Feed Pets Raw Food: Nov 20, 2007

Tuesday, November 20, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12299

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Day 5 of Raw Feeding: Calcium concerns.
From: n_knezevich
1b. Re: Day 5 of Raw Feeding: Calcium concerns.
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: Day 5 of Raw Feeding: Calcium concerns.
From: n_knezevich

2a. Re: question about marrow bones
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2b. Re: question about marrow bones
From: spricketysprock
2c. Re: question about marrow bones
From: marlena_adema

3a. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: Dawn Ruhl

4a. Re: Rawfeeding and UTI
From: Casey Post

5a. Re: Trichinosis
From: miensasis
5b. Re: Trichinosis
From: Jolene Nelson
5c. Re: Trichinosis
From: Jolene Nelson
5d. Re: Trichinosis
From: brutus_buckley
5e. Re: Trichinosis
From: Felicia Kost
5f. Re: Trichinosis
From: MORGAN LEWIS
5g. Re: Trichinosis
From: Jolene Nelson

6a. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
From: debiand5dogues

7a. Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
From: miensasis
7b. Re: Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
From: Sandee Lee
7c. Re: Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
From: Suzanne J
7d. Re: Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
From: costrowski75

8. Deer carcases
From: Pug Lady

9a. Re: Enough Variety?
From: mrbob02140

10. HELP!!
From: Doguefan@aol.com

11. Must Read
From: logbreath2000

12a. Re: excessive shedding
From: h h

Messages
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1a. Day 5 of Raw Feeding: Calcium concerns.
Posted by: "n_knezevich" n_knezevich@yahoo.com n_knezevich
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:47 pm ((PST))

++++Mod note: please sign all messages +++++++++++++

Just wanted to get some reassurance.

Got my standard Doodle 10 days ago and started feeding her raw 5 days
ago. She is now 12 weeks old, 16 lbs. I estimate her adult weight
should be around 50 lbs but I can see she will be very tall wouldn't
be surprised if she'll be about 24"+, using Mom as a gauge--should be
tall and lean.

I have only been giving her chicken (worried about introducing too
much variety at once--won't be so worried now after some of the
things I've just read on the group)but want some assurance on
quantity, for nutrition and calcium. Started giving her back and
neck, but currently am giving her a thigh, 3 times a day. That's 3
thigh bones, total weight about a pound or just over. Do you think
that's enough calories and will that be enough for her calcium
requirements? Should I give her more bone/bone supplement?

Note: vet thought she was a little too thin--can definitely feel/see
her ribs. Will weigh her again in a week to see how fast she is
gaining. She gained almost 2 pounds in the last week.

BTW, she's eating the bone like a pro. Gave her first whole thigh
today. Has had no problem chewing well and crunching the bone. After
a week of soft stool, then diarrhea (though very little of it when
she started on the raw) her stool has firmed up today.

Anything else I may be missing.

Thanks in advance.

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Day 5 of Raw Feeding: Calcium concerns.
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:58 pm ((PST))

She is getting *more* than enough bone. Overall the requirement is only
about 10% bone and you are probably closer to 25-30%. Time to add some
meat. Puppies generally can handle quite a bit of variety in the beginning.

You definitely do not need to add bone or supplement with calcium. That's
where you will get into bone growth problems. Stick with prey model...lots
and lots of meat, a little bone and organs, and she will grow nice and slow.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "n_knezevich" <n_knezevich@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (3)
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1c. Re: Day 5 of Raw Feeding: Calcium concerns.
Posted by: "n_knezevich" n_knezevich@yahoo.com n_knezevich
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:28 pm ((PST))

Thank you. I'll try and add another meat type tonight!

Nada (and Maya would thank you too, I'm sure!)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> She is getting *more* than enough bone. Overall the requirement is
only
> about 10% bone and you are probably closer to 25-30%. Time to add
some
> meat. Puppies generally can handle quite a bit of variety in the
beginning.
>
> You definitely do not need to add bone or supplement with calcium.
That's
> where you will get into bone growth problems. Stick with prey
model...lots
> and lots of meat, a little bone and organs, and she will grow nice
and slow.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: question about marrow bones
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:47 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/20/2007 2:04:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
marlena_adema@yahoo.ca writes:

Now, I don't know much about bones for dogs, but they look like
the big, weight bearing bones (same as rec bones?) only cut into 2
inch peices. I just want to confirm these are indeed okay to give?

Marlena,

those are beef femurs.. the very definition of wreck bones.. they can and
WILL break teeth.

beef femurs are called: soup bones, marrow bones, knuckle bones.. and
probably more that i'm not thinking of right off the top of my head. basically if
the description on the package says "bones" it's not wolf chow. it's more bone
than meat, these are the parts we try to stay away from.

you want meaty hunks of body parts, most of these parts are called roasts or
whole "something". Like whole pork legs, or pork picnic roast, or pork
shoulder butt roast. different terminology, but the same goes for beef, goat and
lamb also.

Catherine R.

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products.
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Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: question about marrow bones
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:07 pm ((PST))

My dog loves marrow bones, but he doesn't try to eat the bone itself,
just enjoys licking out all the marrow. It's like an all natural Kong.

Jess & Toby

Messages in this topic (7)
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2c. Re: question about marrow bones
Posted by: "marlena_adema" marlena_adema@yahoo.ca marlena_adema
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:41 pm ((PST))

Thanks everyone for your input. Learning more every day!
Marlena

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "Dawn Ruhl" Dawnofthedanes@mac.com dawnofthedanes
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:47 pm ((PST))

Hey Suzanne,
I have a 6 yr old Dane here who has been raw fed since she was 6
months old. 2 of her siblings are
dead, and I don't know why.
I also have an 11 yr old Rescue Dane, that stayed with my friend in
Tn when I moved here to
GA last month. He has been raw fed for most of the 7 years we have
had him. The only time he
wasn't raw fed, was before we got him (he was killing calves and
eating them) and the 3 times we
adopted him out. He trashed the homes of the families. We thought it
was because he was attached
to my friend's husband. NOT! He's attached to the raw diet. LOL
They had a White Shepherd who lived to be almost 19 years of age...
and we were discussing him when
she said... "he was fed kibble his entire life" and I had to remind
her of all the times he broke out of the
yard to go and hunt, kill and eat rabbits, squirrels... etc. And that
the last 3 years he was totally raw fed
and he never lost that shine in his eyes, until he closed them for
the last time.
I would have to say from my experience that any raw feeding helps
their health. The hows and whys
play their part, too.... however, because of what I have seen health
wise in my dogs over the past 14 years
is why I will NEVER go back to dog food, and yes they are always more
healthy. JMHO

Dawn
~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~

How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@yahoo.com suzjoxx
Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:55 am (PST)

Just wondering what the long-term (positive) effects of raw feeding
are. I started my dogs at ages 7 and 5 years. I'm wondering if anyone
has an older dog they've been feeding since it was a pup, and what your
experience is, versus a dog that was fed kibble for several years
first. Are the always-raw fed dogs way more healthy?

Suzanne

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Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: Rawfeeding and UTI
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm ((PST))

> We have just started rawfeeding (approximately 9 weeks ago) and both
> our greyhounds got urinary tract infections.

This is very odd, to be sure.

>
> First Grace (8 yo)showed strange discharge and it turned out to be
> vulvitis for which she was given injectable antibiotic BUT her urine
> and stool still 'stink'.
>
> Then Dreamer (6 yo) also had penile discharge which was cultured and
> grew E.Coli and Staph and he is on a month of Baytril - urine
> extremely strong and stool stinky.

Well, his stool is going to be stinky on an antibioic...looser too. I'm not
sure how much stock I would put in a culture from the discharge unless they
managed to get their sample um...closer to the source, as it were. Not
contaminated by the environment. But hey, maybe they did for all I know.

Did they get blood work run?

>
> Is this just a coincidence?

