Feed Pets Raw Food: Nov 27, 2007

Tuesday, November 27, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12325

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Pork Neck Bones
From: ncrnrgrl
1.2. Re: Pork Neck Bones
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Re: How to get started?
From: imperial_bloodlines

4a. 3 week old puppies
From: ELLEN DIX
4b. Re: 3 week old puppies
From: Caren OConnor

5a. Re: how much to feed a 4lb chihuahua?
From: mozookpr

6a. Re: My introduction:
From: mozookpr
6b. Re: My introduction:
From: Ian Flanagan
6c. Re: My introduction:
From: Ian Flanagan
6d. Re: My introduction:
From: costrowski75
6e. Re: My introduction:
From: Sandee Lee
6f. Re: My introduction:
From: Ian Flanagan
6g. Re: My introduction:
From: Sandee Lee
6h. Re: My introduction:
From: merril Woolf

7a. Re: Whole Mackeral
From: imperial_bloodlines

8a. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
From: Casey Post
8b. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
From: Pundah

9a. Re: Salmon Oil/How much???
From: Cheryl Younesi

10a. Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
From: Cheryl Younesi

11a. Vomiting after meals
From: sphynxlover2
11b. Re: Vomiting after meals
From: ginny wilken

12. Dave Mech and his wolves
From: Sai Simonson

13a. Re: more on turkey wings and reply to Chris
From: Michelle R

14. Beef Heart? and other meats :)
From: redangelbordeaux

Messages
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1.1. Re: Pork Neck Bones
Posted by: "ncrnrgrl" jcraver1@nc.rr.com ncrnrgrl
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:22 pm ((PST))

I've been feeding neck bones this size or a little large to my two
GSD's for some time as well, and in fact, just picked up about 3 more
pounds... Chris' response now has me a little freaked out.
Gah!

Jen C.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Hackley <twodobemom@...>
wrote:
>
> I would. Given that my dobes are about the same size
> as your pups, I'd actually say that their a bit on the
> small size, but that's just my opinion. I prefer my
> neck bones to be a bit bigger.
>
> Elizabeth Hackley, Flicka, Gunther Guinness with Loki & Max
(waiting at the bridge)
>
>
>
>
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> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>

Messages in this topic (28)
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1.2. Re: Pork Neck Bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:06 pm ((PST))

"ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
>
> I've been feeding neck bones this size or a little large to my two
> GSD's for some time as well, and in fact, just picked up about 3
more
> pounds... Chris' response now has me a little freaked out.
*****
Hey, you can feed whatever you want to your dogs, it's cool. I don't
feed small bones to my retrievers. Those cut up pork necks freaked
me out the first time I offered them to my first rawfed dog, a golden
with no particular gulping tendencies. I fed one of those bones to
my golden bitch when she was four months old and knock wood it's the
only choking incident I've had to deal with.

My retrievers (heck, even the border collie) are fully capable of
swallowing hunks of anything the size of a playing card. Since bones
this size offer no dental or mental hygiene or physical workout, I
don't feed them.

For me, it's a win-win decision.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (28)
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2a. Re: Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:24 pm ((PST))

But he needs the good stuff also. :) If he is really overweight, better to
cut down on amount of food, increase exercise, check for hypothyroidism,
etc. before removing skin and fat which are a necessary part of the diet.
He doesn't need the knuckle bones which are a tooth disaster waiting to
happen...and unless you are scraping all of the marrow out, he is getting a
bunch of extra food there.

And I'd replace some of those high bone poultry items with red meat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sai Simonson" <saiczarina@comcast.net>
> Have interesting thing to relate. Took Lexi (100+ lb Borzoi) to the vet
> scale today as he had been "telling" me he was starving and please give
> him an extra chicken thigh or two. He weighed in at 108 which is
> starting to concern me. I have removed all skin from the thighs. Now
> he gets the smaller turkey neck and the beef knuckle bone without the
> fat. His companion is only 62 lb female Borzoi so she gets the better
> stuff now. Lexi has gained 10 pounds since July on the all raw diet. Oh
> what to do??? :-)

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: How to get started?
Posted by: "imperial_bloodlines" imperial_bloodlines@yahoo.com imperial_bloodlines
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:33 pm ((PST))

Hi Leah!

I'm going to agree and say go with regular bone-in chicken and see how
the boy does with it. I have pit bulls myself and their jaw strength
alone can crunch up bones pretty good.

My 14 year old toothless guy used to have 1/2 chickens no problem and
it did wonders for the condition of his gums which had gone blotchy
and gray from lack of stimulation.

He shouldn't have an issue with any organ meats and for some variety
you can throw in ground beef or pork or better yet a shoulder roast!

Add eggs and fish which are VERY soft...my girls love milk fish and
salmon heads! Don't count him out until he's given it a shot!

Good luck and let us know how he does!

Jolene

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "iheartlabs" <iheartlabs@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm new to the group and am curious how to start raw feeding. I
> recently adopted a toothless pit bull
> Leah
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. 3 week old puppies
Posted by: "ELLEN DIX" ellileeah22@verizon.net ellileeah
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:48 pm ((PST))

Geri, will you please tell me how to start my 3 week old SCWTerrier pups. I have in the past used oats, barley, rice with raw goat's milk. Now, tell me the RIGHT WAY to start these puppies. Mom has been eating raw all of her 5 years, with gusto!
Thanks, Ellen Dix

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Geri" <CapeWindMastiff@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tommy,
>
> YOU may have only been feeding Caesar raw since 12 weeks, HE started
> with raw at 3 weeks with me, out of generations of rawfed dogs:-)
> Check your private email for advice of how to get my grandbaby
> switched over to what you normally feed.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: 3 week old puppies
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:19 pm ((PST))

Ellen -
I don't have SCWTs, but do have CKCS pups which I weaned to raw from their mother at about 4-5 weeks.
I began with ground meats, rabbit, chicken, mutton, with which I mixed a milk supplement (Nature's Farmacy, I think). From there I went with chicken necks and small portions of duck, pork, beef, fish, etc. But, I began with ground as my breed is small with small mouths:) It worked beautifully and they are now devouring 4.5 oz. portions of solid raw, and as healthy as little pups can be:)
Good luck to you with your little guys:)
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

ELLEN DIX <ellileeah22@verizon.net> wrote:
Geri, will you please tell me how to start my 3 week old SCWTerrier pups. I have in the past used oats, barley, rice with raw goat's milk. Now, tell me the RIGHT WAY to start these puppies. Mom has been eating raw all of her 5 years, with gusto!
Thanks, Ellen Dix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: how much to feed a 4lb chihuahua?
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tamarabajema" <tamarabajema@...>
wrote:
>
> i would like to start feeding a raw diet. i understand that the
amount
> of food should be 2% of his body weight. But at 4lbs that is hardly
> anything.

A dog this size might do well with quail, if you can get them.
Pricey for most, but for a Chihuahua, it should be affordable,
especially if this is your only dog. Or, if you want to go whole hog
(or make that whole prey) see if you can get frozen baby chicks from
a reptile supplier. If you can bear it, the same supplier might have
pinkie rabbits, which should also be good. I would love to feed my
dogs whole prey, but with two dogs and six cats, it is just not
possible on my (lack of) income.

Good luck, keep us posted!

Wendy, Sophie and Foxy

Messages in this topic (8)
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6a. Re: My introduction:
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:19 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Ian,
>
> About time you get that pup switched over to real food! :))
>

Don't wait, it is easier to switch a puppy than an adult who has had
time to get hooked on kibble. Shouldn't be an issue with labs, who
have been known to eat anything (including socks, tin cans, and
rocks....) but why wait? Let 'em learn early! I have literally just
made the change, and my Sheltie pup, Sophie, has taken to it like she
was just waiting for me to wise up. Foxy, my five year Pomeranian,
is a bit less enthusiastic: he eats the food, but also mopes around
the kitchen looking for kibble. No reason to encourage that bad
habit.

If they are weaned, they are ready for meat.

Hang in there, and give that pup a meaty bone!

Wendy, Foxy, and Sophie

Messages in this topic (10)
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6b. Re: My introduction:
Posted by: "Ian Flanagan" oddariesofthe7th@yahoo.com oddariesofthe7th
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:12 pm ((PST))

Hey Sandra,

Chimay, the puppy (7 months), is currently weening off of Solid Gold Wolfcub, and on to Innova evo. with the other 2 I went from Solid Gold, to Innova Large Breed Puppy, then to evo. meh...I figured I'd skip a step. The reason is, for the longest time I bought into the crap that you must keep your puppy on the same kibble for atleast 2.5 years, however as I study more and more, it doesnt matter and is better to be on raw. I live to switch to evo because its a grain free, and prepares them for the upcoming diet. Which at first is paw naturaw (better quality than bravo), that phase is only for a few weeks as the body adjusts to the raw state. from there she joins the other 2 who get raw meats from local organic livestock raisers (bah to store bought BAH!), as well as their eggs, yogurt, and veggies. (i know most of you are probably anti-veggie but....imop, i have found that fresh organic locally grown pureed veggies have helped with my black labs allergies, enormously)

Ian.

