Feed Pets Raw Food

Wednesday, October 31, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12226

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Theories - Why some will eat Whole Foods & Others Refuse
From: mgitaville
1b. Re: Theories - Why some will eat Whole Foods & Others Refuse
From: carnesbill
1c. Re: Theories - Why some will eat Whole Foods & Others Refuse
From: Yasuko herron
1d. Re: Theories - Why some will eat Whole Foods & Others Refuse
From: Denise and David Spotila

2. {Raw Feeding} Lab Work II
From: Brandi Bryant

3a. Re: still swallowing whole
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3b. Re: still swallowing whole
From: delcaste
3c. Re: still swallowing whole
From: delcaste

4a. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
From: Brandi Bryant
4b. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
From: Deb
4c. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
From: chandler_baby
4d. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
From: Lisa S.
4e. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
From: Donald J. O'Neill

5a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
From: Sandee Lee
5b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
From: Brandi Bryant
5c. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
From: carnesbill
5d. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
From: costrowski75
5e. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
From: Sandee Lee
5f. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
From: costrowski75
5g. ADMIN/Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Ready for Next Step/Question about lamb shanks
From: blue eyed

7a. rabbit
From: Cindy Morettin

8a. Re: Salmonella question
From: alexanderdewey

9a. Ground Food
From: mrsmenk
9b. Re: Ground Food
From: Sandee Lee


Messages
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1a. Theories - Why some will eat Whole Foods & Others Refuse
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:48 pm ((PDT))

So, the video with the dog eating the whole rabbitt got me
wondering.... for those dogs that did not start out as pups on raw or
at least whole food why is it some will take the whole prey while
others refuse? (by whole food I am referring to the whole bunny,
goat, deer, etc. with fur and all intact vs. the gutted, skinned,
animals many of us have access to).

I tried many months ago whole piglets killed prior to even being able
to nurse with my bullmastiff boys. Though the one I have had since a
pup has been known to be picky at times (his dislike for turkey is
well known and he won't eat fish if skin is still on), I had never
seen my rescue refuse something prior to the piglet. They both
looked at me nd each other like I was trying to poison them. After 4
full days of fasting (after putting it in front of them on the 5th
and still being refused I gave in) and quite the smell the poor
piglets were sent to the trash uneaten. The most I could get was a
lick or two where I gutted it for them.

So obviously dogs that are used to eating whole prey will eat it, but
does anyone else have dogs that refuse simply b/c fed easier cuts
without fur usually?

I don't get access to whole prey much so this is more a curiosity
question but please indulge me. What got others started? Do others
have dogs that after repeated attempts still would rather fast than
eat something with fur?

Any insight to this is appreciated.
Thanks
Marguerita

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Theories - Why some will eat Whole Foods & Others Refuse
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mgitaville" <mgitaville@...> wrote:
>
> So, the video with the dog eating the whole rabbitt got me
> wondering.... for those dogs that did not start out as pups on raw
or
> at least whole food why is it some will take the whole prey while
> others refuse?

My theory is that if you give them a whole rabbit for example with fur
on they don't know what it is. It kinda answers the question "will my
dog kill other animals if they eat raw?". It's prey drive in
reverse. They don't realize this is actually prey.

My dogs had a hard time with whole skinned rabbits in the beginning.
they would carry it around, lick it, play with it, toss it in the air
and any kind of play they could come up with. Finally they figured it
all out and decided it was real food.

I suggest you try skinned animals before feeding with fur on. Cut
open the belly so you expose the organs. This will usually get them
started after a few minutes of play with it. Don't introduce skin on
until they are very used to skinned.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: Theories - Why some will eat Whole Foods & Others Refuse
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))

>So obviously dogs that are used to eating whole prey will eat it, but
does anyone else have dogs that refuse simply b/c fed easier cuts
without fur usually?

Hi,Marguerita. I think that it is because dog daoes not know waht to do with it if you fed fur-less items all the time.

My dog started rawfeeding in May this year so,well,it been on it about 5 months.

First 2-3 months,I did not feed anything with fur but I concentrated on feeding variety of meat,bone,organ without any digestive upset if needed,I tried learning how to tweak the diet detail.

My dog still cannot take normal amount of Duck-only andLamb Tongue only andstill need to be combo meal on those 2 protins but shedoes pretty good on other things.

So,second round, I am trying to give bigger amount on one meal and smaller meal on the other and decided to give big big meal on once a month just for her to have more fun and getting used to bigger amount.

One of the time, I fed cow hooves,it is about 3lbs and size of hovves are about your palm and quite heavy and big.

It had I think cow ankle area?? and still fur around.

That was probably for her most wierdest thing she ever saw and,she was not sure how to tackle it. Of course this was not main meal but I fed normal meal and gave this for recreational purpose.

What do you think she did when she first saw it? She stalked around it andtried to nip it and herd it. Since it does not move (Of course),she was not sure and kept staring at me.

Time passes by about 15 min or so and,my husband told me "She would not like it,toss the stinky"

I said "Give her thetime and she will get it,I think she does not know waht to do with it"

And after some more minutes after she comes close andlick a bit and stare,I cut out the fur about 1 inch square andlet her eat it,and she did eat it and from that point on,she kept putting her nose on the patch that I cut out and tried to tackle it but still hard.So,I did little bit ribborning;I did not cut sking off but cut some so that she can get good grab of skin and fur and rip.

It went good.After that shespent 2 hours on it and enjoyed it.She did not finish it off everything so,I still have the leftover in freezer but, if you try ribborn theskin if dog had bit difficulty understanding,probably the dog gets it.

Funny thing is that,next day,she had this wierdest poo I have seen. Kind of like all fur plicked from the cow skin and only fur got round up and came out as poo.

Talking of big meal, her big meal is last day of each month I decided so, today will be big meal day.

I can tell sheis hungry because I hear her tummy gargling loud:-P

I will give her 5lb of goat leg(I will take it out when I think she ate enough meat to avoid mid night call for poo),and I give her bone from beef short rib that I used for today's meal for human (Ireland's style sheppherd pie).I took meat for human and left bone for her so that she can eat and I use it to trade leg with me.I know she can eat all rib bone of beef so,I giveitto her.I will still get leftover goat leg so,she get it again sometime later.

Goat meat meal make her nose so wet even before I put on mat and,I can imagine she will be so excited.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: Theories - Why some will eat Whole Foods & Others Refuse
Posted by: "Denise and David Spotila" brookside_casa@yahoo.com brookside_casa
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:18 pm ((PDT))

I do not have an answer but my poodles will not eat a bunny with fur or a bird with feathers or any hide covered meat. I have tried several times.......They will kill a chicken who happens to get into the dog yard, but never have they tried to eat it.

David and Denise Spotila


Brookside Casa
Standard Poodles
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
E Roosevelt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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2. {Raw Feeding} Lab Work II
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:24 pm ((PDT))

I know you guys worship Dr. Dodd but I'm telling you and I trust my vet 100%
and my gut tells me that Max is not hypothyroid - he's not fat. The
symptoms that goes along with Cushings disease fits him more. I didn't
think anything of it at the time but I'd come home from work and the trash
would be dumped over. That wasn't like him, and he started begging for
food, and drinking more, he has the pot belly look to him etc...also I was
doing some research on skin conditions on GS and I found an article with
pictures with a dog that had a yeast infection...Max looks like the dog from
that article. If I've run my course I will do a full blood work up for
hypothyroid and send it to CA to Dr. Dodd. I just want Max to get
better....

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))


In a message dated 10/31/2007 3:04:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
delcaste@yahoo.com writes:

Maybe large chunk of beef/pork ribs? Goat leg? She
will tackle these with gusto. Big pieces one day then on the next day
a piece of kidney with gizzard? I'm lost.



Silvina,

from what i've gathered on this list, cause i've never lived with a pug, they
are gulpers extraordinaire. They need BIG food, even though they aren't big
dogs.

And the best way to feed a gulper is to force them not to gulp. Feed things
that are FAR bigger than their heads. And when you think they've had enough,
remove what is left, or when they are full and leave it alone. But at that
point it would probably be best to not feed them the next day.. or just to give
them a snack the next day. Depending of course on how much they eat.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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3b. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:37 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:

> I suspect the six ounces of ribboned meat was too small a meal for
> her ambitions. And of course a ribbon of meat is precisely the
> right shape for mindless grabbing and gobbling. Since she's a
> competent eater, I recommend you do nothing to make meals easier
for
> her. Only the timid or unadventurous feeders need their meats
> ribboned.

Yup, she's a mindless, grabbing pig (sorry, still feeling the effects
of her "eating"). I thought she was doing so much better til the
choking episodeS...She is a competent eater I guess the lamb was so
soft and already coming apart that she aspirated the chunk. That's
how she eats, she aspirates.
>
> I > thougtht I had lost her. I kept doing the Heimlich and was able
> to get
> > the offending piece out.
> *****
> Scary. Good you kept at it! Did you try going into her mouth to
> pull or/push down the piece of food? Sometimes that is more
quickly
> effective than the Heimlich. I have a pair of those surgical tongy
> things for reaching down deep if needs be.

She was clenching her teeth so tightly that I couldn't go into her
mouth. I think it was when it came up into her throat that I was able
to get in and grab the chunk of food.
>
> She did the same thing the following day (it
> > was goat meat that I had left, not frozen, but "hard." I truly
> > believe that if I hadn't intervened, she would have choked to
> death.
> *****
> Hard to know, good you didn't have to find out. Again, perhaps you
> are feeding something just a hair larger than she can easily
swallow
> (again, overstated ambitions on her part), or, on the other hand,
> food that's not quite large enough to stifle the challenge.
>
> I have found through similar experiences that it's the "middle
> sized" food that causes the most anxiety. So I don't feed middle
> sized food. If it's not significantly BIG, I cut it smaller. If I
> have any doubt about the hunk being big enough, it gets made
> smaller. But this comes from time on the job and knowing how
greedy
> my dogs are.
>
> What is "middle sized" to you, specifically? I have no idea. But
> conceptually it's food that may be viewed by the dog as swallowable
> without further processing, even if it isn't. Like, perhaps, the
> six ounces of lamb you fed or the somewhat frozen hunk of goat. My
> guess is the Big Food you are feeding is not Big enough.

