Feed Pets Raw Food: Jul 3, 2007

Tuesday, July 3, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11758

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: I have a rescue dobie
From: mary
1b. Re: I have a rescue dobie
From: mary
1c. Re: I have a rescue dobie
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: So far so good, but have a couple of questions
From: Bearhair

3a. Liver/Kidney Enzyme Levels
From: Dayna Dreger
3b. Re: Liver/Kidney Enzyme Levels
From: Casey Post
3c. Re: Liver/Kidney Enzyme Levels
From: Dayna Dreger

4a. how much bone does a puppy need?
From: temy1102
4b. Re: how much bone does a puppy need?
From: Sandee Lee
4c. Re: how much bone does a puppy need?
From: temy1102

5a. licking but not eating.
From: Jenna Mahoney
5b. Re: licking but not eating.
From: Sandee Lee
5c. Re: licking but not eating.
From: Jenna Mahoney
5d. Re: licking but not eating.
From: betty hinson

6a. Re: sources?
From: antarpremal

7a. Re: Buying a full cow!
From: Bearhair
7b. Re: Buying a full cow!
From: woofwoofgrrl

8. question about pork legs
From: Vickie

9a. Re: WOW thanks for all the great help...
From: linoleum5017

10. Dog ate a seashell...problem?
From: wisslewj

11. Here's hoping..........
From: Linda Edgington

12a. mechanically cut bone
From: tamarabajema
12b. Re: mechanically cut bone
From: Sandee Lee

13a. deworming
From: tamarabajema
13b. Re: deworming
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
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1a. Re: I have a rescue dobie
Posted by: "mary" dobesrcool@cox.net dobesrcool
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))

Sandee
Thank you so much for the info so I can buy the whole chicken.
Mary

Mary,

The warning for weight bearing bones only applies to critters who have some
weight to bear....like moose, elk, cow, etc. Chicken legs are fine!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mary" <dobesrcool@cox.net>

> I thought that we are not to feed like chicken legs & thighs,because
they are weight bareing bones.Confused
> please help

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: I have a rescue dobie
Posted by: "mary" dobesrcool@cox.net dobesrcool
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))

Chris O
Thank you so much I will get to the store soon and watch for sales on.Chicken & beef are not enought.
Mary

"mary" <dobesrcool@...> wrote:
>
> I thought that we are not to feed like chicken legs &
thighs,because they are weight bareing bones.
*****
The weight commercial chickens bear is not much and very brief. Fyers
grow quick and die young. Their legs and thighs are barely bones.

The legs and thighs you want to be skeptical of are those that tote
around large animals like cows, buffalo, elk, giraffes, elephants, yaks
and other Big Critters. When an animal gets to as much as 2000 pounds
and its legs have to support it (sometimes at a run) for a year or
longer, the bones are dense and strong and made to last far longer than
we let them.

Pigs, goat, lamb (maybe sheep), chicken, turkeys, quail, game hens--all
generally provide edible legs bones.
Chris O

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: I have a rescue dobie
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:18 pm ((PDT))

Absolutely, Mary...that's the best way to feed chicken! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mary" <dobesrcool@cox.net>

> Sandee
> Thank you so much for the info so I can buy the whole chicken.
> Mary
>
>
> Mary,
>
> The warning for weight bearing bones only applies to critters who have
some
> weight to bear....like moose, elk, cow, etc. Chicken legs are fine!

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: So far so good, but have a couple of questions
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

Linda wrote:

>Thanks for the help. We just had a "poop" and it was pretty solid, and not as much and much lighter in color, so guess I should start with some bone in chicken. When it rains or get to cold I will feed him in his kennel.

Linda, that's all you're going to get - poop from raw-fed dogs is tiny
compared to the same dog on kibble. It's all digested, like it should be.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Liver/Kidney Enzyme Levels
Posted by: "Dayna Dreger" dld842@mail.usask.ca giosheltie
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:02 pm ((PDT))

My curiosity has struck and I would love some more opinions on this.

I recently took my 5 year old male Sheltie in to have his thyroid
tested. The vet ran a CBC and chem panel prior to the T4 test to
determine a baseline as to how his health is overall. Everything came
back normal ... thyroid function on the mid-high end of normal, blood
count and chem panel great. The only thing she noted was that there
was one kidney enzyme and one liver enzyme that were at the high edge
of normal. I'm confident that it is nothing to be concerned about. He
was in at the vet at the end of February when he began having seizures
(no cause was found, raw diet seems to be helping YAY!) and they did
every test imaginable, including abdominal ultrasound and x-ray that
showed all vital organs as in perfect health.

Anyways, that is the background to my curiosity.

The morning that he had his bloodwork done, I had fed him breakfast
that consisted of beef liver and beef kidney, in addition to some beef
lung and a hunk of pork, 2-4 hours prior to the blood test (I know,
not too smart, but when booking the appointment they never indicated
to do otherwise). A few questions stem from that:

1) Do beef liver and kidney contain high-ish levels of enzymes, or are
they just produced in the organs and immediately excreted in a living
animal?
2) Would a blood test on a dog detect enzymes that originated in a
different species (ie. cattle). I know that many hormones and enzymes
share high homology between species, so would a chem panel possibly
detect enzymes from the liver and kidney in his breakfast after
absorption?

Thanks
--
Dayna

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Liver/Kidney Enzyme Levels
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:08 pm ((PDT))

> 1) Do beef liver and kidney contain high-ish levels of enzymes, or are
> they just produced in the organs and immediately excreted in a living
> animal?
> 2) Would a blood test on a dog detect enzymes that originated in a
> different species (ie. cattle). I know that many hormones and enzymes
> share high homology between species, so would a chem panel possibly
> detect enzymes from the liver and kidney in his breakfast after
> absorption?

Dayna,

No, it doesn't work like this. Those numbers on the chem panel would likely
have been higher no matter what you fed. The process of digestion raises
some blood levels naturally as part of the process...so if you'd fed organ
meats or toast, it's the same (ignoring the obvious fact that toast isn't
good for dogs, but there you go).

Just remember next time you run bloods to fast for at least 8-10 hours
before the draw, since the "normals" are based on fasting levels and eating
anything before a draw will make a few of the numbers look wonky.

FWIW.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Liver/Kidney Enzyme Levels
Posted by: "Dayna Dreger" dld842@mail.usask.ca giosheltie
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Casey,

I just thought it was curious that the items that were a tad bit off
were from organs that were fed just a few hours prior. I would have
been tickled if it worked like that! But of course, logic does dictate
otherwise.

Thanks for the clarification!

--
Dayna

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. how much bone does a puppy need?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:03 pm ((PDT))

i imagine more than mature dogs, no? the whole extra calcium for
growing babies? i'm a flintstone kid?

so i have 2 little foster babies, 4 months old. from what i've read
here, i've been feeding them 3 meals a day, just chicken thighs for
now until their poops seem consistently good. it's been 3 days, and
the boy is having mucusy diarrhea and the girl is fasting herself.
she'll only eat chicken skin, and today i fed her some beef rib meat.
so her poop remains to be seen.

upon doing a search, the mucusy poop might be caused by too much bone.
how much bone do puppies really need? i know my old guy and my
little doxie don't need nearly as much as grover does, in order to
keep poops good. but i'm not clear on the puppy thing.

tammy & foster puppies boris and nika!

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: how much bone does a puppy need?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

Tammy,

Just continue to feed prey model....bones should be approximately 10% of the
overall diet, puppy or adult! Stick with lots of meat, a little bone!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@gmail.com>

i imagine more than mature dogs, no? the whole extra calcium for
growing babies? i'm a flintstone kid?