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Messages in this topic (10)
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6c. Re: My introduction:
Posted by: "Ian Flanagan" oddariesofthe7th@yahoo.com oddariesofthe7th
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:12 pm ((PST))

Hey Wendy, Foxy, and Sophie,

I was originally waiting as I use to buy into the crap that breeders and vets tell their clients, keep the pup on the food until 2.5 years. Meh. my 2 other labs I weened them from Solid Gold Wolfcub to Innova Large Breed Pup, to Innova evo, and to Bravo (before I found paw naturaw), then on to there 100% home made diet. Chimay, the pup, is skipping the step and going on to evo, then onto paw naturaw, then onto the home made. I like to have them go with evo first as I've found it to be a good exiting dry food, and as paw naturaw is a good started for raw diets, which prepares her for the home made...usually a few weeks on paw naturaw while she weens onto pure home made.

heh, no with labs, switching foods is no problem at all! socks, tin cans, tree branches, tables, glaciers..whatever life throws at them, they'll eat it..or attempt to. lol

Ian

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Messages in this topic (10)
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6d. Re: My introduction:
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:56 pm ((PST))

Ian Flanagan <oddariesofthe7th@...> wrote:
I honestly didn't want to take her off the kibble until she was a lil
older. Now going on 7 months I feel its time. As I did with my other 2.
Normally I ween them from the solid gold wolfcub, to innova large breed
puppy kibble, to innova evo, then to bravo/paw naturaw pre made raw,
then to home made raw.
*****
Well, all of us make mistakes.
Not trusting a species appropriate diet is one of the mistakes many
people make; thinking it's beneficial to gently transition from doom
nuggets to raw is another.

My first weaned-to-raw pup is now 13 months old. What a joy and a
treasure she was to feed whole raw food to, at eight weeks. You are
indeed selling both raw food and your dogs short.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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6e. Re: My introduction:
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:40 pm ((PST))

Hey Ian,

Well, now that you know better, just switch to real raw and skip all those
steps. :) Kibble is never appropriate and your dogs certainly don't need
all those phases!! They don't need any preparation...they are carnivores!
:)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ian Flanagan" <oddariesofthe7th@yahoo.com>
>
> Chimay, the puppy (7 months), is currently weening off of Solid Gold
Wolfcub, and on to Innova evo. with the other 2 I went from Solid Gold, to
Innova Large Breed Puppy, then to evo. meh...I figured I'd skip a step. The
reason is, for the longest time I bought into the crap that you must keep
your puppy on the same kibble for atleast 2.5 years, however as I study more
and more, it doesnt matter and is better to be on raw. I live to switch to
evo because its a grain free, and prepares them for the upcoming diet. Which
at first is paw naturaw (better quality than bravo), that phase is only for
a few weeks as the body adjusts to the raw state. from there she joins the
other 2 who get raw meats from local organic livestock raisers (bah to store
bought BAH!), as well as their eggs, yogurt, and veggies. (i know most of
you are probably anti-veggie but....imop, i have found that fresh organic
locally grown pureed veggies have helped with my black labs allergies,
enormously)

Messages in this topic (10)
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6f. Re: My introduction:
Posted by: "Ian Flanagan" oddariesofthe7th@yahoo.com oddariesofthe7th
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:06 pm ((PST))

Hey Sandee

I've experienced skipping all the steps with my oldest Nellie, to me that was one of the worse things I could do. She really didn't get sick, just the body was not use to it. She pretty much had the runs for a bit, I ended up putting her back on the kibble due to fear. From there I slowly introduced her back onto the raw diet. With Saranac I followed the same transition, I did not have any problems. Chimay will be on the raw soon, 2 months at most. probably not even.

Ian

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Messages in this topic (10)
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6g. Re: My introduction:
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:41 pm ((PST))

Hi Ian,

The runs aren't necessarily part of switching "cold turkey"...but soft
stools really are no big deal. We can help you with that!

Two months, two weeks, two days is too long to be feeding inappropriate food
to your little carnivore! :) Don't let fear motivate you!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ian Flanagan" <oddariesofthe7th@yahoo.com>
> I've experienced skipping all the steps with my oldest Nellie, to me that
was one of the worse things I could do. She really didn't get sick, just the
body was not use to it. She pretty much had the runs for a bit, I ended up
putting her back on the kibble due to fear. From there I slowly introduced
her back onto the raw diet. With Saranac I followed the same transition, I
did not have any problems. Chimay will be on the raw soon, 2 months at most.
probably not even.

Messages in this topic (10)
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6h. Re: My introduction:
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:16 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ian Flanagan <oddariesofthe7th@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Sandra,
>
> Chimay, the puppy (7 months), is currently weening off of Solid Gold Wolfcub, and on to
Innova evo. with the other 2 I went from Solid Gold, to Innova Large Breed Puppy, then to
evo. meh...I figured I'd skip a step. The reason is, for the longest time I bought into the
crap that you must keep your puppy on the same kibble for atleast 2.5 years, however as I
study more and more, it doesnt matter and is better to be on raw. I live to switch to evo
because its a grain free, and prepares them for the upcoming diet. Which at first is paw
naturaw (better quality than bravo), that phase is only for a few weeks as the body adjusts
to the raw state. from there she joins the other 2 who get raw meats from local organic
livestock raisers (bah to store bought BAH!), as well as their eggs, yogurt, and veggies. (i
know most of you are probably anti-veggie but....imop, i have found that fresh organic
locally grown pureed veggies have helped with my black labs allergies, enormously)
>
>
> Ian.

You need to get off that merry-go round you have with kibble. Evo, solid gold or
whatever is still kibble and if you want a long-lived dog with minimal health problems into
it's teen years, the sooner you put him on a NON-processed diet, the better.

I have raised many many raw fed pups from raw fed dams and they have never had a
single piece of kibble in their lives. I have always thought the best way to raise children
and pets is with the freshest ingredients you can find. Nothing processed ever and
especially nothing inappropriate for the species.

I'm not sure how you figure that raw food is good for adults but not appropriate for pups.
Guess that goes along with feeding kids McDonalds and all those sugary cereals until they
are adults then telling them to eat healthy.
It's too late by then and much of the damage is already done.
Good nutrition starts before they are born and continues until they die of old age.

Please get that pup on the proper food right away and throw away the junk food. Time
for you to rethink the junk food for pups diet. It's not fair for the pup. My mind is still
trying to grasp your reasoning. The easiest dogs to transition to raw are pups, btw
because they are not already conditioned to only eat one brand of processed food day in
an day out for years upon years. Their digestive system is ready and willing to take on
whatever is on the menu.
My pups start raw at about 4-5 weeks and they get a wide variety of foods from day one.
No meal is ever the same for them. Never had a problem yet and don't anticipate any.

Merril
All raw all the time

Messages in this topic (10)
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7a. Re: Whole Mackeral
Posted by: "imperial_bloodlines" imperial_bloodlines@yahoo.com imperial_bloodlines
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:19 pm ((PST))

Any and all fish are fair game for my dogs; big favorites here are Red
snapper, salmon and milk fish.

Whole, heads, tails....frozen or fresh, haven't had one get turned
down yet. Though they will play with them for a while and try to
"kill" them

*smile*

Incidentally as we have open water Snapper and Grouper farms
throughout the Caribbean, have no issues with these ever being on any
"endangered list" and they're always available and relatively cheap.

>>>>>>>>>>
> Some dogs like fish, some don't; some fish is more likeable than other
> fish. If you are looking to feed fish for Omega 3, buy salmon, trout,
> sardines, herring, anchovies, mackerel and other dark-fleshed, oily
> fish from cold marine water. Warm water fish generally do not offer
> Omega 3. Farmed fish offer less Omega 3 than wild caught fish.
> Chilean salmon are arguably the most healthy; Chilean seabass isn't sea
> bass and is on the endangered list. So is Orange Roughy and real Red
> Snapper. Oh, grouper I think is also endangered now.
>
> Oy. Fish, to me, is hardly worth the effort. I think you should just
> try some and see what happens.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:30 pm ((PST))

> Raw is fine, but the challenge there becomes giving enough calories
> without overloading phosphorus.

Well, I've done the renal failure thing (actually, doing it right now, too)
and I haven't found a problem getting in enough calories. Fat is generally
low in phos and high in calories and it can help with constipation, which is
an issue with some animals in renal failure.

Casey

Messages in this topic (6)
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8b. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
Posted by: "Pundah" Pundah@comcast.net backpocketfarm
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:48 pm ((PST))

Thanks everyone for the tips. Yes, Sandee - we ran blood work in August. Long story. After we lost our Dane Reb in July, I was frightened and paranoid and told their regular vet to do full work ups. They did blood panels only and I was ignorant about urinalysis. Still feeling uneasy I interviewed more vets and this one wanted the urinalysis as well. I will definitely check out these other resources. Thank you all!

Tammy - Charleston, SC

----- Original Message -----
From: Sandee Lee
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease

Hi Tammy,

One of the most detrimental things you can do in dealing with a dog with
kidney disease is feed one of those low protein prescription diets. The
kidneys (and all other organs) require good quality, high moisture, easy to
digest, bioavailable protein which of course is raw. Depending on the
results you get, you may have to tweak the diet by reducing phosphorus, but
decreasing protein will do more harm than good. You definitely need more
than a urinalysis...did they not run any bloodwork?

