Feed Pets Raw Food

Thursday, December 13, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12374

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
From: Laura Atkinson

2a. Re: strange habits of dobes
From: blue eyed

3a. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
From: Sandee Lee
3b. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
From: jennifer mcfaden
3c. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
From: Laura Atkinson
3d. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
From: jennifer mcfaden
3e. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
From: Laura Atkinson
3f. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
From: jennifer mcfaden

4a. Re: Nanaimo meat suppliers
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: I have Cresteds too!
From: Michelle R

6a. Re: what did I do wrong?
From: Michelle R

7a. Re: meaty meat meals
From: Morledzep@aol.com

8.1. Re: fish oil
From: Morledzep@aol.com
8.2. Re: fish oil
From: spricketysprock
8.3. Re: fish oil
From: spricketysprock
8.4. Re: fish oil
From: Laura Atkinson

9a. Goat Meat Crisis resolved!
From: Mary Tinder

10a. Re: Once or twice a day..feeding
From: Sai Simonson

11a. Re: New & I did it!
From: marge
11b. Re: New & I did it!
From: Lauren Funaiole
11c. Re: New & I did it!
From: katkellm

12a. Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
From: Jai
12b. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
From: Sandee Lee
12c. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
From: Jai
12d. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
From: Sandee Lee


Messages
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1a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:13 pm ((PST))

Ok, that's IT. I'm going to have to insist on the courtesy of an FDA
(Food and Drink Alert) on some of these posts! <grin>
Now get over here and clean my keyboard....ooops, never mind, Frosty did it.

On Dec 12, 2007 7:43 PM, Michelle Morgan <enzo@whereismichelle.com> wrote:
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Debi C" <dcole6@...> wrote:
> >People are always telling me that feeding raw will make a dog
> > aggressive.>
>
> They are absolutely right. My Caucasian Ovcharkas (all raw fed for the
> past 7 years) are much more aggressive than other people's... When
> Citibank stock plummeted, Enzo, our oldest male, kept pushing me to buy
> more, more, more. Driving Barynya to the vet is a nightmare... she
> keeps rolling down the window and shouting "Outta Da Way Fathead!!" -
> at traffic cops. Tsitsilia pushed Ebbie and Lucky off her favorite spot
> on the porch the other day and told them if they didn't like it, they
> could go sit on a de-matting comb. Even our baby Dima, who pretends to
> be a loving, snuggly, 170 lbs of fluff, cannot be trusted with
> children. Every time the neighborhood kids get a new ball, she pops it
> with her teeth just to watch them cry.
>
> Anyways, that's what I tell people when they ask me if feeding a dog
> properly will make it into a bloodthirsty maniac :-)
>
> Michelle
>
>


--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. Re: strange habits of dobes
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:22 pm ((PST))

Yes I'm trying to put weight on mine too but introducing the fast day has seemed to help as well as feeding plenty lamb flank and some beef mince (the fatty stuff!) I would feed a bit of heart in with the venison just now. As for sweetbreads I have often wondered this! Not sure if its called the same thing in the uk?
Natalie


---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:32 pm ((PST))

It certainly will! It will give them the proper nutrition during a very
important period in both of their lives.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "jawstrength101" <jawstrength101@yahoo.com>

will the raw diet effect pregant or nursing dogs because i have one of
each???

Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
Posted by: "jennifer mcfaden" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:09 pm ((PST))

my mom raw feed but I notice she does not have or appear to have as much milk as last time when she was kibble feed?? any suggestions. she has 7 pups that are a week old today.

Jennifer McFaden
Free Spirit Kennel of Virginia

www.freespiritkennelofva.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 3:33:49 PM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] pregant or nursing dogs

It certainly will! It will give them the proper nutrition during a very
important period in both of their lives.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "jawstrength101" <jawstrength101@ yahoo.com>

will the raw diet effect pregant or nursing dogs because i have one of
each???

____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

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Messages in this topic (7)
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3c. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:39 pm ((PST))

Are the puppies lacking food? Or are they fed and content? Maybe
she's produce just the right amount for them?

Fenugreek, the herb, will bring in milk, but since it's already there
I don't know if that'll be much help.

Make sure she's getting lots of liquids. If you have to bait her
water with chicken or beef broth, bait it.

On Dec 13, 2007 12:34 PM, jennifer mcfaden <cadet972@yahoo.com> wrote:
> my mom raw feed but I notice she does not have or appear to have as much milk as last time when she was kibble feed?? any suggestions. she has 7 pups that are a week old today.
>
> Jennifer McFaden
> Free Spirit Kennel of Virginia
> www.freespiritkennelofva.com
>
>


--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


Messages in this topic (7)
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3d. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
Posted by: "jennifer mcfaden" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:29 pm ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.


thanks for the tip I try it she been dranking the goats milk I suppliment one the pups with so I been giving her a little in the morrings. i try the broth. the pups did not take the bottle today so she must had enough last night for them.

Jennifer McFaden
Free Spirit Kennel of Virginia

www.freespiritkennelofva.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Laura Atkinson <llatkinson@gmail.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 4:38:59 PM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] pregant or nursing dogs

Are the puppies lacking food? Or are they fed and content? Maybe
she's produce just the right amount for them?

Fenugreek, the herb, will bring in milk, but since it's already there
I don't know if that'll be much help.

Make sure she's getting lots of liquids. If you have to bait her
water with chicken or beef broth, bait it.


Messages in this topic (7)
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3e. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

If you're bottle feeding too, and they're not demanding as much milk,
she won't produce as much ...at least, that's what I've heard/read.
It's one of those demand/supply thing. Like raw feeding, unnecessary
supplementation of nursing puppies without some indication of the need
for it cause cause more headache than help.

On Dec 13, 2007 2:20 PM, jennifer mcfaden <cadet972@yahoo.com> wrote:
> EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.
>
>
> thanks for the tip I try it she been dranking the goats milk I suppliment one the pups with so I been giving her a little in the morrings. i try the broth. the pups did not take the bottle today so she must had enough last night for them.
>
> Jennifer McFaden
> Free Spirit Kennel of Virginia
> www.freespiritkennelofva.com
>


--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


Messages in this topic (7)
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3f. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
Posted by: "jennifer mcfaden" cadet972@yahoo.com cadet972
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:58 pm ((PST))

Today was the only the second day we offered tueday she would not nurse them at all, it was wenday moring when I offer the first bottle the two girls and one boy that were screeming, and the boy the only one who drank and the dam go figure,lol. I offer today to the boy to make sure he nursed I figure if had over night he reject the bottle and he did. Now I still giving the dam milk in a bowl to encourage her to drink but unsell need the pups will not have a bottle offered again unless it seem need.

Jennifer McFaden
Free Spirit Kennel of Virginia

www.freespiritkennelofva.com


____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

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Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: Nanaimo meat suppliers
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:41 pm ((PST))

We know what's right and what's wrong by looking at facts....something
that's missing entirely on Katie's site! :)

Facts will be found in the information provided on this list, in the sites
we continually recommend such as....
http://rawfed.com
http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html

We have discussed her nonsense repeatedly on this list.....
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/35662
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/35725
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/35795
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/35821
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/35824
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/41164
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/33962
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/33963
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/27033

And there is a rebuttal to that article found here....
http://rawfed.com./myths/rebuttal.html


Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "sarahliepins" <sarahliepins@yahoo.com>
>
> oh and i also wanted to ask about this website this lady really trashes
> this diet who to say whats right and whats wrong exactly?
>
> http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html
> <http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: I have Cresteds too!
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:09 pm ((PST))

I will answer "in between the lines" in purple.....

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html


----- Original Message ----
From: Justin Cole <watertestersocal@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 12:56:09 AM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] I have Cresteds too!

