Feed Pets Raw Food

Monday, December 17, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12390

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: the best grinders.....
From: Giselle

2a. Duck anyone?
From: Michelle R
2b. Re: Duck anyone?
From: jennifer mcfaden
2c. Re: Duck anyone?
From: Yasuko herron
2d. Re: Duck anyone?
From: Michelle R
2e. Re: Duck anyone?
From: Heather

3a. Re: pork shoulder
From: Lauren Funaiole
3b. Re: pork shoulder
From: Sherrel Leininger
3c. Re: pork shoulder
From: Yasuko herron

4a. Because you all will understand my glee
From: Kathie Middlemiss
4b. I do understand!
From: mozookpr

5a. Re: Almost raw for humans
From: SLib700@aol.com

6.1. Re: New to this list
From: Sherrel Leininger
6.2. Re: New to this list
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Looking for peoples experience
From: merril Woolf
7b. Re: Looking for peoples experience
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Question
From: ncrnrgrl
8b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Question
From: Yasuko herron

9a. Re: throwing up deer meat
From: Sherrel Leininger

10a. Re: chicken liver
From: Yasuko herron

11a. Re: Finding meat
From: Sherrel Leininger
11b. Re: Finding meat
From: Yasuko herron

12a. Re: Getting the liver down
From: Sai Simonson
12b. Re: Getting the liver down
From: Renate

13a. Re: fasting question
From: Nora Lenz


Messages
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1a. Re: the best grinders.....
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:53 pm ((PST))

Marvelous news, Michelle!

TC
Giselle

On Dec 17, 2007 7:24 PM, Michelle R <crested_dog8@yahoo.com> wrote:

> LOL Well...all the talk about grinders lately, I just have to share
> this. I have cresteds.. several hairless and very toothless cresteds. I have
> one, I swear to goodness, if she has 4 teeth in her head, shes lucky.
> Tonite, I will have you folks know she took on a duck drumstick and finished
> the whole thing. I kept checking, because usually she leaves the bigger
> pieces of bone because she hasn't been able to handle them. I guess it just
> took a while for her to figure it out, and/or build up her jaw strength to
> be able to do it, but she ate that whole leg...bone and all!!!!! My little
> toothless wolves!!!
> :-)
>
> Michelle Radcliff
> Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
> http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html
>
>
>


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Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Duck anyone?
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:42 pm ((PST))

I know duck is usually real pricey, but, recently the little shop near where I work as had it for 99. /pound Im THRILLED my dogs LOVE duck, so they are pretty happy with me too!
It comes from Badger Farms, which is supposed to be in California, I googled it and havent come up with anything so far...but you folks In Cali, it may be a good lead on really cheap duck..dunno why its so cheap, but the meat is very nice looking and it smells fresh. On Friday (payday) Im going back and buy them out...... :-)
If anyone wants, I can get you the address information off the package and maybe you can contact the farm direct and have another link a good protein source.

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html


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Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Duck anyone?
Posted by: "jennifer mcfaden" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:00 pm ((PST))

I love to get the information I think my pack chicken out we did not get any deer from hunters this year. though they have taught and kill several rabbits that got into there pens this winter.

Jennifer McFaden
Free Spirit Kennel of Virginia

www.freespiritkennelofva.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Michelle R <crested_dog8@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:39:36 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Duck anyone?

I know duck is usually real pricey, but, recently the little shop near where I work as had it for 99. /pound Im THRILLED my dogs LOVE duck, so they are pretty happy with me too!
It comes from Badger Farms, which is supposed to be in California, I googled it and havent come up with anything so far...but you folks In Cali, it may be a good lead on really cheap duck..dunno why its so cheap, but the meat is very nice looking and it smells fresh. On Friday (payday) Im going back and buy them out...... :-)
If anyone wants, I can get you the address information off the package and maybe you can contact the farm direct and have another link a good protein source.

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocitie s.com/crested_ dog8/mengshihome .html

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: Duck anyone?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:39 pm ((PST))

Hi,Jennifer. Do you live in VA?? I live in VA and I feed Duck too.

I got it from Giant,6lb bird. I found that the shopper sell Duck around 3dollars per pound andsame brand that I got from Giant.

Also,Asian store maybe other try to look too.That CA's Duck sounds so nicely price but when I asked about Trip to tripe.com people(based in CA),shipping fee to VA was 57 dollars by DHL.So,considering the shipping Fee,maybe grocery store end up cheaper than asking far away farm to ship it to here.

Oh,also,I think if I remember right,PA hare today might had it on site too;the whole Duck.I know they have couple of whole birds..The shipping fee from them usually be around 20 dollars for me.Not too bad.

But be careful when you feed Duck.When I fed Duck with skin as I usually do,she woke me up at 2am and did major major diarrhea.She was miserable..

I did combo meal with chicken and she did fine and next round,I did just Duck but without skin.Andnow,she can handle 2thumb fingers sized skin on meat.I don't try feeding with all skin on meat yet for her.

Just info for you from my experience in Duck feeding although your dog may do fine though.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (5)
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2d. Re: Duck anyone?
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:57 pm ((PST))

well, this is the closest I can get to the actual address. Its listed as being grown by Badger Farms, but processed by woodland farms, but no link is listed. All I can figure is perhaps one or the other, or both, went out of buisness and these are leftovers?
http://www.ansci.umn.edu/poultry/student_resources/duckco.htm

All those farms listed are inspected or approved or whatever by the U of MN...

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html


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Messages in this topic (5)
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2e. Re: Duck anyone?
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:57 pm ((PST))

I get duck from Walmart for $1.39/lb I think it is. My dog has no
problems with skin either. He's tummy is so tough he eats whole meals
of organ once a week and no diarrhea but give him grains and he's a
sick dog. Both Amos and my kitty, Waverli LOVE duck. I have to make
sure I keep it on hand from now on.

Heather

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: pork shoulder
Posted by: "Lauren Funaiole" LFUNAIOL@SIMIVALLEY.ORG lfunaiol
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:43 pm ((PST))

Hi Jess,
The white stuff is fat and skin. It's fine for your dog and will help clean teeth. I don't worry about freezing pork as I have read that all carcasses are shipped frozen anyway. Pork ranks second to chicken in my 4 dogs' diet and they do great on it. I buy whatever is on sale: picnic roast, shoulder, cheek meat, or spare ribs and have never paid more than $0.99 a pound for it.

Lauren Funaiole

>>> "spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@gmail.com> 12/17/2007 3:56 PM >>>

So... I'm finally feeding pork, despite (irrational) fears of trich.
It's just too cheap, and red, to pass up.

My dog didn't seem to love it when I first offered it, but now he's
eagerly munching away. My question is, is all that white stuff lining
the shoulder fat or skin or something else? It looks... strange.

Also, I didn't bother to freeze it first. Do you all usually freeze
pork before feeding?
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3b. Re: pork shoulder
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:18 pm ((PST))

I have not fed ANY pork to my dogs since one of my min pin almost died of 1 bite of pork chop. It has been many years ago and I no longer remember the explaination for it but it was almost as if she was poisioned by it.

I know many people who feed the dried pigs ears. But I never have.

But you are telling me it is ok to feed raw pork???

Sherrel (gulp)


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3c. Re: pork shoulder
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:39 pm ((PST))

>you are telling me it is ok to feed raw pork???

Yes,dogs are fine with raw pork.Mine love pork.Just don't feed tiny Pork chop bone.It is too small and sharp edge and not good one to give.

You maybe wondering about hmm,I cannot spell but parasite thing right? If pork comes within US,you are fine.No need to freeze too.

and, I don't feed Cow ear or pork ear treats,they are too fatty.

I feed Lamb ear,much softer and easy on tum and less fat and my dog go nuts when I use it as Find it game reward.

yassy


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4a. Because you all will understand my glee
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:43 pm ((PST))

... at picking up 120 pounds of chicken leg quarters for $68.00!!

I also got three huge beef hearts for $8.50 and some pork kidney.

Roughly 21 days of food for my three dogs for under $100!

My non raw-feeding friends (everyone I know ;-/ ) don't understand why
this should make me happy when they can pick up a 50 pound bag of beef
flavored cardboard chips for $39.95.

Kathie, mom to Jake, Max and Ruby


Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. I do understand!
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:19 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Kathie Middlemiss
<geekgirl717@...> wrote:
>
> ... at picking up 120 pounds of chicken leg quarters for $68.00!!
>
> I also got three huge beef hearts for $8.50 and some pork kidney.
>
> Roughly 21 days of food for my three dogs for under $100!
>
> My non raw-feeding friends (everyone I know ;-/ ) don't understand
why
> this should make me happy when they can pick up a 50 pound bag of
beef
> flavored cardboard chips for $39.95.
>
> Kathie, mom to Jake, Max and Ruby
>

I love a bargain!

Doing the math, it seems that this should be a good argument for the
economics of raw feeding.

Gotta wonder how long that cardboard lasts...

Nice score, Kathie!

Wendy, grocery store hunter

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Almost raw for humans
Posted by: "SLib700@aol.com" SLib700@aol.com annettedeutsch
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:43 pm ((PST))

Hey where I'm from we love our Beef Tartar ;)
Annette.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


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Messages in this topic (2)
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6.1. Re: New to this list
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:43 pm ((PST))

Thanks,

But can someone explain "prey model diet".

