Feed Pets Raw Food: Sep 25, 2007

Tuesday, September 25, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12075

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. off topic hot ears
From: lhmcmaken
1b. Re: off topic hot ears
From: Laurie Swanson

2.1. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Mary
2.2. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Shannon Hully

3.1. Re: I've had enough - RAW blood levels
From: Anna Labriola

4.1. Re: whole vs. ground foods (was Feeding Heads)
From: Laurie Swanson

5a. FYI for newbies
From: Anna Labriola
5b. Re: FYI for newbies
From: Giselle

6a. Re: Hot Spots Problem - Is it the Food?
From: Giselle

7a. Crab bait?
From: girlndocs
7b. Re: Crab bait?
From: Karen Swanay

8a. {Raw Feeding} A RAW diet help control seizures?
From: Brandi Bryant
8b. Re: {Raw Feeding} A RAW diet help control seizures?
From: Kaitlin Fraser

9a. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: Bumble1994@aol.com
9b. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: costrowski75

10.1. Re: Feeding Heads
From: Laurie Swanson

11. new to RAW, but my English Mastiff is loving it
From: mastiffmom08012

12. Re: re vet said not to feed raw liver
From: tantelin22@aol.com

13a. Re: Success! ( Question of my own on poop
From: costrowski75
13b. Re: Success! ( Question of my own on poop
From: Kaitlin Fraser

14a. Re: Fish body oil
From: costrowski75

15.1. ADMIN/Re: I've had enough - quitting raw- swiffer
From: costrowski75

16a. Going to start!
From: T Smith
16b. Re: Going to start!
From: Maggie Smith

17. feeding fish and smaller bones
From: michelle.pinkney

Messages
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1a. off topic hot ears
Posted by: "lhmcmaken" lhmcmaken@yahoo.com lhmcmaken
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:07 pm ((PDT))

i trust this group, so here is my problem. my dane with natural ears
has been spending more time lying down in the woods. real dry and
dusty now. i cleaned his ears a couple of weeks ago and they were
dirty. and the last couple of days he has been shaking his head,
flapping the ears, and today i felt them and they were hot. and dark
red inside. i cleaned them again and got brown dirt. no blood. none
of the dark wax that i got a couple of weeks ago. i have not had to
deal with this before so am open to your good ideas. thanks.
taek care,
lynda and maude and franklin

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: off topic hot ears
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:10 pm ((PDT))

Is he getting any grains/starches/veggies? Removing all of those items
helped my dog's ears finally clear up.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (2)
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2.1. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Mary" maryjwilliams@comcast.net ryanlw23
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:08 pm ((PDT))

Tina:

Maybe this link might help.

http://www.antechdiagnostics.com/clients/antechNews/2003/jun03_02.htm

The conclusion was: "While a more detailed analysis has yet to be
completed, these results indicate that dogs fed raw meats (natural
carnivores) have higher red blood cell and blood urea nitrogen levels
than dogs fed cereal-based food (obligate omnivores). Thus, the normal
reference values for dogs fed raw food diets should probably be revised."

On the flip side, I would also Google the opposing views about
Antech's "study."

--Mary Williams

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
>
> "A raw diet is not going to cause pancreatitis, kidney disease, upper
> respiratory or any other kind of infections, nosebleeds, elevated
blood cell
> counts...or cancer!"
>
> I thought I read on this list that blood levels are different for a
raw fed
> dog vs kibble fed and if the vet doesn't know the difference, find
another
> vet. Can someone confirm this?
> --
> Tina Berry - MT
> Kriegshund German Shepherds
> Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
> www.kriegshundgsds.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (41)
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2.2. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:13 pm ((PDT))

Vickie,

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with all of this!! :-( I can't
help with the hubby problem, it took me a long time to work mine up to
where he's at, and I'm still in charge of the feeding! LOL

As for the pancreatitis, I can give you my perspective. I had a German
Shepherd (a breed genetically prone to pancreatitis and EPI which is
essentially pancreatitis that never goes away) who had pancreatitis as
a puppy (while being fed ki**le) and it developped into EPI. Fast
forward to early this year: My then 12.5yr old Shepherd had
deteriorated (due to age) and we were thinking he was going to go any
time. I had already switched my cats to raw but had been worried to
try him because of his digestive disease. I found a Yahoo group for
EPI dog owners that had an in-depth recipe for raw feeding EPI dogs and
I finally took the plunge. It did absolute WONDERS for my old, slowly
dying before my eyes, dog. (don't think it's the fountain of youth
here, he had to be put down at the end of July, but he'd have been put
down months before that if we hadn't switched.)

He felt better, he regained interest in food, he smelled better, his
poo (which is an obsession with people dealing with pancreatitis/EPI!
LOL) improved tremendously (quantity, quality... :-D), his teeth got
better, his breath was great...

What I'm getting at is that this dog with a digestive disease for 11
YEARS was greatly helped by this diet, whereas having him on Science
Diet ID for all those years did worse than nothing for him (we had to
hand feed him the ki**le by the time I switched him, he wouldn't eat
any other way, and even then he was only eating to make me happy.)

As someone pointed out, dogs evolved to be able to eat feces from other
species. ...I'm *fairly* certain that what I buy at my grocery store
or my butcher's is lower in bacteria and such than what my GSD used to
gobble out of the kitty litter at every possible opportunity! LOL
Meanwhile my new, never-do-anything-to-upset-you-if-at-all-possible
Greyhound revels in finding rabbit poo in my backyard and eating it.
Dogs is dogs and their stomach acid and digestive enzymes have evolved
to deal with food that is "high" (read: rotten!), they are fully
equipped to deal with human-grade food from the grocery store.

I second (third?) the suggestion to get a second opinion. When my vet
checked over my Grey last week (first visit) she asked what I fed him.
I gave half-truths (I hate lying so *technically* everything I said was
true! LOL). I said when I got him he was on Ol' Roy and that we
wanted to switch him once he'd had some time to adjust so he didn't
have too much stress on his system at once. She gave me a concerned
look and asked what I planned to switch him to. I said we hadn't
chosen one thing in particular (chicken? venison? beef? LOL) and
would see what was out there and choose something appropriate. (My
tongue was so far into my cheek I was sure it was going to come out the
other side! hehe)

Pancreatitis can be something that doesn't recur, I'll have my fingers
crossed that if it is that, it is only a one-time thing and nothing
more.

Shannon H.

Messages in this topic (41)
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3.1. Re: I've had enough - RAW blood levels
Posted by: "Anna Labriola" taggartgalt@yahoo.com taggartgalt
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:08 pm ((PDT))

> I thought I read on this list that blood levels are different for a
raw fed
> dog vs kibble fed and if the vet doesn't know the difference, find
another
> vet. Can someone confirm this?

Not that I'm a veteran, but Khan has been on only raw food for at least
13 weeks(3 months and a week.) He just got neutered and had pre op
blood levels that were normal per vet staff. (Now my doc does advocate
raw.)

Anna and Khan

Messages in this topic (41)
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4.1. Re: whole vs. ground foods (was Feeding Heads)
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:13 pm ((PDT))

There are a lot of benefits to feeding whole parts, not ground. Dental
hygiene (a biggie!), mental/physical engagement, satisfaction of
chewing/tearing...it also gives the digestive system more time to
prepare, with enzymes, etc., so digestion is better. It is better for
blood sugar issues/pancreatitis, etc. to not feed ground.

I do feed Kongs, stuffed w/ground meat and frozen, a couple times a
week, though--I think it's ok sometimes, and it takes my dog 1/2 hr. to
get through a frozen Kong, so it's not the same as giving him a bowlful.

It's pretty easy to feed in a crate, on a towel or blanket,
outside...and it's quite fun to watch them eat "real" food.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "M Williams" <twilli55@...> wrote:
>
> Can you just feed like ground meat or does it have to be the
whole "chicken leg" per say?

Messages in this topic (36)
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5a. FYI for newbies
Posted by: "Anna Labriola" taggartgalt@yahoo.com taggartgalt
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:18 pm ((PDT))

Hello, all.

I just wanted to share my story for all the newer newbies than me. I
got my pup at 10 weeks old(brown doberman.) The breeder fed his dad
all raw, but the pups kibble in the am, chicken drumsticks and/or
sardines at night. A week after we got him home, he began having
diarrhea. I took him off the raw, but the diarrhea continued. We
decided to try all raw instead and from then on, he wouldn't eat the
kibble at all!! Now, for about a month or two, he would alterate
between softer stool and solid stool. It really took him (and me) a
long time to get his bowels adjusted. Now, he recently ate most of a
beef heart and had the dark brown, runny, liquidy poo, but, the next
bowel movement was completely normal.

I will say, however, that every time he had runny stool(like the time
he woke me up four times one night cuz mom foolishly gave him a whole
chicken liver a few weeks into the game) he acted 'urgently' before I
took him outside. He did have some bad, bad cannonball squirts that
scared me. But, once he pooped, he was back to normal, nubbie
wagging and all. No distress at all, regardless of how often or how
he went. I don't think their soft stool distresses them anywhere
near as much as it bothers us. ("Oh, it's gotta come out, sigh,
there, it's out. Hey, mom!!")

