but should be fed as meatymeat. The liver can be
cut up into teensy bits, and fed a tiny bit at a time with a meal.
This will allow you to feed organs, but shouldn't cause runny stools.
If it does, cut it out and freeze those parts for later down the line.
My list of organs, so I don't forget to look for variety; liver, heart
(fed as meat), cheek meat, head meat, salivary glands, feet, lips,
oxtail, spleen, tongue (usually fed as meat), weasand meat
(esophagus), tripe, stomach, sweetbread (thymus & pancreas), ears,
kidneys, brain, tripe, poultry giblets - heart, liver, gizzard and
snouts. Heads, with all the â˜stuffâ™, including eyes.
"offal" - viscera and trimmings of a butchered animal often considered
inedible by
humans.

15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is "used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis."
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in 1/2 ounce
meatballs, for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with
each meal. Or, fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or
two) offer plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout
the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after,
gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You
will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of
the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog's body will do
the same sometimes even without SEBP.

16. You can feed pretty much any animal or animal part that your dog
will eat and that won't break the bank. : ) Common grocery store
variety suffices for some; chicken, turkey, pork, beef, lamb, fish,
rabbit. Others can obtain at a reasonable price and feed; goat,
venison, emu, ostrich, bison, beefalo, elk, mutton, mice, rats, guinea
hen, quail, bear (bear? ;) ), the list goes on and on.

17. If you must supplement, you can add Salmon or Fish Body oil,
either in caps or liquid. Make sure it doesn't have any plant based
oils, like soy, in there. You probably don't need much. Follow the
recommendations that come with the product you buy:
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html

In the case of true disease, you may need certain supps, but this is
the exception to the rule, most dogs donâ™t.

18. Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!

âœ Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

A) Look up meat and poultry packers, processors, and distributors in
the yellow pages. You may be able to get great prices from them if
you order in bulk, and/or they may have a discount outlet that is
open to the public.
B) I get many of my best deals in Asian/Oriental markets. I've also
heard that Hispanic and Caribbean markets have great variety and
prices too.
C) You may be able to join a barter group.
D) Google breeders (i.e. rabbit, goat, lamb, etc.) who are in your
geographic area. They may have culls they want to get rid of, or
lower prices overall.
E) Look up bulk suppliers and frozen bulk foods in your yellow pages.
F) If you have a Chinatown nearby, definitely make a visit.
G) Let your friends, relatives, and neighbors know you want any
freezer burn or old meat when they clean out their freezers, and tell
them to pass the word along.
H)If you belong to a church or social group, tell those members to
mention it to their friends and relatives as well.
I) See if there are any co-ops or meat buying groups near you. Check
on Yahoo, or Google to see.
J) Try craigslist - it's amazing what you can get for free or cheap.
K) And I get meat and fish all the time (for free) through
FreeCycle. Join multiple lists if there are a few close by.
L) Some Wal-marts and some Costcos and some Samâ™s Clubs have good
deals, but you may want to make sure it's not seasoned meat.
M) Definitely watch the flyers, and you can usually see the rest
of the flyers online (the ones that don't get delivered to your house,
but are only a short drive away).
N) *** Hands down, the bulk of my best deals have been marked down
meat at regular grocery stores. They reduce it the day before it is
going to expire, and I go as early as I can to get it before it is
gone.
O) Tell friends and relatives who hunt and fish that you want first
dibs on any body parts they don't. You can probably get at least the
organs and maybe the head. Also ask them to put you in touch with
their other friends who hunt and fish.
P) A great tip I learned here a while back â" some restaurants
throw out things they don't use, like the organs that come inside
whole poultry, or raw meat that falls on the floor. See if they'll
save them for you. Find somebody who knows somebody who works there.
Q) Farmer's markets are great, but pick and choose carefully for the
best bargains. And sometimes at the end of the day some vendors will
reduce their prices, â˜cause they don't want to take it back with them.
R) Some people contact taxidermists, who have no use for the meat.
S) Find people on this list from your vicinity, and ask them where
they get their meat deals. Join other raw feeding lists (there are
many), and ask if there are other raw feeders in your area.
T) Tell your butcher you want the meat that they would normally
throw out, that is almost out of date, that people ordered and didn't
pick up, stuff that was dropped on the floor, their freezer
cleanouts, and parts that don't sell (like trachea, lungs, spleen,
etc.). Some butchers will save their trim for you (once they get to
know you). Build a relationship with them first.
U) Yes, roadkill works too (where it is legal). In some places you
can get your name on the list and get called when they have large
roadkill. (like deer)
V) You can raise your own meat/poultry if you have the room.
W) Post a message in Carnivore Feed-Supplier or CFS-Canada if you are
in North America:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS-Canada/
X) Speak to local farmers.
Y) Also, look for heart, tongue, and gizzards, which count as meat (as
opposed to organ) in the world of raw feeding, but are often cheaper
than other muscle meats.
Z) Find somebody who knows somebody who works at the grocery store.
They can introduce you to the meat guy, who may become more willing
to save stuff for you or reduce items about to expire, once they know
you.
AA) Check the internet. Some suppliers have affordable prices, even
after shipping costs are calculated.

