Feed Pets Raw Food: Aug 21, 2007

Tuesday, August 21, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11938

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: freezing meat
From: Olga
1b. Re: freezing meat
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: ANTHONT RODRIGUEZ
2b. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2c. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: johkemp

3.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet (new vet)
From: chaparraltrail

4a. Re: Do I trust the dog? Was: Vet wants low protein diet
From: chaparraltrail

5a. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
From: Olga
5b. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
From: johkemp

6a. Re: Iodine requirments
From: blechatlb@aol.com
6b. Re: Iodine requirments
From: costrowski75
6c. Re: Iodine requirments
From: johkemp
6d. Re: Iodine requirments
From: Sandee Lee

7.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: costrowski75
7.2. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
From: johkemp
8b. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
From: johkemp

9a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litter
From: Michael Moore

10. Hello, I'm new to the group...=)
From: coriowen

11.1. Re: question
From: Katie
11.2. Re: chicken-only diet (was: question)
From: Laurie Swanson
11.3. Re: question
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Duck and organ question
From: mariola9000

13a. Re: Can You Give Too Much Organ Meat?
From: johkemp

14a. Re: traveling with raw/Coleman cooler ?s
From: johkemp

Messages
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1a. Re: freezing meat
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:44 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "heather2449707"
<heather2449707@...> wrote:
>
> Can meat be thawed and then refroze?

Absolutely - I do it myself all the time.

Olga

Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: freezing meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:33 pm ((PDT))

"heather2449707" <heather2449707@...> wrote:>
> Can meat be thawed and then refroze? I can get some really good deals
> on frozen chicken but they need to be cut into smaller pieces. Thanks,
>
*****
You bet!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "ANTHONT RODRIGUEZ" luvthisphysique@yahoo.com luvthisphysique
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:44 pm ((PDT))

before raw he was on timberwolf organics kibble.
expensive!! especially for a college student, geez
lol. well i he would eat some ground beef, and some
pork shoulder. that's really about it. i don't want
him to be thin, i like when he is thick the way he
should be. he looks healthy like that. don't know if
it's the weather, or him just being a brat?? what
should i do??

Anthony Rodriguez
Southern California

>
> In a message dated 8/21/2007 9:05:48 P.M. Eastern
> Standard Time,
> Morledzep@aol.com writes:
>
> so he has not really ate in
> about 5 days or so, just little pieces of food. i am
> confused and i
> don't know what to do?? i don't want him to get thin
> on me, and i
> would appreciate some help and advice that will
> work!!
>
> Anthony,
>
> you need to find out who is feeding your dog.. no
> normal healthy dog will
> starve itself.
>
> either someone is feeding your dog inbetween meals
> or your dog has a medical
> problem and should be seen by a vet.
>
> Catherine R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak
> peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469

Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:41 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/21/2007 7:45:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
luvthisphysique@yahoo.com writes:

don't know if
it's the weather, or him just being a brat?? what
should i do??

Anthony,

offer him the food.. set it down, walk away.. do NOT hover.. do NOT make fuss
over him.

if he hasn't eaten in 20ish minutes, pick up the food and put it away. do
NOT offer him anything else to eat, do NOT give him any treats, or snacks. He
gets NOTHING until his next meal time. no need to make a fuss.. just calmly
pick it up and put it away.

at the next regular meal time, get it out and offer the same food again.

keep doing this until he eats.. a healthy dog will NOT starve itself. and
you are not starving the dog.. you are offering food, he is refusing to eat.

and then the policy, at least for the first few days, should be that you
don't give him anything except food at regular meals times. no treats or snacks.

after a week or so you can start treating him again, but keep it to a
minimum.. dogs that fill up on treats don't eat meals.

watch your neighbors or folks you live with.. i have lots of dogs, and i've
had lots of other dogs.. i've never seen a dog go that long without food unless
they were getting something from someone else.. like a neighbor or a family
member.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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2c. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:43 pm ((PDT))

---

Have you checked his mouth? He may have something caught in his teeth
that is hurting when he chews. I would start there.

If he is not looking lethargic and is still drinking it does sound as
if someone is feeding him. Is there someone nearby who thinks that
dogs need 'a complete and scientifically balanced dog food' to be
healthy? That is probably the culprit.

I hope you get to the bottom of it soon.

Messages in this topic (7)
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3.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet (new vet)
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:45 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, cooniefish@... wrote:
>
> I have looked, but there are so many inferior vets, that I like
to get a
> recommendation. Especially because funds are tight,

I recently made the decision to find a new vet, and think I have
found one that I like. She supports home-cooked meals, b**f, and
prey model raw, but doesn't beat people up who make other choices.
For years she practiced traditional medicine, but her own dog's
illness led her to the holistic approach.

My dog is healthy, so I have only e-mailed and spoken to the office
by telephone. I like what I've heard so far, but have not met her
yet.

Here is her website. If you are in the So Cal area, perhaps she will
be a good match for you.

http://www.foundersvet.com

Lori

Messages in this topic (30)
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4a. Re: Do I trust the dog? Was: Vet wants low protein diet
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:46 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, cooniefish@... wrote:

> I tend to want to trust the dog's cravings despite the advice to
the
> contrary.....

My gut instinct would be to trust the dog...but your best friend will
be knowledge, not our opinions. Seems like you are doing all you can
to make good choices, and asking all the right questions.

Lori

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:46 pm ((PDT))

I have to admit that this is how I started my dogs on raw for the
first few days. But it was only because I was nervous and once I saw
that they had no problems with raw. Most dogs don't have any
digestive problems when switching cold turkey to raw, and if you get
looser stool for a day it's really not the end of the world.

I would suggest that you return that bag of kibble to the store (as
you can, depending on where you purchased it, I've done it back in
kibble days when my dogs reacted badly to it). Or you can donate it
to a shelter or rescue of your choice and earn some good karma.

Olga

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:21 pm ((PDT))

We switched our then 9 week old pup straight over without any problems
at all. The younger you start the better - your pup will learn to chew
everything. Our pup now nine months and despite having very strong
stafford jaws, chews even chicken wings and necks thoroughly. We even
give her tiny bits of things to eat and she still chews it! It can be
quite funny to watch.

I can understand not wanting to waste the food but surely there is a
friend or neighbour that would use it - you know the same ones that
will try to scare you out of your well researched decision :-). If not
the shelter suggestions are good.

Have fun with your new pup!

Jo
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Iodine requirments
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:47 pm ((PDT))

**Everything required is found in the appropriate diet. Kelp is one item I would never recommend using as a supplement since it can inhibit thyroid function.*
------------------------
Sandee,

I contacted Dr. Jean Dodds and asked her about kelp supplementation as I have a hypothyroid dog - she said that kibble fed dogs can be supplemented 3 x a week (because kibble already has a lot of iodine) and raw fed dogs can be given kelp daily...

TracyB

________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (12)
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6b. Re: Iodine requirments
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:42 pm ((PDT))

blechatlb@... wrote:
>
> I contacted Dr. Jean Dodds and asked her about kelp supplementation
as I have a hypothyroid dog - she said that kibble fed dogs can be
supplemented 3 x a week (because kibble already has a lot of iodine)
and raw fed dogs can be given kelp daily...
*****
I know I am not alone in thinking that while Dr. Dodds is quite adept
at interpreting blood she seems pretty dim on appropriate diets. Her
white fish diet is one glaring example.

