Feed Pets Raw Food: Aug 24, 2007

Friday, August 24, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11955

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: steph.sorensen
1b. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1c. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: cmhausrath
1d. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2a. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Laurie Swanson
2b. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Rhonda
2c. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Laurie Swanson
2d. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Rhonda

3a. Re: Too Much Bone?
From: Laurie Swanson

4a. Re: Kidney Failure
From: woofwoofgrrl
4b. Re: Kidney Failure
From: Casey Post

5a. Re: are dogs carnivoirs or omnivoirs
From: mandajenwalker
5b. Re: are dogs carnivoirs or omnivoirs
From: tottime47
5c. Re: are dogs carnivoirs or omnivoirs
From: mandajenwalker

6. Re: dog with panreatitis
From: Michael Moore

7a. Re: Okay rawfeeders, riddle me this...
From: cypressbunny
7b. Re: Okay rawfeeders, riddle me this...
From: Morledzep@aol.com

8a. Re: 'Hot' vs 'Cooling' foods?
From: Casey Post

9a. Re: Diabetes and Raw Feeding
From: emmiemileslouie
9b. Re: Diabetes and Raw Feeding
From: emmiemileslouie

10a. Hi, just a quick question
From: chrisstfo@aol.com
10b. Re: Hi, just a quick question
From: Sandee Lee
10c. Re: Hi, just a quick question
From: chrisstfo@aol.com
10d. Re: Hi, just a quick question
From: Sandee Lee
10e. Re: Hi, just a quick question
From: Laurie Swanson

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:12 pm ((PDT))

LOL, I figured it was a good thing. :) I know at least six hunters
who hunt in the nearby area. And one of them is a major hunter who
has connections to many other hunters.

I also know a few peeps from the local wildlife department here.
They're in charge of checking deer that are shot on state property.
I may be able to sweet talk some "doggie yummies" from them too!

Ooh this is getting exciting!! It is going to be cheap to feed the
pups, and fun to monitor their changes and track their progress on
the new diet!

-Steph

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 8/24/2007 2:38:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> steph.sorensen@... writes:
>
> Okay, let me ask you this. Is it a good thing to accept carcasses
> and what is left over from hunters' kills? I am a biologist and
work
> at an ecological firm with a bunch of guys that hunt. They hunt
deer
> and waterfowl mostly, but if I took their leftovers (carcasses,
misc.
> body parts, and entrails) and froze them until I was ready to feed,
> that is good, is it not? I figure it is the closest thing to
cutting
> them loose and letting them try to bring one down themselves!
>
>
>
> Steph..
>
> absolutely NOT, you must package all that up and send it to me so
my dogs
> can check it and approve of it before you give it to your dogs..
lol.
>
> all kidding aside,that's GREAT.. i would give my right arm to be
able to get
> that kind of meat for my dogs..
>
> Catherine R.
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:32 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/24/2007 3:12:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,
steph.sorensen@yahoo.com writes:

Ooh this is getting exciting!! It is going to be cheap to feed the
pups, and fun to monitor their changes and track their progress on
the new diet!

Steph,

now you are required to share the wealth.. pack up a 60lb box of frozen
venison and send it to me.. say.. once a month.. hehehe.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:09 pm ((PDT))

Morledzep@... wrote:

> most of the hunters i know go far away
> to hunt and don't carry back the entire carcass and i can't convince
them to
> bring it back for me.

Perhaps because they know of the problems dogs in elk can cause:
http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~solan/dogsinelk/

-- sandy & griffin (who wishes dearly that he had an elk of his very
own)

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:25 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/24/2007 6:10:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cmhausrath@yahoo.com writes:

Perhaps because they know of the problems dogs in elk can cause:
_http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~solan/dogsinelk/_

(http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~solan/dogsinelk/)

lol Sandy.. i sent that to all new raw feeders i know..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:12 pm ((PDT))

Hi again Rhonda!

Fish wouldn't be my first choice for a sick, newbie dog. Especially
mahi-mahi. It's not a wolf's/dog's most natural food and we've had a
couple bad fish experiences here. Although many dogs like it and do
well with certain types, I'd go back to whatever other raw meat she was
doing well on. Remind us what you've been doing and for how long and
let us know what you're trying to do currently (increase variety?
solve a certain problem?) and we can help.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Rhonda" <rhonda18@...> wrote:
last night gave her Mahi
> Mahi fish very rare, could bring myself to give it to her raw, I am
> going to have to ease into this, but this morning she had diarrhea!

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Rhonda" rhonda18@gmail.com rhondabrabbin
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:19 pm ((PDT))

Daphne is not on a RAW diet; I've been thinking of it and the mahi-
mahi was my first attempt as I already had it in the freezer; I guess
I don't really know where/how to begin.
Do you gradually add raw meat along with her regular diet and then
just transition over?

Rhonda
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi again Rhonda!
>
> Fish wouldn't be my first choice for a sick, newbie dog.
Especially
> mahi-mahi. It's not a wolf's/dog's most natural food and we've had
a
> couple bad fish experiences here. Although many dogs like it and
do
> well with certain types, I'd go back to whatever other raw meat she
was
> doing well on. Remind us what you've been doing and for how long
and
> let us know what you're trying to do currently (increase variety?
> solve a certain problem?) and we can help.
>
> Laurie
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Rhonda" <rhonda18@> wrote:
> last night gave her Mahi
> > Mahi fish very rare, could bring myself to give it to her raw, I
am
> > going to have to ease into this, but this morning she had
diarrhea!
>

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:32 pm ((PDT))

Rhonda,

Generally the easiest and best way is to just start--buy some
unenhanced (no injected broth or added flavors) chicken quarters or
whole chickens and feed them. There are other ways to go if you have
any issues, but chicken is cheap, available, whole prey w/bone and
meat, and is usually digested well. If you can more easily get
turkey or some other protein, you can start with that, but it's often
a good idea to start with one protein source. Once she is doing well
for a week or two, you can start gradually adding in variety.

Mixing raw w/kibble or canned could lead to digestive upset. So, get
some chicken and go for it!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Rhonda" <rhonda18@...> wrote:
>
> Daphne is not on a RAW diet; I've been thinking of it and the mahi-
> mahi was my first attempt as I already had it in the freezer; I
guess
> I don't really know where/how to begin.
> Do you gradually add raw meat along with her regular diet and then
> just transition over?
>
> Rhonda

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Rhonda" rhonda18@gmail.com rhondabrabbin
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:13 pm ((PDT))

Oh Sorry you said to remind you of what I have been feeding:I am just
going to copy and past from my other post so here it is?I feed her 3
to 4 times a day ¾ teaspoon of BioCase V, and a omega 3 capsule, a
probiotic timed released tablet, in clover enzymes for dogs
[Prebiotic: Fructooligosaccharides, Enzyme Blend: Acid Stable
Protease, Amylase, Lipase, Cellulase. No fillers, lactose, sugar,
preservatives or animal products]
mixed with plain organic yogurt, sometimes organic eggs, sometimes
broiled salmon, with the ingredients of the current dry dog food
which is Castor and Pollux and here are the copied and pasted
Ingredients: Organic Chicken, Chicken Meal, Organic Peas, Organic
Barley, Organic Brown Rice, Organic Oats, Chicken Fat preserved with
Mixed Tochopherols (form of Vitamin E), Salmon Meal, Organic Whole
Flaxseed, Natural Chicken Liver Flavor, Dicalcium Phosphate, Dried
Whole Egg, Potassium Chloride, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron
Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite,
Cobalt Proteinate, Calcium Iodate), Choline Chloride, Organic
Carrots, Organic Apples, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-
Phosphate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Calcium
Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin, Folic Acid,
Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin D3
Supplement), Yeast Culture (Sacccharomyces Cerevisiae), Dried
Enterococcus Faecum Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus
Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Niger
Fermentation Extract, Dried Trichoderma Longbrachiatum Fermentation
Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract and
Fermentation Solubles, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min) 25.00%
Crude Fat (min) 13.00%
Crude Fiber (max) 4.50%
Moisture (max) 10.00%
Calcium (min) 1.00%
Phosphorus (min) 0.90%
Omega 6 Fatty Acid* (min) 2.00%
Omega 3 Fatty Acid* (min) 0.28%
Glucosamine* (min) 150 ppm
Chondroitin Sulfate* (min) 75 ppm
*Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food
Nutrient Profile.
AAFCO Statement: 100% Complete and Balanced ORGANIX® Canine Formula
is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO
(Association of American Feed Control Officials) Dog Food Nutrient
Profiles for maintenance.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi again Rhonda!
>
> Fish wouldn't be my first choice for a sick, newbie dog.
Especially
> mahi-mahi. It's not a wolf's/dog's most natural food and we've had
a
> couple bad fish experiences here. Although many dogs like it and
do
> well with certain types, I'd go back to whatever other raw meat she
was
> doing well on. Remind us what you've been doing and for how long
and
> let us know what you're trying to do currently (increase variety?
> solve a certain problem?) and we can help.
>
> Laurie
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Rhonda" <rhonda18@> wrote:
> last night gave her Mahi
> > Mahi fish very rare, could bring myself to give it to her raw, I
am
> > going to have to ease into this, but this morning she had
diarrhea!
>

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Too Much Bone?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:12 pm ((PDT))

Hi Susan,

My dog can't handle too much boneless, either. Even if I throw in a
chicken foot to a boneless meal, it seems to keep things more solid.
I wonder if maybe because most dogs aren't getting whole prey with
fur and all that other stuff, that maybe more bone kind of
substitutes for that a bit sometimes? I would just watch for rock
hard stools and constipation, but if they need a little bone every
day and they are healthy and happy, it sounds fine.

Is it possible the parents fed them other things that could've caused
a problem, though, too (not that it's worth asking about or making
waves--just something to consider)? What about stress? My dog had
urgent, liquidy stools awhile ago after we had to leave him home
alone more for a couple days and we were moving lots of stuff around
the house/bringing in boxes because we were moving our art studio.

