[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11937

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. cocci and a pup new to raw feeding
From: Jennifer

2a. Re: accessing archives (was: Duck and organ question)
From: costrowski75

3. Probiotics, again
From: ptmagi

4.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: darkstardog
4.2. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: costrowski75
4.3. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: Ivette Casiano
4.4. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: chaparraltrail
4.5. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: darkstardog
4.6. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: chaparraltrail
4.7. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: cooniefish@aol.com
4.8. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: Shannon Parker
4.9. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
From: Sandee Lee

5a. help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: john
5b. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: Morledzep@aol.com
5c. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: cooniefish@aol.com
5d. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
From: anjumdanielle

6a. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
From: costrowski75

7a. Transition from kibble to raw
From: ptmagi
7b. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
From: Morledzep@aol.com

8a. freezing meat
From: heather2449707
8b. Re: freezing meat
From: Laurie Swanson

9a. Re: Switching to raw and.....
From: chaparraltrail

10a. Where to buy meat in San Diego,CA
From: Diana Zarate
10b. Re: Where to buy meat in San Diego,CA
From: Morledzep@aol.com

11a. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
From: Olga

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1. cocci and a pup new to raw feeding
Posted by: "Jennifer" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:16 pm ((PDT))

I have a new baby who got cocci and she not eating. I want to get her
on something to help build her immune system up. she ten week old
siberian and weight 9.5lbs. any help would be great our vet got her on
albond, but it seems to be making her hurt more.

jennifer
free spirit kennel of va.

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: accessing archives (was: Duck and organ question)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:23 pm ((PDT))

"Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
> I know
> when Chris gives these instructions, she says to join the group, but
> I thought everyone that posts is a member of the group already?
> Maybe I'm missing something.
*****
The problem is Yahoo views subscription via email as different from
subscription via Yahoogroups. You can (and I wager most people do)
become members of a list without ever becoming a member of Yahoogroups.

If one clicks on the stuff at the bottom of an email message and is not
a Yahoogroup member, one has to "join" yahoogroups before being able to
access the list home page with its file, databases, photos and message
archives.

That's why I say "join the group". You got a list and you got a
group. You can in fact have one without the other.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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3. Probiotics, again
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:24 pm ((PDT))

I'm new to the list and have been reading back through recent posts
and ran across a thread on probiotics. Our new puppy is a Boxer and
they're notoriously gassy dogs and we ran across a suggestion on a
Boxer forum to add a tablespoon of fat-free, plain yogurt to the dog's
meals to cut down on the farting. The person who suggested it
credited the probiotics in the yogurt for the "cure." It definitely
seems to be working for us... Atticus still farts, but not nearly as
much, and if we skip the yogurt he farts up a storm!

I suspect that once we complete the transition to raw he may not need
the probiotics, however. Our vet explained that the reason Boxers
pass so much gas is due to their short snouts and taking in a lot of
air with their food. He also said that the larger the kibble, the
more air would be trapped in it and ingested. I'm guessing there's
not a whole lot of air in raw meat and bones, so here's hoping for a
fart-free (or at least fart-reduced) future!

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (1)
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4.1. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, jrtsnabc <jrtsnabc@...> wrote:
>
> If she's already on raw, she's on a good, moderately-low protein
>diet!
>

As Lori said, a raw diet is not a moderately-low protein diet. A raw
diet is high protein in the way a vet would look at it. And the lower
the fat, the higher the protein content would need to be.

>
>Once you take away the bone, fat, and water, a raw diet is only about
>10-12% protein. (Someone please correct me if I'm off here.)
>

Once you take away the bone, fat and water, a raw diet is essentially
100% protein.

>
> Because most vets don't research raw diets, they just "assume" that
>it must be high in protein because it's all meat (which, of course,
>it's not). The fact is that it's not high in protein and your vet
>most likely just doesn't want you feeding a raw diet (and he wants to
>make money selling you his crap-in-a-bag).
>

You're making an assumption about what most vets would assume. Maybe
some vets would make that false assumption, but whether they did or
not, a raw diet is still likely to be high in protein according to the
way a vet would look at a diet.
Whether a high protein diet is a problem is a different question. But
one way or another, I think it's
better to be clearly communicating with your vet.

If it were my dog, I'd want a vet who was up-to-date in knowing about
nutritional factors in the various symptoms and types of liver
disease. I think the most up-to-date thinking is that low protein
isn't the right diet in most cases.
I've read that red meat can be more of a problem than white meat,
although the reason has not been clear to me, and maybe that has
changed. But there was some basis for that idea; I wouldn't rule it
out without trying to follow up on it.