Hope this can reassure some new people out there. Sometimes it takes
a while for their stomachs to settle down(or for us to get it
right!! :O) ) But, seriously, I can't ever see myself going back.
And, I'm a vegetarian/organic eater, too. Why would I feed myself
a "natural" diet, then feed my furkid some processed crap?? And
yeah, it's hard to cut up the meat(ewww!!) But, I suck it up cuz
it's what's best for the pup.

Now, he'll be 26 weeks on Thursday, beautiful coat(he did have
dandruff and puppy staph,) beautiful teeth, growing 1-3 pounds a
week. A healthy, happy pup. People stop me on the street and tell
me how beautiful he is.

Hope my positive story can provide some reassurance.

Anna and Khan

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: FYI for newbies
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:03 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Anna!
I'm glad Khan has adjusted well!

A post from someone like you who has recently worked through these
distressful episodes must be a lot more reassuring than a ton of us
long time raw feeders, who say "Its just loose poops, it'll be fine,
really." ^_^

Thanks!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello, all.
>
> I just wanted to share my story for all the newer newbies than me.
<snip>
> Hope this can reassure some new people out there. Sometimes it takes
> a while for their stomachs to settle down(or for us to get it
> right!! :O) ) But, seriously, I can't ever see myself going back.
> And, I'm a vegetarian/organic eater, too. Why would I feed myself
> a "natural" diet, then feed my furkid some processed crap?? And
> yeah, it's hard to cut up the meat(ewww!!) But, I suck it up cuz
> it's what's best for the pup.
>
> Now, he'll be 26 weeks on Thursday, beautiful coat(he did have
> dandruff and puppy staph,) beautiful teeth, growing 1-3 pounds a
> week. A healthy, happy pup. People stop me on the street and tell
> me how beautiful he is.
>
> Hope my positive story can provide some reassurance.
>
> Anna and Khan
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Hot Spots Problem - Is it the Food?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Chrystine!
Its not likely your dog is allergic to raw meat.

Are you sure he hasn't been given processed treats by someone else?

Are you sure he doesn't have fleas, or wasn't bitten by a tick?

What about 'spot on' flea treatments like Advantage or Frontline? When
I used these products, I could never give these treatments to my
Schipperkes, as each one would develop a scabby sore right in the
areas of where the treatment was applied.

Unless the beef is enhanced with seasonings, flavorings or injected
with a saline solution, I don't think it could be the cause.

I'd look at something else he's ingested or something environmental.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> My 4 year old Shiba Inu just started on the raw food diet 3 weeks ago.
> Lately I have been giving him beef this past week. But he's also
> developing a hot spot on his back.
<snip>
> Please help! Thank you.
>
> Chrystine Z.
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Crab bait?
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:58 pm ((PDT))

My grocery store always has frozen bags of "crab bait" for 69 cents a
pound. The price is right but I'm not sure it's something that would
be good to feed Zoe. I was able to identify some of the bags as being
full of turkey parts; others look like smoked meats.

So what the heck is "crab bait"? I know crabs are scavengers and eat
decaying stuff, so is this honest to goodness rotten meat, or just
stinky stuff my dog wouldn't mind (even if I might)?

Thanks,

Kristin

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Crab bait?
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:10 pm ((PDT))

I doubt your grocery store would be allowed to sell rotten meat in any way.
What it is most likely is necks, bits of trim and meats that are past their
sell by date but not rotten. You could feed it if you knew what it was.
Certainly you don't want her having lots of processed meats. But that's a
pretty high price for bait IMO. You can buy a whole chicken for less than
that per lb.
Karen

>
>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. {Raw Feeding} A RAW diet help control seizures?
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:00 pm ((PDT))

I have a friend that has a young sheltie under 4 years of age who has
seizures, started about I'm guessing 2 to 3 months ago, and of course
the vet has her on the seizure medicine can't pronounce it not even
going to try to spell it - I'm asking for just some general opinions -
and then I will get some information from her and relay it to you all.
I immediately told her that she needs to be on a RAW diet...what do
you all think?

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: {Raw Feeding} A RAW diet help control seizures?
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:12 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Cut vaccinations and raw feeding ten to help sezuires.

Kaitlin Fraser
Prince SJA therapy dog, CGN
Jester SJA therapy dog CGN
Wenlisa's Command Performance HIC, CKC majorPTd "Malo" A work of art in
progress.( Raw Fed, )
Sheep's Kin Unusually Unusaul Kiska- Another work of art in even more
progress.( Raw fed)

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

>From: "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [rawfeeding] {Raw Feeding} A RAW diet help control seizures?
>Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:02:26 -0600
>
>I have a friend that has a young sheltie under 4 years of age who has
>seizures, started about I'm guessing 2 to 3 months ago, and of course
>the vet has her on the seizure medicine can't pronounce it not even
>going to try to spell it - I'm asking for just some general opinions -
>and then I will get some information from her and relay it to you all.
> I immediately told her that she needs to be on a RAW diet...what do
>you all think?
>
>--
>Brandi
>Bartlesville, Ok
>www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

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Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:01 pm ((PDT))

When I hadn't gotten my cats eating bone after a couple of weeks and was
getting worried about it, I opened up one of my calcium capsules and tossed a
tiny pinch onto each cat's small chicken chunks.

When I saw the interesting hard white poop that happened after that, I
skipped the calcium....but the cats were agreeable to chicken necks when first
offered, so it was a non-issue.

Lynda

In a message dated 9/25/2007 9:40:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
"costrowski75" writes:

You can also use pulverized calcium supps. When I was having to force feed
my sick cat, I used calcium citrate w/o vitamin D. 900-1000mg per pound of
food.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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9b. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:31 pm ((PDT))

Bumble1994@... wrote:
I opened up one of my calcium capsules and tossed a
> tiny pinch onto each cat's small chicken chunks.
>
> When I saw the interesting hard white poop that happened after that,
I
> skipped the calcium....but the cats were agreeable to chicken necks
when first
> offered, so it was a non-issue.
*****
I don't know how much a "tiny pinch" is nor the size of your cats or
the size of their meals, so it's hard to draw any conclusions. My
guess is you gave too big a dose. I mixed a half pound of meat with
one and a half ground tablets and fed through the meat. My cat's stools
were uneventful.

No question that raw meaty bones are the best and easiest way to
provide the right amount of calcium. Certainly if there's a choice (or
a ray of hope), whole meaty bones beat all.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (19)
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10.1. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:03 pm ((PDT))

lol Chris, ain't that the truth! :-) Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@> wrote:
> >I was just joking about the
> > beginners/advanced lists, but I just meant that if we had that, we
> > wouldn't scare newbies away talking about feeding heads! :-)
> *****
> But you know what would, don't you--loose stools.
>
> Heck, a good raw diet has something scary for everyone!
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (36)
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11. new to RAW, but my English Mastiff is loving it
Posted by: "mastiffmom08012" mastiffmom08012@yahoo.com mastiffmom08012
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:07 pm ((PDT))

AND reaping all the benefits. Hello, I'm new to this group but I do
belong to an English Mastiff group. I'm very new to this RAW feeding
(only been at it for approx 1 month) but I have seen such an increase
in his activity level and cleaning up after him in the yard is much
easier.

Can you guys provide me with more education on RAW?? I want to become
more knowledgeable on this subject.

Thank you

Angela

ps, can I post pics here of my Mel?

Messages in this topic (1)
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12. Re: re vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "tantelin22@aol.com" tantelin22@aol.com tantelindar
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:07 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/25/2007 12:58:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com writes:

>>If you want to minimize the specter of sickness and unhealthy
organs, buy freerange organic liver<<

==============
That *is* a wild image...! :)

OTOH, I have to say, even though the liver is a filter, yes, the body has to
clean the filter or we'd all be dead. That still means that at any given
time there *are* a certain level of toxins in the liver, and there is almost
always a residue that remains, because no system is 100% efficient. That
means that eating the liver is eating those toxins.

The obvious solution is to eat *younger* livers from healthier animals.
Poultry are generally only weeks old when slaughtered; those are pretty clean
livers. Lamb and calf liver is cleaner than the much cheaper beef liver.
Organic and free-range sources are healthier than commercial/grocery store
sources.

Why is liver considered an absolute necessity? What does liver have that no
other part of the prey animal has?

<======================================== >
Blessed Be with An Honorable Peace!
Tante Lin

Maxine is my Hero! She says:
My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice.
Don't let aging get you down: it's too hard to get back up!
If you woke up breathing, congratulations!
You have another chance!
<===>

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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13a. Re: Success! ( Question of my own on poop
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:14 pm ((PDT))

"Kaitlin Fraser" <fraserk7@...> wrote:
>> But a question... Malo has green solid poop? And he had white poop
> yesturday? Any ideas? He checks out as healthy.
*****
Can't begin to know without more information. Details?
Chris O
(Please remember to trim your posts.)

Messages in this topic (17)
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13b. Re: Success! ( Question of my own on poop
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:36 pm ((PDT))

Sorry about trimming the posts.