If you need to travel again and have easy peasy meals, you might look
for a source of ground meat w/bone (some butchers, upscale pet
stores, through local buying groups, or online). Those often have a
lot of bone, though, so you'd probably want to alternate w/boneless.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "brake4breyers832"
<pebbles_diehl@...> wrote:
so only send the
> dogs with boneless meat. I was ok with that, but I figured they
would
> have loose stools. It is now Friday and they *still* have
diarrhea.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Kidney Failure
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:13 pm ((PDT))

High protein doesn't damage the kidneys - even sick kidneys. However if
the kidneys are comprimised, they won't filter out the by-products of
protein digestion and the BUN values will rise. High BUN values will
make a dog feel ill. Foods that are high in protein are also generally
high in phosphorus. Sick kidneys also don't remove phosphourus
effectively. High phosphorus will start a vicious cycle with the
parathyroid gland leading to hyperparathyroidism.

Below is a great link dealing with kidney disease in dogs.
http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html

also the k9kidneydiet yahoo group is very helpful. I highly recommend
joining.

Easily digestable proteins (raw meat and egg whites) are definitely on
the menu, however, depending on your dogs blood and urine values, you
may need to feed a partial raw diet and supplement calories from a lower
phosphorus source. You may also need to supplement with a phosphorus
binder. The k**ble that you were feeding before had all of that in it
already. Regardless, easily digestable raw protein in a homemade diet
will be better and you can control it more precisely than crap in a bag.
You just need to make sure you have all of your kidney dog's bases
covered.

Christine

Mary wrote:
>
>
> "Your vet needs to bring himself up to date...."protein is not the issue
> with damaged kidneys."
>
> High protein is very damaging to kidneys in failure. I was a dialysis
> tech in another life and high protein was the enemy of my patients. I
> live with an Internist who just verified it for me before I wrote this
> to the group.
>
> I am talking about unhealthy kidneys not normal kidneys. Below the post
> speaks to damaged kidneys and again high protein is very dangerous in
> this condition. Check out kidney disease on the web.
>
> Mary Smallwood

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Kidney Failure
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

> High protein is very damaging to kidneys in failure. I was a dialysis
> tech in another life and high protein was the enemy of my patients. I
> live with an Internist who just verified it for me before I wrote this to
> the group.

Mary,

Did you read any of Sandee's links?

Reducing protein for the carnivore in all but the final stages of renal
failure actually hastens the animal's decline. Protein isn't the enemy,
here. Not even for the renal compromised.

Casey

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: are dogs carnivoirs or omnivoirs
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:31 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for the link, Sandee,
I really appreciate it. I read through it completely. I agree with
the raw food way of feeding or I for sure wouldn't be going to all
this trouble. I have to wait for Louie's blood test to come in to
find out if he does in fact have hypothyroidism. I want to see how he
will do on the raw diet in the meantime to see if it will help. I
believe in my mind that kibble isn't "natural" for dogs.....it is
processed! Just like a lot of the processed foods we see nowadays for
humans. None of those are good for us!
Anyways, thanks again. I really appreciate your input!
Mandy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mandy,
>
> You need to read the rawfeeding myths where you will find not someone's
> beliefs but the facts! Your vet should know that classification is
based on
> anatomy and physiology which proves that dogs are carnivores. And
it is
> no secret what the appropriate diet for a carnivore consists
of...not fruits
> and veggies!! :)
>
> http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "mandajenwalker" <walker1031@...>
>
>
> I went to the vet today with my dog, Louie's, skin problem (we think
> he has hypothyroidism). My vet told me that in fact dogs are
> omnivoirs and they do need fruits and vegetables to live. She told me
> to steer clear of the raw diet at all costs!
> I know everyone has there beliefs....I just don't want him to end up
> with health problems down the road. I also know that she is being fed
> information through her dog food distributors....
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: are dogs carnivoirs or omnivoirs
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:38 pm ((PDT))

Hi Mandy,

I would be scared to put my precious
dogs under the care of a vet who didn't know the basics
of dogs, that they are total carnivores........I would ask myself
if they don't know something that basic, what else don't they know?
Being as honest and fair as I can be.........

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mandajenwalker" <walker1031@...>
wrote:
My vet told me that in fact dogs are
omnivoirs and they do need fruits and vegetables to live.
She told me to steer clear of the raw diet at all costs!

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: are dogs carnivoirs or omnivoirs
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:38 pm ((PDT))

I agree, Carol! And I appreciate your honesty! I have had my doubts
about her in the past and have often thought of changing....
As far as the diet, I want to first observe the way my dogs react to
the raw diet and use my own judgment from there. I am a skeptic until
I see results for myself.
Thank You again,
Mandy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mandy,
>
> I would be scared to put my precious
> dogs under the care of a vet who didn't know the basics
> of dogs, that they are total carnivores........I would ask myself
> if they don't know something that basic, what else don't they know?
> Being as honest and fair as I can be.........
>
> Carol, Charkee & Moli
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mandajenwalker" <walker1031@>
> wrote:
> My vet told me that in fact dogs are
> omnivoirs and they do need fruits and vegetables to live.
> She told me to steer clear of the raw diet at all costs!
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6. Re: dog with panreatitis
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:38 pm ((PDT))

>>Someone on the list referred me to your post as my 6 month old
Greyhound puppy, Daphne, has EPI and type 1, insulin dependant,
diabetes. I want to transition over to a RAW diet, but am not sure
how to go about it I have been investigating the raw diet for about 4
days now. I am worried as I just got her to a point where she has
really good poops. Last night I gave her some semi raw [I broiled it
for 5 min] Mahi Mahi fish and she had diarrhea this morning so now I
am afraid to give her anything else raw. I did go to Petco today and
bought http://www.naturalb alanceinc. com/dogformulas/ RAW.html which is
raw but I know not the true RAW diet but it is a start.<<

Hi, Rhonda, I'm not Karen, but my GSD, Holly, was diagnosed with EPI some years ago. She is a rescue, and had screaming, uncontrollable diarrhea for a full year (daily!) after we got her. She's the dog who lead me to rawfeeding. First, raw is, IMO, the way to go for an EPI dog. Holly gets no digestive enzymes, nothing except a little extra pancreas, and she is thriving!!
You may have created the diarrhea (is it truly diarrhea -- uncontrollable -- or just really loose stools?) with the MahiMahi -- and searing fish for 5 mins. is not semi-raw. Save your money -- quit buying that stuff at Petco; your doggy food dollars will go much further and your dog will probably do much better on a true raw diet. It's not hard -- buy some whole chicken -- whack them in half, feed half to your puppy. Repeat the next day.
It took about 4 days or so for Holly's stool to become "better," but your results may vary. You need to be a little patient, read some posts on starting on raw, and give it an educated effort for a minimum of six weeks. This *is* the best, most natural diet for all dogs. Period.
I admit to no knowledge of diabetes in dogs, but I'm sure there are knowledgeable folks on the list who can give you specific advice about that as well.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Okay rawfeeders, riddle me this...
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:42 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "steph.sorensen"
<steph.sorensen@...> wrote:
>
> from a
> biological standpoint, which is what you guys are supporting with
> your canine and feline diets, dogs would bring down a large animal
as
> a pack, and it may take them a week to get through the whole
thing.

*** It wouldn't take a week. A few days at most, usually less.
Wolves eat as much as they can, rest, and then eat some more if
there is more. How much of the carcass gets left behind for other
scavengers depends on a variety of factors such as pack size and
snow depth.

> However, a) there isn't a freezer to stick it back into, and b) if
> you already thawed out the meat once to give it to them, wouldn't
it
> be unwise to refreeze and thaw repeatedly? It makes meat go bad.

*** It would be unwise to do this repeatedly, yes. Two or three
times, though, no. Repeated freezing doesn't make meat go bad--what
happens while thawed is what makes it go bad.

> It is a tradeoff between what is best and what works out the
best.
> Or is all of this only a matter of personal preference?

*** Yes to all of the above. I think there are few people who leave
giant chunks of carcass out for days at a time. If I left meat out,
I would be overrun with rats in a short time. Most folks cut into
portions and refridgerate the remainder if the dog doesn't finish
it. If, say, I had a goat quarter (which I do), I would let the dog
work on it until satisfied, and then put the rest in the fridge for
the next meal. It might get fed, refridgerated, fed again,
refridgerated again, and then fed one more time. Even so, the amount
of time the item spends at room temp is well below the danger point
even for humans, nevermind dogs, who are usually delighted to eat
week-old road kill.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Okay rawfeeders, riddle me this...
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:24 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/24/2007 2:54:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
steph.sorensen@yahoo.com writes:

However, a) there isn't a freezer to stick it back into, and b) if
you already thawed out the meat once to give it to them, wouldn't it
be unwise to refreeze and thaw repeatedly? It makes meat go bad.

Steph,

Wolves hunt in packs and when they bring down a large prey animal they gorge
themselves until they can't eat anymore.. then they guard the kill and sleep
and eat more..

they do this until the kill is gone, or stolen from them by a stronger
predator. Doesn't matter if the meat starts smelling bad, that is a human thing,
dogs LOVE stinky meat. Sometimes i think they like it stinky better than they
like the fresh stuff.

And freezing/thawing and refreezing meat doesn't make it go bad, it changes
the taste and texture of the meat and dries it out so humans don't wanna eat it
anymore.. the dogs don't care.

how you deal with huge hunks o meat or large body parts is personal
preference. I choose to whack meal sized hunks of meat off of whole legs until all
that is left is the meat on the bone and then i hand the bone with the meat on it
to one of the dogs that has the luxury of time and space to deal with it.
Like my Otis in his 18' x 6' kennel. Or one of the dogs that eats in their
crates..

the dogs that eat in the open, or in rooms that folks move around in don't
often get to work on huge hunks of meat with a bone in it, but they are well
compensated. They get the choicer pieces of meat, and get hunky but easier to
chew food so we don't have to bring the whole house to a stand still to wait for
a collie to finish an emu leg.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: 'Hot' vs 'Cooling' foods?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:44 pm ((PDT))

> Have any of you heard of certain types of raw meats being classified as
> 'hot' and others as 'cooling'. My agility instructor mentioned this and
> I'm curious to hear of any of you have. She said chicken and beef, for
> instance, are considered hot meats, whereas salmon would be a cooling
> food.

