Feed Pets Raw Food: Aug 15, 2007

Wednesday, August 15, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11914

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: lamb neck bones
From: Patty Reid

2. small raw previously frozen bones?
From: JOHN PFAFF

3a. Re: how can i entice my dog to eat organs?
From: rosey031801

4a. Re: raw and sick
From: marblekallie

5a. Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....
From: JOHN PFAFF
5b. Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....
From: katkellm

6.1. Re: Question
From: Yasuko herron

7a. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
From: kalina82
7b. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
From: kalina82
7c. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
From: Laurie Swanson

8a. Hi, I'm New
From: charlesmdodson
8b. Re: Hi, I'm New
From: Laura Atkinson
8c. Re: Hi, I'm New
From: Laurie Swanson
8d. Re: Hi, I'm New
From: Morledzep@aol.com
8e. Re: Hi, I'm New
From: Nathalie Poulin

9a. Re: MOTHER
From: Sheryl Edelen
9b. Re: MOTHER
From: woofwoofgrrl
9c. MOTHER
From: blechatlb@aol.com

10a. Re: weight of food or feeding small dogs
From: delcaste

11a. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
From: delcaste
11b. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
From: Brandi Bryant
11c. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
From: Morledzep@aol.com

12a. Re: probiotics or just transition time
From: Loretta Luja

13. vet says Yeay to rawfeeding
From: Ivette Casiano

14a. Re: guilt and anger
From: Ivette Casiano

Messages
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1a. Re: lamb neck bones
Posted by: "Patty Reid" pattyannreidster@gmail.com pattyannreid
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

Who is Peter? How to contact him?

Patty

On 8/15/07, Jen <jboydmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Sue,
>
> I order most of my meat from Peter. He is really great, if you are
> unsure about what you got from him, do ask him. He's really
> knowledgeable about raw feeding and willing to help. Aside from that,
> I'd recommend getting the whole lamb necks he sells rather than the
> bones. At $1.35/lb they're my absolute favorite cut to feed. It's
> the entire neck bone wrapped in meat and surrounded by a layer of fat.
> For my dogs it's the perfect meat:bone ratio - they have the best
> stool after eating those.
>
> The necks are about 3 lbs each and it takes my dogs about an hour to
> eat one.
>
> FYI, he's sometimes low on those so you may have to ask ahead.
>
> Jen
>
>
>

--
Patty
www.monetstandards.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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2. small raw previously frozen bones?
Posted by: "JOHN PFAFF" johnpfaff@comcast.net rawfeednewbie
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

As in squirrel and rabbit for a large dog?>
Please comment.
Tks,
John
JOHN PFAFF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: how can i entice my dog to eat organs?
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

My dog prefers fozen organs to thawed out. I think it is the texture.
Also I make sure he is really hungry and give it before any other type
of meat.
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: raw and sick
Posted by: "marblekallie" marble@pipeline.com marblekallie
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

Hi:

This sounds awfully like pyometra, but she is a bit young to get it.
Whatever it is, it is an emergency and she should be at the vet
pronto.

Philippa Jordan
New York City

> She drinks water and throws up. I spoon fed some yogurt into
> her but she didn't like it either. If you press her stomach it is
not
> hard or tender, she doesn't flinch at all. She is not herself at
all.
> Just plain dah. If they have an impaction from pieces of bone would
> the stomach be hard and hurt when you pressed on it. her temperature
> is 101.9 Fahrenheit or 38.83 Celsius. Help!!!!
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....
Posted by: "JOHN PFAFF" johnpfaff@comcast.net rawfeednewbie
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:47 pm ((PDT))

How small can the bones be if raw?

JOHN PFAFF
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN PFAFF
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:00 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....

....will fresh rabbit and squirrel pose a danger to my rott pup? I intend to thoroughly freeze the meat beforehand to kill parasites. Any comments will be appreciated.
John. :)
JOHN PFAFF

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Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:22 pm ((PDT))

>
> ....will fresh rabbit and squirrel pose a danger to my rott pup? I
intend to thoroughly freeze the meat beforehand to kill parasites.