My girls are already shiny and muscled but I am looking forward to seeing the changes happen.

I am not very good with numbers how do I know 80 - 10 - 10 % is acheived? I have begun feeding some raw but have not gone compeletely raw. Still have to feed up the cooked that I have made up. But the girls are thinking they can live with real, raw meat.

We are kidding about it making them aggressive Right?

Sherrel

Hi Sherrel,

I have fed two dobie girls a prey model diet for quite a long time now. Both have done wonderful on the diet. We go to our local dog park quite a bit, and my dobies are always the leanest, shiniest, and most muscular of the dobermans that come to the park. I feed the diet recommended by this list: 80% meat, 10% edible bone, and 10% organ meat. It's simple, convenient, natural, and the dogs love it. My dogs eat in their crates (no pad or anything to get greasy) and they clean the floors up with their tongues when done.

Feed raw, you won't regret it!

Lauren Funaiole

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6.2. Re: New to this list
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:08 pm ((PST))

Sherrel,

Prey model simply means feeding according to the natural prey of a
carnivore, mainly large ungulates....deer, elk, moose, etc. Don't worry too
much about the numbers...just feed lots of red meat, a little edible bone
and organs and they will be fine.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sherrel Leininger" <meawolf50@yahoo.com>

> But can someone explain "prey model diet".
>
> My girls are already shiny and muscled but I am looking forward to seeing
the changes happen.
>
> I am not very good with numbers how do I know 80 - 10 - 10 % is acheived?
I have begun feeding some raw but have not gone compeletely raw. Still have
to feed up the cooked that I have made up. But the girls are thinking they
can live with real, raw meat.

Messages in this topic (41)
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7a. Re: Looking for peoples experience
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:43 pm ((PST))

> Gave my dogs each a huge cow tongue, along with sheep heart, and pig
> trotter for the meal last Sunday. Ate the heart - easy peasy, grabbed
> the tongue and took outside for a good workout. Came back inside, got
> the pig trotter, back outside and then one of the dogs put his trotter
> down, rolled onto his back, kicked his legs in the air and seemed to
> shout for joy 'hey this is the life man' and proceeded to do that for a
> few minutes before nibbling for a bit on the trotter and then walking
> away from it. The others followed suit - a few very satisfied dogs with
> full bellies that night (and trotters to finish off another time). It
> was a joy to see....

> Sue C, NZ

That sounds like my lot.
I keep trying to tell them that they don't realize how lucky they are. They get all these
cool foods and get to gnaw away on the best bones in the land.
Meal times for my guys can be anything and everything. They never know what they are
going to get but they always think I bring home the best food ever. The great white
hunter thing an'all.

Never had a problem either to answer the original posters questions.
Pro's: Happy healthy dogs with no problems.
Cons: Buying freezers. Electric bills. Tracking down meat deals. Hoping CSI doesn't
come in here with a blue light or luminol.

Merril


Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Looking for peoples experience
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:01 pm ((PST))

>Cons: Buying freezers. Electric bills

Hi.I too bought freezer but it really convenient and useful to stock up what I liketo feed and I just stock up when things are out of stock and i do not buy things all of the time.That is pro for me although I bought freezer.

As for Electric bill,mine got 10-20 dollars more than before but not so much.My freezeris upright freezer and it hasEnergy star on it so,it is not using as much power as normal one does. so,good to try looking for freezer with the mark on it.

yassy


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8a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Question
Posted by: "ncrnrgrl" jcraver1@nc.rr.com ncrnrgrl
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:43 pm ((PST))

Hi Brandi,
I order frequently from a place in Tennesee and a place in PA. I have
the same problem with beef here and finding a variety of organs, I
don't feed a lot of organ meat (maybe once or twice a week), but
struggle finding different organs.. so I order. I've never had a
problem.

Hare-Today.com sells beef heart nicely cut into ~2 x 6" strips, I
actually give it to my dogs right out of the freezer (heart-sicles!)
like treats and also has beef trim that comes the same way.

I get Bison Liver and pork brains from Prey4Pets.com - all of their
stuff has arrived well frozen. I get whole prey from them too - whole
chickens and sometimes quail.

Paying for shipping sucks, but still worth it in my book.
Jen C.


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm having problems finding a variety of meats - beef here is very
expensive
> - I can't find anything beef wise for under $2.00/lb - pork, turkey
and
> chicken are they only really protein that I can get a hold of. I
can get
> lamb, duck if I want pay big bucks... my question is this.. how
many have
> your meats shipped into you from out of town or out of state? Do
you have
> success with it? I still have some googling to do about seeing if
I can get
> meat shipped to me from maybe Tulsa or Oklahoma City...
>
> I read from another post about Green Tripe - I looked on the
website that
> Chris gave and wondered if I order from them will the meat be
alright
> shipped from California to Oklahoma?
>
> Thank you!!!
> --
> Brandi
> Bartlesville, Ok
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:00 pm ((PST))

>I get Bison Liver and pork brains from Prey4Pets.com - all of their
stuff has arrived well frozen.

I ordered Buffalo and some pork from there in KY in July or so;during summer but all meat arrived room temp or little warm... It took 2 days from KY to VA if I remember right.
They don't use Gelpak so,I recommend if you live more than 1 day shipping area,try order in cold month no summer time.

That way,meat will be still froszen or cold.

I never order in summer I decided.

yassy


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9a. Re: throwing up deer meat
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:43 pm ((PST))

Hi All,
I've been feeding raw for a few years but just recently trying to broaden my GR's exposure
to other meats. She eats mostly chicken, turkey and fish now so I am looking forward to
adding pork, beef, etc. I gave her some deer meat from a friends hunting leftovers and she
ate it up right away. Unfortunately, about 2 hours later she threw up about 3 different times
****I have wondered the same thing. One of the first raw meat meals I fed one of my girls threw up. Don't know which one it was. But it did cause a question to come to mind. When introducing a new meat they have never had should it be done in small doses. Like a mostly chicken meal with a venison bone with a small amout of meat on it. So it does not shock their systems. Or does it not work that way.

Sherrel, Daisy and Lilly


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10a. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:49 pm ((PST))

Try mix with raw Egg Or Tripe. My dog worked with Raw egg.
If I feed Pork liver as is,shegoing to leave the piece in bowl but if it were mixed with raw Egg,she gubble it up and not noticing it was there,lol.

yassy


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11a. Re: Finding meat
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:00 pm ((PST))

Hi Sherrel,

I buy my meat at local grocery stores.


I was thinking of trying the local butchers. Like the places people take their beef and deer for cutting a packing for the freezer. To see what they have for free first, then go from there.
I did buy some whole tipialia (most likely mispelled) today at Wally mart, 2 whole fist for 2.98. I seemed like a good price to me so I got one pack.

Also do any of you who feed whole rabbits have problems with worms in your dogs? I know people who's dogs catch and eat rabbits have this problem.

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11b. Re: Finding meat
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:19 pm ((PST))

>Also do any of you who feed whole rabbits have problems with worms in your dogs?

I bought a whole rabbit before and cut up to portion just like I do for birds since itwas my dog's first try.

Well, she ate it ok for first couple of times but second round on,my dog did strike on me not to eat rabbit and if she bit it,then,she makes such adisgusting face and I pulled it from her menu afterall. She still get variety from other kinds so,that isfine with me.

I know some dogs love rabbit but mine wasn't. So, it looks like hit or miss protin kind.
But,no,my dog did not get worm from eating rabbit at all.She is fine.

Also,she tried tilapia too when first round on fish but after eating it ..maybe like 2 hours..she got whiny andkeep ringing the Gottago bell till I come down and ready to out and as soon as she gets lawn area,she did very bright green loose poo puddle.I mean,color was very very bright green.After that,everysome minutes after,she took me to potty outside and did loose poo again and I kept doing butt-wash in bath tub on that day and she was miserable.I think I fed new thing too much.I was afraid to see the green poo again and,I read that many dog gets throw up the tilapia or loose poo etc in list so,it maybe ok but I kind of shy away from it and feed other fish. Mine torelate perch,flounder,Sword fish etc very good.

She loooves shark(when I got,I got just 2 fillet,and I regret it.I should have gotten more..it was 1 dollar per fillet.not bad price and she loved it so...I like to get it again when I find it again.Must be seasonal thing...) ,by the way.

yassy



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12a. Re: Getting the liver down
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:01 pm ((PST))

Have to laugh, Tasha would not touch the liver (beef)for the longest
time tonight. I gave her pal his share and he said thank you! I kept
offering the liver to Tasha threatening not to give her the steak and
the turkey wing. She finally gave in after much dropping it on the floor.

Sai

Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:45 pm (PST)
I held the pork neck in my hand and tried the "if
you eat this, you get that" but it didn't work.