Pam,

This comes from Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) and may be of value to
humans, but I and the others I know of who have tried it for our dogs have
not been able to see a benefit from hot/cold food choices for our animals.

Better, imo, to gauge your dog as an individual and see which foods work
best for him as an individual...

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Diabetes and Raw Feeding
Posted by: "emmiemileslouie" lklora@sbcglobal.net emmiemileslouie
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:05 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "doguenanny" <Dixie4911@...> wrote:
>
> A friend of mine's lab was recently diagnosed with diabetes (she said
> it's the insulin dependent type). I have always talked to her about
> feeding raw, but she never thought about switching. Until now. I
told
> her it would be the best thing she could do for her dog, especially
> now. I told her I'd try to find some information to send her, but I
> haven't found anything yet that talks about how a raw diet can be
> beneficial to dogs with diabetes. She's the type of person who will
> want to see specifics (or something close to specifics)......can
anyone
> out there point me in the right direction, or does anyone out there
> have a dog with diabetes on raw?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Frankie

> Hi Frankie,
I started feeding raw because of a diabetic cat. I could never get
his insulin levels or blood sugar levels regulated while
on "prescription diabetic canned and kibble from the vet. Found a
website called yourdiabeticcat.com that convinced me to make the
switch. My cat has never been better since the change and now I have
all of my other pets on raw. It only makes sense to me considering how
carbohydrates directly effect glucose levels, yet even the prescription
diabetic foods have as much as a 45% carb content in them...duh!! My
thought is get rid of all the unecessary corn, wheat, oats, veggies,
fillers, etc. that dogs do not need and you may be surprised at the
improvement of the animals condition regarding the diabetes. I can go
into more detail with my specific case off group if you or friend would
like. Just e-mail me.

Linda

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Diabetes and Raw Feeding
Posted by: "emmiemileslouie" lklora@sbcglobal.net emmiemileslouie
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:14 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "doguenanny" <Dixie4911@...> wrote:
>
> A friend of mine's lab was recently diagnosed with diabetes (she
said
> it's the insulin dependent type). I have always talked to her
about
> feeding raw, but she never thought about switching. Until now. I
told
> her it would be the best thing she could do for her dog, especially
> now. I told her I'd try to find some information to send her, but
I
> haven't found anything yet that talks about how a raw diet can be
> beneficial to dogs with diabetes. She's the type of person who
will
> want to see specifics (or something close to specifics)......can
anyone
> out there point me in the right direction, or does anyone out there
> have a dog with diabetes on raw?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Frankie

Once again Frankie,

I found that one of the yahoo groups has a raw diabetic dog group. I
am not a member but it may be worth your friends time to check it
out.
Hope this helps.

Linda

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Hi, just a quick question
Posted by: "chrisstfo@aol.com" chrisstfo@aol.com chrisstfo
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:39 pm ((PDT))

Hi, how are you? I just started the raw diet. Last night I fed my dog
ground beef with vegetables. I know you guys do not like the vegetables but the
site I have been reading said it was good. My question is did I do something
bad by giving her ground beef. I asked for the best they had. They where a
high end grocery store..... How do I know if the animal parts I get are hormone
free?... Is there anywhere online to order this stuff.... Thank You, Chris

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Hi, just a quick question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi Chris,

Actually I really like vegetables...a lot!! :))

Seriously, it doesn't matter who says they are good, they are not part of a
carnivore's diet. As treats they might be ok, but since dogs do not have
the system to digest and receive nutrition from plant matter, they shouldn't
take up any appreciable amount in the diet.

Ground beef is fine occasionally, but best to stick with whole foods or nice
large portions. Just beginning, I think you need to focus on something
less fatty, not ground and include bone.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <chrisstfo@aol.com>

> Hi, how are you? I just started the raw diet. Last night I fed my dog
> ground beef with vegetables. I know you guys do not like the vegetables
but the
> site I have been reading said it was good. My question is did I do
something
> bad by giving her ground beef.

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

10c. Re: Hi, just a quick question
Posted by: "chrisstfo@aol.com" chrisstfo@aol.com chrisstfo
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:06 pm ((PDT))

Thank You for the fast reply, So I can just go to the store and pick out the
biggest steak for now with the bone and feed that. I need to get something
else for tonight because all I have is the ground beef with veggies. Thanks,
Chris

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

10d. Re: Hi, just a quick question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:12 pm ((PDT))

No, not quite! :) Most beef bones aren't going to be edible. You need
something like a chicken!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <chrisstfo@aol.com>

> Thank You for the fast reply, So I can just go to the store and pick out
the
> biggest steak for now with the bone and feed that. I need to get
something
> else for tonight because all I have is the ground beef with veggies.
Thanks,

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

10e. Re: Hi, just a quick question
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:33 pm ((PDT))

If you don't want to go to the store tonight, your dog will be fine
with more ground beef tonight. But you will want to get something
w/bone soon (not beef--the bones are too dense and can wreck teeth,
and t-bones, etc. can be choking hazards). Chickens are cheap, easy,
and available (whole or quarters are good), but if you want you can
use turkey parts, pork, lamb, etc. You might want to stick with one
protein source for a week or so til you know things are good.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, chrisstfo@... wrote:
>
> Thank You for the fast reply, So I can just go to the store and
pick out the
> biggest steak for now with the bone and feed that. I need to get
something
> else for tonight because all I have is the ground beef with
veggies. Thanks,
> Chris
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-
new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11954

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: My questions about feeding raw
From: Tina Berry
1b. Re: My questions about feeding raw
From: Andrea

2a. Re: Not good teeth
From: carnesbill
2b. Re: Not good teeth
From: cmhausrath

3a. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: Sandee Lee
3b. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: steph.sorensen
3c. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: Morledzep@aol.com
3d. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: Morledzep@aol.com

4a. Re: Skin allergy
From: Sandee Lee
4b. Re: Skin allergy
From: steph.sorensen
4c. Re: Skin allergy
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: Kidney Failure
From: Sandee Lee
5b. Re: Kidney Failure
From: Mary
5c. Re: Kidney Failure
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
From: coriowen

7. 'Hot' vs 'Cooling' foods?
From: Pam Vojtas

8a. are dogs carnivoirs or omnivoirs
From: mandajenwalker
8b. Re: are dogs carnivoirs or omnivoirs
From: Sandee Lee

9. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Melissa Wood

10a. Re: Words of caution
From: nwohiopma

11a. Re: Hey y'all!
From: delcaste

12a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litte
From: Tina Berry

13a. Re: Dog with pancreatitis
From: Rhonda

14.1. Re: turkey legs
From: nachoburrito

15. Okay rawfeeders, riddle me this...
From: steph.sorensen

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: My questions about feeding raw
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:53 pm ((PDT))

"I hear about the Prey Model diet, and it is really confusing me. Feed organ
meats one day, bones another.....I am lost. Is this the way to go, or is it
best to feed just a variety of meats and parts with no sets schedule"

Hi Erin, welcome to the list and congrats for switching your fur babies to
raw. I can't comment on cats, but on dogs, prey model diet is nothing more
than 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organs anytime you want. It doesn't have to be
per meal or per week, but over time.

I choose to feed my bunch mostly venison, but I'm in Montana where it is
readily avialable atleast for 9 months out of the year when I can stock up.
When I am out of venison, my next choice is turkey, then whatever is on sale
for the cheapest - usually chicken, but whatever works. It's all 1000%
better then kibble.

I used to feed at the same time every night but then discovered (thank you
Chris O) that if you do this, and then don't feed them at that time, they
may throw up yellow bile because their stomachs get accustomed to eating at
the same time every day. So now I mix it up, am, pm, mid day, whatever and
have had no issues whatsoever.

So good luck, someone else will answer about the cats.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: My questions about feeding raw
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:02 pm ((PDT))

Erin, you are welcome to post from the moment you join the group! If
you want some answers without waiting you can do a search in the
archives since pretty much every question you can think of has been
asked in the past. Still, we're always available to answer
individual questions.

> my vet wants to do some major diagnostic tests. I believe that
> before I put her through all that, I would like to try RAW in case
> she is having problems with allergies. Rufus (our Lab/Doberman
> mix) is coming along for the ride.

Fantastic! Hopefully we can get her problems squared away quickly so
you don't have to waste a bunch of money on tests.

> 1. How much to feed? Rufus is 65 lbs and Fiona is 37.

Generally, you can start feeding about 2-3% of the ideal adult weight
of the animal. If the dogs are adults have a good weight now, you
can start with 1 to 1.5lbs of food for Rufus every day and 3/4 to 1
lb a day for Fiona.

> Diego is a kitten around 5 months and Carmen is about a year old

I honestly couldn't tell you how much I feed my cats. I give them a
selection of foods and they eat what they will. Of course, when I
say "I" I mean my bf, because apparently the cats have decided that
if food comes from me it must be poisoned <sigh>. I advise letting
the cats eat as they will for now and once they are on board think
about slowly reducing food if necessary.

> 2. I hear about the Prey Model diet, and it is really confusing
> me. Feed organ meats one day, bones another.....I am lost. Is
> this the way to go

Oh, heavans, that's too complicated. Prey model feeding is extremely
forgiving, the idea is to balance over time. The ideal diet would be
whole prey animals hide, head, guts and all. Since most of us can't
do that, we do our best with what we can find. You want to feed what
would end up having around the same stuff as an average prey animal.
That boils down to mostly meat, some bone, and a little organ. (If
you need numbers you can think 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ).

There are no hard and fast rules of what has to be fed from day to
day. For example, this week my pups have been working their way
through a pork shoulder each. They have had some chicken feet here
and there, and this weekend they'll probably get a glob of liver or
kidney if I remember. Next week they might have duck, or chicken, or
goat. The puppy eats every day, but my 1.5 yr old GSP mix eats a
very big meal every other day.

