[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11938

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: freezing meat
From: Olga
1b. Re: freezing meat
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: ANTHONT RODRIGUEZ
2b. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2c. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: johkemp

3.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet (new vet)
From: chaparraltrail

4a. Re: Do I trust the dog? Was: Vet wants low protein diet
From: chaparraltrail

5a. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
From: Olga
5b. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
From: johkemp

6a. Re: Iodine requirments
From: blechatlb@aol.com
6b. Re: Iodine requirments
From: costrowski75
6c. Re: Iodine requirments
From: johkemp
6d. Re: Iodine requirments
From: Sandee Lee

7.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: costrowski75
7.2. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
From: johkemp
8b. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
From: johkemp

9a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litter
From: Michael Moore

10. Hello, I'm new to the group...=)
From: coriowen

11.1. Re: question
From: Katie
11.2. Re: chicken-only diet (was: question)
From: Laurie Swanson
11.3. Re: question
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Duck and organ question
From: mariola9000

13a. Re: Can You Give Too Much Organ Meat?
From: johkemp

14a. Re: traveling with raw/Coleman cooler ?s
From: johkemp

Messages
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1a. Re: freezing meat
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:44 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "heather2449707"
<heather2449707@...> wrote:
>
> Can meat be thawed and then refroze?

Absolutely - I do it myself all the time.

Olga

Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: freezing meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:33 pm ((PDT))

"heather2449707" <heather2449707@...> wrote:>
> Can meat be thawed and then refroze? I can get some really good deals
> on frozen chicken but they need to be cut into smaller pieces. Thanks,
>
*****
You bet!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "ANTHONT RODRIGUEZ" luvthisphysique@yahoo.com luvthisphysique
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:44 pm ((PDT))

before raw he was on timberwolf organics kibble.
expensive!! especially for a college student, geez
lol. well i he would eat some ground beef, and some
pork shoulder. that's really about it. i don't want
him to be thin, i like when he is thick the way he
should be. he looks healthy like that. don't know if
it's the weather, or him just being a brat?? what
should i do??

Anthony Rodriguez
Southern California

>
> In a message dated 8/21/2007 9:05:48 P.M. Eastern
> Standard Time,
> Morledzep@aol.com writes:
>
> so he has not really ate in
> about 5 days or so, just little pieces of food. i am
> confused and i
> don't know what to do?? i don't want him to get thin
> on me, and i
> would appreciate some help and advice that will
> work!!
>
> Anthony,
>
> you need to find out who is feeding your dog.. no
> normal healthy dog will
> starve itself.
>
> either someone is feeding your dog inbetween meals
> or your dog has a medical
> problem and should be seen by a vet.
>
> Catherine R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak
> peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
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Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:41 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/21/2007 7:45:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
luvthisphysique@yahoo.com writes:

don't know if
it's the weather, or him just being a brat?? what
should i do??

Anthony,

offer him the food.. set it down, walk away.. do NOT hover.. do NOT make fuss
over him.

if he hasn't eaten in 20ish minutes, pick up the food and put it away. do
NOT offer him anything else to eat, do NOT give him any treats, or snacks. He
gets NOTHING until his next meal time. no need to make a fuss.. just calmly
pick it up and put it away.

at the next regular meal time, get it out and offer the same food again.

keep doing this until he eats.. a healthy dog will NOT starve itself. and
you are not starving the dog.. you are offering food, he is refusing to eat.

and then the policy, at least for the first few days, should be that you
don't give him anything except food at regular meals times. no treats or snacks.

after a week or so you can start treating him again, but keep it to a
minimum.. dogs that fill up on treats don't eat meals.

watch your neighbors or folks you live with.. i have lots of dogs, and i've
had lots of other dogs.. i've never seen a dog go that long without food unless
they were getting something from someone else.. like a neighbor or a family
member.

Catherine R.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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2c. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:43 pm ((PDT))

---

Have you checked his mouth? He may have something caught in his teeth
that is hurting when he chews. I would start there.

If he is not looking lethargic and is still drinking it does sound as
if someone is feeding him. Is there someone nearby who thinks that
dogs need 'a complete and scientifically balanced dog food' to be
healthy? That is probably the culprit.

I hope you get to the bottom of it soon.

