Feed Pets Raw Food

Thursday, August 2, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11875

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: HELP! Freaking out here with my mini-doxie
From: marblekallie

2a. Re: Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
From: ginny wilken
2b. Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
From: brenda
2c. Re: Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
From: temy1102
2d. Re: Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
From: ychinook

3a. Re: Can you feed bone every meal?
From: cmhausrath

4. Lost group info - O/T
From: Me

5a. Immunisation - O/T - Error
From: Me
5b. Re: Immunisation - O/T - Error
From: ginny wilken

6a. Re: chicken skin and oil
From: doreenchui
6b. Re: chicken skin and oil
From: ginny wilken

7a. How many lbs. can you fit into a standard refrigerator?
From: temy1102
7b. Re: How many lbs. can you fit into a standard refrigerator?
From: cmhausrath

8a. Re: all these problems
From: halojo45
8b. all these problems
From: Ivette Casiano

9a. HELP! Just starting out -- they refused to eat it!!!!
From: Cynthia Brown
9b. Re: HELP! Just starting out -- they refused to eat it!!!!
From: Jenny S
9c. Re: HELP! Just starting out -- they refused to eat it!!!!
From: magolin0328

10a. Re: Directory for Pro-Raw Food / Holistic Vets ???
From: Cynthia Brown

11a. Feeding Dogs Livestock Afterbirth
From: corgihouse62
11b. Re: Feeding Dogs Livestock Afterbirth
From: mousegirls

12. Re: ]Re: Help! Diarrhea! Answers to your Questions
From: Ivette Casiano

13a. Costs of Raw Feeding
From: Cherie Ferebee
13b. Re: Costs of Raw Feeding
From: cmhausrath

14a. Re: raw feeding my cat
From: linoleum5017


Messages
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1a. Re: HELP! Freaking out here with my mini-doxie
Posted by: "marblekallie" marble@pipeline.com marblekallie
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 4:55 pm ((PDT))

Hi:

Don't worry, I felt the same a few years ago. I was sure that chicken
bones would pierce those delicate new intestines, so I consider your
anxiety totally normal.

FWIW I have 4 mini dachsies I feed raw. The youngest was 3 months a
month a go when I started her out. I was astonished what she could
put away. I gave her chicken (all parts) then goat, beef, liver,
heart, kidney, tripe. Some were consumable bones, some, like ribs
were really meaty meat which had to be ripped off the bone. Her
stools have been perfect. The only anxious moment was when she tried
to swallow a really large piece. It went down, but was uncomfortable
for a moment before it came up again and was re-chewed and then
swallowed again. A minute or so later, everything was fine. We will
be trying some mackrel soon.

The others have been eating raw meaty bones and fish for close to 4
years, and apart from the occasional mistake by me giving the wrong
size of bone (which subsequently gets stuck in the back teeth and
which mom has to remove with her patented method), I have had no
problems. You will be so happy when those milk teeth come out when
they are supposed to along with those pearly whites and clean breath.
Don't forget the ease of picking up those unoffensive little ppops as
an added bonus to the good health you are promoting.

Philippa Jordan
New York City

> He chewed it and I
> heard the bones cracking but it didn't seem he chewed that long and
> swallowed them pretty quickly. Now I'm freaking out that his tummy
may
> get ruptured! Should I be concerned here or as long as it went down
> his throat OK he'll be fine??
>


Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 4:57 pm ((PDT))


On Aug 2, 2007, at 1:47 PM, Cynthia Brown wrote:

> In their book Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for
> Dogs & Cats, the doctors say that non-accident related cataracts
> are sometimes an "accompaniment of chronic disease and immune
> disorders". By my reasoning, if a raw diet can eliminate disease
> and improve overall systemic health ... and, if non-accident
> related cataracts are a symptom of the disease that has been
> eliminated -- VOILA, no more cataracts.


Yes, wonderful where it works. But "chronic disease" and "immune
disorders" are, by definition, not simple matters of malnutrition.
Where they are, then food will fix it - up to the point where the
system simply has no more bright ideas about how to fix itself. These
terms are best reserved for the sort of "endless loop" diseases,
where functions just don't do what they should - tissues being
attacked, digestion being incomplete, nerves failing because of
injury to the myelin sheath - these are not simply repaired with food.

Pitcairn was referring to homeopathic chronic disease, and so am I.
When diet has done all it can, one needs to look further, to this
marvelous science which can give the body guidance - nothing more,
nothing less - by which to repair its own dysfunction. Cataracts do
have a huge nutritional component, and they will show up in dogs with
a predilection to form them whenever they are stressed, whether by
food or drugs or mistreatment. But if they do not resolve by
providing an excellent diet, then there is still the possibility that
homeopathy can provide the clue the body needs to restore itself.

ginny and Tomo


All stunts performed without a net!


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Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
Posted by: "brenda" brendanbreeze@hotmail.com breezenlexi
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 5:16 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Ivette Casiano <ivettecasiano@...>
wrote:
>
> "Anyone have experience with cataract improvement since feeding their
dogs on the raw food plan?"
>
> We have a Jack Russell. We have been feeding raw for almost a year
now and he is 13 years old. He was getting really stiff and acting old
but since going raw he has WAY more energy and plays and chases again.
But he is almost blind with cataracts and that has not changed. He had
ear problems but that has completely disappeared. His coat has softened
tremendously. He is a smooth coat but in bed he felt like a pocupine
but not so much now. Brenda
>
> ---------------------------------
> Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new
Car Finder tool.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 5:48 pm ((PDT))

no change that i can see in my oldie's slightly cloudy left eye, for
better or worse. but i'm okay with that, because now he goes up and
down stairs, something he hasn't done in YEARS.

tammy & grover & tod

Messages in this topic (8)
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2d. Re: Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
Posted by: "ychinook" chinook.nr@tds.net ychinook
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

I've had a little experience with cataracts so I thought I'd note what
little I know.

I've been through the lens replacement operation on both eyes and
adjusted my diet to try to prevent any further eye problems. Also my
five year old malamute Buddy Bear has congenital cataracts which
affect his direct frontal vision, but not his peripheral vision. Even
if one wanted cataract surgery by a veterinary specialist for their
dog, such is generally not done for congenital cataracts, so I've also
researched eye health diet issues for dogs.

I haven't found any solid scientific evidence of good diet reducing
cataracts, but a good diet has been found to help prevent further
deterioration in many cases.

Basically the diet information breaks down to sufficient omega-3 in
balance with omega-6, antioxidants, vitamins C and E, zinc and copper.
For Buddy Bear I don't consider plant based sources as a carnivore is
ill equipped to extract the nutrients from such. So the diet
components are:

Omega 6 and 3 balance of 5:1 or less
The best source is deep cold water fish but with todays pollution
and prices this can be a problem. Also, much of the red meat and
poultry in the supermarket is not grass fed/ free ranging and doesn't
contain enough omega-3. I add a quality salmon oil to my and my dog's
diet.

Antioxidants
A good source is egg yoke if I remember correctly.

Vitamins C and E
Canine physiology produces its own vitamin C. A good source of
vitamin E is liver, but don't overdo the liver because you don't want
to build up the fat soluble vitamins A, D, E and K.

Zinc
Good sources are oysters and hamberg.

Copper
Good sources are oysters and shell fish, kidneys and liver.

Hopefully others will clarify, add to and/or correct what I've said.

Best to you and yours,
Lee, Karen, Buddy Bear and Holly


Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Re: Can you feed bone every meal?
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 5:00 pm ((PDT))

"spicemother" <spicemother@...> wrote:

> Are you able to feed bone every meal? I always give the thigh bones
> at every meal (twice a day) she likes them but for the first time in a
> month she threw a little piece of bone back up it scared me.


I do not feed bone every meal. I would guesstimate that my dog doesn't
eat bone more than once every couple days. When he gets more than
that, he does what your dog did: horks back up the offending bony
bits. It seems that, in his old age, he just can't process bones like
he used to. So I feed mostly meatymeat meals. It's not a big deal:
unlike kibble, raw feeding can be tweaked and adjusted to suit the
individual dog. That's what we've done, by adjusting to feed less
bone, and it's what you can do too.

If your dog feels that two thighs a day are too much bone, it's easy to
just feed something boneless for one of those meals. Remember that
only about 10% of the diet needs to be edible bone -- most of what
you're feeding should indeed be meat, fat, skin, and connective tissue.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (4)
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4. Lost group info - O/T
Posted by: "Me" earthmoontide@yahoo.com.au earthmoontide
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi - I've lost the details of a yahoo group I used to belong to. It
was a group that discussed dangers of immunising, and I need to ask
some advice. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks,
Caz.

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Immunisation - O/T - Error
Posted by: "Me" earthmoontide@yahoo.com.au earthmoontide
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

hi - I've just posted for information on a group about immunisations,
and have just realised that it wasn't immunisation - it was about
homoepathics for pets (that also discussed immunisation).

Can anyone help, please?

Thanks,
Caz.