Lisâ

19. Donâ™t hover! It takes some dogs a couple of days to realize that
what youâ™re giving them is real food, and theyâ™re allowed to eat it.
This process will take less time if youâ™re not standing over them in
an excess of anxiety. Some dogs react to that kind of anxiety by
acting as if they donâ™t want the food, when in reality, they are just
confused by your mixed signals. Remember, âœpeople foodâ has always
been off limits to him prior to this! Take the food to his feeding
place, put it on an old towel or rug and have a seat. Donâ™t stare, but
do hang out, reading a magazine until heâ™s done and you can let him
outside and fold up his towel.

It really isn't that hard to raw feed your dog. There's a learning
curve, definitely. But, that's what this list is here for.
Read as many daily posts as you can, read the files on the website,
and follow those links! Search in the archives for past posts with
keywords; new to raw, newbie, help, how do I start or other words that
reflect your specific search.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/?yguid=200913350
TC, and let us know how you and your dog progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> So I have a 3 month old Boxer who weighs about 17 lbs now. I am
wanting to start him on raw food, but have a few questions;
> 1. I am a little concerned about the meat available to me. I
live in India and there are not health standards like in the US or UK.
All meat comes from butchers but cannot guarantee the quality. Is
there any way I could clean it prior to serving it to my dog?
> 2. I should serve him 2-3% of his estimated Adult weight right?
so this would be around 1.4 lbs a day
> 3. I am a little confused...is it OK to give them chicken wings
or are they too small?
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
> Tiffany

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: Stinky Kitchen
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:58 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "michelleraia1"
<michelleraia1@...> wrote:
>
> My husband says our who kitchen area stinks like raw meat all of
the time.
> Michelle
>
Are you sure it is not in his head? Yes sometimes when I am bagging
meat to freeze the kitchen may get a bit smelly, especially if there
is offal but once the meat is packed away and the bench wiped and
dried the smell soon clears. And I use ENJO fibre products so there
is no chemical smell masking the odours either.

One of the other posters mentioned that her mother used to do the
same thing but because she didn't agree with the raw feeding. Could
this be the problem?

Eucalyptus oil is a nice fresh smell - try putting a bit in with some
white vinegar and spray the benches with that.

Messages in this topic (6)
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11b. Re: Stinky Kitchen
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:02 pm ((PDT))

> My husband says our who kitchen area stinks like raw meat all of the
> time. I clean the counters after preparing the meals~is there
anything
> else I can do~I don't want him to hate raw feeding...HELP~
>
> Michelle

Hi Michelle. My kitchen will get a bad smell when I bag all the frozen
meat and organs, etc., but it goes away. I use a very light air
freshner (actually it absorbs odors) and make sure to bag all the bags
the meat was in, the trimmings, in short, everything associated with
the raw meat and then I put it in the freezer until garbage day :) (I
had a problem with maggots by leaving it in the garage wrapped up. I
have not idea how a fly could've gotten in). Good luck.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (6)
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12a. Re: Puppy throws up and soft stools AGAIN
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:59 pm ((PDT))

He threw up again. Now it's like almost every morning my puppy throws
up bile. I feed him last around 6-7 pm,. not sure what else to do? Very
frustrated. I am afraid Iwill have to take him off raw since my husband
gave me an ultimatum.H e believes that this throwing up is because is
feeling sick.
Please help
any advice would be appreciated. Do other dogs do it often?
Vickie

Messages in this topic (6)
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12b. Re: Puppy throws up and soft stools AGAIN
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:49 pm ((PDT))

Throwing up bile is 'cause his tummy is empty. Give him a snack before
bedtime and see if that helps. Or get up early before the husband and give
puppy a morning snack. What the husband doesn't see or step in can't hurt
him :-)

On 9/10/07, vickies_28 <vickies_28@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> He threw up again. Now it's like almost every morning my puppy throws
> up bile. I feed him last around 6-7 pm,. not sure what else to do? Very
> frustrated. I am afraid Iwill have to take him off raw since my husband
> gave me an ultimatum.H e believes that this throwing up is because is
> feeling sick.
> Please help
> any advice would be appreciated. Do other dogs do it often?
> Vickie
>
>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
> Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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12c. Re: Puppy throws up and soft stools AGAIN
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:54 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vickies_28" <vickies_28@...> wrote:
>
> He threw up again.