I would not dissuade someone from using her service for thyroid
management but I would try to persuade them otherwise should they want
to consult her for dietary advice.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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6c. Re: Iodine requirments
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:43 pm ((PDT))

Most people that carry on about carbs, fibre, vitamins and minerals are
basing their dodgy claims on human biology not a dog's.

The use of supplements really worries me. How are people supposed to
know what needs supplementing and by how much? Overdoses can be toxic
so why take the risk when a varied natural diet will provide what the
dog needs anyway.

Messages in this topic (12)
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6d. Re: Iodine requirments
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi Tracy,

Dr. Dodds is *the* expert in thyroid disease and I highly recommend her for
testing and treatment. A nutritionist, she is not! I would not follow her
feeding or supplementation recommendations. She does not understand the
needs of a carnivore (states dogs are omnivores) and does not understand
prey model feeding which makes available all necessary nutrients.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <blechatlb@aol.com>
>
> I contacted Dr. Jean Dodds and asked her about kelp supplementation as I
have a hypothyroid dog - she said that kibble fed dogs can be supplemented 3
x a week (because kibble already has a lot of iodine) and raw fed dogs can
be given kelp daily...

Messages in this topic (12)
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7.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:06 pm ((PDT))

"chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:
>
A raw diet greatly reduces the calories received from
> carbohydrates, as meats contain very little carbohydrates. Whether
or
> not it is higher in protein or higher in fat will depend on the raw
> food given. But the percentage of calories derived from fat +
protein
> will be higher on a meat-fish-poultry-eggs diet than on any other
> options out there.
*****
I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the purpose of the diet
change was to reduce protein, not fat. I quite understand the
difference between protein and fat, and I understand what calories
are, at least in functional lay terms. The assumption (through
misguidance or poor study habits) of "low protein" vets is that "high
protein" damages kidneys. Fat isn't even a talking point, I don't
think.

So forget about fat and forget about calories from any source
including no calories from water. Most people unaware look at dry
protein as being lower than wet protein. And most people who try to
level the playing field insist on removing the water from raw in
order to do so.

I agree that there is no urgency at all to discuss raw protein in dry
terms...but I do believe you wrote that raw has higher protein and I
asked and am still asking compared to what?

Chris O

Messages in this topic (30)
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7.2. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:26 pm ((PDT))

"darkstardog" <darkstardog@...> wrote:
> I'd say the answer is: compared to the standard commercial dog food,
> probably kibble. This is what vets would probably consider normal.
*****
> Whether it is an appropriate diet or not, that doesn't change the fact
> that vets will take that amount as 'normal'.
*****
This doesn't change the fact that raw is not high in protein.

So if you're
> communicating with a vet and you say your raw diet is 'not high' in
> protein, or 'moderately low' in protein, or (for example) 18% in
> protein, the vet may misundrestand how much protein the dog is
> actually getting.
*****
That hardly matters, I'd say, given that his perception is flawed, not
mine.

> Whether you want your vet to be misled is up to you.
*****
Boy, ain't THAT the truth. Scary that we have to worry about our vet's
education.

Especially since the whole thrust of the issue isn't high or low
protein but that high quality protein does not put a burden on a dog's
kidneys. Those who feed kibble would have a significantly harder row
to hoe with regard to the problem of kidney disease.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (30)
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8a. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:21 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ive_anbio10" <ive_anbio10@...>
wrote:
>
> He is a large Yellow lab and is a gulper.

I know of people that have started off feeding frozen meaty bones until
their dogs have learned to chew again. This should help with the
gulping.

I often give my pup frozen bones if I am out for the day - they keep
her occupied for ages.

Messages in this topic (17)
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8b. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:48 pm ((PDT))

I find this guide really handy and 'down to earth'.

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/diet/exp-diet-guide.pdf

It is developed by Dr Tom Lonsdale and I send it to everyone I know
with a new pet.

I don't know how expensive meat is in Canada but in there is no way I
would spend that much in Australia per month. And that is to feed a
16kg stafford pup and three cats.

Go to a wholesale butcher or your local supermarket and look for the
marked down meat and bones. That is the stuff with only a few days
fridge life left on it. It is going home to go into the freezer anyway!

'Ethnic' markets are great for offal and out of the ordinary meat. I
can get goat and rabbit near us.

good luck

Messages in this topic (17)
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9a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litter
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:23 pm ((PDT))

>>Also I now have my first rawfed litter here. They were born Aug. 19th,
six tricolor babies. Their mother has been rawfed since April and the
puppies are all healthy. Is there anything I should NOT fed her while
she's nursing? When should I offer meat to the babies? How should I
offer it? What kind of meat should I offer first, and how often should
I try new meats with them? Is there anything else I should be aware of
with them or their mom?<<

Hi, Laura -- my first weaned to raw litter (Corgis) was born April 22nd. I fed mom Darcy the same as my other dogs. Figured she'd "tell" me if she didn't want a particular item; the only thing she refused was fish (go figure -- pre-pregnancy, fish was her favorite!). I did increase her food and fed her more often.
I started offering chicken (bone-in breasts) to my puppies at 5 wks. of age. They licked at the food at first, but within a few days started to pull off meat (I cut "ribbons" into it to facilitate this). Within a week, they were stripping all the week off the bones; within two weeks, they were working on the bone. It was the most amazing and coolest thing (but I admit to being easily amused!) I've ever seen.
Someone -- perhaps list goddess Jane -- suggested I offer a wide variety to the puppies right away. So, for the boneless meals, within a week, they got pork, beef heart, turkey, venison, elk, and fish. Never a problem.
Good luck with the litter!

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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10. Hello, I'm new to the group...=)
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:24 pm ((PDT))

Hello everyone! I am owned by 4 dogs and they range from little-2
standard Dachshunds to 1 Doberman, to GIANT an English Mastiff. I
have been REALLY thinking about going raw but I have had sooo much
info tossed at me from sooo many different directions that I don't
know where to start or what to do? I live in a VERY small town way
out in NO WHERE East Texas. We live on a ranch so our stores are
VERY limited and the closest big city is Mesquite, Texas and that is
about 50 miles from us. I do have a Super Walmart that is only 15
miles from us. I was reading about raw feeding on a link that I got
from this group and it listed all kinds of meats and organs to feed
but I don't even know where to begin as far as how much? How often?
What kind? Where, so it is not messy? My two Dachshunds are indoor
dogs and I can see that for example if I gave them a chicken back,
that would get really messy, how do you keep it from being a mess? I
also read on this link that dogs a TRUE carnivores so no veggies are
necessary nor any other nutrients just the meats and organs will do,
what do y'all think? The very reputable breeder that I bought my
standard Dachshunds from in Oregon has been feeding raw for over 15
years and she feeds mainly chicken but she also feeds veggies and
Omega 3 fish oils and on occasion she feeds sardines...yuk(as far as
me having to smell them lol). My dogs currently eat kibble morning
7:30am and 5:00pm.
Cori and the gang

Messages in this topic (1)
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11.1. Re: question
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:01 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR POSTS.***

I thought I'd try posting this again . . . maybe it got lost in the internet??