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Immunisation - O/T - Error
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 5:48 pm ((PDT))


On Aug 2, 2007, at 5:30 PM, Me wrote:

> hi - I've just posted for information on a group about immunisations,
> and have just realised that it wasn't immunisation - it was about
> homoepathics for pets (that also discussed immunisation).
>
> Can anyone help, please?
>
> Thanks,
> Caz.


jstsayno2vaccs

TruthAboutVaccines

ClassicalHomeopathyPets


...all three do pretty much what you describe. So go find it!

ginny and Tomo


All stunts performed without a net!


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Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: chicken skin and oil
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

> > Is it true that chicken skin and the oil is good for their skin and
> > coat?
> *****
>
>
> In the dogfood industy, chicken is almost certainly the primary
> animal protein, so it makes sense that chicken would be promoted as
> being especially useful for skin and coat.
> Chris O
>
Thanks for your reply.
My whippet seems to like chicken skin and fats. Can I add some onto his
beef meal?
Doreen

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: chicken skin and oil
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 6:02 pm ((PDT))


On Aug 2, 2007, at 5:18 PM, doreenchui wrote:

>>> Is it true that chicken skin and the oil is good for their skin and
>>> coat?
>> *****
>>
>>
>> In the dogfood industy, chicken is almost certainly the primary
>> animal protein, so it makes sense that chicken would be promoted as
>> being especially useful for skin and coat.
>> Chris O
>>
> Thanks for your reply.
> My whippet seems to like chicken skin and fats. Can I add some onto
> his
> beef meal?
> Doreen


Doreen, note that Chris did not give you a yes or no answer:) Every
animal's fat is good in as far as it is part and parcel of the animal
fed. And given in proportion, it's just fine food. I suspect that the
folks thus promoting chicken fat are feeding or addressing those who
do feed kibble. Adding any raw fat to a diet woefully plentiful in
oxidized saturated fat will make a difference - the more inadequate
the diet, the easier to improve, eh?

So, I think your whippet's needs for fat are best met by feeding all
sorts of animal fats, and this might be easiest if you feed the same
fat as the animal, and even more so if it's attached. How about
chicken fat on the chicken, and beef fat on the beef, etc? Also note
that commercially fed chickens are pretty heavily biased away from
beneficial Omega 3's and high in the fairly useless Omega 6's. Along
with that comes the possibility of secondhand grain allergies,
through the poor diet of the prey. So, chicken is as chicken does,
and i think there are better fats to add if you need to supplement.
Think pork or lamb, the fatty cuts thereof as meals, and let beef day
be a low fat one. Or buy beef heart and feed the lovely coronary fat
that comes on it.


ginny and Tomo


All stunts performed without a net!


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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. How many lbs. can you fit into a standard refrigerator?
Posted by: "temy1102" tammy.a.jp@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

I once bought close to 30 lbs. at the store all at once, and it
surprised me how small it looked and how little space it took up. How
many lbs. do you think could fit into a completely empty, standard
side-by-side freezer and fridge? I was thinking at least a
hundred.... am I crazy? I wanted to place an order at socalbarf
today, now that I have a whole fridge just for the dog's food.

Tammy & Grover

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: How many lbs. can you fit into a standard refrigerator?
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

"temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@...> wrote:

> How
> many lbs. do you think could fit into a completely empty, standard
> side-by-side freezer and fridge? I was thinking at least a
> hundred.... am I crazy?


Nah, you're not crazy. I'm positive 100# would fit, though I don't
know how much would fit in the freezer & how much would be in the
fridge (as short-term storage only). Depends largely on the style of
the freezer, the form the food was in, and whether or not you have a
space-consuming icemaker.

I've always lived in 1-bedroom apartments with smallish (smaller
than "standard," I think) fridges. They easily hold 30-40# in the
freezer, even allowing a little room for people food, but the freezer
is traditionally a lot smaller than the fridge. I routinely keep at
least 10# of defrosted meat in the fridge (Griff prefers his food to
ripen a bit, so I pull plenty out of the freezer ahead of time), and
it only takes up one bottom drawer & shelf -- not even 20% of the
available fridge space.

Go for a big order, if there's still time!

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "halojo45" hanne@hajo.us halojo45
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 5:49 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "blacty" <Ty@...> wrote:
>
> I am getting a little concerned about all these problems I keep
seeing
> in these posts. Am I going to have health problems to work out
> in the beginning or are these things just rare??
>
> Ty


Ty, my Berner boy, at 1yo was skinny, gaunt even, no energy, on 6
cups of Canidae/day. He weighed 116#, and even his vet was not
happy with his physique - too skinny, waayyyyy too skinny.
That made me research other possibilities, including homeopathy,
wholistic, organic, then raw, prey-type.
After about 6 months, I was ready to 'take the plunge'. I read
until the wee-hours to make sure I had covered every single aspect
and 'what if' ....
Holding my breath, I handed him his first RAW skinless, boneless,
chicken breast - he didn't touch it ! I then seared in in olive
oil, sprinkled with a tad of garlic powder .... voila - he ate it.
Same the next day. Then I left on the skin, but still seared. A
few days more of that, then I only sprinkled garlid powder on it,
but with the skin, AND the bones.
After I introduced another kind of protein, we never looked back -
and no more searing ....
The only thing he still won't eat is raw liver. But if its frozen,
it's a treat :-) Go figure. Chicken feet he also gets frozen as a
treat, as well as chunks of beef heart (with a bony meal).
My rescue Pyr girl was given raw as soon as she arrived - she now
sports brand-new luxurious hair (I say 'hair', because all of her
old fur is gone, and was replaced by something that only can be
described as resembling spun silk).
O yea - my boy, at 4-1/2yo, has gained pure, raw muscle, and
weighs in at 134#.
My little rescue Pyr girl, who has now been with us for a whole
year, gained over 15#, and filled out from an emaciated, bones-
sticking-out-everywhere, to a perfect, however petite, 85# loving
sweetheart.
This site has been for us, by far, the most precious and helpful
site that I have ever encountered.
I wish you all the best and hope that you will have as much success
with your beasties as most of us here do.
Hanne,
'Blaze', Fire on the Amazon, NDD, CGC, TD, TT (Bernese Mountain Dog)
'Zima', Urban's Platinum (Great Pyrenees Rescue - working on a
draft title :-)

Messages in this topic (21)
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8b. all these problems
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 7:03 pm ((PDT))

"Am I going to have health problems to work out
in the beginning or are these things just rare??

Ty"

I just started feeding my 7 yr Lab raw a few months ago. There are some things we need to overcome and this list is helping and the benefits FAR outweigh the risks. Our dog was 118 lbs. when we first got him (way overweight) and his paw pads and elbow callouses were ashy white and rough. His tongue was also an ashy color, he limped, had cataracts and yellow teeth, needless to say, bad breath. After raw feeding, all these issues (except the cataracts) have been overcome. He is now a trim 100 lbs. and everything is soft and its appropriate color, including a more luxurious coat. He no longer limps and runs like crazy after the stick outside. So I think a little adjustment on our part is well worth it. Our Nugget is such a joy in our lives that I can't even think of not doing everything I can to make him healthy and live a longer quality life.
Keep reading and researching but start your dog on raw ASAP. The people on this list know what they're talking about and there are so many websites that have good information. Most of the problems you hear about here don't have to do with raw feeding, they're usually the owner's fears (as with me, I'm somewhat of a newbie too), a pre-existing condition in the pet or some other external issue or an allergy. As people react differently to certain foods, so do dogs. My dog had allergies to some commercial dog food. He hasn't shown allergies to any raw food yet and I've feed him chicken, lamb, pork, beef kidney, liver, heart, buffalo, raw eggs and codfish.
Good luck and do what's best for your animal companion Ty.
Ivette


Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"


---------------------------------
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.

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Messages in this topic (21)
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9a. HELP! Just starting out -- they refused to eat it!!!!
Posted by: "Cynthia Brown" temecula_lady@yahoo.com temecula_lady
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 5:49 pm ((PDT))

HELP!

My tribe of 3, looked at me tonight like I had grown 6 heads. Although I threw away ALL the kibble yesterday ... and last night fed them all boneless chicken breasts, which 2 of them ate ... not a one of them ate the chicken with bones presented tonight.

My 65-lb dog got 1/2 of a whole chicken ... My 12 lb. Llasa Apsa / Maltese mix got 1/4 of the same chicken ... and my 10 lb. Shih-Tzu got the other 1/4. Only the Shih-Tzu really tried to eat it ... then she lunged at it, barking. The other two just circled their dinner, and my Llasa tried to bury hers with the towel I had placed it on.

After about 20 minutes, I picked it all up, bagged it, and put it into the refrigerator for tomorrow. Do I wait until dinner time tomorrow ... or give them another shot in the morning? I know they won't starve themselves.

Some hand holding and encouragement right now would be nice!

Did I do "it" right?????