We have discussed this a lot...did you look up renal disease or kidney
disease?

Here is some info about protein and kidneys....

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/114796

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Pundah" <Pundah@comcast.net>
>
> We have a Pointer mix, Cody, who will be 11 on Dec 1. He has always had
some food allergies, not horrific, but gives him runny eyes all the time and
occasional ear infections. The main issue now is that he is being diagnosed
as pre- or -early kidney disease. So I've read about the recommended Rx
kidney diet but am not crazy about all the corn in it. We have more tests
to run (the initial diagnosis based solely on urinalysis and I think more is
needed) and I've made out my list of questions. We see the regular vet on
Weds then an ultrasound next Tuesday. My main question regarding Cody is -
I've read from other raw supporters that there can be times when the raw
diet is contraindicated, such as when an illness already exists. On the
other hand, I've read many cases where the diet helped the illness. I've
tried searching the archived messages but dont a specific reply, tho I may
have missed it. I certainly dont want to make him worse, and admit to being
a bit hypersensitive as we lost our 7-yr old Danein July.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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9a. Re: Salmon Oil/How much???
Posted by: "Cheryl Younesi" CYounesi@mac.com cyounesi
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:54 pm ((PST))

I give my 3 pounder, one drop of salmon oil 2 times a day. My 6 pounder
gets a little larger drop 2 times a day. That's what was recommended;
well 1-1 1/2 drops per 12.5 pounds of dog. It's Grizzly Salmon Oil.
Cheryl

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10a. Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
Posted by: "Cheryl Younesi" CYounesi@mac.com cyounesi
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:12 pm ((PST))

I have a 3 pounder and a 6 pounder and they do just fine with duck
necks (more of a snack since there's not much meat) duck feet (also a
snack) chicken wings are a fav of theirs. They eat beef, buffalo,
turkey and chicken also, but I've never given gizzards even though mine
aren't gulpers. I'd be afraid they'd try to swallow them whole.
Cheryl

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11a. Vomiting after meals
Posted by: "sphynxlover2" AST42701@aol.com sphynxlover2
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

Hello all,
I've held off on posting about this problem because I really thought
it was nothing, but now it's continued and I'm becoming concerned, so
here I am. Anyway, my 6 year old AmStaff has been on raw for 6
months now, and in the last week he's begun to vomit up his entire
meal after every feeding. He typically gets anywhere from 1 pound to
1 3/4 pound per meal, depending on a variety of factors. He is a
self-regulator and it doesn't bother me because he maintains a good
weight that way. He eats only once a day, anywhere between 5 and 9
pm. He usually gets a small "snack" of something in the morning
before I leave for work.

The problem began when we came home from a camping trip last
weekend. He didn't eat much at all during that trip, but that's not
abnormal with him when we travel. We were home 2 nights before we
had to leave again for the holidays. Both of those nights he vomited
after he ate. He refused food completely the Wednesday night before
Thanksgiving after we had just gotten in from the 8 hour road trip,
which didn't totally surprise me. On Thanksgiving, I fed him some
ground beef (which is his ultimate favorite) that I found in my
parents freezer and he ate almost two pounds of it happily and kept
it down. Friday we made the 8 hour trip back home and that night he
refused food again, which I expected. Both Saturday and Sunday he
vomited up his raw meals (chicken one night, pork the other), but was
able to keep down some canned mackeral and a whole egg. Monday night
he had pork and kept it down, but tonight I offered beef brisket and
once again he has vomited it back up. He had a snack this morning of
the canned mackeral and egg, and he kept that down. It really
appears that it's the raw food that's causing him a problem and I
can't understand it. The meat has to be fine because 3 other pets
are eating it without problems.
The temperature of the meat could be making a difference, but so far
I've tried it frozen, room temp and warmed under running water with
no change.
Portion sizes. I've tried giving him 1/2 a meal and then giving him
the rest about 30 minutes later. I never actually got to the second
meal because he vomited after the first one. He has not had anything
at all that isn't familiar to him in the last 3 or 4 months (he was
offered rabbit but refused to even so much as taste it).

Other than the vomiting, he is acting perfectly normal. He has been
having bowel movements normally, though they are smaller, urinating
normally, happily taking his daily walks, etc. I know that he's not
going to starve to death from missing a few meals and he doesn't
appear to have lost much if any weight, but it bothers me that this
has become a recurring issue. Does anyone have any ideas that I
might not have thought of (and I'll admit there are probably many,
that's why I'm here!). I appreciate any and all thoughts. Thanks,
Rachelle in MS

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Vomiting after meals
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:42 pm ((PST))

On Nov 27, 2007, at 5:21 PM, sphynxlover2 wrote:
> .,....Other than the vomiting, he is acting perfectly normal. He
> has been
> having bowel movements normally, though they are smaller, urinating
> normally, happily taking his daily walks, etc. I know that he's not
> going to starve to death from missing a few meals and he doesn't
> appear to have lost much if any weight, but it bothers me that this
> has become a recurring issue. Does anyone have any ideas that I
> might not have thought of (and I'll admit there are probably many,
> that's why I'm here!). I appreciate any and all thoughts. Thanks,
> Rachelle in MS

Does he, or are you letting him, eat it back up?

Do these vomited meals have bone?

Does he vomit after activity, like an evening walk?

Has he had recent vaccines, and what is his vaccine history generally?

How's his water consumption? Does he drink a lot after meals?

Pardon all the questions...

ginny and Tomo, the giant Amstaff

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. Dave Mech and his wolves
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:35 pm ((PST))

He came to my classroom back in the 1970's when I was teaching at Sunset
Hill Elementary School in Plymouth, MN. Two wolves came with and were
let loose in one of our courtyards while my students were allowed to pet
them and learn about them. Fascinating. It is when I first thought
about raw food for dogs.
Sai

========================================

Dr. L. David Mech has been studying
wolves for decades, and has published many books and articles on
wolves and their diets.

Dr. Wayne's website:
http://www.eeb.ucla.edu/indivfaculty.php?FacultyKey=501

Dr. Mech's website:
http://www.davemech.org/biography.html

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: more on turkey wings and reply to Chris
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:36 pm ((PST))

Chris, Thanks for the great reply, it is mucho appreciated!

As to the toothless inquiry...I have several older hairless Cresteds...and the hairless ones in particular tend to loose teeth even before they get older...so once they are older, we very rarely have teeth "in the house", lol I have one boy, who I was just joking tonite that his mouth looks like a goats...he has only about 4 teeth on top (only one of them a molar) and then less than half of what he should have on the bottom. LOlLPretty funny looking. Then I have my old gal, Cricket, who has at last count, 4 teeth left in her whole head, but scatted around thru out just the front part of her mouth, and are sorta hodgepodge, just "stuck" in there at weird angels, so they kind of stick out sometimes, she is a real snagglepuss, :-) I have noticed a tendancy in this breed for the older kids to have a few teeth in front and a molar or 2 in the back and they loose everything in between. ;-)
This is a very interesting breed, and I ADORE them!!!!

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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Messages in this topic (4)
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14. Beef Heart? and other meats :)
Posted by: "redangelbordeaux" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:06 pm ((PST))

I just picked up a load of meat today.

40# Turkey necks. I was so happy to find out that they were
individually wrapped! Do they always come this way?

40# super score of lamb brest for only .99 a lb!

60# beef hearts all frozen together in a solid block :( now
defrosting in my bathtub, lol.

Anyway I was noticing that the beef heart has quite a bit a fat on
it and also has part of the artery attached. My main questiona are:

Should I trim the fat or leave it on and serve it up as is?

Is the artery portion a source or cartelidge that is good to feed to
a dog with displasia problems?

Is it ok to feed the beef heart as the "meaty" portion of most meals
and the turkey necks and lamb breast(bone in) as the RMB portion of
the meal?

Thanks in advance!
Erika

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12324

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
From: Kelly
1b. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
From: Dawn Taylor

2a. Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
From: Shannon Parker

3a. Re: variety
From: alimaxral

4a. Naturally Raised Dogs and cats
From: A. L. W.
4b. Re: Naturally Raised Dogs and cats
From: Alison Maffett

5a. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
From: Cdandp2@aol.com
5b. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Pork Neck Bones
From: Tiziana Ruff
6b. Re: Pork Neck Bones
From: costrowski75
6c. Re: Pork Neck Bones
From: Elizabeth Hackley

7a. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
From: recyclerat@aol.com
7b. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
From: costrowski75
7c. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
From: recyclerat@aol.com

8a. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
From: Morledzep@aol.com

9a. Blood work and raw diet question please
From: rainy_dogpark
9b. Re: Blood work and raw diet question please
From: Sandee Lee

10a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: PK Shader

11a. Re: raw food compagnies in the USA
From: h h

12. Re: Lose the scale, look at the dog
From: Sai Simonson

13a. Re: Determining weight of dog
From: Sai Simonson
13b. Re: Determining weight of dog
From: Tina Berry

14a. Frozen 4 toys? (was -how much to feed a 4lb chihuahua?)
From: ada

15a. Re: My introduction:
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
Posted by: "Kelly" kelism@gmail.com vt_stuff
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:51 am ((PST))

I have two chihuahuas - both around 3 lbs. One is a VERY dainty eater...the
other isn't exactly a gulper but she prefers to eat quickly.

