[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11758

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: I have a rescue dobie
From: mary
1b. Re: I have a rescue dobie
From: mary
1c. Re: I have a rescue dobie
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: So far so good, but have a couple of questions
From: Bearhair

3a. Liver/Kidney Enzyme Levels
From: Dayna Dreger
3b. Re: Liver/Kidney Enzyme Levels
From: Casey Post
3c. Re: Liver/Kidney Enzyme Levels
From: Dayna Dreger

4a. how much bone does a puppy need?
From: temy1102
4b. Re: how much bone does a puppy need?
From: Sandee Lee
4c. Re: how much bone does a puppy need?
From: temy1102

5a. licking but not eating.
From: Jenna Mahoney
5b. Re: licking but not eating.
From: Sandee Lee
5c. Re: licking but not eating.
From: Jenna Mahoney
5d. Re: licking but not eating.
From: betty hinson

6a. Re: sources?
From: antarpremal

7a. Re: Buying a full cow!
From: Bearhair
7b. Re: Buying a full cow!
From: woofwoofgrrl

8. question about pork legs
From: Vickie

9a. Re: WOW thanks for all the great help...
From: linoleum5017

10. Dog ate a seashell...problem?
From: wisslewj

11. Here's hoping..........
From: Linda Edgington

12a. mechanically cut bone
From: tamarabajema
12b. Re: mechanically cut bone
From: Sandee Lee

13a. deworming
From: tamarabajema
13b. Re: deworming
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
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1a. Re: I have a rescue dobie
Posted by: "mary" dobesrcool@cox.net dobesrcool
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))

Sandee
Thank you so much for the info so I can buy the whole chicken.
Mary

Mary,

The warning for weight bearing bones only applies to critters who have some
weight to bear....like moose, elk, cow, etc. Chicken legs are fine!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mary" <dobesrcool@cox.net>

> I thought that we are not to feed like chicken legs & thighs,because
they are weight bareing bones.Confused
> please help

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: I have a rescue dobie
Posted by: "mary" dobesrcool@cox.net dobesrcool
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))

Chris O
Thank you so much I will get to the store soon and watch for sales on.Chicken & beef are not enought.
Mary

"mary" <dobesrcool@...> wrote:
>
> I thought that we are not to feed like chicken legs &
thighs,because they are weight bareing bones.
*****
The weight commercial chickens bear is not much and very brief. Fyers
grow quick and die young. Their legs and thighs are barely bones.

The legs and thighs you want to be skeptical of are those that tote
around large animals like cows, buffalo, elk, giraffes, elephants, yaks
and other Big Critters. When an animal gets to as much as 2000 pounds
and its legs have to support it (sometimes at a run) for a year or
longer, the bones are dense and strong and made to last far longer than
we let them.

Pigs, goat, lamb (maybe sheep), chicken, turkeys, quail, game hens--all
generally provide edible legs bones.
Chris O

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: I have a rescue dobie
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:18 pm ((PDT))

Absolutely, Mary...that's the best way to feed chicken! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mary" <dobesrcool@cox.net>

> Sandee
> Thank you so much for the info so I can buy the whole chicken.
> Mary
>
>
> Mary,
>
> The warning for weight bearing bones only applies to critters who have
some
> weight to bear....like moose, elk, cow, etc. Chicken legs are fine!

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: So far so good, but have a couple of questions
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

Linda wrote:

>Thanks for the help. We just had a "poop" and it was pretty solid, and not as much and much lighter in color, so guess I should start with some bone in chicken. When it rains or get to cold I will feed him in his kennel.

Linda, that's all you're going to get - poop from raw-fed dogs is tiny
compared to the same dog on kibble. It's all digested, like it should be.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Liver/Kidney Enzyme Levels
Posted by: "Dayna Dreger" dld842@mail.usask.ca giosheltie
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:02 pm ((PDT))

My curiosity has struck and I would love some more opinions on this.

I recently took my 5 year old male Sheltie in to have his thyroid
tested. The vet ran a CBC and chem panel prior to the T4 test to
determine a baseline as to how his health is overall. Everything came
back normal ... thyroid function on the mid-high end of normal, blood
count and chem panel great. The only thing she noted was that there
was one kidney enzyme and one liver enzyme that were at the high edge
of normal. I'm confident that it is nothing to be concerned about. He
was in at the vet at the end of February when he began having seizures
(no cause was found, raw diet seems to be helping YAY!) and they did
every test imaginable, including abdominal ultrasound and x-ray that
showed all vital organs as in perfect health.