This is perfect! I have so many questions I dint know where to begin. Well first of all I'm in southern California
Awesome, I was born and rasied there, tho I live in good ole Mississippi now. I was born in Pomona, but lived mostly in Rancho Cucamonga/Alta Loma and Ontario.....I graduated from Etiwanda HS. :-) Good times! I have a cousin who has cresteds, she lives up in Nipomo (above Santa Barbara) I know if shes able, she would help you get into showing, there are also tons of folks in your area who both have Cresteds and show and can help get you started. I can and will help but we are geographically challenged and limited to just email contact....someone locally could do soooo much more for you.
had my Cresteds for almost a year shimoti (my male) and Katrina (my female) oh ya and then there is our little rescue Eugene were trying to find him a good home rite now.
I know almost everyone whos involved in Cresteds, who did you get your cresteds from?
am anxious to get on this raw diet Ive been wanting to show but I have a few problems we need to get over.
Personally, my best advice, is to just do it. Buy a freezer so you can stock up on good sales. You can go to the peirs and find great deals on wild caught fishes. You have tons of ethnic markets where you can find good un enhanced meats....So Cal is a wealth of food sources.
I have only been feeding raw for a few months but my kids have had venison, chicken, beef, turkey and pork. I was nervous and began with hamburger, I just balled up little meatball bite size piece and fed them.....then I waited. I was just certain someone was going to die, lol They didnt, tho I know now that a meal just of hamburger isnt the best way to go. Then I moved on to the dreaded chicken....I got a couple of fryers and quartered them, gave everyone a piece and watched and waited...certain someone would die. They didnt. Then I notived the teeth were whiter, less plaque bujild up. I noticed my one shaved puff who has ALWAYS had a horrible frizzy coat...wasnt so frizzy. My puffs I have in show coat...one has always had the BEST coat Ive ever seen....he looked even better, and the other 2 who were not clean at all, after spending the day digging under the flowers in the planter...even dirty, they had this sheen and sparkle. After a bath....I was
astounded at the difference I knew must be caused by the new diet. I have noticed my dogs who have always been typically too thin no matter how much kibble I fed them, looked good...no..not just good, they looked really great. They were building mucle mass and were lean, but extremely healthy looking. My kids who were always too fat, despite having them on WAY too expensive diet kibble from the vets.....magically within a month, were almost back to their ideal weights! And...you know, they eat those "horrid" and "deadly" chicken bones several tiems a week and they do just fine. :-) My picky eaters, are no more. I have solved so many problems with this diet I can not even begin to tell you how THRILLED I am. I know it isnt a cureall and I know it isnt going to fix everything by itself, but it is allowing my dogs the healthy systems they need to fix most of the problems themselves. I spend more time with my babies now, cuz I supervise meal times, but
its a fun sort of bonding time for us. I am currently feeding 13 cresteds, 1 australian shepherd and 2 cats, all on raw. Most are mine, some are fosters and rescues Ive taken in. I do private rescue and if I dont find them a home, I just keep them. They can live out their lives here, eating a fantastic diet and enjoying a romp out in the yard. They all get along, and so can all be out together, so its really no trouble. Tho it does get interesting and I have to get more creative when Ive got a bitch in season ..LOL I am full to my limit at the moment tho...no room for more. I passed on an exceptional breeding opportunity for one of my girls a few months ago because of this. :-( Oh well, heres always next year. :-)
First is socialization, the breeder I got them froom is getting old he has very good bloodlines but he dosent show much anymore and his dogs are lacking in social skills but they have come a long way. Shimoti is starting to clear up from his acne , I thought I had them on a good diet little did I know.
Yea, we all "think" we are doing what we're supposed to. Feeding the good expensive kibble and following our vets advice, after all they went to school for a very long time and would only give us the best advice for our animals...right? NOT in every case!!
Since taking him off kibble that had soy it has helped but now I want to take it a step further. Katrina has what looks like a rash on the inner part of her hein quarters, Im hoping the raw feeding will help all of this. Also my wife needs some convincing still of courser its hard
to get over all the myths of raw meat and bone.
Make sure to involve her, sit down together and read over the raw myths page on the groups website. There is a whole page of raw resource links, to recipes and websites and just a ton of interesting stuff. It is the COOKED bones that are dangerous..no cooked bones, no smoked or cured bones, those are the ones that WILL splinter. Raw edible bones and meat are what they are supposed to be eating. I have met with a great deal of ignorant and mean comments from members of my family and friends when they found out I was feeding raw. Im sticking to my decision, it is whats best for my dogs and thats what you have to know in your heart to make the switch. Just make up your mind, go buy a nice un enhanced chicken and just feed it to them. :-)
We know few people with crest eds in our neck of the woods however no one itno raw, so I would love to soak up as much info as possible I want to know everything there is to know about showing and feeding raw so lets start with your suggestion on a first meal?
Most folks suggest chicken, I didnt use chicken, but only because I didnt have any at the time. I started with venison (deer) because I live in the rural south and have lots of hunters willing to share. Actually their very first raw experience was hamburger....gave them some raw meatballs for breakfast. That nite they had chunks of venison. it all went over very very well. I did have some with runny tar like stools (naturally my white puff boy, LOL) But I know its because venison is very rich and as a first raw meal, it was a bit much. That and I also mixed 2 protiens on the same day for their first meal. LOL I did 2 big "no-nos" right off the bat, but I had very few with loose stools, most took to it very v ery naturally. I had minimal trouble. Their first week they had 3 different protein sources and I had very happy dogs with very little stool troubles.
While on kibble..I did notice about every 3 to 6 months, for no apparent reason, everyone would go thru a few days of vomitting and/or diarhea, like real explosive diarhea. Vet never found a reason, just treated with flagyl (tummy meds) to sooth irritated tummies...usually with held food for a day or so to calm everything down and then they were fine. I know it was the inapproprite diet of processed yucky kibble combined with following the <over> vaccination policy of my vet that was causing the upset. Fillers and colors and additives and chemicals...all that crap is just not good for them. Ive had less stool issues with my kids while on raw than I did on kibble. And I have ALOT of stools to deal with everyday feeding 14 dogs!
Which brings me to another good thing, stools are smaller, and they turn to white powdery dust within a few days, even the loose ones. :-)
also whats your take on fruits and veggies? My dogs love them.
I see no problem adding them as a treat. Its like, every once in a while I just really want a candy bar or ice cream or something..just some good ole junk food. If the dogs like them and you want to feed them, do it. Just do it in very minimal moderation, since they can not get any nutritional value from them. It might be a good source for you to use as a training treat or something. it is my suggestion if you do feed them, not to let them take up a portion of the diet which should be filled with yummy natural meats.
Also I want to show my dogs I think they are the greatest
Our own babies are always perfect, arent they? :-) Send me pics, if you can and pedigrees, I will help you, but I will be nice about it, I promise. :-) The pics should be with the dog standing, as if you were presenting him on the table for judging. Views from both sides, from the rear and from the front, all while hes standing as I said. Also some natural pictures, just out in the yard playing or something will give me an idea of the natural movement.
however others are quick to point out faults, I know there is know perfect dog but how do I know that Im not going to be showing my dogs in vein?
Even if your current dogs are not best in show winners (how many best in show winners are out there anyway...not many!!!) no effort to learn is ever in vein. It might be that perhaps conformation is not what your dog was meant to do, that does not eliminate all other competitive aspects of showing. You still have agility and obedience, both of which are important. if not more important than comformation because they test, not just how the dog is put together, but the mental ability as well as the communication and bond between owner and dog. There is no dog more beautiful than one working as a well oiled team with his owner, be it in the conformation ring, or the obedience ring or the agilty field. So "showing" can mean many things beyond just conformation. Do not let others discourage your wish to learn!!
I better stop here I might go on forever! Im so glad I met another crested owner who feeds raw. Thanks for the reply and all the info
Seems I am the one who went on "forever" LOL Please feel free to email me ANYTIME, if you have questions, or your wife has questions, both of you, contact me anytime, please! Also, check out my website, you can see my kids there, I have some win pictures from when I showed there. I havent really shown much. I went to my National specialty the American Chinese Crested Club show, back in May in OKC..my girl Secret took a 3rd in the HUGE bred by class one day, that was very exciting. Then last September I entered 4 of my kids at the regional show in Nashville, TN, the Chinese Crested Club of Nashville. I was even asked to judge the puppy match, which was a great and wonderful honor! But my puff boy Philbert, took 3rd in his bred by class, and Secret took 1st!! and my little hairless boy Indy took 2nd in a HUGE open hairless class and my puff bitch puppy took 2nd in her puppy class. So my kids did extremely well and I was soooooooo pleased! I LOVE to show.
I havent been able to due to finances....but things are looking much better for 08..already got a show planned in January, so Im hopful the rest of the year will just continue to improve. :-)

Im glad to meet another crested person too, I can imagine having another breed, these kids are just so great! :-)
Hope some of this info makes sense to you and will help you and your wife on your decision.
Michelle

Justin

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6a. Re: what did I do wrong?
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:09 pm ((PST))

Perhaps the other stuff has all been frozen prior to feeding??? Maybe the freshness of this "kill" you have provided is throwing them off??? Just guessing here.

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html


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7a. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:17 pm ((PST))


In a message dated 12/13/2007 8:25:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jamiedolan@gmail.com writes:

If your feeding to little bone I would watch and be careful of loose
stools. If your feeding too much, there stools may get very hard and they
may get a bit constipated.



Jamie is right.. BUT.. remember that only a very small portion of the overall
diet needs to be edible bone. And pork bones are entirely edible for all but
the very tiniest dogs.

There is no need to feed bones every day, or even every other day. Over-doing
bone can cause constipation and rarely impaction. And Under feeding bone
(less than 10% of the overall diet, not daily..) will cause looser stools than
normal, but will NOT cause diarrhea.

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


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8.1. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:17 pm ((PST))


In a message dated 12/13/2007 5:18:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jess.hamway@gmail.com writes:

My dog has been suffering from dandruff as well as an oily coat and a
dry nose. I just started giving him fish oil pills to see if they make
a difference... hopefully they will help rather than further disrupt
the O6 to O3 ratio. *fingers crossed.*



Jess,

i don't know about dandruff.. can't see it in the dust all over my house..
lol.

but i do know that when the dogs' coats dry out in the heat and in the worst
part of the winter feeding them fattier meat helps far more than fish oil.
But i do make the extra effort to remember to add salmon oil during these times
too..mostly.

Catherine R.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


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8.2. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:29 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> Jess,
>
> This screams "get a thyroid test" to me. Make sure it's a full panel.

haha Oh boy, not that again. I brought my dog in for $300 worth of
blood tests; everything came out beautifully. Unfortunately I don't
think it was the "full panel" you all recommend... even though I
specified it. grr. He'll have to wait another few months for me to
cough up the dough... (he is also approaching 11 yrs).

Messages in this topic (90)
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8.3. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:30 pm ((PST))


> Adding salmon oil for the larger benefits is a fine idea; adding fat to
> the diet may also help with dry skin.
> Chris O
>
Duck is on the menu!