@@@@ and I say my dog is smart because that works... I suppose he is
actually 'gullible' and YOUR dog is the brainiac ! ;-))

Liver is an issue that for some dogs, resolves itself easily, for others you
almost have to take a university course to figure out how to get that slimy
stuff down their gullet.. ;-))
--
*~~ SaiCzarina*


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12b. Re: Getting the liver down
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:18 pm ((PST))

mine like kidney a lot more than liver, though they actually love both
Renate

On Dec 17, 2007 8:59 PM, Sai Simonson <saiczarina@comcast.net> wrote:

> Have to laugh, Tasha would not touch the liver (beef)for the longest
> time tonight. I gave her pal his share and he said thank you! I kept
> offering the liver to Tasha threatening not to give her the steak and
> the turkey wing. She finally gave in after much dropping it on the floor.
>
> Sai
>
> P
>


--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: fasting question
Posted by: "Nora Lenz" nmlenz@speakeasy.net rawnora
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:57 pm ((PST))

Routine fasting is in fact good and healthful for dogs; it replicates
the unpredictable feeding patterns of wild dogs. Dogs in the wild
don't always have the chance to "gorge" but they do eat on a very
irregular schedule, typically going a day or even a few days between
meals. What this means is that the size of the meals you feed should
not be the determining factor. Routine fasting is always what is best
for the dog physiologically, but the owner's level of comfort is what
determines whether it will happen. To that end, I highly recommend
reading one of the great books about fasting, and perhaps trying it
yourself. The best one I've read is, "Fasting Can Save Your Life" by
Herbert Shelton.

Fasting clears up symptoms quickly, and there are very few exceptions
to the rule that fasting is the quickest and most reliable route to
wellness if your dog is symptomatic. Fasting allows the body to
re-direct its resources to healing and cleansing rather than to the
energy-consuming task of digesting food.

I wrote an article for "Living Nutrition" magazine a few years ago
about fasting dogs that I'd be happy to forward privately to anyone
who is interested.

Best wishes,
Nora
nmlenz@speakeasy.net
www.RawSchool.com


Messages in this topic (4)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12389

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: fasting question
From: costrowski75
1b. Re: fasting question
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: How much fish oil?
From: addicted 2 my pc
2b. Re: How much fish oil?
From: sdwhippets@aim.com

3a. throwing up deer meat
From: b3goldens
3b. Re: throwing up deer meat
From: Giselle

4a. Re: Ice storm opportunities
From: mozookpr
4b. ADMIN/Re: Ice storm opportunities
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Chicken...a cannon butt proof meal? - Slippery Elm
From: laura.wimpey

6a. ready to throw the towel...
From: ma_petite_gazelle
6b. Re: ready to throw the towel...
From: Chia
6c. Re: ready to throw the towel...
From: Sonja

7. Yesterday he bacame a ...
From: helpshelteranimals

8. Looking for peoples experience
From: Sue Colvin

9a. Re: Finding meat
From: Lauren Funaiole

10a. Re: chicken liver
From: Kelly
10b. Re: chicken liver
From: Chia
10c. Re: chicken liver
From: K Carolyn Ramamurti

11a. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
From: Sai Simonson

12. {Raw Feeding} Question
From: Brandi Bryant

13. Re: Almost raw for humans
From: Sai Simonson

14a. pork shoulder
From: spricketysprock

15. Does anyone here co-op?
From: Carrie (Milton) Mularoni

16a. Re: A newbie here!
From: mozookpr

17. the best grinders.....
From: Michelle R


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: fasting question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:47 am ((PST))

"geraldinebutterfield" <gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> I understand fasting one day a month is good for dogs, it's also good
> for people. How old should the dog be before I start this routine?
*****
Far as I know, "fasting" is a philosophical construct that doesn't
apply to dogs. Your dog is capable of eating small meals every day and
it's capable of eating big meals few and far between. The days when a
dog doesn't eat (between those big meals) is not fasting, it's
just "not eating".

If you are not feeding big meals that warrant skipping meals before
and/or afterward, there is no reason to "fast" your dog. Meals should
determine skipped meals. No big meals? No need to skip one.

Fasting once a month isn't going to hurt your dog but there's sure no
reason for him to do it.

OTOH, skipping a meal to give an upset tummy time to settle isn't a bad
notion. And missing a meal because life just got too complicated at
dinnertime is also fine and dandy and sensible. There are in fact good
reasons to skip meals. Because "fasting is good for dogs" isn't one of
them.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: fasting question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:49 am ((PST))

Nah.....no reason to fast unless you are feeding gorge meals, then you might
want to skip a day or feed light the next day.
Glad she's doing great! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "geraldinebutterfield" <gbutterflied@comcast.net>


I understand fasting one day a month is good for dogs, it's also good
for people. How old should the dog be before I start this routine? Is
it ok to give her chicken or beef broth during this time or just water.
My little maltipoo is doing GREAT on RMB!!!


Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: How much fish oil?
Posted by: "addicted 2 my pc" mmoy1191@tpg.com.au jmoylan1952
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:01 am ((PST))

good question hmmm i give my two large dogs one each day, mebe more needed not sure?
Jen
----- Original Message -----
From: blueberry5297
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:40 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] How much fish oil?


+++Mod note: pls sign emails ++++

I'm nto sure if this is a silly question, but is there a general rule
of thumb for how many fish oil capsules should be given a day/week by
weight of the dog?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: How much fish oil?
Posted by: "sdwhippets@aim.com" sdwhippets@aim.com krysprohandler
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:20 am ((PST))

I believe I asked this on a different list before and the answer I got
(not sure if this is true or not) is that the 'norm' is to give it once
and day and since it's an oil, anything that the body doesn't need, the
body will extract. I give them to my dogs (I have Whippets - about a
medium sized dog along with 2 small dogs - give the same amount to all)
once a day and they love them - ALL of them think they are treats and
will take them and eat them - you can hear them pop in their mouths :)
I'll have to double check the actual amount that is in the capsule but
I know it's the larger one :)

Krys


****I'm nto sure if this is a silly question, but is there a general
rule

of thumb for how many fish oil capsules should be given a day/week by

weight of the dog?****

-----Original Message-----
From: addicted 2 my pc <mmoy1191@tpg.com.au>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:57 am
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] How much fish oil?

good question hmmm i give my two large dogs one each day, mebe more
needed not sure?

Jen

----- Original Message -----

From: blueberry5297

To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:40 PM

Subject: [rawfeeding] How much fish oil?

+++Mod note: pls sign emails ++++

I'm nto sure if this is a silly question, but is there a general rule

of thumb for how many fish oil capsules should be given a day/week by

weight of the dog?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. throwing up deer meat
Posted by: "b3goldens" b3goldens@nc.rr.com b3goldens
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:20 am ((PST))

Hi All,
I've been feeding raw for a few years but just recently trying to broaden my GR's exposure
to other meats. She eats mostly chicken, turkey and fish now so I am looking forward to
adding pork, beef, etc. I gave her some deer meat from a friends hunting leftovers and she
ate it up right away. Unfortunately, about 2 hours later she threw up about 3 different times
a pretty good amount (i.e. the whole meal).
In the past if she ever did throw up chicken (rarely) she would eat it back up. She does not
seem interested in doing it with the deer meat.
Should I try again tomorrow, wait a few days and try again, or is she telling me she's not
interested in the deer at all?
Can I feed her something else today?
Thanks for any advice!

Glenda


Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: throwing up deer meat
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:33 am ((PST))

Hi, Glenda!
More than likely, its just a case of too much new food at
once.

I'd add a bit, maybe a couple small chunks, to her next regular meal. I'd
add it to a chicken or turkey meal. If that stays down, and has no digestive
repercussions, I'd add a few more chunks to the next meal. I'd continue on
this way, adding more of the venison, and less of the main meat, until its
reversed, and you are feeding all venison.

Was the venison mostly meat? If there were significant amounts of fat or
organs in the venison scraps, I'd try to eliminate some of the fat, or at
least sort it into smaller servings. Same with organs, divide it up into
smaller bits and feed sparingly, witha know well tolerated protein.

With this horking up of a new protein as your guide, I'd be cautious and
introduce pork and beef and any other new protein the same way, slowly and
gradually.

I'd fast her for the rest of today, maybe feed some ls/lf broth, and start
over again tomorrow.

HTH
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey


On Dec 17, 2007 1:09 PM, b3goldens <b3goldens@nc.rr.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
> I've been feeding raw for a few years but just recently trying to broaden
> my GR's exposure
> to other meats. She eats mostly chicken, turkey and fish now so I am
> looking forward to
> adding pork, beef, etc. I gave her some deer meat from a friends hunting
> leftovers and she
> ate it up right away. Unfortunately, about 2 hours later she threw up
> about 3 different times
> a pretty good amount (i.e. the whole meal).
> <snip>
> Can I feed her something else today?
> Thanks for any advice!
>
> Glenda
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Ice storm opportunities
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:32 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
> ***i don't understand this.. i would think in an ice storm folks
when folks
> lose electricity they would think to pull the food out of their
freezers and
> refrigerators and put it in boxes outside or in the garage to keep
it cold and
> keep it from spoiling.
>


I thought of that, too, but the fact is, not everyone has a garage,
and putting meat outside is a good way to attract possums, coyotes,
and stray dogs and cats. A hungry raccoon, especially, can open any
container that is not padlocked shut.

Nothing wrong with feeding these critters, but it does sort of defeat
the purpose of saving the meat.