Of all you feed are chicken quarters (assuming you added organ meat), would it be
sufficient (other than lacking variety)?

I realize variety is better . . . but, theoretically, would checken, including organs, be
sufficient?

...katie

Messages in this topic (67)
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11.2. Re: chicken-only diet (was: question)
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi Katie,

I don't have any "facts" about this--haven't heard of any studies on
chicken-only diets (there are hardly any studies on raw, period).
I'm sure there are people who feed their dogs chicken only. It's
better than kibble or canned. But from what I've read, wolves'
primary diet would be more like elk/caribou/venison with maybe some
snacks of mice or fowl or fish when available or when other prey is
scarce. So it makes sense to me that red meat (beef, lamb, pork,
goat, venison, etc.) is probably better for them, and they probably
would be missing quite a bit if they never had any. If you can find
and afford it, I would suggest adding in more variety. If you can't,
just keep looking for more/cheaper sources and add it in as you go.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Katie" <kcrockett@...> wrote:

I realize variety is better . . . but, theoretically, would checken,
including organs, be
> sufficient?

Messages in this topic (67)
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11.3. Re: question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:22 pm ((PDT))

"Katie" <kcrockett@...> wrote:
>> I realize variety is better . . . but, theoretically, would checken,
including organs, be
> sufficient?
*****
Theoretically, no.
Accidentally, yes.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (67)
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12a. Re: Duck and organ question
Posted by: "mariola9000" mariola9000@yahoo.com mariola9000
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:06 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote

www.elkusa.com
>
> It is a small farm in CO and, their animals are grain-fed (I am
bit compromise on this) but ,they carry Goat,Buffalo,Denver deer,and Elk.

> But,if you want rabbit,Hare today gone tomorrow (was it right?) in
PA carry good selection of rabbit.

Yassy,

Thanks for the links. I may try them.

Mariola.

Messages in this topic (11)
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13a. Re: Can You Give Too Much Organ Meat?
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:11 pm ((PDT))

I try to feed offal about three times a fornight. This works out to
about 10% of their food. This is for my dog and three cats.

I buy packs of hearts, tripe, kidney, liver and giblets- then chop and
freeze into bags. Each bag has different ratios of goodies so they are
varied all the time.

Messages in this topic (4)
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14a. Re: traveling with raw/Coleman cooler ?s
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:18 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

When travelling with our pup at nine weeks she needed several feeds
along the way(two days - one night stopover). I froze portions for her
to eat that night and for breakfast and bought her lunch at McDonalds.
I had to convince them to sell me a raw patty but they eventually did.

The frozen bones were still icey cold when I gave them to her so she
played with them for ages but she did eat them. I filled up one litre
plastic bottles and froze them to use as freezer bricks. At the motel
that night I put them back in the freezer and the meat in the fridge.

When we reached our destination I went to the supermarket and bought
her food there.

My father has a car fridge that he uses for long trips - you can get
different sized ones that run off your car battery.

Good luck and have a good holiday!
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11937

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. cocci and a pup new to raw feeding
From: Jennifer

2a. Re: accessing archives (was: Duck and organ question)
From: costrowski75

3. Probiotics, again
From: ptmagi

4.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: darkstardog
4.2. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: costrowski75
4.3. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: Ivette Casiano
4.4. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: chaparraltrail
4.5. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: darkstardog
4.6. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: chaparraltrail
4.7. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: cooniefish@aol.com
4.8. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: Shannon Parker
4.9. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: Sandee Lee

5a. help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: john
5b. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: Morledzep@aol.com
5c. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: cooniefish@aol.com
5d. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: anjumdanielle

6a. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: costrowski75

7a. Transition from kibble to raw
From: ptmagi
7b. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
From: Morledzep@aol.com

8a. freezing meat
From: heather2449707
8b. Re: freezing meat
From: Laurie Swanson

9a. Re: Switching to raw and.....
From: chaparraltrail

10a. Where to buy meat in San Diego,CA
From: Diana Zarate
10b. Re: Where to buy meat in San Diego,CA
From: Morledzep@aol.com

11a. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
From: Olga

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1. cocci and a pup new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Jennifer" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:16 pm ((PDT))

I have a new baby who got cocci and she not eating. I want to get her
on something to help build her immune system up. she ten week old
siberian and weight 9.5lbs. any help would be great our vet got her on
albond, but it seems to be making her hurt more.

jennifer
free spirit kennel of va.

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: accessing archives (was: Duck and organ question)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:23 pm ((PDT))

"Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
> I know
> when Chris gives these instructions, she says to join the group, but
> I thought everyone that posts is a member of the group already?
> Maybe I'm missing something.
*****
The problem is Yahoo views subscription via email as different from
subscription via Yahoogroups. You can (and I wager most people do)
become members of a list without ever becoming a member of Yahoogroups.

If one clicks on the stuff at the bottom of an email message and is not
a Yahoogroup member, one has to "join" yahoogroups before being able to
access the list home page with its file, databases, photos and message
archives.

That's why I say "join the group". You got a list and you got a
group. You can in fact have one without the other.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3. Probiotics, again
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:24 pm ((PDT))

I'm new to the list and have been reading back through recent posts
and ran across a thread on probiotics. Our new puppy is a Boxer and
they're notoriously gassy dogs and we ran across a suggestion on a
Boxer forum to add a tablespoon of fat-free, plain yogurt to the dog's
meals to cut down on the farting. The person who suggested it
credited the probiotics in the yogurt for the "cure." It definitely
seems to be working for us... Atticus still farts, but not nearly as
much, and if we skip the yogurt he farts up a storm!

I suspect that once we complete the transition to raw he may not need
the probiotics, however. Our vet explained that the reason Boxers
pass so much gas is due to their short snouts and taking in a lot of
air with their food. He also said that the larger the kibble, the
more air would be trapped in it and ingested. I'm guessing there's
not a whole lot of air in raw meat and bones, so here's hoping for a
fart-free (or at least fart-reduced) future!

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, jrtsnabc <jrtsnabc@...> wrote:
>
> If she's already on raw, she's on a good, moderately-low protein
>diet!
>

As Lori said, a raw diet is not a moderately-low protein diet. A raw
diet is high protein in the way a vet would look at it. And the lower
the fat, the higher the protein content would need to be.

>
>Once you take away the bone, fat, and water, a raw diet is only about
>10-12% protein. (Someone please correct me if I'm off here.)
>

Once you take away the bone, fat and water, a raw diet is essentially
100% protein.

>
> Because most vets don't research raw diets, they just "assume" that
>it must be high in protein because it's all meat (which, of course,
>it's not). The fact is that it's not high in protein and your vet
>most likely just doesn't want you feeding a raw diet (and he wants to
>make money selling you his crap-in-a-bag).
>

You're making an assumption about what most vets would assume. Maybe
some vets would make that false assumption, but whether they did or
not, a raw diet is still likely to be high in protein according to the
way a vet would look at a diet.
Whether a high protein diet is a problem is a different question. But
one way or another, I think it's
better to be clearly communicating with your vet.