Messages in this topic (90)
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8.4. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:57 pm ((PST))

Paying money for tests you don't need while not getting what you
really wanted is one of the things that REALLY irks me about some vet
offices.

www.itsfortheanimals.com has the info on the full thyroid
panel through Dr. Dodds. But we should proably take THAT conversation
to rawchat <G>
>
> haha Oh boy, not that again. I brought my dog in for $300 worth of
> blood tests; everything came out beautifully. Unfortunately I don't
> think it was the "full panel" you all recommend... even though I
> specified it. grr. He'll have to wait another few months for me to
> cough up the dough... (he is also approaching 11 yrs).
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


Messages in this topic (90)
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9a. Goat Meat Crisis resolved!
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:47 pm ((PST))

Chris, Jen and all, thanks for not making me feel really silly about
this. The neglected goat shoulder, "marinating" untouched on the
ground since Monday, was Rumble's prize when he greeted me this
evening. Carrying it around like he caught it himself,
he waited until I got home to demolish about half of it. Gratifying
and still fascinating to watch 'em chomp it down. The little
Mary T
with Rumble Dane, Boda and Lily

Messages in this topic (9)
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10a. Re: Once or twice a day..feeding
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:58 pm ((PST))

I am sure that work well for the dogs but I need a schedule.....brain
getting older, needs routine.:-)

Sai

Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:55 pm (PST)
Change it up. Keep them guessing. Sometimes i feed at noon, sometimes at
supper, sometimes later. sometimes early. No set time.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: New & I did it!
Posted by: "marge" marge_moriarty17551@yahoo.com marge_moriarty17551
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:58 pm ((PST))

Thanks for the encouragement! It is a bit unnerving at first!

First day and unnerved:
It is good to read about your success in switching to raw feeding. I am
also new to the group, had researched this for a while though. I agree
it is extremely unnerving! I finally took the plunge today and fed my
two mini poodles (ages 8 and 10) a chicken back. I only split one
between the two. Now I am terrified at what will happen. I am worried
I should have removed the skin..that they will get sick, etc. But boy
did they love it. Their ideal weight is 17# and I am horrible with
math, so I am still playing around with how much to feed them! I hope
they can tolerate the change as I am hopeful about the positive health
benefits. I anxious as anything and they are sleeping comfortably
after their big treat.


Marge

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: New & I did it!
Posted by: "Lauren Funaiole" LFUNAIOL@SIMIVALLEY.ORG lfunaiol
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:28 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.


Hi Marge,

I would feed each of them about 8 ounces a day and adjust the quantity as needed from there. Don't be terrified, they will be fine! I have switched many dogs to raw, and have never had any serious issues with it. They might have some soft poo for a while. If so, you can remove the skin from the chicken until they adjust.

Congratulations on the switch,

Lauren Funaiole

>>> "marge" marge_moriarty17551@yahoo.com> 12/13/2007 3:49 PM >>

I finally took the plunge today and fed my
two mini poodles (ages 8 and 10) a chicken back. I only split one
between the two. Now I am terrified at what will happen. I am worried
I should have removed the skin..that they will get sick, etc. But boy
did they love it. Their ideal weight is 17# and I am horrible with
math, so I am still playing around with how much to feed them! Recent Activity
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Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: New & I did it!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:18 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "marge" <marge_moriarty17551@...>
wrote:
> I should have removed the skin..that they will get sick, etc. But boy
> did they love it.

Hi Marge,
Most dogs don't need the skin removed from the chicken for a loose
stool free start. I think you did the best thing by presenting the
back as is. Backs are not real meaty, so i would think that removing
the skin would actually have made the meal too bony. If your dogs do
get loose stools, please try to remember that they are not sick.
Loose stools are an inconvenience and messy and a pain in the clean-up
and sometimes make the dog sad if its person gets all bent out of
shape, but loose stools are not diarrhea and are not a an indication
of sickness.

> Their ideal weight is 17# and I am horrible with
> math, so I am still playing around with how much to feed them!

The exact math of 2% of 17lbs is 5.44 ounces per day. So, i would
start at about 5-6 ounces per day because one of the things that can
possibly cause loose stools is too much food. You can adjust the
amount to suit your dogs as you go along. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
Posted by: "Jai" jredwing@windstream.net onesupercat
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:28 pm ((PST))

Hi,
My Dal Boo (1 of 4), had surgery to his bladder Thanksgiving eve. Huge hole
in it, and some small stones, abdomen was filled with 3 liters of urine and
blood. He survived, with a lot of pain. The results are back for the
stone, it is Urate stones. The kind most Dals get. The vet from the
emergency clinic where his surgery was, said that he needs a test to see if
he has any liver disease, or a shunt. She said he needs to take
Allopurniel. Also, needs exremely low protien, calcium, phosphorus, and
sodium. Her suggestion was Science Diet UD. She knows that I feed raw, and
also I am not interested in that food. So what do I do?

My question to you all is, does anyone have a Dal that has had this problem,
and just what did you do about feeding it, and did you give it this
medication? The vet said the raw diet is out. They have eaten nothing but
raw since Feb. 2007.

This is really scary, it has been 3 weeks since his surgery, and I wonder if
I am getting him another stone by still feeding raw, or any of the other 3
either? I just got the news from the vet this afternoon. No way can I
afford any more of these surgerys, actually not the first one either.
Thank you for any help you can give us.
Jai...>^.^<...

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:01 pm ((PST))

Jai,

The idea that protein is detrimental to a stone forming dog is nonsense!
You can't do any better than the high quality, high moisture protein found
in a raw diet. It is the purines that present the problem and they can
easily be controlled when feeding raw.

Here are a couple of messages from past discussions....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/118748
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141451

And a link regarding the fallacy of reducing protein.....
http://www.thedca.org/fallacy.html

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Jai" <jredwing@windstream.net>

She said he needs to take
> Allopurniel. Also, needs exremely low protien, calcium, phosphorus, and
> sodium. Her suggestion was Science Diet UD. She knows that I feed raw,
and
> also I am not interested in that food. So what do I do?

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

12c. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
Posted by: "Jai" jredwing@windstream.net onesupercat
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:18 pm ((PST))

Sandee,
Boo was extremely dehydrated when I got him to the vet emergency clinic.
His lips and tongue were a deep blood red. She said that was because he had
so little water in his veins that the heart was having trouble pumping this
thick blood thru his veins. His heart was beating 205 beats a minute. I
forget what his blood pressure was. He had 3 liters of IV, and did not pee
a drop. He absorbed it all.
How does one make sure they are drinking? They have several water bowls of
fresh water to choose from every day.

Thank you for your fine answer, I really need to dig into all this. Thank
you for posting the older messages, I appreciate it.
Jai...>^.^<...


Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Boo's $2500 surgery for stones


> Jai,
>
> The idea that protein is detrimental to a stone forming dog is nonsense!

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

12d. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:30 pm ((PST))

Jai,

Gosh, sounds awful. Glad he survived this and is doing ok now!

It is my understanding that the stones form when the urine is concentrated
which happens when a dog is dehydrated. A raw diet is high in moisture so
dogs generally drink less...not sure how to make them drink more. I wonder
if chicken broth would help?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Jai" <jredwing@windstream.net>
> Boo was extremely dehydrated when I got him to the vet emergency clinic.
> His lips and tongue were a deep blood red. She said that was because he
had
> so little water in his veins that the heart was having trouble pumping
this
> thick blood thru his veins. His heart was beating 205 beats a minute. I
> forget what his blood pressure was. He had 3 liters of IV, and did not
pee
> a drop. He absorbed it all.
> How does one make sure they are drinking? They have several water bowls
of
> fresh water to choose from every day.
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12373

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: An abundance of gas
From: Susanne MacLeod

2a. Re: first time raw - bottom wiggling fun
From: Andrea

3a. Re: brown teeth
From: Andrea
3b. Re: brown teeth
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: brown teeth
From: ginny wilken

4a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
From: Irene Clark
4b. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
From: Andrea
4c. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
From: Tina Berry

5a. meaty meat meals
From: Andrea
5b. Re: meaty meat meals
From: Jamie Dolan

6a. Re: Nanaimo meat suppliers
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: Studies
From: carnesbill

8.1. Re: fish oil
From: costrowski75
8.2. Re: fish oil
From: costrowski75
8.3. Re: fish oil
From: Laura Atkinson

9a. Re: what did I do wrong?
From: Casey Post
9b. Re: what did I do wrong?
From: Mary Tinder
9c. Re: what did I do wrong?
From: Jen S

10a. Re: chicken liver
From: costrowski75
10b. Re: chicken liver
From: Michelle R

11a. literature
From: rosey031801
11b. Re: literature
From: Lauren Funaiole
11c. Re: literature
From: carnesbill

12a. Re: 1st raw meal
From: merril Woolf

13. pregant or nursing dogs
From: jawstrength101


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: An abundance of gas
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:12 am ((PST))

Again...thanks so much Chris....I was worried my post may have been
overlooked. I LOVE these deer necks - you should see them. I drove 4
hours to get them...they are as big as their heads as they are sliced,
and LOADED with meat - just gorgeous. Joey has been fine since, but
that is exactly what happened I think, he took in some air...scared me
though. You're the best Chris!
Suz Kate and Fearless Joey!

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: first time raw - bottom wiggling fun
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:20 am ((PST))

> today was the first day for my lab pup (ive already started all the
> cats and im startin my other two tomorrow)

Holy cow, you already started the cats? Sista, sit back and relax
because you've done the hard part already!

> the last piece he swallowed was a little big for my liking
> but he didnt choke or anythin so all good.

Great, see all your fears were over nothing. I expect that even that
last bit wasn't really all that big either. Good job to both of you.

> i am planning on feeding him a chicken frame and leg in the morning
> then another quarter in the night.