> is it best to feed just a variety of meats and parts with no sets
> schedule.

Right. At first you should stick with one kind of meat at a time.
You could buy some whole chickens and cut them up into meal sized
pieces and feed them for a week or two. After a time their systems
will be digesting the food well with no loose stools or discomfort.
At that point you can choose another meat to add. You should slowly
add variety, because too much too soon can result in cannon butt.

> 3. Cats. Mine aren't interested in bones. Can I feed them
> groundand small diced meats instead?

My cats were a PITA to switch to raw. It took about a year and a
half before I could get them to eat raw without bribe foods. There
is a sister list called rawcat that is dedicated specifically to the
many hurdles our felines can throw at us.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat

> I know it is extremely bad for overweight cats to go without food
> for more than 24 hours, and she won't eat the whole meat.

You might need to take baby steps with your big girl. Feed her
whatever she will accept and work on getting her to whole raw. If
you join rawcat there are lots and lots of people who have great tips
that they learned from their difficult cats. If you want a good
laugh, search rawcat's archives for posts about "The Ted." He makes
my cats seem like pushovers.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:53 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> And, in 4+ years, I've seen it numerous times. Most
> especially when they
> get something like a slab o' beef ribs, where there's lots
> of lovely nibling
> to be done to get the last bits of connective tissue off before
> I take them
> away.

A quote from my previous post ... "He
uses the incisors to NIBBLE SHREDS OF MEAT FROM BONES and to groom
himself and other dogs."

> Just 'cause you ain't seen it doesn't mean it don't happen.

To me, nibbling isn't eating, its playing. I guess it's just the
difference in terms. I guess I should have said I have never seen a
dog do any SERIOUS eating with front teeth. :)

When my dogs eat pork ribs they eat the bone/meat at the same time.
They don't nibble the meat off then eat the bone. I don't feed beef
ribs. I've never seen a reason to ... not much meat, real hard
bone. So I guess what you say is true if you consider nibbling to be
eating. :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "cmhausrath" cmhausrath@yahoo.com cmhausrath
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:45 pm ((PDT))

"macattack0201" <bmcneil@...> wrote:

> My 6yo Boston Terrier--when we "found each other" she had no front
> teeth at all;

My Griffin has only one stub of a tooth on the bottom in front; he has
about half of his upper front teeth (and all his canines), but just
that one little nubby thing on the bottom. Never has mattered at all
to him -- he's less adept at eating some things, perhaps, but he does
just fine, even with rib slabs where he really uses his front teeth:
http://rawfeddogs.net/RecipePhoto/9/4

I wouldn't worry a bit about the missing teeth! OTOH, if the dirty
teeth seem to cause any pain or don't get scraped clean pretty quickly
with raw feeding, you may need to do a dental just to get your dog back
to square one.

-- sandy & griffin

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:46 pm ((PDT))

Hi Steph,

You basically want to stay away from anything labeled bones! They are tooth
wearers and breakers! Stick to edible bones covered with tons of meat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "steph.sorensen" <steph.sorensen@yahoo.com>

Even bones they sell at pet stores? That is what I give them. They
may be beef bones, but the package sometimes says ham bones. That
is what I give them. I would never give them bones I've cooked.
That much I do know. :)

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:37 pm ((PDT))

Sandee,

Okay, let me ask you this. Is it a good thing to accept carcasses
and what is left over from hunters' kills? I am a biologist and work
at an ecological firm with a bunch of guys that hunt. They hunt deer
and waterfowl mostly, but if I took their leftovers (carcasses, misc.
body parts, and entrails) and froze them until I was ready to feed,
that is good, is it not? I figure it is the closest thing to cutting
them loose and letting them try to bring one down themselves!

-Steph

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Steph,
>
> You basically want to stay away from anything labeled bones! They
are tooth
> wearers and breakers! Stick to edible bones covered with tons of
meat.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "steph.sorensen" <steph.sorensen@...>
>
> Even bones they sell at pet stores? That is what I give them. They
> may be beef bones, but the package sometimes says ham bones. That
> is what I give them. I would never give them bones I've cooked.
> That much I do know. :)
>

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:44 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/24/2007 12:53:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
steph.sorensen@yahoo.com writes:

Steph,

i seriously don't know what they do to those bones in the dog food stores to
preserve them before they sell them to unsuspecting dog owners..

they can and DO break and wear down teeth. The bones your dogs need are the
bones that come naturally covered in nice hunky raw meat.. like pork picnic
roasts and slabs of ribs, and whole or half chickens..

think MEAT with a bone, rather than Bone with some meat..

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:47 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/24/2007 2:38:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
steph.sorensen@yahoo.com writes:

Steph..

absolutely NOT, you must package all that up and send it to me so my dogs
can check it and approve of it before you give it to your dogs.. lol.

all kidding aside,that's GREAT.. i would give my right arm to be able to get
that kind of meat for my dogs.. we're stuck with just what we can get through
our buying group and grocery stores.. most of the hunters i know go far away
to hunt and don't carry back the entire carcass and i can't convince them to
bring it back for me.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Skin allergy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:50 pm ((PDT))

Steph,

Most often dogs are not allergic to protein in the raw form. Cooked and
processed is a totally different thing...and most often the allergy isn't to
the protein but rather all of the other ingredients found in kibbles.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "steph.sorensen" <steph.sorensen@yahoo.com>
I actually talked to a co-worker that has a rescue that is allergic
to most proteins and actually has to eat a special food where the
protein has been modified genetically so her body doesn't recognize
it.

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Skin allergy
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:34 pm ((PDT))

Sandee,

Really? Wow, that makes sense too, considering that is what her dogs
have always been eating.

You know, if that processed crap isn't good for us, what makes people
think that it is just how it is supposed to be with our pets?

-Steph

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Steph,
>
> Most often dogs are not allergic to protein in the raw form.
Cooked and
> processed is a totally different thing...and most often the allergy
isn't to
> the protein but rather all of the other ingredients found in
kibbles.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "steph.sorensen" <steph.sorensen@...>
> I actually talked to a co-worker that has a rescue that is allergic
> to most proteins and actually has to eat a special food where the
> protein has been modified genetically so her body doesn't recognize
> it.
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Skin allergy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:43 pm ((PDT))

That's a very good question, Steph!! :)) Propaganda maybe????

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "steph.sorensen" <steph.sorensen@yahoo.com>

You know, if that processed crap isn't good for us, what makes people
think that it is just how it is supposed to be with our pets?

-Steph

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Kidney Failure
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carol,

Actually feeding high carbohydrate, low protein, processed food is quite
damaging to the kidneys and other organs. Your vet needs to bring himself
up to date....protein is not the issue with damaged kidneys. Depending on
the severity (do you have lab results?) you may need to begin watching
phosphorus intake, but the high quality, easily digestible, high moisture
content of raw is perfect for maintaining kidney health.

We have discussed this issue frequently on the list so do an archive search.
Here is one message with the current info regarding the protein/kidney
issue.....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/114796

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "my3jcs" <my3jcs@yahoo.com>

I'm hoping for some help with one of my dogs
who has kidney problems. Over a year ago, we were told by our vet,
that our dog had failing kidneys and they put him on the Science KD
dog food. He is a 9 yr. old boxer/sharpei. Can anyone share with me
how best to feed him raw? My vet warned me about feeding him too much
protein with the raw food so I'm worried about making my dog worse.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Kidney Failure
Posted by: "Mary" halle4@comcast.net hallebest
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:40 pm ((PDT))

"Your vet needs to bring himself up to date...."protein is not the issue with damaged kidneys."

High protein is very damaging to kidneys in failure. I was a dialysis tech in another life and high protein was the enemy of my patients. I live with an Internist who just verified it for me before I wrote this to the group.

I am talking about unhealthy kidneys not normal kidneys. Below the post speaks to damaged kidneys and again high protein is very dangerous in this condition. Check out kidney disease on the web.

Mary Smallwood

----- Original Message -----
From: Sandee Lee
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Kidney Failure

Hi Carol,

We have discussed this issue frequently on the list so do an archive search.
Here is one message with the current info regarding the protein/kidney
issue.....

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/114796

Sandee & the Dane Gang

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: Kidney Failure
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:56 pm ((PDT))

The current studies have shown that not to be true. Did you read the info
in the link I posted?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Mary" <halle4@comcast.net>
>
> High protein is very damaging to kidneys in failure. I was a dialysis
tech in another life and high protein was the enemy of my patients. I live
with an Internist who just verified it for me before I wrote this to the
group.
>
> I am talking about unhealthy kidneys not normal kidneys. Below the post
speaks to damaged kidneys and again high protein is very dangerous in this
condition. Check out kidney disease on the web.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: New to raw...diarrhea...but not giving up! =)
Posted by: "coriowen" COwen98@aol.com coriowen
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:32 pm ((PDT))

Joe,
This is exactly what I feel like about the little dogs (18lbs). I am
thinking, "Are they going to have a good poop this time?" LOL The
big girls, they have adjusted quite well so no worries there. My 2
year old Dachshund woke me up 3 times last night needing to go out
and tried to poop but nothing came out. =( Now it's in the
constipation stage! I have been gone all day so my husband has been
here with them so I think he said they are doing better today. I
have been running around doing too much to get to watch closely until
later this evening! SHEESH! It's been busy around here. I am going
to let them out right now...;)
Cori

> > Cori,
> >
> > You didn't do anything wrong by switching quickly. Sounds like
they
> are
> > doing fine. Soft stools are really no big deal! :)
> >
> I agree. Being new to RAW I was on the POOP watch everyday
thinking..
> To much bone? to much meat? to much organ? Its kind of funny how
into
> the poop I was ( and still am just not quite as anymore).
>
> The main thing was to much organ meats I was finding out.
>
> I give organ meat in small amounts about once every 3 days. i ahve
a
> 15lb dog so its around a thumbnail or 2 thumnail size portions with
her
> meal.
>
> Joe stokes, ohio
>

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7. 'Hot' vs 'Cooling' foods?
Posted by: "Pam Vojtas" pam.vojtas@datacore.com pvojtas
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:32 pm ((PDT))

Have any of you heard of certain types of raw meats being classified as
'hot' and others as 'cooling'. My agility instructor mentioned this and
I'm curious to hear of any of you have. She said chicken and beef, for
instance, are considered hot meats, whereas salmon would be a cooling
food.