Cheers,

Wendy

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. ADMIN/Re: Ice storm opportunities
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:34 am ((PST))

This is meandering into foreign territory. Please take the topic to
RawChat or discuss ice storm repercussions privately.
Thanks.
Chris O
Mod Squad

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Chicken...a cannon butt proof meal? - Slippery Elm
Posted by: "laura.wimpey" laura.wimpey@yahoo.com laura.wimpey
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:34 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:

> Bottom line? If you believe your dog is uncomfortable, by all
means
> use SEP.
> Chris O
>

This is right on with my perspective of SEP as well. It's more of an
emotional salve for you while also having the added benefit of
allowing your dog to be more comfortable while 'blowing out' a
digestive problem. Administering SEP during intial digestive upsets
with my kids (digestive upsets caused by my overzealous rawfeeding
newbieness) had a greater effect on me than it did on my dogs; I
think. Sure they appreciated having something to settle their
tummies but I was making myself feel like I was a bad owner for
making them uncomfortable when really all they were probably thinking
was "geez can't wait to poop and then I'll feel better" not "mom, you
are horrible for making me feel like this." Plus, when they have
more comfort they stop shooting beseeching looks your way.

Regards,

Laura W.

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. ready to throw the towel...
Posted by: "ma_petite_gazelle" gaelle6@rogers.com ma_petite_gazelle
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:34 pm ((PST))

Dear all,

I have a almost 7 year old labrador retriever who has been suffering
from allergies since he's about 1. We did some testing back then and
the only thing that came back positive was baker yeast. He was put on
prednisone but then I decided to cut the drugs back and I changed his
food (wellness fish & potatoes) after a while and he did OK for a
couple of years. Had bouts of allergies (scratching, chewing, hot
spots) in the spring and the fall and doesn't do well in places with
carpets, so I have a feeling he also have environmental allergies
(pollen and dust mites would be my guess).
Anyhow...about 3 months ago I discovered Raw feeding and after much
learning I switched him to 100% raw one day. I started with chicken
for a few weeks, and he did very well and his hot spot healed and he
was not scratching anymore.

Since then, I have tried to introduce variety to his food: I tried
pork, beef, turkey, trout, sardines, duck. Each time I buy a little
bit of the new protein source and I mix it with some chicken and I try
for a few days or a week. I have never been able to feed other meats
(with chicken) for longer than a week without seeing bad reactions.
Most of the time, I start seeing symptoms after 2-3 days on the new
protein source (scratching, hot spot, sometimes red spots inside his ear).

So he's back to chicken, once more. He's doing fine on it, but I know
he just can't be on chicken only for the rest of his life. I don't
mind trying other proteins, I still have to try goat and salmon, for
example. But honestly, I'm loosing hope he'll do well on anything but
chicken.

Is there anything else I can do? Am I doing something wrong somehow?
I'm still new at this and I don't understand how he could possibly
react to all these things.

He's getting probiotics every day, BTW (away from his meal).

Thanks in advance for your help. I just don't know what else to do...

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: ready to throw the towel...
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:48 pm ((PST))


Since then, I have tried to introduce variety to his food: I tried
pork, beef, turkey, trout, sardines, duck. Each time I buy a little
bit of the new protein source and I mix it with some chicken and I try
for a few days or a week. I have never been able to feed other meats
(with chicken) for longer than a week without seeing bad reactions.
Most of the time, I start seeing symptoms after 2-3 days on the new
protein source (scratching, hot spot, sometimes red spots inside his ear).

#### have you tried lamb?...others may pop in with more thoughts on her
reactions since I have been blessed with an 'iron' stomach dog... :-))

I also think you may want to contact a good homeopath on our sister list,
Classical Homeopathy for Pets. Perhaps, if you liaison with Magda, and
address the symptoms, you can come up with a plan that will ease her
discomfort. Find the root cause of what she endures.

Has she ever had medications, antibiotics, vaccines?.. All of these could
wreak havoc on her system as well but this would be what you could address
with a good homeopath.

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: ready to throw the towel...
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:39 pm ((PST))

Sounds like you have my dog!!!! Stick with chicken if it works for you. It takes a LOT longer to feed variety with a dog that has "allergic" reactions than it does to a dog that doesn't have such problems. I used turkey for months and months because that's what worked. And the only organs I fed were the ones that came with the huge bird. If she had a bad reaction to a new protein, I'd have to wait a month for the resulting lesions to clear up, then I'd try again (with the dog being fed 100% turkey while we let things clear up). I was a bit concerned because her itching got worse with pork and duck, but after the third attempt of trying to introduce those proteins, we finally added it to the list and she's doing OK. She's still not 100%, but she's MUCH better than she was before raw. Now she can eat duck, pork, and turkey. No chicken or beef, though, she gets really bad reactions with those.

It was hard for me, but I ditched the probiotics with the blessing of this group....my dog was dependent on them when she was on kibble. A few weeks ago I thought I'd be smart and try to boost her immune system with the probiotics again (after ditching them 10 months ago or so). Guess what? We got a raging ear infection and more itchies.

I've also been using salmon oil....my dog is pretty sensitive to what's in it and she's only OK with the one that is made of salmon oil and rosemary extract.

I understand your frustration! But 100% diet of chicken is still better than a kibble diet....just keep trying with the variety occasionally and give your dog time to recover if there is a reaction.

I'm still new, so my advice not be 100% endorsed or solid, but it's been working fairly decent for me.

Good luck!
Sonja

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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7. Yesterday he bacame a ...
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:34 pm ((PST))

DOG! He tried chicken feel for the first time, threw them up about 10
minutes later, and ATE THEM! This is the very FIRST time since I have
had him at 10 months old that he has eaten something that has been ...
er ... 'expelled'!

Woo hoo!

I didn't think he was a real dog!

AG & Ruffian

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8. Looking for peoples experience
Posted by: "Sue Colvin" s.colvin@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ goldpak3
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:53 pm ((PST))

20 years raw feeding and no problem. Oh, except once or twice with lamb
necks which one of the dogs chomped down on and then couldn't easily
extract one of his canines. Came to me for help and I just yanked it
off his tooth gave it back to him and he continued chomping away and
then swallowed. Bone obviously soft and no doubt a good flossing of
the teeth was had. Only happened once or twice, only with lamb necks,
and just the one dog. All dogs get lamb necks regularly.

Gave my dogs each a huge cow tongue, along with sheep heart, and pig
trotter for the meal last Sunday. Ate the heart - easy peasy, grabbed
the tongue and took outside for a good workout. Came back inside, got
the pig trotter, back outside and then one of the dogs put his trotter
down, rolled onto his back, kicked his legs in the air and seemed to
shout for joy 'hey this is the life man' and proceeded to do that for a
few minutes before nibbling for a bit on the trotter and then walking
away from it. The others followed suit - a few very satisfied dogs with
full bellies that night (and trotters to finish off another time). It
was a joy to see....

Sue C, NZ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Finding meat
Posted by: "Lauren Funaiole" LFUNAIOL@SIMIVALLEY.ORG lfunaiol
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:38 pm ((PST))

Hi Sherrel,

I buy my meat at local grocery stores. One of them caters to an ethnic crowd and tends to have better prices and selection of organ meats. I do try to stay away from enhanced meats, but can't afford to buy grassfed/organic meats. I figure that what I am feeding is vastly better than kibble.

Most people start the raw diet by feeding chicken. This works well because the bones are very edible and help to keep the stools firm during the adjustment to raw. After they are doing well on chicken, you can add any other meat that is in abundant supply (for me it was pork). As they are comfortable with each new meat, add another variety that you want to feed. I found that ultimately, it works well to alternate red meats with chicken days. For example:
Monday: chicken
Tuesday: pork
Wednesday: chicken and pork kidney
Thursday: beef
Friday Chicken and liver
Saturday: lamb
Sunday: turkey
This kind of variety works well for me and my dogs.
Lauren Funaiole
>>> Sherrel Leininger meawolf50@yahoo.com> 12/16/2007 11:07 AM >> ( mailto:meawolf50@yahoo.com> )


Where do you get your meat?

When just starting to feed raw is there a certain secquence to start?
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Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "Kelly" kpetska@mgmmirage.com kpet1218
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:38 pm ((PST))

> My aussie, goes so far as to not only refuse liver, but he wont eat
anything the liver has touched. :-)
>

I'm so glad this thread is going. I introduced chicken liver for the
first time last night. (We've been on raw 2 weeks tomorrow.) He was
happily enjoying his first try of pork neck and then I brought the
seared liver out... I held the pork neck in my hand and tried the "if
you eat this, you get that" but it didn't work. Then he wouldn't even
touch the pork neck because at some point it touched the raw liver that
I offered after he refused the seared liver. I put a teeny sliver of
liver on his portion this morning and he only ate half of what he would
normally eat...and of course the liver was still there.

So...tonight I will try mixing it with egg and parmesan or with the
garlic powder that others have suggested.

Thanks!
Kelly Petska
*3 lb male 1y/o Chihuahua*

Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:45 pm ((PST))

I held the pork neck in my hand and tried the "if
you eat this, you get that" but it didn't work.