Hi John,
I live in a little rural town out on a farm, and my dogs catch
squirrels and rabbits fairly regularly-have for 3 years, and i have
never had a problem. They eat them as is-head to tail- and the size
of/or the bones have never posed a problem(lab, aussie, jindo). I
don't have the luxury to be able to freeze em before they eat em, and
I have never had problems with parasites either, but that is not to
say that i won't at sometime. KathyM who knows it sounds gross

Messages in this topic (3)
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6.1. Re: Question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:27 pm ((PDT))

>How do you deal with the possibility of a parasitic infection? Specifically
>Trichinosis from ingesting raw meat (pork, deer, etc..).

Hi. Domestic pork (US or Canada) are safe. I feed pork now and then but my dog has no problems.

I read that wild deer/rabbit etc better deep freeze here in list but, all I buy is from already being frozen and not wild so, I can feed safely.

Just avoid Trout or Salmon from pacific north west ;CA to Alaska line,due salmon poisoning possibility.

yassy

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (144)
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7a. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
Posted by: "kalina82" kalina82@yahoo.com kalina82
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "brake4breyers832"
<pebbles_diehl@...> wrote:
>
>
> "The only challenging thing is that, according to the 2-3% of ideal
> body weight rule, they should technically only be eating about half
> of a drumstick a day."
>

wow so she shouldn't even get a whole drumstick? So after we break
into the chicken what is the next meat that you would try that's small?

Kellie

Messages in this topic (6)
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7b. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
Posted by: "kalina82" kalina82@yahoo.com kalina82
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:31 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, blechatlb@... wrote:

>
> Have you tried chicken drumettes?
>
> TracyB

I'll look into these too. What about cornish hens?

Kellie

Messages in this topic (6)
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7c. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

Turkey (especially breasts), rabbit, and fish have easy bones. But you
can feed any meat. You can use chicken for the boney meals and add in
a bit of any kind of boneless meat, or alternate boney w/boneless
meals. Chicken feet might be a good source of bone, too, and then you
could feed those w/a hunk of meat. You might also try searching the
archives for more small/tiny dog info.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kalina82" <kalina82@...> wrote:
So after we break
> into the chicken what is the next meat that you would try that's
small?
>
> Kellie
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. Hi, I'm New
Posted by: "charlesmdodson" charlesmdodson@yahoo.com charlesmdodson
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:31 pm ((PDT))

This is my first post. My name is Charles and my wife and kids and I
live in the high desert in Southern California. I was referred here
by a member of a Doberman site I belong to. I have a 30 lb Beagle
named Nala and a (almost) 7 month old Doberman named Sherman, as in
the tank. He weighs 70 lbs.

I am just a couple weeks into feeding him raw and have him up to 2
out of 3 meals a day consisting of raw foods. The one other meal is
a mixture of Canidae and Innova Large Breed Puppy.

I guess my first question here is about carbs. A dog nutrition lady
told me Sherman needs carbs in his diet other than just feeding him
meat, bones, and organs (and the occasional raw egg). She said he
needs vegetables or the like. Any input?

BTW, my raw ingredients, to start, consist of chicken quarters,
turkey necks (both of which he adores), beef liver, pigs feet, and
the occasional raw egg.

Any input is really appreciated. Already I have noticed his coat
gleams better than before and seems to have more natural oil to it.
I also notice his teeth are even cleaner than before and of course he
produces less 'waste.'

Messages in this topic (5)
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8b. Re: Hi, I'm New
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

Input? I hope you didn't pay the dog nutrition lady any money.

Dogs have no dietary need for carbohyrdrates, that's in some veterinary
manual, Mercks or Kirks or somesuch mainstream thing.
Dump the kibble, he needs that like a hole in the head. Ditto with veggies.

Your diet is a little bone heavy. Add in some muscle meat, beef heart is
always a good option in my book. It's nutrient dense, red meat. Pork meat
too, is another good choice.