This is of particular interest to me during these hot So Florida summers
because my little terrier seems to be less energetic in class in the
last few weeks, coincidentally(???) since we've started feeding raw.

Pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. are dogs carnivoirs or omnivoirs
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:32 pm ((PDT))

I went to the vet today with my dog, Louie's, skin problem (we think
he has hypothyroidism). My vet told me that in fact dogs are
omnivoirs and they do need fruits and vegetables to live. She told me
to steer clear of the raw diet at all costs!
I know everyone has there beliefs....I just don't want him to end up
with health problems down the road. I also know that she is being fed
information through her dog food distributors....
Give me your insight please.....
Thank You all,
Mandy

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: are dogs carnivoirs or omnivoirs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi Mandy,

You need to read the rawfeeding myths where you will find not someone's
beliefs but the facts! Your vet should know that classification is based on
anatomy and physiology which proves that dogs are carnivores. And it is
no secret what the appropriate diet for a carnivore consists of...not fruits
and veggies!! :)

http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "mandajenwalker" <walker1031@chartermi.net>

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Melissa Wood" mwood8402@yahoo.com mwood8402
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

I'm a vegetarian too. Like others have said, it was gross at first, but you get used to it. I try to buy mostly humanely raised meats, so that helps.. I know my dog was meant to eat meat. It's not his fault that factory farms exist.

-Melissa W

____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Words of caution
Posted by: "nwohiopma" nwohiopma@yahoo.com nwohiopma
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

Hi Joe,

I feed pork spare ribs with a pork steak, bone removed from the steak.
I got a 36 lb. case for $65 on sale at House of Meats. The pork
steak was on sale for $1.19/lb.

I feed 1/4 slab of ribs and one pork steak per dog. The case lasts
for 12 meals.

House of Meats has frozen rabbits. There are 5 or 6 stores in the
Toledo area. They carry most organs, too.

My doggies don't like rabbit much, I have 4 or 5 in the freezer if
you'd like them. Send me an email if you're interested. I live just
north of the Franklin Park mall off Talmadge Rd. near Alexis Rd.

Here's the House of Meats website. You can find their weekly specials
and print coupons.

http://www.houseofmeats.com

Toledo Market is on Dorr St. between Secor and Byrne Rds. I saw
Anne's response telling you about it. Great source of goat.

Candace and the 4 Collies

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Hey y'all!
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:34 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Silvina!
> We aren't here to admonish people, that's not what we do!

You guys are so patient and knowlegeable I have never felt I was being
admonished. That was me being humorous. Ha,ha. I imagine I will get it
one of these days just right now that seems so far away :(

Silvina

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litte
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:34 pm ((PDT))

"I have not yet tried venison organs and I think that it will take some time
before the whole pack eagerly dives into a carcass, but for a first time
with such a large piece and with this new meat I think it went well."

It sounds like it went REALLY well. One of mine still won't eat raw liver -
doesn't like the texture - but he will eat it frozen; depends on the dog.
My other 3 eat anything.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Re: Dog with pancreatitis
Posted by: "Rhonda" rhonda18@gmail.com rhondabrabbin
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:36 pm ((PDT))

Hi Karen,

Someone on the list referred me to your post as my 6 month old
Greyhound puppy, Daphne, has EPI and type 1, insulin dependant,
diabetes. I want to transition over to a RAW diet, but am not sure
how to go about it I have been investigating the raw diet for about 4
days now. I am worried as I just got her to a point where she has
really good poops. Last night I gave her some semi raw [I broiled it
for 5 min] Mahi Mahi fish and she had diarrhea this morning so now I
am afraid to give her anything else raw. I did go to Petco today and
bought http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/RAW.html which is
raw but I know not the true RAW diet but it is a start.
I am just confused as of how to and if I should do this. I have been
feeding her

http://www.castorpolluxpet.com/store/organix/organix_adult_canine_form
ula
With Organic plain yogurt to mix the enzymes with also organic eggs
every other day.
Any advice you have would be more than welcome.

Thanks in advance.
Rhonda

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pretty24355" <blackdogshaven@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Laurie,
>
> What if the extent and > type of unnatural diet and lifestyle
combine
> w/a dog's genetics to
> > determine how disease is expressed?
>
> Dogs who come on this list with chronic pancreatic issues-for
> whatever reason-still have them. Since you cannot change the past,
> you need to try to help the dog in the future because the damage to
> the pancreas is done. That is why finding out the underlying cause
> of chronic pancreatitis is critical.
>
> < But if they ate a totally pure diet, got lots of sun, fresh air
> and exercise, had normal socialization, no vaccines or multiple
> wormings as puppies, etc.--maybe they wouldn't have any of those
> issues.>
>
> Of course those things help and should be done; but you need
> generations and generations of all of this to even begin to repair
> the damage. And, if a pancreas is fried or on its way to being
fried
> (mild chronic pancreatitis), nothing helps but 1) major diet
> restructuring and changes, 2) hopefully finding out the underlying
> cause and 3) adding a prescription strength pancreatic enzyme. We
> kid ourselves if we think anything else.
>
> My Samantha with Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency receives no
> vaccines, no flea, tick, heartworm treatment. I live on 12 acres of
> property in the hills in a very low population state with little
> pollution. She gets tons of sun, fresh air, and exercise. She is
> extremely well socialized and is never wormed. My dogs have been
> fed raw 7.5 years.
>
> Nevertheless, if Sam does not receive a prescription strength
> pancreatic enzyme with each and every meal, and is not given small
> meals - 3x daily, she gets diarrhea, vomits her food, and gets gassy
> and burpy. Sam had lost a great deal of her coat and 1/4 of her
body weight. Sam also has a very hard time putting on any weight,
but is regaining her coat. She is now able to eat chicken, pork,
fish, a bit of beef and some organs. We are getting there, but it is
a long and hard road for her.
>
> Panceratic isses are nothing to mess around with.
>
> Karen
>

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14.1. Re: turkey legs
Posted by: "nachoburrito" nachoburrito@yahoo.com nachoburrito
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:53 pm ((PDT))

I have pugs and thought I could feed the turkey
> drums with hearts with livers. They are pretty meaty. Should I whack
> the bone or is turkey bone also soft like chicken? The grocer told me
> it was softer than chicken but I rely on you.
>
> Silvina

My Standard Poodles and the neighbor's Mini Schnauzer adore turkey
drums, and gobble (sorry, make that "crunch" :-) up the bones with
gusto. I feed them once a week or so because a local market provides
them for 79 cents a pound. They don't have as much meat on them as the
Thanksgiving turkeys, so I'm thinking these birds get some exercize!
The bone ratio is way high compared to the model, so they also get some
pure muscle that day.

As for hardness, while they are harder than a young chicken, they seem
about comparable to an old stewing hen (which I also feed because a
friend has a "pasture hen" egg business).

However, the gang's favorite meal is lamb necks, which I thank this
list for putting me on to.

Cheers, Joan

Messages in this topic (31)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

15. Okay rawfeeders, riddle me this...
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:53 pm ((PDT))

Sorry for asking so many questions - first full day. :) If you want
to give them the largest hunk of ungulate body part you can find,
what do you do with what they don't immediately eat? Won't it just
sit and rot and smell if you leave it out?

This may seem like a very strange question to some of you, but from a
biological standpoint, which is what you guys are supporting with
your canine and feline diets, dogs would bring down a large animal as
a pack, and it may take them a week to get through the whole thing.
However, a) there isn't a freezer to stick it back into, and b) if
you already thawed out the meat once to give it to them, wouldn't it
be unwise to refreeze and thaw repeatedly? It makes meat go bad.

So what do you do in this instance? Simply cut the meat and bone
into properly sized proportions, or give them larger pieces and try
to resolve the problem of what to do with what they don't eat?

It is a tradeoff between what is best and what works out the best.
Or is all of this only a matter of personal preference?

If I lived in the country, I'd be keen on carcasses, but living in
the city is another story.

-Steph
w/ Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11953

There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Too Much Bone?
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Too Much Bone?
From: Laura Atkinson

2a. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Rhonda
2b. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Geri
2c. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Rhonda
2d. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: ibjef1f
2e. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Re: Not good teeth
From: Andrea
3b. Re: Not good teeth
From: Shannon Parker
3c. Re: Not good teeth
From: costrowski75
3d. Re: Not good teeth
From: Linda H. Gower
3e. Re: Not good teeth
From: carnesbill
3f. Re: Not good teeth
From: Laura Atkinson

4a. Re: Slippery Elm powder
From: Yasuko herron

5a. Skin allergy
From: Mary
5b. Re: Skin allergy
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Skin allergy
From: steph.sorensen

6a. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: Morledzep@aol.com
6b. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: Morledzep@aol.com
6c. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
From: steph.sorensen

7. Try these sources in Toledo, OH area
From: Michael Moore

8a. My questions about feeding raw
From: Erin Schaaf
8b. Re: My questions about feeding raw
From: Olga

9a. Re: New puppy and new to raw, I need a little info, please
From: janreedharrod

10. Kidney Failure
From: my3jcs

11a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litte
From: aqualitybeagles

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Too Much Bone?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:52 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tamara S. Koehn" <tskoehn@...>
wrote:
>
> I was alarmed when Sharon said too much bone can cause
> problems down the road. Would anybody mind elaborating on
> what those problems might be?

I don't buy that. The exact percentage of anything in a diet is not
critical. Who knows how much is enough to cause problems. Dr.
Lonsdale says that when he had a practice, he had clients who, for
years, fed their apparently healthy dogs nothing but chicken backs
and frames. Both of which are very very boney.

If you feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals and
a meal or two a week that is boneless, I don't see how you can feed
enough bone to harm your dog.