He had Chicken yesturday... Lamb the day before... Today was Turkey and left
over chicken..... Umm... apprently someone gave him a milkbone.... but that
shouldn't give him green poop.... I wasn't runny.... it was solid...
green... lie light green poop... completely digested

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

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Messages in this topic (17)
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14a. Re: Fish body oil
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:22 pm ((PDT))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
> I give fish body oil on fishday as well (usually omega 3 rich
fish),then,too much omega 3 and cause over dose from fish body oil?
*****
Depends on how much FBO you give and how big the fish meal is.
However, unless you are dosing quite heavily (1000mg/10lb or higher
every day) I can't see a fish meal's Omega 3 levels as contributing to
an overdose.

You would most likely see "too much" Omega 3 producing loose stools.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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15.1. ADMIN/Re: I've had enough - quitting raw- swiffer
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:35 pm ((PDT))

Okay, enough with the Swiffer. Please take this discussion to RawChat.
Thank you.
Chris O
Moderation Team

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16a. Going to start!
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:36 pm ((PDT))

OK folks.
We bought chicken & will start the 4 & 5 month old Dane pups tomorrow
morning on RAW.
Just chicken to start (with bones)......
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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16b. Re: Going to start!
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:00 pm ((PDT))

Way to go Trina - you are on the right track! What about Casper?

Maggie, Rufus and Oliver--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith"
<coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> OK folks.
> We bought chicken & will start the 4 & 5 month old Dane pups tomorrow
> morning on RAW.
> Just chicken to start (with bones)......

Messages in this topic (2)
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17. feeding fish and smaller bones
Posted by: "michelle.pinkney" michelle.pinkney@yahoo.com michelle.pinkney
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi all

I am new to raw feeding and to this group - we have two beautiful
black labrador pups, now 15 weeks old. Of course we wanted to give
them the best food we could and so did lots of research. They love
their raw food! We have only been feeding raw for about 2 weeks. So
far we have fed whole chickens, cut into quarters, meaty pork spare
ribs, liver and beef bolar roast (special treat!!). The dogs are
loving their food and we have had no problems, except very runny
yellow poop to start with. I took the skin off the chicken and that
solved the problem.

So far I haven't fed fish. Fish is extremely expensive in New
Zealand so will probably have to send my husband out to catch some.
How often should I feed fish and how necessary is it?

Also I bought pork hock with small bits of bone in it and worried
that the pups might swallow the bone whole so cut it out. Is it
better to avoid those kind of cuts?

Reading your advice in this group has given me so much guidance!
Thanks

Michelle with Bing and Spencer (labrador pups)

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12074

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: brutus_buckley
1.2. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Brandi Bryant
1.3. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Sandee Lee
1.4. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Sonja
1.5. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Dawn Crosier
1.6. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Tina Berry
1.7. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: Sonja
1.8. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: T Smith

2.1. Re: Feeding Heads
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)
2.2. Re: Feeding Heads
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2.3. Re: Feeding Heads
From: Giselle

3a. Pet Tabs Plus/Vitamin A
From: brutus_buckley
3b. Re: Pet Tabs Plus/Vitamin A
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Pet Tabs Plus/Vitamin A
From: brutus_buckley
3d. Re: Pet Tabs Plus/Vitamin A
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: one_sojourner_one
4b. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: paulhrussell
5b. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Success! (was: Raw & Stools (poop))
From: susan holbeck
6b. Re: Success! (was: Raw & Stools (poop))
From: Sandee Lee
6c. Re: Success! ( Question of my own on poop
From: Kaitlin Fraser

7a. Re: Raw & Stools (poop)
From: Giselle
7b. Re: Raw & Stools (poop)
From: Renate

8. Fish body oil
From: Yasuko herron

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1.1. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:12 pm ((PDT))

Vickie,
It seems to me that what you have is a vet with raw-food blinders on.
That is, this vet is obviously opposed to raw and therefore blames
everything on the diet.

Nose bleeds are not a symptom of salmonella or e-coli poisoning.
Bacteria, in raw meat, or any other food, do not cause pancreatitis.
The symptoms you described sound NOTHING like pancreatitis or
bacterial poisoning. I am no vet, but I can use google:

http://www.vetcentric.com/reference/encycEntry.cfm?
ENTRY=23&COLLECTION=EncycIllness&MODE=full

I realize you are scared, and I sincerely hope it's not cancer this
time. However, if something is going on, it is not going to get
solved by blaming the diet and switching to kibble. So please, get a
second opinion. Don't tell the new vet that you feed/fed raw until
you get a proper diagnosis. Clearly something is wrong with your pup,
but it is NOT because of diet.

As for husbands, well, what can I say. Mine is OK with raw food as
long as he doesn't have to touch anything "squishy." Perhaps when you
get to the bottom of this problem and discover it is not diet-
related, he will change his mind or at least agree to have another go
at it. Please keep us posted.

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (37)
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1.2. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:13 pm ((PDT))

>>>He also added that this is all because we feed him raw
food, because of the bacteria in there, and that his nose bleeds,
infection, etc is because of the bacteria in raw food and we should
stop right away. So my hubby just plain refused to feed raw, and
prohibited me to do it. <<<<

I would consider getting a 2nd opinion with a vet that will support your
decision on feeding RAW! I have seen what it has done for my dogs and I
wouldn't turn back to kibble!!!

Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (37)
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1.3. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:25 pm ((PDT))

Vickie,

I am really sorry you are having all these problems with your pup (and
hubby), but again will reiterate that none of this is caused by diet.

A raw diet is not going to cause pancreatitis, kidney disease, upper
respiratory or any other kind of infections, nosebleeds, elevated blood cell
counts...or cancer! Your vet needs to figure out what the puppy's problem
is and deal with it. Diet has nothing to do with this. In fact, I like the
suggestion of visiting another vet and don't bring up food at all. If a vet
cannot look for a cause without blaming everything on a raw diet, they need
to be dumped!

Bacteria is everywhere..you are not going to avoid it by feeding kibble.
Look at all of the food recalls recently....kibble is far from safe! You
just can't do anything better than feeding him the food his body was
designed to eat. Feeding a sick dog sick food is not going to result in
health.

Get a different vet, find out what the problem is and treat it.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "vickies_28" <vickies_28@yahoo.com>
Anywhoooo
the doctor said, "I am very concered about the dog, he has elevated
white or red 9cannot remember cells, which is a sign of infection,
then he also has elevated phosfurus level and elevated something
else that make the doctor suspect pancreatitis." He said he was very
concerend. He also added that this is all because we feed him raw
food, because of the bacteria in there, and that his nose bleeds,
infection, etc is because of the bacteria in raw food and we should
stop right away. So my hubby just plain refused to feed raw, and
prohibited me to do it.

Messages in this topic (37)
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1.4. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:26 pm ((PDT))

Vickie,

My pup has had all sorts of issues on raw (mostly due to MY mistakes), but I still feed it because she has had far FEWER health issues on raw than she ever had when she was on kibble! I agree with everyone else....see what happens if you get a second opinion without bringing up the diet. Vets don't know enough about canine (or feline) nutrition to blame the diet. The diet becomes a scapegoat because the vets are just as programmed as the general public when it comes to the belief that dogs do best on kibble.

As for the bacteria load in raw food....I had a German Shepherd a few years back that would chow down on his and any other animal's feces. I know plenty of other dogs that do the same and have heard stories of even more raiding the litter box. No one worries out the bacterial load of THAT diet because dogs have been safely eating it for as long as dogs have been dogs. The only thing to worry about in this situation is parasitic worms.

When my husband questioned my decision to try raw, I simply told him "If dogs can eat poop, then Kodie can eat raw". He thought about it and said "Good point". There hasn't been an argument since.

I hope your pup has a speedy recovery!

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (37)
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1.5. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Dawn Crosier" dlcrosier@sbcglobal.net dlc110161
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

>> I simply told him "If dogs can eat poop, then Kodie can eat raw". He
thought about it and said "Good point". There hasn't been an argument since.

That's a good one! Do you mind if I use it? I have a reluctant husband as
well.

Dawn

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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8:02 AM

Messages in this topic (37)
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1.6. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

"A raw diet is not going to cause pancreatitis, kidney disease, upper
respiratory or any other kind of infections, nosebleeds, elevated blood cell
counts...or cancer!"

I thought I read on this list that blood levels are different for a raw fed
dog vs kibble fed and if the vet doesn't know the difference, find another
vet. Can someone confirm this?
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (37)
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1.7. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:18 pm ((PDT))

> That's a good one! Do you mind if I use it? I have a reluctant husband as
> well!

No need to ask to use it, after all, it's true, isn't it? :-)

I'd also like to make a correction to my previous post. Even though it's
painfully obvious, I guess I should've stated that worms aren't the only
thing to be concerned with in the habit of poop eating. Viruses and diseases
are of course also a concern. I've never had to worry about that with raw
meat from the market! Makes you wonder why vets don't ever blame a poop
eater's ailments on their less-than-pleasant habit.