Hi Vickie,
I think that the problem might be that, since your dog is 6 months
old, 2 meals a day are not enough. Some people feed 3 meals a day
until their dog is 9-10 months old. If you can't feed a midday meal,
i would try adding a bed time snack sized meal and reduce the food
amount of the other 2 meals a tad. I also read that since he didn't
poo, you added liver to get him to go. Try to relax and not react
right away and rush to fix something that might not be broken. It
also sounds like you have been feeding lots of variety for a dog that
has only been eating raw for a month. You have forever to feed all
kinds of food. For now, i'd slow down and get a good routine going
with one protein source, 3xs a day-not more food just more frequent
meals. Good Luck, KathyM who know all about crabby dhs

Messages in this topic (6)
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13a. Re: new member intro
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:47 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Cathy!
Welcome to the raw side!
I have a bunch of suggestions!
Just post again if you have more Qs.

I don't 'do' math, either. There's a sorta formula in my suggestions,
but I personally don't weigh my dog, or her food. I just feed her, and
let what she looks and feels like guide me.
Its not rocket science nor brain surgery - just feeding your dog the
species appropriate way! ^_^

1. You'll want to start with 2-3% of your dog's ESTIMATED IDEAL ADULT
weight. Tweak with more meat if your dog gets a bit skinny, a bit less
if your dog gets 'fluffy' over the space of a few weeks. You might
start out by weighing your dog, and weighing her meals; but most peeps
don't continue once they get more comfortable and casual about feeding
raw. Tiny, toy, pregnant, puppies or very active dogs might need as
much as 4-5% or more - very large, giant, overweight or couch potato
dogs might need less than 2% to maintain.

4. Feed a little less at each meal at first than you think you should.
Too much new food over the course of a day or two can cause digestive
upset, too.

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html

In the case of true disease, you may need certain supps, but this is
the exception to the rule, most dogs donâ™t.

18. Lis' List; ways to creatively source cheaper variety in protein,
parts and organs. FreeCycle and craigslist are great ways to find a
free or cheap freezer to hold all the scores you'll be making!

âœ Where do you look for meat suppliers?

Permission to repost from Lis

Lisâ

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/?yguid=200913350
TC, and let us know how you and your dog progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi everyone-
> I'm Cathy and I live in California. I have a 2 year old Chinese
> Crested who has developed a bunch of food allergies.
<snip>
> Also, it looks like you all don't feed bones at every meal, is that
> right? If that is true, how many meals per week have bones? And one
> more question, I found a good deal on a bunch of duck heads. (YUM)
> does anyone have an opinion on if they would be good or are they too
> small for her? Thanks for any help you can offer.
> Cat
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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13b. Re: new member intro
Posted by: "Cathy Crosby" biblecat@sbcglobal.net waycoolcavies
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:52 pm ((PDT))

Goodness! That was extremely helpful. Thanks for sending it along. It
answered a bunch of my questions. I am keeping it as a text file so I
can refer back to it when I need to.

I sure appreciate the support from you all. I was up several nights in
a row trying to figure it all out! I should have joined this group
earlier!!!
Thanks again,
Cathy

Messages in this topic (9)
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14a. Re: Rookie Questions
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:55 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "krystal_brr" <rkbarr@...> wrote:
>
> How do I know how much fat to add? Is this another just watch and
see things, or is there a formula for protein to fat ratios?

****
I'm inclined to reiterate what Chris O said about offering a variety
to your dog, who will choose what it needs of meat, bone, and fat,
too. Just be sure to include some fat, that's all.

>
> Maybe I'll start raising pigs, although I don't think the
neighbors would appreciate all the bears that would draw:0

****
Hmmm, now bear meat sounds interesting...... lots of fat on them!
Enough meat to share w/the neighbors, even!

<smile>
Lynne

Messages in this topic (6)
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15a. Re: Bony bunny bits
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:37 pm ((PDT))

Well, my dog gets 'ripened' bunny bits fresh, fur and all. He does
vomit them up now and then, but I always attributed it to the 'aged'
quality, and all the fur.... I've given 'dressed' (ahem, I call it
undressed,) rabbit once, and had no problem.