Cynthia ... owned by Duffy, Sophie, Tinkerbell
Temecula, CA


---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

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Messages in this topic (3)
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9b. Re: HELP! Just starting out -- they refused to eat it!!!!
Posted by: "Jenny S" jenken69@shaw.ca jenken69
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 6:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi Cynthia
you did it just right they will quickly learn thats supper and they will come to look forward to it they are probly just a bit awed at the moment with the change . it did take a bit of time for my shiz tzu to realize thats all she was going to get and now looks forward to meals and eats it all up knowing she wont get anything else till next mealtime ,she knows when its mealtime and sits over by her towel and waits if im late with it..i felt bad at first feeling i was starving her but we are all better off now by it. As well teaching her Where she had to stay with her food, she liked to bring it into the liv room to gnaw on..ewwwww.. grossed out the family
Jenny S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfMJXz3AvKI (doggy napkin)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L34YjdBCu8I( Fun in the pool) way to funny..

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9c. Re: HELP! Just starting out -- they refused to eat it!!!!
Posted by: "magolin0328" maggie.taylor@artlover.com magolin0328
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 7:03 pm ((PDT))

It took Diesel a week to decide chicken was food and actually eat a
decent quantity of it. He'd eat just enough to keep himself going,
but not really full meals. I put it down just once a day. If he ate,
great, if not I just put it away for next time. It was frustrating
and kinda scary to watch him not eat much for a while, but I stuck
with it. It took a couple months before he decided he really liked
the whole raw thing. Now he chows down quite happily on most
everything. He won't really eat fish, but he'll eat anything else.
He now does his happy dance at dinner time.

You did fine. They'll get it eventually!

Maggie
Diesel, SDIT


Messages in this topic (3)
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10a. Re: Directory for Pro-Raw Food / Holistic Vets ???
Posted by: "Cynthia Brown" temecula_lady@yahoo.com temecula_lady
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 6:33 pm ((PDT))

Thank you so much.

Cynthia

pine243 <pine243@yahoo.com> wrote:
Here's a link to the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association:
http://www.holisticvetlist.com/

They have a search function on that page that allows you to search for
holistic vets whether you want one in a certain
state/country/specialty et cetera. The results of the search will give
the vets name, address, and sometimes a link to their webpage.

Laurie


---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

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11a. Feeding Dogs Livestock Afterbirth
Posted by: "corgihouse62" CorgisDo2@aol.com corgihouse62
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 6:34 pm ((PDT))

Its rare for me to ask questions, but does anyone who raises livestock
feed their dogs the afterbirth? I've been feeding raw for 7 years now.
I raise Miniature Donkeys and the dogs think it's the best treat when a
baby donkey is born and they get to eat the afterbirth.(at least thats
whay I call it) I have a Golden Retriever and 3 Pem.Corgis. They love
it! They got to have some this morning. My sister almost puked when she
saw this for the first time.(that was funny) Does anyone else do
this?

Karen and her gang

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11b. Re: Feeding Dogs Livestock Afterbirth
Posted by: "mousegirls" mousegirls@gmail.com ladysown
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 9:02 pm ((PDT))

I grew up on the farm with the dogs there doing the same thing with the
cows. Doesn't hurt 'em so I figure why not? Dad always said though...
make sure they aren't around when the animals are calving/foaling etc
because some dogs will get a bit over-exurberant and may damage the
off-spring or bother mamma too much.

Annette


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12. Re: ]Re: Help! Diarrhea! Answers to your Questions
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 6:36 pm ((PDT))

"we don't pesticide our lawn at backyard and,I did not think it was hurmful but anyone can post why she relate /suspecting the eating grass to parasite preoblem?

Because parasites may be anywhere in your lawn or on bugs your pet may eat.

Ivette

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"


---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

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13a. Costs of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Cherie Ferebee" oceanbaylabradors@yahoo.com oceanbaylabradors
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 7:02 pm ((PDT))

Okay guys,
I am really wanting to make the switch. I was just sitting here writing down how much meat (based on th 2-3% of body weight) for each of my six dogs. I would end up using 11 pounds of food daily. Thats 77 lbs per week!!! I currently spend $40 per week on kibble. During hunting seasons (as long as my dad gets a critter this year) it won't be as bad. Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions on finding meat that is cheap? Preferably no more than $50 a week. Should I fast one day a week or no? (THis would cut down by 11 pounds). I have read some info that says to fast and other info that says not to fast. Any info would be greatly apreciated!!

Thanks BUnches!
Cherie

PS- When cleaning deer, what parts are okay for my dogs to eat and what parts are not okay? I think the less we waste the better, but I don't want to endanger them! Thanks again!



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Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

13b. Re: Costs of Raw Feeding
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 8:51 pm ((PDT))

Cherie Ferebee <oceanbaylabradors@...> wrote:

> I was just sitting here writing down how much meat (based on th 2-
> 3% of body weight) for each of my six dogs. I would end up using
> 11 pounds of food daily. Thats 77 lbs per week!!!


The last time you posted you had 7 dogs -- which one do you no longer
have? I just did a quick guesstimate based on that post and came up
with 11 pounds a day, counting all 7 dogs. Point being, I think
people tend to overestimate initially how much their dogs need,
mostly -- big dogs like your labs tend toward the low end of 2-3%.
So it may well not be 11 pounds a day, when you actually get going.


> Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions on finding meat that is
> cheap? Preferably no more than $50 a week.


Giselle posts her compilation of suggestions about once a month ...
like here:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/132495

I have never had a problem averaging $1 a pound or less to feed my
dog. I do not buy in bulk, because I don't have the freezer space; I
buy almost exclusively from grocery stores. Nor have I had to pay
$200 for a dental in the 4 years since I started raw feeding. My
overall veterinary bills have plummeted in that time. Even if $1 a
pound is the best you can do -- which it shouldn't be -- please bear
in mind that you have a large number of large dogs. Their veterinary
bills -- at a minimum, for the annual or every-other-year dental
cleaning -- could be staggering from all the kibble-related problems -
- OR their food bills could be moderately more than they are now,
while their health improves significantly. Is it really a question?


> Should I fast one day a week or no? (THis would cut down by 11
> pounds).


No it won't. Fasting doesn't mean the dog eats less overall -- it
just means you feed more the other 6 days a week. Don't leave your
common sense out of the equation: if you skip a meal, don't you tend
to eat more at the next one? I certainly do.

Anyway, there's little point to just randomly fasting. If you want
to feed more naturally -- big meals infrequently -- that's a splendid
idea. (I posted on it earlier today; look there for more details.)
There is, however, little to recommend an artificial one-day-a-week
fast for the sake of fasting.


> PS- When cleaning deer, what parts are okay for my dogs to eat and
> what parts are not okay? I think the less we waste the better, but
> I don't want to endanger them!


For a second there I thought you meant the deer -- no, certainly no
worries about endangering THEM, at least not here on the east coast.
We're about overrun.

Deer should be 100% feedable. I would probably take away barenekkid
leg bones after they've been stripped, but otherwise, it's all part
of the critter, and all good eatin'.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14a. Re: raw feeding my cat
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

Jeni,

You've encouraged me in the past, so now it's my turn. I have the one
dog, and also a cat. Max the cat liked chicken, but then ate too much
and vomited it, then wouldn't touch raw for a while. I've learned
that a *little* kibble in with the raw was a good enticement. He
wasn't eating 'nothing' if he chose not to eat the rawfood, but he was
hungry, which provided the motivation to try again. Frozen ocean
smelts were a good choice, too, if I raked them a bit to expose the
flesh. Now he has gotten over his initial pickiness about all raw,
and chomps away with the best of them. Do what you can to give Lucky
some kibble sustenance, (but only barely,) and plenty of fresh, meaty
meat to remind him of who God made him to be, a carnivore! I'm still
looking myself for more sources of bone, and Shannon gave me a few
websites. Check the last few days' messages for websites.

Lynne

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jeni" <jonjeni777@...> wrote:
>
>my husband,John and our cat Lucky, who is living up to his name,
lucky we let him live here. I have been trying to switch him over to
raw with no success, I know very little about this, and was wondering
if there are any books on the subject matter that someone could refer
me too, that would help.??

> Jeni
>


Messages in this topic (7)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11874

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Can you feed bone every meal?
From: spicemother
1b. Re: Can you feed bone every meal?
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: Can you feed bone every meal?
From: Laurie Swanson

2a. Re: Starting Golden and English Setter on Elk?
From: Tina Berry

3a. Re: all these problems
From: magolin0328
3b. Re: all these problems
From: Daisy Foxworth
3c. Re: all these problems
From: Laurie Swanson
3d. Re: all these problems
From: cdhaik
3e. all these problems
From: Ann Flynn

4a. feeding frozen food (was Re: Starting Golden and English Setter on E
From: Laurie Swanson

5a. Re: Effect of raw food eating on canine cataracts
From: Ann Flynn
5b. Re: Effect of raw food eating on canine cataracts
From: Cynthia Brown

6a. Re: Probiotics ???
From: ian.atchison
6b. Re: Probiotics ??? -- Question for Ian
From: Cynthia Brown
6c. Re: Probiotics ???
From: natgs
6d. Re: Probiotics ??? -- Question for Ian
From: Sandee Lee
6e. Re: Probiotics ??? -- Question for Ian
From: Sonja

7a. Re: Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
From: Cynthia Brown
7b. Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
From: Ivette Casiano

8a. Directory for Pro-Raw Food / Holistic Vets ???
From: Cynthia Brown
8b. Re: Directory for Pro-Raw Food / Holistic Vets ???
From: pine243

9. Hello from a newbie.
From: rebecca_rogge

10a. Need Help/Jaundice dog
From: luckypuppy197136
10b. Re: Need Help/Jaundice dog
From: Sandee Lee

11. Juvenile Diabetes
From: strausshausshepherds


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Can you feed bone every meal?
Posted by: "spicemother" spicemother@yahoo.com spicemother
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:46 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS, PLEASE!