Anyways, that is the background to my curiosity.

The morning that he had his bloodwork done, I had fed him breakfast
that consisted of beef liver and beef kidney, in addition to some beef
lung and a hunk of pork, 2-4 hours prior to the blood test (I know,
not too smart, but when booking the appointment they never indicated
to do otherwise). A few questions stem from that:

1) Do beef liver and kidney contain high-ish levels of enzymes, or are
they just produced in the organs and immediately excreted in a living
animal?
2) Would a blood test on a dog detect enzymes that originated in a
different species (ie. cattle). I know that many hormones and enzymes
share high homology between species, so would a chem panel possibly
detect enzymes from the liver and kidney in his breakfast after
absorption?

Thanks
--
Dayna

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Liver/Kidney Enzyme Levels
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:08 pm ((PDT))

> 1) Do beef liver and kidney contain high-ish levels of enzymes, or are
> they just produced in the organs and immediately excreted in a living
> animal?
> 2) Would a blood test on a dog detect enzymes that originated in a
> different species (ie. cattle). I know that many hormones and enzymes
> share high homology between species, so would a chem panel possibly
> detect enzymes from the liver and kidney in his breakfast after
> absorption?

Dayna,

No, it doesn't work like this. Those numbers on the chem panel would likely
have been higher no matter what you fed. The process of digestion raises
some blood levels naturally as part of the process...so if you'd fed organ
meats or toast, it's the same (ignoring the obvious fact that toast isn't
good for dogs, but there you go).

Just remember next time you run bloods to fast for at least 8-10 hours
before the draw, since the "normals" are based on fasting levels and eating
anything before a draw will make a few of the numbers look wonky.

FWIW.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Liver/Kidney Enzyme Levels
Posted by: "Dayna Dreger" dld842@mail.usask.ca giosheltie
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Casey,

I just thought it was curious that the items that were a tad bit off
were from organs that were fed just a few hours prior. I would have
been tickled if it worked like that! But of course, logic does dictate
otherwise.

Thanks for the clarification!

--
Dayna

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. how much bone does a puppy need?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:03 pm ((PDT))

i imagine more than mature dogs, no? the whole extra calcium for
growing babies? i'm a flintstone kid?

so i have 2 little foster babies, 4 months old. from what i've read
here, i've been feeding them 3 meals a day, just chicken thighs for
now until their poops seem consistently good. it's been 3 days, and
the boy is having mucusy diarrhea and the girl is fasting herself.
she'll only eat chicken skin, and today i fed her some beef rib meat.
so her poop remains to be seen.

upon doing a search, the mucusy poop might be caused by too much bone.
how much bone do puppies really need? i know my old guy and my
little doxie don't need nearly as much as grover does, in order to
keep poops good. but i'm not clear on the puppy thing.

tammy & foster puppies boris and nika!

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: how much bone does a puppy need?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

Tammy,

Just continue to feed prey model....bones should be approximately 10% of the
overall diet, puppy or adult! Stick with lots of meat, a little bone!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@gmail.com>

i imagine more than mature dogs, no? the whole extra calcium for
growing babies? i'm a flintstone kid?

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: how much bone does a puppy need?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:49 pm ((PDT))

but should i cut back on the bone for a little bit, while my boy puppy
adjusts? he's squirting out mucus from his fat behind.

tammy & grover who is enjoying the new puppies

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. licking but not eating.
Posted by: "Jenna Mahoney" hav.lover@yahoo.com hav.lover
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

First I want to give a huge thanks to everyone for helping me switch to
raw. I couldn't respond to every email but you know who you are. I have
2 Havanese, 9lbs and 11lbs. I have started them on chicken wings per
everyones advice. The first day they both gobbled them down. Boy!!
was I impressed!!! Today though my bigger Hav only licked his wings and
wouldn't chew them up. After awhile I picked his up and put it away.
Should I be worried.? Is this normal to sometimes eat a meal? Any
thoughts.
Jenna

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: licking but not eating.
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:45 pm ((PDT))

Jenna,

You got advice on this list to feed chicken wings? They are far too small
and bony. I would offer some nice meaty meals...bone-in chicken breasts
would be a good choice.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Jenna Mahoney" <hav.lover@yahoo.com>

First I want to give a huge thanks to everyone for helping me switch to
raw. I couldn't respond to every email but you know who you are. I have
2 Havanese, 9lbs and 11lbs. I have started them on chicken wings per
everyones advice. The first day they both gobbled them down. Boy!!
was I impressed!!! Today though my bigger Hav only licked his wings and
wouldn't chew them up. After awhile I picked his up and put it away.
Should I be worried.? Is this normal to sometimes eat a meal? Any
thoughts.