Sonja

Messages in this topic (37)
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1.8. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

Giardia & coccidia are commonly transferred via poo poooooooo
Trina

> I'd also like to make a correction to my previous post. Even though it's
> painfully obvious, I guess I should've stated that worms aren't the only
> thing to be concerned with in the habit of poop eating. Viruses and
> diseases
> are of course also a concern. I've never had to worry about that with raw
> meat from the market! Makes you wonder why vets don't ever blame a poop
> eater's ailments on their less-than-pleasant habit.
>
> Sonja
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (37)
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________________________________________________________________________

2.1. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:19 pm ((PDT))

I would not feed a head, or a foot, to my Toy Poodle Molly. She looked
at me as if she needed crampons and climbing gear when she saw her first
whole game hen - no way is she going to straddle a deer head just to get
her dinner. She practically wears white gloves at mealtime she's such a
diva.

However, even if you don't feed strict prey model, you can still keep
your dog healthy and free from k**ble-induced illnesses (periodontal
disease, kidney disease, heart disease, etc.) by feeding fresh raw meat
on the bone. My six-pound dog eats fresh raw meat on and off the bone
regularly, and she is so healthy, robust and energetic, it's like she
needs an agent and her own luxury trailer.

Carolyn J. Garnaas and Molly Anne Malolly, Aspiring Film Actor

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Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________

2.2. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:05 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/25/2007 8:35:57 AM Pacific Standard Time,
brutus_buckley@yahoo.com writes:

Feeding heads are also great for freaking husbands out!!!

***lol, that's why i buy them.. actually a couple of my dogs get absolutely
giddy when they get a lamb head and it takes a few hours for my pit bull to
dismantle and eat all that he's going to. i love it when the food keeps the dogs
busy for hours..

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (34)
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2.3. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Trina!
We are a friendly bunch! 'Swhy so many of us offer advice
and support and stories about our experiences with our dogs. I
couldn't point to ANY post that has had, shall we say, a certain
fanatic fervor about it. We all have our own 'flavor' of raw feeding,
what works for us and our own dogs, we jostle along companionably
together when we disagree a bit, but the basics we generally agree on.

I don't remember if I posted my recommendation for starting raw
feeding for you, or if you've seen them in another topic. They're
pretty much what every long term raw feeder agrees is a good way to
begin. They also include The Lis List, a very creative compilation of
ways to source cheap &/or free meats. You might want to print it out
and highlight the relevant points.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374

I don't 'do' free range, grass fed or organic - simply can't afford
it, for myself or the dog. I'm limited in the wild game I can obtain.
I mostly shop for "frankenprey" animal parts 'n organs at grocery
stores, but do try to fit in some more exotic variety when I can.

I came to species appropriate whole prey model raw feeding by way of
kibble, many many brands of kibble - through home cooked, with grains
- home cooked without grains - to barfy style raw with veggies, etc. -
and finally by process of elimination, to whole prey model.
Did my dogs improve markedly on the home cooked vs kibble? Yes!
Did they improve even more on barfy style raw? Yes, indeed!
Did they improve even more once I ditched the unnecessary ground,
supps, herbals 'n plant matter? Oh, my Yes indeed!
Could I see even more health and well being if I could feed free
range, grass fed or organic? I think I would.
Do I beat myself up about not being able to - not on your life.
But, I never stop trying to figure out how to fit a better quality
diet into my life and budget.

I guess my point is; Do what you can, don't sweat it if you can't feed
your ideal of the optimum diet to your dogs, but never stop trying to
improve their diet nd add more variety.

Heads! heh heh I probably would feed 'em, if I could get 'em. Bea
would think she had gone to Newfy heaven if she got a head, I think.
But, its not for everyone. Not absolutely necessary to go all out to
feed them. And, if you are going to feed whole small prey, they'll
have the heads on, most likely. so NPs.

Usually, we spend a lot of time talking about poops, and vomit - so I
think a lot of people chimed in because it was a welcome change of
subject. ^_^
Not that I don't like a good poop or vomit discussion, you understand
.... ; )

Starting with chicken breast, boneless or not, can be fine. Boneless
meals are a big part of raw feeding. Its just that new-to-raw dogs
tend to need a higher than optimum percentage of bone to keep the
stools from being sloppy or loose - and setting a new-to-raw owner in
a panic. You might could get some cheap chicken leg quarters and feed
with the boneless breasts, to start.

Fat is fine to feed, its one of the major food groups for dogs, along
with meatymeat, organs and bone. But, new-to-raw dogs can get ugly
poops from high fat meals, right off the bat, especially if those
meals also are a bit light on meat. The suggestions are, at first, to
start with less fatty meats, and when you do introduce fattier meats,
only add a bit at a time to a well tolerated protein and build up the
dogs tolerance, just as its suggested you intro organs.

I'd suggest you read over The Lis List with your husband, highlight
what sources you're going to focus on; even if at first, its to check
out grocery store sale ads and figure out which stores mark down
ready-to-expire meat on what days. Then, GO TOGETHER! Its a great
adventure, you won't be disappointed that your husband doesn't bring
home what you want, and he won't be upset or aggravated because he's
looking for stuff he's not sure about. Getting meats for your dogs
isn't like shopping, its like a treasure hunt. Really. On this list,
there are several people who have bought more than one big freezer to
hold 'dog meat' 'cause they can't stop hunting! : )

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Because I have hunter friends, there may be some foods easier to get
than
> others.
<snip>
> I currently have a freezer of chicken breast boneless but I should be
> feeding bone in? & really thought the free range organic was best,
right?
> Wrong? Am I confused again?
<snip>
> What's wrong with the fat content?
> How much fat content is recommended? Not recommended? bad? good?
>
> My dogs will like what they get! hehe well, between 9 of them
eventually,
> SOMEONE will eat what's in the freezer....
>
> *shuddering at the idea of a cow head in my yard* ~ with my luck it
would
> MOO at me! *faint*
> OK, i have emailed 2 organic free range feeding chicken farms to see
what
> they have to offer to start with, if anything at all....
> Is the store brand really not a good idea?
<snip>
> Help! :-)
> Trina
> AGAIN

Messages in this topic (34)
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3a. Pet Tabs Plus/Vitamin A
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:25 pm ((PDT))

OK all, despite my 'no supplements just in case' policy, my husband
really really wants to give our dogs pet Tabs Plus. He is convinced
that it will 'cover' anything we miss with the diet. Quite honestly, I
wouldn't really mind, but I don't want to risk too much vitamin A. I
feed liver in small amounts and these vitamins have
1500 IU Vitamin A per tablet. Is this enough to cause vitamin A
toxicity? My plan was to allow him to feed this bottle out and then
simply not replace it. *sigh*
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Pet Tabs Plus/Vitamin A
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:45 pm ((PDT))

"brutus_buckley" <brutus_buckley@...> wrote:
>
> OK all, despite my 'no supplements just in case' policy, my husband
> really really wants to give our dogs pet Tabs Plus. He is convinced
> that it will 'cover' anything we miss with the diet.
*****
You might have him browse the USDA Nutrient Database to see just what
you're feeding when you feed an appropriate raw diet. What are your
dogs missing? Nothing. What does he THINK they're missing? That's
the question. My guess is he will not find an area that's lacking.

I > feed liver in small amounts and these vitamins have
> 1500 IU Vitamin A per tablet. Is this enough to cause vitamin A
> toxicity?
*****
I see no reason to add more A to a diet that gets plenty of naturally
occurring A from liver. If you are bound by marital vows to both
love AND obey, how about finding a dog vitamin that doesn't heavy up
the A?

IMO you're messing unnecesarily with Mother Nature by adding more
vits and mins than the diet intrinsically offers. I don't believe
the redundancy has value. The only supps I would consider if I were
suffering from loss of faith in rawfeeding would be C, E and a B
complex.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: Pet Tabs Plus/Vitamin A
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:25 pm ((PDT))

//What does he THINK they're missing?//

***good question, Chris. I suspect he doesn't really know!

//If you are bound by marital vows to both love AND obey, how about
finding a dog vitamin that doesn't heavy up the A?//

***OBEY was deliberately left out of our vows <G> I think this is an
excellent approach...I say a supplemental vitamin is fine, if he finds
one lower in vitamin A. Trust me, he won't want to go through the
trouble and it should be dropped at that point.

Thanks-

Renee W.

Messages in this topic (4)
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3d. Re: Pet Tabs Plus/Vitamin A
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:35 pm ((PDT))

AND...no added calcium, corn syrup, sorbitol, sucrose....LOL

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "brutus_buckley" <brutus_buckley@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "one_sojourner_one" onesojourner@gmail.com one_sojourner_one
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:27 pm ((PDT))

I am open to suggestions for getting calcium. He has had several eggs
but last time he puked it up so I have not given him another. By
enhanced turkey do you mean the natural flavor part? My grocery store
had 3 brands of ground turkey and they all said that. I did not pay
extra for the hearts, there was no other option.

-peter

Messages in this topic (17)
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4b. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:05 pm ((PDT))

"one_sojourner_one" <onesojourner@...> wrote:
>
> I am open to suggestions for getting calcium.
*****
You do not need calcium immediately but I hope ultimately you can rely
on fresh whole meaty bones. Hey, you never know.

Meanwhile, you can safely and easily use 1/2 teapsoon ground eggshells
per pound of meat. It doesn't depend on the dog's weight, it depends
on the amount of food. So if you feed half a pound of food a day, you
would add 1/4tsp of ground eggshell to that.