> A couple more questions. Does anybody know the ratio of
> the meat/bone/cartilege of chicken necks (I know, too small
> for the Prey model, but I'm just now trying to switch my way
> of thinking.)

I never concern myself with percentages or ratios of anything I feed
my dogs. Feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals
and it will all work out.

> Does cartilege count as a bone?

It counts are a part of an animal.

> Is trachea considered an organ meat?

I've never fed it except as part of a whole animal such as a rabbit
so I don't know. Again, it's part of an animal and good to feed.
Don't get hung up on ratios and percentages. People who do are
taking a very simple task(feeding a dog( and making it very
complicated. If you don't worry about percentages and ratios in
your own diet, there is no need to with your dog's diet.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Too Much Bone?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:21 am ((PDT))

There are specific circumstances where too much bone can cause problems.
Specifically, I'm referring to the whelping bitch. Too much dietary calcium
can cause the parathyroid gland to, in scientific terms <grin> go haywire,
so when calcium is needed to create strong contractions, the parathyroid
gland is non-functional, resulting in uterine inertia. And, post-whelp, the
result of too much dietary calcium can be eclampsia.

Additionally, during growth periods, large breed puppies have shown (in
clinical studies, I'd guess that anecdotal observations by breeders and
owners of large and giant breeds probably echos the same results) that
excessive amounts of calcium can cause skeletal disturbances (apparently
not so much in smaller breeds) and affect the setpoint of the parathyroid
gland even after the excess calcium is removed from the diet.

While the study in the developmental calcium absorbption was something like
300% more than the RDA for dogs and, I agree that it'd be hard to feed a dog
300x the amount of calcium they need while a puppy, in whelping bitches, the
margin for error is much smaller and even smaller for small breed/toy dogs.

While, in general, I agree that if you're feeding prey model, it's difficult
to give a dog too much calcium, sometimes people skim e-mails quickly and
don't really read all of a post and come away with an incorrect conclusion.

I frequently take issue with your posts because you rarely say that yes, you
feed chicken backs daily, without adding that you feed quanties of boneless
meat as well. While it may seem obvious to you that you should add boneless
meat in the diet when you're feeding a boney item, and obvious to those who
are experienced or even new but well researched, I think it leaves a false
impression with those trying to learn that a diet based on chicken backs is
a good thing.

For instance: an acquantance of mine heard somewhere that chicken backs
were a good basic staple for feeding raw. No one thought to add that she
needed to add meat to them. She was feeding one of my boy's littermate 3
pounds a day of chicken backs to keep weight on him, simply because he
wasn't getting enough meat. My boy eats less than a pound a day to maintain
a good weight. Just one example of how providing incomplete information can
mislead people who are new to raw and trying to figure things out.

On 8/24/07, carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tamara S. Koehn" <tskoehn@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I was alarmed when Sharon said too much bone can cause
> > problems down the road. Would anybody mind elaborating on
> > what those problems might be?
>
> I don't buy that. The exact percentage of anything in a diet is not
> critical. Who knows how much is enough to cause problems. Dr.
> Lonsdale says that when he had a practice, he had clients who, for
> years, fed their apparently healthy dogs nothing but chicken backs
> and frames. Both of which are very very boney.
>
> If you feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals and
> a meal or two a week that is boneless, I don't see how you can feed
> enough bone to harm your dog.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Rhonda" rhonda18@gmail.com rhondabrabbin
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:56 am ((PDT))

Hi Giselle,

She was diagnosis at the ripe old age of 4 months; she was having
diarrhea and was lethargic Friday of Memorial weekend I took her to
the vet who took a blood test on her and her blood sugar was 600,
normal is 80 to 150 she had to stay at the emergency vet all weekend
[which was a small fortune I might add] they did the test for EPI and
she had that too.
I probably didn't do this the right was but last night gave her Mahi
Mahi fish very rare, could bring myself to give it to her raw, I am
going to have to ease into this, but this morning she had diarrhea!
I had gotten her to a point to where her poops were just about
perfect, which is a big deal to a dog with EPI. So I guess I need to
read more on how to, or if to do this RAW thing.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Rhonda

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, Rhonda!
> I just want to say, "Yay to you for coming over to the
Raw
> Side!" and wanting to do the best for your pup and add a bit of
my .02
> cents to Laurie's great post (I'm definitely a meatatarian) by
saying
> that you could use double gloves, or the heavier, longer cuffed,
> reusable ones sold as dishwashing gloves when handling raw until you
> get used to it.
>
> There are some people on this list who are very knowledgeable about
> feeding dogs with EPI and diabetes, they'll chime in with some solid
> advice, I'm sure.
>
> How did your pup get diagnosed with such diseases at such a young
age?
> If I'm not mistaken, these are diseases that usually manifest in a
dog
> when they are older.
>
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>
>
> > I think there are quite a few of us vegetarians feeding raw meat
to
> > our dogs. You will get more comfortable with it as you go
along.
> > Just start with what you can handle and go from there. If you
need
> > to wear latex gloves, that might help. Maybe you can try to
remember
> > this is nature and you're doing the best for your dog by feeding
this
> > way.
> >
> > Organic meat may be slightly better than non-organic, but it's
> > probably not worth too much extra money, imo. It's often still
fed
> > inappropriately (grain-fed). If/when you can afford it, try to
find
> > grass-fed beef/lamb/goat, and more appropriately fed
> > chicken/turkey/pork. You can find grass-fed meats direct from
> > farmers or hunters, at farmers' markets, through local buying
groups
> > (where are you located?), at some Asian markets (they usually
have
> > goat, and I think it's usually grass-fed), or (expensive) at some
> > health food stores.
> <snip>
> > You can feed anywhere--I feed on a towel in the living room.
Others
> > do vinyl shower curtains, bath mats, blankets, outside on the
> > patio/in the yard, in crates, or just on the kitchen floor.
> >
> > Laurie
> >
>

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Geri" auntigeri@aol.com gericolloton
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:28 am ((PDT))

Hi Rhonda

I am a vegetarian also. Somehow I am able to get past the "ick
factor" although when I first started feeding raw I was definitely
worried about that. I know that feeding raw is best for my fur kids.

Good luck

Geri

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Rhonda" <rhonda18@...> wrote:
>
> I am a vegetarian who wants to start feeding my 6 month old puppy
with
> type 1 insulin dependant diabetes and Exocrine Pancreatic
Insufficiency
> the RAW diet. I just wanted to know if there are any other
vegetarians
> out there and how they were able to get past dealing with raw
meat.

> Rhonda
>

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Rhonda" rhonda18@gmail.com rhondabrabbin
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:29 am ((PDT))

Kerry,

Thank you so much, that was great info! I am printing your post out
to keep with me.
Rhonda
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pelirojita" <kerrymurray7@...>
wrote:
>
> -
> > I just wanted to know if there are any other vegetarians
> > > out there and how they were able to get past dealing with raw
meat.
> > The
>
> > Hi, Rhonda. Just another vegetarian(almost vegan) who feeds my
puppy
> > (21 weeks old) raw. Can't help you with the sick part, but I can
tell
> > you I suck it up and cut chickens in half, and other meats into
big
> > hunks. Yuk! I want to puke sometimes, but I really, really
believe
> > it's the best for my dog. Just like I believe a plant based diet
is
> > best for us, a meat based diet is best for my little puppers. It
is
> > hard sometimes, but get as much knowledge as you can so you can
keep
> > telling yourself it's best for the dog!
> >
> > Anna
> >
> Hi Rhonda,
>
> I too am a vegetarian (almost vegan) who has had an almost
> animal-product-free kitchen for the last 6 years (except of course
for
> the very much alive dogs and parrots that regularly call our house
> home). I switched my dogs to raw at the beginning of July. This
list
> is full of very experience raw feeders who have lots of great info
to
> offer. So keep posting your questions and concerns. I don't
qualify
> as experienced but can tell you what I do to get through the whole
> icky meat-handling experience
>
> 1 - I bought a set of good kitchen shears (per recommendation on
this
> list). I find cutting up the meat (when necessary - learn about
> feeding "big") with shears to require much less handling then with
> knives. I dedicate a set of shears to the dogs' food and do NOT use
> them for anything else regardless of how many times they go through
> the dishwasher.
>
> 2 - I feed "big" (for my dog who will eat "big" - the other requires
> appropriate portions cut with previously mentioned shears...) I
suck
> it up the 30-60 seconds it takes me to cut a chicken out of its
> plastic packaging, squeeze the giblets into the body cavity, then
feed
> the whole thing to the dog outside. He eats his fill. I scoop the
> leftovers pack in to his dish (can often do this without even
touching
> them by using a plastic bag or stick or whatever is handy), not
> worrying about the gravel, leaves or anything else that has gotten
> stuck to it, wrap it well in either cling wrap and refrigerate for
the
> next day. I can often get 5 days worth of feeding out of one
chicken
> for one of my dogs (usually feeding him every other day to space it
> out and let him eat his fill). Thus significantly reducing how
often
> and to what extent I handle the meat.
>
> 3 - I have found that as time progresses, I am less and less
> squeamish, get more and more resourceful in minimizing my contact.
> Having two thrilled dogs practically doing backflips while I get the
> food ready is pretty good motivation. Find out what you need to
> accommodate both your dog's age and her health issues (I'm dealing
> with generally healthy, adult dogs), then jump in tweaking your
method
> as you go.
>
> 4 - As an ethical vegetarian, I look for ethically raised meats - I
> shop at Trader Joe's and buy free-range chickens for 1.69 lb. At
> Sunflower Market (a local health food store with prices
significantly
> lower then Whole Foods/Wild Oats) I can get certain cuts of
> hormone-free beef and pork for under $2/lb. At my Community
Supported
> Agricultural (CSA) group I can get grass-fed, ethically raised beef
> tongue, beef heart and the occasional additional "parts" for $1/lb,
as
> well as appropriately fed chicken. A grass-fed beef supplier at my
> local Farmer's Market brings all sorts of trim for me for $3.00/lb
(my
> splurge...), she even invited my toddler son, myself and my dogs to
> her ranch for a pasture party. Now, I do know the Dennis Miller
joke
> about "free-range" chickens being just as dead as any other that
ends
> up on a plate or in a dog's bowl, but all the things above make me
> feel better about my choices.
>
> I have just joined a local rawfeeding co-op and we'll see what
arises
> from that (I have yet to make a purchase due to the size of the
orders
> and my lack of freezer space, I found the co-op on the
> CarnivoreSupplier list that is a sister to this one). I haven't
added
> a new protein lately and need to branch out, but know a few
> bow-hunters who are going to be willing to share real soon.
>
> I find that the prey-model diet makes a lot of sense with my values
as
> nothing goes to waste. The dogs are happy to have whatever parts
that
> would normally not be considered appropriate for human consumption.
> My hunter friends are enjoying my new change-of-heart about their
> passion (actually they are teasing me mercilessly, but then they
have
> promised free meat, so I'll take it...) and are happy to have a
> destination for what they would normally throw out.
>
> Once you have the health issues straight for your girl, jump on in.
> You will find your groove and it does get easier and faster. People
> hear are quite happy to hold your hand in the process. Your dog
will
> thank you for it.
>
> Best of luck,
> Kerry
> Tucson,AZ
>