It's a heck of a coincidence if it is. Nothing else going on in their
lives? No vaccines or yard treatments or fresh paint or anything that could
take a whack at both of their immune systems at the same time?

>
> On another note, we have also started keeping the RMBs (poultry) in
> open baggies in the fridge rather than freezing them (our freezer is
> pretty small). Both dogs want to help us get them out to weigh at
> mealtime - I am assuming because of the stench. So far no untoward
> reactions to not-so-fresh meat.
>
> Any thoughts out there?

Hey, if they're good with it and you're ok with your fridge smelling like
chicken that has seen better days, then it's all good. Might be easier just
to plop the chicken in a bowl or something else rigid and flat-bottomed to
prevent tip-over spills, which can be gross and no fun to clean up.

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:54 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "angelis20107" <angelis20107@...>
wrote:
>
> HI, I'm ...the dog's owner, Shelley.
> I am positive that she has not had any wild game here as there isn't
> really a lot here in Cayman! The other possibility is the rat
> issue. She is usually is not outside unsupervised, but I'm not
> going to positively swear she did not get a hold of a rat. However
> I have rarely seen rats in my yard.

Shelley...

First off, I want to say that I'm sorry about your sick girl! I hope
you get to the bottom of this and she gets the care she needs. I
just wanted to make a comment about supervision in the yard. I have
medium sized dogs who are relatively new to raw (just 2 months) and
when I think of something the size of some rats, I know they could
easily chew and swallow the critter in just a couple of minutes.
Even though you are in the yard with your girl, I think it would be
very easy for her to have at something that size and be done with it
before you even noticed. (Just think of the kind of trouble
our "supervised" puppies can get into!) I truly think that if, in
fact, trich is the culprit...this would be a much more plausible
explanation than the pigs' ears. Having said that .... the "how"
right now isn't nearly as important as confirming a diagnosis and
treating appropriately. I truly with you and your girl the best of
luck!

Nancy

Messages in this topic (22)
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5b. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "Jolene Nelson" imperial_bloodlines@yahoo.com imperial_bloodlines
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:07 pm ((PST))

Hi guys,

Thankfully Cayman is a rabies free territory so we don't vaccinate for rabies here. never have. Also we don't have lakes or ponds, just ocean!

saphiradane <saphiradane@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Jolene, just throwing this out there but I seen a dog once with
most of these symptoms and was treated as having a severe rabies vacc
reaction. Symptoms started suddenly about 2 weeks after the vacc.
and the dog was treated quickly by a homeopatic vet. Also I had a dog
with some of these symptoms, suffering from toxic alge. We were at a
lake 2 days before. I know the symptoms u describe are general but,
just trying to help! Good Luck Felicia

Jolene Nelson
I'm a proud Raw Bully owner!
Imperial Bulldoggs

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Messages in this topic (22)
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5c. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "Jolene Nelson" imperial_bloodlines@yahoo.com imperial_bloodlines
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:13 pm ((PST))

Thanks Renee,

We are trying to find a lab or hospital which can do the tests however as trich is not to common, neither is the test.

We don't have wild game here in Cayman....the wildest thing running around would be a chicken or iguana.

We're actually not trying to jump to conclusions; it was the vet who even mentioned trich but all we can do now is see if this one pans out. Believe me our fingers are crossed that it isn't trich.

Thanks for the concern and well wishes.

brutus_buckley <brutus_buckley@yahoo.com> wrote: Jolene,
If it were my dog, or my friend's dog, I would find a facility
*somewhere* that could provide the proper testing.

Being as this is not your dog, are you sure the dog was not fed wild
game of any kind? I sincerely hope that
this isn't trich, that it did not come from imported US pork and, most
of all, that the bullie recovers.

-Renee W.

Jolene Nelson
I'm a proud Raw Bully owner!
Imperial Bulldoggs

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Messages in this topic (22)
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5d. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:16 pm ((PST))

Just doing a quick read on the internet about trich, it says that blood
or muscle samples may be used to detect it, and/or sending out a stool
sample that contains any worms or egg cases. Please be sure to post if
you do get a test done; I would love to know the results. (I bet you
would too!) Again, good luck and I hope your bullie baby gets better
soon.

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (22)
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5e. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:34 pm ((PST))

Do u have ticks there or have u already ruled out tick borne disease. Just another idea, I know they can be very hard to diagnios and are easily overlooked! Felicia
.

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Messages in this topic (22)
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5f. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:53 pm ((PST))

Well all meats are required to be Certified for human consumption.Morgan

CAYMAN ISLANDS
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

CONDITIONS GOVERNING THE IMPORTATION OF MEAT AND MEAT PRODUCTS
INTO THE CAYMAN ISLANDS

The following are the conditions for entry of meat and meat products into the Cayman Islands.

1. The importer shall obtain and produce for the Customs Officer or Inspector at the point of entry into the Cayman Islands a Certificate of Wholesomeness from the Competent Government Authority of the country of origin of the meat and/or meat product declaring that:-

(i) the carcass or portion of the carcass thereof, whether fresh, frozen, chilled, pasteurised, cured or pickled, originated from animals slaughtered while in good health and free from contagious and infectious diseases;

(ii) the meat or meat product has been inspected and passed for food under the laws of the country of origin; and

(iii) was wholesome and unadulterated at the time of inspection.

2. Such carcasses may be imported from any of the countries listed in the Schedule to the Animals Regulations (Reg. 5., 1977, Specified Countries).

* Great Britain
* Northern Ireland
The Irish Republic
Jamaica
Canada
Australia
New Zealand
United States of America

Costa Rica )
Nicaragua ) Boneless meat only
Honduras )

* Meat and meat products from RUMINANTS (cattle, sheep, goats and deer) are prohibited from entry from Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

NB. In most countries the Competent Government Authority involved in the international export of meats and meat products is usually a Ministry/Bureau/Department/Division of Agriculture or Health within the central Government of the country.

In the United States of America the certificates are issued by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) and in Canada, by the Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.

Felicia Kost <saphiradane@yahoo.com> wrote: Do u have ticks there or have u already ruled out tick borne disease. Just another idea, I know they can be very hard to diagnios and are easily overlooked! Felicia
.

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Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (22)
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5g. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "Jolene Nelson" imperial_bloodlines@yahoo.com imperial_bloodlines
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:40 pm ((PST))

Yes we do have ticks here and they have tested for tick borne diseases and those came up negative.

And yes of course all food is inspected and regulated as I'm sure it is in the US before they put it out into the supermarkets BUT you still have recalls from time to time when something shows up with salmonella or e-coli or some such thing don't you?

Sometimes things slip through the cracks, that's just the way things are. And AGAIN I am not definitively saying it IS trich or that it was from the pig ears. I'd much rather it wasn't either of those things actually. Which is why we're still trying to determine the facts.

MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@yahoo.com> wrote: Well all meats are required to be Certified for human consumption.Morgan

Felicia Kost <saphiradane@yahoo.com> wrote: Do u have ticks there or have u already ruled out tick borne disease. Just another idea, I know they can be very hard to diagnios and are easily overlooked! Felicia
.

Jolene Nelson
I'm a proud Raw Bully owner!
Imperial Bulldoggs

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (22)
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6a. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
Posted by: "debiand5dogues" dholloway26@yahoo.com debiand5dogues
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:07 pm ((PST))

THANKS!!!!

> >what is searing? ?
>
> Searing is ,If place skillet on high and,you see the smoke coming
out a little for high heat and you place meat on skillet and quickly
brown the outside the meat by rotating.
>
> Basically,trapping the flavor inside the meat with high heat
cooking and browning outside.
> 20secs is more than enough I think.
>
> For finiky eater,this quick searing or mixing meat with tripe or
egg,flavoring meat,ribborning the meat are some tricks you can read
on this list.
>
> My dog hates pork liver but if it were mixed with egg,she gubbles
down,no prob.
>
> Some dog eats things if it were frozen. It all depend on dogs.
>
> yassy
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your
homepage.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:07 pm ((PST))

Well my wheatens are progressing nicely as I add variety to their
diet. Now that I've introduced several protein sources and a variety
of organs, they seem to be able to handle anything I give without the
digestive upset we experienced in the first couple of weeks. Yay!