Are you able to feed bone every meal? I always give the thigh bones
at every meal (twice a day) she likes them but for the first time in a
month she threw a little piece of bone back up it scared me. Is this
normal?

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Can you feed bone every meal?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:01 pm ((PDT))

Throwing up a little piece of bone she couldn't digest really isn't a big
deal. That's how dogs get rid of offending objects.
However, if you are feeding bone at every meal without feeding extra meat,
you are quite possibly feeding too much bone. What are you feeding other
than chicken thighs?

Every meal certainly doesn't require bone. Remember, only 10% or so should
be bone.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "spicemother" <spicemother@yahoo.com>

Are you able to feed bone every meal? I always give the thigh bones
at every meal (twice a day) she likes them but for the first time in a
month she threw a little piece of bone back up it scared me. Is this
normal?

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Can you feed bone every meal?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:13 pm ((PDT))

I wouldn't worry--for whatever reason, that bit of bone probably wasn't
getting digested well and it came back up. No biggie. What size dog
do you have, how long on raw, and what exactly do you feed? You want
lots of meat, some bone, and a little organs. If you feed too much
bone, you'll probably get constipation and/or dry, hard, crumbly stools
much of the time.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "spicemother" <spicemother@...>
wrote:
>
> MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS, PLEASE!
>
>
> Are you able to feed bone every meal? I always give the thigh bones
> at every meal (twice a day) she likes them but for the first time in a
> month she threw a little piece of bone back up it scared me. Is this
> normal?
>


Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Starting Golden and English Setter on Elk?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:47 pm ((PDT))

" I have about 200lbs of Elk in the freezer that I would like to start with.
Is Elk going to be a good starter meat? Also, it is all frozen in 1lb
packages. What issue will I be up against feeding it frozen."

WOW! Lucky you!!! As mentioned, thawed would probably be more apetizing
for the first meals, but I feed frozen all the time in this hot weather.
For teeth cleaning benefits I would feed whole or half a chicken once or
twice a week - which is what I do now. Most our meat is venison, hunter
scraps, etc. and a lot of times the bones are separate from all the meat.
So I feed 100% venison with a half a chicken a couple times a week. Frozen
or thaw.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "magolin0328" maggie.taylor@artlover.com magolin0328
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:47 pm ((PDT))

In the first few weeks of switching Diesel after I got him (I switched
him to raw the day I brought him home from the shelter) he started
shedding horribly. However, the coat that was falling out was dull
and coarse and not a terribly nice coat overall. He was never bald or
anything, but he was shedding a LOT. When the new coat started coming
in it was an extremely shiny blue black that looked (and still does
look!) wonderfully healthy. His ears and eyes got a bit gunky and his
ears were a bit stinky for a couple weeks, but after that everything
was fine.

I didn't really count those things as problems though. It was like a
kind of 'detox' period. He'd previously been a shelter dog so I know
he was kibble fed...and I'm sure it was very cheap kibble at that.

He's had diarrhea a couple times, but I don't really count that as a
problem either. It happens every now and again if he eats a huge
amount of something that's too rich, but I don't really worry about it
as long as it doesn't go on for more than a day or two.

The dog shouldn't ever look starving... Some may *act* like they are
when they refuse to eat the raw food at first and skip a couple meals,
but a healthy dog won't truly starve itself. If the dog looks too
thin there is definitely something wrong.

Maggie
Diesel, SDIT

Am I going to have health problems to work out
> in the beginning or are these things just rare??
>
> Ty
>


Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:09 pm ((PDT))

>
> Have you been to Kevin's site at www.rawfeddogs.net, yet? If not,
go there
> and click on "recipes" and you'll get to see real dogs eating real
foods -
>

Casey, I just checked out his recipes page and it's a riot!
Definitely a keeper to forward to friends on the fence.

Well, my own story...great stools, good coat, everything's great...

Daisy


Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:09 pm ((PDT))

I totally agree, Ross! I expect my dog to be perfectly healthy and
want to do what I can to contribute to that. If there are any issues,
I try to figure out what adjustment might help him. My mom, on the
other hand, listens to the vet, feeds Science Diet canned and cooked
chicken exclusively, and just accepts that she'll have to "watch" her
dog's mast cell cancer and treat his chronic staph infection and
allergies. It's two different paradigms.

But people are going to have some "problems" when new to rawfeeding.
There's lots to learn. Dogs are coming from various diets, with
various health problems already. We have to locate sources, learn what
meats our dogs do well with, deal with what's available in the grocery
stores and how it's been "butchered." We're going back to nature in a
culture where there is no support for it in the mainstream.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Ross Senger" <rosssenger@...> wrote:
>
> I was at the off leash park yesterday and kept a watchful eye out for
> what other dogs were doing. Allot of dogs pooped 3-4 times in the 30
> mins I was there... runny diarrhea, others were dragging there butts
on
> the ground with obvious anal gland problems, there was a mastiff with
> big chunks of hair tore out due to some allergy of skin
irritation....
> it was amazing... and none of the owners seemed to think there was an
> issue!!


Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "cdhaik" cdhaik@yahoo.com cdhaik
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "blacty" <Ty@...> wrote:
>
> I am getting a little concerned about all these problems I keep
seeing
> in these posts.

Hi Ty

Take a look at how many mebers are on this list as opposed to how
many post that should give you an inkling of how many of us have had
success. I have not really found it neccessary to post as to how
happy i am feeding raw to my 2 yo Aussie my new 4 month old boy or
my 15 year old man. I have only been doing it for six months now and
it works for us and yes we did have a few wobblies in the beggining
because i was very excited to see how they did on variety. They have
had loose stools solid stools white stools and mucousy stools were
normal in the beggining as the tummys became used to no more kibble
after almost a lifetime of bieng on it so yes some sort of detox has
to happen. Sometimes health issues that have been suppressed and
simmering can suddenly surface so some people may have more problems
than others too.

Truly Ty raw feeding has been the best thing i have done for my
dogs. My Aussie girl is and agility dog and she is always commented
on what wonderful condition she is in, not an ounce of fat, all
healthy muscle and glosy coat. Clean shiny teeth, glossy coats, no
more anal gland congestion for my old boy. Sometimes we have a bit
of bad gas and farting due to turkey and pork but on the whole
absolutely no problems and oh yes the poop issue tells me what needs
to go in when so poop is ever changing and ever observed in our
household. Jump in there, your dogs will thank you and the mods have
good advice and help for issues you may have.

Caren y Amber y Rain y Angus

Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________

3e. all these problems
Posted by: "Ann Flynn" a.flynn@optusnet.com.au flynn_nn
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

Hello,

Just want to add that the problems my dog (13 yo lab x) has experienced
have, I believe, been the result of a lifetime of canned and kibbled junk
because I didn't know better.

She has only been on raw for a month. She had no trouble switching over, and
I have seen big improvements all round...in her being less stiff and more
mobile, eyes clear, teeth clean and breath good, smelly gas has disappeared,
her poops are no longer offensive to pick up, and there is so much less of
them, she was drinking a huge and unnatural amount of water before and now
is drinking a normal amount. Her flakey dandruff that she's had for years
has now disappeared, and her coat is looking good. She is clearly a much
happier dog thanks to now eating real dog food, and I only wish I had found
out about raw feeding long ago.

Good luck with your dogs.

Ann.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. feeding frozen food (was Re: Starting Golden and English Setter on E
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:50 pm ((PDT))

I would defrost it and feed it at room temperature, myself. They'd
naturally catch and eat their food warm, most of the time (maybe some
occasional burying and eating frozen later). And I imagine it would be
more satisfying--aroma-wise, texture-wise, etc. It just doesn't sound
pleasant to me to have to try and eat a frozen brick of meat all the
time. I wonder if it would bother their teeth (you know how we often
have sensitivity to cold?). Who knows, though? You might try it once
in awhile on a hot day to occupy them and see how they do. Or, if it's
ground, you could thaw it and stuff it into Kongs, freeze, and feed.
That's a good occupier, but wouldn't be bad on sensitive teeth.