If it were my dog, I'd want a vet who was up-to-date in knowing about
nutritional factors in the various symptoms and types of liver
disease. I think the most up-to-date thinking is that low protein
isn't the right diet in most cases.
I've read that red meat can be more of a problem than white meat,
although the reason has not been clear to me, and maybe that has
changed. But there was some basis for that idea; I wouldn't rule it
out without trying to follow up on it.

Also there is some basis for the idea of giving some carbs with
fermentable fiber that will encourage the growth of some gut bacteria
(oats for instance, or something called lactulose). I only know some
things I've read, and what I remember may not be current. But again,
there was some reason for adding those carbs to the diet of dogs with
certain liver disease symptoms - it was to help remove ammonia or urea
from the blood when the liver was having trouble metabolizing enough.
So I wouldn't rule all carbs out in every situation without trying to
understand the basis for adding them.

Marty

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________

4.2. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:30 pm ((PDT))

"chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:

Despite posts to the contrary,
> raw is high in both fat and protein,
*****
Compared to what?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________

4.3. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:08 pm ((PDT))

Samantha, have you tried this site to find a vet who knows about rawfeeding?

http://www.holisticvetlist.com/

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________

4.4. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@> wrote:
>
> Despite posts to the contrary,
> > raw is high in both fat and protein,
> *****
> Compared to what?
> Chris O

Compared to any food that relies on carbohydrates, or grain-based
proteins. Such as that K-word stuff. Or home-prepared food with
vegetables. A raw diet greatly reduces the calories received from
carbohydrates, as meats contain very little carbohydrates. Whether or
not it is higher in protein or higher in fat will depend on the raw
food given. But the percentage of calories derived from fat + protein
will be higher on a meat-fish-poultry-eggs diet than on any other
options out there.

This is a good thing, not a bad thing. I do not understand why people
try to "prove" it is low protein, via fuzzy math, when the fat and
protein are good for dogs.

Dogs get 0% of their caloric intake from water.

Lori

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________

4.5. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:09 pm ((PDT))

I'd say the answer is: compared to the standard commercial dog food,
probably kibble. This is what vets would probably consider normal.
Whether it is an appropriate diet or not, that doesn't change the fact
that vets will take that amount as 'normal'. So if you're
communicating with a vet and you say your raw diet is 'not high' in
protein, or 'moderately low' in protein, or (for example) 18% in
protein, the vet may misundrestand how much protein the dog is
actually getting.

Whether you want your vet to be misled is up to you.

Marty
>

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________

4.6. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "darkstardog" <darkstardog@...>
wrote:
> If it were my dog, I'd want a vet who was up-to-date in knowing about
> nutritional factors in the various symptoms and types of liver
> disease.
> So I wouldn't rule all carbs out in every situation without trying to
> understand the basis for adding them.

Exactly! Just as my wheelchair-bound human friend was almost killed by
his mother's breast milkdue to his medical condition, perhaps some
canine conditions warrant an adjustment, including foods that would
not be ideal for a normal dog. I do not know what those conditions
might be, because I am not a vet.

This is not heresy, just using the best medical knowledge available,
ideally from a raw-friendly vet, to make the best health care
decisions we can for our pets.

Lori

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________

4.7. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "cooniefish@aol.com" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:14 pm ((PDT))

I have looked, but there are so many inferior vets, that I like to get a
recommendation. Especially because funds are tight,

Thanks
Sam

In a message dated 8/21/2007 9:08:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ivettecasiano@yahoo.com writes:

Samantha, have you tried this site to find a vet who knows about rawfeeding?
_http://www.holistichttp://www.h_ (http://www.holisticvetlist.com/)

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________

4.8. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:28 pm ((PDT))

Hi Samantha,

As I'm sure you've learned as you've been guided towards the archives, and been told by senior raw feeders...Hepatitis is NOT renal failure. Hepatitis is in plain terms an inflammed liver. The function of the liver is to detoxify the body. Being a vet tech (by education, no longer by trade) I understand that vets are only trained to nutritionally treat ailments based on what the dog food companies tell them. Feeding a low protein diet (or what they think is low protein) will make no difference on their liver function. If they are trying to push you to a low-protein kibble diet, then there's your proof that they have NO CLUE what they are talking about. Why would anyone try to convince you that a diet filled with chemicals, preservatives, and god knows what animal parts is better than what you can feed your animals naturally. Do yourself a favour and find a good Holistic vet. You will need a conventional vet for emergencies and routine things like blood work (well,
this is what I require as my holistic vet deals with more chronic issues). If you can't find a holistic vet, then ask around for a vet who can understand the benefit of raw food. I know, hard to find, but if you tell us where you live, someone may be able to recommend a good vet in your area. I personally am very lucky...I have an amazing holistic vet as well as a conventional vet who has no problem with me feeding raw.

Good luck,

Shannon

cooniefish@aol.com wrote:

Hi! You are the first person I have met that also had a dog with hepatitis.
I would love to speak to you more, (On or off list) about your experience and

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Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________

4.9. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

You are right about that...and just because they say they are holistic
doesn't mean they are!

If you want a good vet who does phone consults, try Jeff Feinman....
http://www.homevet.com

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <cooniefish@aol.com>

>
> I have looked, but there are so many inferior vets, that I like to get a
> recommendation. Especially because funds are tight,

Messages in this topic (27)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "john" luvthisphysique@yahoo.com luvthisphysique
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT))

i have an 8 month apbt, who is a big boy. just took him to the vet,
and he weighed in at 90lbs. for about a week or so, he does not touch
his food! he usually eats chicken thighs, and a couple of eggs out of
the week. i noticed the first couple of days he was not touching his
food, so i switched it to some pork, nothing happening! ate a little
bit, that's it!! so what i would do is leave the plate there for about
15 min, and take it away regardless if he ate it or not. that didn't
work, every piece of food was still there. so he has not really ate in
about 5 days or so, just little pieces of food. i am confused and i
don't know what to do?? i don't want him to get thin on me, and i
would appreciate some help and advice that will work!!

Anthony Rodriguez

Southern California

Thank You

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/21/2007 5:35:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
luvthisphysique@yahoo.com writes:

so he has not really ate in
about 5 days or so, just little pieces of food. i am confused and i
don't know what to do?? i don't want him to get thin on me, and i
would appreciate some help and advice that will work!!

Anthony,

you need to find out who is feeding your dog.. no normal healthy dog will
starve itself.

either someone is feeding your dog inbetween meals or your dog has a medical
problem and should be seen by a vet.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "cooniefish@aol.com" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:12 pm ((PDT))

I find myself agreeing. I do a lot of rescue, and take in lots of new dogs
that all get switched to raw. In 11 years I only had one dog starve for 5
days.

You say he is eating little pieces of food. This is good! Like what, for
example?