Also there is some basis for the idea of giving some carbs with
fermentable fiber that will encourage the growth of some gut bacteria
(oats for instance, or something called lactulose). I only know some
things I've read, and what I remember may not be current. But again,
there was some reason for adding those carbs to the diet of dogs with
certain liver disease symptoms - it was to help remove ammonia or urea
from the blood when the liver was having trouble metabolizing enough.
So I wouldn't rule all carbs out in every situation without trying to
understand the basis for adding them.

Marty

Messages in this topic (27)
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4.2. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:30 pm ((PDT))

"chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:

Despite posts to the contrary,
> raw is high in both fat and protein,
*****
Compared to what?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (27)
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4.3. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:08 pm ((PDT))

Samantha, have you tried this site to find a vet who knows about rawfeeding?

http://www.holisticvetlist.com/

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (27)
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4.4. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@> wrote:
>
> Despite posts to the contrary,
> > raw is high in both fat and protein,
> *****
> Compared to what?
> Chris O

Compared to any food that relies on carbohydrates, or grain-based
proteins. Such as that K-word stuff. Or home-prepared food with
vegetables. A raw diet greatly reduces the calories received from
carbohydrates, as meats contain very little carbohydrates. Whether or
not it is higher in protein or higher in fat will depend on the raw
food given. But the percentage of calories derived from fat + protein
will be higher on a meat-fish-poultry-eggs diet than on any other
options out there.

This is a good thing, not a bad thing. I do not understand why people
try to "prove" it is low protein, via fuzzy math, when the fat and
protein are good for dogs.

Dogs get 0% of their caloric intake from water.

Lori

Messages in this topic (27)
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4.5. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@> wrote:
>
> Despite posts to the contrary,
> > raw is high in both fat and protein,
> *****
> Compared to what?
>

I'd say the answer is: compared to the standard commercial dog food,
probably kibble. This is what vets would probably consider normal.
Whether it is an appropriate diet or not, that doesn't change the fact
that vets will take that amount as 'normal'. So if you're
communicating with a vet and you say your raw diet is 'not high' in
protein, or 'moderately low' in protein, or (for example) 18% in
protein, the vet may misundrestand how much protein the dog is
actually getting.

Whether you want your vet to be misled is up to you.

Marty
>

Messages in this topic (27)
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4.6. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:09 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "darkstardog" <darkstardog@...>
wrote:
> If it were my dog, I'd want a vet who was up-to-date in knowing about
> nutritional factors in the various symptoms and types of liver
> disease.
> So I wouldn't rule all carbs out in every situation without trying to
> understand the basis for adding them.

Exactly! Just as my wheelchair-bound human friend was almost killed by
his mother's breast milkdue to his medical condition, perhaps some
canine conditions warrant an adjustment, including foods that would
not be ideal for a normal dog. I do not know what those conditions
might be, because I am not a vet.

This is not heresy, just using the best medical knowledge available,
ideally from a raw-friendly vet, to make the best health care
decisions we can for our pets.

Lori

Messages in this topic (27)
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4.7. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "cooniefish@aol.com" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:14 pm ((PDT))

I have looked, but there are so many inferior vets, that I like to get a
recommendation. Especially because funds are tight,

Thanks
Sam


In a message dated 8/21/2007 9:08:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ivettecasiano@yahoo.com writes:

Samantha, have you tried this site to find a vet who knows about rawfeeding?
_http://www.holistichttp://www.h_ (http://www.holisticvetlist.com/)

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (27)
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4.8. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:28 pm ((PDT))

Hi Samantha,

As I'm sure you've learned as you've been guided towards the archives, and been told by senior raw feeders...Hepatitis is NOT renal failure. Hepatitis is in plain terms an inflammed liver. The function of the liver is to detoxify the body. Being a vet tech (by education, no longer by trade) I understand that vets are only trained to nutritionally treat ailments based on what the dog food companies tell them. Feeding a low protein diet (or what they think is low protein) will make no difference on their liver function. If they are trying to push you to a low-protein kibble diet, then there's your proof that they have NO CLUE what they are talking about. Why would anyone try to convince you that a diet filled with chemicals, preservatives, and god knows what animal parts is better than what you can feed your animals naturally. Do yourself a favour and find a good Holistic vet. You will need a conventional vet for emergencies and routine things like blood work (well,
this is what I require as my holistic vet deals with more chronic issues). If you can't find a holistic vet, then ask around for a vet who can understand the benefit of raw food. I know, hard to find, but if you tell us where you live, someone may be able to recommend a good vet in your area. I personally am very lucky...I have an amazing holistic vet as well as a conventional vet who has no problem with me feeding raw.

Good luck,

Shannon

cooniefish@aol.com wrote:

Hi! You are the first person I have met that also had a dog with hepatitis.
I would love to speak to you more, (On or off list) about your experience and

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Messages in this topic (27)
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4.9. Re: Vet wants a low protein diet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

You are right about that...and just because they say they are holistic
doesn't mean they are!