Jo

Messages in this topic (7)
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3.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet (new vet)
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:45 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, cooniefish@... wrote:
>
> I have looked, but there are so many inferior vets, that I like
to get a
> recommendation. Especially because funds are tight,

I recently made the decision to find a new vet, and think I have
found one that I like. She supports home-cooked meals, b**f, and
prey model raw, but doesn't beat people up who make other choices.
For years she practiced traditional medicine, but her own dog's
illness led her to the holistic approach.

My dog is healthy, so I have only e-mailed and spoken to the office
by telephone. I like what I've heard so far, but have not met her
yet.

Here is her website. If you are in the So Cal area, perhaps she will
be a good match for you.

http://www.foundersvet.com

Lori

Messages in this topic (30)
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4a. Re: Do I trust the dog? Was: Vet wants low protein diet
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:46 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, cooniefish@... wrote:

> I tend to want to trust the dog's cravings despite the advice to
the
> contrary.....

My gut instinct would be to trust the dog...but your best friend will
be knowledge, not our opinions. Seems like you are doing all you can
to make good choices, and asking all the right questions.

Lori

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:46 pm ((PDT))

I have to admit that this is how I started my dogs on raw for the
first few days. But it was only because I was nervous and once I saw
that they had no problems with raw. Most dogs don't have any
digestive problems when switching cold turkey to raw, and if you get
looser stool for a day it's really not the end of the world.

I would suggest that you return that bag of kibble to the store (as
you can, depending on where you purchased it, I've done it back in
kibble days when my dogs reacted badly to it). Or you can donate it
to a shelter or rescue of your choice and earn some good karma.

Olga

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:21 pm ((PDT))

We switched our then 9 week old pup straight over without any problems
at all. The younger you start the better - your pup will learn to chew
everything. Our pup now nine months and despite having very strong
stafford jaws, chews even chicken wings and necks thoroughly. We even
give her tiny bits of things to eat and she still chews it! It can be
quite funny to watch.

I can understand not wanting to waste the food but surely there is a
friend or neighbour that would use it - you know the same ones that
will try to scare you out of your well researched decision :-). If not
the shelter suggestions are good.

Have fun with your new pup!

Jo
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Iodine requirments
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:47 pm ((PDT))

**Everything required is found in the appropriate diet. Kelp is one item I would never recommend using as a supplement since it can inhibit thyroid function.*
------------------------
Sandee,

I contacted Dr. Jean Dodds and asked her about kelp supplementation as I have a hypothyroid dog - she said that kibble fed dogs can be supplemented 3 x a week (because kibble already has a lot of iodine) and raw fed dogs can be given kelp daily...

TracyB

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Messages in this topic (12)
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6b. Re: Iodine requirments
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:42 pm ((PDT))

blechatlb@... wrote:
>
> I contacted Dr. Jean Dodds and asked her about kelp supplementation
as I have a hypothyroid dog - she said that kibble fed dogs can be
supplemented 3 x a week (because kibble already has a lot of iodine)
and raw fed dogs can be given kelp daily...
*****
I know I am not alone in thinking that while Dr. Dodds is quite adept
at interpreting blood she seems pretty dim on appropriate diets. Her
white fish diet is one glaring example.

I would not dissuade someone from using her service for thyroid
management but I would try to persuade them otherwise should they want
to consult her for dietary advice.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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6c. Re: Iodine requirments
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:43 pm ((PDT))

Most people that carry on about carbs, fibre, vitamins and minerals are
basing their dodgy claims on human biology not a dog's.

The use of supplements really worries me. How are people supposed to
know what needs supplementing and by how much? Overdoses can be toxic
so why take the risk when a varied natural diet will provide what the
dog needs anyway.

Jo

Messages in this topic (12)
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6d. Re: Iodine requirments
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi Tracy,

Dr. Dodds is *the* expert in thyroid disease and I highly recommend her for
testing and treatment. A nutritionist, she is not! I would not follow her
feeding or supplementation recommendations. She does not understand the
needs of a carnivore (states dogs are omnivores) and does not understand
prey model feeding which makes available all necessary nutrients.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <blechatlb@aol.com>
>
> I contacted Dr. Jean Dodds and asked her about kelp supplementation as I
have a hypothyroid dog - she said that kibble fed dogs can be supplemented 3
x a week (because kibble already has a lot of iodine) and raw fed dogs can
be given kelp daily...