You're right it's not Big Food. I have given her a goat leg that was
probably over 14 inches long with enough meat on it for her. She did
very well. Goats are built weird to me so I can't tell what other
parts I've given her but they have been complicated. I try to feed
bigger than her muzzle and I was doing fine til the other day. Now
it's just plain scary.
>
>
> > Please tell me what exactly should I give her for dinner?
> *****
> I can't tell you exactly. To what extent have you tested her self-
> regulatory ability? Have you? Or do you call it quits when YOU
> think it's quitting time? Perhaps there's a gap between her quits
> and your quits that you should re-evaluate.

I have let her go until she herself has stopped out of tiredness or
fullness. I don't feel too sorry for this piglet, trust me. I will be
giving her much bigger food and see when she stops.
>
> Maybe large chunk of beef/pork ribs? Goat leg?
> *****
> These sound fine, but I recommend though that you are sure the both
> of you agree on what constitutes a "large chunk." I'm guessing you
> need to make the chunk larger yet.
>
> Beef ribs are not generally fed for edible, and the meat on beef
> ribs is not abundant. If you want to feed a slab of beef ribs for
> the effort, good; to make the event a full meal consider adding
some
> meat (either a big enough hunk or meat that's cut small enough to
> gulp foolishly). I'd think a goat leg would be dandy.

I guess I'll just be watching her ribcage to make sure she doesn't
get porky on me. SHE is getting BIG pieces from now on, in fact,
today she got a goat leg destined for pittie-boy
>
>
> She
> > will tackle these with gusto. Big pieces one day then on the next
> day
> > a piece of kidney with gizzard? I'm lost.
> *****
> I don't think you're lost. I think you are there but don't
> recognize it.
>
> If a goat leg is a Big Meal for your pug, then yes, some kidney or
a
> rew gizzards would fine small meals the next day. However--based
on
> what she did with her hunk o' lamb--perhaps the piece of kidney
> should be fed in either notably small pieces or a notably larger
wad.
>
> If finding the right hunk of meat is difficult, you can always feed
> a lovely meaty body part (goat leg is excellent; lamb shank might
be
> another option, as are tom turkey necks or drums, or trimmed out
> pork shoulder half-roasts) one day and an appropriate amount of cut
> up meat the next. Or--even--offer a really big hunk o' meat that
> she simply cannot jam into her greedy maw but take it away when
> she's eaten her share.

Piglet has eaten goat legs, goat thighs?, turkey drums and she is
such a darling compact little pug. Pig is what she is. And yes,
that's what she does, aspirates and jams, lol. Sorry I sound giddy
but her choking really, really scared me. Thanks for your help, Chris.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (13)
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3c. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:38 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> If she refuses to eat politely you'll have to make an artificial
small
> meal for her. Give her a big chunk of stuff and just take it away
> after she's had a little bit. I'm sorry you had such a scary
moment
> with her. Just keep things big and she might learn to eat politely
> down the road.
Yes, I'm going to be trying that. She is getting BIG food from now on
that I will relish taking away from her ;0) It really was horrible
and the fact that it happened twice didn't make matters any better.

>
> BTW, you mention that you've given up on the other one, what does
that
> mean?

Poor Chunkie, I haven't given him away or locked him in a dark room.
Chunkie is my timid, "tender" pug ;0). He will not touch his food, he
raises his head way up and dangles it, if I give him an RMB he will
chew it until it's turned white and very mushy and he still hasn't
taken any meat off of it. Mind you, I've left him outside with his
RMB until he wants to come in (that's been over an hour) and I've
given the RMN to the other dog. I really am envious of everyone with
a ripping and tearing dog and my other ones are like that but the
pugs.....I'm going to have to keep feeding him his rabbit, turkey
drums, etc, and give him the extra meat in small chunks. Thanks for
your concern, Andrea.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (13)
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4a. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:36 pm ((PDT))

Where's the video, do we have to go the website to view it?

Brandi


On 10/31/07, Patty Linden <pattykat3@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Lisa--Just wanted to tell you your video was great--a little choppy,
> like you said. It's so interesting for me to hear that some other's dogs
> don't like to use their paws to eat--I was beginning to think there was
> something wrong with my little fellow.
> :-) Patty
>
> Hi,
>
> I posted a couple videos I took of my dog eating two types of raw
> food - a whole, furry rabbit ... and a chicken back (when he was a
> pup).
>
>
> .
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
Posted by: "Deb" thegrittons@yahoo.com thegrittons
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:18 pm ((PDT))

Hi Lisa! Loved the clips. Was interesting to watch! Was a little
blurry, but was fun to see. And, what a good looking dog!
~Deb~

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa S." <acbrio@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I posted a couple videos I took of my dog eating two types of raw
> food - a whole, furry rabbit ... and a chicken back (when he was a
> pup).


Messages in this topic (8)
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4c. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
Posted by: "chandler_baby" chandler_baby@yahoo.com chandler_baby
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:52 pm ((PDT))

Lisa,

What a nice video and Brio is a beautiful Toller!

Thanks for sharing.

Roxane

Messages in this topic (8)
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4d. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
Posted by: "Lisa S." acbrio@shaw.ca trzazz
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:32 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the nice comments, everyone ! :) Glad you like them.
Brio is blushing from the compliments. Yep, he has been called a handsome dude
before :).
I have now posted the rabbit and chicken back videos on YouTube as well.

Brio (a 40 pound, 2.5 yr old duck Toller) eating his first whole, furry rabbit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzCldGfvS40

Brio as a puppy (about 12 weeks old) eating half a chicken back:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X91j4dByAZM

Hopefully that is a little better quality picture and sound. They display better for me. I
loaded the best quality YouTube would allow me to upload.

I have described my dog eating a rabbit to several people, including vegetarian friends....
heh heh. Good "gross out" or fascination factor. One of the vegetarians asked (with a look
of total concern on her face) if the rabbit was live when I gave it to him. Oh brother !! I
assured her that it was quite dead... and frozen.. then I thawed it out and gave it to him.

On the "I don't want to touch ANY icky thing with my paws unless I absolutely have to !
Ewww gross !!" issue, I have heard of others on these lists with dogs like that :).

- Lisa S.
and Brio

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "chandler_baby" <chandler_baby@...> wrote:
>
> Lisa,
>
> What a nice video and Brio is a beautiful Toller!
>
> Thanks for sharing.
>
> Roxane
>


Messages in this topic (8)
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4e. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
Posted by: "Donald J. O'Neill" DonaldJONeill@gmail.com donaldjoneill
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:49 pm ((PDT))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES PLEASE.

Hi Lisa,

It was quite interesting to see the technique Brio used. It's a bit different
from what my Airedale, Duncan, uses. But then, Duncan usually catches wild
rabbits, so maybe, that's the reason for the different technique, or maybe
not. Duncan will skin the rabbits first. then start working on eating them,
beginning with the stomach area first. Usually what's left is, maybe, one
foot and a whole lot of fur. One year, he caught 7 rabbits and 6 woodchucks.
Woodchucks are easier, they can't move as fast as rabbits.

Don


On Wednesday 31 October 2007 05:50:13 pm Lisa S. wrote:
> Thanks for the nice comments, everyone ! :) Glad you like them.
> Brio is blushing from the compliments. Yep, he has been called a handsome
> dude before :).
> I have now posted the rabbit and chicken back videos on YouTube as well.
>
> Brio (a 40 pound, 2.5 yr old duck Toller) eating his first whole, furry
> rabbit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzCldGfvS40
>
> Brio as a puppy (about 12 weeks old) eating half a chicken back:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X91j4dByAZM
>
> Hopefully that is a little better quality picture and sound. They display
> better for me. I loaded the best quality YouTube would allow me to upload.
>
> I have described my dog eating a rabbit to several people, including
> vegetarian friends.... heh heh. Good "gross out" or fascination factor. One
> of the vegetarians asked (with a look of total concern on her face) if the
> rabbit was live when I gave it to him. Oh brother !! I assured her that it
> was quite dead... and frozen.. then I thawed it out and gave it to him.
>
> On the "I don't want to touch ANY icky thing with my paws unless I
> absolutely have to ! Ewww gross !!" issue, I have heard of others on these
> lists with dogs like that :).
>
> - Lisa S.
> and Brio


Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:18 pm ((PDT))

Brandi,

This is getting far off topic for this list, but I think you are confused
about this.
If the blood had been sent to Dr. Dodds to begin with, she would have run
the tests and you'd have the results already! The lab is right there...she
doesn't ship to Tennessee. I don't know where you got that idea?

We don't worship Dr. Dodds, but she is *the* expert in thyroid disease so if
there is any chance of hypothyroidism, she's the one you want evaluating the
blood. There is absolutely nothing that says a hypothyroid dog has to be
fat! Here is a list of the many possible symptoms, and only one need be
present to indicate disease....
http://siriusdog.com/articles/hypothyroid-dog-signs.htm

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@gmail.com>

> Are you in California though where she is? I'm in Oklahoma where the vet
> would ship it to her in California then they would ship to
> Tennessee...what's the point?
>
> Brandi

Messages in this topic (10)
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5b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:52 pm ((PDT))

This is getting far off topic for this list, but I think you are confused
about this.