You can also use pulverized calcium supps. When I was having to force
feed my sick cat, I used calcium citrate w/o vitamin D. 900-1000mg per
pound of food.

Perhaps others can offer additional options.

By
> enhanced turkey do you mean the natural flavor part?
*****
Yeah, that. The stuff that comes in trays is usually enhanced. Zacky
Farms produces an unenhanced one pound chub; I'm sure they're not the
only source of unenhanced product.

I did not pay
> extra for the hearts, there was no other option.
*****
Right, there wouldn't be.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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5a. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "paulhrussell" paulhrussell@yahoo.com paulhrussell
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:27 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "paulhrussell" <paulhrussell@> wrote:
> >
> > Wondering if there's anything to her saying liver is the organ
> which
> > deals with all of the unhealthy things and sickness an animal has
> been
> > subjected to?
> *****
> Nothing replaces liver. Even if you bail out and use cod liver oil
> (not recommended!) you have to feed liver something.
>
> If you want to minimize the specter of sickness and unhealthy
> organs, buy freerange organic liver. OTOH, it might just be enough
> to know that a. liver is not a repository but rather a filter. (If
> liver just accumulated, ain't none of us would be alive today.), and
> b. storebought liver is healthy enough for human consumption and
> that should work for dogs. Remember, cooking may kill parasites but
> it doesn't do squat to toxins.
>
> Also consider that only 3%-5% of the diet should be liver. For a
> dog that eats a pound a day, that's less than one once a day.
>
>
> > I give mine lots of frozen beef liver mixed with various beef and
> > chicken from Whole Foods.
> *****
> You don't need to feed "lots" but you have enough wiggle room to
> feed it generously without being excessive. When you say "mixed",
> does that mean you are feeding prefab ground blends?
> Chris O
>

Thanks for the info.

I only shop Whole Foods with the intention of buying only free-range
healthy beef liver from the frozen meat (human) section.

By 'mixed' I mean I do some canned Instinct when short on time... and
regularly mix in human-grade beef and chicken from Whole Foods... Also
do some frozen broccoli and carrots for fiber...

My beloved 10 year old Golden Lab rescue was dx with HSA in her heart
2 months ago and have read how raw liver is one of the best things for
her condition.... so she and her younger sister (Springer chow mix
rescue) get copious amounts of it... about 25% of their diet.

think that's too much? haven't seen any bad signs of Vit A poisoning
or the like...

She's getting a whole host of homeopathic/holistic supplements too for
this supposed HSA.... could also be a blood clot or so they say from
looking at ultrasounds.

they get frozen chicken/turkey necks on a regular basis along with
beef raw bones....

Messages in this topic (17)
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5b. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:11 pm ((PDT))

"paulhrussell" <paulhrussell@...> wrote:
> My beloved 10 year old Golden Lab rescue was dx with HSA in her heart
> 2 months ago and have read how raw liver is one of the best things for
> her condition.... so she and her younger sister (Springer chow mix
> rescue) get copious amounts of it... about 25% of their diet.
>
> think that's too much? haven't seen any bad signs of Vit A poisoning
> or the like...
*****
I do yes. But if you believe it's helping with her hemangio, it's not
for me to say. Certainly "normally" that's excessive.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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6a. Re: Success! (was: Raw & Stools (poop))
Posted by: "susan holbeck" nu1edie@yahoo.com nu1edie
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:26 pm ((PDT))

Mine is a Newbie success story! At least so far.

I've been feeding raw about 5 weeks now and I am delighted! I've gotten quite a bit of flack along the way, but I blame ignorance for that! My 4 1/2 year old Rottweiler has NEVER looked better. He had a HUGE tarter problem before raw and I knew he would have to be put under for proper tooth cleaning. Guess what? His teeth look amazing! Not perfect yet, but in no way in need of a full ultrasonic cleaning. His shedding is less than half of what it was and his coat is smooth and shiny. I am a happy dog momma! He's still a lazy boy, but our new addition has brought a little more spark to his life.

Which brings me to our new addition! I picked up a stray pit mix to save her from the dog catcher. Well I fell in love with the little snot and she is great with Ozzie and my kids. She's getting spayed next week! She took to raw like a champ and over the past 2 weeks has gained weight and adapted like a pro. I lured her in the van with raw hamburger to begin with.

Anyway, Oz eats anything EXCEPT whole fish. He won't touch it (neither will the girl dog, Edna). Either way, I'll never turn back. Their poo is so much less, their breath is totally non offensive and they are happy, healthy dogs!

Susan, momma of Oswald (aka Ozzie, Oz) and Edna the girl dog!

---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

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Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Success! (was: Raw & Stools (poop))
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:40 pm ((PDT))

Great! We love success stories!

It's amazing how quickly those teeth clean up when fed appropriately. When
we adopted Austin at 6-years-old the first thing hubby commented was how
much he stunk. My first observation was his horrible teeth! Ughhh......the
stench disappeared almost immediately, the teeth took a little longer but
continued to improve over a few month's time. He is 8 now and my vet was
amazed on a recent visit that he has never had his teeth cleaned! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "susan holbeck" <nu1edie@yahoo.com>
>
> I've been feeding raw about 5 weeks now and I am delighted! I've gotten
quite a bit of flack along the way, but I blame ignorance for that! My 4
1/2 year old Rottweiler has NEVER looked better. He had a HUGE tarter
problem before raw and I knew he would have to be put under for proper tooth
cleaning. Guess what? His teeth look amazing! Not perfect yet, but in no
way in need of a full ultrasonic cleaning. His shedding is less than half
of what it was and his coat is smooth and shiny. I am a happy dog momma!

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: Success! ( Question of my own on poop
Posted by: "Kaitlin Fraser" fraserk7@hotmail.com fraserk7
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

Congrads on your good luck!

I get more compliments on my dogs beautiful teeth, coats that look like
crystal and good breath...( ya a dog with good breath)... to the point when
someone asks what I feed, I smile... tell them RAW... and then say" Don't
bash it... you just told me how amazing he was"....

Raws a wonder working, my older two none raw feds coats... used to look
great compared to other peoples dogs coats... and they get raw eggs. But
their breath, coat and teeth arn't half as nice.

I thakn raw every day for not needing to brush my raw feds dogs teeth and
scrap them.

Go RAW!

But a question... Malo has green solid poop? And he had white poop
yesturday? Any ideas? He checks out as healthy.

No dogs are vaccinated in my home.

" No one can walk into a room and bring as much joy, happyness and love as a
single dog can"

>From: susan holbeck <nu1edie@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Success! (was: Raw & Stools (poop))
>Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:53:41 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Mine is a Newbie success story! At least so far.
>
> I've been feeding raw about 5 weeks now and I am delighted! I've gotten
>quite a bit of flack along the way, but I blame ignorance for that! My 4
>1/2 year old Rottweiler has NEVER looked better. He had a HUGE tarter
>problem before raw and I knew he would have to be put under for proper
>tooth cleaning. Guess what? His teeth look amazing! Not perfect yet, but
>in no way in need of a full ultrasonic cleaning. His shedding is less than
>half of what it was and his coat is smooth and shiny. I am a happy dog
>momma! He's still a lazy boy, but our new addition has brought a little
>more spark to his life.
>
> Which brings me to our new addition! I picked up a stray pit mix to
>save her from the dog catcher. Well I fell in love with the little snot
>and she is great with Ozzie and my kids. She's getting spayed next week!
>She took to raw like a champ and over the past 2 weeks has gained weight
>and adapted like a pro. I lured her in the van with raw hamburger to begin
>with.
>
> Anyway, Oz eats anything EXCEPT whole fish. He won't touch it (neither
>will the girl dog, Edna). Either way, I'll never turn back. Their poo is
>so much less, their breath is totally non offensive and they are happy,
>healthy dogs!
>
> Susan, momma of Oswald (aka Ozzie, Oz) and Edna the girl dog!
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who
>knows.
>Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Raw & Stools (poop)
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Kristen!
Great to hear from you, anyway!
Glad Zoe is truckin' along. ^_^
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Indeed. You wouldn't have heard anything from me, because once she got
> the hang of eating real food, Zoe ate everything without any digestive
> issues.
>
> She finally did get the runs from too much lamb introduced at once,
> but by that time I had been reading enough and was confident enough
> that I could figure out the root of the problem and address it on my
own.
>
> So, I think not only do we not hear from newbies who do well, but we
> also don't hear from newbies who have fairly normal "problems" and
> already have enough information under their belt to not need lots of
> hand-holding.
>
> Kristin

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Raw & Stools (poop)
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

I'm totally new at this, but I've been looking for sources, here slaughter
houses are called abbatoirs. Great source. Another one is people that keep
laying hens, cause they basically dump them and start again every year and
the market for those chickens is not great. Also cull rabbits. I'm
planning on trying our local Freecycle list and the corresponding Cheapcylce
list.
Renate