Lynne

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "brutus_buckley"
<brutus_buckley@...> wrote:
>
> I have noticed that both of my dogs will typically vomit up some
tiny bone fragments the day after eating rabbit. This doesn't happen
with any other meals. Anyone else experience this?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12024

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. new member intro
From: Cathy Crosby
1b. Re: new member intro
From: Andrea
1c. Re: new member intro
From: Cathy Crosby

2a. Re: Trichinella concerns?
From: Sandee Lee
2b. Re: Trichinella concerns?
From: steph.sorensen

3a. Re: Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
From: mrskheath

4a. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly very sick * update-looks like
From: Trish
4b. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly very sick * update-looks like
From: ginny wilken

5a. Re: Eating omnivores and carnivores?
From: meg_helmes
5b. Re: Eating omnivores and carnivores?
From: millser25
5c. Re: Eating omnivores and carnivores?
From: Cathy Crosby
5d. Re: Eating omnivores and carnivores?
From: brutus_buckley

6a. Wonderful find, Need help
From: lauraanimal1
6b. Re: Wonderful find, Need help
From: lauraanimal1
6c. Re: Wonderful find, Need help
From: lauraanimal1

7a. Looking for advice
From: erica
7b. Re: Looking for advice
From: Sandee Lee
7c. Re: Looking for advice
From: Yasuko herron
7d. Re: Looking for advice
From: steph.sorensen

8a. how long to hold out with not eating
From: Heather Robertson
8b. how long to hold out with not eating
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)

9a. Re: dogs chewing RMBs
From: Laurie Swanson

10. Bony bunny bits
From: brutus_buckley

11. Dachsie puppy who is too thin
From: K Carolyn Ramamurti

12a. Re: {RawFeeding & Raw Chat}Sharing meat between dogs
From: tottime47

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. new member intro
Posted by: "Cathy Crosby" biblecat@sbcglobal.net waycoolcavies
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:54 am ((PDT))

Hi everyone-
I'm Cathy and I live in California. I have a 2 year old Chinese
Crested who has developed a bunch of food allergies. I had heard about
raw feeding but though it was too much trouble before. Now I can't
find a commercial feed that doesn't have anything she's allergic to,
so here I am.I figure this way I can be certain what is going into her
food.

I have a bunch of questions but I'll probably go slowly so as not to
wear you all out. My first question is about how much to feed her. I
keep looking online and I see all of these formulas! I was never good
at math and just looking at them is overwhelming to me. Can someone
help me figure it out. She weighs about 10 pounds and is on the slim
side, but I just had her spayed. I fed her raw for the first time last
night and she seems like she's still hungry this morning to me. Last
night she seemed to be full though.

Also, it looks like you all don't feed bones at every meal, is that
right? If that is true, how many meals per week have bones? And one
more question, I found a good deal on a bunch of duck heads. (YUM)
does anyone have an opinion on if they would be good or are they too
small for her? Thanks for any help you can offer.
Cat

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: new member intro
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:04 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Cat, welcome to the group!

> My first question is about how much to feed her. I keep looking
> online and I see all of these formulas!

Well, since your girl is about 10lbs, that makes it much easier. You
should probably start feeding her about 3% of her ideal weight, so
you're shooting for somewhere in the neighborhood of .3lbs (4-5oz?). I
feed big dogs, so I'm not sure what .3lbs equates to, but I would
imagine somewhere around a chicken thigh or half a bone in chicken
breast.

> I fed her raw for the first time last night and she seems like she's
> still hungry this morning to me. Last night she seemed to be full
> though.

I'll tell you my pups always "seem" like they are hungry. The best way
to determine if you're feeding enough is to wait a while and see if
she's losing/gaining weight. 3% of the body weight is a good starting
point, but some dogs need more or less.

> Also, it looks like you all don't feed bones at every meal, is that
> right? If that is true, how many meals per week have bones?

I don't determine bone/no bone days, and I would imagine that most
others on the list don't do this either. Just keep in mind that you
want to feed mostly meat (somewhere near 80%), some bone (~10%), and
some organ (~10%). If I feed pork ribs or something boney on Monday,
I'm likely to feed just meaty meat or something with just a bit of bone
on Wednesday. Some here are most comfortable (or their dogs do best)
with a bit of bone every day. It will be one of those things that you
and your pup can determine down the line. Raw feeding is really
flexible, I promise.

> And one more question, I found a good deal on a bunch of duck heads.
> (YUM) does anyone have an opinion on if they would be good or are
> they too small for her?

In the future they will be great! For now, you probably want to stick
with plain old chicken for a week or two before you introduce any heads
or other protein sources. If you have space you can buy them and
freeze them for later. If you have more questions, don't hesitate.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: new member intro
Posted by: "Cathy Crosby" biblecat@sbcglobal.net waycoolcavies
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:46 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Andrea-
That helps clear things up. I'm a pretty obsessive/ compulsive type so I
have to try to do everything perfectly. I'm sure I'll relax before long
but until then it really helps to have people to hold your hand!

Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: Trichinella concerns?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

There's no shortage of misinformation (or old wife's tales) is there????
:))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "susan holbeck" <nu1edie@yahoo.com>

> I got my butt CHEWED by a gal at a rescue orginization when I told her I
fed raw pork. She's ok with raw feeding, but only in the winter (HUH?)...
and meat only, no bone. I nearly started to cry because she had me
convinced I was killing my dog with pork and RMB's. Geez... I'm glad I
have you guys!