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: how much bone does a puppy need?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:49 pm ((PDT))

but should i cut back on the bone for a little bit, while my boy puppy
adjusts? he's squirting out mucus from his fat behind.

tammy & grover who is enjoying the new puppies

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. licking but not eating.
Posted by: "Jenna Mahoney" hav.lover@yahoo.com hav.lover
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

First I want to give a huge thanks to everyone for helping me switch to
raw. I couldn't respond to every email but you know who you are. I have
2 Havanese, 9lbs and 11lbs. I have started them on chicken wings per
everyones advice. The first day they both gobbled them down. Boy!!
was I impressed!!! Today though my bigger Hav only licked his wings and
wouldn't chew them up. After awhile I picked his up and put it away.
Should I be worried.? Is this normal to sometimes eat a meal? Any
thoughts.
Jenna

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: licking but not eating.
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:45 pm ((PDT))

Jenna,

You got advice on this list to feed chicken wings? They are far too small
and bony. I would offer some nice meaty meals...bone-in chicken breasts
would be a good choice.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Jenna Mahoney" <hav.lover@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: licking but not eating.
Posted by: "Jenna Mahoney" hav.lover@yahoo.com hav.lover
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>Sandee,
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought since my dogs are only 10lbs,
that chicken wings were a good start for them. They only need 3-5 oz
a day according to the 2-3% rule. Please correct me if I
misunderstood. I am a newbie. I will try 1/2 a breast tomorrow. Thank
you for the feed back.
Jenna

> Jenna,
>
> You got advice on this list to feed chicken wings? They are far
too small
> and bony. I would offer some nice meaty meals...bone-in chicken
breasts
> would be a good choice.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
>
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: licking but not eating.
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

what about chicken legs for 6 and 8 lb dogs Is that alright??
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me Phil 4:13

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: sources?
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "antarpremal" <antarpremal@> wrote:
> >I would love to get some wild meat, rabbit, elk,
> > deer.....not easy to come by in the suburbs.
> *****
> Have you posted your wish list to the CarnivoreFeed-Supplier list?
> It's a sister list opened specifically to help people link up with
> suppliers who have want rawfeeders want.
> Chris O
>
Ok chris I'll do that. Thanks for the reply!
Jen

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Buying a full cow!
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

Merril wrote:

>I don't know whether it's good to eat only cow for weeks at a time since most of the bone
>is not very edible so you'd mostly be getting organs, muscle or fat. I like to throw in
>some edible bone from another source just to be sure.

Anyone else thinking about building a livestock version of a turducken?

"A Turducken is a de-boned turkey stuffed with a de-boned duck, which itself
is stuffed with a small de-boned chicken. . . . Some recipes call for the
turkey to be stuffed with a chicken which is then stuffed with a duckling. It
is also called a chuckey. . . . some enthusiasts have taken it a step
further, and come up with the turduckencorpheail. This is a standard
turducken, which is then stuffed with a cornish game hen, which is then
stuffed with a pheasant, and finally stuffed with a quail. "
There is also "Osturduckencorpheail . . . Osturducken . . . gurducken . . .
hotchken . . . turgoduckmaguikenantidgeonck . . . "
"The largest recorded nested bird roast is 17 birds, attributed to a royal
feast in France in the 19th century: a bustergophechiduckneaealcockidge-
overwingailusharkolanbler (originally called a Rôti Sans Pareil, or "Roast
without equal") - a bustard stuffed with a turkey, a goose, a pheasant, a
chicken, a duck, a guinea fowl, a teal, a woodcock, a partridge, a plover, a
lapwing, a quail, a thrush, a lark, an Ortolan Bunting and a Garden Warbler.
The final bird is small enough that it can be stuffed with a single olive; it
also suggests that, unlike modern multi-bird roasts, there was no stuffing or
other packing placed in between the birds. This dish probably could not be
recreated in the modern era as many of the listed birds are now protected
species."
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turducken

"[W]hole stuffed camel is a culinary delicacy composed of a medium-sized
camel stuffed with a sheep or a lamb stuffed with other foods both animal and
plant. . . . Cooked eggs are stuffed into fish, the fish stuffed into cooked
chickens, the chickens stuffed into a roasted sheep's carcass and the sheep
stuffed into a whole camel."
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_stuffed_camel

Let's see . . . from what we typically feed, using mammals only . . .

A rabbit stuffed into a boneless goat stuffed into a boneless sheep stuffed
into a boneless pig stuffed into a boneless deer stuffed into a boneless
horse stuffed into a steer?

Did I miss anything?

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Buying a full cow!
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:49 pm ((PDT))

> "The largest recorded nested bird roast is 17 birds, attributed to a royal
> feast in France in the 19th century: a bustergophechiduckneaealcockidge-
> overwingailusharkolanbler (originally called a Rôti Sans Pareil, or "Roast
Egads! How on earth did they cook that without everyone getting food
poisoning?!?!?

> A rabbit stuffed into a boneless goat stuffed into a boneless sheep stuffed
> into a boneless pig stuffed into a boneless deer stuffed into a boneless
> horse stuffed into a steer?
>
> Did I miss anything?
You might be able to stuff all that into a buffalo.. they're pretty big!
LOL!!!
Christine
>
> Lora
> Evanston, IL
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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8. question about pork legs
Posted by: "Vickie" dals4creekside@comcast.net vivkie
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:32 pm ((PDT))

Hi all,

We just purchased a half a pig, which we asked for all the parts people
don't usually ask for. We split one of the legs in half and gave it to
the dogs. (hubby is still cussing me for that because he had to use
the saw to do it, and he did take the skin off of one half of it) The
dog that got the half with skin remaining worked on that thing for over
an hour with not much luck getting through to the meat. She got part
of the meat from the ends of it. The dog getting the skinless half had
a feast and a half LOL. My question is, how many of you feed pork legs
and how in the heck do you get that skin off it? Pork legs is not
something I would feed on a regular basis, but am just curious. She
sure did have a grand time knawing at it though. Also, I got some ox
tails on sale at an organic market, but they were cut in about 1 1/2
inch pieces. Have any of you fed these in that proportion before?
Thanks
Vickie

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: WOW thanks for all the great help...
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

Catherine,

I watch some peoples' dogs when they go away, and one of them is a
standard poodle who is amazingly thin. She gets the same response
you describe:

---. I've had at least 10 people tell me how thin she is in
> the last couple weeks.

She acts like she always has happy, energetic
> dog.

Maybe she is just an energetic dog that will be thin! The one I
watch, aptly named Nike, loves to run and can't sit still.
Moreover, if she's happy and full of energy, fahgetabout everyone
else's comments!

One last question in this long long post... Her breeder was feeding
> her pulped vegetables along with mostly chicken, tripe and ground
> beef. She didn't feed much organ meat, if any and she fed very bony
> meals from what she told me. I cut out all vegetables

YAYYYY!!!!!

>and added other meats, organs, and a lot less bone when I brought
her home.

Sounds good!

>Would herlack of proper feeding while growing have anything to do
with troubleputting on weight?

My experience is that a dog can adjust and thrive, regardless of its
past. Go for what is healthy, and give your dog time to come into
her own. Do give her lots of attention and loving, and she will be
all she was meant to be.

Be encouraged,
Lynne

Messages in this topic (16)
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10. Dog ate a seashell...problem?
Posted by: "wisslewj" wisslewj@yahoo.com wisslewj
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

Quick question guys,

My 8 lbs chihuahua ate a seashell today a few minutes ago. It was a
small little one about the size of a pea that came out of our dulse
seaweed bag. It was one of the small swirly ones that comes to a point.

I was wondering first off if there is anything poisonous to dogs in
that shell and second if this is a cause of concern or can their
stomach digest that? The end is pretty pointy and I don't want it to
puncture anything. I know bone digests well enough, but shell?

Should I give him some meat to raise stomach acid in the hopes of
digesting it or just wait for it to pass out?

Thanks
Jeff

Messages in this topic (1)
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11. Here's hoping..........
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

Everyone has a safe and wonderful 4th of July!!!

Giz and Sass

---------------------------------
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. mechanically cut bone
Posted by: "tamarabajema" tamarabajema@yahoo.ca tamarabajema
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:51 pm ((PDT))

Is it all right to feed mechanically cut bone? Such as if I am going to
have (beef, pork) steak for supper, can i cut out the bone before
cooking and feed that or is it too sharp, too hard?
t-bone steak, pork chops, etc.
I would leave on a generous amount of meat, but after he eats that is
it okay to eat the bone? He is a 4 pound dog.
thanks.
Tamara

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: mechanically cut bone
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 10:38 pm ((PDT))

Generally those bones are too sharp/too hard.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "tamarabajema" <tamarabajema@yahoo.ca>

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. deworming
Posted by: "tamarabajema" tamarabajema@yahoo.ca tamarabajema
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:51 pm ((PDT))

is deworming more neccessary on a raw diet, do you need to do it more
than once a year?
Tamara

Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: deworming
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 10:39 pm ((PDT))

Nope...never unless you have a known heavy infestation that is adversely
affecting the health of your dog.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "tamarabajema" <tamarabajema@yahoo.ca>

is deworming more neccessary on a raw diet, do you need to do it more
than once a year?