I was, however, disappointed with their response to the whole rabbits I
scored at the Amish market. They didn't "love" them as I'd expected.
In fact, I ended up dragging the carcasses out of the fridge for
several days before they finally got around to finishing them. I
thoroughly expected them to enjoy those rabbits! Day after day they'd
look at me when I offered it with faces that said...."This???
AGAIN???" My husband wanted to cave, but I refused to give in and
finally they finished them. I rewarded them the next day with a nice
juicy hunk of red meat and their ears wiggled with joy as they gnawed
away...lol. Is this type of response to rabbits typical??? Unless you
tell me rabbits are super-nutritious, I'm not sure it is something I
would go out of my way to buy again!

Nancy

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:32 pm ((PST))

Nancy,

There seem to be many dogs who detest rabbit! They are just another protein
source...if your dogs don't like them, I wouldn't bother. :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "miensasis" <kpmnlm@patmedia.net>

Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@yahoo.com suzjoxx
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:41 pm ((PST))

That is funny. My little bichon thoroughly enjoyed the rabbit my cat
caught and killed the other day. Good kitty. Free food. I like that.
Suzanne
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
>
> Well my wheatens are progressing nicely as I

Messages in this topic (4)
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7d. Re: Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:54 pm ((PST))

"miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
Is this type of response to rabbits typical??? Unless you
> tell me rabbits are super-nutritious, I'm not sure it is something I
> would go out of my way to buy again!
*****
I think it is a rabbit thing. My two cats, the border collie and one
golden quite like their bunny meals. The golden is perfectly happy
eating rabbit fur and all. The other golden likes his bunny sans fur
and I have to open the belly for him. My big Lab flat out refuses to
eat it. He carries it around, would be delighted to fetch it
indefinitely...but he won't eat it. Oh well.

I don't consider rabbit super-nutritious so I am content to feed rabbit
to those that appreciate it and not force the issue for those that do
not.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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8. Deer carcases
Posted by: "Pug Lady" showpugs@gmail.com mo_cowgirl_2000
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:42 pm ((PST))

A man that processes deer is giving me two deer (spine and ribs with
quite a bit of meat still attached) but g do not know how to feed
these big things! I have three pugs and a weim. Can i just give them
the entire thing in the back yard? Thanks in advance!
rebeca

--
Rebeca and The Pugs
www.DoolittleAcres.com

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Enough Variety?
Posted by: "mrbob02140" bob_roth@comcast.net mrbob02140
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:42 pm ((PST))

Thanks for the feedback... I will try to find other protein sources at
a reasonable price. Turkey for sure should be cheap now , so I will add
that. How do I know if he needs the fish oil?

Bob

Messages in this topic (4)
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10. HELP!!
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:44 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: ALL RESPONSES MUST BE PRIVATE. PLEASE, NO POSTING TO THE LIST.

Sorry this is a little off topic for this list, but I have a friend in a bit of a situation.? I fear he could be losing his bitch...does anyone know anything about peritonitis??? If you know anything, please e-mail me privately.

Thank you
Chelsea
________________________________________________________________________
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11. Must Read
Posted by: "logbreath2000" elisabethlasser@sbcglobal.net logbreath2000
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:34 pm ((PST))

I've been feeding my dog raw for 2 month now - it hasn't been 'plain sailing' all the way so
far.
We've had diarhea and throwing up, he has refused to eat certain meats ......
I've spend a great deal of money so far -the dog looks good on the raw diet, but he looked
good on kibble too- except he got every infection going, which was the reason I switched
to raw.....
BUT: he eats dirt and grass and other animal poop-which (poop) he hasn't done since he
was a puppy.
Now he has eye discharge - eye infection????
He is a young dog - coming up to two and a half years old.
Seems to me he's lacking in some nutrition - which?
I feed whatever he will eat: beef: grounf and ribs, lamb necks, ground turkey, turkey
wings, liver, kidney all in small amounts, raw eggs with shell
I even give him veggie mush, Salmon oil, Vitamin E, Probiotics, Enzymes

http://www.dogs-training.net/articles/dog-food/Dogs-Can-Look-Good-An-A-Bad-
Diet.html

Please reply
Elisabeth

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12a. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:35 pm ((PST))

And omega 3 rich fish are salmon,Jack Mackerral,Herring, sardine,Anchovi etc.