I've never actually seen a chicken frame, but I imagine it to be
boney. Starting with boney meals will probably make sure you dont'
have loose stools, but in the future you want to make sure you are
feeding mostly meat with only a little bone. Especially for the
pupster.

> Does all this sound ok??????????????

Other than adding more meat to the meals it sounds good.

> for my cocker spaniel he has anal duct probs in that they have been
> manually emptied for awhile... and sometimes i see him having
> trouble with tryin to push one out (poo that is :) should i try and
> incorporate less bone for him??

Well, none of them need as much bone as you are offering, but firm
little poos are exactly what are going to help the anal gland
problem. I wouldn't feed him any differently than the others and you
may just see the problem go away on its own.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: brown teeth
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

It is likely that those spots on the teeth aren't getting gotten by the
food she's been eating. It might help to go over what she normally
eats and determine if you need to feed bigger or more akward meals.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kelly P" <picklesrfree@...> wrote:
>
> I noticed today that my year old dog has brown spots on two of her
> teeth on opposite sides of her mouth towards the back.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: brown teeth
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:34 am ((PST))

"Kelly P" <picklesrfree@...> wrote:>
> I noticed today that my year old dog has brown spots on two of her
> teeth on opposite sides of her mouth towards the back. Shes been raw
> fed since we got her at 12 mos so I'm confused
*****
Either she has tooth damage or--most likely--you are not giving her
meaty bones that touch those particular teeth. The way teeth get clean
is through physical contact with an abrasive, whether that is a bone, a
toothbrush, dental equipment, or a chew object like a Nylabone or Kong
or something similar. If there is no contact, there is no cleaning.
The food simply being in the mouth is not enough.

I recommend you rethink what you've been feeding, how you've been
feeding.
Chris O
Also, a dog that's a year old is in fact 12 months old. Which means
you've only had the kid for, like, hardly at all. Really now, how long
have you been feeding her raw food?
C

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: brown teeth
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:15 am ((PST))


On Dec 12, 2007, at 10:54 PM, Kelly P wrote:

> I noticed today that my year old dog has brown spots on two of her
> teeth on opposite sides of her mouth towards the back. Shes been raw
> fed since we got her at 12 mos so I'm confused as to why she has these
> brown spots. Any ideas? I looked in archives and did not find
> anything helpful
>


Depending on the individual's dentition and exact diet, uncleaned
spots can persist. That said, probably the biggest factor in stained
teeth these days is the distemper vaccine, which discolors
permanently in susceptible individuals.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
Posted by: "Irene Clark" ireneclark@gmail.com irenespoms
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:36 am ((PST))

OH MY GOSH MICHELLE! HOW DARE YOU MAKE ME LAUGH SO FREAKING HARD!!!!!!!! NOT
FREAKING FUNNY!!!! I AM ON MEDICAL LEAVE! WHAT IF YOU HAD CAUSED ME REAL
DAMAGE?!!!!!
Okay, I am new here, but I really do appreciate your humor and that was
great!
By the way, in one week I have learned that changing the diet to raw also
makes them dance and giggle.
Irene

On Dec 12, 2007 9:43 PM, Michelle Morgan <enzo@whereismichelle.com> wrote:

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>, "Debi
> C" <dcole6@...> wrote:
> >People are always telling me that feeding raw will make a dog
> > aggressive.>
>
> They are absolutely right. My Caucasian Ovcharkas (all raw fed for the
> past 7 years) are much more aggressive than other people's... When
> Citibank stock plummeted, Enzo, our oldest male, kept pushing me to buy
> more, more, more. Driving Barynya to the vet is a nightmare... she
> keeps rolling down the window and shouting "Outta Da Way Fathead!!" -
> at traffic cops. Tsitsilia pushed Ebbie and Lucky off her favorite spot
> on the porch the other day and told them if they didn't like it, they
> could go sit on a de-matting comb. Even our baby Dima, who pretends to
> be a loving, snuggly, 170 lbs of fluff, cannot be trusted with
> children. Every time the neighborhood kids get a new ball, she pops it
> with her teeth just to watch them cry.
>
> Anyways, that's what I tell people when they ask me if feeding a dog
> properly will make it into a bloodthirsty maniac :-)
>
> Michelle
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:41 am ((PST))

<snort>
Dangit! Now I have hot cocoa all over myself. You got me!

My favorite is the one who pops the kid's ball just to watch them cry.

heeheehee. . . go sit on a de-matting comb. . . .I'm going to be
snickering all day.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Michelle Morgan" <enzo@...> wrote:

> They are absolutely right. My Caucasian Ovcharkas (all raw fed for
> the past 7 years) are much more aggressive than other people's...
> When Citibank stock plummeted, Enzo, our oldest male, kept pushing
> me to buy more, more, more.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:10 am ((PST))

"My favorite is the one who pops the kid's ball just to watch them cry."

Okay - Baron does do this and then takes the ball away - dang - it must be
the raw!!!
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. meaty meat meals
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:46 am ((PST))

There's no hard and fast rule, except that you don't really *need* much
edible bone in the diet. I would imagine that most of us feed more
than 10% unless we make a concerted effort not to do so. Meaty meat
meals are just fine if your dog does well with them. Tycho didn't do
very well with them at first, but we just kept at it and now he digests
it fine. You might want to find some uncut pork necks if you want to
add non chicken bone to some meals. I find big pork necks at Mexican
Carnicerias pretty easily.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sheila" <schatzee@...> wrote:
>
> How often do you have to have bone in there meals? we were doing
chicken for about 8 days and started on pork today/ the pork i got was
boneless

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:24 am ((PST))

You can get loose stools if you feed too much meat and fat. I have to make
an effort to feed enough bone because I feed a lot of pig and cow and they
can not eat thoses bones. I think I actually need to start feeding more
bones to them.

If your feeding to little bone I would watch and be careful of loose
stools. If your feeding too much, there stools may get very hard and they
may get a bit constipated.

I need to feed some bone about twice a week to avoid overly loose stools.

Good Luck

Jamie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Nanaimo meat suppliers
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:24 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sarahliepins" <sarahliepins@...>
wrote:
>
> oh and i also wanted to ask about this website this lady
> really trashes
> this diet who to say whats right and whats wrong exactly?

Yeah, thats Katie's page. She's been around for years. She has a
serious bone/bacteria phobia and just can't get over it. She
fancies herself as being some kind of expert although she has never
fed a raw meal to a canine in her life.

Katie says:
"What started out as an unresearched and unsubstantiated diet that
qualified veterinarians dismissed as a fad, has now become a real
threat for the well-meaning dog lovers who are striving to give
their dog's the best."

I say:
There are somewhere around 10,000 members on this list alone. I
would bet the vast majority of raw feeders never heard of this
list. One would think that if so many dogs were dying from this
diet that there would occasionally be a post stating so. I don't
remember seeing one single post from someone saying this diet killed
their dog.

Katie says:
"Additionally, dogs who are not on a raw meat diet are still at risk
because of parasites and bacteria spread through feces at commonly
shared parks."

I say:
I haven't seen any great amount of posts from list memebers talking
about parasites or bacteria picked up from the raw diet. Does Katie
think that kibble fed or home made fed dogs don't have bacteria in
their feces? I haven't read about children or grandchildren of dog
owners getting parasites or bacteria from raw fed dogs. These
things don't happen and to claim they do is no more than promoting
hysteria.

Katie says:
"Veterinarians across the United States have grave concerns about
bones and raw food (BARF) in a dog's diet."

I say:
Many do and many don't. Most don't have a clue. The greatest
majority have never fed a raw diet. Most vets know nothing more
than they have removed some bones from a dogs digestive system
sometime in their career. They don't know if it was cooked bone or
not. They don't know if the bone would have digested normally if
left alone.

Katie says:
"History and current statistics show us that both wild and domestic
dogs that eat BARF can and do become very ill for a number of
reasons."

I say:
Where are these statistics? What studies? Who did these studies?
Kibble fed dogs don't become ill? Dogs fed a home made diet don't
become ill? I suspect if anyone actually did run a study it would
be found that raw fed dogs are the healthiest.

Katie says:
"There has been a significant increase in a variety of illnesses due
to a raw meat diet."

I say:
What are these illnesses? Increased from what level to what level?
Meaningless statements like this are very easy to make. Impossible
to prove. Katie is blowing smoke here.

Katie says:
"Most dogs that die from a BARF diet do not show signs of illness
until a few days before it kills them. This is true with
pancreatitis, and with the raw chicken or turkey necks and backs,
which injure the stomach and intestines."

I says:
Exactly or even very approximately how many dogs have died of
injuries from poultry back or necks injuring their stomach or
intestines? I'm not saying it has never happened. I am saying its
more likely the dog will die from falling down stairs in the home.

Katie says:
"Any initial results they might see with a raw meat diet are a
result of an "absence" of one or more ingredients of the kibble -
NOT the "presence" of raw meat."

I say:
There is probably a lot of truth in that statement. It makes no
difference.

Katie says:
"I am very much in favor of home-made diets made with cooked meat
and grains, raw veggies and fruits, as long as you have researched
your dog's current health status and breeding history if possible."

I say:
See? Katie still thinks dogs are omnivores. She still can't get
over her high school home-ec class teaching that we need our veggies
to be healthy. I don't know what health status or breeding history
would keep a dog from eating an appropriate diet.

