Feed Pets Raw Food

Monday, October 1, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12104

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Feeding Amounts
From: krystal_brr
1b. Re: Feeding Amounts
From: Loraine Jesse
1c. Re: Feeding Amounts
From: Laura Atkinson
1d. Re: Feeding Amounts
From: costrowski75
1e. Re: Feeding Amounts
From: carnesbill
1f. Re: Feeding Amounts
From: Loraine Jesse

2a. Re: How much raw egg?
From: Tina Berry
2b. Re: How much raw egg?
From: costrowski75

3a. help on feeding fish
From: sfed57
3b. Re: help on feeding fish
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Tina Berry
4b. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Laura Atkinson
4c. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: sfed57
4d. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Gail Edmond
4e. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: costrowski75
4f. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: Shedding on raw
From: Tina Berry

6a. Re: Are pork ribs tips safe?
From: Carol Garnaat

7a. Re: runns in house & gagging
From: Carol Garnaat
7b. Re: runns in house & gagging
From: Shannon Hully

8a. Diseases in deer/rabbit meat?
From: trayc2244
8b. Re: Diseases in deer/rabbit meat?
From: carnesbill

9a. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
From: delcaste

10a. Re: FREECYCLE (was: Cheap meat)
From: Shannon Hully

11a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
From: Maiakitas@aol.com


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Feeding Amounts
Posted by: "krystal_brr" rkbarr@hughes.net krystal_brr
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 3:41 pm ((PDT))

Hi! My name is Krystal and I have been reading all the posts for a
couple of weeks now. I appreciate all the info and encouragement. I
have 2 Rhodesian Ridgebacks. My male, Titus is 17 months and weighs
just under 90lbs, and my female, Mino is going to be 2 in two weeks and
weighs 65lbs. I show Titus in confirmation and then both do obedience
and agility(well, when Mino feels like it she joins us) and lure
coursing.

I have read multiple times about the 2-3% of their weight for amounts
and the 80%meat, 10%bone, 10%organ, but I am a "put tab A in slot B"
kind of person so I was wondering if someone with approx the same size
dogs could tell me what their weekly meals look like? It just seems
like a lot of bone to give Titus half a chicken, or do you give the
chicken with chunks of other meat? I am just struggling to
conceptualize what 10% bone looks like?

Also, if we are going to be doing coursing and they are burning alot of
calories, is their a rule for how much to increase their protein
intake? Or is that another one of those things I'll have to figure out
as I go along?

Thanks again for the help,
Krystal
ridgebacks are like potato chips, you can't have just one!


Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Feeding Amounts
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 4:48 pm ((PDT))


Hi Krystal,
I had to smile when I read your post about too much bone. Here I am worried that 80 % meat and 10 % bone is not going to be enough calcuim for a growing, large breed puppy. Keep in mind when I started off feeding raw with Billinghurst, he was the raw God, so it can get very confusing. What helped me past this was thinking of a whole rabbit, the funny thing is I have never fed my dog's rabbit. I too would like to hear sample menues, say for a week, that you would feed a pup. Sometimes it is all so simple and easy that I think I must be missing something <grin>.
I really appreciate the patience and guidence of people in this group.
Loraine Jesse
rothburg@xplornet.com
www.rothburgrottweilers.com


To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: rkbarr@hughes.netDate: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 22:15:57 +0000Subject: [rawfeeding] Feeding Amounts


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Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Feeding Amounts
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 4:50 pm ((PDT))

Here's an example of what Robin gets over the course of a few days:

Breakfast - a hunk of whatever meat is in the fridge drawer (usually left
overs from dogs' dinner the night before)
Dinner - a hunk of whatever is being served + organs

The hunks include: beef heart, pork heart, chicken quarters, fish, tripe,
turkey thighs, turkey necks, etc. She gets edible bone at least 2 days a
week (just works out that way).


On 10/1/07, Loraine Jesse <rothburg@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Krystal,
> I had to smile when I read your post about too much bone. Here I am
> worried that 80 % meat and 10 % bone is not going to be enough calcuim for a
> growing, large breed puppy. Keep in mind when I started off feeding raw with
> Billinghurst, he was the raw God, so it can get very confusing. What helped
> me past this was thinking of a whole rabbit, the funny thing is I have never
> fed my dog's rabbit. I too would like to hear sample menues, say for a week,
> that you would feed a pup. Sometimes it is all so simple and easy that I
> think I must be missing something <grin>.
> I really appreciate the patience and guidence of people in this group.
> Loraine Jesse
> rothburg@xplornet.com
> www.rothburgrottweilers.com
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Feeding Amounts
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 5:34 pm ((PDT))

Loraine Jesse <rothburg@...> wrote:
I too would like to hear sample menues, say for a week, that you
would feed a pup. Sometimes it is all so simple and easy that I think
I must be missing something <grin>.
*****
I think that's part of why the books make it so hard. WHO would pay
good money for a book whose entire message is "Get a chicken. Feed
it."?

In order for the book to sell, the author has to be credentialed and
the concept has to have enough, ahem, meat on it to make the
expenditure worth it. If there's no "unique selling proposition",
there's no hook, there's nothing new, there's no reason to buy the
book. Think of the humbug wizard in the Wizard of Oz: at the end, he
was able to identify in the characters the attributes they'd spent
most of the movie looking for. A good species appropriate raw diet
removes the humbug from the feeding plan.

My BC had her year birthday yesterday. I fed her three times a day
til she was four months, then two times until she was 10 months, then
once a day. When she somewhat older she'll go to Big Food several
times a week. When she was quite young she ate a pound a day, now
she's good and holding steady at less than that, settling at 31-32
pounds.

She eats chicken quarters, half game hen, rabbit; hunks of beef,
lamb, pork, venison, goat, turkey, salmon, cod, whiting, pollock; and
although she does little serious damage to the bone, she also works
on pork shoulders, lamb shanks, lamb shoulders and lamb brisket.

About half her meals include bone: three or four a week. She also
gets one SO cap a day, cow feet to mess with, some table scraps and
whatever the cat doesn't eat.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Feeding Amounts
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 8:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "krystal_brr" <rkbarr@...> wrote:
>
> I have read multiple times about the 2-3% of their weight
> for amounts
> and the 80%meat, 10%bone, 10%organ, but I am a "put tab A in
> slot B"
> kind of person so I was wondering if someone with approx the
> same size
> dogs could tell me what their weekly meals look like?

Hey Krystal,
I think you are going to have to readjust your thought patterns when
it comes to raw feeding. Raw feeding dogs is much more free flowing
and fluid with almost no hard and fast rules. You don't find any
two people on earth who feed their dogs exactly the same way. Like
the rest of us you will have to develop your own procedures and
methods.

First thing, forget the 2% to 3% thing. Your dogs are much more
active than the average dog. They will probably need more food.
You judge by their build. If they start looking thin, feed more ...
if they start looking fat, feed less. It's that simple.

> It just seems
> like a lot of bone to give Titus half a chicken, or do you
> give the
> chicken with chunks of other meat? I am just struggling to
> conceptualize what 10% bone looks like?

Forget 10% bone. You will overstress yourself trying to feed that.
Don't worry about any percentages or ratios. If you feed a vareity
of animal parts from a variety of animals you will automatically get
the correct balance over time. This meal might be too boney ...
next meal may have no bone at all. There is nothing magic about 10%
bone. Its an arbitrary number someone came up with and others
grabbed hold of. You will notice no difference in your dogs if you
feed them 25% bone. My dog's diets are probably much closer to 25%
bone than 10% ... probably over 25%. I don't even try to guess.
They are healthy so I don't care.

> Also, if we are going to be doing coursing and they are
> burning alot of
> calories, is their a rule for how much to increase their protein
> intake? Or is that another one of those things I'll have
> to figure out
> as I go along?

The rule says "yes, you will probably have to feed more." And yes
its something you will have to figure out yourself. No two dogs are
alike. No one can tell you a magic number. There is no magic
number. I wouldn't worry about feeding them just more protein.
Just feed them more period. Whatever it takes to maintain a good
body build and weight. It will probably vary over time.

It's not nearly as difficult as feeding children. Dogs neat meat,
bones, and organs. Mostly meat, some bone and some organs. Exact
amounts aren't critical. Feed meat, bones, and organs from a
variety of animals.

Get the book "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale. You may download the
book for $9.95 from http://www.ebookmall.com/ebooks-authors/tom-
lonsdale-ebooks.htm or order hard copy either at

http://www.dogwise.com or at http://www.amazon.com (cheaper).

A few informative web sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Re: Feeding Amounts
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 9:05 pm ((PDT))


Thank-you Chris.
Lorainewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: How much raw egg?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 3:41 pm ((PDT))

"What size dog do you give a whole egg daily?"

85-95 lbs.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: How much raw egg?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 5:06 pm ((PDT))

"Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> > Are there any other considerations for feeding raw eggs?
>
> IMO, just bowel tolerance.
*****
I'm with you, Andrea. Sometimes there might be gas, maybe. It is
really only about bowel tolerance. The mythologies behind whites and
eggs alone versus together and artificial limits on quantity are just
that: myths and artifice. Eggs is good.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. help on feeding fish
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 3:41 pm ((PDT))

I am planning to feed my dogs some raw fish caught in the area where I
live which will mainly be lake trout and rainbow trout. I have read a
few things about tape worm in raw fish, how do I avoid this problem?
Does freezing it first get rid of the tape worm? I am in North Western
British Columbia if that helps...