On 9/25/07, T Smith <coldbeach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No, I've not started raw yet. I wanted to start the beginning of next
> month
> (about a week)n.
> I am on an island so it takes me 30+ minutes to get to the mainland to
> anywhere that might have a butcher market! I've been checking on line but
> to no avail to find a slaughter house or... whatever they call them now.
> I don't even know where to begin to find this kind of food bulk food. I am
> trying to find free range chicken to start. Being a vegetarian, if I am
> going to do this for my dogs, I need to not support the industry that
> (IMO)
> treats them cruel. I know dog food has chicken but we don't see it so it
> makes it 'easier'. I am sure they use caged chicken but the 'out of
> sight...out of mind' theory does wonders!
> I will seek out free range beef & talk to some hunter friends I know also
> as
> I get further *IF* I make it to get started! I am terrified of the
> diarrhea
> issues.
> I already give fish oil capsules, Vit E & Ester-C to a few of my dogs for
> specific needs. Several are medicated, too.
> Finding the free range might be the most difficult but if anyone is in my
> area (NW of Seattle) & knows of anywhere....Speak up!!
> Please, any preference of fish. I really do want specifics (types) to get
> started to make me feel more comfortable to get started. I will be putting
> a list on the fridge for everyone here to make sure we are all in check &
> on
> the same track. My mum has agreed to let her Dane pup go on this plan too!
> (I did get her to finally agree with us, Maggie. As long as it was her own
> decision *grin*).
> I will be purchasing a scale to weigh the food for their feedings to
> monitor
> it.
> Casper is 7 month old & already over 130 pounds. He eats 12 cups a day of
> k***le, Louie is 5 months, 100 pounds now & 9 cups of k***le... you get
> the
> idea? The special food for Casper & the 4 month old Dane girl "Whisper" is
> 37$ a bag.... That adds up. Just one tube of my Lhasa's eye meds is 55$ &
> he uses 4 eye medicines up to 9 times a day (at least 1/2 hour apart)...
> He
> has battled ear infections, skin infections, etc for the 11 years we've
> had
> him. As a pup he came home with severe ear issues & it progressed from
> there even with thousands of dollars in vet visits & medicines &
> specialists. His new vet has done wonders but.... I am in good hopes raw
> may assist him better? He is on the next 'wave' of raw feeders after I get
> the first 4 stable & find out if I can do it. 3 are terminal & I would
> like
> their final time with me as long and comfortable as possible.
>
> Thanks for the compliment about my fur kids. They are my everything. My
> house is really set up for their needs; doggie doors everywhere & the
> Lhasas
> have their own room! I applied to be a foster home again. I am the lucky
> one to have them in my life, really, I am truly blessed by these wonderful
> kids & I just want to do what is best for them. I need the free range
> animals though in order to help myself get through this easier as well.
> Any
> idea how to find these types of people to supply food for my fur kids?
> I look forward to ALL answers, help, advice, etc...
> Trina
> Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
> Casper (deaf Great Dane)
> Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
> Louie (hearing Great Dane)
> Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
> Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
> Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)
>
> On 9/24/07, Laurie Swanson <laurie@mckinneyphoto.com<laurie%40mckinneyphoto.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Wow, Trina, you have your hands full! That's wonderful you take care
> > of all those special needs' dogs.
> >
> > Take things slow, don't mix up lots of different proteins, don't do
> > organs right away, feed a bit higher bone content to start, feed meals
> > on the smaller side rather than larger.
> >
> > Have you started raw? If so, what are you feeding? Non-enhanced
> > chicken (read the fine print on the label and make sure no additives,
> > no injections of broth or other solutions, etc.) is usually a good
> > first meat.
> >
> > Laurie
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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8. Fish body oil
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:39 pm ((PDT))

Hi. Do you give fish body oil when you feed fish meal too? How often doyou give it to dog?

At this moment,I give fish body oil daily but was curious if I give fish body oil on fishday as well (usually omega 3 rich fish),then,too much omega 3 and cause over dose from fish body oil?

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12073

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Feeding Heads
From: marieandthefuzzybunch

2a. Re: Raw & Stools (poop)
From: girlndocs
2b. Re: Raw & Stools (poop)
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: Laura Atkinson
3b. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: tottime47
3c. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: costrowski75
3d. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: Laura Atkinson
3e. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: Letha Welch
3f. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: Sandee Lee
3g. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: T Smith
3h. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: costrowski75
3i. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
From: tottime47

4. Hot Spots Problem - Is it the Food?
From: czab_ca

5a. Re: Won't eat chicken
From: Andrea
5b. Re: Won't eat chicken
From: mgitaville

6a. Re: Newbie Intro-Ellizabeth
From: Elizabeth Dill

7a. Re: Aust. shep. new in nashville
From: cdhaik

8. Processing Deer?
From: Denise and David Spotila

9a. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: delcaste
9b. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: one_sojourner_one
9c. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: costrowski75

10a. what to feed a scared rescue?
From: pelirojita

11.1. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
From: vickies_28

12a. Re: re teeth and cardiac connection
From: Shannon Parker

13a. Re: Feeding once a day
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1.1. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "marieandthefuzzybunch" marie@hotlinkhr.com marieandthefuzzybunch
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:58 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> I am beginning to think raw might not be for me.
> I cannot feed heads like this. It's just NOT something I can do.
***********************************
I have to agree with the heads thing. I do not plan to feed heads to
my guys. I love feeding raw and they are thriving on it, but no heads,
no cute little wild squirrels and no growing bunnies to feed them. No
quarrel with those who do, but it is not for me. I venture to guess
that I can get enough variety still to meet their needs.

Marie

Messages in this topic (31)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Raw & Stools (poop)
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:59 am ((PDT))

Indeed. You wouldn't have heard anything from me, because once she got
the hang of eating real food, Zoe ate everything without any digestive
issues.

She finally did get the runs from too much lamb introduced at once,
but by that time I had been reading enough and was confident enough
that I could figure out the root of the problem and address it on my own.

So, I think not only do we not hear from newbies who do well, but we
also don't hear from newbies who have fairly normal "problems" and
already have enough information under their belt to not need lots of
hand-holding.

Kristin

> I would say that it probably seems like most newbie dogs get diarrhea,
> but in fact, i don't believe that is really true. I think since most
> people only post if they have trouble, it seems like most dogs have
> trouble. We usually don't read about the trouble free newbies.

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Raw & Stools (poop)
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:37 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "girlndocs" <girlndocs@...> wrote:
>
> Indeed. You wouldn't have heard anything from me, because once she got
> the hang of eating real food, Zoe ate everything without any digestive
> issues.
>
*****
Every so often we try to have a "Don't Nobody Bring Me No Bad News" Day
so that we can revel in the banal and humdrum of uneventful raw
feeding. Successes are ALWAYS welcome posts!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:03 am ((PDT))

That'll be 30 lashes with a semi-frozen spleen for not including the
required FDA (that's a Food & Drink Alert for those of you puzzled by
the acronym) on that post, Miss ChrisO. Or just hand over the key to
the meat locker.

On 9/25/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
> *****
> But yes! You should watch sometimes. There is capricious behavior
> although sometimes you may see a bit of sheepishness. And of course
> some livers are positively cowed by the larger ones: they're quite
> chicken actually and quail at the thought of going up against those
> that make pigs of themselves.
> Chris O
>
>
--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:29 am ((PDT))

Lol, very funny today!

I keep reading that dogs are really cousins to wolves..
Don't wolves prey on weak, sick and old animals in the wild?
Seems that might be the worst liver to eat and yet they do and
I ain't (woops, that's not a word) read anything about wolves dying
enmass from eating it........

Gosh I really hate when a Vet says something so dumb.....

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> Cathy Crosby <biblecat@> wrote:
> > Sorry....am I the only one who thought this was funny? I can just
> > picture these little livers out in the field, grazing and
frolicking
> in
> > their freedom!
> *****
> But yes! You should watch sometimes. There is capricious behavior
> although sometimes you may see a bit of sheepishness. And of
course
> some livers are positively cowed by the larger ones: they're quite
> chicken actually and quail at the thought of going up against those
> that make pigs of themselves.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:42 am ((PDT))

"Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...> wrote:
>Or just hand over the key to
> the meat locker.
*****
Would that be "put DOWN the key and step AWAY from the locker"?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:54 am ((PDT))

Depends on how much trouble you think you're in. Hand it over
peacefully and no one gets hurt. We can do this the easy way or the
hard way.

On 9/25/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
> "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...> wrote:
> >Or just hand over the key to
> > the meat locker.
> *****
> Would that be "put DOWN the key and step AWAY from the locker"?
> Chris O
>
--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

3e. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "Letha Welch" family@fantasycrafts.com dragonxser
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:42 am ((PDT))

Thank you!!!

As in any 'class' it is so necessary for the instructor to throw in some humor to get my
brain back on track. Back to where I can assimilate the mass of information. This... was too
funny! Thank you both!

< ;^ ) ... Going back to reading in the deep dark depths of a lurking puppy owner feeding
that protested frozen pre-mix stuff 'cause it is more convenient for my 10 and 13 yr old
kidlets to use ~ and 'cause I don't know yet how to obtain or balance out all the needs for
my 5 mo. old pooch.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> Cathy Crosby <biblecat@> wrote:
> > Sorry....am I the only one who thought this was funny? I can just
> > picture these little livers out in the field, grazing and frolicking
> in
> > their freedom!
> *****
> But yes! You should watch sometimes. There is capricious behavior
> although sometimes you may see a bit of sheepishness. And of course
> some livers are positively cowed by the larger ones: they're quite
> chicken actually and quail at the thought of going up against those
> that make pigs of themselves.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

3f. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:08 pm ((PDT))

Paul,

We hear this kind of nonsense frequently! The liver is a filter, sending
impurities out of the system. If it were a storage receptacle, none of us
would be alive! :)) No need to avoid it...and that goes for humans as well
as our pets.