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11757

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: I have a new Daschund puppy
From: Andrea

2a. Re: Your thoughts as I take the plunge?
From: Giselle

3a. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
From: chele519

4a. Re: I have a rescue dobie
From: mary
4b. Re: I have a rescue dobie
From: Sandee Lee
4c. Re: I have a rescue dobie
From: costrowski75

5a. New Here, New to Raw
From: Dorianne Almann
5b. Re: New Here, New to Raw
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: pork heads - keep how long ? Smash ? Elk heads ?
From: Tracy

7a. Freecycling Meat
From: Debra Bammel
7b. Re: Freecycling Meat
From: carnesbill
7c. Re: Freecycling Meat
From: Linda Edgington

8a. Slippery Elm
From: pitbullanholder

9a. grocery store slump
From: elizabeth vreeland
9b. Re: grocery store slump
From: carnesbill

10a. Re: So far so good, but have a couple of questions
From: Giselle
10b. Re: So far so good, but have a couple of questions
From: Linda Edgington

11a. Accidently left chicken breasts on counter overnite
From: Linda Edgington
11b. Re: Accidently left chicken breasts on counter overnite
From: Giselle
11c. Re: Accidently left chicken breasts on counter overnite
From: carnesbill
11d. Re: Accidently left chicken breasts on counter overnite
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
From: woofwoofgrrl
12b. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
From: Sandee Lee
12c. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
From: Casey Post

13. Starting raw w/Dachshunds
From: Michael Moore

Messages
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1a. Re: I have a new Daschund puppy
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 11:31 am ((PDT))

Welcome, Catherine, you'll find that the feeding plan for an adult is
the same as for a puppy - Feed a variety of raw meaty bones, meat, and
some organ. You want to get as close to what a wolf would eat in the
wild, so whole prey is the best, but you can part it together as well.
Basically, you want to feed lots of meat, some edible bone (with meat
on it), and some organ. That's it. No need for veggies as a food
source, your dog is a carnivore and can't get nutrition from veggies
unless they have been prepped. Even then, the "nutrition" they derive
from the pulped veggies doesn't offer anything you wouldn't already
have in a good raw diet.

So, to start, it's most common to start with chicken since it's easy to
get and cheap. Buy a whole chicken, whack it up into quarters, and
feed to the dog. Every day you want to feed 2-3% of their ideal adult
weight, the puppy will probably need to eat several times a day. Let
them eat until they have had enough, pick up the rest and put it back
in the fridge for the next meal. Easy peasy. Keep them on chicken for
a couple of weeks so their digestive systems get used to raw food, and
keep reading the list. By the time the pups are ready to go on to
another meat source you'll have learned a whole lot. Good luck!

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Your thoughts as I take the plunge?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Jeffrey!
Imo, adult dogs given a lot of protein variety very early in their
introduction to raw can have much more gas than dogs who are
introduced to protein variety more slowly. Offering only one protein
at a time for about a week before moving on to a new one may not
eliminate the gas, but may take the ewww! factor down a couple
notches. Usually, once the dog's digestive system adjusts, the gas
frequency and ewww! factor diminishes.
And, the volume in the stool you may be seeing probably isn't from his
prior diet, but a reflection on your dog's ability at this time to
digest raw. It does take a little time until the dog's system adjusts,
even though raw is ideal and much more digestible. There is more stool
volume, ime, with bone than meatymeat. The claylike consistency you
report may be from the bone in his diet. Dry, even crumbly stools can
happen when the percentage of bone in the diet is high. Remember, its
not a bone diet, its a whole prey model diet - about 80% meat (muscle,
fat, skin, connective tissue, anything thats not bone or organ) about
10% bone, about 10% organ.
Personally, I'd stick with quartered whole chickens, with the heart,
gizzards and a teeny bit of liver (thumbnail sized) tossed in with
each meal for a week. I'd note the differences in stool and gas
emissions, (if any) then move on to, oh say, turkey, pork, beef, etc.
and so forth, each for about a week. Not every meal has to have, or
should have, a bone in it.
btw, most people avoid chicken or any meats that have salt solution
injected or are enhanced with flavorings or seasonings. These tend to
give loose stools or diarrhea or itchy skin on a lot of dogs.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> > Sorry, it looks like your post got lost in the group.......
> > How has your dog doing now?
>
> Thank you for the replies tottime47 and Andrea!
>
> She seems to be taking to the diet like a champ! In the past when she
> had decided to take a stroll through the woods, she often came back
> with bits of deer (Legs and feet mostly) but has never been any worse
> for the ware, so I figured her stomach is more than ready for a
> variety of meats. Over the past week I have been feeding Chicken
> Quarters, Spare Ribs, Pork Hawks and lamb shoulder (Basically anything
> that was priced to sell at the local grocery store).
>
> Her stools seem well formed. They are khaki in color and have a clay
> type texture. But there is considerably more stool volume than I
> believe I should be seeing.
>
> But I think it is still to early to draw any conclusions (1 week on
> RAW today)so I will stick with it and take your suggestions to heart!
>
> Oh yea, one more thing...No amount of reading on these posts can
> prepare you for the deadly, unearthly, noxious farts emanating from my
> poor sweet Bailey. If anyone truly wants to find weapons of mass
> destruction, They should try looking at the little hair ball curled up
> on my couch!
>
> Jeffrey
> Cresco, PA
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:43 pm ((PDT))

Glad it worked out for you. I used to give them sliced so when I
plunked down a whole 8 lb shoulder on the floor one day, Shrek looked
at me like I had 2 heads. Or maybe she was just thinking FINALLY!
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "wenigj" <wenigj@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Michelle,
> That is exactly what I found so I did take it away after she had
> gotten the meat off. You were right about it taking longer than
> chicken =) It was fun watching her figure out what to do with this new
> food.
> Jill W

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: I have a rescue dobie
Posted by: "mary" dobesrcool@cox.net dobesrcool
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:43 pm ((PDT))

I thought that we are not to feed like chicken legs & thighs,because they are weight bareing bones.Confused
please help
mary

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Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: I have a rescue dobie
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:46 pm ((PDT))

Mary,

The warning for weight bearing bones only applies to critters who have some
weight to bear....like moose, elk, cow, etc. Chicken legs are fine!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mary" <dobesrcool@cox.net>

> I thought that we are not to feed like chicken legs & thighs,because
they are weight bareing bones.Confused
> please help

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: I have a rescue dobie
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:57 pm ((PDT))

Pigs, goat, lamb (maybe sheep), chicken, turkeys, quail, game hens--all
generally provide edible legs bones.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. New Here, New to Raw
Posted by: "Dorianne Almann" rottienh@hotmail.com rottieruckus
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:45 pm ((PDT))

Hi, All:

I'm brand new to raw and this discussion group.

For years I've thought about making the transition to raw. My
journey in canine nutrition began (tho I didn't know it at the time)
in 1984 when I got my first Rottie. I fed that poor dog Science
Diet. Throughout his life my dog was plagued by hot spots. I
probably put my vet's kid thru a semester's worth of college, taking
Otto back for repeated visits & spending money on ointments, salves,
unguents, shampoos, sprays, powders, et al in a vain, fruitless
search for relief. Now that I know what I know, I think Otto was
allergic to the corn &/or preservatives in SD.

For years I've fed better grade kibble, supplemented with human
food/plate scrapings (such as they are), with the thought of
eventually moving to raw.

"Eventually" arrived—June 26, 2007.

Because of our foster boy.