Messages in this topic (12)
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7.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:06 pm ((PDT))

"chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:
>
A raw diet greatly reduces the calories received from
> carbohydrates, as meats contain very little carbohydrates. Whether
or
> not it is higher in protein or higher in fat will depend on the raw
> food given. But the percentage of calories derived from fat +
protein
> will be higher on a meat-fish-poultry-eggs diet than on any other
> options out there.
*****
I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the purpose of the diet
change was to reduce protein, not fat. I quite understand the
difference between protein and fat, and I understand what calories
are, at least in functional lay terms. The assumption (through
misguidance or poor study habits) of "low protein" vets is that "high
protein" damages kidneys. Fat isn't even a talking point, I don't
think.

So forget about fat and forget about calories from any source
including no calories from water. Most people unaware look at dry
protein as being lower than wet protein. And most people who try to
level the playing field insist on removing the water from raw in
order to do so.

I agree that there is no urgency at all to discuss raw protein in dry
terms...but I do believe you wrote that raw has higher protein and I
asked and am still asking compared to what?

Chris O

Messages in this topic (30)
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7.2. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:26 pm ((PDT))

"darkstardog" <darkstardog@...> wrote:
> I'd say the answer is: compared to the standard commercial dog food,
> probably kibble. This is what vets would probably consider normal.
*****
> Whether it is an appropriate diet or not, that doesn't change the fact
> that vets will take that amount as 'normal'.
*****
This doesn't change the fact that raw is not high in protein.

So if you're
> communicating with a vet and you say your raw diet is 'not high' in
> protein, or 'moderately low' in protein, or (for example) 18% in
> protein, the vet may misundrestand how much protein the dog is
> actually getting.
*****
That hardly matters, I'd say, given that his perception is flawed, not
mine.

> Whether you want your vet to be misled is up to you.
*****
Boy, ain't THAT the truth. Scary that we have to worry about our vet's
education.

Especially since the whole thrust of the issue isn't high or low
protein but that high quality protein does not put a burden on a dog's
kidneys. Those who feed kibble would have a significantly harder row
to hoe with regard to the problem of kidney disease.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (30)
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8a. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:21 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ive_anbio10" <ive_anbio10@...>
wrote:
>
> He is a large Yellow lab and is a gulper.

I know of people that have started off feeding frozen meaty bones until
their dogs have learned to chew again. This should help with the
gulping.

I often give my pup frozen bones if I am out for the day - they keep
her occupied for ages.

Jo

Messages in this topic (17)
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8b. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:48 pm ((PDT))

I find this guide really handy and 'down to earth'.

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/diet/exp-diet-guide.pdf

It is developed by Dr Tom Lonsdale and I send it to everyone I know
with a new pet.

I don't know how expensive meat is in Canada but in there is no way I
would spend that much in Australia per month. And that is to feed a
16kg stafford pup and three cats.

Go to a wholesale butcher or your local supermarket and look for the
marked down meat and bones. That is the stuff with only a few days
fridge life left on it. It is going home to go into the freezer anyway!

'Ethnic' markets are great for offal and out of the ordinary meat. I
can get goat and rabbit near us.

good luck

Jo

Messages in this topic (17)
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9a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litter
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:23 pm ((PDT))

>>Also I now have my first rawfed litter here. They were born Aug. 19th,
six tricolor babies. Their mother has been rawfed since April and the
puppies are all healthy. Is there anything I should NOT fed her while
she's nursing? When should I offer meat to the babies? How should I
offer it? What kind of meat should I offer first, and how often should
I try new meats with them? Is there anything else I should be aware of
with them or their mom?<<

Hi, Laura -- my first weaned to raw litter (Corgis) was born April 22nd. I fed mom Darcy the same as my other dogs. Figured she'd "tell" me if she didn't want a particular item; the only thing she refused was fish (go figure -- pre-pregnancy, fish was her favorite!). I did increase her food and fed her more often.
I started offering chicken (bone-in breasts) to my puppies at 5 wks. of age. They licked at the food at first, but within a few days started to pull off meat (I cut "ribbons" into it to facilitate this). Within a week, they were stripping all the week off the bones; within two weeks, they were working on the bone. It was the most amazing and coolest thing (but I admit to being easily amused!) I've ever seen.
Someone -- perhaps list goddess Jane -- suggested I offer a wide variety to the puppies right away. So, for the boneless meals, within a week, they got pork, beef heart, turkey, venison, elk, and fish. Never a problem.
Good luck with the litter!