Meat, bone and organs...that's all he needs to start with.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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8c. Re: Hi, I'm New
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

****Hi Charles,

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "charlesmdodson"
<charlesmdodson@...> wrote:
> I guess my first question here is about carbs. A dog nutrition
lady
> told me Sherman needs carbs in his diet other than just feeding him
> meat, bones, and organs (and the occasional raw egg). She said he
> needs vegetables or the like. Any input?

****I'm sure most of us thought this and have been told this by
someone in a position of "authority." Many reasons why, I think--
mostly that dog food companies decided to make "foods" out of cheap
grains and beet pulp, etc. and convinced us and vets it's fine and
even healthy. Did you know that most vets get about 1-2 days of
nutrition education which is usually put on by Hill's (Science Diet),
etc.? And then when we try to re-create kibble with raw (which is
stupid, anyway), we fall into the trap of "they need their vitamins"
(which we think are only in veggies--we don't realize there's lots of
vitamins and minerals in meat, bones, and organs!). Then there's our
tendency to anthropomorphize and think because we need veggies/carbs
that dogs do.

>
> BTW, my raw ingredients, to start, consist of chicken quarters,
> turkey necks (both of which he adores), beef liver, pigs feet, and
> the occasional raw egg.

****As you've heard, you need more meat. Think of a whole prey
animal and work toward assembling that as best you can over the long-
term. Lots of meat, some bone, and a bit of organs. A lot of people
start with chicken and it's easy whole prey, but you'll want to find
more variety eventually. Beef, pork, lamb, goat, turkey, fish, emu,
venison--whatever you can get.

--Laurie

Messages in this topic (5)
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8d. Re: Hi, I'm New
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:42 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/15/2007 3:32:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
charlesmdodson@yahoo.com writes:

Charles,

Because i'm lazy.. i'm going to copy and paste a post i did just this
morning..

"you're gonna hear this from LOTS of folks.. get ready for the barrage..

cancel your order for the chicken backs and necks.. these are not suitable
parts for any dog, too much bone and the necks are the perfect shape to cause
choking.

Prey model raw feeding is about attempting to feed as close to nature as
possible. All dogs are selectively inbred grey wolves, grey wolves eat prey
animals. Prey animals broken down into easy percentages comes to APPROXIMATELY 10%
edible bone, 10% organ meat, and the rest is MEAT, fat, cartilage, sinew,
skin and MEAT..

you want MEAT with bone in it, you do NOT want BONE with meat on it. And
LOTS of meals will probably end up being completely boneless..

i don't know what "white bones" you were talking about.. i'm suspecting beef
femur, soup bone, knuckle bone, marrow bone (all the same thing), which can
and do break dog's teeth. And are virtually meatless..

go back to the grocery store.. pick up WHOLE chickens.. whack them into
convenient meal sized hunks and feed them to the dogs for a week or two..
Then venture into bigger and better meats, pork, turkey, duck, beef, lamb,
goat, emu.. just to name a few. And don't forget the organs."

Charles,

I'm also going to add that mixing kibble and raw is a recipe for digestive
upset.. and a 7 month old dog is more than capable of eating twice a day or
less.. looks like the things you've already fed are mostly bone and fat, not a
lot of good muscle meat, which should be the bulk of the diet. And, i don't
have a link to it anymore, i'm sure someone else can help with that part.. but
dogs have NO dietary need for carbs or vegetable matter. And some can cause
allergic reactions, inhibit thyroid function or act as a diuretic.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (5)
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8e. Re: Hi, I'm New
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:47 pm ((PDT))

Charles,

Check out this site, it should really help you out.

www.rawfed.com/myths

Nathalie

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Messages in this topic (5)
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9a. Re: MOTHER
Posted by: "Sheryl Edelen" sophiiblu@yahoo.com sophiiblu
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT))

I thought it was bad only if your pets are Muslim.

Sheryl Edelen
Co-moderator, If Pits & Rotts Could Talk
"People think responsibility is hard to bear. It's not. I think that sometimes it is the absence of responsibility that is harder to bear. You have a great feeling of impotence." - Henry Kissinger

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Messages in this topic (7)
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9b. Re: MOTHER
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

Or Jewish. But boy, a raw diet certainly would make it easier for the
dog to follow the kosher laws!