Then I will let the subject drop - I'm beginning to get the impression
nobody really cares what going on with my boy anyway! And I'm not confused
- I trust my vet COMPLETELY and he also thinks that Max isn't
hypothyroid!!! Subject DROPPED!!! Sorry to bother everyone about this, I
thought this group cared!!!

Brandi
Bartlesville, OK

On 10/31/07, Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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5c. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:33 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...>
wrote:
>
> - I trust my vet COMPLETELY and he also thinks that Max isn't
> hypothyroid!!!

Brandi,
I think you are going to find that there are people on this and a few
other lists that mistakenly think Dr Dodds is the only vet in the
world capable of doing a thyroid test or diagnosing most anything.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale


Messages in this topic (10)
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5d. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:46 pm ((PDT))

"Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...> wrote:
>And the lab that Dr. Dodd uses is
> the same lab that my vet uses. Why spend the extra money, if Dr.
Dodd took
> the blood sample and did the tests in her own lab I could see doing
it but
> that's just an extra step that I can avoid if my vet uses the same
lab.
*****
It's not the lab, it's the interpretation.
Chris o

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

5e. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:50 pm ((PDT))

There are only two labs that run the complete panel....MSU and Antech.
Using Antech you get the benefit of Dr. Dodds' experience and research to
not only diagnose but communicate with the pet owner and their vet to
recommend a treatment program.
It's a win/win situation!

And no, it is not possible to properly diagnose or treat hypothyroidism by
merely running the T3, T4, whatever is included in normal bloodwork
routinely run by local vets.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "carnesbill" <carnesw@bellsouth.net>

I think you are going to find that there are people on this and a few
other lists that mistakenly think Dr Dodds is the only vet in the
world capable of doing a thyroid test or diagnosing most anything.


Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

5f. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:56 pm ((PDT))

"Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@...> wrote:
I'm beginning to get the impression
> nobody really cares what going on with my boy anyway!
*****
Brandi, if you would be so kind as to offer some evidence that your
respondents don't care, I'd appreciate it. The replies I've read
appear to be concerned that his blood work be read properly so that
proper diagnosis and treatment can be made. How is that not caring?

My guess is you are anoyed because people aren't buying into your
choice. That's life, it doesn't mean the people on this list don't
give a hoot about your dog. It means people disagree with your
choice. Heck, that happens. About blood work, about chicken necks,
about chicken backs, about green tripe, about veggies, about vaccines.

It's your money, he's your dog, the final answer is always yours. No
one is dismissing your dog. I think if anyone owes anyone an apology,
it would be coming from you and offered to the people on this list who
responded and are indeed concerned about his recovery.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

5g. ADMIN/Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:58 pm ((PDT))

This subject is closed. Further discussion should be taken to RawChat.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Ready for Next Step/Question about lamb shanks
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:18 pm ((PDT))

I would feed a new food in with the already tolerated food for a day, maybe two, then on its own for maybe three days, but you will know by your dog after a day or two of feeding it, I'm sure.

I dont feed lamb leg bones as often now as my pup is a larger breed with a very strong bite so I feel its a bit brittle for him, since he can consume the whole bone and its the middle part that seems to cause a bit of the 'runs' with bone in it, just the body's way of getting rid. However, I will let him eat the softer joint end, which he seems to mush up more and this causes no problem what so ever.I would be tempted to feed them, sometimes get them free at the end of the night in the butchers too! Flank is usually cheap enough and softer bones with plenty meat between and fat to go with it.


Natalie



---------------------------------
For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. rabbit
Posted by: "Cindy Morettin" superdogz@sbcglobal.net cindymorettin
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi Guys,

I am wondering if it'll okay to feed my dogs rabbits that may have had rabbitt fever? Is this something to be concerned about? A friend of mine is offering to bring me whole raw rabbit but warned me of the rabbit fever thing.

Thanks!
Cindy

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Messages in this topic (12)
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8a. Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:37 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for all the replys and info. I see the general consensus here
is - Don't worry about salmonella. So I won't.

On the issue of feeding Gigi k***ble for a few days next week while
I'm away - I'm not boarding her, she's staying with a friend of mine
and the idea is to make things "as easy as possible" for my friend.
So if it wont be to Gigi's detriment to feed her those 'doom nuggets'
for a few days (ie: cause bacterial problem), at least I know we have
that option.

THANKSAGAIN,

Alex

Messages in this topic (19)
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________________________________________________________________________

9a. Ground Food
Posted by: "mrsmenk" mrsmenk@starpower.net mrsmenk
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:39 pm ((PDT))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.


I am new to raw feeding - about a week into it now. I have been
hearing about ground food (bones, organs, etc.). I have two dogs over
100 lbs and a 10 lb cat. Is this type of ground useful at all in a raw
diet?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Ground Food
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:43 pm ((PDT))

No, there is really no benefit to ground foods. What exactly have you been
feeding?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mrsmenk" <mrsmenk@starpower.net>

I am new to raw feeding - about a week into it now. I have been
hearing about ground food (bones, organs, etc.). I have two dogs over
100 lbs and a 10 lb cat. Is this type of ground useful at all in a raw
diet?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12225

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Lamb spine
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Lamb spine
From: Laurie Swanson
1c. Re: Lamb spine
From: jennifer_hell

2a. Re: still swallowing whole
From: Andrea
2b. Re: still swallowing whole
From: Laurie Swanson
2c. Re: still swallowing whole
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
From: mgitaville

4.1. Re: Introduction
From: Laurie Swanson

5a. Ready for Next Step/Question about lamb shanks
From: miensasis
5b. Re: Ready for Next Step/Question about lamb shanks
From: Andrea

6a. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
From: autumnji@aol.com
6b. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
From: cynthiashankman

7a. Question about small dogs and beef bones
From: Patty Linden
7b. Re: Question about small dogs and beef bones
From: carnesbill
7c. Re: Question about small dogs and beef bones
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Kittens Getting Started - weeks 2 thru 14
From: marclre
8b. Re: Kittens Getting Started - weeks 2 thru 14
From: Patty Linden

9a. Re: Beef necks??
From: costrowski75

10a. {Raw Feeding} Lab work
From: Brandi Bryant
10b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
From: Sonja
10c. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
From: Brandi Bryant

11a. video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
From: Lisa S.
11b. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
From: Scott Baker
11c. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
From: Patty Linden

12a. Re: Newbi eIntro
From: jaygaughan


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Lamb spine
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

I don't remember how big your girl is, but my 60lb pups go right
through the spine area of lamb. I'd stand by with extra meat for her.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
>
> are these hard bones, or do your dogs eat it whole? I'd like to know
> whether to expect my girl to have a boney meal with that, or if she'll
> have to rip of the meat (like she does with venison).


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Lamb spine
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:59 am ((PDT))

Depends how big your dog is. I get lamb necks, cut into about 3" x 8"
pieces. My 23# Boston eats the whole thing. I usually let him eat
part of a hunk with some added meat and feed the remainder later. It
depends how meaty they are as to how they'll be eaten, I think. Mine
will rip some of the meat off and then crunch the bones.

Oh, I just remembered, I have gotten some lamb bones that were denser
than others, from older sheep. I believe there were some neck bones he
hasn't eaten. So that will also be a factor. Most of them, he has
eaten, though.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
>
> are these hard bones, or do your dogs eat it whole?

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Lamb spine
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:59 am ((PDT))

Great! Thank you. She's a 55lb pitbull.

Jennifer with Mandy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> I don't remember how big your girl is, but my 60lb pups go right
> through the spine area of lamb. I'd stand by with extra meat for her.
>


Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:43 am ((PDT))

If she refuses to eat politely you'll have to make an artificial small
meal for her. Give her a big chunk of stuff and just take it away
after she's had a little bit. I'm sorry you had such a scary moment
with her. Just keep things big and she might learn to eat politely
down the road.

BTW, you mention that you've given up on the other one, what does that
mean?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:

> But the other day I gave her some lamb @ 6 oz, sort or "ribboned"
> and she choked! I thougth I had lost her. I kept doing the Heimlich
> and was able to get the offending piece out. She did the same thing
> the following day (it was goat meat that I had left, not frozen,
> but "hard." I truly believe that if I hadn't intervened, she would
> have choked to death. Please tell me what exactly should I give
> her for dinner?

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:59 am ((PDT))

Hi Silvina,

I've had some of these issues with my Boston. For us, it's been a
matter of figuring out the right items/sizes to feed. And I've also
found that he's slowed down and gotten smarter over the past year of
prey model.

I'm not sure exactly what you've tried, and this might seem a little
confusing, but it sounds like you might be feeding things this
particular dog is more likely to choke on. If the lamb piece had
either been bigger, or chopped up smaller, that might have been
safer. But if she's prone to gulping, ribboning a fairly small hunk
of boneless meat (but not quite small enough to swallow easily) might
make her think, "Oh, this will go down..." Or not even really
think...You basically did half of her work for her, but she thought
it was ready to swallow. But since she didn't do the work herself,
she didn't really break it down into what she needed, nor did she
have a good sense of what she was about to swallow. Make some
sense? I think you're going to need to try bigger and/or more
complicated, in order to make your girl stop for half a second and
think about how she's going to tackle her meal, and to get a sense of
what she's eating. It really should work!

How often are you feeding? Can you feed bigger pieces less often?
Or try to work up to it? That would really help. And what else have
you tried feeding and how has that gone?

You may be able to get creative within the amount you want to feed
daily. What about feeding some meat attached to bones she can't eat
(and then removing the inedible bones once they're cleaned off)? Can
she eat goat leg bones? If those aren't easily edible, maybe you
could have a goat leg cut into, say, 1# pieces (1/2 lb. just seems
too small, and you don't want any choking-sized bones). Then, if you
want to feed about 1/2 lb. per day, you could feed one of those one
day and let her eat half. Feed the remaining half the next day, or
alternate with another food.