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Trichinella concerns?
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:44 pm ((PDT))

Girl, I feel your pain! I was hitting up co-workers just today for old
meat they may have in their freezer. One of them comes in and says, "I
highly recommend that you not feed your dogs bones." Apparently, he
was a vet tech for two years, and a dog came in that was nearly dead.
It died on the operating table, and when they opened it up, pork bone
splinters (pork rib bones, he said) had pierced the insides so severely
that the digestive tract was simply mush.

I asked him if he knew if the bones were cooked or raw, because raw
bones don't tend to splinter like that, and he said he didn't know. I
just smiled and nodded and said thanks for the info. :)

Just get ready to defend yourself, because you will be in the minority
as a raw feeder and you will be chastised for it!

-Steph
Scarlet (can't talk now - eating a venison shoulder)
Lucy (mouth full)
Minkey

>
> From: "susan holbeck" <nu1edie@...>
>
>
> > I got my butt CHEWED by a gal at a rescue orginization when I told
her I
> fed raw pork. She's ok with raw feeding, but only in the winter
(HUH?)...
> and meat only, no bone. I nearly started to cry because she had me
> convinced I was killing my dog with pork and RMB's. Geez... I'm
glad I
> have you guys!
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Hi, new here, need help with raw feeding my siberian huskies
Posted by: "mrskheath" mrskheath@yahoo.co.uk mrskheath
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:02 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm always happy to see more Siberian Husky owners move their dogs
over to
> raw feeding <g>.
>
Well hello again! So nice to hear from you. lol. Well, I'm off to the
butchers and am calling local meat packers tomorrow. Woohoo. Thanks.

Karlene

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly very sick * update-looks like
Posted by: "Trish" trishwelham@hotmail.com trishwelham
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:02 pm ((PDT))

-
>
> my dogs never stayed unless critically ill. They came home with me
> asap. Most (all?) vets won't let you stay with your dog, but unless
> she is critically ill, she needs to be home with you.

Hi Giselle, it turns out she is critically ill. Her levels are off the
charts. My hubby visited with her today and she can get up and walk a
little, but is in severe pain. She is still NPO and on IV. Tomorrow
they will check the levels again and if they are not down they said it
is probably pancreatic cancer and apparently that is a done deal. They
are taking good care of her. I hate that she is suffering and not with
us, but I just don't know what else we can do.

> Why is she on Prednisone? I'd wean her off asap.
>
She has bad allergies and her itching caused a lot of secondary
infections, eye, ear, etc.

Last night I dreamt that she came home and we fed her a rabbit. :-(
She was such an amazing dog. She treated our youngest son, then just
crawling, like her pup. She was originally found in a ravine with 15
puppies and then ended up at a rescue shelter where we found her and
brought her home 3 years ago.

Thanks all for the concern and input. Will update when there is new info.
Trish, missing Molly

Messages in this topic (10)
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4b. Re: raw feeding for 2 years, suddenly very sick * update-looks like
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:57 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 10, 2007, at 12:28 PM, Trish wrote:

I'm terribly sorry for your predicament and her suffering. I hope
that if she is terminal they will give you pain meds and let you take
her home. If it IS cancer, know that the scenario was set up a long
time ago, even with inherited factors, and that not diet nor anything
else you did could make much difference either way. You gave her a
good life she never would have had otherwise.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Eating omnivores and carnivores?
Posted by: "meg_helmes" mhelmes@gmail.com meg_helmes
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:02 pm ((PDT))

Maria-
If you feel comfortable feeding wild game, then I say enjoy the
bounty! Carnivores WILL eat other carnivores, if they catch it or find
it dead. Herbivore or critters that are considered "normal" prey for
large carnivores are the main source of food because they are (1) more
plentiful and usually (2) easier to catch. The river otters at the zoo
I currently work at caught and ate a wild red tailed hawk (we are
still not completely sure how the managed it!).

Also, people have brought up the concern of rabies. There may be
infectious agents you want to worry about coming feeding wild game to
your pets, but rabies should not be one of them. Rabies cannot live
outside of a host for more than a few seconds. It may survive in a
dead animal a little while (some say as long as 48 hours, but that is
pretty rare). If you freeze the meat, the virus will NOT be able to
survive or be transmitted.

(See, I knew that wildlife management class would be useful someday!)

~Meg

Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: Eating omnivores and carnivores?
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:04 pm ((PDT))

I would consider the possum, but not the others. I think a possum is
low enough on the food chain that a wild dog would consider eating it
when there are no other options. After all, possums are rodents, and
wolves and foxes will eat omnivorous rodents when necessary. But, I
agree with one of the previous posters - sample first! It is likely
your dog won't like the flavor. Strict herbivors taste and smell
differently than carnivors and omnivors. So the flavor of carnivors
and omnivors may be offensive to your dog.