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: licking but not eating.
Posted by: "Jenna Mahoney" hav.lover@yahoo.com hav.lover
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>Sandee,
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought since my dogs are only 10lbs,
that chicken wings were a good start for them. They only need 3-5 oz
a day according to the 2-3% rule. Please correct me if I
misunderstood. I am a newbie. I will try 1/2 a breast tomorrow. Thank
you for the feed back.
Jenna

> Jenna,
>
> You got advice on this list to feed chicken wings? They are far
too small
> and bony. I would offer some nice meaty meals...bone-in chicken
breasts
> would be a good choice.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
>
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: licking but not eating.
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

what about chicken legs for 6 and 8 lb dogs Is that alright??
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me Phil 4:13

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: sources?
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "antarpremal" <antarpremal@> wrote:
> >I would love to get some wild meat, rabbit, elk,
> > deer.....not easy to come by in the suburbs.
> *****
> Have you posted your wish list to the CarnivoreFeed-Supplier list?
> It's a sister list opened specifically to help people link up with
> suppliers who have want rawfeeders want.
> Chris O
>
Ok chris I'll do that. Thanks for the reply!
Jen

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Buying a full cow!
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

Merril wrote:

>I don't know whether it's good to eat only cow for weeks at a time since most of the bone
>is not very edible so you'd mostly be getting organs, muscle or fat. I like to throw in
>some edible bone from another source just to be sure.

Anyone else thinking about building a livestock version of a turducken?

"A Turducken is a de-boned turkey stuffed with a de-boned duck, which itself
is stuffed with a small de-boned chicken. . . . Some recipes call for the
turkey to be stuffed with a chicken which is then stuffed with a duckling. It
is also called a chuckey. . . . some enthusiasts have taken it a step
further, and come up with the turduckencorpheail. This is a standard
turducken, which is then stuffed with a cornish game hen, which is then
stuffed with a pheasant, and finally stuffed with a quail. "
There is also "Osturduckencorpheail . . . Osturducken . . . gurducken . . .
hotchken . . . turgoduckmaguikenantidgeonck . . . "
"The largest recorded nested bird roast is 17 birds, attributed to a royal
feast in France in the 19th century: a bustergophechiduckneaealcockidge-
overwingailusharkolanbler (originally called a Rôti Sans Pareil, or "Roast
without equal") - a bustard stuffed with a turkey, a goose, a pheasant, a
chicken, a duck, a guinea fowl, a teal, a woodcock, a partridge, a plover, a
lapwing, a quail, a thrush, a lark, an Ortolan Bunting and a Garden Warbler.
The final bird is small enough that it can be stuffed with a single olive; it
also suggests that, unlike modern multi-bird roasts, there was no stuffing or
other packing placed in between the birds. This dish probably could not be
recreated in the modern era as many of the listed birds are now protected
species."
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turducken

"[W]hole stuffed camel is a culinary delicacy composed of a medium-sized
camel stuffed with a sheep or a lamb stuffed with other foods both animal and
plant. . . . Cooked eggs are stuffed into fish, the fish stuffed into cooked
chickens, the chickens stuffed into a roasted sheep's carcass and the sheep
stuffed into a whole camel."
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_stuffed_camel

Let's see . . . from what we typically feed, using mammals only . . .

A rabbit stuffed into a boneless goat stuffed into a boneless sheep stuffed
into a boneless pig stuffed into a boneless deer stuffed into a boneless
horse stuffed into a steer?

Did I miss anything?

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Buying a full cow!
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:49 pm ((PDT))

> "The largest recorded nested bird roast is 17 birds, attributed to a royal
> feast in France in the 19th century: a bustergophechiduckneaealcockidge-
> overwingailusharkolanbler (originally called a Rôti Sans Pareil, or "Roast
Egads! How on earth did they cook that without everyone getting food
poisoning?!?!?