@@@@ and I say my dog is smart because that works... I suppose he is
actually 'gullible' and YOUR dog is the brainiac ! ;-))

Liver is an issue that for some dogs, resolves itself easily, for others you
almost have to take a university course to figure out how to get that slimy
stuff down their gullet.. ;-))

Then he wouldn't even
touch the pork neck because at some point it touched the raw liver that
I offered after he refused the seared liver. I put a teeny sliver of
liver on his portion this morning and he only ate half of what he would
normally eat...and of course the liver was still there.

@@@@ it may even take a case of NOTHING else EXCEPT the liver, hunger may
win out...this is tricky.. I guarantee you, in a few months time, ALL of
this manipulation and trauma will be a memory and you'll learn what works
best for your smart dog!

Chia & Ricco

( I've hear food processing it into a pulp ..yumm, liver smoothie...and
stuffing into cavities of body parts may work but if your dog wouldn't touch
the part of the pork neck that had liver odour on it..hmmm.... time will
tell...you'll figure it out! Keep being creative though!)


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10c. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "K Carolyn Ramamurti" lilith23360@yahoo.com lilith23360
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:25 pm ((PST))

I struggled with organ meat for months (what worked somewet was "smoothies" made in the blender with a little cheese). One day when I took liver out of the freezer, I noticed the girls going NUTS over it. I tried feeding them each a little piece frozen, and hit the jackpot. They LOVE it now! Try slicing it thin and feeding it frozen.

Carolyn Ramamurti
Seattle

Chia <chia.m@shaw.ca> wrote:
I held the pork neck in my hand and tried the "if
you eat this, you get that" but it didn't work.

@@@@ and I say my dog is smart because that works... I suppose he is
actually 'gullible' and YOUR dog is the brainiac ! ;-))

Liver is an issue that for some dogs, resolves itself easily, for others you
almost have to take a university course to figure out how to get that slimy
stuff down their gullet.. ;-))

Then he wouldn't even
touch the pork neck because at some point it touched the raw liver that
I offered after he refused the seared liver. I put a teeny sliver of
liver on his portion this morning and he only ate half of what he would
normally eat...and of course the liver was still there.

@@@@ it may even take a case of NOTHING else EXCEPT the liver, hunger may
win out...this is tricky.. I guarantee you, in a few months time, ALL of
this manipulation and trauma will be a memory and you'll learn what works
best for your smart dog!

Chia & Ricco

( I've hear food processing it into a pulp ..yumm, liver smoothie...and
stuffing into cavities of body parts may work but if your dog wouldn't touch
the part of the pork neck that had liver odour on it..hmmm.... time will
tell...you'll figure it out! Keep being creative though!)

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11a. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:38 pm ((PST))

I am very fortunate. My vets for the past ten years, in MN and now here
in OR are totally in favor of raw feeding. I think I already might have
mentioned this in a previous post but I am very blessed. Of course I
always search for holistic veterinarians.

Sai

================================================

I started raw when all that recall stuff was going on. I too was
worried
about the "horror stories" Unagainst the advise from everyone I
asked my vet.
Now his clinic is large 5 vets..and a very large client base. Told
him I
was worried about the dog food recalls he said I had a good to
reason to be
concerned. Then I dropped the bombshell that I was thinking of
going raw.
WELLL he stated that the "problems associated with raw are (insert
usually ones)
then he added a BIG HOWEVER we have a very large client base that
feeds raw
and I can honestly say that we have never seen any problems from
feeding
raw..in fact as a whole they have less health problems.. Then he
said if you
feel comfortable with it go for it..I did..

Cathie


Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. {Raw Feeding} Question
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:39 pm ((PST))

I'm having problems finding a variety of meats - beef here is very expensive
- I can't find anything beef wise for under $2.00/lb - pork, turkey and
chicken are they only really protein that I can get a hold of. I can get
lamb, duck if I want pay big bucks... my question is this.. how many have
your meats shipped into you from out of town or out of state? Do you have
success with it? I still have some googling to do about seeing if I can get
meat shipped to me from maybe Tulsa or Oklahoma City...

I read from another post about Green Tripe - I looked on the website that
Chris gave and wondered if I order from them will the meat be alright
shipped from California to Oklahoma?

Thank you!!!
--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok


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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. Re: Almost raw for humans
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:25 pm ((PST))

Went to Denny's for breakfast yesterday morning and requested my usual
very raw t-bone with easy over eggs. The waitress brought it but
lamented that she was sure it was not raw enough....(they know me, they
are in my almost backyard) Back she took it and I heard her shout out
"very rare!" to the cook. Back came a new T-bone....YES cold in the
center. I growled and thanked her.
Sai


Don't be silly. My comment was about humans eating fresh, natural
***RAW*** foods. It's always a good plan to berate your
detractors. Makes you look smart .... NOT!
Bill


Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14a. pork shoulder
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:25 pm ((PST))

So... I'm finally feeding pork, despite (irrational) fears of trich.
It's just too cheap, and red, to pass up.

My dog didn't seem to love it when I first offered it, but now he's
eagerly munching away. My question is, is all that white stuff lining
the shoulder fat or skin or something else? It looks... strange.

Also, I didn't bother to freeze it first. Do you all usually freeze
pork before feeding?

Thanks,
Jess & Toby

Messages in this topic (20)
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15. Does anyone here co-op?
Posted by: "Carrie (Milton) Mularoni" kitkatsmama@comcast.net kitkatsmama
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:25 pm ((PST))

I'm wondering if any of you have gotten together and co-oped on food?
I'm in Northern Oakland County, Michigan. I have a great resource
for a lot of meats, but the quantity is more that I can store. For
example, right now I'm sitting with 40 pounds of chicken backs and 60
pounds of cheek meat- 2 dogs, and a TINY freezer. Anyone interested?
I have one other person I'm splitting with right now, but I wondered
if anyone else would be interested...

Carrie
13 year old lab/gsh, Jager
2 year old yellow lab, Greta

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

16a. Re: A newbie here!
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:26 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Carrin" <mntgrl_2000@...> wrote:
>
> My big fear/concern comes with bones since they are both gulpers, but
> I'm sure I can help them to learn to chew....and I might look into
> grinding if I have to.
>


Hi, Carrin.

I am also new to raw feeding, and I shared the same fear. As I was
teetering on the brink of a decision, one of my dogs got startled while
he was eating and almost inhaled a piece of kibble. Listening to him
hack was all it took for me to get out to the store and stock up on
chicken!

Your dogs will chew (in the manner of dogs, which is really less
chewing than ripping and tearing) when they *have to* to get a meal.
The first raw food I gave my Pomeranian was a chicken leg quarter. (He
is a fairly large Pom; there is big food, and there is just plain
overkill!) Of course, there was no way he was going to eat the whole
thing, but there was no way he was going to choke on it, either! <g>
I just let him eat what he wanted, and put the rest up for the next
day. I have since cut back to smaller portions -- a thigh or
drumstick, for example -- to encourage him to eat the bone, too, and
not just strip off the meat, but the quarters made *me* feel more at
ease as I got started.

Here is something that may help illustrate the importance of food
size. Consider the toys you get for your dogs. No little bitty balls,
right? Of course not, because they pose a choking hazard, just as toys
with tiny parts do to young children. Same with little food. Feed big
food, and your dogs will be fine. They seem to enjoy it more, too.
The most fun Foxy has had yet with a meal was a piece of turkey back
with breast meat that my Sheltie didn't finish. He chewed that back
down to a nub, with this glazed look of utter contentment in his eyes
(and this from a dog who was initially reluctant to eat bones!)

A final thought. I did once take away a little fragment of bone at the
end of Foxy's meal. It was the joint of a drumstick, about the size of
a marble. He was not eating anymore, just playing with it. Because of
the experience with his last kibble, I did not think it was something
he needed to have, so I threw it away. Unnecessary? Maybe. But I
would not give him a toy that size, and I didn't think he needed to
play with a bit of bone that size, either.

There is lots of good advice here. Trust the experienced raw feeders,
especially the "mod squad," and you will do just fine.

Wendy and the kids


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

17. the best grinders.....
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:26 pm ((PST))

LOL Well...all the talk about grinders lately, I just have to share this. I have cresteds.. several hairless and very toothless cresteds. I have one, I swear to goodness, if she has 4 teeth in her head, shes lucky. Tonite, I will have you folks know she took on a duck drumstick and finished the whole thing. I kept checking, because usually she leaves the bigger peices of bone because she hasnt been able to handle them. I guess it just took a while for her to figure it out, and/or build up her jaw strength to be able to do it, but she ate that whole leg...bone and all!!!!! My little toothless wolves!!!
:-)


Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html


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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12388

There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: A newbie here!
From: Andrea
1b. Re: A newbie here!
From: Carrie (Milton) Mularoni
1c. Re: A newbie here!
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: pwdohio2000
2b. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: pwdohio2000
2c. Re: Tom Turkey necks
From: Giselle

3a. Dogs won't eat chicken backs?
From: Carrie (Milton) Mularoni
3b. Re: Dogs won't eat chicken backs?
From: Andrea
3c. Re: Dogs won't eat chicken backs?
From: LINDSEY

4a. Re: Tom Turkey necks - long - dog's history
From: Andrea

5a. Re: raw feeding diabetes insipidus 4 month old puppy
From: Carrie (Milton) Mularoni

6a. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
From: aliciamyan

7a. Re: chicken liver
From: linoleum5017
7b. Re: chicken liver
From: Giselle

8a. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
From: Kevin Brown

9. fasting question
From: geraldinebutterfield

10a. Re: What about vitamin D?
From: arabianbluedobe
10b. Re: What about vitamin D?
From: Tina Berry

11.1. Re: New to this list
From: carnesbill
11.2. Re: New to this list
From: costrowski75
11.3. Re: New to this list
From: Chia
11.4. Re: New to this list
From: Lauren Funaiole
11.5. Re: New to this list
From: ginny wilken

12a. raw for 2.5 weeks
From: blue eyed

13a. Re: Chicken...a cannon butt proof meal?
From: costrowski75

14a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
From: krheintgen


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: A newbie here!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:44 am ((PST))

Welcome, Carrin, and bravo for switching your pups!