I do not think Tilapia is big on omega3. Good for variety maybe but not for omega purpose.

~~~~~~~~~~~
That's right, the omega3 rich fish are all (deep water?) ocean fish from cold waters, and tilapia is a freshwater cichlid (same family as angelfish and oscars) whose native habitat is a lake in Africa. Plus, the vast majority of tilapia is farmed, so even if it was a good omega3 fish, the pellets farmed fish are fed would lower the fatty acids just as it does in the other meats we feed out critters.

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12298

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Trichinosis
From: angelis20107

2a. Re: Digesting bone
From: Andrea
2b. Re: Digesting bone
From: Sonja
2c. Re: Digesting bone
From: Andrea

3. Re: need a recipe for liver treat for training
From: Andrea

4.1. At my wits end!
From: sltahoek9s
4.2. Re: At my wits end!
From: Sonja
4.3. Re: At my wits end!
From: Mallory Kwiatkowski
4.4. Re: At my wits end!
From: Tina Berry
4.5. Re: At my wits end!
From: Andrea
4.6. Re: At my wits end!
From: sltahoek9s
4.7. Re: At my wits end!
From: Tina Berry
4.8. Re: At my wits end!
From: costrowski75
4.9. Re: At my wits end!
From: Morledzep@aol.com

5a. Re: certain meats cause panting
From: spricketysprock
5b. Re: certain meats cause panting
From: marlena_adema

6a. Re: How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: merril Woolf
6b. Re: How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: Tina Berry
6c. Re: How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: costrowski75
6d. Re: How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: Tina Berry

7a. question about marrow bones
From: marlena_adema
7b. Re: question about marrow bones
From: Sandee Lee
7c. Re: question about marrow bones
From: Andrea
7d. Re: question about marrow bones
From: Giselle

8a. Re: Enough Variety?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "angelis20107" angelis20107@yahoo.com angelis20107
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:29 am ((PST))

HI, I'm not Jolene, but the dog's owner, Shelley.
The answer to a few questions I've seen asked so far: We are a
rabies free country so no, there has not been any rabies vaccination,
we don't vaccinate for that here.

We do have the option to do a muscle biopsy, but have been told by
the lab in the states that will do it that it is unlikey we would get
a definite answer from this. They stated that the part of the muscle
that is biopsied would not necessarily be a part that was infected.
So far we have not found a lab that has a test for Trich. My pup is
very weak and does not have a lot of 'quality' muscle left, so we
have decided against this so far. We have been told this is the only
option we have for testing. And since she has started the treatment
for trich on Saturday, she has showed some improvements. So at this
point it is a wait and see. I do want to say that all 3 of the vets
treating my dog are from the US and Canada. The head veterinarian
went to Louisiana State and is still using them as consult in this
case as well as South Florida Veterinary Specialist. My dog was
scheduled to be sent to Florida for further treatment/diagnosis but
was not going to be allowed to re-enter Cayman due to her breed.

I am positive that she has not had any wild game here as there is not
really a lot here in Cayman! The other possibility is the rat
issue. She is usually is not outside unsupervised, but I'm not going
to positively swear she did not get a hold of a rat. However I have
rarely seen rats in my yard. The pig ears are frozen for a couple of
weeks before she gets them, so that part I do not understand either.
Thank you to those of you who have kindly responded and offered other
suggestions. I am going to check in to the toxic algae issue as
someone else here has mentioned.

Hoping for the best for my girl
Shelley

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "brutus_buckley"
<brutus_buckley@...> wrote:
>
> Jolene,
> If it were my dog, or my friend's dog, I would find a facility
> *somewhere* that could provide the proper testing. Perhaps a blood
or
> muscle sample could be sent out to a lab by your vet.
Unfortunately,
> even if the test confirms that it is trich, it would be difficult
to
> prove the source. FWIW, trich larvae is killed by freezing. This is
> from wikipedia:
> Freezing pork less than 6 inches thick for 20 days at 5 °F
(−15 °C) or
> three days at −4 °F (−20 °C) kills larval worms.
> Pig ears would in fact be less than 6 inches thick but the temp and
> duration of freezing would be unknown.
>
> Being as this is not your dog, are you sure the dog was not fed
wild
> game of any kind? Honestly, in the same situation, I would probably
> jump to the same conclusions you did, but the reality is that at
this
> point they are just that: assumptions. Please find a way to get the
> proper testing done and report the results to us. I sincerely hope
that
> this isn't trich, that it did not come from imported US pork and,
most
> of all, that the bullie recovers.
>
> -Renee W.
>

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Digesting bone
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:30 am ((PST))

> My older lab devoured it, the puppy cleaned off the meat and chewed
> a little bit of the bone off.

Did the pupster have any other meat with the meal besides what she
got off the bone? It's probable that she had too much bone at once
and her stomach decided to return it to sender. Pork bones are more
dense than poultry bones as well so they should take longer to
digest. Perhaps her stomach wasn't up for letting them sit in there
until they were fully digested.

> If bone doesn't get digested by the stomach at all, is it an
> idication that I'm feeding too much bone?

In the case of the leg bone it is probably because the bone was too
large to digest completely.

> She seems to digest duck backs just fine, it's all the other bones
> that seem to not get processed 100%.

Is she swallowing large pieces with minimal crunching? You might try
feeding larger portions that aren't easily gulpable say, a half
chicken instead of a quarter.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Digesting bone
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:52 am ((PST))

>>Did the pupster have any other meat with the meal besides what she
got off the bone?

No, she just had the pork bone with meat on it, and she got a minimal amount
of bone because she knawed on the edges until she got tired and stopped.
What she threw up was a lot of stinky meat with the small bone pieces that
she had managed to get off. We let her re-eat it.

>>>You might try
feeding larger portions that aren't easily gulpable say, a half
chicken instead of a quarter.

I have a few questions on this...how does everyone manage to feed large if
the "large" amount exceeds what the dog's daily intake should be? Should I
feed a whole duck and take it away from her when she's eaten what I think is
adequate? She has zero behavioral issues, so I'd hate to accidentally create
one by stealing her food after every meal. Or maybe I could trade her for a
pork chunk. :-)

Sonja

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: Digesting bone
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:02 pm ((PST))

> Should I feed a whole duck and take it away from her when she's eaten
> what I think is adequate?

Exactly. Since she's still relatively new you don't want to let her
eat her fill because she might eat too much and end up with loose
stools. If you want you can slowly work her up to bigger meals down
the line followed by little/no meals the next day.

> Or maybe I could trade her for a pork chunk. :-)

Yup, see, you have the right instincts. Trade for something cool like
a chicken foot or a favorite toy.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

3. Re: need a recipe for liver treat for training
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:34 am ((PST))

Do a search on the rawchat list

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/rawchat

There have been lots of discussions about treats over there, but it's
off topic for this list.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kzyocy" <kzy01@...> wrote:
>
> what kind of liver treat recipe can I make or give my 12 week old
> pup, Hercules, for training?

Messages in this topic (1)
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4.1. At my wits end!
Posted by: "sltahoek9s" crazy4k9@aol.com sltahoek9s
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:52 am ((PST))

I recently posted about my 13 month old labrador excessive panting after eating and
urinating much more frequently, occasionally messing in the house again. She's been eating
raw 2 weeks now.
Last night she panted a little after eating. I took her out and she had a mucousy stool that
was semi-formed. Well early this morning I had the privilege to awaken to the sound of her
liquid diarrhea all over her dog bed and my floor, followed by urination. I'm getting so
frustrated with the messes. It's like she has no control over her bowels anymore. I've kept
her only on chicken. Usually she gets half a chicken a day and the included organ meats
every other day. I've seen no correlation between organ feeding and upset stomach. Once or
twice I've given her just a couple thighs and drums. The change between whole chicken and
parts does seem to correlate to previous diarrhea. The only other thing she has had was an
egg last night for the first time. I figured since it came from a chicken she wouldn't have an
issue. Any thoughts? Should I try a different protein?
My GSD has always had a sensitive stomach, but he's doing great on pork. He's also had
rabbit and fish now with no issue. Yet my lab, who previously could eat anything it seemed
without upset, can't even stay normal on chicken. I was going to try them both on turkey
over thanksgiving, but now I'm not sure. All of my friends and family think this is justification
not to feed raw, that i'm poisoning her with bad bacteria. I'm at my wits end. Please Help!!!

-Tammy C.-

Messages in this topic (34)
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4.2. Re: At my wits end!
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:30 pm ((PST))

Are you sure the chicken you're feeding isn't enhanced?? In my experience, the salts in enhanced meats can cause excessive thirst, frequent urination, stomach upset, and heavy panting.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________

4.3. Re: At my wits end!
Posted by: "Mallory Kwiatkowski" m_k_jesusfreak3@yahoo.com m_k_jesusfreak3
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:30 pm ((PST))