Also, I would steer far clear of the raccoon. My mother in law does
wildlife rescue for the Department of fish and wildlife in our state.
They have to be very careful with the raccoons they care for, so as
not to spread disease to their other "patients". In addition to
rabies, raccoons tend to carry many other viruses and bacteria that
can be quite dangerous to other animals. After releasing a raccoon,
my mother in law has to clean out their cages and accessories with
undiluted bleach and other extremely harsh chemicals. She has to keep
her raccoon cages, feeding bowls, lavages, toys, etc. all separate and
exclusively for raccoon use only. I'm not entirely sure but I do not
believe that any wild animal eats raccoons - except maybe scavengers
who may eat their carcasses.
If you do decide to try to feed these animals, please let us know how
it goes.
Erica

Messages in this topic (7)
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5c. Re: Eating omnivores and carnivores?
Posted by: "Cathy Crosby" biblecat@sbcglobal.net waycoolcavies
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:45 pm ((PDT))

I'm new here and don't want to cause trouble but as a breeder of
rodents, I can tell you that opossums are not rodents. They are
marsupials. I think they may be the only marsupials native to north
America, but I could be wrong about that. They do look like giant rats,
though.
Cat

Messages in this topic (7)
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5d. Re: Eating omnivores and carnivores?
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

//After all, possums are rodents, and wolves and foxes will eat
omnivorous rodents when necessary.//

***Possums are not rodents; they are marsupials. Wolves may consider
them food nonetheless.

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Wonderful find, Need help
Posted by: "lauraanimal1" lauraanimal1@yahoo.com lauraanimal1
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:04 pm ((PDT))

Ok guys I need some help, I have lucked out big time, I just moved a
few months ago to this town and now is hunting season, i talked to
this meat processing plant and they said I could come daily and see
what they have tossed and take what I want. Then they gave me a name
of a butcher who goes to ranch to ranch to butcher, he said I could
have anything I wnted that was left over....so I need your help as to
what I need to get...... Thanks all
Laura and Ishta

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Wonderful find, Need help
Posted by: "lauraanimal1" lauraanimal1@yahoo.com lauraanimal1
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:09 pm ((PDT))

Sorry guys, heres a bit more info. The 1st meat processor is for
wild game, he said I can come daily and grab what I want out of
there toss pile. The 2nd one is a traveling butcher as well as has
his own store. He says I can have what ever I want out of the
insides of the cows and pigs he butchers. What do I get? I know that
heart and liver is great as well as green tripe and treacheas and
lungs, what else? He did say I could get the heads too if I wanted
and that included the brains. And depending on the what the people
wanted, if they dont want the tongues I can have them too. Basicaly
anything the owner doesent want I can have. So do I get some of the
skin of the cows and pigs? and what do i need to keep and eye out
for, both good and bad? What are the very best parts that my Rotti
needs the most of? I have a upright freezer that I can fill,but I
cant put everything that is offered in there, it would be just to
much. The main thing is the wild game I want to get what i can of
that 1st cause it wont last long, and the other butcher is year
round but,I want to get the best out of what is offered before my
freezer fills up. Also I know that some of the wild game needs to be
frozen for a while to kill off any varmits hiding in them, how long
should I keep them froze for?

Thanks again for your help and words of wisdom.
Laura and Ishta

Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Wonderful find, Need help
Posted by: "lauraanimal1" lauraanimal1@yahoo.com lauraanimal1
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

Thanks again for your help and words of wisdom.
Laura and Ishta

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Looking for advice
Posted by: "erica" ericagordon@sbcglobal.net ericagsweet
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:46 pm ((PDT))

Hello, I joined a raw deeding coop & they are ordering this week!
After reviewing my options I'm not sure if I want anything from this
particular order. I have available, beef back ribs, chicken necks,
chicken backs, chicken gizzards, veal heart, beef liver, ground beef,
ground turkey, ground pork.

I feed much meater bones than any of those & I don't feed ground
meat. I follow more of a prey diet, although I do buy larger parts.
So I'm feeling like it isn't worth it. Maybe to fill in for the
bonless meals? The price on the chicken necks is great, but I don't
feed them. I have a 55 lb pitty, I think she would swallow them
whole. I was considering the turkey necks until I saw the price. It
went up to $.99/lb shich is the same price I pay for turkey legs &
wings, so it hardley seems worth it. How about the beef back ribs or
chicken backs? Not meaty enough?