Katie says:
"The most compelling evidence are the growing number of dogs I have
known to actually die from a raw turkey or chicken back/neck tearing
apart their stomach. Intestinal parasites from the raw meat causing
a slow death or severe illness. Female dogs on a raw meat diet are
more commonly dying while giving birth to a litter."

I say:
Funny, I have been studying the raw diet for about 6 1/2 years and I
have never run across one single case. I'm sure there must be a
few, but I never ran into them. The ones I did "kinda" run into
turned out to be cooked bones. Most ended up being something like a
tennis ball or a rag or something other than bones. I have never
seen any evidence that raw fed dogs are more likely to die of damage
from parasites. I have never bred dogs so I can't answer her claim
about giving birth but I don't think it has any more credibility
than any other of katie's outrageous claims.

Katy says:
"Throughout my research, I have interviewed and collected data from
several top veterinary universities and nutrition experts with
degrees in science and biology. Not one of these credited experts
could honestly say that a raw meat and/or bone diet for domestic
dogs was anywhere near the realm of safe."

I say:
I also bet that not one of them ever fed a raw diet to a dog. Even
experts can be bone/bacteria phobic. I suspect the experts are even
more likely to be phobic about raw feeding because of their lack of
experience.

Katie says:
"In addition, I have not found a holistic practitioner or raw meat
advocate that can provide evidence that raw meat actually benefits
the dog."

I say:
I strongly suspect she just hasn't looked very hard. After several
years of exaustive searching, I have never found any scientific
study done by anyone that states that a kibble diet is more healthy
than a raw diet. Kibble is the FAD diet. It's only been around for
50 years or so and has only been popular for less than that. A raw
diet has been around for millions of years and proves itself
continuously.

Katie says:
"New studies are coming out frequently - all opposed to raw meat and
bone diets."

I say:
I'd like to see some of those studies. I don't believe they exist.
I think Katie is blowing smoke again. She should be getting better
at it. She has been doing it for years now.

Katie says:
"Dr. Billinghurst admittedly has never done any studies on wolves or
wild dogs."

I say:
Katie is probably right about Dr. B. BUT there have been many many
peer review studies over the last 50 years on the diet of wild
wolves. This stuff is not difficult to find. I'm sure if Katie
applied her self JUST A LITTLE she could come up with these
studies. I don't think she wants to.

Katie says:
"I have a wolf sanctuary, and the truth is that wild-born wolves
taken into captivity are typically malnourished."

I say:
"I think that is probably a true statement. Healthy wolves won't be
captured. However they are not malnourished because of their diet.
They are malnurished by diminished prey availability and habitat.
Most wolves taken into captivity are also probably injured and
possibly have gone no telling how long without eating.

Katie says:
"Most people *assume* that because wild dogs don't have the
opportunity to cook their food, that nature has set up the perfect
diet for them. This is simply not true.

I say:
I gotta argue with Katie here. If nature had not set up the proper
diet for them, they would have died out thousands of years ago.

Katie says:
"We know from their carcasses that they die of splintered fowl bones
and have very bad dentalia (dental problems)."

I say:
Baloney

Katie says:
"As for the statement that raw meat is a biologically correct food,
Humans have survived healthfully on cooked foods for thousands of
years. It is more than safe to say that diseases such as Cancer are
not caused by cooking your meat."

I say:
We don't know how healthy we would be if we never ate cooked meat.
I know there are people around who eat only raw meat and veggies.
They are very healthy people. I don't think, as Katie says, that
it's safe to say that diseases such are cancer are caused by cooked
meat. I think there are studies that prove otherwise. I remember
one study I saw about a years ago saying that grilled steaks have a
substance on the charred surface that MIGHT cause cancer.

Katie says:
"However, I have been told by experienced veterinarians and
nutritionists that they all have in common - they are extremely
unbalanced and also put your dog at risk of contracting dangerous
bacteria and parasites."

I say:
I don't think she has ever talked to a veterinarian or canine
nutritionist who is experienced in feeding a raw diet. I have asked
vets what is unbalanced about a raw diet and eventhough they tell me
it's unballanced, they can't tell me specifically what is
unballanced about it. I think 10,000 raw feeders feeding a prey
model diet for years to healthy dogs would disprove these so called
expert's claims.

And finally Katie says:
"This is not my own opinion, but that of the top veterinary
universities and true nutritional experts. Anyone to deny there is
risk, is fooling themselves!"

I say:
After feeding my dogs a raw diet for over 5 years with no incidents
(and I feed a lot of backs and necks), I am convinced it is safe. I
challenge Katie to feed one of her dogs a raw diet for 6 months.
She will switch the other dogs long before the 6 months is up.

Dang! I didn't know this would end up being quite this
long. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Studies
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:25 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, John and Jeni Blackmon
<jonjeni777@...> wrote:
>
Are there any studies that show how raw food improves the life
> span of the dogs lives? How it makes them live longer and
> healthier lives?

Not exactly but close. There is a study done by 2 dutch vets that
showed that dogs fed any diet that was not commercial lived an
average of 32 months longer than dogs fed commercial diets.

http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapySummary.pdf

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8.1. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:46 am ((PST))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:>
> >However, the ratio should be 4:1 (Omega 6 to Omega 3).
>
> Hi,Chris. I tweaked diet and most i can do was 2.75:1
(omega6:omega3)
*****
Yassy, stop using charts to feed your dog. Clearly it is making you
crazy. Just tell me: is the meat you are feeding primarily
grassfed? Is the poultry you feed primarily free-ranging? Is the
fish you feed wild caught salmon, mackerel, herring, sardines or
anchovies?

If yes, than you do not have to supplement with fish oil.

If no, then you certainly can continue to supplement with fish oil if
you desire to.

Furthermore, the way you take weight off Palette, assuming her
thyroid is performing properly, is to feed her less food. Tell her
hunting has been terrible, all the deer and elk and mountain goats
have gone to winter pastures and only the bison are left and the snow
is not deep enough yet to slow them down so for the time being food
will hard to come by.

Assemble her meal, then remove some of it. Put the take-away into a
baggie and after a few meals a taking away you'll have accumulated
enough miscellanous food to be another meal. Feed it--no waste.

You can continue to feed what you are accustomed to feeding: JUST
FEED LESS. Feed less each meal, feed fewer treats, find rewards that
are not food-based.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (86)
________________________________________________________________________

8.2. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:04 am ((PST))

"spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...> wrote:>
> My dog has been suffering from dandruff as well as an oily coat and a
> dry nose. I just started giving him fish oil pills to see if they make
> a difference...
*****
Salmon oil does not fix bad coats directly; it works on the immune
system and nervous system to address all manner of health issues. If
you are not feeding as wisely as you could be, if there are
environmental issues you are not taking into consideration, if your dog
has unaddressed health issues, then salmon oil alone is not likely to
restore your dog's skin problems.

Adding salmon oil for the larger benefits is a fine idea; adding fat to
the diet may also help with dry skin.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (86)
________________________________________________________________________

8.3. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:11 pm ((PST))

Jess,

This screams "get a thyroid test" to me. Make sure it's a full panel.

On Dec 13, 2007 4:57 AM, spricketysprock <jess.hamway@gmail.com> wrote:
> My dog has been suffering from dandruff as well as an oily coat and a
> dry nose. I just started giving him fish oil pills to see if they make
> a difference... hopefully they will help rather than further disrupt
> the O6 to O3 ratio. *fingers crossed.*
>
> Jess&Toby
>


--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious


Messages in this topic (86)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: what did I do wrong?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:50 am ((PST))


> My dogs are ALL turning up their noses at the fresh goat that I and
> neighbor butchered this weekend. They've eaten goat that the pro
> butcher did up for us...

What did you do wrong? You got dogs who are ungrateful serpent's teeth,
that's what!

Seriously, it may just smell weird to them...do you have someplace you can
bury it outside shallowly? Nothing like a little "earth marinade" to make
something weird more appealing...

Casey

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: what did I do wrong?
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:09 am ((PST))

Yep, a bunch of maybes. I wouldn't fret so but since it took
mustering my courage (and support from y'all) to bring it to
the "table." I wanted everyone to like it ;^)

Goat was less than 1 year old. This piece has not been frozen. But
they ate the fresh organ meat before it hit the ground!

Consider this: My neighbor's wife recoiled prior to seeing it
saying it "smelled" like a billy. And it was. There was some
mention (on the butchering website) about castrating prior to
butchering but we did not do this. Something about "tainting" the
meat but I assumed that was for human consumption. Can't imagine any
self respecting wolf refusing male meat.

I'll look for some Salmon oil tonight. I put some cuts in the goat
shoulder this morning to hopefully release some of the fresh sent.
This piece was not frozen so that too might have something to do.
It's been sitting, decorating the deck and yard, barely touched
since Sunday. I think I'm the only one who will touch it.

Mary T

> There are a bunch of maybes. You might have to start eliminating
> them. Or quit fretting and just try again.
>
> I'm sorry the event was such a let down. Bummer indeed.
> Chris O
>


Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: what did I do wrong?
Posted by: "Jen S" zordan@optonline.net sigp2301
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:45 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Dolan" <jamiedolan@...> wrote:

>
> Many will think Im a little nuts, but I am really really lax with
> leaving meat out. I'd just go ahead and leave some of it out at room
> tempature for a day or more and see if they like it better then.
> Normally the longer meat sits on the counter, the more excited they
> get about it. It never makes them sick (or us, we eat it too).
>
>

Ditto. And once it is outside for him (where he takes his meals), it
is out there forever. I don't go picking it up off the lawn if he
doesn't eat or finish it. He usually prefers it marinate for a day or
two and get a bit stinky. To each his own, I guess... but he doesn't
get any more until that one's gone.