Other organs are not a substitution. Liver is necessary...but only as
around 5% of the diet.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "paulhrussell" <paulhrussell@yahoo.com>

Wondering if there's anything to her saying liver is the organ which
deals with all of the unhealthy things and sickness an animal has been
subjected to?

She said don't feed liver, other raw organ meats are a safer bet if
doing a raw diet.

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

3g. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:31 pm ((PDT))

Oh for Pete's sake... from head gnawing dogs to livers free ranging in the
fields...
OK, this raw diet ....I want to breed those free range livers (they can't
eat THAT much) and they don't have heads!
I can just toss 'em to the dogs...I could even hunt them (for the lady who
trees squirrels) we could develop a liverhound ;-)
Alright, seriously, one ounce of liver per 10 pounds of chicken meal
daily....
Can I give that as 7 ounces in a week at one feeding or best to do it one
ounce daily?
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

On 9/25/07, Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> We hear this kind of nonsense frequently! The liver is a filter, sending
> impurities out of the system. If it were a storage receptacle, none of us
> would be alive! :)) No need to avoid it...and that goes for humans as well
> as our pets.
>
> Other organs are not a substitution. Liver is necessary...but only as
> around 5% of the diet.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

3h. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:54 pm ((PDT))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Oh for Pete's sake... from head gnawing dogs to livers free ranging
in the
> fields...
*****
We aim to please.

> Alright, seriously, one ounce of liver per 10 pounds of chicken meal
> daily....
*****
Per dog? How big a dog are you feeding that it would get 10 pounds a
day? How about one ounce of liver (or even less) per ONE pound of
chicken? Ten pounds of chicken might justify a pound of liver, but a
scant one at that.

> Can I give that as 7 ounces in a week at one feeding or best to do
it one
> ounce daily?
*****
Ultimately it depends on the dog but certainly at the beginning a
teensy small amount of liver is not as likely to create digestive
disorder. In fact, there's really no reason to feed liver right from
the get-go; give yourself and your dogs time to get used to things.

You might be able to feed as much as seven ounces in one meal later
on but you should ease into it. A full seven ounces out of nowhere
will almost certainly create havoc. My retrievers have been fed raw
for over seven years now and while they are comfortable with four or
five ounces of liver a couple of times a month, I don't feed them big
heaps of the stuff. Heart yes, liver no.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

3i. Re: vet said not to feed raw liver
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:11 pm ((PDT))

Hi Trina,

We are a group, lol.

When starting out wait a few weeks to add in the liver....

Then I would start with an oz a day and see how it goes,
maybe eventually you can feed all 7oz at once, but not at
first as liver is very rich and can give the old cannon butt
if fed too much, too soon.......

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:

> Can I give that as 7 ounces in a week at one feeding or best to do it
one
> ounce daily?

Messages in this topic (15)
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4. Hot Spots Problem - Is it the Food?
Posted by: "czab_ca" czab_ca@yahoo.com czab_ca
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:29 am ((PDT))

Hello everyone,

My 4 year old Shiba Inu just started on the raw food diet 3 weeks ago.
Lately I have been giving him beef this past week. But he's also
developing a hot spot on his back. Ever since he was little he's had
skin problems, such as dandruff and mild cases of hot spots.
Is he allergic to beef? I've been using fish oil supplements in his
food as well, and sometimes I give him canned fish (albacore) if I run
out of fresh raw food.
Should I switch him back to chicken instead? I hate seeing my dog
suffer and have to wear his elizabethean collar all day and night. :(
I've cleaned the hot spot with green tea and put a mild anti-itch
cream on it. It's been about a week he's had his hot spot.
Please help! Thank you.

Chrystine Z.

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: Won't eat chicken
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:29 am ((PDT))

Hi, Carmela, you know after something as wonderfully odiferous as goat I'm not surprised
your hound is less than excited by chicken. Sometimes Geiger gets in a mood and decides he
doesn't want what mom is offering. In that case, the food goes down for about twenty
minutes and if he doesn't touch it I put it away for the next day. Same food comes back until
he eats it. Luckily, he gives in by day three at most and I've never had to see just how long it
takes before I can't stand the smell anymore. Exercise is a great thing for a dog who is trying
to be picky, it will make him even hungrier. It could be he just isn't a big fan of chicken, or
he might not like the texture compared to the goat. You could try throwing it in the freezer
for a short time just to firm it up. Good luck.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "melabelle227" <carmelai@...> wrote:
>
> Now this dog is not a picky
> eater, but he won't eat the chicken (though he had no problem eating
> the frozen ground raw chicken). He licks it, nibbles it a tiny bit,
> and then leaves it.

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Won't eat chicken
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:31 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "melabelle227" <carmelai@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, I've been feeding my 56lb Plott a frozen raw diet for about a
> month and have just made the switch to "do-it-myself" raw last week
> (hurrah!). So far so good... I started with goat chunks with bone
> (because I got some at a great price) and he LOVED it.

******I am jealous as I often wish I could find goat for a decent
price. Just be cautious of "chunks" that you are feeding - if the
dog can swallow it hole without chewing the chunks may be too small
in particular for a newbie raw eater.

The goat ran
> out, and I had chicken quarters next. Now this dog is not a picky
> eater, but he won't eat the chicken (though he had no problem eating
> the frozen ground raw chicken). He licks it, nibbles it a tiny bit,
> and then leaves it.

***** After goat he likely thinks chicken is pretty boring. There
are definitely some days I get "a look" from my dog if chicken comes
out for the 2nd day in a row, but that is just the way it is. Is the
chicken frozen, thawed, room temp? Some dogs like it more room temp
wheras some like it straight from the fridge - might try switching
that up.

I'm fine with not feeding him anything else til
> he eats the chicken- I know I need to stick it out and eventually
> he'll eat-

*****Good for you!!! You are right, he will eventually eat it.

but I have some questions: (1) how long should I leave the
> chicken out for him to eat, before I put it away if he doesn't eat
it?

*****Generally my rule of thumb is about 20 minutes after no
sniffing, licking, or any other interest in it.

> (2) if this goes on for a few days, is it ok to keep putting out the
> same chicken day after day?

*****Yes, should not be a problem.

(3) is it ok for my dog to get his usual
> amount of exercise (which is a 4 or 5 mile run daily) if he isn't
eating?

******So, I admit I have bullmastiffs and their activity level is not
the same as your dogs so others may have different responses,
however, I say yes. Dogs are not like humans and go into starvation
mode much less quickly than us. I in fact think that a good amount
of excercise is only going to encourage him to actually try the
chicken. I generally will go 3 full days with something the dog is
resisting - if it comes out on the 4th and he will still not eat it
that may be when I choose to surrender. I can say though that only
fish has ever gotten us to day 4.

> Thanks everyone. I've learned a lot from the group!
> Carmela
> and Milo the Plott
>
*****No problem....I think by day 3 you will see him cave and realize
chicken isn't such a bad thing. He likely was simply holding out for
the goat again.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Newbie Intro-Ellizabeth
Posted by: "Elizabeth Dill" dill_elizabeth@yahoo.com dill_elizabeth
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:34 am ((PDT))

Hey Dawn!

Thanks so much for the welcome. I admire rescuers sooo much, if I were close by, I could donate a few hours a week to help out :>) Yes, definitely, I've learned (and am learning) tons! School starts back for me next Monday, so all I'm doing this week is reading posts and studying raw diets and animal nutrition. Way different than what what we study at school, huh? No, I haven't switched to raw yet, but Gisselle (sp??)'s postings are totally helpful because she has a great way of explaining things (like why some of the posts seems to be kind of scary i.e., all the loose stools and feeding heads and such).

I currently use Solid Gold and wet and dry, (typical). I tried feeling my girl a "real" bone when she was younger and it splintered and she got pretty sick and threw it all up, So that's when I started giving her rawhides, which she adores to this day. I'm kind of leary of switching her at 14 years. My chow is much more likely to make the transition if I'm up for it (I'm a vegetarian so that's another big mental road block for me).

Well, I've babbled enough, I'm thrilled to be here, great to hear about your success with teeth too. I'm 100% certain bones (and rawhides for me) are the key to healthy mouths! Thanks again ;>)

Elizabeth .

Dawn Ruhl <Dawnofthedanes@mac.com> wrote:
Welcome Elizabeth,
I used to be a Vet Tech... many moons ago. <G>
There is a lot to glean from this list. Your pets will
thank you when you make the switch! If you haven't
already.

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7a. Re: Aust. shep. new in nashville
Posted by: "cdhaik" cdhaik@yahoo.com cdhaik
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:44 am ((PDT))

Hi Stephanie and welcome. I am always excited about other Aussie
owners feeding raw. I have two. Amber a black tri, 2 and a half and
Rain a blue merle now only six months old. Amber has been raw fed
nine months now and Rain since we got him at 9 weeks old. Amber i
had no probs with she is a lover of raw Rain was a bit tricky as he
only knew kibble from his breeder. We stayed in Lake Tahoe for two
weeks after getting him before flying back home. We had a shortage
of freezer space there but would just swing by the grocers every
second or third day and buy his meals to refrigerate.