Sailor is estimated to be 7-8 yo. He's been in our care since early
Jan and hasn't thrived. The minimum care my vet's provided him (and
to other foster boys), elimination of internal & external parasites,
& feeding the same kibble our girls ate (Evo, CA Nat, and Canidae)
has been for nought. After almost 6 months living in our home, he
still looked as awful as when he arrived. Yes, Sailor is
hypothyroid and we finally think we have his med dosage correct, but
he simply hasn't thrived. At his last vet visit in mid June, Dr
Donna suggested feeding him raw.

Sailor got hi first raw meal June 26 for dinner. Since he's on raw
& I think it's the best for dogs, I'm also feeding raw to our 2
personal Rottie girls.

I just became a member of this list and will be reading thru the
archives. I have no idea how much to feed (I've seen suggestions of
2-4% of the dog's weight). I've seen Yes to pureed veggies on some
Web sites, No to them. Yes, to boiled potatoes, No to them. Yes,
to supplements, No to them as they aren't needed. In other words,
I've read bewildering, conflicting advice.

I look forward to reading what all of you have to say and learning
from your experience!

--Dori

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: New Here, New to Raw
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 4:07 pm ((PDT))

"Dorianne Almann" <rottienh@...> wrote:
>
>Now that I know what I know, I think Otto was
> allergic to the corn &/or preservatives in SD.
*****
Probably more like he was poisoned by those things, not that he was
allergic to them.

At his last vet visit in mid June, Dr
> Donna suggested feeding him raw.
*****
Bless mah soul! A vet recommending raw food. What a concept.

I have no idea how much to feed (I've seen suggestions of
> 2-4% of the dog's weight).
*****
It's not important to know. What's important is if what you're
feeding works for him. If it is working (and it certainly sounds
like it is) then frankly who cares what the amount weighs? Percent
of adult weight is often recommended as a starting place but the
final analysis should always belong to the dog.

I've seen Yes to pureed veggies on some
> Web sites, No to them. Yes, to boiled potatoes, No to them.
*****
This list recommends feeding a menu appropriate to the species, which
is wolf. Processed vegetables were not, are not, and are not likely
to be part of a wolf's natural diet. No veggies, no grains, no
boiled potatoes (how dreadful!) Our domestic wolves have zero
nutritional need for carbohydrates (save for those naturally
occurring in small amounts in meat, such as liver). So we don't
recommend them.

Some lists recommend feeding a dog as if it had the nutritional
needs/physiology of a human. This seems odd enough to me but
anthropomorphic thinking does drive a LOT of feeding choices. Go
figure.

And some lists use as their guideline the chemical analysis that
comes from laboratories and is endorsed by "feeding officials" who
represent dog food. These formulas are vain attempts to recreate
what wolves eat naturally. But the numbers on those spread sheets
make an enormous amount of people VERY happy. That the dogs may
suffer from the results is apparently of little concern.

It is because of this reliance on chemical analysis that atrocities
such as the recent petfood recall can happen.

Yes to supplements, No to them as they aren't needed.
*****
Our dogs can generally get from an appropriate raw diet what they
need for optimal health. The closer the menu is to whole prey, the
less important supplements are. The more one relies on supplements,
the more one has to rely on supplements.

Supplemental Omega 3 fatty acids from fish body oil are often
recommened to combat the excess of Omega 6 in the typical "feedlot
beef, factory chicken" diet. But that's really about it for a
healthy or reasonably healthy dog.

Obviously, ailing dogs with specific needs should get supplements
specific to the ailment. We don't recommend "just in case" or "on
account" supplementing.

If you haven't looked into these two websites, check 'em out!
http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net

Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: pork heads - keep how long ? Smash ? Elk heads ?
Posted by: "Tracy" tracy.ramey@sbcglobal.net veganmomma1
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:45 pm ((PDT))

"I'm thinking that the best approach to the brain would either be with a
sledgehammer blow to the back of the skull, or a prybar to disarticulate
the lower jaw, or both."

Don't want to waste time or take up space here, but I have to say...some
of these posts are soooo hard to read for a vegan! I'm gonna need
therapy after this one. LOL [:O]

Tracy

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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Freecycling Meat
Posted by: "Debra Bammel" DBammel@idahopower.com debbammel
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:45 pm ((PDT))

I have gotten some "freecycled meat" from some coworkers.
I got several packages of "deer breakfast sausage".
I am hesitatant to feed this as I thought it might contain
added spices. Thoughts....Debra

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Freecycling Meat
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 2:30 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Debra Bammel" <DBammel@...> wrote:
>
> I am hesitatant to feed this as I thought it might contain
> added spices. Thoughts....Debra

I get a good deal of free deer meat but, like you, I'm hesitant to
feed the sausage. I have smelled it and you can smell the added stuff
in it. So far I haven't fed it althought I'm not sure it would be
harmful. If it doesn't kill humans, it shouldn't kill dogs.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Freecycling Meat
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi, When I make venison sausage I have sage, and mace/nutmeg and some people put red pepper in there's, but generally there are now perservative in it. Just spices. Linda

carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote: --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Debra Bammel" <DBammel@...> wrote:
>
> I am hesitatant to feed this as I thought it might contain
> added spices. Thoughts....Debra

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Slippery Elm
Posted by: "pitbullanholder" pitbullanholder@yahoo.com pitbullanholder
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:45 pm ((PDT))

I am currently using Slippery Elm after all three dogs showed signs of
digestive upset. The kind I picked up goes in their water bowl. What
I would like to know is...is it bad to keep it in their water even if
they seemed to be doing better?

Angela

Messages in this topic (14)
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9a. grocery store slump
Posted by: "elizabeth vreeland" elivree@yahoo.com elivree
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:47 pm ((PDT))

Hi. I've been successfully raw-feeding for 1 yr now! Yaaaaay! However, I have been lazily(and expensively, I know) picking up all of Syg's food at the grocery store. I feed a variety of chicken,beef, pork, turkey, lamb parts such as ribs, quarters, whole
(chicken and turkey--which is not All parts,as u know),necks, thighs, feet (chicken), sometimes tongue(cow), just meat, etc... all things you can get at the grocery store. Once a week or so she gets an organ meal which I've mixed whichever animal's kidneys, spleen,or gizzards with liver. I follow the guidelines provided here for ratios. I
also try to get the hormone-free, free-range when possible. I have just contacted my co-op group(whom I've never ordered from yet) for an order of green tripe and trachea. Sygne is doing GREAT since the big switch last year!!! (95%better w/ allergies-licking of feet,itchy n
flaky skin, ear infections, throwing up, warm-nose,etc...) She is sooo much more comfortable, very active, and everyone comments on her shiny coat. The slight yellow tarter build-up on her molars is also COMPLETELY GONE! You guys helped me sooo much in the beginning!! However; after working out the initial kinks, I've been on auto pilot. I understand that the idea is to feed a Varied Whole Prey Model diet and I feel like I am definately falling short. I do not supplement and I think they receive a lot of important things
from the other parts which are absent in her diet. She HAS had a couple other pieces and whole prey in there..like rabbit(but I don'teven think it had a head). My question is...How much am I screwing up and short-changing her? Is this acceptable, mediocre, or just wrong? Are there any long-term or short-term risks to her health sofar because of my leisure?
Thank you.
Liz

---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: grocery store slump
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, elizabeth vreeland <elivree@...>
wrote:
>
> My question is...How much am I screwing up and short-changing
> her?

NOT one little bit. Find something important to worry about. You
are doing good here.

> Is this acceptable, mediocre, or just wrong?

Much better than "acceptable".

> Are there any long-term or short-term risks to her health
> sofar because of my leisure?