Shawna

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: help on feeding fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 5:13 pm ((PDT))

"sfed57" <sfed57@...> wrote:
>
> I am planning to feed my dogs some raw fish caught in the area where
I
> live which will mainly be lake trout and rainbow trout. I have read
a
> few things about tape worm in raw fish, how do I avoid this problem?
> Does freezing it first get rid of the tape worm? I am in North
Western
> British Columbia if that helps...
*****
Salmonids (which includes salmon, steelhead and trout) from the Pacific
Northwest may harbor the rickettsia parasite which can be fatal to
canines (not humans, not cats). Freezing these fish for a week after
they've frozen solid will kill the parasite.

If you are concerned, don't feed them raw. And don't feed them cooked
unless you can absolutely pluck out all the bones.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

"Even though the groceries in my remote town are very expensive, I will
still save money by switching to raw,"

Also check with local butchers, friends/family who hunt, etc. Wild game is
IMO the best for them, venison, elk, turkey, moose, etc.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 3:49 pm ((PDT))

You think that seems weird? My 7 mo old SIberian Husky female (who should
top out around 36-38lbs, based on how big I think she's going to be) eats as
much as my 23 1/2", 62 lb Siberian Husky male!

Start with "something" (her estimated ideal weight) but be prepared to
adjust as needed. :-)


On 10/1/07, sfed57 <sfed57@yahoo.ca> wrote:
I have two Siberian Huskys. Ruby is a ten month old female about
47lbs and my Raven is a five month old female I think about 15-
20lbs. My question is do I feed Raven 2-3% of her ideal ADULT
weight? In this case, I would be feeding my two dogs the same amount
even though one is full grown and one is still a little puppy? Also,
their weight should be between 35-50lbs so do I just average at
around 42 lbs for the ideal weight?

Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks so much,

Shawna

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying
on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated
with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You
agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal
responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats,
ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't
agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
Yahoo! Groups Links

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 4:07 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!


Hahaha, that sounds just what Raven will be like! Ruby was always a
light eater, and only eats at feeding time now that we have Raven.
Raven on the other hand is an absolute cow and I dont think she would
stop eating if the food never ran out! She finishes her meals twice
as fast as Ruby and sits and waits to see if Ruby will leave any
behind for her!

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> You think that seems weird? My 7 mo old SIberian Husky female (who
should
> top out around 36-38lbs, based on how big I think she's going to
be) eats as
> much as my 23 1/2", 62 lb Siberian Husky male!
>
> Start with "something" (her estimated ideal weight) but be prepared
to
> adjust as needed. :-)
>
>
> On 10/1/07, sfed57 <sfed57@...> wrote:
> I have two Siberian Huskys. Ruby is a ten month old female about
> 47lbs and my Raven is a five month old female I think about 15-
> 20lbs. My question is do I feed Raven 2-3% of her ideal ADULT
> weight? In this case, I would be feeding my two dogs the same
amount
> even though one is full grown and one is still a little puppy?
Also,
> their weight should be between 35-50lbs so do I just average at
> around 42 lbs for the ideal weight?
>
> Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks so much,
>
> Shawna
>
>
>
> All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By
staying
> on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or
associated
> with this list liable for any information posted through this
list. You
> agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for
personal
> responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your
dogs, cats,
> ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you
don't
> agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
> Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
> Bertrand Russell
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Gail Edmond" windybond1@yahoo.co.uk windybond1
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 4:27 pm ((PDT))

Hi

Need help trying to raw feed have been doing so for about three months now, trouble is i have had a chicken wing down for three days now and it is left untouched by both my dogs. I have chopped the meat up into small portions and left the bone with a bit of meat on. Keep replacing with fresh every day. I put Omega three on do you think that is what is putting them off also would like some advice on what other foods to feed. Get cut offs from the butchers, chicken from the supermarket human grade but they are both so fussy. My boy dog Bobby has dry skin so would like any help with that. My girl has a lovely silky shiney coat but they are both so skinny. Cos i dont really know what i am doing i am frightened i may be doing them some harm. I leave a bowl of Burns down just in case they prefer it but they wont touch it. I know you all disagree with kibble but i dont want them to starve so try everything at the moment. HELP.

Gail

----- Original Message ----
From: sfed57 <sfed57@yahoo.ca>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 1 October, 2007 11:58:09 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!

Hahaha, that sounds just what Raven will be like! Ruby was always a
light eater, and only eats at feeding time now that we have Raven.
Raven on the other hand is an absolute cow and I dont think she would
stop eating if the food never ran out! She finishes her meals twice
as fast as Ruby and sits and waits to see if Ruby will leave any
behind for her!

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogro ups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@ ...>
wrote:
>
> You think that seems weird? My 7 mo old SIberian Husky female (who
should
> top out around 36-38lbs, based on how big I think she's going to
be) eats as
> much as my 23 1/2", 62 lb Siberian Husky male!
>
> Start with "something" (her estimated ideal weight) but be prepared
to
> adjust as needed. :-)
>
>
> On 10/1/07, sfed57 <sfed57@...> wrote:
> I have two Siberian Huskys. Ruby is a ten month old female about
> 47lbs and my Raven is a five month old female I think about 15-
> 20lbs. My question is do I feed Raven 2-3% of her ideal ADULT
> weight? In this case, I would be feeding my two dogs the same
amount
> even though one is full grown and one is still a little puppy?
Also,
> their weight should be between 35-50lbs so do I just average at
> around 42 lbs for the ideal weight?
>
> Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks so much,
>
> Shawna
>
>
>
> All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By
staying
> on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or
associated
> with this list liable for any information posted through this
list. You
> agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for
personal
> responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your
dogs, cats,
> ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you
don't
> agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Laura A
> Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossibe rians.com
> Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
> Bertrand Russell
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it
now.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

4e. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 5:00 pm ((PDT))

"sfed57" <sfed57@...> wrote:
>I
> currently have to drive two and a half hours to buy the food I'm
> feeding them (which, for K**ble standars is very good, it is made
> locally with human quality chicken, locally cought whitfish and
> salmon, other meats, and absolutly no carbs)and a 30lbs bag cost me
> $65 and only last two and a half weeks!!
*****
Information please!
I assume this bag o' stuff you are feeding is not kibble, given that
it has no carbs I don't see how it can be; but if it is kibble, might
you tell me/us the name? You can email me privately if you'd
prefer. I ask because in order for kibble to be kibble it must have
some base, and if the base isn't carb, I don't know how they do it!
OTOH, if what you're buying is frozen or freeze-dried or dehydrated,
never mind. My mistake.


Raven is a five month old female I think about 15-
> 20lbs. My question is do I feed Raven 2-3% of her ideal ADULT
> weight?
*****
Yes, her anticipated ideal adult weight.


In this case, I would be feeding my two dogs the same amount
> even though one is full grown and one is still a little puppy?
*****
Except to adjust for individual need, yup, you be right.


Also,
> their weight should be between 35-50lbs so do I just average at
> around 42 lbs for the ideal weight?
*****
Sure. It's just a starting place anyway. You will adjust up and
down throughout the dogs' lives, so getting started is job one.
Figuring out what works best for each dog is on-going so you got time.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

4f. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 8:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Gail Edmond <windybond1@...>
wrote:
>
> Need help trying to raw feed have been doing so for about
> three months now, trouble is i have had a chicken wing down
> for three days now and it is left untouched by both my dogs.

I don't think you mean your dogs haven't eaten for 3 months. What
else are you feeding? What did they eat before the last 3 days?
Did they eat fine and just stop 3 days ago? What kind of dogs are
they? age? size?

> I have chopped the meat up into small portions and left the
> bone with a bit of meat on.

Chicken wings are small before you chopped them up. Chicken wings
are too small to feed any but the very smallest of dogs. I feed
wings only to my cats.

> Keep replacing with fresh every
> day.

No need to. I sometimes feed my dogs meat that is a week old or
more.

> I put Omega three on do you think that is what is
> putting them off also would like some advice on what other
> foods to feed.

If you started putting it on 3 days ago, I would guess that is your
problem. Feed whole chickens, half chickens, chicken quarters,
chicken backs, chicken breasts, any part of the turkey, pork roasts
and rib racks and necks, beef rib racks and boneless roasts,
occasional ground beef, beef heart, any part of a lamb, any part of
a deer, any organ from any animal, whole rabbits, quail, squirrel.

> Get cut offs from the butchers, chicken from
> the supermarket human grade but they are both so fussy.

They are fussy for one reason ... you allow them to be. Put the
food down. After 10 minutes of no interest take it back up and feed
exactly the same thing next meal. Repeat the process until they eat
it. They will learn that they eat what you put down or they don't
eat. It is their choice. They will NOT starve. You must be strong
and take responsibility for your dog's diets.

> My boy dog Bobby has dry skin so would like any help with that.

Get them eating a good varied diet first, then worry about dry skin.

> My girl has a lovely silky shiney coat but they are both
> so skinny.

Within reason, skinny is good. Since I can't see them, I don't know
what to tell you about that. There may be another problem like
parasites.

> Cos i dont really know what i am doing i am frightened i may
> be doing them some harm.

I doubt you are doing them any harm. Were they eating good before
the last 3 days?

> I leave a bowl of Burns down just in case they prefer it but
> they wont touch it.