> My big fear/concern comes with bones since they are both gulpers, but
> I'm sure I can help them to learn to chew....

The best way to help them is to feed them big food. Food that is no
smaller than the size of their head. Dogs don't chew like humans do,
they just crunch and tear off a piece of food that they can swallow and
down it goes. Problem is that many newbie dogs aren't really sure what
can actually fit down their throat so they try to swallow inappropriate
things. The answer is to not give them something they might think is
ok to swallow. Since they can't fit big food in their mouth they must
rip and tear parts off to swallow.

> and I might look into grinding if I have to.

You don't have to. Grinding may make things less scary for you to
watch, but it won't ever slow down a gulping dog. Not to mention it
won't do bupkis for cleaning their teeth.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: A newbie here!
Posted by: "Carrie (Milton) Mularoni" kitkatsmama@comcast.net kitkatsmama
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:01 am ((PST))

Hey, Carrin!

Glad to "see" you here :)

Carrie

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: A newbie here!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:32 am ((PST))

"Carrin" <mntgrl_2000@...> wrote:
> well). So far, I've fed them raw for their last 3 meals. Nothing
> terrible has happened yet!
*****
The changes if something terrible happening are slim at best. Don't
hold your breath.


> My big fear/concern comes with bones since they are both gulpers, but
> I'm sure I can help them to learn to chew....and I might look into
> grinding if I have to.
*****
If you grind you will be doing it for yourself, not for the benefit of
your dogs. The best way to discourage gulpers is to complicate their
meals. Feeding larger body parts is probably the most natural way to
do this; freezing may also challenge gulpers but freezing may not work
for every dog.

Dogs don't chew though, they gulp. Their teeth are there to shape the
food into a swallowable configuration, and the saliva is there to
lubricate the results. Most everything is chomped, mashed, smashed,
mushed, sliced, crushed, slimed...and swallowed.

I recommend you browse the archives for previous conversations about
this. You are not alone in your initial concerns, but the danger is
invariably in the mind of the feeder, not the feedee.
Welcome.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "pwdohio2000" pwdohio2000@yahoo.com pwdohio2000
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:01 am ((PST))

Bill,

I agree 100%, this problem did not crop up in 5 weeks. She had it
when she came to me. How long it has been going on, I don't know.
Possibly it was assumed that her bad breath was due to cleaning up
after her puppies, although I can't say that I ever really noticed
that with any of my girls, or my friend's Lab when they have pups. If
so, it might have been slight, and this girl's breath was very bad
and I am stuffy a lot from sinus problems!

The vet in town who ran the second labs for me is hoping this second
course of antibiotics will clear up the breath, assuming it is in her
mouth. She did mention that bad breath can also be a sign of
digestive problems but Kiva doesn't appear to have any problem at all
in digesting her food.

Yes, kidneys I have heard can cause bad breath, but her lab work was
all fine in the kidney/liver field even when they were out of whack!

The big concern with the first lab work was for immune problem, white
count and platelets, and something about MCH? Platelets and white
count are back in normal range now.

I am not dropping this, we will follow up on the breath problem until
we get it solved. I am still assuming that it is all mouth related.
She had a fair amount of tartar when I got her and with her gum
recession and bone loss in that one area - seems that is enough
reason why her breath would smell. So, I think if we can get her
mouth straightened around we will be okay.

For now, I will try to stick with the softer chicken bones for
chewing.

Regarding the Tom necks, what a pain those things are for a small
dog! If they are whole, they are way too big for a small dog for one
meal anyway.

I did find a reliable grinder that is said to handle the Tom necks,
for anyone out there who would like to know. It is the Weston. The
one man sells all kinds of brands and he said the Weston has no
problem with them and it has a big enough chute, which he says is
very important, the size of the chute. It is quite pricey, so I am
going to think on it.

Regarding something else causing the tooth problem? That is also
possible. I know of a lady right now with a Miniature Poodle who had
very bad teeth (full of tartar) when she got her. I don't know if her
breath was bad, forgot to ask. Anyway, she got very ill and was found
to have platelets of "0"....yes...."0"!!! How this girl is still
alive is beyond me! She was started on prednisone and many tests
were run and nothing was found (no ticke borne disease or otherwise)
to be the culprit, so it is assumed she has a primary immune-mediated
ITP (my St Poodle had ITP brought on by a sulfa drug (Primor) for a
UTI). Anyway, after months of being on prednisone, her platelets are
back in normal range and she is very active now (she wasn't when she
first got her). And....her teeth are now sparkling white with no
attention given to them whatsoever! And, I believe this girl is
kibble fed. So, yes, the teeth/gum/mouth problems can be secondary to
something else. At this point, with Kiva's blood work being back to
normal, I am assuming her gum/tooth problem is primary.

I also have heard of a dog having bad breath, and after months....it
was found that she had ingested something that was still in her
stomach and rotting, but had not passed through and had not blocked
her intestines...I think this was a Lab as I recall. I didn't know
the person, but my friend did.

Certainly tonsils can also cause bad breath, my Portuguese Water Dog
had tonsillitis, although, his teeth were white until the day he
passed at 12 yrs of age; and his breath was different....only had
that breath that children get when they run a fever, and he only had
it when he ran a fever with the tonsillitis....so it is a different
kind of bad breath.

She still has stitches in her now, so that can also account for some
bad breath (as told to me by a Mini breeder who is a dentist). She
said the stitches can cause some retained food to stay up under them
and maybe when the stitches completely dissolve, the breath will
clear up. We shall see.

For now, I simply stay positive and try to resolve the bad breath,
because there is no more gum/tooth issue to resolve, other than close
observation of the one on the opposite side.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Barb & Kiva


> Frankly I just don't see a problem like this cropping up in 5
> weeks. It's a long shot but maybe whatever is causing the bad
> breath is causing the tooth problem instead of the other way around.
>
> Good luck on finding out what is causing all the problems.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>


Messages in this topic (21)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "pwdohio2000" pwdohio2000@yahoo.com pwdohio2000
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

The vet that I took her to Friday to re-do the blood work, feeds raw
to her own Cockers. It is one reason, I decided to try her and not
drive to my old vet - she seems very open in alternative methods.
She used Chinese herbs for her dog with cancer. So, I don't think
this is a vet that "can't see beyond her bias and fears".

She is puzzled by the bone loss and gum recession. She felt that it
could possibly be from constant chewing of the bones as that is
directly where she is chomping them, but again that is puzzling. I
have not had the dog long enough to know what might have caused this.

Even my vet clinic where I have been going for the last 30 years
knows I feed raw and are okay with it. They don't support it, but
they don't give me a hard time about it. They also know that I have
used a TCM vet for the last 8 years and they are open to that, mainly
because they know the vet and respect her as she used to work in
their clinic.

I have darned good vets and they don't push their beliefs on me.
They also draw blood for me to send to Jean Dodds to run titers,
which I have done for the last 9 years, before titers ever became so
talked about.

I don't deal with vets who have biases and fears. They start in on
me, and I don't go back to them. My conventional vet clinic got one
of those types in their clinic, I never saw him again, when he
started in on titers being good for nothing. He lasted there about
one year and was out the door.


Their most recent tech started in on my daughter about time to
revaccinate and she would have none of it and he finally shut his
mouth on the subject. Maybe he is now learning something about titers
and rethinking about not needing to have shots done w/o titering.
Kiva has not received a distemper shot ever in her life and she has
an adequate titer against distemper! Hooray!

Anyway, I am off subject. Just wanted to let it be known, I don't see
vets with biases, if they have them, they keep them to themselves.
And in the case of the 2nd vet that saw Kiva, like I said, she feeds
raw and is not against bones.

Barb


> look at the larger issue that is going on with your dog. It's
> unlikely whole--appropriate--bones are the cause of her dental
> problems, but it's an easy solution for veterinarians who cannot
see
> beyond their own biases and fears.
>
>> Chris O
>


Messages in this topic (21)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Tom Turkey necks
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:44 am ((PST))

Hi, Barb!
Not going to apologize for my previous post - it was meant, in
a mischievous way, to draw you out so you might post *why* you thought you
needed a grinder, so that we could better help you.