I started him off on chicken quarters and he took a long while to
get the jaw strong enough to crunch through the thighs and drums but
the rest he managed well. He would drag that damn piece of chook all
over the place. I never bothered rinsing just wacking in the fridge
and offering an hour or two later again. Even now he has a favourite
flower bed he drags his meal too and it gets quite a bit of sand and
stuff on it but that is his choice od seasoning. He is now attacking
pork picnic roasts and crunching through bones with great gusto. I
also added small amounts of different meats and organs over a long
period of time for a slow intraoduction of variety. Check out the
archives there is plenty of excellent info there. Hang in there I
guarantee you will not be sorry. The benefits are excellent for raw
feeding.

Caren y Amber y Rain y Angus

Messages in this topic (5)
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8. Processing Deer?
Posted by: "Denise and David Spotila" brookside_casa@yahoo.com brookside_casa
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:45 am ((PDT))

We have several people who will be hunting for us ( the Poodles) this season. Can we use the stomach i.e. tripe? I am thinking of having all organs and tripe course ground? We will discard all weight barring bones but how do I instruct the butcher to cut the rest with as little waste as possible?

David and Denise Spotila

Brookside Casa
Standard Poodles
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
E Roosevelt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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9a. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:41 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "one_sojourner_one"
<onesojourner@...> wrote:
I can't starve this growing guy until he eats so, I can't just let him
skip meals until he gets hungry enough to eat this stuff. He is a picky
eater and I am quickly running out of options.

> -peter

I have had to feed one of my dogs by hand. Still am. He is so picky I
call him Ferdinand the Bull. Remember Ferdinand smelling the flowers?
Well Senator takes a bite and looks around and enjoys his yard then
takes another bite and looks around.....I just switched him to raw
(he's @ 13?) and he's not used to some of the stuff I feed him like
heart, tongue, liver. I cut it up and hand feed until he's able to
figure out that this is dinner. I don't give him any treats, etc., just
his dinner. If he doesn't eat it at once from me, I put it up and try
again later. No way will I go back to kibble, in two short weeks he's
looking great. Good luck with your pup.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (15)
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9b. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "one_sojourner_one" onesojourner@gmail.com one_sojourner_one
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:34 pm ((PDT))

Well I decided to give ground turkey a try (actually all I can find is
ground turkey with natural flavoring). So far it is a big hit. I also
bought some hormone and antibiotic free chicken hearts and gizzards to
try to mix in. I have been mixing in a little canidea lamb and rice
since this meat can not be getting him everything he needs. I am not
sure what I will start mixing in next.

-peter

Messages in this topic (15)
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9c. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:09 pm ((PDT))

"one_sojourner_one" <onesojourner@...> wrote:
>
> Well I decided to give ground turkey a try (actually all I can find
is
> ground turkey with natural flavoring). So far it is a big hit. I
also
> bought some hormone and antibiotic free chicken hearts and gizzards
to
> try to mix in. I have been mixing in a little canidea lamb and rice
> since this meat can not be getting him everything he needs. I am not
> sure what I will start mixing in next.
*****
The meat is in fact adequate for a while. The notion of daily
balance comes from the laboratory, not nature. You can feed real
food all upside down for several weeks without damaging your puppy.

However, a lavish offering of variety may well cause digestive
upset. I recommend you find an unenhanced turkey product to add
those hearts and livers to; FYI everything chicken in the USofA must
by law be hormone and antibiotics free. So if you paid dearly for
your giblets, look further next time for a better price.

Adding Canidae is not necessary. Rice is never necessary. You have
time to feed a limited raw diet; over a longer stretch you will have
to get calcium into the pup but there are simpler and more natural
ways than Canidae to do that.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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10a. what to feed a scared rescue?
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:44 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Dawn Ruhl <Dawnofthedanes@...> wrote:
>
> Normally, with rescues that aren't emaciated... I don't feed them
> right away.
> Just like with boarding dogs... the first night they get fresh water
> and not much else.
> Due to the trauma, even with dogs that have been here before... they
> know their
> family left them, they love coming here, but I know it is traumatic
> the first day...
> so, I basically fast them. They get a lot of love and attention, and
> by the AM they
> are ready to chow down.

Hi Dawn,

Thanks so much for the feedback. This helps me feel better about not
stressing over his food too much right now. We just got back from the
vet and he says part of the complete lack of energy is the little guy
is feeling pretty awful due to the upper respiratory infection. He
has no temp, and the vet could not induce a cough so he thinks it's
early and in a week or so he'll perk up, assuming he responds to the
antibiotics.

I used the parmesan cheese to get the antibiotic in to him and he
actually raised himself up to eat some of it. I then sprinkled it
liberally on some ground turkey and he ate probably about 2
tablespoons full.

I think I am going to try RawChat for some homeopathic recommendations
to support this little guy in his trauma, and through the antibiotics.

Thanks,
Kerry

Messages in this topic (4)
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11.1. Re: I've had enough - quitting raw
Posted by: "vickies_28" vickies_28@yahoo.com vickies_28
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

Hello All
Thanks for your feedback here. I got an update for you. When we went
to the doctor's, he did some blood work. So now he called back and
my husband was the one who talked to him. Anywhoooo
the doctor said, "I am very concered about the dog, he has elevated
white or red 9cannot remember cells, which is a sign of infection,
then he also has elevated phosfurus level and elevated something
else that make the doctor suspect pancreatitis." He said he was very
concerend. He also added that this is all because we feed him raw
food, because of the bacteria in there, and that his nose bleeds,
infection, etc is because of the bacteria in raw food and we should
stop right away. So my hubby just plain refused to feed raw, and
prohibited me to do it.
To give you some background on the puppy. He was coughing a week
ago, like really bad and we thought it was kennel cough. The doc
said NO, he said it is upper respiratory infection or most probably
just reaction of his trahea to the leash pressure, but noneless
prescribed anitibiotics. which we didn't give, because I dojn't want
to overmedicate him and he stopped coughing after we changed the
leash.
Then a week later the puppy started sneezing, had bloody discharge
from his nose and was feeling under the weather. We took him to the
doc's, he said he had a fever 103, and had an infection, because we
didn't give him the antibiotics as we were told to do. So - upper
respiratory infection. Fine. we started the antibiotics yesterday.
And now he called with the blood work, also lectured us about raw
while we were there.
What does it have to do with cancer - we had a puppy that had the
same symptoms, eye swelling, nose bleeds, etc. etc. etc. And it
turned out as cancer. We were given 1000000 antibiotics and non of
them helped becuase it was cancer.
Sorry, oit's a bit too long, but need to vent and no one in sight to
talk to about it.
any feedback will be much appreciated.
By the way, advice such as "have your husband read a book, article,
web site" about bad commercial food, and good raw food, doesn't do
anything for me. HE JUST DOESN"T LISTEN. I guess this is more of a
marriage counceling case, eh?

Vickie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Vickie" <dals4creekside@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@> wrote:
> >
> > Vickie,
> >
> > Not only does a raw diet not cause cancer, it is the first thing
> recommended
> > if/when a dog does have cancer.
> > Cancer feeds on carbohydrates....a cancer sparing diet includes
good
> quality
> > protein, good fat, no carbs. Raw!
> >
>
>
> Sandee, YES thats exactly right. When one of mine got cancer, She
got
> totally raw, no carbs. Cancer FEEDS on carbs.
>
> the other Vickie
>

Messages in this topic (29)
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12a. Re: re teeth and cardiac connection
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

Just to give a little more info....This bacteria targets the heart because there often are leaky valves, holes, etc in the heart (called a heart murmer) where the bacteria can lodge, grow and cause problems. I myself had a big hole in my heart and had to go on antibiotics for a few years after I had it repaired.

Shannon

tantelin22@aol.com wrote:
Toxic bacteria grow on the teeth and cause gingivitus. They can infect the
bloodstream from there, and for some reason usually target the heart. Human
dentists routinely prescribe 3 days of prophylactic antibiotics before doing
root canal and abscess removal work on humans for the same reason.

---------------------------------
Make free worldwide PC-to-PC calls. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger

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Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: Feeding once a day
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:42 pm ((PDT))

This is another discussion we have had frequently on this list. There is
no evidence one way or another that feeding multiple small meals lessens the
chance of bloat or that large meals increase the chance of bloat. The
studies have all been inconclusive and obviously not done on rawfed dogs.

Here are just a few of the many posts available in the archives.....

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/133316
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/108358
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/64399

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Felicia Kost" <saphiradane@yahoo.com>
>
> Hello, I have danes and know several other people with danes that rawfeed.
We all feed twice daily to help prevent bloat/torsion. Although; with raw it
is much less of a concern vs. kibble fed danes. I personally fell the causes
of bloat are complex and may not been entirely nutrional related however I
still try to prevent it. I don't see any harm done feeding twice daily vs.
once daily other that convience. Do what works for you and your dogs. Just
my opinion. Felicia

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