maybr she is detoxing?? when they do that, they get better before they get worse. or she just got a piece of bad meat, and it will pass. I wouldn't give up on raw just yet.
mallory

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (34)
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4.4. Re: At my wits end!
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:30 pm ((PST))

"Usually she gets half a chicken a day and the included organ meats every
other day"

Hi there - how much does she weigh? Over feeding will cause loose stools;
also you might try taking the excess skin and fat off the chicken for a
couple of weeks. It takes a good month or so for them to adjust to raw.
You might add some plain yogurt or digestive enzymes to help her thru the
transition. Pure pumkin will help the loose stools - I would recommend
giving a couple tablespoons of each daily for awhile.

But I am curious what she weighs - 1/2 a chicken is probably around
2-2.5lbs; my 18 month olds get about
1.5 lbs daily and I run them a mile in the am and a mile in the pm.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________

4.5. Re: At my wits end!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:58 pm ((PST))

Sorry you are having a hard time, Tammy. Have you tried cutting back
on the amount of food she is eating? Half a chicken sounds like a
lot of food for a lab to me, unless you are feeding small chickens.
I think the egg was a little much for her since she isn't doing great
digestively just yet. Here's what I would recommend: go back to
feeding just chicken(or rabbit/turkey/some not too fatty food), no
organs no eggs, nothing else. To be safe you could trim off the
extra fatty parts you see on the chicken. Make sure you aren't
overfeeding her and possibly split the day's food into two meals. If
her stools firm up, keep her on just chicken for about two weeks
before you add in organs or another protein.

As far as the urination goes, I know my pups urinated more often when
they switched over. As the bladder control gets better they just
take a couple of really long pees during the day.

And about the panting, I don't have much of an answer for you. When
my GSP mix was a puppy he used to pant a lot and eventually he just
stopped doing it, no idea why. I have read other posts from owners
who notice increased panting with newly switched dogs. They report
it eventually goes away as well. I speculate that there might be
some connection with a dog suddenly having lots more bio available
energy in the body with the new raw food, but I have no science to
back that up. Makes me wish I studied biology instead of physics.

Take a deep breath and go back to the basics with your girl. Let us
know how it goes, ok?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sltahoek9s" <crazy4k9@...> wrote:

> I was going to try them both on turkey over thanksgiving, but now
> I'm not sure. All of my friends and family think this is
> justification not to feed raw, that i'm poisoning her with bad
> bacteria. I'm at my wits end. Please Help!!!

Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________

4.6. Re: At my wits end!
Posted by: "sltahoek9s" crazy4k9@aol.com sltahoek9s
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:01 pm ((PST))

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm going to stick with it and try to simplify. I don't think
the chicken is enhanced, but i'm definitely going to triple check before I buy the next set.

My lab weighs 52 lbs. She is small compared to all her siblings and I grew her lean to avoid
potential skeletal problems. Her breeder told me she was undernourished and that had
stunted her growth (his breeding/show dogs are all kept heavy). He told me to largely
increase her food intake. This was right before I switched her. So she is eating almost 5%
body weight. I'm not sure if he's right about her growth or not. I think I will cut her back,
but will she still grow the necessary amounts while staying lean?

Thanks again,

-Tammy C.-

Messages in this topic (34)
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4.7. Re: At my wits end!
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:07 pm ((PST))

"My lab weighs 52 lbs"

Mine weigh 85-95 lbs and get 1.5 lbs per day. She will still gradually grow
on 100% raw - you don't need to overfeed her - I suspect this is the issue
here. Glad to hear you are going to stick to it - best decision I ever made
for my dogs.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________

4.8. Re: At my wits end!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:41 pm ((PST))

"sltahoek9s" <crazy4k9@...> wrote:

> My lab weighs 52 lbs. She is small compared to all her siblings
and I grew her lean to avoid
> potential skeletal problems. Her breeder told me she was
undernourished and that had
> stunted her growth (his breeding/show dogs are all kept heavy).
*****
The breeder is nuts. If you had malnourished your Lab, you'd be
seeing far more fallout than mere size. This strikes me more as a
defense of kibble than any useful support from the breeder.

Kibblefed dogs and pups are doughy; it is sadly not uncommon for a
breeder whose dogs do not have "enough" bone to bulk the dog up in a
ridiculous attempt to fool the judge. It's terribly unfortunate that
some judges are indeed fooled by such dietary legerdemain.

He told me to largely
> increase her food intake. This was right before I switched her.
*****
Depends of course on the size of the chicken you are feeding half of,
but--for my 55lb Lab when she was not too old--half a normal chicken
was too much food. Not that she didn't want to try, just that the
results were, um, counterproductive. A leg quarter was a fine meal
for her, much to her dismay.

I think you should take the girl back down to 2% or so if that amount
is good for her; the breeder be damned. If you've got a sow's ear
(not that you do, don't misunderstand), don't try to make it into a
silk purse--make it the best gosh darn sow's ear anyone ever saw.

If you feel she can use some extra food (probably she doesn't,
probably your instincts are spot on), don't increase her meal size;
increase the daily intake gently over time AND feed the increased
amount in multiple small meals so she can digest everything.

Growing is as much genetics as it is nutrition. My guess is you got
a small Lab, and it may even be that the breeder with intent selected
for you--a mere pet owner--a puppy that was judged not to be show
ring material. How nice to be able to blame one's breeding foibles
on the dog owner.

Ignore the breeder. Feed your girl food that sustains and nourishes
her in amounts that allow her to digest the food and actually benefit
from it. When she's fully growth, she's fully grown.

Skip a meal or two, cut back on her intake, cut out everything but
her primary protein, and don't expect overnight miracles. You can do
this!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________

4.9. Re: At my wits end!
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:46 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/20/2007 11:53:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
crazy4k9@aol.com writes:

I've seen no correlation between organ feeding and upset stomach. Once or
twice I've given her just a couple thighs and drums. The change between
whole chicken and
parts does seem to correlate to previous diarrhea. The only other thing she
has had was an
egg last night for the first time. I figured since it came from a chicken
she wouldn't have an
issue. Any thoughts? Should I try a different protein?

Tammy,

Eggs are known for their ability to cause canon butt.. you might want to
backoff on the eggs for awhile. They are great food for dogs that can tolerate
them, but if they give your dogs the squirts it's probably not worth it.

The difference between whole chickens and chicken parts is that the parts are
almost always enhanced. And when you buy whole chickens you have a fighting
chance of not having them enhanced.

also, it might be the difference in the AMOUNT of food. Dogs that are new to
raw don't always tolerate BIG meals well. most grocery store birds are about
5 lbs, and half of that is 2.5 lbs. which unless your lab is as big as my
wolfdog (150 lbs), is a LOT of food in one meal. And in the beginning, big
meals can cause loose stools.

i don't know how long you've been feeding raw, and if it was in your post i
must have missed it. I think that sticking with one meat that isn't setting
well with your dog for more than a couple weeks is counterproductive. So if you
feel the need to change to a new type of meat, then by all means, do it.

Catherine R.

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products.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (34)
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5a. Re: certain meats cause panting
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:01 pm ((PST))

I don't know what's causing this, but logic would say to simply stop
feeding your dogs pork. With enough variety, pork isn't a necessity at
all.

Jess & Toby

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering if ceratin foods, such as pork would make a dog hot
and panting. My dogs have been raw fed for almost a year now. Every
time I feed a pork shoulder the dogs pant all night long.

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: certain meats cause panting
Posted by: "marlena_adema" marlena_adema@yahoo.ca marlena_adema
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:46 pm ((PST))

Interesting you say that, cuz I just gave my dog a marrow bone (first
time) and she too seemed to be panting afterward, but not
excessively. I thought it was just excitement... Hmmmm.
Marlena

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Suzanne J" <suzjoxx@...> wrote:
>
> Just wondering what the long-term (positive) effects of raw feeding
> are. I started my dogs at ages 7 and 5 years. I'm wondering if anyone
> has an older dog they've been feeding since it was a pup, and what your
> experience is, versus a dog that was fed kibble for several years
> first. Are the always-raw fed dogs way more healthy?
>
> Suzanne
>

My experience has been that they rarely see a vet except for rabies shots and athletic
injuries related to their weekend jobs.
No dentals, no allergies.....no nothing.
Healthy into old age. Die of age related illnesses or mental instability. Average age: 16.

I did feed a 50/50 kibble/raw diet back in the late 80's-early 90's so I do have some
experience with kibble. Raw since 1977 to the present with the aforementioned dabble in
kibble.
Only time my dogs had a dental was during the kibble/raw years. None prior or since.