It's going to be hard to get bone in the diet feeding that small, to
a small dog, though. What about fish? Those are easy, edible
bones. If you can't or won't feed bigger, you might need to feed a
ground meat and bone mix and/or chop up her food into smaller pieces
she'll be less likely to choke on (bite-size).

But you might find that if you can feed bigger, more labor-intensive
food less often, she will finally get somewhat satisfied--by the
stimulation and exercise of ripping and tearing her food, as well as
the higher volume of food in her stomach. As I'm sure you know, dogs
are made for it--their stomachs are designed to stretch and shrink
with big meals and then no meals, or small meals. They don't need an
exact amount every day (barring other health issues).

Let us know what you think. We'll help you figure this out.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
I truly
> believe that if I hadn't intervened, she would have choked to
death.
> Please tell me what exactly should I give her for dinner? She won't
> self-regulate. Maybe large chunk of beef/pork ribs? Goat leg? She
> will tackle these with gusto. Big pieces one day then on the next
day
> a piece of kidney with gizzard? I'm lost.


Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:42 am ((PDT))

"delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
> I am having trouble with my pugs. I've given up on one but the
other
> one eats like you say she's supposed to: she rips and tears and
> swallows those pieces she's torn. So far so good, in fact, I loved
> watching her because she was doing so, so good. But the other day
I
> gave her some lamb @ 6 oz, sort or "ribboned" and she choked!
*****
I suspect the six ounces of ribboned meat was too small a meal for
her ambitions. And of course a ribbon of meat is precisely the
right shape for mindless grabbing and gobbling. Since she's a
competent eater, I recommend you do nothing to make meals easier for
her. Only the timid or unadventurous feeders need their meats
ribboned.


I > thougtht I had lost her. I kept doing the Heimlich and was able
to get
> the offending piece out.
*****
Scary. Good you kept at it! Did you try going into her mouth to
pull or/push down the piece of food? Sometimes that is more quickly
effective than the Heimlich. I have a pair of those surgical tongy
things for reaching down deep if needs be.


She did the same thing the following day (it
> was goat meat that I had left, not frozen, but "hard." I truly
> believe that if I hadn't intervened, she would have choked to
death.
*****
Hard to know, good you didn't have to find out. Again, perhaps you
are feeding something just a hair larger than she can easily swallow
(again, overstated ambitions on her part), or, on the other hand,
food that's not quite large enough to stifle the challenge.

I have found through similar experiences that it's the "middle
sized" food that causes the most anxiety. So I don't feed middle
sized food. If it's not significantly BIG, I cut it smaller. If I
have any doubt about the hunk being big enough, it gets made
smaller. But this comes from time on the job and knowing how greedy
my dogs are.

What is "middle sized" to you, specifically? I have no idea. But
conceptually it's food that may be viewed by the dog as swallowable
without further processing, even if it isn't. Like, perhaps, the
six ounces of lamb you fed or the somewhat frozen hunk of goat. My
guess is the Big Food you are feeding is not Big enough.


> Please tell me what exactly should I give her for dinner?
*****
I can't tell you exactly. To what extent have you tested her self-
regulatory ability? Have you? Or do you call it quits when YOU
think it's quitting time? Perhaps there's a gap between her quits
and your quits that you should re-evaluate.


Maybe large chunk of beef/pork ribs? Goat leg?
*****
These sound fine, but I recommend though that you are sure the both
of you agree on what constitutes a "large chunk." I'm guessing you
need to make the chunk larger yet.

Beef ribs are not generally fed for edible, and the meat on beef
ribs is not abundant. If you want to feed a slab of beef ribs for
the effort, good; to make the event a full meal consider adding some
meat (either a big enough hunk or meat that's cut small enough to
gulp foolishly). I'd think a goat leg would be dandy.


She
> will tackle these with gusto. Big pieces one day then on the next
day
> a piece of kidney with gizzard? I'm lost.
*****
I don't think you're lost. I think you are there but don't
recognize it.

If a goat leg is a Big Meal for your pug, then yes, some kidney or a
rew gizzards would fine small meals the next day. However--based on
what she did with her hunk o' lamb--perhaps the piece of kidney
should be fed in either notably small pieces or a notably larger wad.

If finding the right hunk of meat is difficult, you can always feed
a lovely meaty body part (goat leg is excellent; lamb shank might be
another option, as are tom turkey necks or drums, or trimmed out
pork shoulder half-roasts) one day and an appropriate amount of cut
up meat the next. Or--even--offer a really big hunk o' meat that
she simply cannot jam into her greedy maw but take it away when
she's eaten her share.

Chris O


Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:59 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
>
> "A true food allergen isn't going to go away due to raw... "
>
> Unless it's a grain allergy which is super common. Taking grains
out of a
> pets diet has eliminated many allergies - but as mentioned, it can
also be
> other type of allergies not food related.
> --
> Tina Berry - MT
> Kriegshund German Shepherds
> Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
> www.kriegshundgsds.com
>

******As I wrote this I was in the mindset of protein sources so your
clarification is correct. However, even with grains you are still
simply removing the allergen from the diet. The actual allergy
itself does not go away...meaning the animal will still always be
allergic to grain - you are simply choosing not to expose the animal
to it. Obviously with fewer allergens the animal is exposed to
though the better the animal can then handle those which you can not
remove from diet or enviorment.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4.1. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:00 am ((PDT))

Hi Kris,

Congrats on the switch. Your insatiable chewer should be more
satisfied now that he'll be working harder for his food and eating
such yummy stuff! He may have been a snacker because he didn't like
his previous food very well. If he still doesn't want to eat a lot
on raw, check to see if you're overfeeding--but I bet he'll be more
enthusiastic.

I just got a second dog and started him on raw and he did what you're
talking about with half his meal chewed up in his mouth, but still
attached to the rest of it that's outside his mouth. My other dog
doesn't do that. I'm not sure if it's because he's new or what. He
also doesn't use his paws as much as my other dog. It sounds like
yours is doing fine, though, since he's chomping it well.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "motyka_skathock"
<motyka_skathock@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, My name is Kris. I've just switched my dog, Mack, to raw foods.
> Mack is an 8 month old, Lab/pit/GSD/Rotti who is an insatiable
chewer.

Messages in this topic (356)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Ready for Next Step/Question about lamb shanks
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:20 am ((PDT))

Hello Everyone...

I've had my two wheatens on raw for about 6 weeks now. While they
have mostly subsisted on chicken (meat, meaty bones, and organs) I
have introduced a little variety in the last two weeks with some
turkey, beef, egg and a smidge of beef liver. I have introduced
these items WITH the chicken (like maybe half chicken/half new item)
and they have both tolerated everything extremely well....nice
firm/never runny poops (aside from Molly's initial episode of cannon
butt early on in week one). My question is....since they are
tolerating this bit of variety well...should I introduce other types
of variety in small bits each week...or would I do well sticking with
the two sources I added....turkey, beef/beef liver...but work to
whole meals of these items to ensure they can tolerate them? Any
advice would be appreciated.

Also...yesterday I found lamb shanks in my grocery store. they were
nice sized pieces--about the size of those monster turkey drumsticks
one finds in the meat case. Depending on feedback regarding my
initial question, I'll either feed them this week or freeze them for
future variety....but when I do feed them should I expect that the
bone is edible? I know that weight bearing bones of larger animals
like cows is hard on teeth, but what about weight bearing bones of
the smaller hooved animals?

Thanks,

Nancy

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Ready for Next Step/Question about lamb shanks
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:40 am ((PDT))

> My question is....since they are tolerating this bit of variety
> well...should I introduce other types of variety in small bits each
> week...or would I do well sticking with the two sources I
> added....turkey, beef/beef liver...but work to whole meals

Meh, you could go either way. Personally I work up to a whole meal of
new stuff before moving on, but that's because I would probably forget
to work up to whole meals in the end. Whatever works best for you guys
is more than ok.

> but when I do feed them should I expect that the bone is edible?

Sure, your pup may not have the jaw strength to break down the bone,
but the bone is still pretty soft compared to beef femurs. I feed legs
of goat, pig and lamb quite often.

Andrea


Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
Posted by: "autumnji@aol.com" autumnji@aol.com jayagurumayi
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:40 am ((PDT))

thanks to all who replied and esp giselle,

it is true that i did not do the homework and
got overwhelmed by all the files. im sorry.
by reading the posts i had realized i was way overfeeding
edible bones and couldn't figure out what exactly do feed next.
one of the files actually said their "little" got 3 chicken necks per
day. i know this is not optimal.

thank you all for your devoted energy helping us
confused newbies. starting today i am going for more
meatymeat and less edible bone.

autumn


**************************************
See what's new at

http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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6b. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:42 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, autumnji@... wrote:


> by reading the posts i had realized i was way overfeeding
> edible bones and couldn't figure out what exactly do feed next.
> one of the files actually said their "little" got 3 chicken necks per
> day. i know this is not optimal.

Autumn, Giselle, CatherineR, Andrea, et al,

OMGosh, That is so awesome!!!! Yay Autumn and her little Chi!!! More
meat for Chi!!!

Cynthia

Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________

7a. Question about small dogs and beef bones
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:30 am ((PDT))

Hi--I was wondering if anyone with small dogs (mine is a 13 lb. pomeranian) would have any suggestions for feeding beef bones. Would beef ribs be a safe bone to feed (as far as not harming his teeth, and would he be able to crush them?). I started my little guy out on chicken a month ago. Lately he is refusing the chicken each time I offer it, but absolutely loves to gnaw on a turkey neck. He is a very careful and methodical eater--but doesn't like to use his paws. When he occasionally uses them to hold the meat or bone, he has to stop and clean those paws before beginning again. Does anyone else have a dog like this? I know he needs to be given a variety of proteins--that is why I am asking about the beef.
Thanks for any suggestions you might have
:-) Patty

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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Question about small dogs and beef bones
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:23 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Patty Linden <pattykat3@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi--I was wondering if anyone with small dogs (mine is a
> 13 lb. pomeranian) would have any suggestions for feeding
> beef bones.