> A rabbit stuffed into a boneless goat stuffed into a boneless sheep stuffed
> into a boneless pig stuffed into a boneless deer stuffed into a boneless
> horse stuffed into a steer?
>
> Did I miss anything?
You might be able to stuff all that into a buffalo.. they're pretty big!
LOL!!!
Christine
>
> Lora
> Evanston, IL
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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8. question about pork legs
Posted by: "Vickie" dals4creekside@comcast.net vivkie
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:32 pm ((PDT))

Hi all,

We just purchased a half a pig, which we asked for all the parts people
don't usually ask for. We split one of the legs in half and gave it to
the dogs. (hubby is still cussing me for that because he had to use
the saw to do it, and he did take the skin off of one half of it) The
dog that got the half with skin remaining worked on that thing for over
an hour with not much luck getting through to the meat. She got part
of the meat from the ends of it. The dog getting the skinless half had
a feast and a half LOL. My question is, how many of you feed pork legs
and how in the heck do you get that skin off it? Pork legs is not
something I would feed on a regular basis, but am just curious. She
sure did have a grand time knawing at it though. Also, I got some ox
tails on sale at an organic market, but they were cut in about 1 1/2
inch pieces. Have any of you fed these in that proportion before?
Thanks
Vickie

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: WOW thanks for all the great help...
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

Catherine,

I watch some peoples' dogs when they go away, and one of them is a
standard poodle who is amazingly thin. She gets the same response
you describe:

---. I've had at least 10 people tell me how thin she is in
> the last couple weeks.

She acts like she always has happy, energetic
> dog.

Maybe she is just an energetic dog that will be thin! The one I
watch, aptly named Nike, loves to run and can't sit still.
Moreover, if she's happy and full of energy, fahgetabout everyone
else's comments!

One last question in this long long post... Her breeder was feeding
> her pulped vegetables along with mostly chicken, tripe and ground
> beef. She didn't feed much organ meat, if any and she fed very bony
> meals from what she told me. I cut out all vegetables

YAYYYY!!!!!

>and added other meats, organs, and a lot less bone when I brought
her home.

Sounds good!

>Would herlack of proper feeding while growing have anything to do
with troubleputting on weight?

My experience is that a dog can adjust and thrive, regardless of its
past. Go for what is healthy, and give your dog time to come into
her own. Do give her lots of attention and loving, and she will be
all she was meant to be.

Be encouraged,
Lynne

Messages in this topic (16)
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10. Dog ate a seashell...problem?
Posted by: "wisslewj" wisslewj@yahoo.com wisslewj
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

Quick question guys,

My 8 lbs chihuahua ate a seashell today a few minutes ago. It was a
small little one about the size of a pea that came out of our dulse
seaweed bag. It was one of the small swirly ones that comes to a point.

I was wondering first off if there is anything poisonous to dogs in
that shell and second if this is a cause of concern or can their
stomach digest that? The end is pretty pointy and I don't want it to
puncture anything. I know bone digests well enough, but shell?

Should I give him some meat to raise stomach acid in the hopes of
digesting it or just wait for it to pass out?

Thanks
Jeff

Messages in this topic (1)
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11. Here's hoping..........
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

Everyone has a safe and wonderful 4th of July!!!

Giz and Sass

---------------------------------
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. mechanically cut bone
Posted by: "tamarabajema" tamarabajema@yahoo.ca tamarabajema
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:51 pm ((PDT))

Is it all right to feed mechanically cut bone? Such as if I am going to
have (beef, pork) steak for supper, can i cut out the bone before
cooking and feed that or is it too sharp, too hard?
t-bone steak, pork chops, etc.
I would leave on a generous amount of meat, but after he eats that is
it okay to eat the bone? He is a 4 pound dog.
thanks.
Tamara

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: mechanically cut bone
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 10:38 pm ((PDT))

Generally those bones are too sharp/too hard.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "tamarabajema" <tamarabajema@yahoo.ca>

Is it all right to feed mechanically cut bone? Such as if I am going to
have (beef, pork) steak for supper, can i cut out the bone before
cooking and feed that or is it too sharp, too hard?
t-bone steak, pork chops, etc.
I would leave on a generous amount of meat, but after he eats that is
it okay to eat the bone? He is a 4 pound dog.

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. deworming
Posted by: "tamarabajema" tamarabajema@yahoo.ca tamarabajema
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:51 pm ((PDT))

is deworming more neccessary on a raw diet, do you need to do it more
than once a year?
Tamara

Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: deworming
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 10:39 pm ((PDT))

Nope...never unless you have a known heavy infestation that is adversely
affecting the health of your dog.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "tamarabajema" <tamarabajema@yahoo.ca>

is deworming more neccessary on a raw diet, do you need to do it more
than once a year?

Messages in this topic (2)
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All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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