Thanks
samantha

In a message dated 8/21/2007 9:05:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Morledzep@aol.com writes:

Anthony,

you need to find out who is feeding your dog.. no normal healthy dog will
starve itself.

either someone is feeding your dog inbetween meals or your dog has a medical
problem and should be seen by a vet.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5d. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "anjumdanielle" anjumdanielle@yahoo.com anjumdanielle
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:44 pm ((PDT))

90lbs! I think your apbt is crossed w/ moose! ;) jk. I have an
apbt too & he's given me some hassle from time to time w/ the food.
They just have such a unique personality - they want you to be happy
about it if they're going to be happy about it. You do have to stay
firm though, or he will learn that you will change up the food if at
first he refuses it. I had to coax & encourage my dog at first - he
was just so confused. But once I knew he could eat, I would just
leave the food down & pick it up if not eaten & put it back in the
fridge for the next day. A couple times we've done this for up to 5
days.

Try giving him some extra encouragement, talking real enthusiastic &
such. If he doesn't eat in a set amount of time, try not to show
your frustration at all, & pick up the food & put it away. Go on w/
your day like nothing happened. It's hard, but they pick up on your
emotions so easily.

If he still doesn't eat after a couple days & you're really worried,
you can try some bribe methods. Something like briefly searing the
outside of the meat or pouring something over top of the food. But
really only use that as a last resort, or you may find yourself doing
it longer than you care to.

HTH - Anjum

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "john" <luvthisphysique@...> wrote:
>
> i have an 8 month apbt, who is a big boy. just took him to the vet,
> and he weighed in at 90lbs. for about a week or so, he does not
touch his food!
> Anthony Rodriguez
>
> Southern California
>
> Thank You
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:45 pm ((PDT))

"Peggy" <peggy070605@...> wrote:
I started both of them on raw food today. But
> now I'm questioning if that was wrong, because there was no
transition?
*****
Your do not need to transition your dogs to a raw diet if you take it
nice and slow. If you don't take it nice and slow you don't have to
transition either, but you do have to be prepared to back off and
take things easy if the dog has digestive distress. I suspect a
transition is more for the human's benefit than the dogs.

Also, I heard that the first week, you
> should only give puppies meat, no veggies.
*****
Puppies or dogs, there is no need to feed vegetables. Puppies or
dogs, feeding meat alone is not enough. But since you fed bone-in
chicken and turkey parts you probably know that raw diets require
meat, edible bone and organs. Your choices were sensible, don't
worry about the veggies. Ever.

And, I have a recipe
> that calls for I think it's 2tsp. of Vitamin-C powder to mix in
> w/veggies among other ingredients. Is it okay to just grind-up Vit-
C
> tablets? How many do I give them? They're 500 MG each.
*****
You don't have to give your dogs vitamin C (they make it themselves,
no help needed) and you certainly do not have to do anything to or
with vegetables. Skip that part of your recipe.

What else does it say on that recipe?

Also, did anyone else feel as if they were going to
> vomit the first time they fed their dogs raw food? I felt so
grossed
> out, eck.
*****
No, not at all. I was absolutely relieved that my dog was eating
after two days of not. It has never grossed me out.

You know what grossed me out? Seeing a seething pile of very healthy
maggots atop an opened can of Pedigree dogfood grossed me out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Transition from kibble to raw
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:08 pm ((PDT))

We adopted a Boxer puppy a month ago (he's 3-1/2 months old now) and
have been feeding him the same kibble the breeder had him on. A week
or so ago, I stumbled on to various sites extolling the raw meat &
bones diet and I'm sold. I started out just mixing raw egg with his
kibble... he scarfed it down like it was filet mignon! The next
couple of days, I crumbled up some ground beef on top of his kibble,
and again he practically inhaled it. I picked up a 10 lb. bag of
chicken leg quarters and gave him one for his mid-day meal both
yesterday and today, and am continuing the kibble for his breakfast
and suppertime meals. I'm doing this in the hopes of avoiding the
diarrhea that can come from changing a pup's diet too suddenly, but
also because we still have 3/4 of a 40 lb. bag of kibble and I hate to
see it go to waste. Is there anything inherently wrong with this
approach?

BTW, he was just so cute to watch after he downed his first "raw meaty
bone" yesterday. He fairly pranced around the house and yard, head
held high, obviously thinking to himself "Aaaah, this is the life!"

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:00 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/21/2007 6:09:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ptmagi@gmail.com writes:

I'm doing this in the hopes of avoiding the
diarrhea that can come from changing a pup's diet too suddenly, but
also because we still have 3/4 of a 40 lb. bag of kibble and I hate to
see it go to waste. Is there anything inherently wrong with this
approach?

Deb,

mixing kibble and raw is a recipe for digestive upset.. believe me, i've been
there and done that. and it will NEVER happen again.

i understand not wanting to waste most of a 40lb bag of dog food.. so don't..
donate it to the local animal shelter or all breed rescue.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. freezing meat
Posted by: "heather2449707" heather2449707@yahoo.com heather2449707
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:10 pm ((PDT))

Can meat be thawed and then refroze? I can get some really good deals
on frozen chicken but they need to be cut into smaller pieces. Thanks,
Heather

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: freezing meat
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:27 pm ((PDT))

Yes, Heather, no problem.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "heather2449707"
<heather2449707@...> wrote:
>
> Can meat be thawed and then refroze?

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Switching to raw and.....
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@> wrote:
> >> Nobody is blaming the dog.
> *****
> Baloney they're not.
> Every time a person quits feeding raw because the dog couldn't
handle
> the blame is conveniently, guiltlessly laid on the dog.

Calm down, for heaven sake! How do you know what happens, "every"
time? This is a stereotype, and highly unlikey to be true, "every"
time. But because I am not omniscient, I cannot say that, with
certainty. Neither can you, because you are omniscient, either.

> The question was whether all dogs should be fed raw. I
absolutely say
> yes they should.

...which means (in the context of the example I gave) that you
believe a dog who truly could not digest raw food should die, which
would be nature's way of handling such a digestive anomaly.

My human friend would have died, had his parents not immediately
stopped giving him human food which would under most circumstances
have been the best. Had they rigidly stuck to the "natural" path,
Jared would be dead. I prefer Jared alive.

Your statements about raw being appropriate are *generally* truy,
but the question was not about generalities, but rather if it is
*ever* appropriate to feed other than raw.

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion, and perhaps dogs and
humans as species would be better off if we let the weak die off,
and not breed.

But as the parent of three disabled children, I have a different
take on the matter, for dogs as well as humans.

Lori
~who believes in raw feeding, but would not sacrifice my dog's life
for the "cause" if there were true medical contraindications

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Where to buy meat in San Diego,CA
Posted by: "Diana Zarate" zarated5@sbcglobal.net bulliegirl55
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:26 pm ((PDT))

Hello, does anyone know where I can find good meat reasonably priced
in the San Diego area? Thanks for your input :)

Diana & Jade

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Where to buy meat in San Diego,CA
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:29 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/21/2007 6:26:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
zarated5@sbcglobal.net writes:

Hello, does anyone know where I can find good meat reasonably priced
in the San Diego area? Thanks for your input :)

socalbarf.com.. read the FAQ page.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:44 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
> Where ya been?