I'm assuming they're big dogs? I hear that tiny dogs can have problems
eating cold/frozen food--brings their body temp. down too far too
quickly.

Laurie


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "blacty" <Ty@...> wrote:
> Also, it is all frozen
> in 1lb packages. What issue will I be up against feeding it frozen. I
> was thinking it would be more work for them, clean their teeth better
> and be cool treat in this hot weather. am I thinking along the right
> lines?


Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Effect of raw food eating on canine cataracts
Posted by: "Ann Flynn" a.flynn@optusnet.com.au flynn_nn
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

My 13yo lab x has been on raw for a month now. Her eyes were starting to get
a bluish cloudiness about them before the switch. Don't know if that was the
start of cataracts or not, but I suspect so. Her eyes are now so much
clearer and brighter after only a month off canned and kibbled.

Ann.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Effect of raw food eating on canine cataracts
Posted by: "Cynthia Brown" temecula_lady@yahoo.com temecula_lady
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

OUTSTANDING!!!! I look forward to providing my own praise report in the future for my 3 yr old Sophia Bella --a Llasa Apsa / Maltese mix who was diagnosed with a cataract in her right eye when she was barely 4 months old. The opthomologist had me giving her steroid eye drops to shrink the cataract -- but it got to expensive seeing this "specialist" every 2 months. I am so hoping that the raw diet will improve, if not totally eliminate this condition. She's a real sweetie! (Aren't they all!!!)

Cynthia --- owned by Duffy, Sophie, Tinkerbell
Temecula, CA

Ann Flynn <a.flynn@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Hi,

My 13yo lab x has been on raw for a month now. Her eyes were starting to get
a bluish cloudiness about them before the switch. Don't know if that was the
start of cataracts or not, but I suspect so. Her eyes are now so much
clearer and brighter after only a month off canned and kibbled.

Ann.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Probiotics ???
Posted by: "ian.atchison" ian.atchison@yahoo.com ian.atchison
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

I give my boxer a probiotic regularly. He has a very sensitive
stomach and raw feeding combined with the probiotic has done WONDERS
for him. I know in some cases probiotics actually irritate their
stomach though- we used one brand that has a disgusting side effect.
Our vet was trying to sell us meds- we tried changing his diet and
using a probiotic and happily told his vet to keep the pills. :)

best,

ian
advance, nc.


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Only when necessary...such as a dog with serious illness requiring
long term
> antibiotics, etc.

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Probiotics ??? -- Question for Ian
Posted by: "Cynthia Brown" temecula_lady@yahoo.com temecula_lady
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

Ian,

My 65 lb-er has a sensitive tummy too. The vet want him to take over-the-counter Tagamet on a daily basis + eat Eukanuba **KIBBLE** (for sensitive stomachs). I started all my dogs on raw food (chicken) yesterday. So far, so good. Would you mind sharing which probiotic you found helpful?

Thanks again.

Cynthia ... owned by Duffy, Sophie, Tinkerbell

"ian.atchison" <ian.atchison@yahoo.com> wrote:
I give my boxer a probiotic regularly. He has a very sensitive
stomach and raw feeding combined with the probiotic has done WONDERS
for him. I know in some cases probiotics actually irritate their
stomach though- we used one brand that has a disgusting side effect.
Our vet was trying to sell us meds- we tried changing his diet and
using a probiotic and happily told his vet to keep the pills. :)

best,

ian
advance, nc.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Only when necessary...such as a dog with serious illness requiring
long term
> antibiotics, etc.


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Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: Probiotics ???
Posted by: "natgs" natgs@yahoo.com natgs
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

Dear Cynthia,

Personally, I keep probiotics on hand. They work great to
improve/restore the intestinal balance. My dog is still young (almost
16mo), and many foods are new to him. Even though I introduce any new
meets in small portions, sometimes I notice that, when I do that, his
poop gets more liquidy; sometimes there's also mucous. Although his
body will figure it out on its own eventually, I don't want to risk
getting up in the middle of the night to take him out (I don't have a
backyard). So when he eats something new, I usually add some
probiotics (1/4 of teaspoon for a 75lb dog).

To clarify, when I say 'probiotics', I don't necessarily mean the
supplements you buy at a health store. Although I do use them
sometimes, I prefer to go with kefir or yogurt.

Hope this helps.

Natalya

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia Brown <temecula_lady@...>
wrote:
>
> New and learning here ...
>
> Are probiotics (ever) recommended with the raw food plan?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Cynthia ... Duffy, Sophie, Tinkerbell
> Temecula, CA
>


Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6d. Re: Probiotics ??? -- Question for Ian
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:19 pm ((PDT))

Not Ian, but I would try to get by without the probiotics for now. We
constantly hear of breeds and individual dogs who have a "sensitive stomach"
but it was merely irritation from trying to digest indigestible foods....you
know, all those cooked grains, etc! :))

If a dog absolutely requires a supplement, then go for it, but "just in
case" is never a good idea.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cynthia Brown" <temecula_lady@yahoo.com>
>
> My 65 lb-er has a sensitive tummy too. The vet want him to take
over-the-counter Tagamet on a daily basis + eat Eukanuba **KIBBLE** (for
sensitive stomachs). I started all my dogs on raw food (chicken) yesterday.
So far, so good. Would you mind sharing which probiotic you found helpful?

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6e. Re: Probiotics ??? -- Question for Ian
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 4:31 pm ((PDT))

I second Sandee's opinion....I was soooo hesitant to take Kodie off probiotics because she was very dependent on them with kibble. At the urging of everyone here, I dumped the enzymes and probiotics and our progress took a step backward...and then three steps forward. She's now off of all of those expensive supplements and is doing fairly well (she had a TON of problems to begin with, so "fairly well" is awesome for her). We're still fine tuning things, but we're much better off than we were with kibble.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
Posted by: "Cynthia Brown" temecula_lady@yahoo.com temecula_lady
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

In their book Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats, the doctors say that non-accident related cataracts are sometimes an "accompaniment of chronic disease and immune disorders". By my reasoning, if a raw diet can eliminate disease and improve overall systemic health ... and, if non-accident related cataracts are a symptom of the disease that has been eliminated -- VOILA, no more cataracts.

Do I sound like a hopeful - wishful - please God, let it be so kind of Mom? Guilty!

Day # 2 feeding raw in this household!

Cynthia ... owned by Duffy, Sophie, Tinkerbell
Temecula, CA

Cdandp2@aol.com wrote:
I'm not sure, but it seems to me that Spencer's eyes are a little less
cloudy/milky lately. He's been on raw now for several months. I'm interested in
hearing about this one too.

Carol for Spencer

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Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

"Anyone have experience with cataract improvement since feeding their dogs on the raw food plan?"

OMG, my dog has cataracts too and is a 7 yr Lab. I heard it was common in Labs but they were supposed to outgrow them. Since we didn't have him until he was 4 and he didn't start on the raw until a few months ago, we haven't seen any improvement yet.
If anyone else has any news on this, please let us know.
Ivette

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"


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Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Directory for Pro-Raw Food / Holistic Vets ???
Posted by: "Cynthia Brown" temecula_lady@yahoo.com temecula_lady
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))

Am I just dreaming, or does such a directory / website / referral network actually exist?


Cynthia ... owned by Duffy, Sophie, Tinkerbell
Temecula, CA


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Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Directory for Pro-Raw Food / Holistic Vets ???
Posted by: "pine243" pine243@yahoo.com pine243
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 4:32 pm ((PDT))

Here's a link to the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association:
http://www.holisticvetlist.com/

They have a search function on that page that allows you to search for
holistic vets whether you want one in a certain
state/country/specialty et cetera. The results of the search will give
the vets name, address, and sometimes a link to their webpage.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (2)
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9. Hello from a newbie.
Posted by: "rebecca_rogge" rebecca_rogge@yahoo.com rebecca_rogge
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi
I have just started looking into raw feeding for a couple days after
hearing about it from a friend. It makes total sense to me. My dogs
developed terrible skin allergies about two years ago, and I have
done everything to no avail. I have spent tons of money on so called
holistic dog food designed for allergies and a suppliment to sprinkle
on the food, natural healing creams, etc... One has a huge hot spot
right now and the vet put her on antibiotic pills and cream. After
two weeks it looks worse! I am very excited to see if a raw diet
will help my dogs. I am going to start them asap.

FYI: Maybe you don't have any control over this, but there are
advertisements for Purina and other "kibble" brands at the top of
this page. If you scroll over one ad, it has people saying how much
it helped their cat or dog. Don't you think that is not right since
this site reveals the problems of commercial dog food? Just thought
you'd want to look into it. It doesn't bother me, but someone else
might be like... "HMMM".