I gave him a whole rabbit once. Once. About two weeks after he got
the rabbit, a new (vegetarian) friend of ours was visiting at our
house for the first time. It was July, and hot out. We were sitting
out on the deck enjoying a nice homebrew, when here comes my dog.
Now, you have to picture this. He is a German Shepherd, would pass
for a "Shiloh Shepherd" if the AKC recognized the breed. He is long
haired, 109 lbs, and goofy as hell (heck?). He is young, so still
very much puppy-like. He comes trotting over to her with this rabbit.
Not the whole rabbit mind you. It was the head, front legs and rear
end all held together by the pelt. It was covered in protein, and it
STUNK! He dropped it at her feet, and I didn't think we would ever
see her again.

If she can get used to it, anybody can.


JenZ

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> Wondering whether the dogs might be onto something in terms of the
chicken
> livers? Maybe they' know NOT to eat them (like cats suspect
poison). Just
> thinking here of the function of the liver especially for factory
bred
> chickens???
*****
Cats are suspicious of new. If they've never eaten poison they're
not likely to try.

It's possible of course that you have run into a streak of crappy
chicken livers but my guess is you have not. I suspect it's texture
or temperature or smell or unappealing flavor (as opposed to the
taste of danger); you may also have contributed to the dislike by
inordinate fussing.

If chicken liver is a consistent no-go, try beef or veal or pork or
turkey liver. Remember, liver's only responsible for 3%-5% of the
menu, so you do not have to feed it in quantity. I can't believe
that a plop of liver hidden in a larger plop of ground meat will go
uneaten.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:16 am ((PST))

LOL...I tried to introduce a tiny itty bitty single diced piece of liver, in the middle of ground beef, just as Chris suggested. I have also hidden it among a pile of venison, or chicken, or turkey or whatever...I always find the tiny itty bitty piece of liver sitting alone. Its become quite a challenge. I have two that refuse to eat any type of liver (Ive tried, beef, goat, chicken, turkey, pork and duck) , at all, under any circumstances Ive presented so far. The rest...would eat buckets of the stuff if Id let them. I have not tried it dried, and I have not tried it diced and frozen into little treat cubes either, so I am still exploring options...

My aussie, goes so far as to not only refuse liver, but he wont eat anything the liver has touched. :-)

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html


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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. literature
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:09 am ((PST))

I have a dog grooming shop. I have convinced lots of people to do the
switch from kibble to raw. I would like to be able to hand my clients a
tangible piece of paper that it not limited to my opinion. Is such a
thing out there. I would purchase them if it is available. Please email
me if there is pamplets anywhere.
Thanks,
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: literature
Posted by: "Lauren Funaiole" LFUNAIOL@SIMIVALLEY.ORG lfunaiol
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:44 am ((PST))

Hi Cheryl,

www.usrmb.net has some flyers you can hand out.

Lauren Funaiole

>>> "rosey031801" <rosey031801@sbcglobal.net> 12/13/2007 8:31 AM >>>

I have a dog grooming shop. I have convinced lots of people to do the
switch from kibble to raw. I would like to be able to hand my clients a
tangible piece of paper that it not limited to my opinion. Is such a
thing out there. I would purchase them if it is available. Recent Activity
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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: literature
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:44 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rosey031801" <rosey031801@...>
wrote:
>

You can print my web page and hand it out if you wish. It's not
pretty but I've been told its useful.

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: 1st raw meal
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:10 am ((PST))

> We will be traveling to mom's for the holidays, and she (and
> especially brother) are not ok with Raw. Is it ok to switch her to
> kibble while we are there and back to raw when we come home? We go up
> about once a month for a weekend, so this switch would happen
> repeatedly. I know it is not ideal, but is it ok?
>
> Holly

I travel and stay with non raw feeders often and whether you feed raw or kibble should
make no difference when you stay with friends or rels.

In a nutshell, feeding while on the road is easy.
Bring an ice-chest with your dogs food inside.
At meal time, feed in a crate in your vehicle and leave the dog in it until he's finished.
Your relatives won't have to see you feeding your dog and your dog still gets his usual fun
diet.

Just because someone is 'not ok' with raw doesn't mean you have to feed a less than
optimal diet as a result.
If you can't feed in a crate in your car, feed in a crate in the garage or in the side yard or
where ever.

I'm playing catch-up here as I have been out of town for a week at a non-raw feeding
friends place. My dogs ate in the car. No fuss and no bother.

Merril


Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13. pregant or nursing dogs
Posted by: "jawstrength101" jawstrength101@yahoo.com jawstrength101
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:22 am ((PST))

+++Mod note: pls sign emails +++++++

will the raw diet effect pregant or nursing dogs because i have one of
each???

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12372

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: chicken liver
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

2.1. Re: fish oil
From: spricketysprock


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:49 am ((PST))

Re: She needs parmesan and egg to eat chicken liver...

Wondering whether the dogs might be onto something in terms of the chicken
livers? Maybe they' know NOT to eat them (like cats suspect poison). Just
thinking here of the function of the liver especially for factory bred
chickens???

Up until know, I've been sprinking a tad of garlic powder on them and that
seems to "work" too.

Carol

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


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Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2.1. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:18 am ((PST))

My dog has been suffering from dandruff as well as an oily coat and a
dry nose. I just started giving him fish oil pills to see if they make
a difference... hopefully they will help rather than further disrupt
the O6 to O3 ratio. *fingers crossed.*

Jess&Toby

Messages in this topic (83)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12371

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Thawed out deer bones on porch
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Raw diet influencing behavior
From: Giselle
2b. Re: Raw diet influencing behavior
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Re: Once or twice a day..feeding
From: Michelle R

4a. Re: strange habits of dobes
From: arabianbluedobe

5a. chicken liver
From: tiffany.contempopainting
5b. Re: chicken liver
From: Yasuko herron
5c. Re: chicken liver
From: Giselle
5d. Re: chicken liver
From: jennifer_hell

6a. big feeds, weight gain and canon butt
From: Mary Tinder
6b. Re: big feeds, weight gain and canon butt
From: Giselle

7.1. fish oil
From: Yasuko herron
7.2. Re: fish oil
From: costrowski75
7.3. Re: fish oil
From: Erika
7.4. Re: fish oil
From: Yasuko herron

8a. what did I do wrong?
From: Mary Tinder
8b. Re: what did I do wrong?
From: costrowski75
8c. Re: what did I do wrong?
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
8d. Re: what did I do wrong?
From: Jamie Dolan

9. Nanaimo meat suppliers
From: sarahliepins

10a. Studies
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

11. brown teeth
From: Kelly P

12a. Re: I have Cresteds too!
From: Justin Cole

13. first time raw - bottom wiggling fun
From: Jessica Bryan

14. (no subject)
From: sheila


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Thawed out deer bones on porch
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:54 pm ((PST))

"Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@...> wrote:
>
it was
> thawing, but tonight it should freeze back up again....the meat won't
> go bad will it?
*****
Probably not in your lifetime.
At least not so your dogs would notice.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Raw diet influencing behavior
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:55 pm ((PST))

Hi, Sai!
I don't know that much about Borzoi temperament, but any Newfy I
ever have owned would have reacted the same way in the same situation, and
done pretty much the same as your dog did to protect me and a pack mate,
whether they were intact or not, male or female.

Newfies are also pretty laid back and gentle dogs, especially as adults. The
same dog that would greet, lick and lean on any stranger and his dog coming
upon them and me in a friendly way, would insert themselves between me and
any person or dog acting in a hinky way, and do what was necessary to
protect us from a perceived threat.

Most dogs are masters at reading body language, whether its canine or human,
they are just so much better at it seeing it and reacting to it than we are.
And then, there's their whole scenting ability, which we cannot even guess
at what they can perceive from moment to moment.

Also, was this on, or very close to, your 'home territory', where you and
your dogs all walk frequently?

Its not about the raw, its about innate protectiveness and canine ability
and perceptiveness. I think it was about the nature and the situation of the
threat, not that your dogs are now raw fed.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey


On Dec 12, 2007 7:37 PM, Sai Simonson <saiczarina@comcast.net> wrote:

> The all raw diet has turned my gentle, leaning 110 lb recently neutered
> Borzoi into a snarling protector. This morning on the walk a very large
> (about 100 lb male) came tearing out to the street snapping and barking
> at my Zoi girl and me. Lexi roared into action. I have only heard him
> bark a couple times in his nine years, but he barked, snarled, and then
> lunged to the end of my sweetie's leash with many teeth showing. Being a
> strong male, Hank held on to Lexi and the intruder was snagged by his
> owner. Meanwhile, the whole incident stopped the flow of traffic on what
> we call the Southgate Freeway....a very narrow neighborhood street that
> is the shortcut to the High School at the end of the block.
>
> Sai
> ==============
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Raw diet influencing behavior
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:56 pm ((PST))

What does this have to do with feeding your dog a species appropriate diet?
He encountered a situation that was threatening and reacted normally.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sai Simonson" <saiczarina@comcast.net>

> The all raw diet has turned my gentle,leaning 110 lb recently neutered
> Borzoi into a snarling protector. This morning on the walk a very large
> (about 100 lb male) came tearing out to the street snapping and barking
> at my Zoi girl and me. Lexi roared into action. I have only heard him
> bark a couple times in his nine years, but he barked, snarled, and then
> lunged to the end of my sweetie's leash with many teeth showing.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Once or twice a day..feeding
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:05 pm ((PST))

I feed when Im home.....sometimes they get breakfast and dinner...sometimes just breakfast, sometimes just dinner....I have no motive behind this other than I work all day....sometimes I have meetings afterwork, so I will be sure to feed something for breakfast that morning, so I dont come home late to "starving" kids....because if Im real late, I dont want to feed and then have messy clean up on aisle 2 in the middle of the nite. :-) Thats my motive for not feeding late at nite. By late I mean, like after 8ish..I get up at the crack of "why the heck am I awake" so I go to bed early. My kids need to be eating by 7, so I have time to let them potty and have outside time and I do clean up, feed myself, do dishes, and all that other blah blah blah household stuff.