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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10. Hello, I'm new to the group...=)
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:24 pm ((PDT))

Hello everyone! I am owned by 4 dogs and they range from little-2
standard Dachshunds to 1 Doberman, to GIANT an English Mastiff. I
have been REALLY thinking about going raw but I have had sooo much
info tossed at me from sooo many different directions that I don't
know where to start or what to do? I live in a VERY small town way
out in NO WHERE East Texas. We live on a ranch so our stores are
VERY limited and the closest big city is Mesquite, Texas and that is
about 50 miles from us. I do have a Super Walmart that is only 15
miles from us. I was reading about raw feeding on a link that I got
from this group and it listed all kinds of meats and organs to feed
but I don't even know where to begin as far as how much? How often?
What kind? Where, so it is not messy? My two Dachshunds are indoor
dogs and I can see that for example if I gave them a chicken back,
that would get really messy, how do you keep it from being a mess? I
also read on this link that dogs a TRUE carnivores so no veggies are
necessary nor any other nutrients just the meats and organs will do,
what do y'all think? The very reputable breeder that I bought my
standard Dachshunds from in Oregon has been feeding raw for over 15
years and she feeds mainly chicken but she also feeds veggies and
Omega 3 fish oils and on occasion she feeds sardines...yuk(as far as
me having to smell them lol). My dogs currently eat kibble morning
7:30am and 5:00pm.
Cori and the gang

Messages in this topic (1)
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11.1. Re: question
Posted by: "Katie" kcrockett@mac.com kcrockettla7
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:01 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR POSTS.***

I thought I'd try posting this again . . . maybe it got lost in the internet??

Of all you feed are chicken quarters (assuming you added organ meat), would it be
sufficient (other than lacking variety)?

I realize variety is better . . . but, theoretically, would checken, including organs, be
sufficient?

...katie

Messages in this topic (67)
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11.2. Re: chicken-only diet (was: question)
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi Katie,

I don't have any "facts" about this--haven't heard of any studies on
chicken-only diets (there are hardly any studies on raw, period).
I'm sure there are people who feed their dogs chicken only. It's
better than kibble or canned. But from what I've read, wolves'
primary diet would be more like elk/caribou/venison with maybe some
snacks of mice or fowl or fish when available or when other prey is
scarce. So it makes sense to me that red meat (beef, lamb, pork,
goat, venison, etc.) is probably better for them, and they probably
would be missing quite a bit if they never had any. If you can find
and afford it, I would suggest adding in more variety. If you can't,
just keep looking for more/cheaper sources and add it in as you go.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Katie" <kcrockett@...> wrote:

I realize variety is better . . . but, theoretically, would checken,
including organs, be
> sufficient?

Messages in this topic (67)
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11.3. Re: question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:22 pm ((PDT))

"Katie" <kcrockett@...> wrote:
>> I realize variety is better . . . but, theoretically, would checken,
including organs, be
> sufficient?
*****
Theoretically, no.
Accidentally, yes.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (67)
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12a. Re: Duck and organ question
Posted by: "mariola9000" mariola9000@yahoo.com mariola9000
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:06 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote

>

www.elkusa.com
>
> It is a small farm in CO and, their animals are grain-fed (I am
bit compromise on this) but ,they carry Goat,Buffalo,Denver deer,and Elk.

> But,if you want rabbit,Hare today gone tomorrow (was it right?) in
PA carry good selection of rabbit.

Yassy,

Thanks for the links. I may try them.

Mariola.

Messages in this topic (11)
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13a. Re: Can You Give Too Much Organ Meat?
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:11 pm ((PDT))

I try to feed offal about three times a fornight. This works out to
about 10% of their food. This is for my dog and three cats.

I buy packs of hearts, tripe, kidney, liver and giblets- then chop and
freeze into bags. Each bag has different ratios of goodies so they are
varied all the time.

Jo

Messages in this topic (4)
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14a. Re: traveling with raw/Coleman cooler ?s
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:18 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

When travelling with our pup at nine weeks she needed several feeds
along the way(two days - one night stopover). I froze portions for her
to eat that night and for breakfast and bought her lunch at McDonalds.
I had to convince them to sell me a raw patty but they eventually did.

The frozen bones were still icey cold when I gave them to her so she
played with them for ages but she did eat them. I filled up one litre
plastic bottles and froze them to use as freezer bricks. At the motel
that night I put them back in the freezer and the meat in the fridge.

When we reached our destination I went to the supermarket and bought
her food there.

My father has a car fridge that he uses for long trips - you can get
different sized ones that run off your car battery.

Good luck and have a good holiday!
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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