On 11/27/07, glamour.cupcakes <glamour.cupcakes@yahoo.com> wrote:

> She was eating a couple of chicken gizzards (partially thawed)

For small dogs, gizzards are the PERFECT size to choke on. I don't feed
gizzards because of that reason. Either skip them, or cut/grind if you feel
you have to feed them (too much work, just skip them).

On 11/27/07, glamour.cupcakes <glamour.cupcakes@yahoo.com> wrote:

> What are some "safe" parts I can give her? I can't
> offer her a whole chicken because that will take her over a week to
> finish. At the same time, it has to be something big enough so she
> definitely has to chew.

Try a game hen instead of a chicken and cut it in half. Freeze one half,
and the other half should last a few days of chewing. Chicken quarters are
also good. As are hunks 'o rabbit, lamb necks, any kind of ribs, etc.

--
Kelly

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
Posted by: "Dawn Taylor" dawnmarie1968@tx.rr.com dawnt91
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 pm ((PST))

"Do you have any tips for me on how to deal with a tiny gulper? She
is just 5lbs. What are some "safe" parts I can give her? I can't
offer her a whole chicken because that will take her over a week to
finish. At the same time, it has to be something big enough so she
definitely has to chew."

******************

I have a 10 lb Chi-MinPin mix, and I usually don't give her anything as
small as a gizzard, unless it's a piece of organ meat like liver. Right
now, she's working on a bone from a pork picnic. I cut most of the meat off
of it for my greyhound to eat as a meaty meal and gave her the rest.
There's probably 3/4 lb of meat and skin left on it. When she gets full,
I'll pick it up for tomorrow. She won't eat much of the bone since it's so
large, but she'll get enough of it.

I also feed her chicken thighs and breasts. If they're too big for one day,
I take them up for the next.

I try to make sure her food is always bigger than her head. She hasn't
choked yet, thankfully.

HTH

Dawn

Messages in this topic (6)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:27 am ((PST))

Hi Sai,

I agree with what everyone has told you. If your dog is looking fat (and Its not hard to tell on those sighthounds even with all that hair) then cut him back. If he's not fat, he's not fat. The sighthounds tend to have a very high metabolism. To give you an idea of what my guys eat...I have a 55lb greyhound that is maintaining well on 1.75-2 lb a day. I have a 105lb Argentine Dogo that eats 1.75lb a day and gets fat when I give him any more than that. They both sleep about 23 hours a day, but they are designed differently and thus eat what they can maintain. Trust your dog on this one...he'll tell you when it's too much, or too little.

Shannon

Sai Simonson <saiczarina@comcast.net> wrote:
Tina,
Have interesting thing to relate. Took Lexi (100+ lb Borzoi) to the vet
scale today as he had been "telling" me he was starving and please give
him an extra chicken thigh or two. He weighed in at 108 which is
starting to concern me. I have removed all skin from the thighs. Now
he gets the smaller turkey neck and the beef knuckle bone without the
fat. His companion is only 62 lb female Borzoi so she gets the better
stuff now. Lexi has gained 10 pounds since July on the all raw diet. Oh
what to do??? :-)

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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: variety
Posted by: "alimaxral" albrooker@bigpond.com alimaxral
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:23 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
>
> Better be safe than sorry- give the digestive system a
> chance to adjust to the new stuff.
>
> Jennifer

Hi everyone

Thanks for your answers. I started raw about a week ago. My dogs
whilst mainly kibble fed have also had a reasonable exposure to a
variety of meats including a brief period of a modified/additive raw
immediately preceeding prey model. Things are going well. I was
nervous, dogs ravenous and content.

Only question is whether one of mine is taking time to adjust to
breaking down bone in his gut. Is it normal in the early stages to
have 2" bones expelled in the stools? Happenend initially though not
the last few days. Last night woke to one of the dogs about to throw
up. Almost laughed when I saw the small volume (am used to HUGE
volume kibble lakes)but was a bit concerned by the 2" needle sharp
bone expelled.

Will this lessen and stop or is this all 'par for the course' and is
what the dogs gut is designed for?

Alison

Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Naturally Raised Dogs and cats
Posted by: "A. L. W." chenneoue@yahoo.com chenneoue
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:23 pm ((PST))

I believe a while back, which I can't seem to find, there was a link
to a list, or site where they listed dogs/puppies that were raised on
Raw and vaccine free. Does anyone have that link? Is there also a
place like that for cats?

I am not in the market right this second for either, but I figure it
good to do some research to find breeders now. :)

Thank you,

Amanda

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Naturally Raised Dogs and cats
Posted by: "Alison Maffett" sweettuth23@yahoo.com sweettuth23
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 pm ((PST))

Here ya go: http://www.truthaboutvaccines.org/breeders.html Alison

----- Original Message ----

I believe a while back, which I can't seem to find, there was a link to a list, or site where they listed dogs/puppies that were raised on Raw and vaccine free. Does anyone have that link? Is there also a place like that for cats?

Amanda

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Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
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5a. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

Well, I'd go to K9KidneyDiet (yahoo list) and see what they have to say.? I've been through hospicing a dog with renal failure and all usual assumptions are off depending on the dog's particular blood profile, etc.

Raw is fine, but the challenge there becomes giving enough calories without overloading phosphorus.

They're great on that list and really know everything you want to know about all aspects of kidney problems and related issues...especially diet.

That is, if you want to prolong the dog's life.? In the wild, the kidneys would just shut down and the dog would die.

Just a suggestion.

best to all,

Carol

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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:56 pm ((PST))

Hi Tammy,

We have discussed this a lot...did you look up renal disease or kidney
disease?

Here is some info about protein and kidneys....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/114796

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Pork Neck Bones
Posted by: "Tiziana Ruff" queentiz@msn.com tizianaruff
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

My butcher game me a bag of pork neck bones as a present. They are
probably 3 x 2 inches long. Can I give those to my 2 Weimaraners?

Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Pork Neck Bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:45 pm ((PST))

"Tiziana Ruff" <queentiz@...> wrote:
>
> My butcher game me a bag of pork neck bones as a present. They are
> probably 3 x 2 inches long. Can I give those to my 2 Weimaraners?
*****
Egad, no.
These are exactly precisely the sort of bones that cause problems. Use
them in a good sturdy soup or stew. If they are at all meaty, roast
and bbq them. Don't feed them your Weims.

And next time, ask your butcher not to cut them. At all. Butchers
rarely "get" raw feeding. Their lack of knowledge is often detrimental
to the process.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: Pork Neck Bones
Posted by: "Elizabeth Hackley" twodobemom@yahoo.com twodobemom
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:54 pm ((PST))

I would. Given that my dobes are about the same size
as your pups, I'd actually say that their a bit on the
small size, but that's just my opinion. I prefer my
neck bones to be a bit bigger.

Elizabeth Hackley, Flicka, Gunther Guinness with Loki & Max (waiting at the bridge)

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Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:25 pm ((PST))

No, probably too much food. Too large of meals will cause soft stools
as will too much fat early in the diet or too many organs early in the
diet. It sounds like he is getting too much to eat at one time. I
know you said he was underweight, but those pounds need to be put back
on gradually.

Bill Carnes
*****************************
really?? too much?

his ideal weight would be around 100 lbs - so i was guesstimating his avg
food intake should be around 3-4 lbs (well my guesstimation does involve
over feeding by maybe a pound, b/c of him being so very bony right now).

the 1/2 ckn weighed around 2 lbs - and the fish, maybe 1? plus the
drumstick bones... think i should quarter the chicken and feed only half the
chicken of the whole day?

i kinda wanna stick to chicken without the skin and fish until i feel
securely over this bowel flare up -

i appreciate all this help, so does Frank.

.heather.
.frank.
.chi-chi.

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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:52 pm ((PST))

recyclerat@... wrote:
> really?? too much?
*****
If you are comfortable with the amount you've chosen to start with,
perhaps what you might do is add a meal so that you're feeding the same
amount but each serving is smaller. This puts less of a burden on the
digestive system.

I don't think too much bone can cause the runs but certainly a too big
meal can; and if bone is part of the meal, it too will come out
undigested.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:40 pm ((PST))

I don't think too much bone can cause the runs but certainly a too big
meal can; and if bone is part of the meal, it too will come out
undigested.
Chris O

*********************************

ok..gotcha. i will try a lesser amount for the 1st meal..and try a smaller
meal mid day..and a small meal again for the evening.

now, i'm going to do a poop check.

.heather.

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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:38 pm ((PST))

"laura.wimpey" <laura.wimpey@...> wrote:>
> >Those numbers are nothing more than a suggested starting point...
>
> Yes and so should I consider myself no longer a "starter" raw
feeder
> after only a few weeks?
*****
Not that kind of starting.
Starting as in "well this room is a total disaster and I don't know
where to begin so I guess I'LL START HERE."