I don't know what "burns" are but don't give them access to any food
except meals until they start eating correctly.

> I know you all disagree with kibble but i dont want them to
> starve so try everything at the moment.

If you think there is a health problem, have them checked out. If
only one of the dogs was acting like this, I would be more inclined
towards a health problem but not both of them. A healthy dog will
not allow himself to starve if there is food available.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (11)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Shedding on raw
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

"My dogs are shedding like the dickens now. Anyone have any idea what's
going on and what I can do to help alleviate it? I do give them fish oils in
(as per the dosages recommended here) their diet 2-3 times a week. "

I give my gsds, 85-95lbs, 4 fish oil caps daily, they still blow their coats
spring/fall but it sure helps on the shedding in general.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Are pork ribs tips safe?
Posted by: "Carol Garnaat" cgar88@ameritech.net sewnchine
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi Gieselle,
Thank you for the response. With my 12lb daschund, 2% is just under 4oz of raw per day. Divided into 2 meals, that is 2oz of raw each meal. How do I feed bigger than their head and keep the amount down to their daily allowance?

With my 8.5lb Yorkie, her meal allowance is 1/5oz and she wants MORE! I think she would eat a piece as big as her head if allowed, LOL!

Am I figuring these amounts correctly? Neither is losing weight.
12lb x 16oz = 192oz weight x .02 = 3.84oz total daily allowance.
8.5lb x 16oz = 136oz weight x .02= 2.72oz total daily allowance.
I round these up to 4oz and 3oz.

Carol

----- Original Message -----
From: Giselle
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 6:17 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Are pork ribs tips safe?


Hi, Carol!
Too small - feed food bigger than their head is a good rule
of thumb for tiny dogs, as well as big'uns.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> > Are pork rib tips safe for my small dogs, Yorkie 8.5lb, Doxie 12lb?
> > The rib bones are cut 1/2 to 3/4 inches long.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: runns in house & gagging
Posted by: "Carol Garnaat" cgar88@ameritech.net sewnchine
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

Trina,
Please update with status of Whisper.
Carol
----- Original Message -----
From: T Smith
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Re: runns in house & gagging


After my posting this morning, Whisper had a gran mal seizure.
We've returned from the vet but I am still very upset about a few things, I
am at work (she is with me).
Trina

--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)
.

On 10/1/07, Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Trina, I think you are being a good protective mom to your pup and
> just getting too worried about something that isn't a big deal. If
> she ate beef bone without a lot of meat to cushion it, it is likely
> she scratched her throat a little which causes her to cough. Other
> than being annoying for her, it doesn't seem to bother her much - as
> evidenced by her running around and playing as usual. FYI, though
> beef ribS are a good workout, a beef rib (single) is not usually
> recommended for anything but toy dogs since larger ones can easily
> try to swallow the whole thing. You could always take her into the
> vet so they could have a look at her throat and check for kennel
> cough just in case if it still bothers you.
>
> Everyone makes some missteps along the way, some larger than others.
> IMO this wasn't a big mistake on your part, just a learning
> experience.
>
> Andrea
>

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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7b. Re: runns in house & gagging
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 9:06 pm ((PDT))

Oh no, Trina! I can only imagine how you are feeling right now. :-(
My cousin had one last year and it really is a gut-wrenching
experience, both during and for a long time after. You will be in my
thoughts.

Shannon H.

>
> After my posting this morning, Whisper had a gran mal seizure.
> We've returned from the vet but I am still very upset about a few
things, I
> am at work (she is with me).

Messages in this topic (12)
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8a. Diseases in deer/rabbit meat?
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

I read on this group before that deer/rabbit and other wild animals
can contain diseases that can spread to dogs if it is not frozen for a
certain amount of time. Is this true? If so, how long do I need to
keep these kinds of meat frozen before I feed them? Is there any part
of wild animals that I should avoid feeding?

Thanks,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Diseases in deer/rabbit meat?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 9:05 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>
> I read on this group before that deer/rabbit and other wild
animals
> can contain diseases that can spread to dogs if it is not frozen
> for a
> certain amount of time.

My dogs catch rabbits and squirrels from time to time and eat them
on the spot. My cats catch and eat little cirtters almost daily. I
don't worry about it.

> If so, how long do I need to
> keep these kinds of meat frozen before I feed them?

If you are concerned about it, a few weeks should be ok. Dogs have
such acidic stomach juices, I really don't worry about anything that
goes in the mouth.

> Is there
> any part
> of wild animals that I should avoid feeding?

Not that I can think of right now.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 8:08 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
>
> I have a frenchie puppy-11 weeks that has been eating raw for two
weeks now.? She choked this morning on her usual chicken breast!?


Although I'm a Newbie, I believe I can say that the bone will digest
with a degree of certainty. Dogs have a strong acid in their stomach
that will dissolve the bone. If there is no blockage why does the vet
want to remove what's in her stomach? I would at least get a very clear
answer as to why he wants to operate.

I have pugs and because sticking your finger down their throat is not
so easy because of that fat tongue, I suggest yuo learn how to do the
Heimleich on your dog. I did and had to use it once on my gulper. I
always have to keep an eye out on the pugs because of the way they eat.
My other dogs are champs at eating but the pugs leave a lot to be
desired. Good luck with your Frenchie.


Messages in this topic (24)
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10a. Re: FREECYCLE (was: Cheap meat)
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 9:03 pm ((PDT))

The two times I've put up an ad on Freecycle for meat I just said
something along the lines of:

If you have freezerburnt or old meat you were planning on throwing away
I'd love to have it! :-)

Nice and simple. I've had several people e-mail me just to ask what I
was going to do with it, at which point I say it's for my dog. I liked
that other poster's idea to say I make home-made dog food, I may use
that from now on. :-D

Shannon H.

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
Posted by: "Maiakitas@aol.com" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 9:04 pm ((PDT))

Megan,

You had some great ideas that I most certainly will try. The parmesan cheese
didn't work and also, he gets his food for 10 minutes and then it is gone. I
don't stand there while he eats. I never did when he ate kibble. I give the
dogs their food and do what I have to do and when I come back whoever has eaten
has eaten. Never had a problem with that. Just the Beau and raw thing taking
this "ugly" turn has me frazzled, especially with some big shows coming up in
the next couple of months. I know his health is more important than a dog show,
but you know how US show people are. You did see "Best In Show" didn't you? I
rest my case. ;o)

I had tried giving him raw as his training treat, which was an abysmal
failure, but didn't try mixing it with the high value cooked chicken and liver. Will
certainly give that a shot and the tripe and ground meat
meatballs....phew..what a combo, but I picked up about 10 lbs of ground tripe today at a natural
pet store, so I will try that until I can order more.

I donated all of my doggy kibble and treats to my local animal shelter, so it
is out of the house. The only "processed" food in the house is Innova Evo, a
no-grain food for the cat, while I am transitioning them to raw. You can't do
the starving thing with kitties.

Yes I do smile everytime I feed Beau because I am looking at the beautiful
meat he is not eating thinking, shoot I could have popped that on the grill!!

I'm going to give your ideas a try or else I'm sending him to a Raw Feeding
Boot Camp. Thanks Megan and thanks for the yahoo group although I do know who
the few other natural/raw Akita breeders are. I just have to find the right dog
for Bailey.

Warm Regards,
Carla


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Messages in this topic (7)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12103

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Rescues
From: Misty Sargent

2a. Re: Partial success with my "starving" dog
From: Misty Sargent

3a. Are pork ribs tips safe?
From: Carol Garnaat
3b. Re: Are pork ribs tips safe?
From: Andrea
3c. Re: Are pork ribs tips safe?
From: Giselle

4a. Re: Shedding on raw
From: Caren OConnor
4b. Re: Shedding on raw
From: Giselle

5. Co-op in Houston?
From: Michael Moore

6a. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
From: T Smith

7a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
From: Giselle
7b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
From: Giselle

8a. raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: sfed57
8b. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Tina Berry
8c. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Sandee Lee
8d. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: sfed57
8e. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Andrea

9a. Re: Largemouth Bass Heads and Misc. ?'s
From: larsen_biology

10a. Re: How often for different organs?
From: Giselle
10b. Re: How much raw egg?
From: Carol Dunster
10c. Re: How often for different organs?
From: Tina Berry
10d. Re: How much raw egg?
From: Tina Berry
10e. Re: How much raw egg?
From: Andrea
10f. Re: How much raw egg?
From: Carol Dunster

11a. Re: runns in house & gagging
From: T Smith

12a. Re: A few problems with raw diet
From: Giselle


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Rescues
Posted by: "Misty Sargent" jrtlover27@yahoo.com jrtlover27
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

I treat my rescues as if they were one of my own dogs. They are fed raw along with my dogs, and if their adopter chooses to go back to kibble or something else, then that is their decision. I do encourage them to feed raw, but the reality is that not everyone is going to do it. I do find that the rescues who have been on a very low quality diet tend to take a bit longer to adjust to the raw, but they eventually do fine on it.