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "ibjef1f" ibjef1f@yahoo.com ibjef1f
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:52 am ((PDT))

Hey Rhonda,
Welcome to the group and your new journey. When my girlfriend and I
adopted a mostly raw diet for ourselves last year, I researched a raw
diet for our newly adopted pit bull. I was expecting it to be plant
based, since I thought dogs were omnivorous and I fed my previous lab
of over 16 yrs a grain and plant based diet. Had I known then...
All of the replies so far have been great. I would only add that you
consider buying the book "Raw Meaty Bones" by Tom Lonsdale, if you
haven't already. I bought mine at Amazon. It will be a great source of
info for you, as well as this list. Although I'm not squeamish about
handling meat, I agree with all those who say that it will diminish in
time, especially knowing that it will be for your dog's optimal health.
Good luck!

Jef

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Re: vegetarian who wants to start feeding my ill 6 month old puppy r
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi Rhonda,

I would suggest looking back into the archives regarding how to feed a dog
with EPI, pancreatitis, etc Here are a few messages to get you started!!

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/119430
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/122181
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/122224
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/91117
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/60393
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/88618

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Rhonda" <rhonda18@gmail.com>

I probably didn't do this the right was but last night gave her Mahi
Mahi fish very rare, could bring myself to give it to her raw, I am
going to have to ease into this, but this morning she had diarrhea!
I had gotten her to a point to where her poops were just about
perfect, which is a big deal to a dog with EPI. So I guess I need to
read more on how to, or if to do this RAW thing.

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:00 am ((PDT))

I agree with Bill, missing the front teeth isn't going to be too much
of a problem. Feed nice big meals so that she can't swallow the food
whole and her teeth will come clean pretty quickly. I know you
already have some chicken wings, but you should get some whole
chickens and cut them into quarters first. Wings are not only really
boney, they are small enough for some dogs to try and swallow whole.

If her back teeth are already damaged you might encounter tooth
breaking down the line, but no more than if she continues with her
regular diet. Don't feed her weight bearing bones from super heavy
animals (beef marrow bones for example) and you won't ruin her
teeth. Chicken, pork, turkey, rabbit etc have soft edible bones that
will be good for her. Holler if you have more questions, ok?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "macattack0201" <bmcneil@...>
wrote:

> it was suggested that maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to give
> her any wings (or other small bones to eat) because it might ruin
> and/or break the rest of her teeth off.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:28 am ((PDT))

Hi Bridget,

My 12 year old grey hound had all of her incisors removed (she wore them down during her racing days) and had terrible plaque on her pre-molars and Molars. I've had her on raw since last November...started her on bone-in chicken right off the bat. I had no problems (chicken bones are so easy for them to chew through) and her teeth are glistening white! My friends who see her (and smell her breath) cannot believe how wonderful they look. This is my experience, so if I were you I would go ahead and give her some bones!

Shannon

macattack0201 <bmcneil@fdainfo.com> wrote:
Please tell me what you think. She was used for breeding and terribly
overbred and I'm afraid that her calcium levels aren't very good.
TIA!
Bridget

---------------------------------
All new Yahoo! Mail
---------------------------------
Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:14 am ((PDT))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
Dogs don't use their
> front teeth to eat anyway.
*****
Don't be silly. Of course they do.
Now, if you never feed your dog complicated meaty bones that require a
lot of grunt work, that dog may never need them, but that's that dog.
The inscisors are there to use, if they were not used they'd be going,
going, gone.

A dog can go through life without having to rip and tear food, and
because of that we can say with certainy that a dog without inscisors
can eat well. But not using them doesn't mean the species doesn't use
them.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "Linda H. Gower" pudeltime@bellsouth.net pudeltime
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:31 am ((PDT))

I was totally amazed at my Std Poodle when he was crunching chicken bones with his incisors this week. I suppose jaw pressure is jaw pressure, but wouldn't have expected him to use his front teeth.
He's still testing the grab it and crunch principles

Linda Gower

> "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> Dogs don't use their
> > front teeth to eat anyway.
> *****
> Don't be silly. Of course they do.

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3e. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:21 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "carnesbill" <carnesw@> wrote:
> Dogs don't use their
> > front teeth to eat anyway.
> *****
> Don't be silly. Of course they do.
> Now, if you never feed your dog complicated meaty bones that
> require a lot of grunt work, that dog may never need them,
> but that's that dog.
> The inscisors are there to use, if they were not used they'd
> be going, going, gone.

"(A dog)has six incisors on the upper jaw and six on the lower. He
uses the incisors to nibble shreds of meat from bones and to groom
himself and other dogs. Mutual grooming is a greeting and bonding
behavior in dogs that maintains pack order."

"Canine teeth are the scary ones. They conjure up mind-pictures of
ferocious wild creatures and lead to fear of mild-mannered dogs that
happen to show their teeth a lot. Wolves use their fangs to grab and
rip their prey; dogs use them to hold objects in their mouths and to
defend themselves when necessary."

"Four premolars line each side of the upper and lower jaws in back
of the canines. These are the shearing teeth, used to rip great
hunks of flesh from prey animals. Although they no longer hunt for
survival, dogs can still eat in the manner of wolves — by grabbing
meat with the premolars and ripping it off the bone."

"Dogs use their premolars to chew on rawhides, bones, and other chew
toys. They hold the toy between their paws and grab it with these
strong pointed teeth by tilting their jaws to the side."

"The top jaw has two molars on each side, and the bottom jaw has
three. These are the crushing teeth, use by wolves to crack caribou
bones .... "
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/teeth.html

In 4 1/2 years of raw feeding, I have never seen my dogs use front
teeth to eat with. Yes, often they get a whole picnic pork roast or
Boston Butt pork roast. They always use side teeth when eating, no
matter what it is or how large it is.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3f. Re: Not good teeth
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

And, in 4+ years, I've seen it numerous times. Most especially when they
get something like a slab o' beef ribs, where there's lots of lovely nibling
to be done to get the last bits of connective tissue off before I take them
away. Complicated doesn't always mean big.

Just 'cause you ain't seen it doesn't mean it don't happen.

On 8/24/07, carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > "carnesbill" <carnesw@> wrote:
> > Dogs don't use their
> > > front teeth to eat anyway.
> > *****
> > Don't be silly. Of course they do.
> > Now, if you never feed your dog complicated meaty bones that
> > require a lot of grunt work, that dog may never need them,
> > but that's that dog.
> > The inscisors are there to use, if they were not used they'd
> > be going, going, gone.
>
> <lots of snippage>

In 4 1/2 years of raw feeding, I have never seen my dogs use front
> teeth to eat with. Yes, often they get a whole picnic pork roast or
> Boston Butt pork roast. They always use side teeth when eating, no
> matter what it is or how large it is.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Slippery Elm powder
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:29 am ((PDT))

>fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm

I am started thinking that I should have this all time around,but this elm powder can be stored unlimited time?

Where do you keep it?

Freezer? At room temp?

Dosage is human dosage on package? I need to see when I get it though.For 30lb dog,it maybe tiny bit,I am guessing..

I am wondering if I should get 1lb or 3 cups one..I know that I give only when my dog gets liquidy diarrhea and not giving on regular basis.

If the powder lasts forever,I may go for 1lb.

So far,I am using liquid probiotic that she does pretty good on only when she has prob with poo. I was thinking to finish this up and then get this elm powder but maybe good to keep it around and thinking to get it.

thank you

yassy

---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Skin allergy
Posted by: "Mary" halle4@comcast.net hallebest
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:34 am ((PDT))

I have a Crested who is good about eating the raw foods put in front of him
but he has broken out on his back. The bumps aren't tiny, they are bit
unsightly. Although Crested's certainly have skin problems, this breakout
has happened since we started on raw a few months ago. They don't bother
him but I think he may have an allergy to one of the foods he is eating. He
eats chicken, beef and pork and on occasion fish.

Which would be the most likely to cause a skin reaction? Anybody know?

Mary Smallwood
York, PA
halle4@comcast.net

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Skin allergy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:05 am ((PDT))

"Mary" <halle4@...> wrote:
>
> I have a Crested who is good about eating the raw foods put in
front of him
> but he has broken out on his back. The bumps aren't tiny, they are
bit
> unsightly. Although Crested's certainly have skin problems, this
breakout
> has happened since we started on raw a few months ago. They don't
bother
> him but I think he may have an allergy to one of the foods he is
eating. He
> eats chicken, beef and pork and on occasion fish.
>
> Which would be the most likely to cause a skin reaction?
*****
There's no way for us to know. A protein sensitivity can be to any
protein, depends on the dog.

What you can do is feed one and only one meat (including treats and
organs) for a month or so to see if that changes anything. You may
have to go through all the proteins you have fed if in fact he was
not having this reaction pre raw.