I took the calculation as a starting point.
*****
Yes, this kind of starting. If the starting place you chose isn't
working, choose again. Adjusting, fiddling, fooling around with,
messing with--all are part of a good raw diet fed by a responsive and
responsible raw feeder.

>I'll muck around the archives now to find some info on
> higher calorie meats; go back and find those links I ingnored that
> took you to nutritional info sites. And no, I won't become
obsessed
> with counting calories for the dogs instead of counting ounces :P.
*****
I suggest the easiest way to increase fat is to feed visible fat.
You don't need to get up close and personal with calories, really.
Pork shoulder - visible fat. Lamb - visible fat. Beef pot
roast/brisket - visible fat. Salmon, mackerel, sardines - visble
fat. Goat - little visible fat. Venison - little visible fat.
Whether the fat is subQ or laid down on muscle or collected around
organs, you'll be able to see it. It's not shy.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:08 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/27/2007 6:27:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
laura.wimpey@yahoo.com writes:

So do I need to give this more time for him to drop some weight? Is
there some fallable point in my feeding calculation? Am I on the
right track to shed some pounds off him or is 55 lbs his 'happy
weight'? His stools have not indicated overfeeding since the first
few days.

Laura,

the beginning percentages are just guidelines.. if Elias needs less food then
he needs less food. Feed him less. 2% is not a minimum, it's only a
beginning reference point.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (7)
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9a. Blood work and raw diet question please
Posted by: "rainy_dogpark" rainy_dogpark@myway.com rainy_dogpark
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:55 pm ((PST))

I am going to be getting my dog a senior blood workup this week. I've
been told that the numbers on the blood work of raw fed dogs can often
be different than with kibble fed dogs.

I did a search and found this link by Jean Dodd:
http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/doddsnutrition.html

It indicates the following:
"While a more detailed analysis of other parameters has yet to be
completed, initial results indicate that dogs fed raw meats (natural
carnivores) have higher red blood cell and blood urea nitrogen levels
than dogs fed cereal-based food (obligate omnivores). Thus, the normal
reference values for dogs fed raw food diets should probably be revised."

Has anyone seen any changes on test results in your dogs?
Thanks.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Blood work and raw diet question please
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:13 pm ((PST))

I think the majority of us have not seen any difference in blood levels on
our rawfed dogs. Just be sure he is fasting for at least 8 hours for the
most accurate results.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "rainy_dogpark" <rainy_dogpark@myway.com>

I am going to be getting my dog a senior blood workup this week. I've
been told that the numbers on the blood work of raw fed dogs can often
be different than with kibble fed dogs.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "PK Shader" Forloveofdogs@gmail.com forloveofdogs
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:58 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES AND YOUR SIG LINE.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "PK Shader" <Forloveofdogs@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "" <carnesw@> wrote:
> >
> > I know this is a bit after the fact, but I am very curious to
> > find out what feed "exactly" your brother uses on his chicken farm.

> I don't know "exactly" what he feeds.

Perhaps when you talk to him again you would be so kind as to ask him
for me.

> > Even now I cannot find any feed formulated for chickens at any
> > of my local or otherwise farm feed stores because they
> > don't carry "chicken" feed that does not have meds already in
> > the mix.
> He doesn't buy his food at a store. It is shipped in by tractor
> trailer trucks. It is not in bags, but open in the trucks. It is
> pumped into large silo like structures and sent by conveyer belt to
> the feeders. Feeding is an automatic operation. No humans needed.
> He gets a tractor trailer load every few days.

As is the case for large chicken and other livestock concerns in my
state as well. But bagged or truck load they are all the same feed
according to the main office.

> > And since a normal chicken takes up to 5 months to mature may
> > I assume that your brother is farming the genetically
> > engineered whites that mature in 6 to 8 weeks?
>
> I don't know if "genetically engineered" is the correct term anymore
> than each breed of dog is "genetically engineered". Yes they are
> white and they mature in 8 weeks.

This may be true but since neither I or my dogs eat other dogs, my
question was about chickens.

> > If so I know that (here in Wisconsin
> > according to our own farm extension service) if they are not given
> > large supplements of vitamin B, D and calcium daily their
> > legs become deformed and they will go down.

> I don't know what supplements are in the food. I don't consider
> vitamins and minerals to be chemicals. I guess technically they are
> but they aren't like hormones or steriods or abx which aren't used.

I appreciate your information and will be curious to hear about what
your brother actually feeds his chickens. It could possibly save me a
lot of work and worry for my own small flock.

Thanks Again,

PK Shader CSATSLL1, ABMA, ABS, AWA, CSATS Mentor
For Love of Dogs Canine/Human Relations Learning Center LLC
Walworth/Springfield, WI 53176
Office 262-248-0620 Cell 312-259-5305
Currently, and for the last 42 years, teaching humans to live in
harmony with their best friends.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/SATZ_Main/

www.forloveofdogs.pk

Messages in this topic (17)
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11a. Re: raw food compagnies in the USA
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:59 pm ((PST))