Misty


---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: Partial success with my "starving" dog
Posted by: "Misty Sargent" jrtlover27@yahoo.com jrtlover27
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

I'm glad to hear that Fern is coming around. :-)

Misty


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Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Are pork ribs tips safe?
Posted by: "Carol Garnaat" cgar88@ameritech.net sewnchine
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

Hello all,
Are pork rib tips safe for my small dogs, Yorkie 8.5lb, Doxie 12lb? The rib
bones are cut 1/2 to 3/4 inches long.
Thanks for all your help,
Carol

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Are pork ribs tips safe?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 1:25 pm ((PDT))

If it is small enough for the little'uns to swallow without breaking it
down first I would pass. I'm terrible at estimating size but it sounds
too small to me.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Garnaat" <cgar88@...> wrote:

> Are pork rib tips safe for my small dogs, Yorkie 8.5lb, Doxie 12lb?
> The rib bones are cut 1/2 to 3/4 inches long.


Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Are pork ribs tips safe?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 3:17 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carol!
Too small - feed food bigger than their head is a good rule
of thumb for tiny dogs, as well as big'uns.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey


> > Are pork rib tips safe for my small dogs, Yorkie 8.5lb, Doxie 12lb?
> > The rib bones are cut 1/2 to 3/4 inches long.
>


Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Shedding on raw
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:31 pm ((PDT))

Kae -
I have Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and they shed "to beat the band" all year 'round. I don't know how they would shed if fed a diet of doom nuggets because I've never fed these guys that type of diet.
When bathing my crew I use a comb after using a heavy conditioner and comb through to remove dead hair. That removes loads of hair but I need the vaccuum to catch the rest. I wasn't aware the shedding cycles of dogs on raw were different from the shedding cycles of dogs. Does anyone know this to be a fact?
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

kaebruney <kaebruney@yahoo.com> wrote:
Someone posted some info sometiem back about the shedding cycles of
dogs on raw...

Can someone help me with that. I tried searching and can't find it.

My dogs are shedding liek the dickens now. My rat terrier is about
8mos and my AmBull is about 3yrs but has been on raw for only 2mos. i
know it's not time for them to change coats as it's not even cold
down here yet and there is no increased shedding from my Scottie.

Anyone have any idea what's going on and what I can do to help
alleviate it? I do give them fish oils in (as per the dosages
recommended here) their diet 2-3 times a week.
Thanks for the help!

Kae


---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Shedding on raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Kae!
I don't think its a shedding cycle per se (although it can
occur at a normal time for dogs to shed), as it is some dogs body's
reaction to the more optimum nutrition. Out with the old, in with the
new, as it were.
Other dogs, who may not have as strong a reaction to eating raw, have
a more controlled shed, more than 'normal', but less than a complete
coat change.
Any of these different 'shed patterns' seem to occur anytime, from a
couple weeks to several months down the road from starting raw feeding.
Here's an archived post on the subject;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141039
and another;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141711

There are tons of posts you get if you type in shedding into the
search box, you just have to have patience and sort.

I'd give them each a bath, using a gentle additive free oatmeal
shampoo or castile soap. Then, I'd brush, and brush and brush -
outdoors - daily, to help the shed along. A good shedding brush, comb
or tool can help a lot. You don't have heavily coated breeds, so thank
your lucky stars! ; )
http://www.google.com/products?q=shedding+brush+comb&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=product_result&resnum=1&ct=title
http://tinyurl.com/yse2wk

TC
Giselle


> Someone posted some info sometime back about the shedding cycles of
> dogs on raw...
>
> Can someone help me with that. I tried searching and can't find it.
>
> My dogs are shedding like the dickens now. <snip>
> Anyone have any idea what's going on and what I can do to help
> alleviate it? I do give them fish oils in (as per the dosages
> recommended here) their diet 2-3 times a week.
> Thanks for the help!
>
> Kae
>


Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

5. Co-op in Houston?
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:31 pm ((PDT))

Hi, folks -- I'm asking for a friend who's recently moved to Houston, and I don't remember what "link" to send her to. Anyone have info on a rawfeeding co-op in the Houston, TX area? I'll pass it along. Thanks in advance...

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:38 pm ((PDT))

You are in my thoughts & prayers for your little one.
We, too, just returned from an emergency vet visit.
PLEASE keep us updated, I know how worried you must be.
I wish I could give more advice but I am new to raw & screwing it up *s* so
definitely follow the 'oldies' here!
Trina

> From: <Doguefan@aol.com <Doguefan%40aol.com>>
>
> > I am new to this area, and I do not know this vet at all.? I went to the
> nearest place.? He stabilized her and took x-rays immediately.? There is
> nothing odd in the x-ray, no blockage now, but her little throat(remember
> this is a frenchie) was so swollen and irritated that she was choking on
> all
> the saliva.? She is on O2 and IV's and is doing well, she is calm and
> though
> she is still having a hard time breathing, it is not because she has a
> blocked airway.? NOW, the vet tells me he needs to open her up and take
> out
> whatever is in her stomach!? That sound slike a disaster to me, all the
> secondary infections of opening a gutt!
> > Does anyone have any advice?? If she got the bone down, will it
> digest...PLEASE HELP ME!
>


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Messages in this topic (23)
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7a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 1:22 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carla!
Your problem with Beau sounds like a combination of a dog
thats hard to keep and one who KNOWS if he holds out, he will get
something 'better'. Not an easy combo to overcome.

We like focus and persistence in a dog when we're training them, but
not when they use it to get their own way! ; )

This is complicated by the fact that he also knows when training time
is coming, and can get high value stuff (to him) then, too.
I'd stick with the feeding plan and schedule you have set with Bailey,
for Beau, too; but I'd plan to offer higher fat meats, like pork and
tongue.
Both these archived posts can help you get your boy on track;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134336
Message #134336

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758
Message #130758

Tripe can indeed be a way to get him to eat what he doesn't like, if
you ribbon a portion or cut slits in it and mash the tripe into the
piece. If he likes tripe, tho' I've never heard of a dog who didn't.
For this purpose, I'd used the coarsely ground that you can buy online.

Another thing I would do, is start using raw as training treats.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/142146
message # 142146
Mixing the 'old' training treats with raw treats in the same container
can make the raw more palatable, and then you just phase out the 'old
stuff' gradually.

Someone recently emailed me (Thanks, Nicole!) and mentioned that she
is making teensy 1/4 ounce meatballs as training treats. She freezes
them, and takes out just enough for the day. You could mix up some
ground meat with ground tripe, sounds yummy! If Beau likes to chew,
you could stuff a Kong with ground meat/tripe and poke a Bully stick
in it - freeze, and you have a Kongsickle!
Once Beau figures out that he won't get 'the old stuff' anywhere,
anymore, he will start to accommodate his palate to raw.

Hmm, any other ideas? Yeah, if Beau got any tummy grumbles when first
eating raw, he may just be reluctant to experience that again. Some
dogs are VERY proactive when it comes to avoiding stuff that doesn't
agree. Its a survival skill. You could use Slippery Elm Bark Powder
with his meals, temporarily, to counteract any upset he might experience.
15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is “used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis.”
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in ½ ounce meatballs,
for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with each meal. Or,
fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or two) offer
plenty of water. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times throughout the day.
Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days after, gradually
increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP meatballs. You will often
see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of the way it
soothes the digestive system, and the dog’s body will do the same
sometimes even without SEBP.

Another thing you can do, which will be harder than anything else, is
not to stress and worry, and hover. Dogs pick up on our feelings, if
not our meanings, and part of his problem with the new raw food may be
that meals have become impossibly anxiety filled for him, and he'd
rather not deal.

Do you still have kibble or processed treats in the house? Tossing the
'old stuff' and cleaning out the containers and storage area while
Beau is there watching, can help 'clear the air' and get rid of the
'alluring scent' of those Doom Nuggets.

Breathe, frequently and often, and SMILE whenever you think about
feeding Beau.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey


> His sister Bailey is an easy keeper. She was on kibble as well. She
eats
> anything and everything although was slow to switch over to raw, but
now that she
> has gotten the hang of things loves it and continues to look great.
Will even
> eat little chicken feet for snacks now. :o) Can't wait to finish her
and breed
> her next year and have some raw babies! (But to find a raw fed,
no-vac male
> that I like will be another hurdle, but I will address that then :o))
>
> As I mentioned I have been fortunate and took it slow with the dogs
and have
> found no tummy upsets with any of the protein sources that I have
used which
> have only been chicken, pork, beef, lamb, duck and fish and can take
mixed
> meats. Organ meat also agrees with them.
>
> As far as Beau goes, when he was on a k***le, he needed one that was
high in
> protein and fat to maintain his weight and did best on a food for
very active
> dogs, which he is not and he tended to require more food than less.
If say his
> weight listed on the bag required 4-6 cups of food, he would need 6
cups. (Of
> course that was not carved in stone and I know just a guideline but
I adjust
> that for the dog) That worked fine for him. I do not consider him an
easy
> keeper, but I really didn't have to do anything special besides
having him on the
> right food. I don't keep my dogs fat, even when showing, but since
he has been
> on raw he has dropped a good 15 or more pounds and now has the terrible
> tearing of his eyes.
>
> He does not always refuse his meals. Like this morning after missing
three
> days of eating, he ate about 2 lbs of the pork loin that had been
seared and had
> garlic on it. I only put part of it down,
> because I thought maybe he would eat some and he did. On k****le
they ate two
> meals. I have tried two meals with him and one meal and seems to
make no
> difference. He has never been a dog to eat large amounts in one
sitting, so again
> I was figuring two meals at the beginning of raw was the way to go.
When he
> doesn't want the food, he walks over to it, sniffs it and then tries
to cover it
> with whatever is handy...a leaf, a toy, whatever and then goes and
lays down.
> I know he is hungry because when he is training in obedience class
he is
> quite interested in the cooked chicken or liver. If he is going to
eat the food he
> eats it and if not, he won't. It now doesn't seem to matter what it is,
> whether it is a London broil or baby back ribs or chicken or liver
or pork shoulder
> or whatever. He went through a not wanting chicken, but got through
that.
>
> I just got some green tripe today, but he can't just eat tripe.
>
> Again, I know all of the experienced people are just rolling their
eyes at
> me, but I am an experienced dog person who tells people all of the
time don't
> let your dog dictate what it will and won't eat. This is different
when you see
> your dog who looked great before, looking terrible on something that is
> supposed to be good for him. It is frustrating.
>
> HELP!!!! :o(
>
> Regards,
> Carla


Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers -I'm In The Same Boat
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 1:25 pm ((PDT))

Pooh, got carried away and forgot to mention this list;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ClassifiedDogsNR/
TC
G

<snip>
Can't wait to finish her and breed
> her next year and have some raw babies! (But to find a raw fed,
no-vac male
> that I like will be another hurdle, but I will address that then :o))
<snip>
> HELP!!!! :o(
>
> Regards,
> Carla

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 1:25 pm ((PDT))

Hello all, I've just joined the group and am so pleased with the
amount of supportive advice I have been seeing on the site. After
having so much trouble with finding good quality dog foods in the K%
^&ble variaty, I have decided to try my dogs on the raw food. I
currently have to drive two and a half hours to buy the food I'm
feeding them (which, for K**ble standars is very good, it is made
locally with human quality chicken, locally cought whitfish and
salmon, other meats, and absolutly no carbs)and a 30lbs bag cost me
$65 and only last two and a half weeks!! Still, as good as it may
seem, I really am seeing the benefit of switching to raw.

I have two Siberian Huskys. Ruby is a ten month old female about
47lbs and my Raven is a five month old female I think about 15-
20lbs. My question is do I feed Raven 2-3% of her ideal ADULT
weight? In this case, I would be feeding my two dogs the same amount
even though one is full grown and one is still a little puppy? Also,
their weight should be between 35-50lbs so do I just average at
around 42 lbs for the ideal weight?

Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks so much,

Shawna

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 2:08 pm ((PDT))

"My question is do I feed Raven 2-3% of her ideal ADULT weight? In this
case, I would be feeding my two dogs the same amount even though one is full
grown and one is still a little puppy?"

You are correct - this is a good place to start and then adjust if they get
too fat or too thin. You should be able to see their last rib and their
sides should feel like a washboard when they are at an ideal weight, but not
too skinny.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

Hi Shawna,

You don't need to drive 2 1/2 hours to purchase "made" food for your dogs.
If you have a grocery store anywhere nearby, you can feed them far more
economically and healthier. Just run down and buy a chicken, a fish, some
beef parts, a nice pork roast, etc. and you're all set! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "sfed57" <sfed57@yahoo.ca>


Hello all, I've just joined the group and am so pleased with the
amount of supportive advice I have been seeing on the site. After
having so much trouble with finding good quality dog foods in the K%
^&ble variaty, I have decided to try my dogs on the raw food. I
currently have to drive two and a half hours to buy the food I'm
feeding them (which, for K**ble standars is very good, it is made
locally with human quality chicken, locally cought whitfish and
salmon, other meats, and absolutly no carbs)and a 30lbs bag cost me
$65 and only last two and a half weeks!! Still, as good as it may
seem, I really am seeing the benefit of switching to raw.


Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

8d. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 2:48 pm ((PDT))

Thanks, I'll start them on the same amount of food. And no kidding,
its rediculous to have to drive that far to get "good" K***ble, I
figure with the cost of food and gas, I was spending at least $5 a day
on food for them. Even though the groceries in my remote town are very
expensive, I will still save money by switching to raw, not to mention
how much better it is for them!

Shawna

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

8e. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 2:51 pm ((PDT))

Shawna, you're right, you should start feeding both girls the same
amount of food. Raven should probably have her meals split into two
feedings a day for a while. You don't have to be super precise with
the amount of food the girls eat, so shoot for feeding them 3/4 to
1lb of food a day. Once they have been eating for a while you can
use their appearance as a guide to feed more or less.

It's usually easiest to start with chicken, though any protein source
will do. Just stick with that one source for a week or two until you
are sure their digestion is up to snuff. At least you know you won't
have to ask yourself if the price is too high with raw feeding!
Assuming your pups eat around 1lb a day you could spend $2.30/lb on
food and still break even! Welcome to the group.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sfed57" <sfed57@...> wrote:

> I currently have to drive two and a half hours to buy the food I'm
> feeding them (which, for K**ble standars is very good, it is made
> locally with human quality chicken, locally cought whitfish and
> salmon, other meats, and absolutly no carbs)and a 30lbs bag cost me
> $65 and only last two and a half weeks!! Still, as good as it may
> seem, I really am seeing the benefit of switching to raw.
>
> I have two Siberian Huskys. Ruby is a ten month old female about
> 47lbs and my Raven is a five month old female I think about 15-
> 20lbs. My question is do I feed Raven 2-3% of her ideal ADULT
> weight? In this case, I would be feeding my two dogs the same
> amount even though one is full grown and one is still a little
> puppy? Also, their weight should be between 35-50lbs

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Largemouth Bass Heads and Misc. ?'s
Posted by: "larsen_biology" larsen_biology@yahoo.com larsen_biology
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 1:26 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the feedback. The only issue on this particular lake would
be mercury and its not in the "crazy don't do it list..." more in the
watch and limit consumption to just a few times each month. I'm not
worried about the heads since it'll only be a one meal thing. However,
I have decided that edible or not, I'll not be doing the squawfish- at
least from this lake.

We are in California (on Clear Lake) so I am familiar with mercury and
other contaminants. My DH and I are avid bass fisherman and are *very*
selective about the lakes that we'll eat from.

Largemouth bass are not pacific salmonids so I am not worried about
salmon poisoning at all. One of the upsides! I didn't "plan" on them
ingesting any parts of the fish prior to freezing- it was totally my
fault for not restricting their access to the yard while we cleaned.
At least the fish were not "fresh caught" and had been iced for 24
hours.

-Heather


Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: How often for different organs?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carol!

****I wouldn't feed a whole meal of organs to any dog I wasn't sure could
> >tolerate it. Feeding whole meals of squidgey ick organs is a sure
> >recipe for cannon butt. Toleration often can be built up over time.
****
>
> Is that the main reason for not feeding more organ meat?

**** Organs are important, but, they are NOT meat. Organs should
comprise 10% of the TOTAL diet.

Some organs are fed as meat, because they are.
The percentages we use and recommend to feed are an approximation of
whole prey, which, for each animal, is perfectly balanced.
80% of a dog's diet should be meatymeat - that consists of muscle,
fat, skin, fur, connective tissue - any part that isn't bone or organ.
Organs that are fed as meat are; heart, gizzards, tongue and most
likely, tripe. ****

What are the
> good points and the bad ones for liver, for instance? (I have a large
> supply of quality organ meat, but can find other stuff I'm sure.)

**** Liver is an essential part of the diet - and it should comprise
only about 3-5% of the TOTAL diet.

You can't feed organs instead of meatymeat, just like bones can't take
the place of meatymeat or organs, but they all have their place.

If you overfeed organs, short term, most likely you'll have cannon
butt or the hershey squirts PDQ - at some point, long term, your dog
might have an overabundance of Vit. A from liver - you'll have to
balance it out with lots of meatymeat and a little bone. ****
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> ~ Carol
> _____________
> Carol Dunster
> cedunster@...

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: How much raw egg?
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

Ok, I have the percentage pretty well figured for the organ meat...
now how much egg is appropriate? Often our ducks lay more than we need
and I KNOW how they are fed and cared for, so I'd want to use their
eggs too. Are there any other considerations for feeding raw eggs?
~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net


Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

10c. Re: How often for different organs?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 2:01 pm ((PDT))

"If you overfeed organs, short term, most likely you'll have cannon butt or
the hershey squirts PDQ - at some point, long term, your dog might have an
overabundance of Vit. A from liver - you'll have to balance it out with lots
of meatymeat and a little bone."

Ditto. And we feed liver either a little with each meal (like whole
chickens with organs) or once a week feed a liver meal. They can get too
much Vitamin A & D from liver; it should be 10% of total diet over time
meaning it doesn't have to be 10% per meal or per week; just average out to
10% over time.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

10d. Re: How much raw egg?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 2:08 pm ((PDT))

"Ok, I have the percentage pretty well figured for the organ meat... now how
much egg is appropriate? Often our ducks lay more than we need and I KNOW
how they are fed and cared for, so I'd want to use their eggs too."

I give mine a raw whole egg daily.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

10e. Re: How much raw egg?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 2:48 pm ((PDT))

> Are there any other considerations for feeding raw eggs?

IMO, just bowel tolerance. I don't think I've ever fed my boys enough
egg to give them loose stools, but I've also never fed them more than
one or two at a time every so often. They love eggs, but I'm not such
a huge fan of the egg-farts that they bless me with. It is a joy to
watch Geiger gently break open his egg and lick out the inside. Not so
much fun to watch Tycho throw the egg in the air so it breaks open on
the kitchen floor. <Note to self: ask Tycho to study Geiger eating eggs>

Andrea

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

10f. Re: How much raw egg?
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 2:48 pm ((PDT))

On Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:01:42 -0600, you wrote:

>I give mine a raw whole egg daily.