Nope, you are doing great. Stop worrying.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: So far so good, but have a couple of questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 2:04 pm ((PDT))

Yes, Linda, 'spoiling' our critters with raw is the best way! And its
the most fun to be had by all, too! You can chop up teeny bits of raw
heart & gizzard to keep in the fridge for those in between meal
special treats, too.
Since Giz is a tiny dog, cornish hens would be appropriate. I had
thoughts of saying 'yes' without asking his size in my last post, and
visualized me feeding my 130 lb Newfy girl dozens of those little
birds at a time, and ending up in the poor house! lol
He should however, be able to manage regular chicken bones, too. You
can introduce bone at any time, the softer ones to crunch and digest
ones are easier at first, of course. As I remember, cornish hens don't
come with the 'giblet' packet, so when you start feeding whole cut up
chickens, toss in the heart, gizzards and a little bit of the liver (
a pinky fingernail sized piece) with their meals. As you started with
boneless meats, you do know that feeding more meat than bone including
boneless, or meatymeat meals is a good thing.
Feeding outside is very OK, unless and until it rains. Or snows. Or is
so cold and windy outside you wished you never started that plan. I'd
have a 'rain date' option in place for those days.
Feeding boneless breast, or any meatymeat for some days in a row can
result in no poops. The raw is so very digestible that there is
virtually 'no' residue. Feeding bone, or organ with the meat (: 0 be
careful with that) will push whats inside, out. Meatymeat poops, when
they happen, are usually very soft, even runny. NPs.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> HI,
> Giz is a tiny toy poodle and he weighs 5.2 pounds and is 7 years
old. Sassafrass is 10 months old cat at 6#'s. I have not started
feeding any cornish hen yet. They are just on chicken breast, so far.
I don't know for sure when I should be introducing bone. I had the
hens so that is what I was going to start with. I thought I would
feed sass as usual on the washer and feed Giz his first "bone" meal
out in the yard while I am working in flower garden. And again, if
Giz doesn't poop tomorrow do I need to be worried. On another note,
they are both more contented than I have ever seen them. I am soo
glad I am doing this. After all the years that I have been spoiling
the "wrong way".
>
> Thanks,
>
> Linda

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: So far so good, but have a couple of questions
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 2:30 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the help. We just had a "poop" and it was pretty solid, and not as much and much lighter in color, so guess I should start with some bone in chicken. When it rains or get to cold I will feed him in his kennel. Linda
Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote: Yes, Linda, 'spoiling' our critters with raw is the best way! And its
the most fun to be had by all, too! You can chop up teeny bits of raw
heart & gizzard to keep in the fridge for those in between meal
special treats, too.
Since Giz is a tiny dog, cornish hens would be appropriate. I had
thoughts of saying 'yes' without asking his size in my last post, and
visualized me feeding my 130 lb Newfy girl dozens of those little
birds at a time, and ending up in the poor house! lol
He should however, be able to manage regular chicken bones, too. You
can introduce bone at any time, the softer ones to crunch and digest
ones are easier at first, of course. As I remember, cornish hens don't
come with the 'giblet' packet, so when you start feeding whole cut up
chickens, toss in the heart, gizzards and a little bit of the liver (
a pinky fingernail sized piece) with their meals. As you started with
boneless meats, you do know that feeding more meat than bone including
boneless, or meatymeat meals is a good thing.
Feeding outside is very OK, unless and until it rains. Or snows. Or is
so cold and windy outside you wished you never started that plan. I'd
have a 'rain date' option in place for those days.
Feeding boneless breast, or any meatymeat for some days in a row can
result in no poops. The raw is so very digestible that there is
virtually 'no' residue. Feeding bone, or organ with the meat (: 0 be
careful with that) will push whats inside, out. Meatymeat poops, when
they happen, are usually very soft, even runny. NPs.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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11a. Accidently left chicken breasts on counter overnite
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 2:08 pm ((PDT))

Can I still use them or do I have to throw them away?

Linda

---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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11b. Re: Accidently left chicken breasts on counter overnite
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 2:14 pm ((PDT))

To your dog, or cat? sure thing.
Hubbies don't like 'em that way, tho'
*grin*
TC, Linda!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Can I still use them or do I have to throw them away?
>
> Linda

Messages in this topic (4)
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11c. Re: Accidently left chicken breasts on counter overnite
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Linda Edgington <lindagail849@...>
wrote:
>
> Can I still use them or do I have to throw them away?
>

Feed'em.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

11d. Re: Accidently left chicken breasts on counter overnite
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 4:12 pm ((PDT))

Linda Edgington <lindagail849@...> wrote:
>
> Can I still use them or do I have to throw them away?
*****
Oh heavens, don't toss them! Feed them to your dogs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 3:22 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Casey and Carol for this discussion! It helps to know that
giving her raw food did not precipitate the problems and that Yes, I do
need to modify the diet now that we have a medical issues.

Oh, and someome asked if she had been given any vaccines and yes - she
had been given a Lepto vaccine prior to theonset of all of this. Do you
think that can cause kidney problems? After you mentioned it I googled
Lepto vaccinosis kidney and I didn't find anything that specfically
mentioned the kidneys being affected by the vaccine....

Thanks!
Christine

Casey Post wrote:
>> Well.....yes and no. Commercial, for sure, would not be a good thing.
>> But
>> there ARE problems with feeding raw without really careful balancing.
>> It's
>> the phosphorous that needs to be limited and it's hard to get enough high
>> digestible protein and calories into a kidney dog and keep that
>> phosphorous
>> limited on a meat, and espeically meat and bones, diet. For more info go
>> to
>> k9kidneydiet list.
>
> Carol,
>
> Yes, many dogs in renal failure need to have their phos reduced, that's
> true. But the question was whether or not switching to raw will precipitate
> renal failure and I maintain that no, it will not.
>
>
>> I'd hate to see someone go off with a dog in kidney failure thinking that
>> they could just feed as usual when diet could make such a difference.
>> This
>> list is for mostly healthy dogs, yes?
>
> I imagine that many of us are dealing with less than healthy animals in one
> form or another...but your point is well-taken that some dietary
> modifications may need to be made for medical conditions.
>
>
>> Hope this is ok for the list. Just taking the lead from reading the
>> above.
>
>
> Of course. You have a concern about someone misinterpreting what I wrote
> and you clarified. Clarifications always welcome.
>
> Casey
>
>
>
>
>
> All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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12b. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

Don't know for sure about kidney issues, but this is one of the vaccs that
is not recommended because of the high incidence of adverse reactions. You
might find some info here...Christie has a lengthy article about the Lepto
vacc.

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Revax.htm

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "woofwoofgrrl" <cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com>
>
> Oh, and someome asked if she had been given any vaccines and yes - she
> had been given a Lepto vaccine prior to theonset of all of this. Do you
> think that can cause kidney problems? After you mentioned it I googled
> Lepto vaccinosis kidney and I didn't find anything that specfically
> mentioned the kidneys being affected by the vaccine....

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

12c. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 4:12 pm ((PDT))

> Oh, and someome asked if she had been given any vaccines and yes - she
> had been given a Lepto vaccine prior to theonset of all of this. Do you
> think that can cause kidney problems? After you mentioned it I googled
> Lepto vaccinosis kidney and I didn't find anything that specfically
> mentioned the kidneys being affected by the vaccine....
**************

Lepto itself can cause acute renal failure (with the symptoms you describe),
so if she was at risk for lepto, I do hope that the vet addressed that early
on. Vaccination is no guarantee of protection...especially true with Lepto,
I'm afraid.

You may want to do some more research on the Lepto vaccine and adverse
reactions, just so you're aware of the risks. But we've now wandered off
topic for this board...

Casey

Messages in this topic (11)
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13. Starting raw w/Dachshunds
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))

>>I need advice and diet plan ideas for both a puppy and our adult dog. Also anyone who might have suggestions on daxi training- as they're not the easiest!<<

Catherine -- no Doxies here, but Corgis -- also long and low. A diet plan is actually quite easy (although most of us tend to complicate it much more than necessary!). For both the new puppy and your adult dog, buy a whole chicken, cut it into meal size portions and serve to the appropriate dog. Yes, it really is that easy.
Depending on the puppy's age, a meal might be quite small. For 10 wk. old Corgi pups, a chicken meal would be 1/2 of a split breast with quite a bit of meat (or a thigh, again w/ lots of meat). Their next meal would be smaller.
For my adult Corgis, a chicken meal might be either a leg or a thigh.
Once the dogs have adjusted to raw (1-2 weeks for many dogs), you can begin to add new/different proteins. You can certainly start with a meat other than chicken (pork, for example), but chicken is readily available and reasonably priced. Our Wal-Mart has whole chickens for .78/lb. every day.
Once you've added new protein, remember to add in organs, too (especially liver). Just a small amount (about the size of your thumbnail) to start with.
Feel free to ask specific questions -- folks on this list are terrific, and will gladly share their knowledge and experience!