Thanks again for the weath of info on this site to help me get
started.
Rebecca

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Need Help/Jaundice dog
Posted by: "luckypuppy197136" cooniefish@aol.com luckypuppy197136
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

Hi there. I took one of my dogs to the vet for a minor issue and it
looks like she is jaundiced. she is yellow. The vet suggested
a "special diet," but I told him to hold off. Is there anything that I
should or should not be feeding to this dog? I notice that she has been
eschewing chicken and only wants red meat lately.

thanks
Samantha

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Need Help/Jaundice dog
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:32 pm ((PDT))

Samantha,

You need to know what's wrong with the dog...what did blood work show?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "luckypuppy197136" <cooniefish@aol.com>


Hi there. I took one of my dogs to the vet for a minor issue and it
looks like she is jaundiced. she is yellow. The vet suggested
a "special diet," but I told him to hold off. Is there anything that I
should or should not be feeding to this dog? I notice that she has been
eschewing chicken and only wants red meat lately.

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

11. Juvenile Diabetes
Posted by: "strausshausshepherds" strausshausshepherds@yahoo.com strausshausshepherds
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:31 pm ((PDT))

Can anyone recommend a raw diet plan for a 7 month old puppy with
Juvenile diabetes? He is currently on a commercial kibble (not sure
which one) but he will be coming here next week, and we feed raw. Any
advise is appreciated.
Jessica

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11873

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Probiotics ???
From: Cynthia Brown
1b. Re: Probiotics ???
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: all these problems
From: Laura Atkinson
2b. Re: all these problems
From: cmhausrath
2c. Re: all these problems
From: meg_helmes
2d. Re: all these problems
From: Erica Mills
2e. Re: all these problems
From: jackie
2f. Re: all these problems
From: Yasuko herron
2g. Re: all these problems
From: tottime47
2h. Re: all these problems
From: pet.wellness
2i. Re: all these problems
From: Ross Senger
2j. Re: all these problems
From: Dorianne Almann
2k. Re: all these problems
From: Denise Strother
2l. Re: all these problems
From: Casey Post

3a. Re: Breeding Bitches on Raw
From: Tina Berry
3b. Re: Breeding Bitches on Raw
From: cmhausrath
3c. Re: Breeding Bitches on Raw
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: Thanks Alison for the welcome and the feedback!
From: Sonja

5a. Re: red vs white vs ground vs whole
From: cmhausrath

6a. Re: mucose in stool
From: k9dine
6b. Re: mucose in stool
From: Yasuko herron

7a. Re: Messy Faces from Food
From: Carol

8a. Starting Golden and English Setter on Elk?
From: blacty
8b. Re: Starting Golden and English Setter on Elk?
From: pet.wellness

9a. Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
From: Cdandp2@aol.com


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Probiotics ???
Posted by: "Cynthia Brown" temecula_lady@yahoo.com temecula_lady
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 10:46 am ((PDT))

New and learning here ...

Are probiotics (ever) recommended with the raw food plan?

Thanks!

Cynthia ... Duffy, Sophie, Tinkerbell
Temecula, CA


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Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Probiotics ???
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 12:59 pm ((PDT))

Only when necessary...such as a dog with serious illness requiring long term
antibiotics, etc.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cynthia Brown" <temecula_lady@yahoo.com>
>
> Are probiotics (ever) recommended with the raw food plan?
>
> Thanks!

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 10:46 am ((PDT))

Less common than dogs fed kibble, overall.

Mucous stools are the result of intestinal irritation. Dogs shed
regularly. Anytime you switch foods, you run the chance of loose
stools. You may or may not face any of these issues when you switch,
it depends on your dogs.

Keep in mind, people post when they're having problems, for help. You
rarely have people logging in daily to say "great stools, good coat,
everything's great."

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com


Messages in this topic (14)
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2b. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:25 am ((PDT))

"blacty" <Ty@...> wrote:

> Mucose in stool-looks like starving, hair loss, diarraha! How
> common is all of this. Am I going to have health problems to work
> out in the beginning or are these things just rare??


Two things: first, people do not frequently post to say how well
things are going. They learn what to do, start doing it, and move on
with their lives, continuing to feed their dogs raw and reaping the
enormous health benefits of raw feeding.

Second, your dog is struggling with his diet -- it is negatively
affecting his health -- RIGHT NOW. You just don't see it, so you
don't have to deal with it. Imagine if you were eating nothing but
junk food -- fast food, potato chips, soda, whatever -- and washing
it down with a bottle a day of Pepto Bismol, just to regulate your
system and keep everything down. Would you be healthy? Clearly
not. Would you nonetheless have regular bathroom habits? Most
likely.

Stop feeding kibble. Throw it away -- it is nothing more than junk
food, the dog equivalent of Lucky Charms cereal. Start your dog off
gently with feeding raw, following the advice you've already found
here in reading this list. If you do have any issues, post here and
we'll help.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "meg_helmes" mhelmes@gmail.com meg_helmes
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:28 am ((PDT))

> I am getting a little concerned about all these problems I keep seeing
> in these posts. I am on the verge of converting to raw when I run out
> of the last few feeding of kibble, but at the same time am getting
> concerned about all these health problems people are having with their
> dogs. Mucose in stool-looks like starving, hair loss, diarraha! How
> common is all of this. Am I going to have health problems to work out
> in the beginning or are these things just rare??
>


As a relative newbie, I wanted to chime in here, and add to the great
comments from Sandee. It's true, you tend to hear the problems and not
the successes.

Here is my success story:
My dog started on Raw in June. I read lots of posts, and scanned the
archives. I then did a "cold turkey" (or should I say chicken?) switch
from a "high quality" kibble to chicken leg quarters (I have a 57 lb
pit mix) She did great. No poo problems. No hair loss. No diarrhea.
She will eat her liver fresh or frozen. She loves pork shoulder roasts
(so much that she wants to share them with me on the couch, but has
learned she has to keep it in the kitchen - now she just brings it to
the edge of the tile by the living room, so she can watch TV with the
family while she eats). We intro new proteins slowly, and she eats
them up. Every dog is different - I had friends who struggle to take
their dogs from one kibble to another, you just have to know your dog
(where have I heard that before?)


Be confident that you are making the best choice for your pet. Know
that this list cares about your pet, and wants them to do well with
their new diet, and will help in any way they can. Read posts. Then
read some more. Ask questions. Donate your kibble to a rescue group,
buy some nice meat, and feed your dog. They'll thank you for it.

~Meg (& Ruby)


Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "Erica Mills" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

Hi Ty,
I appreciate your concern. Obviously you care a lot about your pets' health. I think that is why you are seeing all these health concerns on the postings - we're all obsessive about our pets' health. So, we're busy scrutinizing every detail of their behavior, appearance, and poop. I'd guess that your average kibble feeding pet owner doesn't spend the hours a day observing their pet's poop the way we do - and the average kibble feeding pet owner probably doesn't think much of a sudden increase in shedding, or dry flaky skin.
I think once you start feeding raw, you're going to start noticing every detail about your pet's well-being. You'll feel all the more responsible and in control of your pet's health and you'll be as vigilant as we are about keeping track of everything and making sure you're feeding the appropriate rations of meat bones and organs. When you realize how strongly nutrition affects your pet's well being, you'll understand that you have the power to eliminate all of the little health annoyances - and you won't rest until your pet is a specimen of perfect health. :)
So, the issue isn't that raw feeding causes problems, but that people who feed raw are more in tune with the health status of their pets.
Everyone on this list firmly believes that raw is the healthiest way to feed. While we may not always have access to whole organic grass fed large game prey, and we probably don't feed our dogs with the wolf pack (where the alpha decides who eats what part of the carcass), we believe that raw meaty bones is the best alternative we have in our modern domestic world.
Anyway - start the raw feeding. You'll be amazed at how healthy your pets can be! And you'll be so glad you made the leap!
I hope that helps!
Erica

blacty <Ty@wetlandsod.com> wrote: I am getting a little concerned about all these problems I keep seeing
in these posts. I am on the verge of converting to raw when I run out
of the last few feeding of kibble, but at the same time am getting
concerned about all these health problems people are having with their
dogs. Mucose in stool-looks like starving, hair loss, diarraha! How
common is all of this. Am I going to have health problems to work out
in the beginning or are these things just rare??

Ty



_


---------------------------------
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Check out fun summer activities for kids.

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Messages in this topic (14)
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2e. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "jackie" jackiehale1@bellsouth.net jackieoscar2000
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

I am a lurker here, I dont think I have ever posted, but I switched my
3 big dogs to raw Memorial Day...they have never had a problem, they
love the food and they look great! 2 of them are littermates and weigh
60 pounds and one is at 76 pounds. The littermates get 1/4 lb gound
beef, 1 egg and some fish oil, the 76 lb gets 1/2 lb ground beef, egg
and oil each morning...at night, they all 3 get a chicken quarter..that
is it...I dont switch food, I do add liver in the morning occasionaly.
This diet was recommended to me by an agility friend who has fed this
diet for 7 years without any problems. It is easy and the dogs love it.
I was worried at first, but no longer...hope this helps!

Jackie


Messages in this topic (14)
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2f. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:46 am ((PDT))

>people post when they're having problems, for help. You rarely have people logging in daily >to say "great stools, good coat,everything's great."