Never had a dog with cancer. (touch wood).

I do feed extreme variety from day one. Everything from regular meat to some foods that
has me or the person's watching going 'aaaggghhhh' and frequently.

I've not ever had any dogs with any digestive upsets. Doesn't happen. Everything goes
down enthusiastically and stays down. :-)) Never had a picky eater either.

Not sure what else I can say. I don't usually preach the raw diet to anyone and let my
dogs do the talking. They are out every weekend competing and they speak for
themselves.

Positive effects?...

Gleaming coats
no vet visits
clean teeth
no dentals
healthy glowing dogs
longevity
healthy old age
one touch immune system
tough stomachs
eager eaters
happy content dogs
easy back-yard cleanup!
no gas
good energy when working
no doggy breath
no doggy odor
less bathing

I could go on....

Merril

Messages in this topic (5)
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6b. Re: How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:07 pm ((PST))

"Are the always-raw fed dogs way more healthy?"

Mine is only 3 yrs old; raw fed from 9 weeks; minimally vaxed and has never
been to the vet... never had a reason and he goes everywhere.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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6c. Re: How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:13 pm ((PST))

"Suzanne J" <suzjoxx@...> wrote:
Are the always-raw fed dogs way more healthy?
*****
Since I do not have an older dog that I've been feeding since puppyhood
(unless you could 4 months old as puppy and six years as a long time) I
will let others address that question.

However, about rawfed dogs always being more healthy, I think the
answer is not necessarily. The hitch in your question is the
word "always". No, rawfed dogs are not always more healthy because
there's so much more than diet that affects health. If anyone believes
a species appropriate diet alone can make/keep a dog healthy, I've got
bridge AND some nice bottomland to sell them.

Diet is only part of the equation. It's important--and a dog cannot be
healthy without a healthy diet--but it's not enough, not all by its
lonesome.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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6d. Re: How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:46 pm ((PST))

"Diet is only part of the equation."

Ditto - which is why my two 18 mo olds are also vax free/chemical free in
addition to being weaned at 4 weeks onto raw. And not one issue with either
of them - they've never been to the vet either, again, no reason.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. question about marrow bones
Posted by: "marlena_adema" marlena_adema@yahoo.ca marlena_adema
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:04 pm ((PST))

I have read plenty about not giving "wreck" bones as many dogs break
thier teeth. I just got some marrow bones, as I have heard they are
good. Now, I don't know much about bones for dogs, but they look like
the big, weight bearing bones (same as rec bones?) only cut into 2
inch peices. I just want to confirm these are indeed okay to give?

Thanks kindly,
Marlena

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: question about marrow bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:18 pm ((PST))

Nope...those are indeed the "wreck" bones that damage teeth. Bones should
for the most part be edible unless they are covered with tons of meat (beef
shank for instance) and then removed when the meat is gone.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "marlena_adema" <marlena_adema@yahoo.ca>

Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: question about marrow bones
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:20 pm ((PST))

Nope, sorry. Marrow bones = wreck bones

Andrea

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "marlena_adema" <marlena_adema@...>
wrote:

> Now, I don't know much about bones for dogs, but they look
> like the big, weight bearing bones (same as rec bones?) only cut into
> 2 inch peices. I just want to confirm these are indeed okay to give?

Messages in this topic (4)
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7d. Re: question about marrow bones
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:26 pm ((PST))

Hi, Marlena!
Nope, those are w/rec/k bones, too!

Any bone labeled recreational, marrow, soup, dog bones are likely to be just
bare, too hard bones that will cause wear or tooth breakage over time.

In addition, 2 inch w/rec/k bones are asking to be swallowed by bigger dogs,
causing obstructions.

Its much better for dogs to provide them with larger meaty parts of critters
to give them not only a meal, but dental, mental and physical workouts and
emotional satisfaction at the same time.

I'd take these bones and get a refund for them where I bought them.

Get a lovely, cheap fresh pork ham or shoulder. LOTS of meat with some chewy
skin, fat and a lovely, mostly edible bone (depending on your dog's size).

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 20, 2007 4:43 PM, marlena_adema <marlena_adema@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> I have read plenty about not giving "wreck" bones as many dogs break
> their teeth. I just got some marrow bones, as I have heard they are
> good. Now, I don't know much about bones for dogs, but they look like
> the big, weight bearing bones (same as rec bones?) only cut into 2
> inch pieces. I just want to confirm these are indeed okay to give?
>
> Thanks kindly,
> Marlena
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Re: Enough Variety?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:47 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/20/2007 10:42:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bob_roth@comcast.net writes:

Should I add canned
salmon?

Is that enough variey? I give no suppliments though I am thinking of
adding some fish oil.

Bob,

no.. you should not add canned salmon, it's cooked and it has a rather high
sodium content. it may be ok to keep on hand for an emergency but it's not wolf
chow.

your dogs' diet seems very heavy on chicken.. you really should investigate
other meats. Try pork, lamb, goat, ducks, turkeys (especially right now), beef
often goes on sale for cheap this time of year.. i've seen 7 bone roasts for
less than $1.50 lb. i cut the bones out and give the big hunks o beef to the
dogs.

fish oil is nice, but unless your dog is demonstrating a need for it, it's
not necessary.

Catherine R.

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products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

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Messages in this topic (3)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12297

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
From: Andrea
1b. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
From: Elizabeth Hackley
1c. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
From: Eddie Scholten

2.1. New Member
From: lisakzuber
2.2. Re: New Member
From: Andrea

3a. Re: Excessive panting
From: shefy gupta

4a. Re: Bad meat??
From: rosey031801
4b. Re: Bad meat??
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Trichinosis
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: Trichinosis
From: brutus_buckley
5c. Re: Trichinosis
From: ginny wilken
5d. Trichinosis
From: MORGAN LEWIS

6a. Re: Venison question
From: costrowski75
6b. Re: Venison question
From: Suzanne J
6c. Re: Venison question
From: Suzanne J

7a. Re: Intro- new member
From: Celia George

8. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: Suzanne J

9. Rawfeeding and UTI
From: greytbizz

10. certain meats cause panting
From: Felicia Kost

11. ADMIN/VACCINES
From: costrowski75

12a. Enough Variety?
From: mrbob02140
12b. Re: Enough Variety?
From: Sonja

13. Digesting bone
From: Sonja

14. need a recipe for liver treat for training
From: kzyocy

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:24 am ((PST))

Here's what you do: donate the breeder supplied food to a shelter,
buy a chicken, start feeding. Seriously, you know that feeding raw
is best, it's just that you need to take that first step. You might
be terrified the first time you put down a chicken quarter, but I
promise that watching him eat what he is designed for and seeing the
satisfied look that only a raw fed pup can have will whisk away all
concerns. Besides, I've brought up two big puppies on raw and
neither of them went through the destructive teething phase that all
puppy owners dread.

Come on, you know you want everyone to ooh and ahh over how calm,
beautiful, odorless, and soft your puppy is.

Since vaccine discussion is way ot for this group, head to

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/jstsayno2vaccs/
or
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TruthAboutVaccines/

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Scholten <shirl-ed@...>
wrote:

> I've been reading this list and various other information for a few
weeks now. We've been planning to feed our Golden Retriever puppy
the raw way, but now we have him home from the breeder today (with
lots of puppy and dog food supplied), and it's suddenly a nervous
time to decide NOT to give him any of the 'processed' food we have
been given for him.

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
Posted by: "Elizabeth Hackley" twodobemom@yahoo.com twodobemom
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:43 am ((PST))

I would donate or dump the supplied food and go raw.
As to vaccinations, I say no! Read the archives for
lots of info. It's scary on all fronts but we've all
been there (some of us still nervous) but there's lots
of "veterans" on this list that are very willing and
able to help.

Elizabeth Hackley, Flicka, Gunther Guinness with Loki & Max (waiting at the bridge)

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Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:28 am ((PST))

Eddie Scholten <shirl-ed@...> wrote:
>
> We've been planning to feed our Golden Retriever puppy the raw way,
but now we have him home from the breeder today (with lots of puppy
and dog food supplied), and it's suddenly a nervous time to decide
NOT to give him any of the 'processed' food we have been given for
him.
*****
Oh, there is no doubt at all that starting RIGHT NOW is the best time
to start any puppy--and certainly a golden puppy--on a raw diet. Not
only will you have an easier time introducing new proteins, flavors,
textures, you'll also putting real food into him right away. From
the kid's perspective, there's no reason to delay the right stuff.

Please don't feed kibble. Goldens have a hard enough time of it