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11756

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: pork heads - keep how long ? Smash ? Elk heads ?
From: Bearhair

2a. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
From: Margaret Martell
2b. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
From: Denise Strother
2c. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
From: wenigj

3a. Silly Question? . . . . Maybe?
From: mail4leanne
3b. Re: Silly Question? . . . . Maybe?
From: Andrea
3c. Re: Silly Question? . . . . Maybe?
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: GSD first time raw feeding
From: Margaret Martell

5a. Re: Pigs Feet left overs?
From: denise strother

6a. Re: Your thoughts as I take the plunge?
From: cresco299

7a. Re: PROBLEMS WITH GROUND EGGSHELLS, ANYONE?
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: PROBLEMS WITH GROUND EGGSHELLS, ANYONE?
From: Casey Post
7c. Re: PROBLEMS WITH GROUND EGGSHELLS, ANYONE?
From: Anndrea

8a. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
From: Casey Post
8b. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
From: metra_co

9.1. ADMIN/Re: itchy dog
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Need Help. PLEASE
From: Kathy McCusker
10b. Re: Need Help. PLEASE
From: Laura Atkinson
10c. Re: Need Help. PLEASE
From: chele519

11a. Re: Buying a full cow!
From: merril Woolf

12a. Re: Eggs gave bad gas..
From: Andrea

13a. Suppliers in So. CaL
From: mob1043
13b. Re: Suppliers in So. CaL
From: costrowski75

14. I have a new Daschund puppy
From: rhodesia22

15a. Re: So far so good, but have a couple of questions
From: Linda Edgington

Messages
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1a. Re: pork heads - keep how long ? Smash ? Elk heads ?
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:16 am ((PDT))

Lisa S. wrote:

> . . . He has still only gotten
>the back of the head eaten and most of the lower jaw, with the lower
>jaw bone mostly still there. I don't know if he will be able to get
>through the skull at all. The head is about 12 " from snout to the
>back of the ears. It weighs about 15 pounds.
>
>Would it be possible to smash the skull with my sledgehammer so he
>can get to the brain ? Should I try that ? If so, from the top,
>bottom, side ? (ew)

From the photos below,
>http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Pig/pigdom.htm
I'm thinking that the best approach to the brain would either be with a
sledgehammer blow to the back of the skull, or a prybar to disarticulate the
lower jaw, or both.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
Posted by: "Margaret Martell" zahrammm1@yahoo.com zahrammm1
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:17 am ((PDT))

K Carolyn Ramamurti <lilith23360@yahoo.com> wrote: Any and all bones from chicken, game hen, turkey, duck, and any other birds are o.k. to feed, right? And fish bones? But NOT weight-bearing bones from cows or sheep? Shoulders, ribs and anything else other than large leg bones from cows, sheep or pigs are fine, right?

*******
Carolyn -
Yes to your first question and yes to fish bones..no problems there. I don't feed weight-bearing bones or any kind of beef bone, including beef rib bones. My Dobe loves a nice big slab of beef ribs, but she ony consumes the very ends of the bones and I'll take the rest away when they're stripped clean. I consider anything pig-related edible for my dog; then again, I guess this could fall under the "know-thy-dog" kind of thing too. Some dogs can eat any kind of bone with no problems, others cannot. In my opinion, I just stay away from the weigh-bearing bones of large prey (cows, deer, elk, et.c).
Although, my dog did chip a tooth on a slab of pork ribs. Took her to the vet for that and the structure of the tooth was still fine. Just fed her boneless meals for probably a week or so. Doesn't bother her..she chews on both sides of her mouth.
Hope this is helpful.
Margaret & Zahra

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

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Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:03 am ((PDT))

I feed pork shoulders frequently. My 2 Chihuahuas and 1 Pit have no
problems. The Chis strip the meat and don't even attempt the bones,
but the Pit eats all of the bone, some of it or none of it. I'm
fortunate in that none of mine seem to be interested in chewing on
bones that aren't edible for them. Just watch them when they get to
the bone. If they chew and don't make any headway on actually eating
it, take it away. That's pretty much what I do when I have a new
foster. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "wenigj" <wenigj@...> wrote:
"Shoulders, ribs and anything else other than large leg bones from
cows, sheep or pigs are fine, right?" I just got my first pork
shoulder roast...

Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
Posted by: "wenigj" wenigj@aol.com wenigj
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 11:31 am ((PDT))

Thanks Michelle,
That is exactly what I found so I did take it away after she had
gotten the meat off. You were right about it taking longer than
chicken =) It was fun watching her figure out what to do with this new
food.
Jill W
--- Sometimes there is a piece of bone that is kind of hinged
> on by tendons and I think it is part of the leg. This seems harder to
> me than the rest of the shoulder and sometimes I take it away since
> they don't need that much bone. I don't think they'd break a tooth on
> it though.
> Michele

Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Silly Question? . . . . Maybe?
Posted by: "mail4leanne" mail4leanne@yahoo.com mail4leanne
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:17 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS, PLEASE!!!!

Hi Everyone
I have a GSD x Akita who was a rescue and right from when I got him
he's had an ear infection and been very itchy all over, I've spent a
fortune at vets to no avail trying to pin down what he was allergic
to and having him neutered. He also started to get really
aggressive to other dogs and totally out of control, he is such a
big lad that I quickly went to a behaviourist to try and deal with
him, she suggested I try raw feeding after all other ideas failed so
as I was at the stage when I'd try anything I gave it a go. That
was 2 months ago and I swear if I hadn't seen the change in him
myself I would not have believed it, his ears cleared up he no
longer constantly scratches and he's calmed down so much I can now
let him off the lead again!!!
Anyway my daft question is I was told to feed him raw meat only but
I'm not quite convinced he's getting all the nutrition he needs
vitamins etc, I do vary his diet now with chicken, lamb and beef
usually on the bone mainly he's not interested in kidney, liver or
any of the internal bits, is what he's getting enough? I would hate
to come this far for it to do him some damage?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thank You

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Silly Question? . . . . Maybe?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:51 am ((PDT))

A good raw diet consists of more than just meat. When we say meat we
mean muscle meat as well as tendons, skin, cartilage, hair, etc. In
addition, the diet should be lots of meat (around 80% if you like
numbers), some organs (10% total diet, with liver as part of that
amount), and some edible bone (the last 10%). If you feed bone in
chicken, you are taking care of the bone content. Some dogs don't
like organs, so it can take some finesse to get them to accept them.
Some options are:
1) Try freezing it - liversicles go over well with some dogs
2) Try searing it - a few seconds on either side brings out more
flavor
3) Tough love - If he doesn't eat his bit of organ, he doesn't get
dinner. Easy as that. (and no treats either)

I usually try #1 first and then jump to #3 if the dog isn't
interested. A healthy dog won't starve itself in the presence of
food, so I just wait them out.

I'm glad your boy is doing so much better, and it sounds like you are
doing fine. Let us know if you have more questions!

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mail4leanne" <mail4leanne@...>
wrote:

> Anyway my daft question is I was told to feed him raw meat only but
> I'm not quite convinced he's getting all the nutrition he needs
> vitamins etc, I do vary his diet now with chicken, lamb and beef
> usually on the bone mainly he's not interested in kidney, liver or
> any of the internal bits, is what he's getting enough? I would hate
> to come this far for it to do him some damage?

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Silly Question? . . . . Maybe?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:57 am ((PDT))

"mail4leanne" <mail4leanne@...> wrote:
> Anyway my daft question is I was told to feed him raw meat only but
> I'm not quite convinced he's getting all the nutrition he needs
> vitamins etc, I do vary his diet now with chicken, lamb and beef
> usually on the bone mainly he's not interested in kidney, liver or
> any of the internal bits, is what he's getting enough?
*****
Edible bone, organs, plenty of meat from a variety of critters. No
veggies, no grains, no vitamin pills or herbal supplements. Perhaps
a regular dose of fish body oil or salmon oil, that's it.