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html


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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: strange habits of dobes
Posted by: "arabianbluedobe" arabianbluedobe@yahoo.com arabianbluedobe
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:06 pm ((PST))

Yea I am aware of the abilities of my dogs to train me. LOL I do give
them the same meal until they eat it. I do not cater to them, other
than trying to give pleasure out of eating. Right now I am getting tons
of free venison, too much to waste the oppurtunity.
I think for at least some of my dogs it has something to do with what
they were started on. My first ines I started on chicken, then I got
the free meat, so when I started the rest I used the venison. Now the
ones started on venison love it hate chicken, ones started on chicken
love it and turkey and will eat the venison reluctanctly, after making
sure that is all they will get. So Maybe with mine it is just
preference of what they think they know.
My red male Dobe is the one who really seems to wish the venison was
gone and I am preparing him for a show. I need him to put on weight, a
lot. They rest are good.
Also off this topic but I bought some sweetbreads at my local HEB for
for $1.29 LB and the beef heart is $1.28 lb. Is the heart needed with
the venison or can I skip it until my venison supply runs out? Are
sweet breads organs? Can I feed a meal of it or should I give just a
little? Thanks for all the help, April

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5a. chicken liver
Posted by: "tiffany.contempopainting" tiffcurran@gmail.com tiffany.contempopainting
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:30 pm ((PST))

Hi guys I have another question. Sorry.
So I tried Rocco on chicken liver today. He wanted no part of it. I
also bought some beef liver so I will try that. Are they all the same
nutritionally(is that even a word).he likes chicken hearts so could
that replace the liver or is it different. Not quite sure what muscle
is.how much liver for a 27 lb guy. Sorry guys. Ill get it eventually.
Tiffany

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5b. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:56 pm ((PST))

> I tried Rocco on chicken liver today. He wanted no part of it.

Hi,my dog isjust like that if liver alone was fed as is. She(my dog) needs Egg to feed pork liver.

You can try liver mixed with either Egg or Tripe if you tried either of the two.That may help.

if not,you can try temperature change of the food;some dog like the liver to be fed frozen.

if that did not work,you can do searing just a bit,and lessen the searing as the dog gets used to the taste.

>I also bought some beef liver so I will try that. Are they all the same nutritionally(is that even a word).

No,each is different.all vitamin amount is different too.

Go to www.nutritiondata.com and search item and you find what is different in each different livers.

>he likes chicken hearts so could that replace the liver

Unfortunately no. Liver and heart are different. You can feed different kind of liver instead of chicken liver if yourdog had no go no matter what you try though.

>Not quite sure what muscle is.

Ok,you can think that Boneless meat can be fed instead of animal heart or Animal tongue.all those 3 are in same category of 80% feeding guideline.

>how much liver for a 27 lb guy.

How much weigh isideal for your dog? 27lb??

If so, 27x16x0.02=8.64oz daily if 2% feeding

And out of that amount;lets bump up to 9oz daily intake, 10% is organ which is about 0.9oz almost 1oz

So, if your dog is on ideal weight half ounce will be liver andthe other half ounce being kidney etc.

yassy



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5c. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:06 pm ((PST))

Hi, tiffany!
All livers are somewhat similar, having the same purpose, but
are subtly different. All prey animals and their parts are "perfect" in
their own way.

Its the reason why variety of proteins and body parts are very important to
obtain and feed, over time.

Its not stressed in recommendations to very new to raw feeders, because its
more important at first to get the dogs and owners adjusted and acclimated
to one protein at a time, before starting to add more variety.

Have you tried warming the liver in warm water? Freezing it and feeding it
partly or completely frozen? Searing it slightly in a very hot oven?
Pureeing or chopping it and mixing it with ground meat or tripe or cheese or
ketchup or some stinky canned fish?

Liver is liver - there is no substitute, except one type of liver for
another. Liver makes up a small - 5-7% of the total diet - but indispensable
part in the dog's nutritional health.

3% of 27 lbs = 12.96 oz per day.
5% of 12.96 oz = 0.648000001 oz per day
OR
12.96 oz per day x 7 = 5.68 oz per week
5% of 5.68 oz = 4.536 oz per week

Heart is fed as meatymeat, not organ. So are gizzards, and tongue, and
tripe.

Again, liver is a small, but essential part of the entire raw diet. How much
you feed at one time, and how frequently and from which animals, can vary a
lot depending on how you want to feed it. As long as it balances out over
weeks or even months, you're good to go.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey


On Dec 12, 2007 11:26 PM, tiffany.contempopainting <tiffcurran@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi guys I have another question. Sorry.
> So I tried Rocco on chicken liver today. He wanted no part of it. I
> also bought some beef liver so I will try that. Are they all the same
> nutritionally(is that even a word).he likes chicken hearts so could
> that replace the liver or is it different. Not quite sure what muscle
> is.how much liver for a 27 lb guy. Sorry guys. Ill get it eventually.
> Tiffany
>
>
>


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5d. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:07 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:

> Hi,my dog isjust like that if liver alone was fed as is. She(my
dog) needs Egg to feed pork liver.
>
> You can try liver mixed with either Egg or Tripe if you tried
either of the two.That may help.
>

My girl is the same, but she actually sometimes eats venison liver on
its own. She needs parmesan and egg to eat chicken liver. So venison
liver is at least somewhat tasty,on some days, it seems. Lol!!

Jennifer

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6a. big feeds, weight gain and canon butt
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:26 pm ((PST))

Thanks Giselle,
so how to ease into the big feeds and avoid cannon butt?
Mary T

Messages in this topic (25)
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6b. Re: big feeds, weight gain and canon butt
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:45 pm ((PST))

Hi, Mary!
Its best to take it slow, over a period of several months.

I'd suggest you start by;
1) Gradually making one meal smaller and the other larger, until you're
feeding just one meal a day.
2) Vary the time of day you feed that meal.
3) Feed a slightly bigger than usual meal one day, then a slightly smaller
meal than usual the next.
4) Gradually increase the size of one day's meal, and decrease the alternate
day's meal, until you are feeding a meal large enough for two days, then
nothing the next.
5) Increase one day's meal and gradually decrease two day's meals, until you
are feeding a meal large enough for three days and nothing, or just a small
snack or bony chewy on the 2nd or 3rd days.
6) Offer a really BIG meal, several days worth, see how much of it your dog
eats at one time, then take up the leftovers and feed nothing for a few
days, depending on how much food he ate. Offer a tiny snack meal or bony
meal sometime in between.
7) Vary the size of the meals you offer, feeding BIG Food or Gorge meals a
few times a month, and smaller meals or snack meals in between.
8) Back off to the previous feeding schedule anytime your dog, or yourself,
are uncomfortable with the process, or outcomes.

Wa-La!

Its a process, you and your dog should be able to enjoy the journey, as well
as the destination, or stop somewhere that he's most comfortable along the
way.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey


On Dec 12, 2007 11:58 PM, Mary Tinder <mtinder@tinderco.com> wrote:

> Thanks Giselle,
> so how to ease into the big feeds and avoid cannon butt?
> Mary T
>
> __._,_
>
>


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7.1. fish oil
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:26 pm ((PST))

Hi,I was browsing web bit and came across omega3,omega6 article from petcenter.com

It said that diet should have more omega 6 than 3.

Mine that I tried to change from next week had more omega3 than 6,and it was reversed number;I have more omega3 than 6 so,I am thinking about stop fish oil,and back to how I fed organ.

I feed 4 fish meal,8 red meat meal,2 poultry meal with usually 2 Egg in a week.

What I tried to change was organ sidedish.I tried to feed more 4legged animal liver than poultry parts and liver and the number got reversed.

Before that change,the diet without fish oil had 3 times more omega6 than omega3.

I read that it does not need to be on the ratio all that time but better around 1:5(5 being omega6),but need to have omega6 more than omega 3.

I am not freaking out with this article or anything but it was just made me "think" if I should stop giving fish oil.

Anybody NOT feeding fish oil? How are the dogs? Without fish oil,still coat is as shiny and,looks healthy overall?

And what are your feeding in average like? You feed quite lot of red meat and tiny poultry per week in average??

Just curious.

yassy


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7.2. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:47 pm ((PST))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,I was browsing web bit and came across omega3,omega6 article
from petcenter.com
>
> It said that diet should have more omega 6 than 3.
>
> Mine that I tried to change from next week had more omega3 than
6,and it was reversed number;I have more omega3 than 6 so,I am
thinking about stop fish oil,and back to how I fed organ.
*****
Yes, it is natural that there should be more 6 than 3 in a healthy
diet. However, the ratio should be 4:1 (Omega 6 to Omega 3). In a
typical diet based heavily on grainfed livestock, the ratio can be as
skewed at 16:1--and worse. The idea is not to beat Omega 6 into
nothingness, but rather to keep it in its proper place.