You also might assure the meats you are feeding are not enhanced with
various flavors or solutions. Some dogs are not notably affected by
such injections but many are. Also suss out all potential
environmental irritants as well. Consider vaccines, parasite
treatments and other medications plus parasites themselves.

You must be patient and diligent--or very lucky--since this sort of
histamine detecting may take some time.

I don't believe it's likely the actual meat protein is causing his
reaction but anything's possible.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: Skin allergy
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "Mary" <halle4@> wrote:
> >
> > I have a Crested who is good about eating the raw foods put in
> front of him
> > but he has broken out on his back. The bumps aren't tiny, they
are
> bit
> > unsightly.

> >
> > Which would be the most likely to cause a skin reaction?
*************************
Chris O wrote:

> There's no way for us to know. A protein sensitivity can be to
any protein, depends on the dog.
>
> I don't believe it's likely the actual meat protein is causing his
> reaction but anything's possible.
> Chris O
>
**************************
I actually talked to a co-worker that has a rescue that is allergic
to most proteins and actually has to eat a special food where the
protein has been modified genetically so her body doesn't recognize
it.

If the bumps don't go away or appear to get worse and you can't
figure out the problem, I can always ask my co-worker again what
food she is using for her rescue.

-Steph Sorensen
w/ Scarlet, Lucy, and Minkey (the kitty)

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:16 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/24/2007 4:48:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
steph.sorensen@yahoo.com writes:

Wouldn't I have to worry about him choking on the bones if they
weren't ground for him? Since he was starving when I got him (he
weighed only 20 lbs and now weighs about 50, just to give you an
idea), he tends to "wolf" (pardon the pun) his food down. I would
be afraid he would not try hard enough to chew the bones. Or that
he wouldn't be able to. He has strong jaws, just no teeth to crush.

****his teeth haven't been removed, right? they are just ground down to the
gum line? that's what you said in your first post.

give him a bone-in breast.. see what he does. The way wolves naturally eat
is to rip big hunks off a carcass and swallow it in the most efficient way
possible.. the less chewing the better. they are naturally designed to swallow
large hunks of stuff..

IF he chokes, he will hack it back up and rechew it to make it go down. This
is normal and natural.. if he swallows a hunk too big for him to digest he
will toss it back up and re-eat it, this too is normal and natural.

with dogs this size i personally would start with nothing larger than chicken
quarters, just because they are big enough to be difficult to swallow whole
and just about the right size for a meal for 50ish lb dogs.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:24 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/24/2007 4:48:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
steph.sorensen@yahoo.com writes:

My pit can crack a large ham bone in half within 20 minutes
or so. I give them bones all the time as treats, but never as meals.

****and.. NO MORE BARE NAKED OR COOKED BONES.... there..you've been scolded.

seriously, ham bones are cooked, and therefore the possibility of
splintering, choking and blockages is ever present.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: to Catherine on feeding toothless pit bull
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 8/24/2007 4:48:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> steph.sorensen@... writes:
>
> My pit can crack a large ham bone in half within 20 minutes
> or so. I give them bones all the time as treats, but never as
meals.
>
>
>
> ****and.. NO MORE BARE NAKED OR COOKED BONES.... there..you've
been scolded.
>
> seriously, ham bones are cooked, and therefore the possibility of
> splintering, choking and blockages is ever present.
>
> Catherine R.
>
>
>
> **************************************

-Steph Sorensen
w/ Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7. Try these sources in Toledo, OH area
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:32 am ((PDT))

Hey, Joe -- try House of Meats - If you buy by the case, they have some pretty good prices. I can't claim to have "found" them on my own; Candace from the list pointed me this direction. Their chicken by the case and almost all organs are great prices. If even you don't buy a case, their organ prices are reasonable. Talk to the manager, and once you're "known," you may get even better deals.

And, at the Toledo Market you can get goat. Keep in mind that these folks are Muslim, so their traditions are "different". Never tell them you are buying meat for your dogs, though!! Freeze anything you buy there for a month to kill any parasites, since it's not FDA inspected.

Or, if you're up for a road trip, check out Eastern Market in Detroit (Gerry Bierley tipped me off to this one!).
There is also a buyers' co-op in the Columbus area, and several of us in Findlay buy from there sometimes, so that's a possibility for you as well.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. My questions about feeding raw
Posted by: "Erin Schaaf" lovefiona_555@yahoo.com lovefiona_555
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:21 pm ((PDT))

I am not sure if I can start posting questions right away, I am trudging through 14 emails from this group, LOL! So here's a small amount of background. Right now, I am working on switching my 2 dogs over to RAW. Fiona (our staffordshire terrier) has problems with vomitting and loose stools, and after several trips to the vet and an equal amount of changes in food, my vet wants to do some major diagnostic tests. I believe that before I put her through all that, I would like to try RAW in case she is having problems with allergies. Rufus (our Lab/Doberman mix) is coming along for the ride. I began this morning giving them some raw chicken. So here are the questions:
1. How much to feed? Rufus is 65 lbs and Fiona is 37. I am unsure of the cats weights right now, Diego is a kitten around 5 months and Carmen is about a year old (Diego was weighed at his neuter about a month ago, he was 4.4 lbs. Carmen hasn't been to the vet since December when we got her as a kitten). Their bodies look to be a little on the full size (not overweight, but not as trim as they probably should be). Exercise consists of at least two walks a day and/or a third walk or running around on a 30 ft. lead in the park). Carmen is too overweight in my opinion, and Diego is a growing kitten.
2. I hear about the Prey Model diet, and it is really confusing me. Feed organ meats one day, bones another.....I am lost. Is this the way to go, or is it best to feed just a variety of meats and parts with no sets schedule.
3. Cats. Mine aren't interested in bones. Can I feed them groundand small diced meats instead? I know it is extremely bad for overweight cats to go without food for more than 24 hours, and she won't eat the whole meat.

I am sure there will be other questions, but these are all I can think of right now. Thank you in advance, and I apologize if I am posting wrong.

Erin

---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: My questions about feeding raw
Posted by: "Olga" olga.drozd@gmail.com olga_d
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi Erin and welcome to the group!

I have two dogs also, who are similar size to yours (40 and 75 lbs) so
hopefully listing what I feed will get you started. It's really not
complicated at all - to start, get some whole chickens, or chicken leg
quarters from the store. I would suggest one quarter per day for the
smaller dog, and 2 quarters (or one half chicken) per day for the
larger dog. Feed that for about a week, so that their tummies can
adjust to this new food.

After this first week, you will add another protein to their chicken
diet - usually turkey or pork is a good choice. After a few days
you'll add a third, and so on. Give it a few weeks before you start
worrying about organs - they loosen stools, which is not a bad thing,
but you don't want to get too many things started at once. If you get
whole chickens and they come with that "goodie" bag, just toss it in
the freezer for now and feed later.

Measuring raw food is different than kibble. Rather than cups, we use
weight and it's based on your dogs' ideal adult weight. The general
guideline is 2-3% of their weight (so for a 50 lb dog that would be
1-1.5 lbs) and I usually suggest to start at 2% and adjust from there.
Individual metabolism varies widely, so no one can tell you exactly
how much to feed. Just keep an eye on their ribs and make sure you
can feel them. Can't help much with cats, as I don't have any, sorry.

In the meantime keep reading, and toss out any questions you may have.
It seems overwhelming right now, I know (we've all been there!) but
as you read, it will begin to make more sense.

Olga

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: New puppy and new to raw, I need a little info, please
Posted by: "janreedharrod" janreedharrod@gmail.com janreedharrod
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:21 pm ((PDT))

Thank you so much, Jeni and Andrea, for the great info re veggies and
such. I'm off to the market for meat and chix for her to sink her
little teeth into and tear apart. Can't wait to watch. I'll try the
egg offering but don't think she'll know what to do with a raw egg in
shell but we'll see, she is, after all, a pretty smart little cookie.

Thanks again, Jan
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "janreedharrod"
> janreedharrod@ wrote:
>
> > Should I cut out the veggie patty, and mix egg with crushed shell
> > along with yogurt and cheese into some of the meat patties and
> > freeze them, or is that even necessary in her diet?
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10. Kidney Failure
Posted by: "my3jcs" my3jcs@yahoo.com my3jcs
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

Hello!

I am new to the list and new to raw feeding. I have 3 65-70 lb. dogs
who I began on the diet just over a week ago. They all seem to be
doing great and it is the most fascinating thing watching them eat.
Kibble was so boring. I'm hoping for some help with one of my dogs
who has kidney problems. Over a year ago, we were told by our vet,
that our dog had failing kidneys and they put him on the Science KD
dog food. He is a 9 yr. old boxer/sharpei. Can anyone share with me
how best to feed him raw? My vet warned me about feeding him too much
protein with the raw food so I'm worried about making my dog worse.

Thank you so much!

Carol W.

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Venison Organs/Parts & First Rawfed litte
Posted by: "aqualitybeagles" a-qualitybeagles@earthlink.net aqualitybeagles
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
"The shoulders/neck is there a lot of meat on them? and the carcass?"

They are regular shoulders, neck & carass straight off the deer,
nothing detached except the hide and loins (we keep the loins & hams
for ourselves). The deer (a young buck) was aged at 1.5 to 2 yrs old,
so he weighed around 100lbs.

I fed the carass, some of my younger dogs dove in, it seemed to me to
be around 6-10 lbs of meat on the carcass - I cut off what the younger
dogs didn't eat and gave it to the ones who seemed unsure of the
carass. The ribs were very soft so they consumed several of them as
well as the brisket area. I believe it was a very meaty meal in the
way that they ate it (still quite alot of bone leftover, but that will
probably change next time they encounter a carcass).

Their poop was normal for the following 48 hours, just a little soft
sometimes.

It seems as if everyone is alright with the venison. I have not yet
tried venison organs and I think that it will take some time before
the whole pack eagerly dives into a carcass, but for a first time with
such a large piece and with this new meat I think it went well.

Laura Peters
A-Quality Beagles, Reg'd.
www.a-qualitybeagles.com

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------