You're doing fine with the edible bone and critter variety, probably
aren't feeding enough meat and you certainly must get at least liver
into the kid.

If you check the list archives, you'll see many people have trouble
feeding liver and other offal to their dogs. Many suggestions for
getting through this issue are available. Please browse the archives.

Here's how to join Yahoogroups so you can access the Rawfeeding
message archives:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

How fortunate for your dog that he responded so well so quickly!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: GSD first time raw feeding
Posted by: "Margaret Martell" zahrammm1@yahoo.com zahrammm1
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:26 am ((PDT))

Star <akjstarh@yahoo.com> wrote: What would be appropriate size bones for him that is
economical? Turkey necks....???
***********************
Hi, Star
In my opinion, turkey necks are way too small for a 120 lb. dog, unless it was attached to the rest of the turkey. My suggestion to your brother would be to feed half a chicken, half a turkey, a big slab of pork ribs, whatever protein he chooses to start with, but nothing as small as just a neck-too much of a choking hazard with a dog that big.
Good luck!
Margaret & Zahra

---------------------------------
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Re: Pigs Feet left overs?
Posted by: "denise strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:02 am ((PDT))

Sure, you can feed them. I'm sure a lot of people on the list will say that things have to get way beyond the scenario you described to get to the point of being unfeedable. I know this is true for me. Some dogs like things a little riper than others. All three I've got seem to like things best about the time it's getting to the "Whew!!!" stage for me. Denise

Bearhair <bearhair@spamcop.net> wrote: Pam wrote:
...can I still give the pigs feet again after having been left out for so long and refrozen..????

I'd go ahead and feed the remainder in a couple of days.

Lora
Evanston, IL

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Your thoughts as I take the plunge?
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:27 am ((PDT))

> Sorry, it looks like your post got lost in the group.......
> How has your dog doing now?

Thank you for the replies tottime47 and Andrea!

She seems to be taking to the diet like a champ! In the past when she
had decided to take a stroll through the woods, she often came back
with bits of deer (Legs and feet mostly) but has never been any worse
for the ware, so I figured her stomach is more than ready for a
variety of meats. Over the past week I have been feeding Chicken
Quarters, Spare Ribs, Pork Hawks and lamb shoulder (Basically anything
that was priced to sell at the local grocery store).

Her stools seem well formed. They are khaki in color and have a clay
type texture. But there is considerably more stool volume than I
believe I should be seeing.

But I think it is still to early to draw any conclusions (1 week on
RAW today)so I will stick with it and take your suggestions to heart!

Oh yea, one more thing...No amount of reading on these posts can
prepare you for the deadly, unearthly, noxious farts emanating from my
poor sweet Bailey. If anyone truly wants to find weapons of mass
destruction, They should try looking at the little hair ball curled up
on my couch!

Jeffrey
Cresco, PA

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: PROBLEMS WITH GROUND EGGSHELLS, ANYONE?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:34 am ((PDT))

"Anndrea" <anndreae@...> wrote:
>
> Can cats have beef and beef bones???
*****
Cats can have beef if they keep it down, it's a cat by cat thing. Cats
can work on beef bones, too; doesn't matter if they eat the bone or
not. My cat can't eat much beef but she seems to be able to strip a
rib bone. That she doesn't eat any beef bone is not an issue.

(Sorry if I am hijacking, but this thread
> reminded me to ask)
*****
The way you change the subject without having to hijack the thread is
to change the subject line. Just change it to whatever topic you
want. Ideally you should post a brand new post altogether but changing
the subject line is better than doing nothing to alert your reader that
you have gee'd when everyone else is still haw'ing.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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7b. Re: PROBLEMS WITH GROUND EGGSHELLS, ANYONE?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))

> Can cats have beef and beef bones???

Beef, yes. Beef on the bone, yes. But don't expect a cat to be able to eat
any part of the beef bone...

> If so, how would I go about getting the bones to edible pieces if I
> don't have a grinder? (Sorry if I am hijacking, but this thread
> reminded me to ask)

You don't. You feed something with edible bone in it - smaller animals.

>
> Right now I have a little bit of venison, a LOT of different cuts of
> beef (including ground hamburger), a tiny bit of fish, and a little
> pork. Do I have anything they can have? I may not be able to start
> full time raw feeding for a while yet, so I just want to do a slow start.

They can have all of it. If they're still on part-commercial foods right
now, that's fine, you don't have to make yourself crazy worrying about
edible bone for them. In future though, you'll want to look for fish,
chicken, turkey, quail, rabbit, and anything else that has some cat-edible
bone in it.

> Yet another reason for my slow start. I gave them tastes of raw
> chicken and some ate it enthusiastically. I just need to find out if
> other meats are safe for cats. Also...does freezer burn matter for
> cats? I know it doesn't for dogs.

Some cats are put off by it, just so you're aware. Of course, some cats are
put off by the color of the sky some days, so what are you going to do?

Casey

Messages in this topic (7)
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7c. Re: PROBLEMS WITH GROUND EGGSHELLS, ANYONE?
Posted by: "Anndrea" anndreae@yahoo.com anndreae
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 10:22 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Any meat your cat will eat is acceptable and appropriate.
> I wouldn't worry about finding beef bones your cats can eat. About
> 80%, 10% bone, 10% organ, yeah? Not every meal needs a bone in it. i
> wouldn't grind, I'd hack the meat into small enough bits for them to
> find edible, no more than that. And go bigger and bigger over time.
> Freezer burn meat for cats? Dunno, feed some, let us know if they'll
> eat it. It can't hurt 'em.
> When you do buy, try some beef or veal heart for meatymeat meals. Dogs
> love them, and they are good for cats, if they'll eat it.
> ime, hubbys don't like raw, but I may be wrong ; )

Thanks Giselle!

Yeah, it has sounded like hubbies are tougher to accept raw than dogs
and cats are (YES, I know that sounded sexist and was not meant to
be...maybe I should have said "spouses" or "S.O."s, but it really does
seem to be hubbies).

I know not every meal needs a bone in it, but right now I don't think
I have ANY bones they can eat. It is all beef and pork. I just
wondered if I smash the crap out of the beef or pork bones, if they
could have them.

Well, if freezer burn can't hurt them, I'll get them to eat it! No, I
would NEVER let them go 24 hours without eating (<my legal
disclaimer...LOL).

Thanks again! I will be trying beef with the cats very soon!

anndrea and her menagerie (6 cats, 3 dogs, 1 rat - soon to be 2 cats,
2 dogs, 1 rat)

Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:36 am ((PDT))

> Well.....yes and no. Commercial, for sure, would not be a good thing.
> But
> there ARE problems with feeding raw without really careful balancing.
> It's
> the phosphorous that needs to be limited and it's hard to get enough high
> digestible protein and calories into a kidney dog and keep that
> phosphorous
> limited on a meat, and espeically meat and bones, diet. For more info go
> to
> k9kidneydiet list.

Carol,

Yes, many dogs in renal failure need to have their phos reduced, that's
true. But the question was whether or not switching to raw will precipitate
renal failure and I maintain that no, it will not.

>
> I'd hate to see someone go off with a dog in kidney failure thinking that
> they could just feed as usual when diet could make such a difference.
> This
> list is for mostly healthy dogs, yes?

I imagine that many of us are dealing with less than healthy animals in one
form or another...but your point is well-taken that some dietary
modifications may need to be made for medical conditions.

> Hope this is ok for the list. Just taking the lead from reading the
> above.

Of course. You have a concern about someone misinterpreting what I wrote
and you clarified. Clarifications always welcome.

Casey

Messages in this topic (8)
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8b. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
Posted by: "metra_co" metraco@hotmail.com metra_co
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:50 am ((PDT))

I would periodically swap foods just to keep it interesting -
> Chicken Soup for the Dog Lovers Soul, Wellness, Merrick, Blue
Buffalo...
> She was on Blue Buffalo right before the switch to raw. So she wasn't
> affected by the recall.

You'd be surprised how many foods weren't on the official recall that
folks
reported as affecting their animals...but that's another story.