Heidi, the FDA already says feeding raw is bad. One of the basics most
rawfeeders have to address thoroughly is the attitude of
institutionalized anything towards alternative anything.

~~~~~~~~
Yes, I know they are already saying that Raw is bad (just look at all those "helpful" how to cook labels on the packages of meat in the store). But, if they are going after companies that manufacture those raw mixes...they are bringing it to forefront of kibble feeders attention. Plus if the FDA is able to shut down companies that make the raw mixes, then that would make any "animal care professional" that isn't a raw advocate *required* to report me for neglect according to my city's municipal code. I don't mind defending the way I feed my dogs...but I would much rather not have to do it in a court of law. Plus there are a few other points in the municipal code pertaining to animals that I don't follow.

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (13)
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12. Re: Lose the scale, look at the dog
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:44 pm ((PST))

Tina,
I am heartened for this information and hope I can apply it to myself.
Have been on a two hour regime of weight, pulleys, pry bars to regain
use of my "frozen" shoulder after a sport injury on the Ides of April
9(ahem, jump over the couch). My jeans not fitting must indicate muscle
not fat from the extra snacks....oh my. Also taking creatine....but we
are not covering supplements here and I am not the dog in question.

Lexi does look good so I will not worry, but I have cut out the baby
carrots (4), half a slice of cheese, and am giving bigger portions to
the girl Zoi. Then there is the after walk snack....we gave him only 2
tiny minature treats instead of 4. He noticed. I do have the freeze
dried beef liver treats which I probably should substitute.

Sai

Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:45 am (PST)
"Lexi has gained 10 pounds since July on the all raw diet. Oh what to do???"

Ignore the scale and look at your dog. When you convert to raw, the main
thing to remember is you just cut out all those fattening carbs and your
dog will develop more muscle instead of fat. Muscle weighs more than
just like us if we weigh 120lbs ideally, then start lifting weights,
doing aerobics, etc. and now weigh 140 - but we still wear the same size
clothes - it's because we converted our fat to muscle and we are now tone.

Same with dogs; so if he's getting appropriate exercise, and you can
barely see his ribs and they feel like washboards, he's probably fine.
Also, I don't know if all breeds do this, but gsds will get a fatty
pocket under their chest between their front legs when they are too heavy.

So ignore the scale and look at your dog - he'll tell you.

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: Determining weight of dog
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:44 pm ((PST))

Tina said:
Same with dogs; so if he's getting appropriate exercise, and you can barely
see his ribs and they feel like washboards, he's probably fine. Also, I
don't know if all breeds do this, but gsds will get a fatty pocket under
their chest between their front legs when they are too heavy.

It will be hard to determine fatty pocket, if any, for the fatty tumors
reside there.
Disgusting, many on his body since he was 4. No one knows why.
Sai
--
--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: Determining weight of dog
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:08 pm ((PST))

"It will be hard to determine fatty pocket, if any, for the fatty
tumors reside there. Disgusting, many on his body since he was 4. No one
knows why."

Seems fatty tumors are pretty common - with people too. Atleast if they're
benign, no worries.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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14a. Frozen 4 toys? (was -how much to feed a 4lb chihuahua?)
Posted by: "ada" mom2moz@yahoo.com mom2moz
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:08 pm ((PST))

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "typerzoid"
> <typerzoid@...> wrote:
> > I remember reading in prior posts about frozen and
> > even chilled meat possibly causing seizures (?) in
> > toy breeds. Something about it lowering their body
> > temperature to a dangerous level.
> > Jayne and Bodhi, Minpin Extrordinare

I cannot speak to the issue of seizures resulting from
chilled meat; but, I do know that my Abigail (yorkie)
has had sudden core temp drop from eating partially
frozen meat. I have one dog that won't eat *unless*
it's frozen, so I offered her some too. She loved it;
but, I think it threw her into shock. I thought she'd
never stop shaking. I held her close to keep her
warm. Won't do that again!

ada
mo (silkie/shih-tzu/maltese mutt) & abbie (yorkie)

"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole." ~ Roger Caras

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Messages in this topic (7)
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15a. Re: My introduction:
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:17 pm ((PST))

Hi Ian,

About time you get that pup switched over to real food! :))

Wondering what your reasoning is for saving the best for last rather than
starting them out on raw during their crucial growth period???? There is
absolutely no benefit to feeding kibble. Raw results in perfect slow growth
with all the necessary nutrients those little bodies require.

But anyway...what are you feeding now?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Ian Flanagan" <oddariesofthe7th@yahoo.com>

> Hey, my name is Ian. I'm from PA, I own 3 Labradors, one of each color. 2
are on raw/home made diets, the other is starting to be weened off from the
breeders kibble to raw. Some may ask why isn't she on the raw yet, well.. I
honestly didn't want to take her off the kibble until she was a lil older.
Now going on 7 months I feel its time. As I did with my other 2. Normally I
ween them from the solid gold wolfcub, to innova large breed puppy kibble,
to innova evo, then to bravo/paw naturaw pre made raw, then to home made
raw.

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12323

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
From: katkellm
1b. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
From: carnesbill
1c. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
From: laura.wimpey

2a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
From: Laurie Swanson
3b. Re: Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
From: Tina Berry

4a. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
From: Andrea

5a. Re: more on turkey wings and reply to Chris
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: First Raw feed mixed reviews
From: Andrea

7a. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
From: Laura Atkinson
7c. Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
From: Michael Moore
7d. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
From: ginny wilken
7e. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
From: Tina Berry

8a. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
From: Andrea
8b. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
From: Laurie Swanson

9a. Re: UPDATE to my Question RE: [rawfeeding] Pig Leg bones...
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: variety
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: trying not working
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: raw food compagnies in the USA
From: costrowski75

13a. how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
From: Jay
13b. Re: how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
From: Scott Baker
13c. Re: how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
From: Laurie Swanson

14. I know it's not a miracle, but...
From: i_calado

15. New member, Kim
From: Sai Simonson

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:07 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "laura.wimpey" <laura.wimpey@...>
wrote:

> Elias' food calculation is working strange - he's not loosing weight
> and in fact is appearing more portly and content these days.

Hi Laura,
Have you actually weighed him? The reason that i am asking is because
when i first started raw feeding, i thought my lab gained weight
because she looked, as you said, more portly. When i weighed her,
however, she hadn't gained any weight at all, what she had just seemed
more solid. Also, this lab, who is 55lbs, maintains her weight at
14oz-give or take-so if in fact he did gain weight, it could be he
just needs less food.
KathyM who wishes she wanted less food

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:18 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "laura.wimpey" <laura.wimpey@...>
wrote:
>
> Is
> there some fallable point in my feeding calculation?

The fallable point is that you seem to be feeding numbers rather than
real world stuff. Those numbers are nothing more than a suggested
starting point to give the new raw feeder some sort of ball park place
to begin. Feed more or less depending on the dogs build. If your dog
needs to lose weight and he is not losing with the amount you are
feeding, feed less or feed a less fattening food. No need to measure
every meal.

I have never weighed anything in my 5 years of raw feeding. I know
how much I feed. If I need to adjust(and i do sometimes) I feed more
or less.

It sounds like you are feeding more lamb and beef than anything and
both of those are more calorie dense than things like chicken and
turkey.

> His stools have not indicated overfeeding since the first
> few days.

BUT, according to you, his weight is indicating he needs to be fed
less or fed "thinner" food.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

>
> Regards,
> Laura W.
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
Posted by: "laura.wimpey" laura.wimpey@yahoo.com laura.wimpey
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:41 am ((PST))

>Those numbers are nothing more than a suggested starting point...

Yes and so should I consider myself no longer a "starter" raw feeder
after only a few weeks? I took the calculation as a starting point.
I'm not going to weigh the food forever but I am going to get a basic
undertanding of what 9 oz looks like and for a few days that has
required a scale which resulted in my focus on numbers which I then
spouted out in my post. I'm not as number intense as is percieved.

I approached it rather counterintuitively - I didn't start weighing
food until the THIRD week. I just put the food in front of the dog
the first two weeks. It was the portly expansion of eli's gut that
caused me to start weighing the food.

You were helpful mentioning the calorie content of the meats I'm
feeding. I'll muck around the archives now to find some info on
higher calorie meats; go back and find those links I ingnored that
took you to nutritional info sites. And no, I won't become obsessed
with counting calories for the dogs instead of counting ounces :P.

Regards,
Laura W.

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:07 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "PK Shader" <Forloveofdogs@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "" <carnesw@> wrote:
>
> I know this is a bit after the fact, but I am very curious to
> find out
> what feed "exactly" your brother uses on his chicken farm.

I don't know "exactly" what he feeds.

> Even now I cannot find any feed formulated for chickens at any
> of my local or otherwise farm feed stores because they
> don't carry "chicken" feed that does not have meds already in
> the mix.

He doesn't buy his food at a store. It is shipped in by tractor
trailer trucks. It is not in bags, but open in the trucks. It is
pumped into large silo like structures and sent by conveyer belt to
the feeders. Feeding is an automatic operation. No humans needed.
He gets a tractor trailer load every few days.

> And since a normal chicken takes up to 5 months to mature may
> I assume that your brother is farming the genetically
> engineered whites that mature in 6 to 8 weeks?

I don't know if "genetically engineered" is the correct term anymore
than each breed of dog is "genetically engineered". Yes they are
white and they mature in 8 weeks.

> If so I know that (here in Wisconsin
> according to our own farm extension service) if they are not given
> large supplements of vitamin B, D and calcium daily their
> legs become deformed and they will go down.

I don't know what supplements are in the food. I don't consider
vitamins and minerals to be chemicals. I guess technically they are
but they aren't like hormones or steriods or abx which aren't used.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (16)
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3a. Re: Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:07 am ((PST))

Hi Sai,

How does Lexi look? Sometimes dogs gain weight on the scale, but
they're just fine. That said, it can be easy to overfeed all this fun
new food. How old are your dogs? How active? Some dogs need 2% of
their body weight in food daily, some 4% or so. Just adjust amounts of
food if they look too skinny or too chubby (keeping in mind that being
a little lean is better than overweight).

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:45 am ((PST))

"Lexi has gained 10 pounds since July on the all raw diet. Oh what to do???"

Ignore the scale and look at your dog. When you convert to raw, the main