HI,Laura.I agree with you. I think that rawfeeding needs more patient and thoughts for dogs compare to feeding kibble. 'cause by feeding kibble,you scoop up whatever amount required daily to doggy bowl and food is done and most likely,poo is consistent so,no need to worry about diarrhea etc. But rawfeeding,you feed what you choose and you get to see how your dog does and have to adjust accordingly.

And, whether dogs experience such problems or not really depends on how much digestion ability they have and how the food was introduced (amount,timing etc).

I been feeding raw for 12 weeks now and only time I was having trouble with diarrhea/loose poo was when I fed lamb tongue and only 1 time of tilapia which I think it was too soon to feed fish whole as entire meal.

Not all dog goes through all problems that posted here and, it really depends on the dog.

yassy


---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (14)
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2g. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:46 am ((PDT))

Hi Ty,

Lets see......my dog had cysts, a new one added every
year ....bladder infection.....infected molars......scaley, greasy
skin, small bones and low weight,otherwise on k***le he was
fine.......perfect stools though, at least I thought so.....

Since starting raw May 10, no new cysts, old ones are almost healed
up, removed the bad teeth, bladder infection is being cured, skin is
clean and no more greasy feel, fur is unbelievable, soft as a mink
coat! Blood panel work up was super for a dog his age!

After a few adjustments with his diet, stools normal/ formed and as a
bonus, he's up and ready to greet the day every morning and when it
comes to mealtime he leaps for joy, lol.........

Oh, and hubby ask, what are you feeding him, he looks like he's been
working out or the vet has him secretly on steriods, hahaha......no
more feminine looks for my little guy......
I wouldn't have believed a male dog could gain muscle/bone weight at
9 yrs old but he has..

Just remember we have over 9,000 members....can you imagine if they
were all having problems?

I think 99 % are problems with newbies as they don't take the time to
read, read, read.............

If you've noticed, it's the same problems over and over...

Will my dog have problems in the future? Probably, as I don't think
raw feeding will take care of all the damage k***le did for 9 yrs...
At least not in a few months....

Do I think I am doing the best by feeding him raw instead of
k***ble? Yes, one look at him tells me I am doing the very best
I can for him........

Is there room for improvement, you bet, always reading and always
learning.........

Carol & Charkee (muscle bound boy)


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "blacty" <Ty@...> wrote:
>
> I am getting a little concerned about all these problems I keep
seeing
> in these posts.
>
> Ty
>


Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2h. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 12:55 pm ((PDT))

Ditto everyone who has said that the minor problems you might
encounter when you switch to raw are nothing compared to the problems
you can get by feeding nothing but grain-based processed meat
byproducts, preservatives and super torched grease.

My dog started with constant diarrhea, plaque covered teeth, patchy
hair loss, drive everyone crazy itchy skin, chronic ear infections,
frequent vomiting. He was very indifferent to food.

He took to raw like ... well... a dog to a bone. Stool was the first
thing that got fixed. Poo patrol is how I know I'm feeding him the
right balance between muscle meat and meaty bones.

Fear of what can happen from "eating bones" and the peace of mind
advertising creates about balanced nutrition (false and misleading),
makes all of us paranoid and obsessive when we switch. Any dog can
experience minor issues; not every dog will.

It can be daunting at first. You could make a mistake. You correct it.

I fed Matisse nothing but chicken for a year before I learned that
chicken could be one of the causes of his allergies, so now I'm
feeding grass fed beef and it's all good.

You read. You some things. You get a little experience. Something
seems unusual. You freak, ask questions, get answers, tweak.

Your dog's energy returns. He loves mealtime. He flashes those pearly
whites. All the digestive and skin issues begin to resolve on their
own. And best of all, you don't have to sweat it the next time there's
a major pet food recall involving 30 brands of so called "premium" dog
food, cause you're in charge of the menu and you know what's in it.

It's a good life.
Pamela

www.pet-wellness-update.com
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "blacty" <Ty@...> wrote:
>
> I am getting a little concerned about all these problems I keep seeing
> in these posts. Mucose in stool-looks like starving, hair loss,
diarraha! How > common is all of this. Am I going to have health
problems to work out > in the beginning or are these things just rare??
>
> Ty
>


Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2i. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "Ross Senger" rosssenger@shaw.ca rosssenger
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 12:56 pm ((PDT))


> I am getting a little concerned about all these problems I keep seeing
> in these posts.

I was at the off leash park yesterday and kept a watchful eye out for
what other dogs were doing. Allot of dogs pooped 3-4 times in the 30
mins I was there... runny diarrhea, others were dragging there butts on
the ground with obvious anal gland problems, there was a mastiff with
big chunks of hair tore out due to some allergy of skin irritation....
it was amazing... and none of the owners seemed to think there was an
issue!!

If my dogs had any of these issues I would have been really upset and
would have been looking for solutions.

I know raw feeding isn't a cure-all, but the dogs that I know on a prey
model raw diet are much healthier and happier then the ones on kibble.

-Ross S and the two carnivorous Danes


Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2j. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "Dorianne Almann" rottienh@hotmail.com rottieruckus
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 12:56 pm ((PDT))

Have to say my experience in switching to raw appears to be fixing
problems, not creating them.

On June 26, our Rottie foster ate his first raw meal. He came into
the Rottie rescue program for which we volunteer in December, becoming
our foster in early Jan. He arrived at our home, looking like a
typical rescue--in rough shape, in other words. Poor coat, goopy
eyes, underweight, ear infections.

Over a six month timeframe, Sailor was fed three different types of
premium kibble and looked awful. When we switched foods, trying to
find a food for him, he'd look good for 2-3 weeks, then he'd seem to
crash. He never put on weight when fed kibble (and he was too thin).
His hair would start to look good, then would start looking deadful
again--sparse, brittle, there was a thinning patch running down his
back from his shoulders to his hips, I could easily pull tufts of his
hair out. Adding digestive enzymes and pancreatic enzymes did
nothing. His stools were terrible--frequent (up to six times/day that
I saw--we have a dog door, so who knows what he was doing when we were
at work), huge piles that were sometimes firm, a few seconds later
were loose cow plops.

I was dismayed and despairing--in 10 years of fostering, we've never
seen anything like Sailor's failure to thrive.

My vet, who say him once every 4-6 weeks, finally told me to put him
on raw.

The difference in the condition of Sailor's coat has been amazing and
astonishing.

He now has a coat. For several weeks now, I haven't seen the grey,
greasy film that was once part of his awful coat. Whereas before I
was embarrassed and mortified to take him in public because he simply
looked so dreadful, showing him off is now a pleasure. I've nicknamed
him "Velveteen Rabbit," a reflection of his astonishing, amazing,
astounding improvement.

I'm waiting to see if Sailor's raw diet will also help curtail his
awful eye booger situation--when he was on kibble, I had to wash his
face at least twice/day with a wet cloth because his eyes crusted up,
if it will help the chronic ear infection he has in his right ear, and
if his nonexistent energy level will improve.

I feel I have alot to learn about feeding raw, but in the case of
Sailor, I've seen astonishing improvement (at least in terms of his
coat). I think part of Sailor's issue is that he's grain intolerant.

I haven't seen anything nearly as spectacular in our two personal
Rotties. But, I really didn't expect to. They've been well cared for
their entire lives and they both are simply healthier dogs than is
Sailor.

--Dori

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "blacty" <Ty@...> wrote:
>
> I am getting a little concerned about all these problems I keep
seeing
> in these posts. I am on the verge of converting to raw when I run
out
> of the last few feeding of kibble, but at the same time am getting
> concerned about all these health problems people are having with
their
> dogs. Mucose in stool-looks like starving, hair loss, diarraha! How
> common is all of this. Am I going to have health problems to work
out
> in the beginning or are these things just rare??
>
> Ty
>


Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2k. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 12:57 pm ((PDT))

Hi Ty,
You are seeing the posts of people with problems. You don't see a lot
of posts when everything goes well. I run a dog daycare and do foster
work. I've put many fosters and helped clients switch their dogs to raw
with very few problems and most of them were operator error. More often
than not things progress fairly stress free. Denise

I am getting a little concerned about all these problems I keep seeing
in these posts. I am on the verge of converting to raw when I run out
of the last few feeding of kibble, but at the same time am getting
concerned about all these health problems people are having with their
dogs. Mucose in stool-looks like starving, hair loss, diarraha! How
common is all of this. Am I going to have health problems to work out
in the beginning or are these things just rare??


Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

2l. Re: all these problems
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))


>I am getting a little concerned about all these problems I keep seeing
> in these posts.

Ty,

I could see where it might alarm you, but keep in mind that most folks come
here for help with issues...and most of those issues are "feeder error" (too
much too soon, feeding big dogs small foods, feeding too much bone, etc.).

Take things slow and steady, listen to the experienced folks, and be willing
to let your dog be your guide and you'll be fine!

Have you been to Kevin's site at www.rawfeddogs.net, yet? If not, go there
and click on "recipes" and you'll get to see real dogs eating real foods -
sometimes it helps to see that others are really doing it, too!