If you want a good vet who does phone consults, try Jeff Feinman....
http://www.homevet.com

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <cooniefish@aol.com>

>
> I have looked, but there are so many inferior vets, that I like to get a
> recommendation. Especially because funds are tight,

Messages in this topic (27)
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5a. help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "john" luvthisphysique@yahoo.com luvthisphysique
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT))

i have an 8 month apbt, who is a big boy. just took him to the vet,
and he weighed in at 90lbs. for about a week or so, he does not touch
his food! he usually eats chicken thighs, and a couple of eggs out of
the week. i noticed the first couple of days he was not touching his
food, so i switched it to some pork, nothing happening! ate a little
bit, that's it!! so what i would do is leave the plate there for about
15 min, and take it away regardless if he ate it or not. that didn't
work, every piece of food was still there. so he has not really ate in
about 5 days or so, just little pieces of food. i am confused and i
don't know what to do?? i don't want him to get thin on me, and i
would appreciate some help and advice that will work!!

Anthony Rodriguez

Southern California

Thank You

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/21/2007 5:35:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
luvthisphysique@yahoo.com writes:

so he has not really ate in
about 5 days or so, just little pieces of food. i am confused and i
don't know what to do?? i don't want him to get thin on me, and i
would appreciate some help and advice that will work!!

Anthony,

you need to find out who is feeding your dog.. no normal healthy dog will
starve itself.

either someone is feeding your dog inbetween meals or your dog has a medical
problem and should be seen by a vet.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "cooniefish@aol.com" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:12 pm ((PDT))

I find myself agreeing. I do a lot of rescue, and take in lots of new dogs
that all get switched to raw. In 11 years I only had one dog starve for 5
days.

You say he is eating little pieces of food. This is good! Like what, for
example?

Thanks
samantha


In a message dated 8/21/2007 9:05:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Morledzep@aol.com writes:

so he has not really ate in
about 5 days or so, just little pieces of food. i am confused and i
don't know what to do?? i don't want him to get thin on me, and i
would appreciate some help and advice that will work!!

Anthony,

you need to find out who is feeding your dog.. no normal healthy dog will
starve itself.

either someone is feeding your dog inbetween meals or your dog has a medical
problem and should be seen by a vet.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: help!!! frustated and upset!!
Posted by: "anjumdanielle" anjumdanielle@yahoo.com anjumdanielle
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:44 pm ((PDT))

90lbs! I think your apbt is crossed w/ moose! ;) jk. I have an
apbt too & he's given me some hassle from time to time w/ the food.
They just have such a unique personality - they want you to be happy
about it if they're going to be happy about it. You do have to stay
firm though, or he will learn that you will change up the food if at
first he refuses it. I had to coax & encourage my dog at first - he
was just so confused. But once I knew he could eat, I would just
leave the food down & pick it up if not eaten & put it back in the
fridge for the next day. A couple times we've done this for up to 5
days.

Try giving him some extra encouragement, talking real enthusiastic &
such. If he doesn't eat in a set amount of time, try not to show
your frustration at all, & pick up the food & put it away. Go on w/
your day like nothing happened. It's hard, but they pick up on your
emotions so easily.

If he still doesn't eat after a couple days & you're really worried,
you can try some bribe methods. Something like briefly searing the
outside of the meat or pouring something over top of the food. But
really only use that as a last resort, or you may find yourself doing
it longer than you care to.

HTH - Anjum

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "john" <luvthisphysique@...> wrote:
>
> i have an 8 month apbt, who is a big boy. just took him to the vet,
> and he weighed in at 90lbs. for about a week or so, he does not
touch his food!
> Anthony Rodriguez
>
> Southern California
>
> Thank You
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: New to Group and Raw-Feeding Experience
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:45 pm ((PDT))

"Peggy" <peggy070605@...> wrote:
I started both of them on raw food today. But
> now I'm questioning if that was wrong, because there was no
transition?
*****
Your do not need to transition your dogs to a raw diet if you take it
nice and slow. If you don't take it nice and slow you don't have to
transition either, but you do have to be prepared to back off and
take things easy if the dog has digestive distress. I suspect a
transition is more for the human's benefit than the dogs.

Also, I heard that the first week, you
> should only give puppies meat, no veggies.
*****
Puppies or dogs, there is no need to feed vegetables. Puppies or
dogs, feeding meat alone is not enough. But since you fed bone-in
chicken and turkey parts you probably know that raw diets require
meat, edible bone and organs. Your choices were sensible, don't
worry about the veggies. Ever.

And, I have a recipe
> that calls for I think it's 2tsp. of Vitamin-C powder to mix in
> w/veggies among other ingredients. Is it okay to just grind-up Vit-
C
> tablets? How many do I give them? They're 500 MG each.
*****
You don't have to give your dogs vitamin C (they make it themselves,
no help needed) and you certainly do not have to do anything to or
with vegetables. Skip that part of your recipe.