Blue Buffalo canned WAS RECALLED!!! I bought a couple cans (last
August) and got an email (in April?) from Petsmart that they were being
recalled. This was a bit after most of the other recalls. (I actually
still had one can left and returned it to them. It was programed in
their computers as recalled.) I think I read somewhere that the plant
they used added an ingredient into their food without their permission
or notice, but I'm not positive I'm remembering this part correctly.
Good luck, Metra

Messages in this topic (8)
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9.1. ADMIN/Re: itchy dog
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:42 am ((PDT))

Please take all Nzyme discussion to RawChat. Further postings to
Rawfeeding will be summarily dismissed.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (34)
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10a. Re: Need Help. PLEASE
Posted by: "Kathy McCusker" kmccusker72@hotmail.com kathym14456
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:49 am ((PDT))

---
Hi all, thanks for the replies. Being new to this, it was a reaction to clean it up. Didn't know
it would cause such anyone stess, LOL. I know better now. Kathy

In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "merril Woolf" <merril@> wrote:
> >> Shame you wasted all that good food. :-(( I'm going to be
> thinking about that all day now.
> *****
> My dogs agree.
> If one horks something up and won't re-eat it (a rarity indeed) the
> others clamor for a shot at the stuff. Except for mackerel. Mackerel
> gets horked up, it gets ignored.
>
> However, in all fairness to out-of-sorts dogs, there are times when
> vomiting indicates ill health and it behooves us as responsible dog
> owners to know what's ill health and what's over-indulgence or gluttony.
>
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (13)
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10b. Re: Need Help. PLEASE
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:58 am ((PDT))

Wait till you hear it being horked up at night! <G> My crew knows
I'm gonna holler "someone better clean that up so I don't step in it
in the morning" as, having identified the odd noise, I roll back over
and go to sleep. Of course, if the noise is close to me (as in ON my
bed) I shove the noisemaker off the bed first.

On 7/3/07, Kathy McCusker <kmccusker72@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---
> Hi all, thanks for the replies. Being new to this, it was a reaction to clean it up. Didn't know
> it would cause such anyone stess, LOL. I know better now. Kathy
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

Messages in this topic (13)
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10c. Re: Need Help. PLEASE
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 10:21 am ((PDT))

Don't feel bad. :) I did the same thing the one time my dog brought up
a huge piece of boneless pork. I thought at the time she was choking
on it and I tried to do the doggy heimlich. Then we went outside where
she finally puked it up and I had to drag her by the collar into the
house so she wouldn't eat it. Then i went out and wrapped it in trash
bags and tossed it.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy McCusker" <kmccusker72@...>
wrote:
>
> ---
> Hi all, thanks for the replies. Being new to this, it was a reaction
to clean it up. Didn't know
> it would cause such anyone stess, LOL. I know better now. Kathy

Messages in this topic (13)
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11a. Re: Buying a full cow!
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:50 am ((PDT))

although I think I might be best going halfs with a friend,
> what type of weight could I expect?I was thinking around 500lbs?
> also would a cow supply all the dogs needs without other things in the
> diet?...any thoughts on this will be greatly appreciated.
> thanks in advance.

We get cows from our rancher friend but it's not cut up so we have to do the entire
butchering ourselves. It's a LOT of work, btw.

When we do get a cow, the dogs feast on it for days and days. The first day when we get
the cow, they eat whatever they can while we are processing it.

After we are finished packaging it, we leave the dogs with the head, legs, stomach and
pelvis.
They will eat on this for days until it is just bone or stomach grass.

Since they have binged for those days, they are usually very fat and don't do much for a
few days. I usually go back to light meals of chicken after a cow feast.

I don't know whether it's good to eat only cow for weeks at a time since most of the bone
is not very edible so you'd mostly be getting organs, muscle or fat. I like to throw in
some edible bone from another source just to be sure.

As for how much you will get from a whole cow, that depends on the breed, the size of the
cow and if the rancher gives you the entire cow or only what is left after he's processed it.
The hide actually weighs a fair bit so you'd lose about 100 lbs right there. The bones are
also very heavy and mostly not edible. The intestines are also not that edible and fairly
large. The stomach has huge amounts of grass in it so you'll get about 50 lbs of waste
right there.
That being said, what you will be left with is still a huge amount even if it's a smaller cow.
An older cow or bull will give you more meat/organs/boney cuts than you can even
imagine.
Some of us on here still have "fond" memories of the 2000 lb bull.... Now THAT was a lot
of meat!
We usually get beef cows that weigh generally about 1200 lbs. Less if the cow is lean or
younger. By time all is said and done, we usually end up with about 700 - 800 lbs of
meat if you include the head etc. My dogs eat everything except for stomach grass, (they
do eat the partially digested green veg matter in the other parts of the stomach), large
bones and intestines.

>
> p.s...never got a price on sheep,but believe around £20/$40(would
> sheep be a better buy?...as can be replaced with fresh animals,..were
> as the cow will be frozen and take a while to use,..thanks Stephen.

From my experience, you get more bang for your buck with a cow.
Goats and sheep dress out much leaner than a cow. Goats less than sheep due to less fat
on the goats.
When we dress out a 140 lb goat, it takes up one shelf in the freezer. There isn't much to
them. Haven't done a sheep in a while but they wouldn't take up more than 2 shelves I
think.
Cows, on the other hand, cause you to end up buying more and more freezers.
You can't get a cow into one freezer unless you are a packaging genius.

I hope you do take the cow. You'll get your monies worth. Ask for all of the cow if
possible with exceptions being the hide and the intestines.
You get your monies worth.

Merril

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: Eggs gave bad gas..
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:51 am ((PDT))

Its possible the gas will go away. . .eventually. Geiger, my GSP, got
the kind of gas that peels paint off of walls when he first ate eggs.
It might have gotten better, or I might be getting used to the smell,
because it doesn't seem so bad anymore. He also used to get weapons
grade gas when he ate pork, but now its down to simple eye watering
smell. I've been known to feed Geiger pork or egg before family get
togethers just for the fun of watching people's reactions when he
pretends he's a skunk. It's sick, I know. (=

Andrea

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13a. Suppliers in So. CaL
Posted by: "mob1043" ynotbeastar@marykay.com mob1043
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 8:50 am ((PDT))

I live in a predominant agriculture area and we have no butchers around here, that seems
crazy to me.

Does anybody know of any suppliers that may service the southern calif area? We are using
carnicerias mostly for meat purchases and therefore am not finding that we are saving from
using the awful "K" product.

I am feeding about 15 lbs per day so I need some help here.

Thank you

Michele

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13b. Re: Suppliers in So. CaL
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:40 am ((PDT))

"mob1043" <ynotbeastar@...> wrote:
> Does anybody know of any suppliers that may service the southern
calif area?
*****
Two that come immediately to mind are
http://socalbarf.com
http://crestonvalleymeats.com/

Both seem to lean, at first glance, towards the world according to BARF
but with some judicious ordering you can do quite nicely.
Chris O

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14. I have a new Daschund puppy
Posted by: "rhodesia22" cac22@hotmail.com rhodesia22
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:20 am ((PDT))

We have a new dashound puppy arriving shortly and we have an adult
dashund. We have been concerned with feeding them commerical dry food
as with our current dashund, weight gain has been a problem. Since we
have started feeding him raw vegetables it has improved. Since finding
rawfeeding we see that raw meat is recommeded. I need advice and diet
plan ideas for both a puppy and our adult dog. Also anyone who might
have suggestions on daxi training- as they're not the easiest!

Catherine.

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15a. Re: So far so good, but have a couple of questions
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 11:03 am ((PDT))

HI,
Giz is a tiny toy poode and he weighs 5.2 pounds and is 7 years old. Sassafrass is 10 months old cat at 6#'s. I have not started feeding any cornish hen yet. They are just on chicken breast, so far. I don't know for sure when I should be introducing bone. I had the hens so that is what I was going to start with. I thought I would feed sass as usual on the washer and feed Giz his first "bone" meal out in the yard while I am working in flower garden. And again, if Giz doesn't poop tomorrow do I need to be worried. On another note, they are both more contented than I have ever seen them. I am soo glad I am doing this. After all the years that I have been spoiling the "wrong way".

Thanks,

Linda

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