There are many people who post on here for the first time, many times a day,
and often, from their posts and wording, they've 'surfed' a little too long,
and aren't too sure what THIS list is all about, nor am I entirely convinced
that some of them know to what list they are posting.

This raw feeding list supports and promotes the raw Whole Prey Model Diet.
We aren't about grinding, cooking, grains, veggies, fruits, or unneeded
supps.

It is a huge list, with nearly 10,000 members. The advice and support that
you will get on here is entirely without ulterior motive, except to help you
figure out how to feed a species appropriate diet to your dogs. Many of the
regular posters are very experienced and knowledgeable, and a lot of the
newer members who 'get it' post with support and advice also.

My gut feeling is that the breeder of your new girl, Kiva, is one of the
many raw feeders who may not espouse 'our' (this list's) Species Appropriate
whole prey model diet.

We recommend that, if you can't feed actual whole prey - cut up portions of
deer, goat lamb, or whole rabbits chickens, turkeys, etc. with the all the
'innards' and fur still on - that you feed a variety of animal parts, with
lots of meat, a little edible bone and a little organ.

We recommend that supps not be fed for "just in case", but for a real need,
such as Salmon or Fish Body oil if you can't obtain free range animals/parts
to feed.

There are many raw feeders on this list that feed dentally challenged dogs,
some are even toothless! There are others who have continued to feed raw,
without grinding, to their dogs who have had extractions, for whatever
reason, infection, slab fractures, etc. There are also many raw feeders who
feed or did feed dogs with many illnesses; diabetes, pancreatitis, EPI,
IBD/IBS, immune disorders and others and found ways to tweak the diet
without compromising ALL the benefits of raw. I hope that many of them will
weigh in here, and tell their stories.

Because raw feeding isn't just about feeding the dog a better food, its
about satisfying the wolf in all our dogs - the need to rip and tear, and
be really full - there's dental, mental, physical and emotional aspects of
the eating of raw that speaks to a dog's inner self - its a wonder to
behold, and in your own kitchen! ^_^

So, my advice is to question your breeder as to EXACTLY what Kiva's diet had
consisted of during her weaning up until you acquired her.
Questions I would be asking;
1) Was this dog fed all raw? All the time?
2) What varieties of proteins?
3) Frequency of feeding of each protein?
4) What parts of the animal did each protein source come from?
5) What size portions were fed, how many times a day?
6) What edible bones were fed? In what proportion to the diet? I refer to
entirely edible bones, not w/rec/k bones.
7) Were meat and bone separated? Ground?
8) What organs were fed? In what proportion to the diet?

Also, I might ask if weaning pups or pups that are to be possible 'keepers'
are fed alone or communally. With other pups, or adults included?

I think it is possible, that maybe Kiva was not fed sufficient bone to
support her growing body's needs, as well as the needs of two litters of
pups. Also, that she may not have been fed enough protein variety, nor
enough liver and other organs. If she was fed boneless meat meals, with an
occasional w/rec/k bone tossed in, she may even have stressed the tooth
enamel (which may not be as strong as it should be) or even fractured the
one that was extracted, while not having been given large enough portions of
meat and edible bone before you got her to clean her teeth and work her
gums.

I'd want to offer this girl large portions, with softer edible bones to
encourage her to crunch and tear, to retain and build jaw strength.
Quartered chickens, whole rabbits, mackerels; maybe even whole prey, such as
quail, hamsters, rats, etc. I'd also be offering her liver, and as much
variety of other organs as I could manage, if I couldn't feed whole prey.

People who have posted on this list whose dogs had extractions seem to feed
just meat for several meals, maybe cut up into chunks, then move on to
larger parts with a small amount of soft bone, like bone in breasts, until
the extraction site has healed a bit, is less sore and the stitches are
dissolving.

HTH
TC
Giselle

This girl has healthy gums in her mouth, other than the gums directly
over the upper molar that was removed, and the other molar on the other
side is also starting down the same path, just not as bad. The rest of
her gums are healthy.

Sandee may have a lot of knowledge, but I don't think that my question
to the list about grinders was handled well at all by either of the
first two posters. I feel that I got rudeness being told that the
grinders are in the dog's mouth. I know that, and I was asking
specifically what electric grinder have people used with success for
Tom necks. Rather than anyone answering directly to that question I
feel like I was slapped in the face by being told an elementary
statement of truth that I already know.

I know this is a high volume list and I was keeping the question short
and sweet and to the point, I didn't feel I needed to explain why I
wanted a commercial grinder.

Barb


> <snip>
> > look at the larger issue that is going on with your dog. It's
> > unlikely whole--appropriate--bones are the cause of her dental
> > problems, <snip>
> >
> >> Chris O
>
>
>


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Messages in this topic (21)
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3a. Dogs won't eat chicken backs?
Posted by: "Carrie (Milton) Mularoni" kitkatsmama@comcast.net kitkatsmama
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:01 am ((PST))

Ok, this morning I offered my dogs each a chicken back. They each
licked at them a bit and then looked at me as if to say "now what?".
Anyone else had this experience? We've only been raw feeding for
about 3 days, mostly chicken, some trout (I removed the skin- should I
leave it on in the future?), and then this morning I gave them beef
cheek instead, which they readily gobbled up. I'd love any insight...

Carrie
13 year old lab/gsh, Jager
2 year old lab, Greta

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Dogs won't eat chicken backs?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:46 am ((PST))

Possibly the backs just didn't have enough meat on them to be
considered food. They also could have been too cold or your dogs might
be picky. Backs aren't an especially important or helpful food unless
you are adding more meat with it anyway. Next time you might try
giving them a chicken back with some beef cheek as well. They may eat
the beef cheek and just keep going with the backs.

As for the trout, no reason to take anything off or out of it. Skin
on, head on, fins on, guts in. . .it's all good.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Carrie (Milton) Mularoni"
<kitkatsmama@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, this morning I offered my dogs each a chicken back. They each
> licked at them a bit and then looked at me as if to say "now what?".
> Anyone else had this experience?

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Dogs won't eat chicken backs?
Posted by: "LINDSEY" ldebner@yahoo.com ldebner
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:52 am ((PST))

My mini dachshund prefers chicken back to most meats. I just didn't like how fatty they were. But he'd gobble them right on down.
I don't know what to say but maybe try it again?
Lindsey

"Carrie (Milton) Mularoni" <kitkatsmama@comcast.net> wrote: Ok, this morning I offered my dogs each a chicken back. They each
licked at them a bit and then looked at me as if to say "now what?".
Anyone else had this experience? We've only been raw feeding for
about 3 days, mostly chicken, some trout (I removed the skin- should I
leave it on in the future?), and then this morning I gave them beef
cheek instead, which they readily gobbled up. I'd love any insight...

Carrie
13 year old lab/gsh, Jager
2 year old lab, Greta




---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Tom Turkey necks - long - dog's history
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:12 am ((PST))

I kept thinking while reading this thread that this problem goes back
much farther than the five weeks you've had this girl. The fact that
she had a tartar buildup on her teeth when she came to you makes me
think she wasn't eating whole bones before, or at least not ones that
required much chewing. Can you find out exactly what she was eating
before she came to you? Chewing marrow bones might also be a key in
this.

Have you given her bone in meals since her mouth has been healing? I
would give her easy peasy bones and work your way up if you can. If
in the event she never wants to eat a turkey neck again, it really
isn't a big problem. Chicken quarters, pork roasts and such are much
better for her dental health than ground food. You may be sure that
she won't have a problem chewing ground food, but it is only going to
make her teeth worse down the line.

Andrea


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pwdohio2000" <pwdohio2000@...>
wrote:

> She did have tartar build up, and it is better than it was when I
> got her. Why the bad breath with a raw fed dog is beyond me.
<snip>
> Now with the tooth removal, it worries me whether she can indeed
> chew up her bones and manage to not choke. There is no tooth to
> match up with on that side for chewing. Obviously the RMBs didn't
> help to avoid a tooth problem with her...so, my thinking is
> grinding might be the way to go to help save the teeth and prevent
> possible choking because she can't manage to chew her bones well
> enough.

Messages in this topic (21)
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5a. Re: raw feeding diabetes insipidus 4 month old puppy
Posted by: "Carrie (Milton) Mularoni" kitkatsmama@comcast.net kitkatsmama
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

Hi, Dody!

I, too, am raw feeding a DI dog! We just started a few days ago, but
I'll send you an e-mail with some DI info to make it a bit less scary
for you. So far my dogs have had mostly chicken breast meat with fat,
and some trout, as that's what I had in the house to get htem started
on, but I just got 60 pounds of beef cheek, and 40 pounds of chicken
backs/necks, so we'll see.

Good luck to you!

Carrie
13 year old lab/gsp, Jager (my DI dog)
2 year old lab, Greta

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Looking for people's feeding experiences
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "bettathang" <bettathang@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello All-
> After doing some intensive reading about the pros and "cons" of
> feeding raw, I keep find people advising not to feed raw because of
> stomach/intestine/whatever tears, inappropriate nutrition,
bacterial infections, and on and on. I'm just wondering, has anyone
ACTUALLY had this happen to their dogs?