thing to remember is you just cut out all those fattening carbs and your dog
will develop more muscle instead of fat. Muscle weighs more than fat. It's
just like us if we weigh 120lbs ideally, then start lifting weights, doing
aerobics, etc. and now weigh 140 - but we still wear the same size clothes -
it's because we converted our fat to muscle and we are now tone.

Same with dogs; so if he's getting appropriate exercise, and you can barely
see his ribs and they feel like washboards, he's probably fine. Also, I
don't know if all breeds do this, but gsds will get a fatty pocket under
their chest between their front legs when they are too heavy.

So ignore the scale and look at your dog - he'll tell you.

--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:22 am ((PST))

Hi, Tammy, welcome to the group! I'm sorry about Cody and I hope he
doesn't have anything serious. I don't know enough about raw and
kidney disease to speak authoritatively, but I haven't heard of a
disease yet that wouldn't work with a good raw diet. I'll let the
experts talk more in specifics for you.

> I think I've had what seems to be the typical early concerns -
> bacteria & bones - but have fairly well satisfied myself that those
> concerns are unjustified if care & common sense is used.

Good, this is usually the biggest hurdle for us to clear.

> I was also curious as to how much on average you spend per week
> feeding raw.

I have a big freezer that I keep stocked with food for the dogs and
cats. I've never calculated out how much I actually spend a week
since I buy in bulk. I have a pointer mix (about 60lbs), a newf mix
puppy (also about 60lbs), and three cats. If I had to guess I'd say
I spend about $25 a week feeding them (though most of it goes to the
black hole of a newf pup).

> how or where the bone is cut can be a factor in splintering?

Raw bones shouldn't splinter, but big bones cut with saws can be
pretty sharp. Think pork chop or T bones.

> Just how does one go about "cutting" a whole chicken, for example,
> into the right proportions?

I *hate* cutting up food, but quartering a chicken isn't all that
bad. The hardest part is cutting through the back, but if you have
good poultry shears it works better. I just cut the bird so I have
two breast/wing quarters and two leg/thigh quarters. When I had to
divide it more for the cats I would take the leg off at the joint and
cut the breast quarter in half. Luckily I have trained the cats to
eat from a whole chicken now so I don't have to fuss with cutting
them any more.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: more on turkey wings and reply to Chris
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:>
> So on that logic, then, would you be comfortable feeding the wing,
with added meaty meat?
*****
That, IMO, would be a way to "even out" the amount of bone a wing
offers. This would be particularly useful if one were feeding a dog
for which "too much" bone produces difficult stools. For dogs that
are not especially bothered by wide swings of meaty meals and bony
meals, adding meat to a wing may not be important in this regard.

My preference is to feed a wing securely attached to more of the
bird. Not necessarily the whole rest of the breast quarter but at
least stuck to part of the shoulder. This only adds meat but also
complicates the eating process, which is always a good thing.

Meaning, it is not simply the wing itself, it is the actual lack of
meat on the wing you dislike? Right?
*****
Well, um. Yes it is the wing by itself. That's what I choose not to
feed: the wing by itself. However, as part of the larger bird, wings
fit right in. For small cats and dogs, a wing plus some added meat
is a reasonable compromise.

I've never had problems with that "little sharp thing" on a turkey
wing, but then again I've never fed turkey wings by their lonesome.
I can't see that "little sharp thing" being worrisome to a dog of any
size. Keep in mind that to some people the nails on chicken feet are
daunting.

Seems like perhaps a wing, would benefit the diet when offered with
ground meat, since the wing has more bone than meat and ground has no
calcium (bone) ...yes?
*****
Yes, but since rawfeeders are not required by nature to balance
meals, a ground meat meal by itself is perfectly fine to feed (at
least within the terms of this topic). You do not have to add a bony
body part to a meaty meal AS LONG AS THE DOG IS GOOD WITH BONELESS
MEALS. If the rawfeeder feels the dog needs bone in every meal, then
adding a chicken wing would address that concern.

Maybe for my totally toothless kids, I could mix up a ground wing
in with some ground meat to fulfil the calcium requirements?
*****
Chicken wings go through most grinders. But there is rarely need to:
there are many posts in the archives that confirm that toothless
wonders manage bones just fine, since the eating process is crushing
not chewing and that requires jaw strength, not teeth. Not
necessarily. OTOH, they're your totally toothless kids (all of them
are toothless?), if grinding chicken wings works for you, go for it.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: First Raw feed mixed reviews
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:35 am ((PST))

> 2 of my standards thought I had lost my mind and refused to eat.

Bummer, but not the end of the world, right? Some dogs really don't
get that the chicken is food. It doesn't have much of a smell and
some of them are turned off by the texture. We'll help you get them
to where they love dinner time.

> My female Standard loved them she had 2 thighs (but threw up about
> 30 mins after eating) did I feed her to much at first??

I'll bet she pretty much swallowed the thighs whole, right?
Sometimes, if a dog gets a big ol' chunk of meat and bone in the
stomach it doesn't digest as quickly as the stomach would like so it
gets kicked back out. Did you pick up the vomit and throw it away?
She probably would have re-eaten it if you had let her. It sounds
gross, I know, but that's what dogs do when they haven't chewed
something enough for their tummie's liking.

> My golden refused to eat until I cut it up in smaller pieces.

Be careful here, you don't want to coax them too much in the
beginning or you will create a picky eater. A golden should be
perfectly capable of eating chicken quarters, you shouldn't have to
cut it up for her to eat. The mini/standard might be ok starting
with a thigh but I wouldn't go smaller than that.

> I took up the chicken the boys refused to eat. Maybe tomorrow they
> will be hungry. So how did I do???

You did great your first time out! You did absolutely the right
thing with the standard boys, if they get hungry they will eat next
time. Now, just do the same with the golden and mini and you'll be
golden. If they refuse food again at the next feeding don't stress
or try to coax them or cut up the food, just calmly put it away for
next time. You might consider warming the food before feeding by
putting it in a bowl of hot water. Sometimes that brings out more
smell and makes it more appetizing. If that doesn't work, let us
know. All in all you did a fantastic job!

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:41 am ((PST))

"Carla Spelt" <fauvetnoir@...> wrote:>
> Has anyone noticed a difference in time bitches take between season
> after switching to raw?
*****
I've only two bitches and both were started on raw as pups so I cannot
compare before and after. However, my golden bitch didn't come into
season til she was almost a year old and I know her littermates (and
her Momma) cycle more quickly; subsequently her timing has been about
10-11 months. My border collie had her first estrus at 10 months; I
have nothing to compare that with.

Whether the cycle change is meaningful is open to interpretation
though. Some say so what, others suggest longer cycles are healthier,
others argue the opposite.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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7b. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:02 am ((PST))

Yes and no :-) Katie, who's been raw fed since 7 weeks, cycles every six
months, like clockwork. But she didn't have her first season until she was
almost a year old. She (and many of the other females in her line) have
major false pregnancies (something we'll be addressing through homeopathy
but that's another list <grin>).

Satinka, who didn't start eating raw until she moved in here cycles every
10-12 months. Her sister is every 6 months, like clockwork.

Robin, who just had her first season, started at about 8 months, like her
sister...but her season was short. I'm hoping it's not going to be split
seasons!

For whatever reason, I welcome the longer cycles. First off 'cause it's
healthier for the uterus not to cycle every six months without breeding
(according to repro specialists that is). Second because it's easier to
manage a household of females and intact (and wish they were intact) males
when the girls aren't going off every 6 months.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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7c. Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:30 am ((PST))

>> I am planning to breed one of my bitches and
to keep her on raw food while she is pregnant. I understand that pups
from a bitch fed on raw while pregnant may be a little smaller when
born but will probably be stronger.<<
Carla -- I haven't found that with the two litters I've had from rawfed bitches. My litter this summer (nine puppies) were average size at birtch. But, I did find that they grew more slowly until about the age of four to five month. Whether that had anything to do with weaning them to raw, I don't know. I will tell you that at 7 wks., my bitch's breeder commented that they looked "puny." Now, they're seven months and while one bitch is a bit smaller, I think that's just genetics.

>> The only thing that is puzzling me is that she is very late coming in season. She's had regular seasons approx 7 months apart but is now more than 8 months past her last season. I have switched her to raw since her last season and just wonder if it has anything to do with it?<<
Again, not in my experience. I've been rawfeeding for 6 + years, and my girls' seasons haven't changed.

>> She is in great condition by the way - looks better than she ever did on commercial food. I show my dogs as well and ppl are often commenting on the great coats my dogs have :-) <<
Isn't that the coolest thing? I show mine as well, and I love the coats and better muscling that raw gives -- quite a nice "edge" in the show ring! Congrats on making the switch.

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

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Messages in this topic (6)
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7d. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:04 am ((PST))

On Nov 27, 2007, at 7:40 AM, costrowski75 wrote:

> "Carla Spelt" <fauvetnoir@...> wrote:>
>> Has anyone noticed a difference in time bitches take between season
>> after switching to raw?
> ......
> Whether the cycle change is meaningful is open to interpretation
> though. Some say so what, others suggest longer cycles are healthier,
> others argue the opposite.
> Chris O

There's some evidence that domestication, which almost always entails
changing a biologically appropriate diet to one based on grain, for
every species, has increased the frequency of cycles for all. Cows,
horses, humans, dogs, pigs, chickens, guinea pigs - all. It would
seem very logical, then, to expect a return to longer cycles - and
often easier ones - for any animal switched back to what it should be
eating. I recall some discussion of this in the distant past on this
list, which does substantiate the longer cycles.

Most animals in their natural state will cycle only when the seasons
are supportive of the process, so that cubs and calves can be born in
the spring when food is abundant, and have the best chance of growth
and survival through the following winter. Even humans will revert,
on certain diets. Carbs are only abundant in nature in the late
summer and fall, and there is solid science showing that they help
produce cortisol and other hormones to encourage mating. We and our
domestic animals, however, encourage it all year round, through our
diets and artificial lighting to obscure the seasons.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (6)
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7e. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:12 am ((PST))

"Has anyone noticed a difference in time bitches take between season after
switching to raw"

We acquired a 2 yr old female that I switched to raw right away and she
continued to cycle every 6 months right on schedule.

My prev kibble fed females (2) cycled every 6 months. My other 18 month old
female who was weaned to raw also cycles every 6 months.

The only time I've had their cycles vary is with 2 competing alpha bitches,
or one alpha forcing her heat when the other would go in heat.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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8a. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:44 am ((PST))

> Do you have any tips for me on how to deal with a tiny gulper?

Yes feed big food in relation to the pup. If she can't swallow it
whole she has to chew it.

> What are some "safe" parts I can give her?

Anything she can't try to fit in her mouth whole.

> I can't offer her a whole chicken because that will take her over a