Casey

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Breeding Bitches on Raw
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 10:46 am ((PDT))

"My reasoning for switching to raw was because I believed it would make my
dogs healthier. I did a great deal of reading and talking to others on raw
before switching my dogs."

You are correct and I researched as well. My 4 yo gsd had a litter at the
age of 2.5 and she did great on raw. Towards the end they crave organs and
reject bones, this is to soften their stools prior to whelping. I did
nothing different on prey mode raw diet for her, no calcium, no clean out
shot, no nothing - all natural and she did great as did the pups.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


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Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Breeding Bitches on Raw
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

Boxer Lover <boxer.love@...> wrote:

> When I replied, "I don't feed kibble, I feed raw", she explained
> how their statistics showed the majority of unsuccessful cases
> where Bitches fed raw.


I don't have any advice -- I have only a neutered male dog -- but I
want to point out an important caveat to her "statistics." When
someone says they feed Purina ProPlan, well, that can be categorized
neatly. Purina ProPlan (or whatever) probably means the exact same
formula no matter where you buy it.

Not so with feeding "raw." Sure, there are scads of people who do it
right -- and tons of people on this list successfully breed those
dogs and have done for decades -- but there are also people who do it
poorly. Who approach it half-assed, feed something that satisfies
their human conception of an appropriate diet, something based on
kibble. Who don't research, or don't apply their own brains to what
they research. Who call it "raw feeding" when they puree an enormous
batch of zucchini and spinach, mix it into a bit of ground 97% fat-
free turkey and some boiled white rice, and serve it up.

If her statistics are based on a conglomeration of all raw feeders,
those who do it in a slipshod manner for 3 months and those who do it
well for 30 years -- well, they're not such useful statistics.

Just FWIW.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Breeding Bitches on Raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:06 am ((PDT))

Stephanie,

Here are a couple of past discussions. Be certain to look at responses from
Carrie and Laura.....

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/111880
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/119004


Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: Thanks Alison for the welcome and the feedback!
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 10:47 am ((PDT))

Hmmmm...I think I need to expalin a bit more. I'm only strict when needed. :-) If the food accidentally falls off the mat, I put it back (similar to you, Laurie!). When she was first learning, she carried it off one time, and we put it back on the mat. She carried it off again, it got put away. After that, if Kodie intentionally carried it off or repositioned herself so that the meat wasn't on the mat, it got taken away. I had to take it away twice in the beginning but nevermore after that. And she certainly didn't go hungry!

Sonja

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5a. Re: red vs white vs ground vs whole
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:12 am ((PDT))

"lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@...> wrote:

> so what is the best
> ratio of chicken to beef to pork to fish for dogs?


The easy answer: whatever works for you -- for your dogs, for your
budget -- so long as you include some red meat and some edible bone.
No one sort of animal is essential, nor is any particular beasty off-
limits.

Since people like actual examples: on a reasonably tight budget, I
feed whole chickens (or turkeys, whichever's cheaper), beef heart,
and pork anything (generally shoulders and blade roasts), probably in
equal measures. Add to that a dollop here & there of beef or pork
liver and kidney, the occasional serving of lamb or rabbit or
venison, frequent eggs, and the occasional fish, and it's a
reasonable diet that I can manage both mentally and financially.

If I completely had my druthers, I'd feed grass-raised meat
exclusively -- more venison, more beef and bison, more lamb & goat --
and I'd get whole critters to feed through. Oily fish (salmon,
mackeral, sardines) would appear more often (and hey, if I'm in a
fantasy, my dog would actually like them!), and chicken and turkey
would be reduced to bit players.


> and is there any
> organ meat besides liver that is a must do?


Probably not, though some organ variety should make its way into your
dog's diet. I make sure kidney appears with some regularity; I keep
an eye out for other organs (sweetbreads, spleen, fries, brains), but
they're not frequent visitors in my kitchen.

Also, in the realm of kinda-organs, I feed heart as a meatymeat (not
relegated to the minor role of the squishy organs), and frankly don't
know what I'd do without it. Many people feel the same way about
green tripe. (Tongue is also an excellent source of meat.)


> and is ground meat
> acceptable?


"Acceptable" for what? It's not going to do much of anything for
your dog's teeth, that's for sure, and it will never provide a long-
lasting entertaining meal unless you get truly creative with how you
serve it. But I do buy it whenever I come across it cheap, because
it comes in handy: stuffing Kongs (sometimes followed by freezing,
sometimes not); providing a last-minute quick meal for the dog
(usually mixed with a couple eggs) on those rushed evenings;
providing a last-minute quick meal for myself (stirred into spaghetti
sauce) on those same rushed evenings. Anything that's equally easy
to serve to the dog or myself wins points in my house.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: mucose in stool
Posted by: "k9dine" k9dine@yahoo.com k9dine
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:27 am ((PDT))

I am not an expert, nor do I play one on TV, but I do know that the
digestive system does create mucus to lubricate the bowel. I don't
know if the difference in amounts of mucus is because of what you are
feeding specifically (more bone? less bone? larger meal? smaller
meal?), but I have noticed that sometimes my cats' stools will have
more mucus than at other times for apparently no reason. I figure it
is just the body adjusting itself to whatever it's processing.

But always keep an eye on behavior/appetite/other health issues and see
if you can find a pattern to it. It could just be a regular adjustment
for your dog's body. I take it he isn't straining or having difficulty
when he eliminates? Had he strained the time prior to the mucus-y
stool?

I'm new to raw (5 days!), so maybe long term raw feeders will have more
insight!

Amanda

>
> Hello,
>
> This past day my dog had very mucosy stool. ...
> Any ideas why this might happen and what adjustment I should make?
>
> thanks,
> stephany
>


Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: mucose in stool
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:29 am ((PDT))

>This mucosy stool came after a lamb meal.

Hi,I had same problem when I introduced Lamb to my dog. Especially she was bad on Lamb tongue. When I feed hunk of lamb,her poo get brown solid head with wet end (end about pinky finger),and she was ok with Lamb heart but tongue.. she first got yellowish gooey poo with mucous in it and, one time was watery poo.

So,with suggestion here, I reduced lamb tongue to half amount of waht I fed and,I made combo meal with chicken which she pretty good on and, brought back her poo to shapy and it was still bit softer so, I added some bone like chicken feet/rib etc to meal.
She can digest only 1oz of lamb tongue with another kind of meat she does well on like beef/pork/chicken but more than that,it makes her loose loose poo. So,after feeding combo meal,and brought her poo back to normal,I decided to try lamb sometime later and moved on.

Try combo meal and see how your dog does and if you still had problems,you maybe interested in dosing Slippery Elms to soo the the intestine.Or add more bone(not too much bone though)

In my case,after combo meal,1-2 days after, I saw no mucous in the poo,so,it will go away.

Hope it helps.

yassy


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Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Messy Faces from Food
Posted by: "Carol" onejoyfulmoose@yahoo.com onejoyfulmoose
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:29 am ((PDT))

I'm happy to hear that you like the baby wipes. I always carry a
package in the car for dog shows. Not only will they clean off mud
from feet, but mine too.
Enough said on this topic
> Carol, Moose & Joy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s
user panel and lay it on us.
>
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>


Messages in this topic (5)
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8a. Starting Golden and English Setter on Elk?
Posted by: "blacty" Ty@wetlandsod.com blacty
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:47 am ((PDT))

Guys, going to be making the switch on Saturday to Raw from Kibble. I
have about 200lbs of Elk in the freezer that I would like to start
with. Is Elk going to be a good starter meat? Also, it is all frozen
in 1lb packages. What issue will I be up against feeding it frozen. I
was thinking it would be more work for them, clean their teeth better
and be cool treat in this hot weather. am I thinking along the right
lines?
Ty

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Starting Golden and English Setter on Elk?
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 12:58 pm ((PDT))

I take it you've got ground elk in chubs, yes? Personally, if I were
switching, I'd defrost it. It doesn't smell like food when it's
frozen; my dog won't touch it. In fact, he likes it even better when
it's a little "ripe." We have meat defrosting in the fridge 24 hours
before we feed it. Also there are no teeth cleaning benefits I know of
from gnawing on hamburger popcicles. You need meaty bones for that. Or
did I misunderstand your question?
Pamela

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "blacty" <Ty@...> wrote:
>
> Guys, going to be making the switch on Saturday to Raw from Kibble. I
> have about 200lbs of Elk in the freezer that I would like to start
> with. Is Elk going to be a good starter meat? Also, it is all frozen
> in 1lb packages. What issue will I be up against feeding it frozen. I
> was thinking it would be more work for them, clean their teeth better
> and be cool treat in this hot weather. am I thinking along the right
> lines?
> Ty
>


Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Effect of Raw Food Eating on Canine Cataracts?
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 12:55 pm ((PDT))

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that Spencer's eyes are a little less
cloudy/milky lately. He's been on raw now for several months. I'm interested in
hearing about this one too.

Carol for Spencer

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