What else does it say on that recipe?

Also, did anyone else feel as if they were going to
> vomit the first time they fed their dogs raw food? I felt so
grossed
> out, eck.
*****
No, not at all. I was absolutely relieved that my dog was eating
after two days of not. It has never grossed me out.

You know what grossed me out? Seeing a seething pile of very healthy
maggots atop an opened can of Pedigree dogfood grossed me out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Transition from kibble to raw
Posted by: "ptmagi" ptmagi@gmail.com ptmagi
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:08 pm ((PDT))

We adopted a Boxer puppy a month ago (he's 3-1/2 months old now) and
have been feeding him the same kibble the breeder had him on. A week
or so ago, I stumbled on to various sites extolling the raw meat &
bones diet and I'm sold. I started out just mixing raw egg with his
kibble... he scarfed it down like it was filet mignon! The next
couple of days, I crumbled up some ground beef on top of his kibble,
and again he practically inhaled it. I picked up a 10 lb. bag of
chicken leg quarters and gave him one for his mid-day meal both
yesterday and today, and am continuing the kibble for his breakfast
and suppertime meals. I'm doing this in the hopes of avoiding the
diarrhea that can come from changing a pup's diet too suddenly, but
also because we still have 3/4 of a 40 lb. bag of kibble and I hate to
see it go to waste. Is there anything inherently wrong with this
approach?

BTW, he was just so cute to watch after he downed his first "raw meaty
bone" yesterday. He fairly pranced around the house and yard, head
held high, obviously thinking to himself "Aaaah, this is the life!"

Deb in CO

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Transition from kibble to raw
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:00 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/21/2007 6:09:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ptmagi@gmail.com writes:

I'm doing this in the hopes of avoiding the
diarrhea that can come from changing a pup's diet too suddenly, but
also because we still have 3/4 of a 40 lb. bag of kibble and I hate to
see it go to waste. Is there anything inherently wrong with this
approach?

Deb,

mixing kibble and raw is a recipe for digestive upset.. believe me, i've been
there and done that. and it will NEVER happen again.

i understand not wanting to waste most of a 40lb bag of dog food.. so don't..
donate it to the local animal shelter or all breed rescue.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. freezing meat
Posted by: "heather2449707" heather2449707@yahoo.com heather2449707
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:10 pm ((PDT))

Can meat be thawed and then refroze? I can get some really good deals
on frozen chicken but they need to be cut into smaller pieces. Thanks,
Heather

Messages in this topic (8)
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8b. Re: freezing meat
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:27 pm ((PDT))

Yes, Heather, no problem.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "heather2449707"
<heather2449707@...> wrote:
>
> Can meat be thawed and then refroze?

Messages in this topic (8)
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9a. Re: Switching to raw and.....
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@> wrote:
> >> Nobody is blaming the dog.
> *****
> Baloney they're not.
> Every time a person quits feeding raw because the dog couldn't
handle
> the blame is conveniently, guiltlessly laid on the dog.

Calm down, for heaven sake! How do you know what happens, "every"
time? This is a stereotype, and highly unlikey to be true, "every"
time. But because I am not omniscient, I cannot say that, with
certainty. Neither can you, because you are omniscient, either.

> The question was whether all dogs should be fed raw. I
absolutely say
> yes they should.

...which means (in the context of the example I gave) that you
believe a dog who truly could not digest raw food should die, which
would be nature's way of handling such a digestive anomaly.

My human friend would have died, had his parents not immediately
stopped giving him human food which would under most circumstances
have been the best. Had they rigidly stuck to the "natural" path,
Jared would be dead. I prefer Jared alive.

Your statements about raw being appropriate are *generally* truy,
but the question was not about generalities, but rather if it is
*ever* appropriate to feed other than raw.

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion, and perhaps dogs and
humans as species would be better off if we let the weak die off,
and not breed.

But as the parent of three disabled children, I have a different
take on the matter, for dogs as well as humans.

Lori
~who believes in raw feeding, but would not sacrifice my dog's life
for the "cause" if there were true medical contraindications

Messages in this topic (9)
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10a. Where to buy meat in San Diego,CA
Posted by: "Diana Zarate" zarated5@sbcglobal.net bulliegirl55
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:26 pm ((PDT))

Hello, does anyone know where I can find good meat reasonably priced
in the San Diego area? Thanks for your input :)

Diana & Jade

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Where to buy meat in San Diego,CA
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:29 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/21/2007 6:26:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
zarated5@sbcglobal.net writes:

Hello, does anyone know where I can find good meat reasonably priced
in the San Diego area? Thanks for your input :)

socalbarf.com.. read the FAQ page.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: How do I go about buying Raw
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:44 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
> Where ya been?

Been busy buying the pups a house with a yard. Sometimes life just
gets in the way. ;)

Olga

Messages in this topic (15)
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