What size dog do you give a whole egg daily?
~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net


Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: runns in house & gagging
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

After my posting this morning, Whisper had a gran mal seizure.
We've returned from the vet but I am still very upset about a few things, I
am at work (she is with me).
Trina

--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)
.

On 10/1/07, Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Trina, I think you are being a good protective mom to your pup and
> just getting too worried about something that isn't a big deal. If
> she ate beef bone without a lot of meat to cushion it, it is likely
> she scratched her throat a little which causes her to cough. Other
> than being annoying for her, it doesn't seem to bother her much - as
> evidenced by her running around and playing as usual. FYI, though
> beef ribS are a good workout, a beef rib (single) is not usually
> recommended for anything but toy dogs since larger ones can easily
> try to swallow the whole thing. You could always take her into the
> vet so they could have a look at her throat and check for kennel
> cough just in case if it still bothers you.
>
> Everyone makes some missteps along the way, some larger than others.
> IMO this wasn't a big mistake on your part, just a learning
> experience.
>
> Andrea
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: A few problems with raw diet
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Elizabeth!
Wolves, the wild counterpart to our dogs, do NOT eat the
stomach contents of large prey. This is a misconception, propagated by
the inaccurate reportings of some early wolf observers. They reported
that wolves usually consumed the *stomach* of the prey first, when
they should have reported that they opened and consumed the *abdomen*,
which is the easiest part to open, and is the gateway to those
essential organs. This misconception has led to feeding plans that
include vegetable matter, and grinding, pureeing and suchlike.

Wolves may consume some or part or a little of the digesta of large
prey, but that would be because they didn't shake it out thoroughly
enough, or because the hunting had been scarce and they were starving.

Wolves, and dogs, have not evolved to derive optimum nourishment from
plant matter. Even that which is predigested by prey animals. They eat
the animals that eat the plant matter, and derive all their nutrients
in this way. Each to its own ecological niche.

You might benefit from reading over these recommendations for feeding raw;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374

And these websites;
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html


http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes


Raw feeding is not hard, but there is a plethora of websites, books,
old wives tales and 'info' out there that makes it seem difficult,
that isn't helpful, and may be harmful to feeding your dogs a species
appropriate raw whole prey model diet, which gives them optimum
nutrition in a form that feeds the whole dog.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Okay thank you so much Libby. You actually addressed quite a few of my
> concerns that I didn't mention. It was hard work grinding all that
> stuff up. I'll check the archives like you said. The only reason I did
> all that grinding is because I read it in a book, and because it
> simulated the contents of the prey's stomach. In case you check back
> on this, would I be looking for animal organs that still contained the
> stomach contents before it was killed? Or are you just talking about
> organs like heart, liver, kidneys and that stuff? Thanks a lot for
> your help and the percentages you gave.
>
> -Elizabeth O.

Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12102

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: runns in house & gagging!
From: T Smith
1b. Re: runns in house & gagging!
From: Andrea
1c. Re: runns in house & gagging!
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
From: briargarden07
2b. 911-PLEASE HELP
From: Doguefan@aol.com
2c. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
From: Andrea
2d. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
From: brutus_buckley
2e. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
From: Sandee Lee
2f. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
From: costrowski75
2g. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
From: Doguefan@aol.com
2h. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
From: shane clays
2i. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: A few problems with raw diet
From: Andrea

4a. Re: {raw feeding} Link for Graigs list
From: keishay79

5a. Re: runns in house & gagging
From: Andrea
5b. Re: runns in house & gagging
From: Giselle

6. FREECYCLE (was: Cheap meat)
From: T Smith

7a. Partial success with my "starving" dog
From: qsgirl916
7b. Re: Partial success with my "starving" dog
From: Andrea

8a. Largemouth Bass Heads and Misc. ?'s
From: larsen_biology
8b. Re: Largemouth Bass Heads and Misc. ?'s
From: k9dine

9. Shedding on raw
From: kaebruney

10a. Re: Prepared Raw
From: Sandee Lee
10b. Re: Prepared Raw
From: raffiangel2

11.1. Re: New to raw
From: Giselle


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: runns in house & gagging!
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:34 am ((PDT))

No one's 'fault'. We let her have it since it has been almost a week, we
didn't think it would be so horrible. Remember I am VERY new to this
feeding, I don't want to be made to feel guilty for feeding a something I
didn't know she wasn't ready for. Why would it cause her to hack (like
gagging kennel cough?) BTW, she doesn't have kennel cough, that's just what
it sounds like as an example.
Please understand this feed change was a HUGE step for me & I want to be
convinced it's the right thing to do but if i don't get it right & I think
my dogs are suffering from it's effects, it might not be the right thing for
us. I only want what's best for my dogs & not to have blame pointed at
me.
Sorry but it's a sensitive issue trying to get this feeding right & thinking
I have just hurt my dog by feeding it a bone that I assumed by reading would
be fine! Perhaps you didn't mean anything Chris & I know you are a list
moderator.
Have a nice day.

Trina

On 10/1/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
>
> "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
> >> She did get a beef bone to chew on, could this be the cause of this
> whole
> > mess??????
> *****
> Yes.
> And whose fault is that?
> Chris O
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: runns in house & gagging!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

Trina, I think you are being a good protective mom to your pup and
just getting too worried about something that isn't a big deal. If
she ate beef bone without a lot of meat to cushion it, it is likely
she scratched her throat a little which causes her to cough. Other
than being annoying for her, it doesn't seem to bother her much - as
evidenced by her running around and playing as usual. FYI, though
beef ribS are a good workout, a beef rib (single) is not usually
recommended for anything but toy dogs since larger ones can easily
try to swallow the whole thing. You could always take her into the
vet so they could have a look at her throat and check for kennel
cough just in case if it still bothers you.

Everyone makes some missteps along the way, some larger than others.
IMO this wasn't a big mistake on your part, just a learning
experience.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:

> Sorry but it's a sensitive issue trying to get this feeding right &
> thinking I have just hurt my dog by feeding it a bone that I
> assumed by reading would be fine!

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: runns in house & gagging!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 11:56 am ((PDT))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> No one's 'fault'. We let her have it since it has been almost a
week, we
> didn't think it would be so horrible. Remember I am VERY new to
this
> feeding, I don't want to be made to feel guilty for feeding a
something I
> didn't know she wasn't ready
*****
Yes, you are very new. And you have asked many many questions which
is fine and many many members have devoted a wonderful amount of time
to helping you through your anxieties. I am blown away by the
efforts these people have sustained to assist you. There are some
remarkable people on this list.

Almost every one of these people suggested you go slowly, you start
simply, you not rush changes. They suggested meat choices and body
part choices. They discussed easy to eat bones and bones that are
difficult. Without doubt beef bones were included in the
conversations and I am pretty sure no one recommended beef bones at
this point. In fact, I'm pretty sure you were also told about
digestive fallout and what likely causes it.

That you chose to feed what you did despite the tonnage of advice you
received is unfortunate. I'm not sure why exactly you thought she
would be ready for a beef bone. It is somewhat distressing to think
you have not been reading all the good words people have been sending
your way.


Why would it cause her to hack (like
> gagging kennel cough?)
*****(
Possibly because her esophagus has been abraded.


> Please understand this feed change was a HUGE step for me & I want
to be
> convinced it's the right thing to do
*****
Slow down, pay attention to what people are recommending, think
things through, and ask questions beforehand. It is better--as I
think you unfortunately discovered--that proceeding by leaps and
precipitious bounds may not be the most successful way for you to
switch to raw food.

Given the special needs of your dogs, you might have proceed extra
super slowly to "do it right". You should. You shouldn't even think
twice about having to move slowly. You should however put a whole
lot of thought into taking ANY giant steps at this point.

It's easier to back up from baby steps than it is to recover from
wherever giant steps have taken you.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers
Posted by: "briargarden07" briargarden07@yahoo.com briargarden07
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:34 am ((PDT))

To the OP - I wonder what you mean by allergies? Dogs with itchy
skin or hot spots, ect, are often lumped into the "allergy" category,
when in fact, the dog suffers from a dietary deficiency. I've been
feeding raw long enough to have seen many obstacles that, in the
beginning, I also mistakenly thought were allergies.
I don't go crazy over balance, but you need to pay some
attention to it, and while variety helps, you may still have gaps in
the nutritional value. Are you feeding any foods that are high in
zinc (lamb, beef, fish) and how often do you give them? Dogs require
a very high zinc content in their diet, and this is always the
nutrient I have a hard time squeezing enough of in the diet, because
i do feed mostly chicken.
On the subject of chicken, I know its contrary to what we've
always heard, but sometimes trimming most of the fat does help bring
down the Omega 6 content and helps balance out the ratio of Omega 3:6
fatty acids. In turn, instead of giving poor coats, trimming the fat
off chicken helps IMPROVE coat and alleviate itching. Wolves in the
wild do not have the luxury of consuming fatty prey. Rather, most of
what they catch are extremely lean, because no wild animal will be as
overfed and inactive as chickens being fed for slaughter. I have also
noticed that some of my black dogs took on a reddish tint with too
much chicken fat in their diet, so trimming the fat also has
eliminated that problem as well. You are better off giving lamb for
fatty content, since it contains so much zinc and less Omega 6 as
chicken.

Noelle M.