Christine

Sheryl Edelen wrote:
>
>
> I thought it was bad only if your pets are Muslim.

Messages in this topic (7)
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9c. MOTHER
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:45 pm ((PDT))

Denise,

I feed pork at least 3 x per week, and I don't freeze it first. My dogs do great with it, never had an issue.

TracyB

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Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Re: weight of food or feeding small dogs
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tottime47" <tottime@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Stephany,
>
> For lots of good information on feeding small dogs read the past
> posts here on the site.
>
> I am feeding a 10 lb dog. I have weighed out a chicken thigh...
> took out the bone and took off the skin and it averages out to 4 oz
> of meat. I suspect, unless you can find some really big chickens,
> it's average for all chicken thighs.
>
> I cut it into two pieces lengthwise. One piece has the bone and
skin
> and one piece has nothing but the meat and skin.
>
> A 10 lb dog needs about 4 oz of meat or a little more a day.
>
> I feed him 2x a day.If you dog seems to be gaining weight, cut back
> a little on the skin first and then the meat, if it seems to be
> getting to skinny add more meat, not bone or skin...........
>
> I decide skinny or fat by looking at my dogs and feeling for the
> ribs and the backbone.
>
> No, the bone doesn't count as meat....80% meat, 10%bone and 10%
offal.
>
> I would guess that a chicken leg is probably 50% bone and skin,
both
> are important but not enough meat, unless you get some really
chubby
> chickens, lol.
>
> Carol, Charkee & Moli
>
Hi, Carol could you be a little more specific for me? I don't
understand what you do to the drumstick, exactly. My dogs are to be
eating a little over 6 oz a day going by the 2% ration and I'd like
to keep feeding them twice a day.

Silvina and the pugs

Messages in this topic (4)
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11a. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

So,my suggestion is, try feed it and see if your dog can handle
it.And I try avoid pieces that is smaller than my dog muzzel to feed
like pork chop bone which I cut off all the time.
>
> I am not sure how small your neck bone is,but judge if your dog
more likely swallow hole due the size is smaller than mouth.Try avoid
tiny bones;good example is.. already cutted 1inch sized ox tail for
soup making. I would not feed that small bones.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> yassy

Yes, you've helped, Yassy. The bones are small but since they are not
hard like a cow's I may give them to the pit with some meat. He
crunches his bones and meat perfectly. I wish ALL my dogs did it his
way. I have to test with the smaller dogs. I think one of them can
eat the pork neck but the other is a gulper. Thanks.

Silvina and the pugs

Messages in this topic (11)
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11b. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:05 pm ((PDT))

>>>I do have
large dogs, however, I do not feed pork chops or pork necks. I don't like
the bone that is in the chops, <<<

I have a question about this statement - I agree I wouldn't want to feed
pork chop bones either but can you trim the meat off the bone of a pork chop
and feed it to the dogs, I too have dogs.

Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

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Messages in this topic (11)
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11c. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:54 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/15/2007 6:06:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bbryant573@gmail.com writes:

I have a question about this statement - I agree I wouldn't want to feed
pork chop bones either but can you trim the meat off the bone of a pork chop
and feed it to the dogs, I too have dogs.

Brandi,

for large dogs cutting the meat off of pork chops just makes swallowable
sized hunks of meat.. doesn't do much for exercise or teeth cleaning if there is
no work involved in eating it.

IF.. the dogs are tiny.. like yorkies, or chihuahua.. a pork chop off the
bone would probably be a meal, and there would be plenty of chewing and tearing
to clean the teeth.

Pork necks are generally just bone with just the tiniest amount of meat on
them, and often you find them in the grocery store, sliced by that same band saw
that makes the unnaturally sharp edges and heats the bone. I've purchased
whole pork neck bones, they've been life savers when the dogs have had more than
they should of organ meat or just too many days between meals with bones..
but i don't use them often.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (11)
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12a. Re: probiotics or just transition time
Posted by: "Loretta Luja" luja@comcast.net desertwilite
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:24 pm ((PDT))

Cont. from last post.