these days: Do whatever you can to support and sustain a healthy
lifestyle.

Whatever anxieties you have, we've had. Spill your guts, we can help.

> > Also, regarding vaccinations, I've read that raw fed dogs need
little if any vet care (accidents aside), and I'm also nervous about
NOT going down the vaccine route too.
*****
Vaccines are not on topic for the rawfeeding list. Please post your
concerns to RawChat, TruthAboutVaccines or Justsayno2vax.

Healthy raw fed dogs are likely to require less vet attention than
unhealthy ones--part of your job as a responsible pet owner is to
make and keep your animals healthy, to know when to call in the big
guns, and to determine which big guns are most appropriate.

There are diseases than are not likely to be addressed without the
ministrations of a qualified health care professional. That said,
there are other sources of qualified health care that are not
allopathic. Please use the RawChat list for support.

Welcome!
Chris O
(Two goldens, one Lab, one border collie, two cats)

Messages in this topic (5)
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1d. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
Posted by: "Eddie Scholten" shirl-ed@hotmail.com shirley11964
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:53 am ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES

Hello again and thanks for the replies and support.

We have just given Floris his first chicken thigh and he's going at it 'full steam ahead'! It's a wonderful sight to see a dog eating like a dog should eat.

In England (where I'm from) we have an old saying to describe a person who is strong, healthy and looking good:

'As Fit As A Butcher's Dog!'

In the old days, as we know, it was common practice that dogs were fed raw, and of course, the butcher's dog got the best and the most food.

Thanks again,

Shirley

(Shirley, Ed, Connor and puppy Floris).
In Holland, Europe.

Messages in this topic (5)
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2.1. New Member
Posted by: "lisakzuber" lisakzuber@yahoo.com lisakzuber
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:43 am ((PST))

I have a 6 year old Neo Mastiff named Louie. He recently started
losing weight. We moved about 4 months ago and I thought he was just
homesick. He is eating his dry food but it is not putting weight
back on him in fact he started looking REALLY thin about 2 weeks
ago. I am not sure how much dry food he is really eating as he keeps
dumping it over. I got him a new bowl when we moved and I think he
hates it. ANyways, I started getting him canned food to go on top of
the dry food and I was also putting 2 raw eggs on top in the evening
feed. I used to just keep a large bowl out and he ate whenever he
felt like it. Now I am feeding him 2x's a day. He looks a little
better more energy, coat is looking shiny again BUT he is still
really thin like I can see his rib bones. I am sure all of you are
cringing at what I am feeding him after everything I have been
reading. I had actually never heard of the RAW diet before. I bought
him a small game hen and am wondering if it is o.k. to give it to
him. I made him these meatballs that someone told me would put
weight back on him. It is raw ground beef(27% fat), peanut butter, &
cream cheese. It also called for wheat germ and oatmeal but after
everything I read on here I opted to leave those things out because
he has always had a sensitive stomach. He loved them though and
didn't seem to have any problem eating raw ground beef.
Also, what should I start him out on? Is the game hen o.k.?
Any raw meat known to help them gain weight? He is such a loyal dog
and I feel so bad that he is this thin. I feel like I have let him
down. Any help would be so wonderful.
Thanks. Lisa

Messages in this topic (154)
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2.2. Re: New Member
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:52 am ((PST))

Hi, Lisa, welcome to the group. For a mastiff I would feed larger
things than game hens, more along the lines of chickens or bigger. You
want to feed about 2% of his ideal weight every day. Start with just
one protein like chicken and after a week or two add in another one.
You shouldn't worry about putting weight on him right now, just get him
acclimated to a raw diet. He'll put the weight on himself with real
food. Ask if you have more questions.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lisakzuber" <lisakzuber@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 6 year old Neo Mastiff named Louie. He recently started
> losing weight.

Messages in this topic (154)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Excessive panting
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:44 am ((PST))

it might they are trying to cool off too..snwoy overheats easily with all his fur... i got one of those cool pad bed things you fill with water...i have to fill it up today...

best
shefy and snowy

Greta Hill <GretaHill@aol.com> wrote:
just wanted to know if I'm giving too much food or should switch
proteins or if this is all a part of her transitioning >>

Panting is something that is seen often in new to raw dogs, if you do a
search I'm sure find posts with more information. I have one dog that
panted for a while after she was switched, but eventually stopped.

Greta

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Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: Bad meat??
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:45 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES

What about the meat my sog buries in the dirt on a 90 degree day and
eats it three days later...?...
He never gets sick.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@> wrote:
> >
> > Well the deal is that I had some deer meat that was frozen, but
the
> > freezer malfunctioned and some of the meat defrosted just a
little
> not
> > all the way through, but it has a bad smell now. Would it be okay
to
> > still feed that to the dog??
> *****
> I expect so. I had a freezer go out on me this spring. Everything
was
> defrosted a LOT before I figured out what had happened. The
venison
> was still cold but entirely defrosted. I moved it to another
freezer
> and I am continuing to feed it. Mine smelled riper than it had
when I
> got it but it was never reprehensible and my dogs (and cats) are
doing
> fine on it.
>
> Your dog though, your venision, your choice.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (14)
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4b. Re: Bad meat??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:44 am ((PST))

"rosey031801" <rosey031801@...> wrote:

>
> What about the meat my sog buries in the dirt on a 90 degree day and
> eats it three days later...?...
> He never gets sick.
*****
What about it then? I guess it's not bad meat, hey? Disgusting for us
perhaps, but within the realm of reason for a dog.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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5a. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:06 am ((PST))

Jolene Nelson <imperial_bloodlines@...> wrote:
>> If you notice I did say IF several times and I am not trying to dump
blame anywhere. I WAS asking for HELP and not attitude. I was hoping
someone would be able to suggest something which we may not have tested
for which could give the same symptoms. I'm not eager for this to be
trich.
*****
What sort of help can you get from us? We've offered sympathy, common
sense, recommendations to secure a qualified diagnosis, cautions to not
go off the deep end. What else can we do? I'm quite certain the
reference resources we have access to are the same you can use.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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5b. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:57 am ((PST))

Jolene,
If it were my dog, or my friend's dog, I would find a facility
*somewhere* that could provide the proper testing. Perhaps a blood or
muscle sample could be sent out to a lab by your vet. Unfortunately,
even if the test confirms that it is trich, it would be difficult to
prove the source. FWIW, trich larvae is killed by freezing. This is
from wikipedia:
Freezing pork less than 6 inches thick for 20 days at 5 °F (−15 °C) or
three days at −4 °F (−20 °C) kills larval worms.
Pig ears would in fact be less than 6 inches thick but the temp and
duration of freezing would be unknown.

Being as this is not your dog, are you sure the dog was not fed wild
game of any kind? Honestly, in the same situation, I would probably
jump to the same conclusions you did, but the reality is that at this
point they are just that: assumptions. Please find a way to get the
proper testing done and report the results to us. I sincerely hope that
this isn't trich, that it did not come from imported US pork and, most
of all, that the bullie recovers.

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (14)
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5c. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:54 am ((PST))

On Nov 20, 2007, at 5:30 AM, Casey Post wrote:

>
> Jolene, any idea if this dog was vaccinated for rabies in the last six
> months?
>
> Casey
>
>

My thoughts exactly, Casey! There is never a systemic reaction this
strong which does not have its roots in individual weakness,
developed or inherited. And this one just screams of iatrogenic
cause. It's never all that important to know the external cause of
reactions like this, as the weakness will remain no matter how the
perceived adversary is attacked. If the terrain is not improved,
something else will strike it down.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
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5d. Trichinosis
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:28 am ((PST))

tHER IS A SEROLOGY TEST FOR THIS, ANY GOOD HOSPITAL OR BIO LAB SHOULD BE ABLE TO DETERMINE IF IT IS IN FACT TRICHINELLA. MORGAN

Demonstration of Trichinella larvae in tissue obtained by muscle biopsy, or
Positive serologic test for Trichinella

ginny wilken <gwilken@alamedanet.net> wrote:
On Nov 20, 2007, at 5:30 AM, Casey Post wrote:

>
> Jolene, any idea if this dog was vaccinated for rabies in the last six
> months?
>
> Casey
>
>

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (14)
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6a. Re: Venison question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:42 am ((PST))

"Suzanne J" <suzjoxx@...> wrote:
>That night he had gas that
> stunk up the whole house. He needed to go outside a few times in the