Messages in this topic (22)
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2b. 911-PLEASE HELP
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 11:27 am ((PDT))


I have a frenchie puppy-11 weeks that has been eating raw for two weeks now.? She choked this morning on her usual chicken breast!? I heard is in her crate, and she was BLUE!? She could not get any air.? I stuck my finger in her mouth and down her throat.? I was able to feel the tip of a bone, but I could not get it.? I got in the car and ran to the vet, she was NOT getting much air at all...I did not think she would make it to the vet.?
I am new to this area, and I do not know this vet at all.? I went to the nearest place.? He stabilized her and took x-rays immediately.? There is nothing odd in the x-ray, no blockage now, but her little throat(remember this is a frenchie) was so swollen and irritated that she was choking on all the saliva.? She is on O2 and IV's and is doing well, she is calm and though she is still having a hard time breathing, it is not because she has a blocked airway.? NOW, the vet tells me he needs to open her up and take out whatever is in her stomach!? That sound slike a disaster to me, all the secondary infections of opening a gutt!
Does anyone have any advice?? If she got the bone down, will it digest...PLEASE HELP ME!


__,_._I

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


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Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

First off, I'm glad your dog is doing better, I'm sorry that you guys
had the scare. If she was eating bone in chicken breast I see no
reason why the bone wouldn't digest fine in her stomach, breast bones
are about the softest in the chicken. If there is no problem seen
from the x-ray I don't see a reason to chance surgery. I hope the
pup feels better and I hope the vet gives you a reason for surgery
other than she won't digest the bone (because I can't see that being
true). Please, keep us updated.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
>
> I have a frenchie puppy-11 weeks that has been eating raw for two
weeks now.? She choked this morning on her usual chicken breast!? I
heard is in her crate, and she was BLUE!? She could not get any air.?
I stuck my finger in her mouth and down her throat.? I was able to
feel the tip of a bone, but I could not get it.? I got in the car and
ran to the vet, she was NOT getting much air at all...I did not think
she would make it to the vet.?
> I am new to this area, and I do not know this vet at all.? I went
to the nearest place.? He stabilized her and took x-rays
immediately.? There is nothing odd in the x-ray, no blockage now, but
her little throat(remember this is a frenchie) was so swollen and
irritated that she was choking on all the saliva.? She is on O2 and
IV's and is doing well, she is calm and though she is still having a
hard time breathing, it is not because she has a blocked airway.?
NOW, the vet tells me he needs to open her up and take out whatever
is in her stomach!? That sound slike a disaster to me, all the
secondary infections of opening a gutt!
> Does anyone have any advice?? If she got the bone down, will it
digest...PLEASE HELP ME!
>
>
>
>
> __,_._I
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL
Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

I would certainly wait and see if it passes naturally before doing any
surgery! It might not turn out to be an obstruction; then your poor
little pup will have to recover from surgery on top of everything else.
Please keep us posted.
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (22)
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2e. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 11:50 am ((PDT))

Of course the bone will digest. Do not let the vet do surgery!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <Doguefan@aol.com>

> I am new to this area, and I do not know this vet at all.? I went to the
nearest place.? He stabilized her and took x-rays immediately.? There is
nothing odd in the x-ray, no blockage now, but her little throat(remember
this is a frenchie) was so swollen and irritated that she was choking on all
the saliva.? She is on O2 and IV's and is doing well, she is calm and though
she is still having a hard time breathing, it is not because she has a
blocked airway.? NOW, the vet tells me he needs to open her up and take out
whatever is in her stomach!? That sound slike a disaster to me, all the
secondary infections of opening a gutt!
> Does anyone have any advice?? If she got the bone down, will it
digest...PLEASE HELP ME!

Messages in this topic (22)
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2f. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:16 pm ((PDT))

Doguefan@... wrote:
There is nothing odd in the x-ray, no blockage now, but her little
throat(remember this is a frenchie) was so swollen and irritated that
she was choking on all the saliva.?
*****
That will heal with time. I suspect the vet may want to give her
some abx because that's what vets do, but soft food and room
temperature water should get down okay. Maybe even a bit of broth.
You might also feed her several small meals until the inflammation
goes away.


NOW, the vet tells me he needs to open her up and take out whatever
is in her stomach!?
*****
Why don't you ask the vet? Doesn't sound like anything has been
determined. If there's no reason to cut her open, then she should
not be cut open! Dogs, even young small breeds, have the ability to
digest chicken bones. Unless there is significant indication that
something else is in there, I can't see a justification for abdominal
surgery.'

Please let us know how this resolves.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (22)
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2g. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:26 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***


Thank you...God they make you feel like you had better do it or she will die right now!? I knew better, My big dogs eat huge bones but they are 165 lb DDB.? They digest everything.? And the puppy has been doing so well, I was just starting to introduce new meats to her, now I am surely PARANOID!
I told them to wait on the surgery.? They are giving decadron and IV antibiotics, because of the irritated throat and asophagus(sp?).
Pray for the little thing!
Chelsea


-----Original Message-----
From: Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:50 am
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] 911-PLEASE HELP


Of course the bone will digest. Do not let the vet do surgery!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <Doguefan@aol.com>

> I am new to this area, and I do not know this vet at all.? I went to the
nearest place.? He stabilized her and took x-rays immediately.? There is
nothing odd in the x-ray, no blockage now, but her little throat(remember
this is a frenchie) was so swollen and irritated that she was choking on all
the saliva.? She is on O2 and IV's and is doing well, she is calm and though
she is still having a hard time breathing, it is not because she has a
blocked airway.? NOW, the vet tells me he needs to open her up and take out
whatever is in her stomach!? That sound slike a disaster to me, all the
secondary infections of opening a gutt!
> Does anyone have any advice?? If she got the bone down, will it
digest...PLEASE HELP ME!

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________

2h. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
Posted by: "shane clays" shane_clays@yahoo.com shane_clays
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***


Did the vet say why he needed to do surgery? Does the vet know that it is an uncooked chicken bone? Did you explain to the vet (this may be a good time??) that the dog is on a raw food diet and has been succesfully digesting raw chicken bones for the last couple weeks?

I know this is very stressful to you right now and I am sorry to hear this happened, however, try and take a deep breath and think through the situation... If it were me, I would leave the dog there for observation and have her monitored, but would NOT do surgery unless there is a varifiable reason beyond getting the chicken bone out. After 2 weeks, she should have enough acids to break that down as she usually does.

Good luck and keep us posted....

Shane Clays
Phx, AZ

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
NOW, the vet tells me he needs to open her up and take out
whatever is in her stomach!? That sound slike a disaster to me, all the
secondary infections of opening a gutt!
> Does anyone have any advice?? If she got the bone down, will it
digest...PLEASE HELP ME!

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All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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Messages in this topic (22)
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2i. Re: 911-PLEASE HELP
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
>
> NOW, the vet tells me he needs to open her up and take
> out whatever is in her stomach!? That sound slike a disaster
> to me, all the secondary infections of opening a gutt!
> Does anyone have any advice?? If she got the bone down, will
> it digest...PLEASE HELP ME!

Do NOT do the surgery ... IT WILL DIGEST.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (22)
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3a. Re: A few problems with raw diet
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:34 am ((PDT))

> The only reason I did all that grinding is because I read it in a
> book, and because it simulated the contents of the prey's stomach.

Yeah, there are a bunch of books out there that insist that dogs eat
the contents of their prey's stomach. That might be true with small
animals like rabbits where the animal is more of a crunch crunch done
thing, but with bigger animals they will most often open up the
stomach and shake the contents out.

> would I be looking for animal organs that still contained the
> stomach contents before it was killed? Or are you just talking about
> organs like heart, liver, kidneys and that stuff?

Just plain organs. There are some places that offer green tripe (raw
stomach material of usually cows) that dogs really like. It can be
pretty expensive to get depending on where you live, but that is
about as close as you need to get to buying stomach contents. Not
that green tripe is necessary, just another fun (and smelly) thing to
offer.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: {raw feeding} Link for Graigs list
Posted by: "keishay79" keishay79@yahoo.com keishay79
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:35 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> I think you want Craig's list
> http://www.craigslist.org
>
> Andrea
>
I just put an ad up this morning.So far I have gotten one reply,
However they are nearly 2hrs from me. If anyone on here lives in or
near Lincolnton, NC and wants about 20+lbs of deer. Let me know, I can
put you in contact with the lady.