TIA for you advice!
Erica

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Looking for advice
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:11 pm ((PDT))

Erica,

I think you've got the right idea. I'd skip it unless they have a good
price on the heart and liver...or is it ground also? Nothing you have
listed is meaty enough to bother with. Beef ribs, if they come in a slab,
would be ok, but they are not meaty and most often the bones cannot be
consumed.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "erica" <ericagordon@sbcglobal.net>

Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: Looking for advice
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:45 pm ((PDT))

>Hello, I joined a raw deeding coop & they are ordering this week!

Hi,Erica.That is great. The price maybe cheaper than you usually seeat stores?

> I have available,

>beef back ribs

If the price was reasonable(nothing like 14 dollars for 2-3lb ribs and what you see is almost bone and paying 14 dollars for bone,I skip it),and you are ok to add meat to rib meal to compensate for the bony meal,then,I think that is ok.

I fed Beef Short rib which has thicker bone than back rib I think,but meat was 2-3inches on top of the bone,so,I fed it.I got it from grocery store. Each dog has different jaw strength,but mine ate all.She spent more than hour to finish it up,but she was happy.

,>chicken necks,

I would not buy neck intentionally. If you have small dogs and like to use for treat/snacks maybe..You can get one when you buy Whole chicken

>chicken backs,

Buying bunch of parts like wings/backs andadd more meat to feed maybe option but I would not do that.I rather buy whole and cut the whole chicken to portion. Reason why is,buying whole chicken is much much cheaper than buying parts by parts and if you have whole chicken and when you cut it,back has bit of breast meat and rib etc as well.

For your information,if you live in VA,and if you go to Ukrop this week,you can buy whole fresh chicken 58 cents per pound!! (Virginians may want to check out maybe??)

>chicken gizzards

I have stock in freezer but I bought at shoppers. It is not big in nutrition i think but since I rotating this with other liver etc in a week asside dish,I have it,but I am thinking that after finishing up the stock I may replace this with another animal's liver+kidney,and feed gizzard when I buy whole chicken andcome with.

,>veal heart

Never seen at grocerystore but is it reasonable priced? If yes,you can feed it as boneless meal but maybe want to start from small amount to feed.

>, beef liver,

If the price were good,it is good one to order I think. some stores like shoppers carry beef liver,pork liver etc as well. You may want to check the price from store and compare.

>ground beef,ground turkey, ground pork.

I don't feed any meat that is ground. I rather buy hunk of big meat not ground.

Only ground products I may find it useful is Green Tripe. 'cause you cannot get it from normal grocery store. But this item is not required item.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7d. Re: Looking for advice
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:06 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Aw, I also have a 55 lb pitty! And I agree with you - I don't feed
ground either, and I think backs and necks are too bony. If you do
decide to feed those, I would feed along with a portion of boneless
meat as well, just to get the balance right.

I've fed mine pork neck bones as a snack before, but again, I don't
recommend it unless you feed it along with a good meaty meat portion
as well.

I also feed her approximately 8-10 lbs of food a week, if that helps
you at all. :)

-Steph
Scarlet
Lucy
Minkey

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "erica" <ericagordon@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, I joined a raw deeding coop & they are ordering this week!
> After reviewing my options I'm not sure if I want anything from
this
> particular order. I have available, beef back ribs, chicken necks,
> chicken backs, chicken gizzards, veal heart, beef liver, ground
beef,
> ground turkey, ground pork.
>
> I feed much meater bones than any of those & I don't feed ground
> meat. I follow more of a prey diet, although I do buy larger
parts.
> So I'm feeling like it isn't worth it. Maybe to fill in for the
> bonless meals? The price on the chicken necks is great, but I
don't
> feed them. I have a 55 lb pitty, I think she would swallow them
> whole. I was considering the turkey necks until I saw the price.
It
> went up to $.99/lb shich is the same price I pay for turkey legs &
> wings, so it hardley seems worth it. How about the beef back ribs
or
> chicken backs? Not meaty enough?
>
> TIA for you advice!
> Erica
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. how long to hold out with not eating
Posted by: "Heather Robertson" clasix2003@rnsmte.com lotsadogz2003
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi, I have 10 dogs and when I fed rabbit(whole, fur on) I had 3 dogs that decided they did not like Rabbit. It took 4 days of trying the rabbit for about 15 min each day and nothing else, no treats!!! and they all ate it. You just have to wait till they are hungry. Be firm, don't feel guilty and make sure no one else is slipping them treats.
Good Luck, Heather

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. how long to hold out with not eating
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:24 pm ((PDT))

My Toy Poodle, Molly, has held out for four days with no food, with no
visible problem, even when she weighed a big three pounds, soaking wet.
She used to do this all the time when I gave her something she would
like to see permanently removed from the menu (which still happens to be
everything but chicken).

Naturally I was completely freaked out, at first, but eventually she
always ate. This group saved me from a lifetime (Molly's) of trying to
please a picky picky eater. Thank God for this group!