I have 2 Great Danes and I don't feed them beef bones of any kind.
All the beef they eat is boneless.

> Lately he is refusing the chicken each time I offer it, ...

You need to step up and take the responsibility of deciding the diet
your dog eats. Picky eaters are made not born and your dog is well
on the way to being a picky eater. When one of my dogs refuse
something I put down, I pick it up after 10 monutes of no interest
and put it back in the fridge. Sometimes I don't even wait 10
minutes. He gets nothing to eat until next meal time when I bring
out the same thing again. He continues to get that particular piece
of whatever until he eats it.

> He is a very careful and methodical eater--but doesn't like to
> use his paws.

Neither of my dogs use their paws. I don't worry about it.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: Question about small dogs and beef bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:46 am ((PDT))

Patty,

Most dogs are not able to consume beef bones...but that's OK...just use beef
for a meaty meal. If he's been eating chicken and turkey necks, he's
getting plenty of bone...add some nice red meat....beef, pork, lamb, goat,
etc.

Many dogs don't use paws for their meals....certainly isn't necessary.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Patty Linden" <pattykat3@yahoo.com>


> Hi--I was wondering if anyone with small dogs (mine is a 13 lb.
pomeranian) would have any suggestions for feeding beef bones. Would beef
ribs be a safe bone to feed (as far as not harming his teeth, and would he
be able to crush them?). I started my little guy out on chicken a month
ago. Lately he is refusing the chicken each time I offer it, but absolutely
loves to gnaw on a turkey neck. He is a very careful and methodical
eater--but doesn't like to use his paws. When he occasionally uses them to
hold the meat or bone, he has to stop and clean those paws before beginning
again. Does anyone else have a dog like this? I know he needs to be given
a variety of proteins--that is why I am asking about the beef.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Kittens Getting Started - weeks 2 thru 14
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:41 am ((PDT))

Hi All

A few weeks ago I paid a visit to our local Home Depot to pick up some earth and a
shovel. Somehow, instead of the potting soil, about 20 minutes later I found myself
outside their garden dept clutching a box of 4 very tiny kittens. We guessed they were
around 2 weeks old and when the cashier told me they were to be dumped outside the
doors at close of business I was sunk :-0

As luck would have it, Mama was the first cat trapped that night in a long overdue spay/
neuter program and so the kits were spared bottle feeding.

Since then we've watched, gobsmacked, as something that just had to be 'got through'
rapidly turned into a not-to-be-missed saga. Every week there's something new. Not least
an ongoing and for us eye-opening look at the mechanics of raw feeding...at least
somewhat as it might naturally happen.

For the first week or so, life in the laundry room was pretty quiet, Momma ate truly eye-
popping amounts of food and nursed a lot - the babies squeaked and slept a lot. Not
much purposeful locomotion...as with puppies of that age motor skills seemed limited to
vigorous back leg scrabbling which took them most mostly around in circles.

One evening - somewhere around week 3.5 - we plunked down a chicken quarter
and left Mama to hunker down in peace. A few moments later we peeked in and caught a
startling (for me anyway) sight. Said chicken chunk had been highjacked by a miniscule
but extremely determined 'ninja' kitten. That bird was up on a 2 ½ -foot ledge (kitten-free
zone up to that point) and considerably bigger than junior…but no matter. The kitten
tugged, grunted & `sqrowled' with ferocious intent, very shortly joined by ninjas 2 & 3.
Number 4 made it up onto the ledge by climbing over no three's head. We were amused.
How much could they eat after all? Most of Ma's dinner it turned out.

Since then mealtimes have been no holds barred free-for-alls. They're about 14 weeks old
now and whatever makes an appearance on that food mat does not last long! Chicken/
rabbit/beef/pork/goat/lamb/sardines/catfish/herring/feeder chicks/mice/quail are all fair
game...nothing refused so far and very little waste. They also dispatch any bugs...crickets
etc, foolish enough to show themselves.

It's been fascinating to watch all sorts of instinctual behaviours appear and develop. These
guys NEVER stop playing and nothing seems without purpose. From the beginning we put
out plenty of toys – mice/birds/tunnels/trees etc and once they became mobile each new
item was spotted & checked out immediately. Fake prey items were interesting once the
real thing had been tasted & this seemed the point at which hunting/prey-handling
practice started in earnest.

I'm thrilled to say it looks like we may possibly have a fabulous NR home for 2 of these
cuties - Mama will likely be staying with us for a while as she's still pretty shy. This leaves
2 more babies to place. We're not limiting our search to the immediate area, but are more
than willing to drive/fly them wherever it takes in the US/Canada. Anyone interested (or
just in need of a grin) can check out the gang chowing down, playing and generally raising
hell at the link below. Apologies my filmaking skills are extremely basic :-0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdKYgaKIHgE

Marie-Claire ;)

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Kittens Getting Started - weeks 2 thru 14
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:24 am ((PDT))


Hi All

A few weeks ago I paid a visit to our local Home Depot to pick up some earth and a
shovel. Somehow, instead of the potting soil, about 20 minutes later I found myself
outside their garden dept clutching a box of 4 very tiny kittens.
############

Hi Marie-Claire,
Your movie was fantastic! What were the kittens eating--a mouse? They look so healthy :-)
Patty




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Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Beef necks??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:58 am ((PDT))

"cmhausrath" <cmhausrath@...> wrote:
>> Ah, but see, back in the glory days of Griffin's diet, back when
> Georgetown Farm in central VA was still raising not only quality
beef
> but also bison, and selling it at a criminally low price and cut
to
> specifications -- back then, I got hunks of beef neck that were
> dripping with meat, with a nice not-terribly-sliced-up chunk of
bone
> in the middle.
(Something like a half a vertebra per chunk, I
> think?
*****
The meat sounds perfect but I choose not to feed such small bones.
If I could find a beef processor here in Sacatomatoes I would pursue
the dream of whole meaty necks but the nearest possibility I've
found is a great Filipino butcher who cuts meat in the "back room".
He's willing to sell me meaty enough aitch bones but the neck he
cuts down for his "serious" customers (the whole shop thinks I'm
nuts). Or else he just plunders necks for the meat.

California, being the fifth wealthiest country in the world, seems
to have no lack of customers for fully processed beef; iconoclasts
be damned.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. {Raw Feeding} Lab work
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:15 am ((PDT))

I checked with my vet and they still haven't gotten the results from the
blood work taken from Max on Saturday. And the lab that Dr. Dodd uses is
the same lab that my vet uses. Why spend the extra money, if Dr. Dodd took
the blood sample and did the tests in her own lab I could see doing it but
that's just an extra step that I can avoid if my vet uses the same lab.

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:47 am ((PDT))

I was under the impression that Dr. Dodds does everything in-house. I took my dogs in last Thursday and got the personal call from Dr. Dodds on Friday. The paperwork for the titers came in the mail on Saturday, and the paperwork for the full thyroid and blood panels came in on Monday. I don't think that would be possible if they didn't do it in-house. Heck, I didn't think efficiency like that even existed anymore!

BTW, Dr. Dodds is quite possibly one of the nicest people I've ever met.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

10c. Re: {Raw Feeding} Lab work
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:47 pm ((PDT))

Are you in California though where she is? I'm in Oklahoma where the vet
would ship it to her in California then they would ship to
Tennessee...what's the point?

Brandi


On 10/31/07, Sonja <ladyver@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> I was under the impression that Dr. Dodds does everything in-house. I
> took my dogs in last Thursday and got the personal call from Dr. Dodds on
> Friday. The paperwork for the titers came in the mail on Saturday, and the
> paperwork for the full thyroid and blood panels came in on Monday. I don't
> think that would be possible if they didn't do it in-house. Heck, I didn't
> think efficiency like that even existed anymore!
>
> BTW, Dr. Dodds is quite possibly one of the nicest people I've ever met.
>
> Sonja
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
Posted by: "Lisa S." acbrio@shaw.ca trzazz
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:47 am ((PDT))

Hi,

I posted a couple videos I took of my dog eating two types of raw
food - a whole, furry rabbit ... and a chicken back (when he was a
pup).

Brio eating raw foods pictures / videos:
http://community.webshots.com/user/brioraw

Brio is a 40 pound Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, two and a half
years old.

If a few people would please tell me if the videos play OK for you
(picture and sound.... or which ones don't), I would appreciate it.
If it doesn't, if anyone has tips for a Mac person with iMovie on how
to make / format a better QuickTime movie for webshots, I'd
appreciate that. It displays choppy for me online.

Note - if the thought of a dog eating a whole, furry rabbit (head,
guts and all) bothers you ..... then you might not want to watch the
rabbit video.

I just ordered 3 more rabbits from my raw group, since my dog
apparently loves them ! It did take him 25 minutes to figure out how
to get started. The video shows clips him eating his first ever
whole, furry rabbit, head first, once he got going. It runs about 4
minutes. It actually took him an hour and a half or so (in two
sessions) to eat the whole rabbit. He ate every scrap - fur, feet and
all. He does his best to never touch his food with his paws, which I
find quite funny. Or perhaps that's a good thing, since he never gets
messy or tracks anything into the house !! I have never had to clean
him off. I guess he's a dainty, gentlemanly eater.

Hopefully I'll post more of videos or pictures at some point.

- Lisa S.
and Brio

Regular dog pictures:
http://community.webshots.com/user/acbrio

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:47 pm ((PDT))

Wonderfull videos!