> week to finish.

How about a chicken quarter? That should be more than big enough.

> Also, what I worry about is if she manages to chew a big chunk out
> of a big part I give her and choke on THAT.

The thing about big food is that it takes a lot of energy to get that
chunk off of the food. As the dog is working to get food off to eat
they relax a bit and are less likely to bolt the food. When finished
with a big complicated meal most dogs are ready for a nap. Dogs
don't eat polite little bites like us, they get something to the size
that they think will fit down the throat and they swallow it. She'll
likely calm down a bit in time, but for now you should help her out
by feeding big things.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:45 am ((PST))

I've been around the block on this issue w/my Boston...The thing
about the gizzard is that it was already separate from the rest of
the prey animal or a bigger hunk, she didn't have to think about how
to dismantle it, she's newer to this type of food, she was excited,
and it looked like it might fit. I don't have this tiny of a dog so
I'm not sure the exact parts that will work best for her, but I think
you need to feed as big as you need to when you can (big for her will
be smaller than for bigger dogs, obviously), and when you can't, chop
things up smaller. Did you try searching the archives on toy/tiny
dogs? Maybe feed a chicken drumstick for a day or two, or a leg
quarter for a few days, and alternate with some boneless meat. Add
in a bit of organ when ready. If you need to put it back in the
freezer and freeze and thaw, do that. If you want to feed pork or
beef, feed a bigger hunk of roast when you can, and when you want to
feed gizzards or smaller hunks that are of iffy size, chop them up
into bite-size pieces. I swear, if they have to think about how to
tackle it, and dismantle it themselves, they have to slow down, and
they are just more aware of what's going down the hatch. It does
sometimes take some practice. My dog has gotten slower and smarter
over the past year of prey model. Within a few months, he had
improved significantly.

I'm not sure what happened with your dog when she was making high-
pitched noises, but I don't think she was actually choking if she
made noise. She may have been struggling to get it down.

You will get more confident as you have more experience feeding her
and seeing her eat, too.

I know how you feel. Breathe...It will be ok. :-)

Laurie

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: UPDATE to my Question RE: [rawfeeding] Pig Leg bones...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:49 am ((PST))

Eddie Scholten <shirl-ed@...> wrote:
>
> I asked about whole pig leg bones:Are these safe as a good chew for a
large dog? Or are then teeth-breakers?
> I wish to make it clear that these bones do have some (not much at
all) meat and sinew on them, and I only wonder if the effort of getting
that meat off is a good thing for a dog (pup or older dog?) or if the
bones are just not worth giving or are unsafe in any way?
*****
I think whole pig legs are fine for chewing adventures and may well be
entirely consumed assuming the legs are not from a crankly old porker
that spent its cantankerous life chasing intruders from its yard, in
which case the leg bones would be dense and strong and possible tooth
breakers.

Keep in mind that eating large amounts of bone withou appropriate
amounts of meat may result in some dandy constipations.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: variety
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:02 am ((PST))

"alimaxral" <albrooker@...> wrote:
> Can someome please explain why it is always recommended to have
such a
> long time on chicken before adding other meats slowly?
*****
Because most new rawfeeders are overly enthusiastic about introducing
new food and most times this kind of haste results in loose stools
which for most new rawfeeders is the Voice of Doom because they
haven't come to understand the relationship between what goes in and
what comes out.

When I am introducing raw, I usually begin with chicken because it's
almost always around but I start adding small amounts of other meats
quite promptly. I have also started with quail, with turkey, with
venison. I have never needed to stick to one meat protein for "such
a long time" but certainly if the dog requires a slow, steady,
incremental introduction to new things then that's the approach one
should take.

I don't see any specific value in loitering.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
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11a. Re: trying not working
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:08 am ((PST))

Droghedabullmastiff has unsubscribed.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (12)
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12a. Re: raw food compagnies in the USA
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:13 am ((PST))

h h <deedeekinsisme@...> wrote:
>it will indirectly affect us because the non-rawfeeders out there do
not know the difference between the two and will only see that now even
the FDA says that feeding raw is bad. :::sigh:::
*****
Heidi, the FDA already says feeding raw is bad. One of the basics most
rawfeeders have to address thoroughly is the attitude of
institutionalized anything towards alternative anything.

This may well be the single biggest obstacle to overcome.
Argh.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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13a. how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
Posted by: "Jay" jayrush44@yahoo.com jayrush44
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:31 am ((PST))

Hello everyone,
I have a English bulldog that we rescued over a year ago, she was
terribly neglected - almost 20! lb underweight with chronic Staph A.
skin infections, hypothyroidism and allergies. I discovered raw
feeding while trying to figure out a better way to keep her skin
conditions under control without continuous antibiotic use (of course
in combination with medicated bathing, thyroid meds, and
supplements). Since switching to raw diet about 2 mo ago I discovered
that she does not know how to chew using her molars. I know that
ground meat and bone is not as beneficial as whole pieces I just
cannot figure out how to teach her to chew. I did try to hold the
meat while she attempts to eat it but she just nibbled and pulled on
it with front teeth and when I hold the meat to the side of her mouth
toward molars she just tries to inhale it whole without any attempts
to chew it. After a while she gets frustrated and looses ability to
differenciate between my fingers and her food:) Then, I tried to give
her a really large chunk of meat thinking that I don't have to hold
it and she will work on it till she figures out how to chew. I am
glad that I did not leave the room! I turned around for few seconds
and she had 2/3 of 3 lb pot roast in her thoat, she looked like a
hairy anaconda swallowing a goat (how was that even physically
possible for a dog?). Luckily I was able to pull it out and my Missie
was just fine but I have not attempted to give her whole meat since
that traumatic episode (more traumatic for me then her I believe).
So, I was just wondering if anyone had different ideas, tips or
tricks on how I can safely teach her to chew? I would appreciate any
suggestions.
Rita

Messages in this topic (3)
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13b. Re: how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:49 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: DOESN'T MATTER IF THE ORIGINAL TEXT IS ABOVE OR BELOW YOUR SIG LINE, TRIM IT, PLEASE!

Simple answer..dont :)

Donts dont chew. They may gnaw away on food, but they dont chew like people.
Their jaw works one way, up and down, not side to side.

So feed Large meals, freeze them if you'd like. That slows down some dogs.
Even still dogs are desgined to rip and tear off large chunks of meat and
swallow them.

The other thing about holding the food, this can cause some dogs to eat
faster then if they're left alone (but still watched).

On Nov 27, 2007 12:28 PM, Jay <jayrush44@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> I have a English bulldog that we rescued over a year ago, she was
> terribly neglected - almost 20! lb underweight with chronic Staph A.
> skin infections, hypothyroidism and allergies. I discovered raw
> feeding while trying to figure out a better way to keep her skin
> conditions under control without continuous antibiotic use (of course
> in combination with medicated bathing, thyroid meds, and
> supplements). Since switching to raw diet about 2 mo ago I discovered
> that she does not know how to chew using her molars. I know that
> ground meat and bone is not as beneficial as whole pieces I just
> cannot figure out how to teach her to chew. I did try to hold the
> meat while she attempts to eat it but she just nibbled and pulled on
> it with front teeth and when I hold the meat to the side of her mouth
> toward molars she just tries to inhale it whole without any attempts
> to chew it. After a while she gets frustrated and looses ability to
> differenciate between my fingers and her food:) Then, I tried to give
> her a really large chunk of meat thinking that I don't have to hold
> it and she will work on it till she figures out how to chew. I am
> glad that I did not leave the room! I turned around for few seconds
> and she had 2/3 of 3 lb pot roast in her thoat, she looked like a
> hairy anaconda swallowing a goat (how was that even physically
> possible for a dog?). Luckily I was able to pull it out and my Missie
> was just fine but I have not attempted to give her whole meat since
> that traumatic episode (more traumatic for me then her I believe).
> So, I was just wondering if anyone had different ideas, tips or
> tricks on how I can safely teach her to chew? I would appreciate any
> suggestions.
> Rita
>
>
>
>
>

--
Scott

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Messages in this topic (3)
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13c. Re: how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:51 am ((PST))

Hi Rita,

Check the archives for gulping, and see my post just a few minutes
ago. It's for a smaller dog, but some of it applies. Since your dog
was so neglected and underweight, and she's new to raw, she might be
more apt to get as much food in as possible, extra quickly (although
that is somewhat normal anyway for wolves/dogs--they just don't chew
like us).

If she is really avoiding certain areas of her mouth and teeth,
though, you may want to make sure she doesn't have any bad teeth
causing her pain.

My guess is just that your idea of big and hers are different and you
need to feed much bigger still (and more complicated--that's an
important factor)--at least for awhile. What have you tried
exactly? How about a whole chicken or a bone-in beef or pork roast
(even bigger than what you fed previously), or a goat leg, or a half
a turkey...You can take it up when you feel she's had enough and feed
the remainder the next day, or you can let her eat enough for a
couple days and feed that way (sometimes it is suggested to build up
to that to avoid loose stools or digestive distress but you may have
no problem).

She will figure out how to eat! Just give her something big enough
that she has to think about and work on dismantling. She will
possibly calm down in time, and with practice. She is excited to be
getting enough real food for the first time in her life and she's not
sure yet if it's going to go away.

Hang in there!

Laurie

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14. I know it's not a miracle, but...
Posted by: "i_calado" i_calado@yahoo.com.br i_calado
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:46 am ((PST))

I have a big white shepherd and a miniature pinscher. I was sick and
tired of the giant smelly stools of the shepherd, until last week I
read on the internet about rawfeeding and it seemed totally logic.

I didn't wait, just read all that I could in one day, got bold and
gave raw chicken to my dogs. Bingo! I know it was not a miracle, but
the shepherd saved me all that awful cleansing right on the first
time.

Then I gave them liver and ground red meat with the chicken. Still
ok. No smelly excessive stools. And the shepherd scratches less
(would it be a side effect? He was always allergic - I don't know to
what.) The pinscher refused liver, but then I gave it first, and only
after he ate it I gave the chicken.

I know I should go slow, but I'm looking forward to try fish and
other meats.
That's it - I think you have a new fanatic.

Ivanir Calado - Brazil

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15. New member, Kim
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:47 am ((PST))

Hi Kim,
Nice to hear your success stories with your Siberians. You have great
sources for raw food. Soon I shall trek around and find sources here
near Portland, Oregon. I do not know the area that well being a
transplant from MN where I lived for most of my 68 years.

-----------------

Ive recently moved and now live not far from a
slaughterhouse and free range, chemical free poultry
farm. So, once I get a freezer Im going to dive in and
buy some different meat for the dogs that Ive not got
before.... can anyone suggest what to ask for direct?
--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

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