Heidi,

I'm new to raw myself - only 3 months. I'm not an experienced raw
feeder, but definitely an experienced k*bble feeder and can attest to
the cons of that. I switched due my 3yo GSD's food
allergies/digestive issues that climaxed with gastric torsion surgery
this last July. We also have a 12 year old lab. I must say, what
I've seen so far is worth risking a "freak accident" for the improved
quality of life my dogs have experienced in the short time I've fed
them raw. The pros: My GSD is finally putting on weight and filling
out, he loves mealtimes, his coat isn't constantly falling out and is
glossy and gorgeous. The lab is losing excess weight and she too
looks amazing. Both have pearly whites again.

Cons: The lab has spent the last couple years suffering from
arthritis. MSM has helped, but she has generally spent her time
napping on her bed...until we switched to raw. On several occasions
now, I've come home to find her wandering across the cow pastures -
outside of "her yard". She sees me pull in and comes running like a
puppy. The con is I'm worried she's going to have a heart attack!
Although we switched for the GSD, I'd say the lab has reaped the most
benefit - she has her sparkle back - I only wish I knew about raw
years ago.

I haven't told our vet yet, but since I started raw, I've been taking
the GSD in monthly just to check his weight. The staff raves about
how he looks...the've seen him at his worst. The vet hasn't been
there to see him yet, but I'm anxious for that time to come. The
last time he saw him, I was told I can't let him loose any more
weight. I was feeding him the vet-reccommended k*bble and making no
progress. He's a pretty down to earth vet...but from what I've read,
finding one that supports raw isn't too easy. When and if he
discovers what I'm feeding, he can tell me all the horror stories he
wants - after what we've experienced, there is no way I would turn
back.

Alicia

Messages in this topic (16)
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7a. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:41 am ((PST))


Thank you, Giselle, you are correct, as usual, and your manner of
clarification is much appreciated....

My mind once knew it,
But my words, they blew it.
Out of proportion,
They made a contortion;
These you graciously nixed,
Now guidelines are fixed.

: )

Appreciatively,
Lynne


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Just a clarification, if I may, Lynne.
>
>>
> #### Actually, the recommendation is 10% of a variety of organs.
> Thats broken down as;
> 3-5% of the total diet be liver of some type.
> 5-7% of the total diet should be 'other' - whether it be kidney,
spleen,
> thymus, pancreas, eyeballs, ______; preferably a variety.
>
> Heart, gizzards, tongue *are* organs, but because they are meaty
muscley
> organs, they are fed as meatymeat.
>
> The recommendation to "Balance Over Time" refers to adjusting the
> constituents of a dog's diet; meatymeat, edible bone, & organs to
better
> reflect the whole prey model over weeks and months. Some people
prefer to do
> the balancing act in smaller time increments.
>
> HTH
> TC
> Giselle
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


Messages in this topic (16)
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7b. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:08 am ((PST))

KEWL! ^_^

Giselle

<snip>
>
>
>
> My mind once knew it,
> But my words, they blew it.
> Out of proportion,
> They made a contortion;
> These you graciously nixed,
> Now guidelines are fixed.
>
> : )
>
> Appreciatively,
> Lynne
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (16)
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8a. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:41 am ((PST))

> I totally understand the benefits of feeding RAW, i'm just unsure if I
> could afford it or not. :(
>
> I hope I am asking the right questions here and I am sorry if I
> digress, its a bad habit.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken
>


I feed human grade meats and it has been costing me an average of $1.00
per pound. I am not including special treats meals. I shop, and keep
my eye out for managers specials and loss leaders. When I see chicken
quarters without hormones and such for 59 cents a pound, I go hog wild
and fillup the freezer, etc, etc.

Kevin Brown
Baby & Georgeanne
GuardiansByTheSea.com
The Jersey Shore

Messages in this topic (7)
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9. fasting question
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:02 am ((PST))

I understand fasting one day a month is good for dogs, it's also good
for people. How old should the dog be before I start this routine? Is
it ok to give her chicken or beef broth during this time or just water.
My little maltipoo is doing GREAT on RMB!!!

Thanks everyone,
geraldine

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: What about vitamin D?
Posted by: "arabianbluedobe" arabianbluedobe@yahoo.com arabianbluedobe
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:03 am ((PST))

I agree whole heartedly with you on this Chris. I have learned so much
from this group in the short time I have been a member, Most
importantly being, "see what works for your dog" . Mine are almost
exculsively on venison for the moment(its free) but I am buying
whatever meats are on sell for less than $1 lb at my supermarket.
Hunters can be your dogs best friend.
April

Messages in this topic (17)
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10b. Re: What about vitamin D?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:51 am ((PST))

How else do the fellows get their vitamin D, especially in the winter?"

Feed raw liver.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


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Messages in this topic (17)
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11.1. Re: New to this list
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:51 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Chia <chia.m@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Fresh, natural raw foods are BEST for
> > us, and for the pets in our charge.
>
> For pets, I'm convinced. For humans, not yet.
>
> ### yes, probably best humans eat grains and sugars
> like commercially
> raised dogs.... maybe an odd chicken back too... ;-))

Don't be silly. My comment was about humans eating fresh, natural
***RAW*** foods. It's always a good plan to berate your
detractors. Makes you look smart .... NOT!

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (39)
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11.2. Re: New to this list
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:07 am ((PST))

Okay all, let's keep human eating habits (except food and drink
advisories) off Rawfeeding. Let's also try to keep in mind that
feeding foods other than free range is not necessarily the end of the
world. And let's really try to keep it civil.
Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team


Messages in this topic (39)
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11.3. Re: New to this list
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:12 am ((PST))

---
Don't be silly. My comment was about humans eating fresh, natural
***RAW*** foods. It's always a good plan to berate your
detractors. Makes you look smart .... NOT!

#### not even going to comment about what happens to the lack of digestive
enzymes that men/women are now experiencing due to consuming the majority of
their caloric content, 'cooked'.

My sincerest apologies.. it is off topic for here and best to discuss with
others like minded in nutrition and health care the 'natural' way. I always
seem to assume that people take care of themselves similarly to the way they
take care of their pets/children. Dropped subject...before Chris scolds
me.. ;-))

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (39)
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11.4. Re: New to this list
Posted by: "Lauren Funaiole" LFUNAIOL@SIMIVALLEY.ORG lfunaiol
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:28 am ((PST))

Hi Sherrel,

I have fed two dobie girls a prey model diet for quite a long time now. Both have done wonderful on the diet. We go to our local dog park quite a bit, and my dobies are always the leanest, shiniest, and most muscular of the dobermans that come to the park. I feed the diet recommended by this list: 80% meat, 10% edible bone, and 10% organ meat. It's simple, convenient, natural, and the dogs love it. My dogs eat in their crates (no pad or anything to get greasy) and they clean the floors up with their tongues when done.

Feed raw, you won't regret it!

Lauren Funaiole


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (39)
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11.5. Re: New to this list
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:44 am ((PST))


On Dec 17, 2007, at 8:32 AM, carnesbill wrote:

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Chia <chia.m@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Fresh, natural raw foods are BEST for
>>> us, and for the pets in our charge.
>>
>> For pets, I'm convinced. For humans, not yet.
>>
>> ### yes, probably best humans eat grains and sugars
>> like commercially
>> raised dogs.... maybe an odd chicken back too... ;-))
>
> Don't be silly. My comment was about humans eating fresh, natural
> ***RAW*** foods. It's always a good plan to berate your
> detractors. Makes you look smart .... NOT!


I dunno, Bill; it surely looked to me as if you said you were not yet
convinced humans should eat raw.


ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!


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12a. raw for 2.5 weeks
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:51 am ((PST))

Could it be that she needed a bit more bone in the meal? Also this happened when I bought a cheap chicken leg for my pup but no harm came of it, makes you wonder though.....

I would keep a close eye on her, just incase she has something not food related.

Natalie


---------------------------------
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13a. Re: Chicken...a cannon butt proof meal?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:14 am ((PST))

"Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Chris!
> You said Slippery Elm powder if I "NEED" to soothe the intestines...
> How do I know when they need soothing vs just blow it out?
> Mary T
*****
Well....
If I were where you are with this, I'd consider a single comprehensive
blow out to be over and down with, without intervention. But if my dog
were having trouble stabilizing, I'd use SEP. Lots of times irritation
causes spasms that keep the hits a-comin' on. OTOH, I tend to use SEP
sparingly; others are more generous with it, which isn't going to hurt
or artifically stopper up the process.

Bottom line? If you believe your dog is uncomfortable, by all means
use SEP.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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14a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
Posted by: "krheintgen" krheintgen@comcast.net krheintgen
Date: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:28 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
>
> "My favorite is the one who pops the kid's ball just to watch them
cry."
>
> Okay - Baron does do this and then takes the ball away - dang - it
must be
> the raw!!!
> --

Raw even creates dog on dog aggression -- Lady Jane, my Springer
Spaniel will take Bandit's (Sibe) ping pong balls (he loves to step on
them and make them skitter around the floor) and smash them flat with
her back teeth. She spits them out in front of him and walks away. He
will lay down with his nose on the flat "ball" and sigh very sadly...

Kathy R

Messages in this topic (14)
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