Keisha

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: runns in house & gagging
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:37 am ((PDT))

Ok, I think the loose stool (it was dark in color, right?) was a result
of liver and heart being introduced at the same time as well as the
beef rib (I assume it had some meat on it). I don't think you have any
big problems, but you'll want to hold off on beef ribs until the pups
are more accustomed to the diet. Also, you should give whole slabs of
ribs instead of singletons when you get around to it. It's probably
good that she skipped breakfast, next meal it would be good to give
something easy and meaty like chicken breast quarter. Since liver and
heart can both cause loose stools it's best to introduce them in
seperate meals from now on.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Not bile, clear fluid with some brown tint here & there.
> Beef spare rib & only one each for some chewing & intro to beef
> slowly. She ate her dinner after that (a few hours)
> Before the watery poo she had eaten her regular chicken with a wee
> amount of liver & a small heart (probably about 4 hours before)

Messages in this topic (9)
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5b. Re: runns in house & gagging
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Trina!
Beef bones are the densest bones, and the hardest to digest.
My Bea is a Newfy, and 130 lbs - she pretty much has a cast iron
digestion. But, if she horks, its usually beef bone bits. Therefor, I
don't feed her beef bone. I make sure that the beef she gets is heart,
or boneless roast (I remove any bone) or if I feed beef ribs, its a
slab of them, and I take them up when she's done flossing.
Slippery Elm Bark Powder can help soothe an irritated gut, and help a
new-to-raw dog over digestive issues related to adjustment to raw, or
over enthusiastic new-to-raw owners feeding too much or to much new
when introducing new proteins and organs. It won't firm loose stools,
but it reduces inflammation and irritation and coats the intestines
with mucous.
From my recommendations;
****15. SEBP - Slippery Elm Bark Powder. This is a good innocuous herb
that soothes the stomach and digestive system. If you feel you need to
intervene when your dog has loose poops or constipation, this is the
way to go. SEBP is “used to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis,
colitis & irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect &
lubricate mucous membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of
kennel cough & other types of bronchitis.”
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. For small dogs, divide in ½ ounce meatballs,
for large to giant dogs, 1 ounce meatballs. Feed 1 with each meal. Or,
fast for a day, (not for pups, fast for just a meal or two) offer
plenty of water or low sodium broth. Feed SEBP meatballs 3-4 times
throughout the day. Feed smaller, more frequent meals for several days
after, gradually increasing the meals and decreasing the SEBP
meatballs. You will often see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP,
this is part of the way it soothes the digestive system, and the dog’s
body will do the same sometimes even without SEBP. ****

The hacking may be because her throat has been scraped with a sharp
piece of bone while eating. This can cause coughing or gagging, or
even vomiting. There are often large chunks of cut bone at the end of
a beef rib, so if she swallowed a hunk, that might account for the
problems.
TC
Giselle


> Not bile, clear fluid with some brown tint here & there.
> Beef spare rib & only one each for some chewing & intro to beef slowly.
> She ate her dinner after that (a few hours)
> Before the watery poo she had eaten her regular chicken with a wee
amount of
> liver & a small heart (probably about 4 hours before)
> She ate on schedule but maybe a bit more than usual at dinner? She
is a 4
> month old puppy.
>
> She refused to eat this morning & still hacking really bad but full of
> energy.
> I hope we don't have a serious issue, this is real discouraging.
> Trina


Messages in this topic (9)
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6. FREECYCLE (was: Cheap meat)
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:37 am ((PDT))

Can anyone tell me what to write to this list to look for meats?
We seem to have a very active one on the island I live on. :-)
Trina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Partial success with my "starving" dog
Posted by: "qsgirl916" qsgirl916@yahoo.com qsgirl916
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:40 am ((PDT))

Well, with all your encouragement, I stayed strong!

Friday and Saturday, Fern was still snubbing the raw food. Despite the
fact that by Saturday night she was begging for food, she still ignored
the chicken when I put it down.

Last night, I tried searing the chicken. She was super excited when I
carried her food out to her, and she licked the chicken like crazy.
When all was said and done, she ate half of it.

I'm pretty pleased with that, and I'm hoping that tonight will be at
least as successful.

Thanks for encouraging me to stay strong!

I'll let you know how it goes tonight!

Sarah

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Partial success with my "starving" dog
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 11:28 am ((PDT))

That's great, Sarah! Hopefully she'll continue being enthusiastic
about the food and you can slowly start searing less and less each
time. I think for the most part people who had to use bribes like
searing and parmesan cheese don't have to use them for too long before
the dog is fine eating food as is. Hope you gave Fern lots and lots of
praise and had a good party for yourself. Good job!

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "qsgirl916" <qsgirl916@...> wrote:

> Last night, I tried searing the chicken. She was super excited when
> I carried her food out to her, and she licked the chicken like
> crazy. When all was said and done, she ate half of it.

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Largemouth Bass Heads and Misc. ?'s
Posted by: "larsen_biology" larsen_biology@yahoo.com larsen_biology
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 10:59 am ((PDT))


My husband went to a very rural lake and caught a limit of largemouth
bass. This time he brought them home packed on ice and waited
approximately 24 hours to clean them.

I kept the heads and tossed them in the chest freezer for the dogs-
two of which will eat fish, one of which just wants to roll in it!
Picky little thing that she is! How long should the bass heads be
frozen before being considered safe to eat?

While we were cleaning the fish the dogs ate a few small pieces of
the meat and liver that dropped... Since these small parts hadn't
been frozen should I be concerned about the dogs getting any
parasites?

Also, is there any reason not to feed Sacramento Pike Minnow?
Apparently this lake is swarming with them- some are very large. My
DH has offered to save them for the dogs if they are an acceptable
protein source.

Thanks for you help,
Heather & the labradors

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Largemouth Bass Heads and Misc. ?'s
Posted by: "k9dine" k9dine@yahoo.com k9dine
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:24 pm ((PDT))

I don't know exactly where you are/the fish-source lake is, but in my
state (Wisconsin) there is information on the Department of Natural
Resources page on known contaminant levels in various lakes in the
state, and which contaminant levels are high where. In the off-
chance you were in California I did a google search for "california
lake contamination" (without quotes) and the 6th link was

http://www.oehha.ca.gov/fish/general/99fish.html - the Office of
Environmental Health Hazard Assessment website that listed
information on the eating of fish and which parts are less healthy
than others, as well as a link to Site-Specific Advisory
Information. That kind of information can let you know about lead,
mercury, and other heavy metal and organic toxin levels in various
lakes if the lakes have been tested (and being "very rural" doesn't
mean uncontaminated - some areas may have high levels of arsenic or
lead or whatever else in the soil naturally).

In general, the larger the fish (the higher in the food chain) the
greater concentration of contaminants like lead, mercury, arsenic,
organophosphates, etc., so the suggestions given for people will
likely be true for pets. Don't eat/feed too much fish from lakes
that have more contaminants and maybe restrict the consumption of
livers and fatty tissue for larger fish since those portions may have
higher levels of chemicals that may be toxic in large amounts.

I know that salmonid fish (salmon and trout) carry some seriously
nasty tapeworms that you can get from eating them raw (dozens of feet
long in a human digestive tract when adult! gross!) so I would be
wary of feeding them unfrozen, but I do not know about bass
specifically. Maybe others here will know more. And I've never
heard of the other fish type you mentioned....

Amanda

Messages in this topic (2)
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9. Shedding on raw
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 11:28 am ((PDT))

Someone posted some info sometiem back about the shedding cycles of
dogs on raw...

Can someone help me with that. I tried searching and can't find it.

My dogs are shedding liek the dickens now. My rat terrier is about
8mos and my AmBull is about 3yrs but has been on raw for only 2mos. i
know it's not time for them to change coats as it's not even cold
down here yet and there is no increased shedding from my Scottie.

Anyone have any idea what's going on and what I can do to help
alleviate it? I do give them fish oils in (as per the dosages
recommended here) their diet 2-3 times a week.
Thanks for the help!

Kae

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Prepared Raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 11:55 am ((PDT))

There's nothing to prepare...buy a chicken, cut into serving sized portions,
hand to dog! Then go on to another protein. Easy!!

Prepared raw diets are not without problems. Not only is ground
inappropriate, they include unnecessary, inappropriate ingredients over
which you have no control, and there was a recall on Bravo raw just a week
or so ago.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Dcaloosa" <Dcaloosa@aol.com>

I am transitioning to raw for my Rotties and am happy with the results
so far, but as yet have not taken the plunge into preparing it
myself.....due to many reasons that may be resolved someday.....like
work, freezer space, etc......but anyway, does anyone have experience
using the top quality prepared raw diets, like Halshan, Bravo, etc? I
am experimenting with them. Please feel free to bombard me with info!

Messages in this topic (6)
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10b. Re: Prepared Raw
Posted by: "raffiangel2" snazgal@aol.com raffiangel2
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT))

****MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM AND SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "Dcaloosa" <Dcaloosa@> wrote:
> does anyone have experience
> > using the top quality prepared raw diets, like Halshan, Bravo, etc?
I
> > am experimenting with them. Please feel free to bombard me with
info!
> *****
> This list neither recommends or supports commercial prefab food. You
> can take your question to RawChat or private: it is off topic for the
> rawfeeding list and further posts will be redirected.
> Chris O
> Moderation Team
>
I tried it for a while before rescuing my second golden...had way too
many veggies, fruits and 'stuff' in it that I had no control over..and
price wise it was rediculous...for way less money I could and did get
the best cuts of meat and several months supply of great meaty bones...
Raw is so darn easy...my girls see the towels coming out and get
nuts...down goes their bowls, dinner is over in less then 10 minutes.
lThrow towels in washer...done.
RELAX...don't make it more then it is...there is no rocket science to
this...Follow your moderators advice and enjoy the shopping 'game' and
the 'crunch' game....

Messages in this topic (6)
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11.1. Re: New to raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 12:15 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Uh, Teri!
Welcome to the raw side! ^_^
My recommendations includes The Lis List, a creative compilation of
ways to source raw, cheaply or for free. You might want to print out
all the suggestions, and highlight those you want to focus on first.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374

These websites are helpful also;
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

Tc and let us know if you have any other Qs!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I am getting ready to start my 9 month old Bouvier on raw. Can any one
> give me some advice on the best and most economical way/places to buy
> meat. I do have a very large deep freezer for storage.
>


Messages in this topic (43)
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________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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