Been busy buying the pups a house with a yard. Sometimes life just
gets in the way. ;)

Olga

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11936

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: chaparraltrail
1b. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: cooniefish@aol.com
1d. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: chaparraltrail
1e. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: cooniefish@aol.com
1f. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: Sandee Lee
1g. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: cmhausrath
1h. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: cooniefish@aol.com

2a. Re: Need reassurance
From: cmhausrath

3a. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
From: cmhausrath
3b. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: pork country style ribs (was: shopping the ads)
From: Laurie Swanson

5a. Back to raw
From: Giselle
5b. Re: Back to raw
From: Halo Harris

6a. If it's not one thing, it's another!
From: Sonja
6b. Re: If it's not one thing, it's another!
From: Giselle

7a. New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: Peggy
7b. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Re: Stinky chicken
From: Ivette Casiano

9a. Re: Duck and organ question
From: Yasuko herron

10. Do I trust the dog? Was: Vet wants low protein diet
From: cooniefish@aol.com

11a. Re: losing hair
From: scarebetty
11b. Re: losing hair
From: Giselle

12a. Re: Switching to raw and.....
From: costrowski75
12b. Re: Switching to raw and.....
From: Giselle

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:24 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, cooniefish@... wrote:
> You may need to reduce the fat content, but other than that, for the
> health of your pet, by all means continue your raw diet.
>
> BTW, raw is high moisture, not high protein.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang

If you reduce the fat, hypothetically to zero, what is left, other
than protein and a small amount of carbohydrate in the organ meats?

A raw fed dog needs less drinking water than kibble fed, because of
the moisture in the meat. This has nothing to do with the percentage
of nutrients derived from protein, fat, etc.

Lori

Messages in this topic (18)
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1b. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:59 pm ((PDT))

Reduced protein is not appropriate for renal disease, not in humans or dogs.
But we are discussing liver failure, not renal failure.

Both of these issues have been discussed frequently on this list by
competent professionals sighting up to date studies.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@yahoo.com>

This is an instance where you really need to talk
to a competent professional. Renal disease can be deadly, and
certainly for a human, reduced protein, and even reduced liquid, is
appropriate.

Messages in this topic (18)
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1c. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "cooniefish@aol.com" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:44 pm ((PDT))

Does anyone know a good vet? Maybe one that will do a phone consult?

Thanks

Samantha

In a message dated 8/21/2007 5:22:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
chaparraltrail@yahoo.com writes:

I just hope that, somehow, you cross paths with a competent vet who
also strongly supports raw feeding. That's where I think you will
find the best answers.

Lori
~who wishes the best for you and your dog

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (18)
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1d. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:45 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
> But we are discussing liver failure, not renal failure.
>

Yes, I realized after posting. The guide dog we raised died at 8 from
kidney failure, and I subsituted, thinking of him. (Also case-in-point
at my own expense why posts on a list do not substitute for medical
advice.)

> Both of these issues have been discussed frequently on this list by
> competent professionals sighting up to date studies.

But those professionals are not the ones treating the dog. They will
not be able to give case-specific medical advice. Meanwhile, if the
treating vet is firmly against feeding raw, or unfamiliar with raw, he
will not be able to advise in this very important health matter.

Not all places have raw-friendly vets to choose from, and that is the
real problem here, IMO.

Lori

Messages in this topic (18)
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1e. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "cooniefish@aol.com" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:46 pm ((PDT))

Could you please let me know how I would go about finding these past
discussions? What keyword would I use? Is there a file?

Thanks
Samantha

In a message dated 8/21/2007 6:00:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
rlee@plix.com writes:

Reduced protein is not appropriate for renal disease, not in humans or dogs.
But we are discussing liver failure, not renal failure.

Both of these issues have been discussed frequently on this list by
competent professionals sighting up to date studies.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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1f. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:55 pm ((PDT))

Samantha,

If you are receiving individual emails, just scroll down to the bottom of
any message and click on "messages". Then do a search on liver disease.

Otherwise, go to the list homepage, click on messages and do the same thing.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <cooniefish@aol.com>

>
> Could you please let me know how I would go about finding these past
> discussions? What keyword would I use? Is there a file?

Messages in this topic (18)
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1g. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))

cooniefish@... wrote:

> Could you please let me know how I would go about finding these past
> discussions? What keyword would I use? Is there a file?

Okay, first, you have to be reading messages on the website to search
the archives. (But they're there, and they go back something like
130,000 messages by now.) Go to

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/messages

Once you're there, you'll see a search box at the top. You can use
that, as is, and can search for specific words (like "renal"
or "protein") or combinations of words ("low protein" in quotes will
get that phrase, or you can do "protein & kidney" to find messages with
both words).

Better yet, you can click on the "advanced" link next to the search
box, and can look for messages within a date range, or by a certain
author. The search word function works the same on the advanced search.

Happy hunting!

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (18)
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1h. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "cooniefish@aol.com" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:57 pm ((PDT))

thank you! Reading now!

Samantha

In a message dated 8/21/2007 7:04:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
cmhausrath@yahoo.com writes:

Okay, first, you have to be reading messages on the website to search
the archives. (But they're there, and they go back something like
130,000 messages by now.) Go to
_http://groups.http://grohttp://groups.(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/messages)

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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2a. Re: Need reassurance
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:31 pm ((PDT))

"Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...> wrote:

> I noticed that they had packaged a whole chicken
> already cut up so I got all of them I could - got more thighs and
drumstick

I know you've gotten lots of advice, so I'm just backtracking to
comment on a couple of your purchases. When your money has
absolutely got to go just as far as you can make it go, you probably
can't afford either to be driving around to different stores or to be
buying products that have been pre-chopped for you. I *always* find
that a whole chicken is cheaper than a "whole" cut up chicken, and
it's usually also cheaper than any of the component parts like thighs
& drumsticks. So call different stores first -- unless you're going
to where you usually shop to buy all your people-food as well -- to
find out who's got the best deal on, say, just whole chickens.
Variety doesn't need to be a concern yet -- just price a couple
things, find out what's most affordable, and go with that.

> Well, I ran out of meat and payday wasn't here yet, so
> there were a coupld of days that they didn't get anything.

If it were me, just starting out with raw, I'd rather feed less every
day than not feed at all for several days. JMO.

> I got several whole chickens, I got several cornish hens

Again, cornish hens aren't going to be in your budget, most likely.
Remember to watch the price per pound very closely!! Those little
things look inexpensive, relatively, but they're tiny. Your dollars
will go a lot farther with just straight chicken. (Or turkey, or
pork -- those three tend to stay pretty inexpensive, year-round.)

> and some ground Turkey - and I thought if they were doing good
> with that I could start out with some pork so I got some pork loin
top loin
> boneless, and some Pork Shoulder Blade.

Again, ground meats aren't usually the cheapest. Pork loin, too,
tends toward high-end -- look instead for pork shoulders (sometimes
called picnics, or fresh hams, or butt roasts) or blade roasts.

Variety, really, can wait until your financial situation frees up a
little. Feeding a consistent, but limited, raw diet is MUCH better
than feeding on-again-off-again raw, or not being able to feed as
much as your dogs need.

Feeding raw CAN, most definitely, be done on a budget. You'll have
to work harder, both in sourcing where to buy and in "prep," such as
it is (cutting up chickens instead of buying pre-cut), but it can be
done. Good luck!