On 10/31/07, Lisa S. <acbrio@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I posted a couple videos I took of my dog eating two types of raw
> food - a whole, furry rabbit ... and a chicken back (when he was a
> pup).
>
> Brio eating raw foods pictures / videos:
> http://community.webshots.com/user/brioraw
>
> Brio is a 40 pound Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, two and a half
> years old.
>
> If a few people would please tell me if the videos play OK for you
> (picture and sound.... or which ones don't), I would appreciate it.
> If it doesn't, if anyone has tips for a Mac person with iMovie on how
> to make / format a better QuickTime movie for webshots, I'd
> appreciate that. It displays choppy for me online.
>
> Note - if the thought of a dog eating a whole, furry rabbit (head,
> guts and all) bothers you ..... then you might not want to watch the
> rabbit video.
>
> I just ordered 3 more rabbits from my raw group, since my dog
> apparently loves them ! It did take him 25 minutes to figure out how
> to get started. The video shows clips him eating his first ever
> whole, furry rabbit, head first, once he got going. It runs about 4
> minutes. It actually took him an hour and a half or so (in two
> sessions) to eat the whole rabbit. He ate every scrap - fur, feet and
> all. He does his best to never touch his food with his paws, which I
> find quite funny. Or perhaps that's a good thing, since he never gets
> messy or tracks anything into the house !! I have never had to clean
> him off. I guess he's a dainty, gentlemanly eater.
>
> Hopefully I'll post more of videos or pictures at some point.
>
> - Lisa S.
> and Brio
>
> .
>
>
>

--
Scott


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: video - my dog eating a furry rabbit
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:47 pm ((PDT))


Hi Lisa--Just wanted to tell you your video was great--a little choppy, like you said. It's so interesting for me to hear that some other's dogs don't like to use their paws to eat--I was beginning to think there was something wrong with my little fellow.
:-) Patty


Hi,

I posted a couple videos I took of my dog eating two types of raw
food - a whole, furry rabbit ... and a chicken back (when he was a
pup).

.


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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: Newbi eIntro
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:52 am ((PDT))


> Hmm. Did you take the time to read the Admin Messages you received
> when your subscription was approved? One of them addresses the
> term "BARF" as well as the more representative "raw feeding". Here
> is the beginning paragraph:

LOL Come on. I'm a guy.

First thing I do when I buy something is throw out the instructions.
LOL

I have all the emails going to there own raw folder. I'll go and
actually read them.

Thanks for the links.

Jay


Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12224

There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Salmonella question
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2a. still swallowing whole
From: delcaste

3a. Re: Newbie Intro
From: aldona99

4. Lamb spine
From: jennifer_hell

5.1. Introduction
From: motyka_skathock


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:09 am ((PDT))


In a message dated 10/30/2007 7:35:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com writes:

I probably try ask them to supervise my dog when eating if possible.



*** when we board the dogs while we travel (it's kinda tough taking all 9
dogs on vacation with us) we bag and freeze each meal individually. each dog
gets it's own bag with it's name. I don't tell them which order to feed the
meals.

the last time we boarded Otis at the University Animal Hospital in Phoenix,
AZ. we got a great report card back. and everybody that helped care for Otis
commented on how nice and sweet he was and how much he LOVED is raw food..
lol.

One of the things i found when looking for boarding facilities is that the
folks that run them realize that they are providing a service and their
customers have other options. They will feed what you provide.. no matter what it is.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. still swallowing whole
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:04 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:

> This is where Big Food/little food works so well. Yes, give him a
big
> honking chicken. Or a big honking pork shoulder roast. Or a pork
> haunch. Or half a turkey. And then feed nothing (or a small
> something) the next day. Mix this BIG/little arrangement in with
what
> you would otherwise feed; keep it interesting, make him work for
his
> food at least once in a while.
> Chris O

I am having trouble with my pugs. I've given up on one but the other
one eats like you say she's supposed to: she rips and tears and
swallows those pieces she's torn. So far so good, in fact, I loved
watching her because she was doing so, so good. But the other day I
gave her some lamb @ 6 oz, sort or "ribboned" and she choked! I
thougth I had lost her. I kept doing the Heimlich and was able to get
the offending piece out. She did the same thing the following day (it
was goat meat that I had left, not frozen, but "hard." I truly
believe that if I hadn't intervened, she would have choked to death.
Please tell me what exactly should I give her for dinner? She won't
self-regulate. Maybe large chunk of beef/pork ribs? Goat leg? She
will tackle these with gusto. Big pieces one day then on the next day
a piece of kidney with gizzard? I'm lost.

Silvina

Silvina

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Newbie Intro
Posted by: "aldona99" aldona99@yahoo.com aldona99
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:04 am ((PDT))

Hi Jay!

I'm with you. We also have a garden, and our dogs used to help
themselves to all kinds of non-meat, non-bone foods like apples and
pears fallen from trees, even nuts growing in our gardens.

I've "heard" that some dogs will eat their meats "whole", but I've
never actually seen it done. My samoyed used to hunt frogs! But as far
as a deer head, or whole pig's head... sorry, I still shudder at the
thought of my dogs eating like that.

I am sure, that if we lived in an area where this was of feeding were
common, and we had at least one hunter in the family, that I could see
throwing them some freshly killed animal.

I could easily do away with any supplements in our pet's diets, and if
feeding raw meats and bones and organs will do it, then let it be.
This way of feeding on this list is really something totally new for
me, but I am open to change.

I offered Marley his oatmeal from yesterday and he totally ignored it,
so Sheldon gladly ate it. I promise, that WAS the last time I'm
preparing the stuff. See! I'm slowly making the transition from what
I've been used to in the past, to a more natural canine way of life.

Thanks,
Aldona in Germany.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry Andrea. I'm not trying to debate you on this. It's just something
> I have not heard of in anything I read as far as feeding raw. Out of
> the norm for me.
>
> You are correct Andrea. This is a training issue.


Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4. Lamb spine
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:04 am ((PDT))

are these hard bones, or do your dogs eat it whole? I'd like to know
whether to expect my girl to have a boney meal with that, or if she'll
have to rip of the meat (like she does with venison).


Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5.1. Introduction
Posted by: "motyka_skathock" motyka_skathock@yahoo.com motyka_skathock
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:23 am ((PDT))

Hi, My name is Kris. I've just switched my dog, Mack, to raw foods.
Mack is an 8 month old, Lab/pit/GSD/Rotti who is an insatiable chewer.
He's always been a "snacker" He won't eat a meal he just picks
throughout the day. I am a live in nanny, my boss owns his mother and
uses an automatic feeder for her. I've restricted access to the feed
dish and started giving him small (2lb) feeder hens. It's been two
days and he's eating about 1 1/4 pounds twice a day. He's a really
careful chewer but he is making me nervous. He will start at the neck
and work his way down but about halfway through he literally has half
the bird in his mouth. Is this normal? Also, I am unable to access
archives from any of the links, I think it's this computer so if I ask
a repeat question I apologize. I've saved all the digests I've
received and will organize them and consult them before asking. Thank
you for your time.

Kris and Mack

Messages in this topic (355)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12223

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Newbi eIntro
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Newbi eIntro
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
From: Tina Berry
2b. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
From: girlndocs

3a. pork shoulder blade
From: brutus_buckley
3b. Re: pork shoulder blade
From: Sandee Lee
3c. Re: pork shoulder blade
From: cynthiashankman
3d. Re: pork shoulder blade
From: cmhausrath
3e. Re: pork shoulder blade
From: cmhausrath
3f. Re: pork shoulder blade
From: cynthiashankman
3g. Re: pork shoulder blade
From: Sandee Lee
3h. Beef necks??
From: babyboyfila1
3i. Re: Beef necks??
From: costrowski75
3j. Re: Beef necks??
From: cmhausrath
3k. Re: Beef necks??
From: Yasuko herron

4a. Re: Salmonella question
From: brutus_buckley
4b. Re: Salmonella question
From: Yasuko herron

5a. Re: Eating carcass but not whole chicken?
From: Nicole
5b. Re: Eating carcass but not whole chicken?
From: Laurie Swanson

6. Beef Kidneys/another pregnancy question
From: diannem200400

7a. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
From: cynthiashankman
7b. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
From: Giselle
7c. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
From: Morledzep@aol.com

8a. Re: Dogs Losing Weight Advice
From: mikkeny
8b. Re: Dogs Losing Weight Advice
From: Yasuko herron


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Newbi eIntro
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:51 pm ((PDT))

No need to apologise! There is a ton of misinformation in the form of
old wive's tales out there. Feel free to voice any concerns you have
about raw feeding. We were all new at one point.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry Andrea. I'm not trying to debate you on this. It's just
> something I have not heard of in anything I read as far as feeding
> raw. Out of the norm for me.

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Newbi eIntro
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi Jay,

Sounds like my yard! :)) I feed my Danes chicken, turkey and deer out in
the yard with live chickens, turkey and deer. They haven't chased anything
yet and don't associate them with the food I provide. We've hauled home
some pretty intact fresh carcasses, fresh warm tripe, etc., and I feed fresh
poultry but they don't think of the live ones as food. In fact the biggest
problem around here is the chickens trying to steal the dog's food! It's
pretty funny watching a flock of chickens come running when the dogs get fed
outside, hoping for any little morsel. :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@yahoo.com>

I have a problem with the thought of letting my dog eat any dead
animal that is still intact. I would think this could be very
confusing to my dog. How do you tell him it's okay to eat a dead deer
I drag out of the woods for him and not the ones walking around in my
yard?

It's totally illegal to hunt down animals with a dog here in CT as in
most other states. If anyone sees a dog chasing down a deer or any
game animal they can legally shoot the dog on sight.

I have deer and turkeys in my yard daily. I don't want my dog
thinking its meal time when he smells or sees a deer and starts
chasing one down.


Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

"A true food allergen isn't going to go away due to raw... "

Unless it's a grain allergy which is super common. Taking grains out of a
pets diet has eliminated many allergies - but as mentioned, it can also be
other type of allergies not food related.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: Allergies in raw vs. cooked meats
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:01 pm ((PDT))

Golden! Thanks so much Andrea.

This whole episode has reminded me not to spout my mouth off about
information I haven't personally researched and verified.

Kristin

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know that you really need studies to prove it. Someone is
> allergic to something because their body sees a specific protein as
> an antigen and produces antibodies to get rid of it. The protein
> needs to be a specific shape in order for the antibodies to hook up
> with it. Cooking denatures many proteins, that is, it changes their
> shape, so they can't connect with the antibodies anymore. Or vice
> versa, cooking changes the shape of the protein so that it *does*
> hook up with an antibody.

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. pork shoulder blade
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

Just curious: anyone's dog able to eat the whole blade? My oldest
bullie just chews on the ends, but my pup almost ate the whole thing
the other night. I couldn't beleive it! She is a little maniac when it
comes to food.
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (11)
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3b. Re: pork shoulder blade
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:23 pm ((PDT))

Renee,

The Danes generally eat the entire blade...once in a while there will be a
tiny piece left behind.
Your pup sounds darling! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "brutus_buckley" <brutus_buckley@yahoo.com>


Just curious: anyone's dog able to eat the whole blade? My oldest
bullie just chews on the ends, but my pup almost ate the whole thing
the other night. I couldn't beleive it! She is a little maniac when it
comes to food.

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: pork shoulder blade
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:51 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:

> The Danes generally eat the entire blade...once in a while there will
be a
> tiny piece left behind.
> Your pup sounds darling!

I have read a lot about pork shoulder here and I want to make sure I
bought the right thing. The piece of bone inside the meat I bought is
retangular in shape. Maybe 8 x 6, like large index card. My 30 lb.
dog at the whole thing except a 1" x 1" piece that was stuck on his
tooth. I just pulled the piece off and threw it away.

Does that sound like the pork shoulder you are all talking about?

Cindi

Messages in this topic (11)
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3d. Re: pork shoulder blade
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:57 pm ((PDT))

"brutus_buckley" <brutus_buckley@...> wrote:

> Just curious: anyone's dog able to eat the whole blade?


Yep. Back in the day, Griff would eat the whole thing at a sitting
(blade roast or picnic roast, whatever I happened to pick up -- never
noticed a difference in his response), as in:
http://rawfeddogs.net/RecipePhoto/32/11

Now, he'll get it spaced out over several days, but he still eats the
whole thing, unless I take parts of it away. Then again, he'll also
eat beef necks, oxtail, and occasionally beef ribs in their entirety.

I'm hoping he likes mutton just as well -- since I have two complete
ewes (heads & all) waiting for me to pick up this weekend.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (11)
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3e. Re: pork shoulder blade
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:00 pm ((PDT))

"cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:


> I have read a lot about pork shoulder here and I want to make sure I
> bought the right thing. The piece of bone inside the meat I bought
is
> retangular in shape. Maybe 8 x 6, like large index card.


Well, that doesn't sound like either the picnic roasts or the blade
roasts I usually get (maybe something like a butt roast?), but the good
news is, it hardly matters. All parts of the pig are good feeding, so
if your dog likes it and does well on it, keep it up!!

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (11)
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3f. Re: pork shoulder blade
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cmhausrath" <cmhausrath@...> wrote:
>
> Well, that doesn't sound like either the picnic roasts or the blade
> roasts I usually get (maybe something like a butt roast?), but the
good
> news is, it hardly matters. All parts of the pig are good feeding,
so
> if your dog likes it and does well on it, keep it up!!

Thanks! Hmmm I wonder what I had??? Well I feel comfortable now
knowing that all parts of the pig are good feeding. I think next time
I will go to the store and actually as for the picnic roast or the
blade roast.

Thanks!

Cindi

Messages in this topic (11)
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3g. Re: pork shoulder blade
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:00 pm ((PDT))

That's exactly what I've been feeding and it's labeled a pork shoulder blade
roast!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@aol.com>

I have read a lot about pork shoulder here and I want to make sure I
bought the right thing. The piece of bone inside the meat I bought is
retangular in shape. Maybe 8 x 6, like large index card. My 30 lb.
dog at the whole thing except a 1" x 1" piece that was stuck on his
tooth. I just pulled the piece off and threw it away.

Does that sound like the pork shoulder you are all talking about?

Cindi

Messages in this topic (11)
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3h. Beef necks??
Posted by: "babyboyfila1" babyboyfila1@yahoo.com babyboyfila1
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))


> eat beef necks, oxtail, and occasionally beef ribs in their
entirety.


where in the heck do you get a beef neck?
Dawn

Messages in this topic (11)
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3i. Re: Beef necks??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:15 pm ((PDT))

"babyboyfila1" <babyboyfila1@...> wrote:
> where in the heck do you get a beef neck?
*****
I can get them by the case from a local supermarket; they get them
whole but for their customers slice them, making the necks even less
useful for my retrievers. I could probably also order some from the
meat wholesaler I buy from, but I haven't asked.

Virtually all beef necks, whether they're purchased sliced or whole,
are lacking meaningful meat. For small dogs the nooks and crannies
probably provide a meaty enough meal; for big dogs whole beef necks
are bones with some meat on them. IMO they are kinder on teeth than
marrow or knuckle bones and carry more meat. They are not
brilliantly meaty though.

Oh, and they're not really whole, they're sliced lengthwise. This
is insult enough, but then most retailers slice the slice crosswise,
which diminishes the size even more.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (11)
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3j. Re: Beef necks??
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

"costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "babyboyfila1" <babyboyfila1@> wrote:
> > where in the heck do you get a beef neck?
> *****
> ... Oh, and they're not really whole, they're sliced lengthwise.


Ah, but see, back in the glory days of Griffin's diet, back when
Georgetown Farm in central VA was still raising not only quality beef
but also bison, and selling it at a criminally low price and cut to
specifications -- back then, I got hunks of beef neck that were
dripping with meat, with a nice not-terribly-sliced-up chunk of bone
in the middle. (Something like a half a vertebra per chunk, I
think? I rarely got a good look at them -- Griff motored through
them fairly quickly.) I can't remember what they charged for those,
but I do remember that bags of beef and bison "trim" -- basically odd
hunks of meat, with some fat but not an overwhelming amount -- were
under $1 a pound.

Those low prices may have contributed to the short-lived nature of
the place, but man, while it lasted, it was wonderful.

I'd try asking any beef processor, if you're lucky enough to get to
know one.

-- sandy & griffin (about to re-enter the glory days, once Mom gets
off her butt and picks up the two sheep she's bought)

Messages in this topic (11)
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3k. Re: Beef necks??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:35 pm ((PDT))

>> where in the heck do you get a beef neck?

Shoppers Grocery store carry Beef Neck,Lamb Neck,Pork Leck too.

the package I have got monthsago is big enough for my dog as is,and I got those packages there and when I feed,I add more boneless meat to it.

If the size was smaller than you want it to be,ask the meat guy behind the counter and he may have something uncut.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (11)
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4a. Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

//In other words, she's been eating raw chicken (and some pork ribs)
for a month - so what risks could be involved if she's now fed k**ble
for 4 days??//

***Alex,
There's no need to resort to kibble just because someone else is caring
for your pets. I simply make all my dog's meals, bag and lable them and
leave instructions. Of course, I try to plan meals that aren't going to
freak out my non-raw feeding neighbors. For example, I wouldn't ask
them to feed a goat head while I'm gone <g> but maybe a few boneless
meals or chicken breasts. Even many boarding facilities will feed your
dog raw if you bring the food. When we travel, we do the same thing:
plan out the meals and toss them into a cooler. It's really no big deal.

Also, just because your dog has been 'vax'd2themax' doesn't mean it's
too late to feed raw: quite the opposite! This is a *great* reason to
start feeding raw. A raw diet isn't going to undo years of vaccine
damage; it is not a miracle cure...but it will help and you will see
your dog benefit from this diet.

-Renee W.


Messages in this topic (17)
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4b. Re: Salmonella question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:35 pm ((PDT))

> maybe a few boneless meals or chicken breasts. Even many boarding facilities will feed your dog raw if you bring the food.

I agree.I asked the boarding place when I was about switching to raw,and they said that they feed whatever owner brings,so,I am planning to label the bag with date/day/pets' name on it and bag up the meal in zip bag frozen except just one meal and hand to staff at boarding place.

I probably would not bag up something that require long gnawing time such as Neck or tail or ribs.. maybe boneless meat from any animals with cut-up poultry like Turkey or chicken etc. That way,staff would not worry about bone thing just as I felt when I was just about starting..If poultry,soft enough to crunch down without too much worry.

I probably try ask them to supervise my dog when eating if possible.