BTW, she still pulls this little trick from time to time; testing,
testing. I am SO on to her little games! I want a happy healthy dog, and
there is no way to get a healthy dog if she only eats chicken, which is
so very clearly her preference. She gets it once a week, IF she's lucky.

Carolyn J. Garnaas and Molly, Extraordinarily OPINIONATED Toy Poodle

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Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: dogs chewing RMBs
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:19 pm ((PDT))

Jody,

Well, the way he eats is the way he eats! :-) Does he start to eat
the bones, or does he at least seem like he WANTS to eat the bones? Or
do you think he's trying to avoid eating the bones and wouldn't eat
them if you left them?

You mentioned he does well with whole rabbit. So, how does he approach
those bones? Forgive me if I missed anything. Does he strip all the
meat off the bones and eat those separately?

There are many reasons why you hear "no naked bones." Some people think
soup bones are a meal, but dogs need meat. Lots of the naked bones
that are sold are the big leg bones from cows, etc. and are tooth-
wreckers. Plus, it's just usually not a good use of money to buy bare
bones. Also, fed alone, when a dog is hungry, he's just more likely to
gobble it down stupidly. I think they can also get dried out after
awhile and be more difficult to digest. But if it's an appropriate-
size bone, and part of the whole package/critter and it comes after
some tackling, figuring, and eating/satiation, they just aren't as
excited or stupid. Of course, some dogs will be more careful or dainty
and this isn't an issue.

So, the "bones covered in meat" recommendation is what it sounds like
you're doing (except for turkey necks). How he eats might make it be
harder for you to regulate the meat/bone ratio (which isn't critical,
you just need to know the tolerance of your dog to avoid chronic runny
poops or constipation), but I doubt he's going to choke. I mean, if he
meticulously cleans off the bones, I doubt he'd then try to gulp a
large hunk of bone. I think you've got to give it a try and get over
the fear of the unknown. Find what you think is the safest thing (Ask
for recommendations if you want. Maybe a 1 lb. hunk of pork or lamb
neck with some added meat, or a goat leg/shoulder?) and let him eat
some of the bones next time and tell us how it goes. If it gets down
to a small piece you're afraid of, take it away (trade him for a nice
treat/piece of meat so he doesn't become afraid of you taking his
food). But at least let him get started. I think he'll do great! :-)

Does that help? Feel free to ask any clarifying questions.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "luvmyberner_bernerlove"
<jodycaira@...> wrote:
>> But when I give him say, a goat quarter, over several meals - what
is
> left is a stripped bare skeleton. Again, something that looks to me
> like a hazard. So I take it away and rob him of that important part
of
> the meal.
>
> I read time and time again that it's recommended that a dog should
eat
> bones while covered in lots of meat.
>
> So, separately is okay?
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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10. Bony bunny bits
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:45 pm ((PDT))

I have noticed that both of my dogs will typically vomit up some tiny
bone fragments the day after eating rabbit. This doesn't happen with
any other meals. Anyone else experience this? I'm not concerned, just
curious.
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (1)
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11. Dachsie puppy who is too thin
Posted by: "K Carolyn Ramamurti" lilith23360@yahoo.com lilith23360
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:09 pm ((PDT))

I have two mini doxies I have been raw feeding since they came to live with me at three months. They are now two weeks away from their first birthday.

One is getting too thin for my taste. She eats at least 1/3 more than the other (who is a chunk!), but just doesn't gain weight.

She is otherwise healthy; has recently been checked by the vet and has a glossy coat, bright little eyes and a good energy level.

They get a ton of exercise, which I would not want to curtail....

I feed the "usual" prey model; 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organs. Usual meals for me are beef short-ribs; pork picnic roasts, butt roasts or ribs; lamb ribs or shoulders; beef, pork or chicken livers; game hens (their favorite) or chickens. They occasionally get fish and I just found them some beef heart and tongue.

Any suggestions for a little dachsie who is too thin?

Thanks in advance,

Carolyn in Seattle

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Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: {RawFeeding & Raw Chat}Sharing meat between dogs
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi Brandi,

I think it's best to give each dog their own piece.

Sometimes even a polite dog will try and swallow something to large
if they think another dog is going to get it..........

I have two dogs and give each their own plate, they do move back and
forth between plates, checking each others out before they settle
down to eat and sometimes even exchange meals, lol.....

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...>
wrote:

> I know some of you can throw a hunk of meat to your dogs and they
can
> eat nicely together. Not real sure about mine. However I did find
> out just now that my GS puppy is a very aggressive eater - i gave
Any suggestions? Feed back?
>
> Thanks in advanced
> Brandi
> Bartlesville, Ok
> www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (4)
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