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (11)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:36 pm ((PDT))

"ive_anbio10" <ive_anbio10@...> wrote:

> Anyone have any suggestions about odd
> smelling meat? To feed or not to feed is my question?

My dog LOVES stinky meat. The older, the better, as far as he's
concerned. I buy once a week, and leave a full week's worth of food in
the fridge, so that plenty of it will have gone overdate & gotten good
& stinky by the time I feed it. I have fed stuff that I couldn't bear
to stay in the kitchen with, but Griff just chomps it down with a big
doggy grin on his face.

I do NOT accept kisses after gross meals, though. Blech.

-- sandy & griffin (but mom, it's delicious that way!)

Messages in this topic (14)
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3b. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:46 pm ((PDT))

"Olga" <olga.drozd@...> wrote:
>
> It's good to be back.
*****
Hoky smoke, Olga, I figured you lost and gone forever. Where ya been?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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4a. Re: pork country style ribs (was: shopping the ads)
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

Hi Lynda,

Those are good if you de-bone them. The bones are too small for most
dogs, and cut into sharp, pointy pieces--could be a choking/poking
hazard. :-)

Great to hear your dogs are doing well!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:
i see where i can get country style ribs pork shoulder for
> a buck a pound. that is a good price. is that something i want to
> buy for my two danes?

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Back to raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:50 pm ((PDT))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloat
TC
Giselle

> <<...Now with this gastric torsion...>>
>
> What is a gastric torsion?
>
>
> Ivette Casiano
> "Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Back to raw
Posted by: "Halo Harris" h.halo@yahoo.com h.halo
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:44 pm ((PDT))

Gastric torsion is another name for bloat.
Halo

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Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. If it's not one thing, it's another!
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:44 pm ((PDT))

So far the only protein we've been able to feed Kodie is turkey. We've tried chicken and lamb and had severe reactions to both. She seems to be OK with fish oil caps. Since turkey organs are hard to come by, she's been getting insufficient amounts of organ meat since May. Since I know she NEEDS organs, I fed her chicken liver last week, and now we're dealing with more flare ups. I usually like to wait for these flare-ups to subside before throwing a new protein at her. Once her current issue heals a little, I have duck and beef ready to go (will probably try the duck first). Next month I'm breaking down and buying a 40lbs case of turkey liver since I can't find it in smaller amounts....(until November!!).

Now for the kicker....about 2 years ago Kodie had surgery for elbow dysplasia. In the past year, she's been pulling up her leg and screaming as if she stepped on a bee. It happened maybe twice prior to raw. Now, she's doing it consistently, but the bizarre thing is that it comes on as quickly as it goes. There's never a limp...either she's three legging it or walking around like nothing happened. Sometimes it lasts a minute, sometimes it lasts a day. We took her to the specialist who did the surgery, and all tests and x-rays were fine. My husband is thinking it's something that I am or am not feeding her (but he's also willing to accept that it's just coincidence). I just need to know if anyone else had ever experienced this with their dog (raw fed or not...) and how should I handle the lack-of-organs issue? Is it better to feed chicken liver and have her react to it or is it better to wait until I can find something she tolerates?

We HAVE seen positive things come out of raw feeding....she's licking her paws less when we don't feed her chicken or lamb, her teeth went from a dull yellow to a gleaming white, her breath doesn't knock you dead anymore, and overall she seems better.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: If it's not one thing, it's another!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:00 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Sonja!
Sounds like an intermittent nerve pinch to me. I've had a
lower back disc problem since my early 20s and if I turn a certain way
carelessly, especially while carrying something in one hand as opposed
to with both hands balanced in front of me, I will get a quick flash
of pain down my left leg. It only happens occasionally and quickly,
happens and is gone in a second.

Have you considered pork? Pork bones are pretty soft, its easy to
feed, and usually pretty cheap. You can get organs, too. Heart,
kidney, liver, spleen, sweet breads.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> So far the only protein we've been able to feed Kodie is turkey.
We've tried chicken and lamb and had severe reactions to both. She
seems to be OK with fish oil caps. Since turkey organs are hard to
come by, she's been getting insufficient amounts of organ meat since
May. Since I know she NEEDS organs, I fed her chicken liver last week,
and now we're dealing with more flare ups. I usually like to wait for
these flare-ups to subside before throwing a new protein at her. Once
her current issue heals a little, I have duck and beef ready to go
(will probably try the duck first). Next month I'm breaking down and
buying a 40lbs case of turkey liver since I can't find it in smaller
amounts....(until November!!).
>
> Now for the kicker....about 2 years ago Kodie had surgery for elbow
dysplasia. In the past year, she's been pulling up her leg and
screaming as if she stepped on a bee. It happened maybe twice prior to
raw. Now, she's doing it consistently, but the bizarre thing is that
it comes on as quickly as it goes. There's never a limp...either she's
three legging it or walking around like nothing happened. Sometimes it
lasts a minute, sometimes it lasts a day. We took her to the
specialist who did the surgery, and all tests and x-rays were fine. My
husband is thinking it's something that I am or am not feeding her
(but he's also willing to accept that it's just coincidence). I just
need to know if anyone else had ever experienced this with their dog
(raw fed or not...) and how should I handle the lack-of-organs issue?
Is it better to feed chicken liver and have her react to it or is it
better to wait until I can find something she tolerates?
>
> We HAVE seen positive things come out of raw feeding....she's
licking her paws less when we don't feed her chicken or lamb, her
teeth went from a dull yellow to a gleaming white, her breath doesn't
knock you dead anymore, and overall she seems better.
>
>
> Sonja
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "Peggy" peggy070605@sbcglobal.net speakingforfurry
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:46 pm ((PDT))

Hi! My name is Peg, I have 2 dogs. Chuy is a 7 m/o Lab/Pit male, and
Bella is a 4 m/o Min-Pin/Chi female. Chuy weighs roughly 60lbs, and
Bella weighs almost 6. I started both of them on raw food today. But
now I'm questioning if that was wrong, because there was no transition?
Nothing has happened, I gave them chicken legs and backs, and Chuy also
got a Turkey Drumstick. In the PM, I gave them ground beef. They
reacted good to it so far. Also, I heard that the first week, you
should only give puppies meat, no veggies. Is that true? (Day 1 was all
meat, but what about the other 6 upcoming days?) And, I have a recipe
that calls for I think it's 2tsp. of Vitamin-C powder to mix in
w/veggies among other ingredients. Is it okay to just grind-up Vit-C
tablets? How many do I give them? They're 500 MG each. I read on a
website that it's okay, but I want to make sure before I do that. Any
extra info you guys can provide would be most helpful and
appreciated!!! Also, did anyone else feel as if they were going to
vomit the first time they fed their dogs raw food? I felt so grossed
out, eck. My hubby was just fine with it , but not me. Ew. Maybe it'll
be better tomorrow. =)

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:05 pm ((PDT))

Peg,

What do you mean there was no transition?

You may run into problems by feeding too much variety too quickly. Best to
feed one protein source for a week or so until they adjust. Most people
begin with chicken as it is economical, easy to digest and readily
available.