And I probably tell them do not give any biscuit or anything they have at their place.'cause my dog tends to get bad diarrhear if fed commercial made treats now.If your dog is ok with those things,then,fine,but not mine..

yassy

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Messages in this topic (17)
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5a. Re: Eating carcass but not whole chicken?
Posted by: "Nicole" reotec@mertonrush.com.au mammosgrub
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:16 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the replys - the drumsticks were frozen inside the cavity
of the chicken frames -so it makes a big frozen lump when frozen -
takes him a while to gnaw it all apart. that shouldnt be a choking
hazard like that should it? It is the same size as the whole chicken
i feed - so no difference in size - but maybe texture and taste?
We are away for the weekend - but will perservere next week with the
whole chicken thing.. thanks for the advice.. it sure makes it easier
to be able to ask questions like these.
kindest regards
nicole and maverick

Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Re: Eating carcass but not whole chicken?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:12 pm ((PDT))

Nicole,

Sounds like it's probably not a choking hazard like that. Maybe he was
confused since it was thawed that time. I'm sure you'll work it out!
Get back to us if you continue to have issues. Just don't swap things
out and cater to him TOO much or he'll learn to hold out for something
better ("Hmmm...I wonder what I might get if I just don't eat this?").
That said, I do listen to my dog somewhat... :-)

Laurie

Messages in this topic (6)
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6. Beef Kidneys/another pregnancy question
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:43 pm ((PDT))

I have worked my way through most of the archives on rawfeeding
pregnant bitches, but I am still not comfortable I'm doing okay with my
girl. This is my first rawfed pregnancy. She is 130 lbs and about 31/2
weeks pregnant. She loves all raw meat and has never turned down
anything new. About 3 days ago, she stopped eating. I've tried beef,
pork, rabbit and venison, no go. She will eat beef or pork tongue, and
a tad of beef heart and craves organ meats. I think she would eat
those exclusively if I let her. I know not to overdo the liver, but I
wonder how much beef kidney I can safely give her. She will not touch
fat and does not want any bone. This morning I gave her a few pieces
of Natural Balance Beef and Rice roll that I use for show training, and
she wolfed them down. Questions: How much beef kidney is too much?
Should I feed her some NB roll during this time just to get an array of
vitamins and minerals in her? Do any of you rawfeeding breeders have
any advice for this refusal to eat?

THANKS for any responses.

Dianne M.

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, autumnji@... wrote:
>
> she's been doing great on chicken backs, organs
> and necks for over 2 months. i mean really great.
> she'll do anything i ask, for me to please put that bowl down.
> moving on is long overdue.

Sorry to be a pest here, but isn't the above menu way to high in
bone. Shouldn't we explain to Autumn that her chi needs 80% meat. I
don't feel at liberty to explain that as I am so new to this myself
and I'm trying to understand all this theory behind this too. How
could the dog be thriving on so little meat???

I am not trying to be a pest, I'm just trying to undersand the
learning curve for all of us alone in our houses, bucking the system,
doing this with one dog, coming from a conventional place, feeling
like a bit of a weirdo while everyone else we know is feeding ki$$le.

A bit of an insight from this recent newbie ... this is hard and even
though we are in a healthy state of mind, we can still do it wrong.
A person can do a good thing incorrectly. We are all trying to do
right by our dogs.

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:45 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Cynthia and Autumn!
Cynthia, you're right, new-to-raw peeps
do need to learn the basics of raw feeding. They do need the help, advice
and support from experienced raw feeders on this list. And many of us are
pleased to be able to help those who come to this list for the best ways to
feed a species appropriate raw whole prey model diet.

But many of these same people seem to blow off the files sent to them as new
subscribers, don't read them, don't print them out, don't follow the links
or don't take in the significance of the information provided to their own
dogs.

A lot of them have read so much dreck online and in the 'experts' books that
they are very confused, and can't remember where they read what information,
and so skip a lot of the important info provided by the files, don't follow
the links and don't search the archived messages on this list. They simply
have information overload, and can't figure out what's relevant and
important for them to remember, and what's not.

Also, many new subscribers don't take the time to give complete or coherent
information in their posts, or even have the courtesy to sign their names or
tell us about their dogs so that we can know and care about who we are asked
to help.

Those of us who volunteer our time to answer questions by newbies who don't
do their 'homework' can get burned out by the sheer volume of the sameness
of the questions posted.

We DO remember what it was like being a newbie to raw, that is why we stay
active on the list, and offer our experience, advice and support. Many of us
have been raw feeding for 5, 10, 15, 20 or more years, and feed multiple
dogs. We came to raw feeding by critical thinking, trial and error, and not
a lot of support or ready made information.

That said, feeding raw to your dogs doesn't take the mental ability of a
rocket scientist, its not brain surgery. ^_^

It takes common sense, trust in yourself as a competent adult, and the
knowledge that dogs are wolves, and both are carnivores. Being carnivorous
means that you eat the critters that eat the vegetation. You don't need a
grinder, or a food processor, or a juicer. You don't need supplements or
additives, all your nutrients are in one package. You take advantage of
seasonal prey, you follow it when it migrates if necessary. And, if you find
yourself in lean times or without a pack to help you take down large
critters, you catch mice, or rabbits, or birds, or you fish.

Whether a dog weighs 2 pounds or 200 pounds, they all need plenty of meat, a
little edible bone, and some organs. Common sense will tell you that a pack
of 2 pound wolves would search out small prey, and a pack of 200 pound
wolves would need very large prey indeed. ; )

The 80% meatymeat (muscle, skin, fat, connective tissue), 10% edible bone
and 10% organ (5% of which is liver, 5% is 'other') is a helpful GUIDELINE,
not a hard and fast rule. Truth is, each prey animal has a different
percentage of meat to bone to organ ratio, and each one is 'perfect' for
that critter. The larger the critter, the less available edible bone,
depending on the size of your dogs. A specific ratio is helpful to be able
to quote to newbies, who want to be TOLD what and how much to feed by
EXPERTS and want hard and fast RULES to follow. There is plenty of variation
in the amount of 'perfect' meatymeat to edible bone to organs needed by each
individual dog. The closer you feed to prey model, the closer you get to
'perfect' feeding for your own dog.

Short term - limited protein sources, too much or too little edible bone and
organs doesn't matter too much to a dog's health. But, Balance Over Time IS
important, and the sooner after you start raw that you begin to add in a
variety of protein, edible bone and organs in the form of whole prey or
animal parts, the better for your dog's long term optimum health.

Here's a link to the list's files. There's some very good reading and
informative links there;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/files/

The archives, if you use some simple search keywords, like new to raw,
newbie, puppy, etc. can turn up many helpful messages;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?date=before&DM=9&DD=20&DY=2007&DM2=------------&DD2=----&DY2=----&AM=contains&AT=&SM=contains&ST=new+to+raw+newbie&MM=contains&MT=&charset=UTF-8
*http://tinyurl.com/2wjp9z
*
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?date=any&DM=------------&DD=----&DY=----&DM2=------------&DD2=----&DY2=----&AM=contains&AT=&SM=contains&ST=new+to+raw+newbie+puppy&MM=contains&MT=&charset=UTF-8
*
**http://tinyurl.com/38lrqk

*Some informational links to websites and archived posts that are helpful to
new to raw people, no matter the size of their dogs; *
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144402

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144075

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143301
Some online sources of whole prey;

http://www.rodentpro.com/products.asp

http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/StoreFront

http://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=23

www.taylorpondfarm*s*.com/ <http://www.taylorpondfarms.com/>

http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/meatcharts.html
TC, Cynthia, and Autumn - let us know how you progress with raw feeding your
dogs!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 10/30/07, cynthiashankman <ShankMa4@aol.com> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>,
> autumnji@... wrote:
> >
> > she's been doing great on chicken backs, organs
> > and necks for over 2 months. i mean really great.
> > she'll do anything i ask, for me to please put that bowl down.
> > moving on is long overdue.
>
> Sorry to be a pest here, but isn't the above menu way to high in
> bone. Shouldn't we explain to Autumn that her chi needs 80% meat. I
> don't feel at liberty to explain that as I am so new to this myself
> and I'm trying to understand all this theory behind this too. How
> could the dog be thriving on so little meat???
>
> I am not trying to be a pest, I'm just trying to undersand the
> learning curve for all of us alone in our houses, bucking the system,
> doing this with one dog, coming from a conventional place, feeling
> like a bit of a weirdo while everyone else we know is feeding ki$$le.
>
> A bit of an insight from this recent newbie ... this is hard and even
> though we are in a healthy state of mind, we can still do it wrong.
> A person can do a good thing incorrectly. We are all trying to do
> right by our dogs.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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7c. Re: 7# Chihuahua Ready for more than chicken
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:58 am ((PDT))


In a message dated 10/30/2007 3:02:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ShankMa4@aol.com writes:

A bit of an insight from this recent newbie ... this is hard and even
though we are in a healthy state of mind, we can still do it wrong.
A person can do a good thing incorrectly. We are all trying to do
right by our dogs.



***seriously.. chicken backs and necks.. are TOO MUCH BONE. This can and will
cause constipation and possibly impaction over time..

but one of the big things that all newbies have to get over is making this
hard for themselves.

we try to mimick a prey animal fed over time. and you basic average prey
animal is APPROXIMATELY (this varies from one prey animal to the next.. these are
only approximate percentages) 10% edible bone, 10% organ meats (liver,
kidney, sweetbreads, lungs, spleen. Heart is considered a muscle meat because it's
almost solid muscle even though it is an internal organ). The rest.. skin,
meat, fat, connective tissue, fat, meat, digestive tract parts, etc. is about
80% of the overall diet.

the thing to do is stop worrying so much about percentages.. feed MEAT, MEAT
on a bone, and organs. It seriously isn't any more difficult than that.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. Re: Dogs Losing Weight Advice
Posted by: "mikkeny" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:28 pm ((PDT))


> Here's the problem: both of my dogs are pretty significantly
> underweight.

>> Is their weight loss likely just a lack of fat in their diet?

Menhaden is an oily fish, but also bony...I would think that it's more
a lack of meat in the diet than anything. Menhaden aren't
particularly meaty, you know?

>Would adding pork fat
> to the fish be helpful or cause more problems? We just this weekend
> found a good price on bulk chicken "giblet" packages (the neck/organs
> found stuffed inside grocery store chickens), so I'm adding that, but
> is that likely to directly help this issue?

Any extra meat you can get into them would be wonderful and meat would
be more desirable than fat, since they likely get plenty of fat from
the fish.

Are you in the US? If so, it's deer season and there's free bounty to
be had if you can hook up with the right folks...

Casey

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: Dogs Losing Weight Advice
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:04 pm ((PDT))

Why not trying fatty cut of meat;mutton,lamb??

If you live in US,mutton can be found at hare today in PA.

yassy

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