If Palette's menu is primarily grassfed livestock and poultry and
nice oily marine fish you probably don't have to feed fish oil at
all. The extent to which her menu is not based on critters fed their
own species appropriate diets determines how much fish oil you may
want to supplement with.

Four-legged liver is not necessarily a source of Omega 3 unless the
liver comes from a four-legged animal that was pastured and grassfed
with little or no grain-finishing. And two-legged liver that comes
from free-ranging birds will deliver Omega 3 as well. In other
words, the liver will reflect the critter's diet just as any other
body part will.

How do you know your current diet is higher in Omega 3 than Omega 6?
What means of measuring did you use?
Chris O


Messages in this topic (82)
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7.3. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:07 am ((PST))

I have not had a chance yet to check out your article but I feed a minimal amount of fish oil if all.

At one point I used it alot but not wothin the last 8 months or so. Since switching over to raw no salmon oil for the first month and recently only one squirt a week and usually give them a salmon tail or fillet with there meal about once every week and a half. I feed lots of beef heart and lamb breast then pork of various cuts then chicken making up the least of there diet. I'll also throw in turkey necks for bone when I need to.

There coats are now the best they have ever been! No dry winter dandruff shedding etc. The coats are even comming in darker which is great. A few of them were having some coat issues in the few months before making the switch so I know that there is an improvement and that it is not because of salmon oils :) I only give it on occasion now along with some Apple Cider Vinigar when I feed Eggs. They love that combination it's the only time they actually eat the eggshells, but I don't like the vinigar smell, it just turnes my stomach, lol.

Erika

Anybody NOT feeding fish oil? How are the dogs? Without fish oil,still coat is as shiny and,looks healthy overall?



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7.4. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:07 am ((PST))

>However, the ratio should be 4:1 (Omega 6 to Omega 3).

Hi,Chris. I tweaked diet and most i can do was 2.75:1 (omega6:omega3)

With that number, only one day,I feed Beef liver kidney(4legged animal) and rest is poultry organs,heart,liver,and then,I switched Mackerral to pork,andI made salmon amount to half of she normally gets.Then,4 meals out of 14 was switched to poultry meal. then, came close to 3:1... I do not know why I have so many omega3 in diet.

So afterall, 7 meal are red meat,3 fish meal,4 poultry meal and6 poultry organ and gizzard,heart side with only 1 beef liver kidney side,and 3 tripe sidedish, and 1 Egg....

I am not trying to be an exact at all,though.

>How do you know your current diet is higher in Omega 3 than Omega 6?
What means of measuring did you use?

I use nutritiondata.com by making pantry where you can put item in and make analyze.
I was mainly using that to see kcal for palette's loosing weight thing but,I can look omega amount in there too.

The each item's nutrition comes from USDA numbers so, I think that isbased on grain-fed animal number..

yassy


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8a. what did I do wrong?
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:26 pm ((PST))

My dogs are ALL turning up their noses at the fresh goat that I and
neighbor butchered this weekend. They've eaten goat that the pro
butcher did up for us...

We didn't "bleed" the goat. Could that be it?

I'm bummed!

Mary T

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8b. Re: what did I do wrong?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:33 pm ((PST))


> We didn't "bleed" the goat. Could that be it?
*****
That's never bothered my dogs, but sure, why not? I mean, you're
grasping at straws right now.

Could be the goat was old and stinky. Could be it was cold. Or warmer
than your dogs are accustomed to. Could be what the goat was fed. Or
what the goat died of. Or the size of pieces you offered. Or maybe
you were hovering and exuding anxiety.

There are a bunch of maybes. You might have to start eliminating
them. Or quit fretting and just try again.

I'm sorry the event was such a let down. Bummer indeed.
Chris O

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8c. Re: what did I do wrong?
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:49 pm ((PST))

My dogs don't like anything that is fresh, it smells different. They turn thier noses up at it. But put it in the freezer for a while, let a rescue come into the house and eat some, and they are all over it:) Try freezing it some, and see if it smells different later. Or rub some other stuff on top of it, like molassis, I've even done garlic too:)
Jeni

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8d. Re: what did I do wrong?
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:07 am ((PST))

>different later. Or rub some other stuff on top of it, like molassis,
I've even done >garlic too:)

Molasses, Yuk, not for dogs. (not good for us either). But I would
never feed it to dogs. No where close to something they would find in
the wild.

I would try salmon oil poured over the meat. Salmon oil is a natural
product that is approiate for dogs. Yes it is processed to be oil in
a bottle vs a fish, but the product is still natural and approiate.

My dogs will generally eat anything with salmon oil on it, gladly.

Many will think Im a little nuts, but I am really really lax with
leaving meat out. I'd just go ahead and leave some of it out at room
tempature for a day or more and see if they like it better then.
Normally the longer meat sits on the counter, the more excited they
get about it. It never makes them sick (or us, we eat it too).

Good Luck.

Jamie


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9. Nanaimo meat suppliers
Posted by: "sarahliepins" sarahliepins@yahoo.com sarahliepins
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:07 am ((PST))


Hi there i live in Nanaimo British Columbia and i was just

wondering if there are any meat suppliers that i could contact about

dog food from (raw that is) and like with the prey model diet im not
really rich so can i still feed this it seems to me that buying whole
animals would be very costly and since you need to feed a variety of
different meats too so like i dont know if i could afford a whole cow
whole deer or whole goat to buy all at once.

oh and i also wanted to ask about this website this lady really trashes
this diet who to say whats right and whats wrong exactly?

http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html
<http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html>

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10a. Studies
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:07 am ((PST))

I am looking for info for a friend on a different group. Are there any studies that show how raw food improves the life span of the dogs lives? How it makes them live longer and healthier lives?
Jeni

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11. brown teeth
Posted by: "Kelly P" picklesrfree@yahoo.com picklesrfree
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:07 am ((PST))

I noticed today that my year old dog has brown spots on two of her
teeth on opposite sides of her mouth towards the back. Shes been raw
fed since we got her at 12 mos so I'm confused as to why she has these
brown spots. Any ideas? I looked in archives and did not find
anything helpful

Kelly

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12a. Re: I have Cresteds too!
Posted by: "Justin Cole" watertestersocal@yahoo.com watertestersocal
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:07 am ((PST))

This is perfect! I have so many questions I dint know where to begin. Well first of all I'm in southern California Ive had my Cresteds for almost a year shimoti (my male) and Katrina (my female) oh ya and then there is our little rescue Eugene were trying to find him a good home rite now. I am anxious to get on this raw diet Ive been wanting to show but I have a few problems we need to get over. First is socialization, the breeder I got them froom is getting old he has very good bloodlines but he dosent show much anymore and his dogs are lacking in social skills but they have come a long way. Shimoti is starting to clear up from his acne , I thought I had them on a good diet little did I know. Since taking him off kibble that had soy it has helped but now I want to take it a step further. Katrina has what looks like a rash on the inner part of her hein quarters, Im hoping the raw feeding will help all of this. Also my wife needs some convincing still of courser its hard
to get over all the myths of raw meat and bone. We know few people with crest eds in our neck of the woods however no one itno raw, so I would love to soak up as much info as possible I want to know everything there is to know about showing and feeding raw so lets start with your suggestion on a first meal? also whats your take on fruits and veggies? My dogs love them. Also I want to show my dogs I think they are the greatest however others are quick to point out faults, I know there is know perfect dog but how do I know that Im not going to be showing my dogs in vein? I better stop here I might go on forever! Im so glad I met another crested owner who feeds raw. Thanks for the reply and all the info



Justin


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13. first time raw - bottom wiggling fun
Posted by: "Jessica Bryan" rustx84@yahoo.com rustx84
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:30 am ((PST))

hi all, my name is jess, im from australia and i own 2 beautiful labs
(one is 20 mnths, the other a 15 week old pup) and a 9 yr old cocker
spaniel along with 3 kitties.

i came across raw awhile ago but that was the info that seemed like
prep time was a full time job and it was just all overly complex.
lucky i have found my way back and for the past week have been a bit
obsessed about finding out everything i can - and the prey-model diet
seems so simple and common sense!

today was the first day for my lab pup (ive already started all the
cats and im startin my other two tomorrow) i must say i was still a
bit worried about the gulping/choking issue but after reading
numerous posts on here... and armed with a juicy chicken quarter i
took the plunge! i was so happy to see that river was chewing the
quarter, the last piece he swallowed was a little big for my liking
but he didnt choke or anythin so all good. afterwards he looked at me
then scrambled around licking up any left over bits, with his lil bum
wiggling from excitement :)

i am planning on feeding him a chicken frame and leg in the morning
then another quarter in the night.

also planning on feeding my full grown lab two chicken frames morn
and a quarter at night...

and lastly my cocker spaniel a frame and leg for brekky and prob
another couple of legs for dinner...

Does all this sound ok??????????????

for my cocker spaniel he has anal duct probs in that they have been
manually emptied for awhile... and sometimes i see him having trouble
with tryin to push one out (poo that is :) should i try and
incorporate less bone for him??

Thanks so much to everyone already as i have gained so much
information just through reading past posts... everyone is so helpful
and it definately helped me to make the switch asap.


Jess - owned by - Brode, Gemma, River, Pimpa, Jasper & Obie

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14. (no subject)
Posted by: "sheila" schatzee@comporium.net osborne_sheila
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:30 am ((PST))

How often do you have to have bone in there meals? we were doing chicken for about 8 days and started on pork today/ the pork i got was boneless -we're trying the pork on just the saint since her allergies are flaring and of course she could be allergic to chicken also. sheila

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