You don't need any recipes or veggies ever.....supplements only when
necessary. Just concentrate on the required foods of meat (lots of it), a
little bone and organs.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Peggy" <peggy070605@sbcglobal.net>

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Stinky chicken
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:46 pm ((PDT))

<<...I'd try it once to see if the dog can tolerate it. ..>>

I still have some of that stinky chicken in the freezer. Someone said I should get him back to normal then try it again to see if it really was that chicken.
I agree about the buried food in the wild, can't smell nice and they still eat it but we don't know if they have cannon butt after that either. They're in the wild, they can do that there and not have their masters turn their noses up at it.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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9a. Re: Duck and organ question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:46 pm ((PDT))

>BTW -where do you find meat like elk?

Hi,glad to hear my advise helped you even a bit. Well,elk is bigger deer than Denver Deer I hear and, I got it from Colorado.It was very expensive shipping cost,but it was worth it.

www.elkusa.com

It is a small farm in CO and, their animals are grain-fed (I am bit compromise on this) but ,they carry Goat,Buffalo,Denver deer,and Elk.

Some of my Goat and Elk and Buffalo are from them.

I plan to buy from them maybe once a year or two to stock up.

> I have yet to find sources for venison and rabbit. The only rabbits I found were at Lunardi's >$7.99 per pound!

I think Venison are same to Elk. am I wrong? As for rabbit,I got $3/lb from pepspoultry in PA,but I don't like the way of his business although products quality is quite good,and this guy still have my pending order for 2 months or more.I gave up (lucky for me hedid not hold my money yet.)and,I am not going to order anything from him any more.

But,if you want rabbit,Hare today gone tomorrow (was it right?) in PA carry good selection of rabbit. It just that it seems one of those things that dog likes it or hate it. My dog.. she ate it,but had hard time finishing off each time.You may want to see if you want to take a risk or not.

Duck I got was from Super Giant,normal store.But I was bit shocked to find that Shoppers carried same brand Duck almost half the price!! I think if you go to Asian store,you are getting it cheaper than other American grocery store,I think.

I kind of write out on paper waht I like to feed when I started this feeding.and I stocked up freezer full.

so,I don't go shopping for my dog all the time.I decided to order needed thing maybe 1 time in 6 month to a year or maybe two.

So,I did not finish up chicken I got and still sitting in the freezer,still lamb in frezer etc..

I kind of decided myself how and what to feed.

Like.. if i decided feeding Chicken,Beef,pork only for example.I stock up all I need for that protins. Then,I introduce chicken and to Beef and to Pork and this is round 1.
And then,I go back to chicken again after 3 protin feeding so,I don't finish chicken all at once.

This is just me.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (9)
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10. Do I trust the dog? Was: Vet wants low protein diet
Posted by: "cooniefish@aol.com" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:58 pm ((PDT))

From what I am reading, dogs with liver disease should not be eating red
meat...BUT one of the first things I noticed with this dog (who eats like a lab)
was that she suddenly no longer wanted chicken at all! ut she was crazy for
beef. I tend to want to trust the dog's cravings despite the advice to the
contrary.....

Thanks
samantha

In a message dated 8/21/2007 7:04:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
cmhausrath@yahoo.com writes:

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: losing hair
Posted by: "scarebetty" scarebetty@yahoo.com scarebetty
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:58 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "scarebetty" <scarebetty@...> wrote:
>
> I switched my female to raw when she was about a month into her
> pregnancy. She made the change with very little problem. Her pups
> are now 5 weeks old, so she has been on raw for about 4 months now.
> She is shedding a lot, not just individual hairs, but clumps in a
> couple of spots. Along with the shedding she also has a lot of
> dander. Where the hair is coming out in clumps, there is a scaling
> that I would call exema. I feed her a lot of chicken, some pork, very
> little beef. I'm trying to figure out if the hair loss is due to her
> hormone changes-but dont think that the dermatitis could be due to
> that. Just not sure as to what is causing it. Maybe a chicken
> allergy? She doesnt scratch much. Maybe someone can help me. She
> had a beautiful coat before I switched her-not saying that the raw
> isnt good for her, I know it is, just wonder what to do.
> Betty
>
Just wanted to update on Lucy's condition- She is doing great now!
I wanted to thank Giselle and Pamela for their replies. I think both
posts helped. I bathed her and have been brushing her although not a
lot anymore. She is still losing hair, but it is her gray undercoat
and most of it is gone. I am not giving her as much chicken - have
spread out on protein sources. Anyway, her coat was always pretty,
but the new coat is absolutely beautiful. Should speak well for her
raw diet. Her pups have done wonderful on the raw. At first it was a
little scary, but they have handled everything just fine.

Thanks again for the help,
Betty

Messages in this topic (11)
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11b. Re: losing hair
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:09 pm ((PDT))

Pictures, we want pictures!!!!!
; )
YQW, Betty!
Wait until her winter coat comes in : )
Thanks very much for the update.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Just wanted to update on Lucy's condition- She is doing great now!
> I wanted to thank Giselle and Pamela for their replies. I think both
> posts helped. I bathed her and have been brushing her although not a
> lot anymore. She is still losing hair, but it is her gray undercoat
> and most of it is gone. I am not giving her as much chicken - have
> spread out on protein sources. Anyway, her coat was always pretty,
> but the new coat is absolutely beautiful. Should speak well for her
> raw diet. Her pups have done wonderful on the raw. At first it was a
> little scary, but they have handled everything just fine.
>
> Thanks again for the help,
> Betty
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: Switching to raw and.....
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:01 pm ((PDT))

"chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:
>> Nobody is blaming the dog.
*****
Baloney they're not.
Every time a person quits feeding raw because the dog couldn't handle
the blame is conveniently, guiltlessly laid on the dog. Oh gosh, the
human did everything the human could but heck, the dog just didn't
respond.

I would argue the human didn't do everything.

Now, I would also agree that the human truly believes no more could be
done; or could be if the dominoes had fallen a different way, or that
extenuating circumstances did not permit a particular action to occur
(which is what I meant when I said life doesn't always go where we want
it to go).

The question was whether all dogs should be fed raw. I absolutely say
yes they should. The extent to which "should" happens is something
else entirely though, and I've no doubt that everyone who doesn't feed
raw has ample justification why not.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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12b. Re: Switching to raw and.....
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:13 pm ((PDT))

Amen and Hallelujah, sister!
G

> *****
> Baloney they're not.
> Every time a person quits feeding raw because the dog couldn't handle it
> the blame is conveniently, guiltlessly laid on the dog. Oh gosh, the
> human did everything the human could but heck, the dog just didn't
> respond.
>
> I would argue the human didn't do everything.
>
> Now, I would also agree that the human truly believes no more could be
> done; or could be if the dominoes had fallen a different way, or that
> extenuating circumstances did not permit a particular action to occur
> (which is what I meant when I said life doesn't always go where we want
> it to go).
>
> The question was whether all dogs should be fed raw. I absolutely say
> yes they should. The extent to which "should" happens is something
> else entirely though, and I've no doubt that everyone who doesn't feed
> raw has ample justification why not.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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