> middle of the night, so I assume he had diarrhea. I could hear his
> digestive system churning all night.
>
> So do you think this was from a new meat being introduced, and eating
> at least a pound of it (he's 80 pounds), or because the meat might be
> bad?
*****
Venison is game, it stands to reason it would smell a little gamey.
One pound of food for an 80lb dog is not at all excessive; my guess is
the new meat pushed his digestive system harder than it knew how to go,
thus the loose stools and gas and stomach noises.

FWIW, I've read of wolves stuffing themselves silly, taking a break to
go off produce loose stools, then returning to eat more from the
carcass. I suspect the difference is not the animal but rather time on
the job. Practice makes perfect.

I doubt the meat was "bad" in the sense of inedible. Oh, and diarrhea
is a medical condition, typically a symptom of bacteria run amok. It's
characterized by uncontrolled, explosive, watery stools. Loose stools
are generally "just" an indication of too much too soon.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Venison question
Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@yahoo.com suzjoxx
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:55 am ((PST))

Ha! Nice try on getting my carcasses, Andrea! I did have three
carcasses but gave one away to another local Michigan raw feeder.
Can only fit so much in my freezer.

Can't get carcasses from meat processors due to Michigan laws, so I
rely on local deer hunters.

Anyway, thanks for the information that the smell was because of new
meat. I just can't believe a smell like that could come out of my
sweet old lab. Man! He did fine with sheeps' heads a couple weeks
ago, so I didn't think the venison would be a big deal.

On a different topic, I belong to a list of bichon frise owners.
They are always griping about allergies and other really awful health
problems with their bichons. Two times I've gently brought up the
idea of raw feeding. DEAD SILENCE is what I get. No flames, no
inquiries about raw feeding, just dead silence. It's too funny.

Nothing cuter than a little white fluff of a bichon chomping on a
rabbit carcass. Happiest dog in the world.

Suzanne,
The Crazy Lady on the Bichon List
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> > So do you think this was from a new meat being

Messages in this topic (5)
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6c. Re: Venison question
Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@yahoo.com suzjoxx
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

Ah, yes, I see the distinction. My dog had loose stools, then,
definitely not diarrhea, judging from what I saw in the yard the next
day. And I didn't think one pound of meat was excessive, just
letting you know how much he ate of a new meat. That's about what I
feed him daily anyway.

He was quite helpful in maneuvering those rib cages for me. I'd hack
some ribs, he'd be pulling at it and moving it for me so I could get
to another section. This was my first carcass dismemberment. Sweet
old, Jakes helping his human dismember a carcass.

Suzanne
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "Suzanne J" <suzjoxx@> wrote:
> >That night he had gas that
> > stunk up the whole house. He needed to go outside a few times in
the
> > middle of the night, so I assume he had diarrhea. I could hear
his

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Intro- new member
Posted by: "Celia George" celiageorge77@yahoo.com celiageorge77
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:49 am ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. YOU MUST REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES!

Hi Tracy,
Thanks for your reply. Seamus is almost 6 months. He
is still teething. You make a good point about the
connection between bad breath and him still loosing
teeth. I currently feed him ground turkey or chicken
with a few ground up carrots and apples tossed in. I
have been hesitant to feed bones. I am scared that
Seamus could choke. I know this is a common
misconception that I am working on! I will take your
advice and try some turkey legs. Thanks again!
Celia

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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@yahoo.com suzjoxx
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:55 am ((PST))

Suzanne

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

9. Rawfeeding and UTI
Posted by: "greytbizz" greytbizz@yahoo.com greytbizz
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:56 am ((PST))

We have just started rawfeeding (approximately 9 weeks ago) and both
our greyhounds got urinary tract infections.

First Grace (8 yo)showed strange discharge and it turned out to be
vulvitis for which she was given injectable antibiotic BUT her urine
and stool still 'stink'.

Then Dreamer (6 yo) also had penile discharge which was cultured and
grew E.Coli and Staph and he is on a month of Baytril - urine
extremely strong and stool stinky.

Is this just a coincidence?

On another note, we have also started keeping the RMBs (poultry) in
open baggies in the fridge rather than freezing them (our freezer is
pretty small). Both dogs want to help us get them out to weigh at
mealtime - I am assuming because of the stench. So far no untoward
reactions to not-so-fresh meat.

Any thoughts out there?

Melanie & Marjo

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

10. certain meats cause panting
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:57 am ((PST))

I was wondering if ceratin foods, such as pork would make a dog hot and panting. My dogs have been raw fed for almost a year now. Every time I feed a pork shoulder the dogs pant all night long. It starts about 4 hours after they eat, which is often when I am trying to sleep. My dane pants so hard she wakes me up and I find her standing in her crate panting heavily and looking uncomfortable. I let her out to drink which she does excessivley and then to pee. She still comes in and pants. This seems to be the worst late at night or early mornin, and always after pork. I have tried feeding her early in the evening so she has plenty of time to rehydrate that helps, but not enough to let me sleep! I have tried rinsing the pork to wash off any excess salt. She sometimes pants after turkry as well but not nearly as bad. Don't think its a matter of temp. because I don't even have heat in the bedroom where we sleep and it 40-20 degrees outside. Is there anything I can do to stop this
other then not feed pork? It is a main source of variety and cheap. I have tried too buy pork without added salt or solutions. Is this some type of reaction? The heeler does this as well but he doesn't pant as hard or make nearly the noise. Any suggestions? This panting makes it realy hard to sleep and we all know where that leads! Sorry for the length. Thanks Felicia

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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11. ADMIN/VACCINES
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:05 am ((PST))

A reminder people--newcomers, veterans, recidivists alike--vaccines are
distinctly OFF TOPIC for the rawfeeding list and any such posts that
slip by moderators are not an indication that the decree has changed.

Vaccines may be discussed on RawChat, DogHealth, TruthAboutVaccines,
JustSayNo, other alternative health groups and other diet groups. Not
here though.

If you have questions please do not hesitate to ask them offlist.
Thanks.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Enough Variety?
Posted by: "mrbob02140" bob_roth@comcast.net mrbob02140
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:42 am ((PST))

First I'd like to thank everyone for all the info I've gotten from
reading other postings. I've been feeding raw since March and my dog is
doing great and loving it. My only concern is if he is getting enough
variety. His diet consists mainly of chicken hind quarters, a chicken
breast with bone in once a week, beef once a week and rabbit once every
week or two with a few ounces of beef liver just about every day. He
loves the beef liver but hates chicken liver. Go figure. He won't eat
chicken giblets unless they are partially cooked. I have also tried
trout which he wouldn't touch - too bad, because my brother lives on a
trout pond and I could get all I want for free. Should I add canned
salmon?

Is that enough variey? I give no suppliments though I am thinking of
adding some fish oil.

Thanks for any feeedback.

Bob

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: Enough Variety?
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:28 am ((PST))

>>I have also tried trout which he wouldn't touch - too bad, because my brother lives on a
>>trout pond and I could get all I want for free.

I wound up with 10 pounds of cod that my dogs wouldn't touch. I put salmon oil on the fillets, and they gobbled it up. Might be worth a try if you're considering adding fish oil, anyway.

Sonja

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13. Digesting bone
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:42 am ((PST))

Do different bones from different animals digest differently? Both of my labs digest duck, turkey, and chicken bones fairly well. Last night I gave both of them a pork shoulder bone with some meat on it. My older lab devoured it, the puppy cleaned off the meat and chewed a little bit of the bone off. I threw the remaining bone away when it was clear she was done with it.

At 2am this morning the puppy vomited the bone pieces up. They were small and should have been easily digestable, but since she hasn't had pork bone before could it be her stomach isn't used to it yet? She's been handling pork meat just fine, so the only thing different is the bone.

Also, on more than one occasion I've seen bones pass through the dogs that physically shouldn't have been able to wind their way down the digestive tract (duck leg bone....the older lab gulped it before could get to her). If bone doesn't get digested by the stomach at all, is it an indication that I'm feeding too much bone? Or could something else be wrong with my dog? She seems to digest duck backs just fine, it's all the other bones that seem to not get processed 100%. Is this normal?

Sonja

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14. need a recipe for liver treat for training
Posted by: "kzyocy" kzy01@earthlink.net kzyocy
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:28 am ((PST))

what kind of liver treat recipe can I make or give my 12 week old pup,
Hercules, for training? I would appreciate any recipes! thanks,
Kristina

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