So does it sound like I am missing something here? Katie is
quiet (not as active as usual) during the day but seems to be
up most of the night stressed. How long should it be before
her poo is normal? Or can it always stay watery with bone
pieces in it? And Tiggie STILL hasn't had a movement yet
(maybe I should give him a squeeze LOL) Just kidding.

Loretta L

>
>

Messages in this topic (20)
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13. vet says Yeay to rawfeeding
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:05 pm ((PDT))

I finally found a vet that says it's good to feed raw. She is a holistic vet and ironically is close to the previous vet we used to use. I have had a hard time convincing my bf, Brian, to feed Nugget raw. He needed the validation of a medical professional and that's why I looked for a holistic vet, among other things (like vaccinations which now scare the hell out of me). While we were there I asked questions I already knew the answers to that I had learned on this website like, "can I give him a quarter chicken - bone and all, what about organs, what about choking, what about the nutrients he needs?" She answered all of these as all of you have on this site and I glared at my bf (but I held my tongue from saying "YOU SEE". I didn't want to totally embarrass him). So Nugget is now on total raw (going on the 4th day). Now I have to start working on convincing him to let me feed him RMBs. I need to take baby steps with him, the bf, not Nugget. We will be starting a new
protein soon but I'm waiting for a little while longer for the organs.
The lump on his back was just a fat deposit. Whew, what a relief. .

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

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Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. Re: guilt and anger
Posted by: "Ivette Casiano" ivettecasiano@yahoo.com ivettecasiano
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:46 pm ((PDT))

<<I think we do the best we can with the knowledge we have. I always bought
the best kibble for my dogs that I could afford at the time. It might not
have been the best for my dogs but it was the best that I could do at that
time. Margie>>

Well said, Margie. All of us in this group are animal lovers concerned with the health of our pets. We always want the best and do the best we can. It's like children, we do the best parenting we know how at the time and when we learn a better way, adapt. I hope it's not too late for my dog who is 7 but from what I've read here, it's never too late. We can't kick ourselves for past mistakes, just move on to a better way now.

Ivette Casiano
"Live for today, plan for tomorrow"

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Messages in this topic (9)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11913

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. info
From: scarebetty

2a. Good source for Omega 3 and Glucosamine?
From: salinastarroute
2b. Re: Good source for Omega 3 and Glucosamine?
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: feeding beef
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: probiotics or just transition time
From: Loretta Luja

5a. lamb neck bones
From: Sue
5b. Re: lamb neck bones
From: ginny wilken
5c. Re: lamb neck bones
From: Jen

6. Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....
From: JOHN PFAFF

7a. Re: probiotics
From: Sonja
7b. Re: probiotics
From: Felicia Kost

8. Re: introducing beef
From: Michael Moore

9.1. veggies
From: schottscrazyzoo
9.2. Re: veggies
From: Nathalie Poulin
9.3. Re: veggies
From: Andrea
9.4. Re: veggies
From: tottime47

10a. raw and sick
From: barkalot62
10b. Re: raw and sick
From: Andrea

11. adding fish to diet.........
From: mgn_moore

12a. Re: RAW Feeding and stools
From: tottime47

13a. Re: Just started feeding raw
From: Morledzep@aol.com

14. how can i entice my dog to eat organs?
From: deep_ocean_of_sorrow

15a. Re: whole chicken tonight??
From: sillypoodle2003

16a. Re: weight of food or feeding small dogs
From: tottime47

17a. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
From: blechatlb@aol.com

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1. info
Posted by: "scarebetty" scarebetty@yahoo.com scarebetty
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:59 am ((PDT))

I am looking for some clear, concise info to give the new owners of my
puppies. I have "Work Wonders" and "Raw Meaty Bones" by Tom Lonsdale,
but I dont think that the info in either of those books is quite what
I am looking for. I would like something that is easy to understand
from the point of view of a new puppy owner and new to feeding raw
meaty bones. I am going to suggest the books and the websites, along
with info on joining this group. I can type up some info, but I am
pretty new at this raw feeding and am still unsure of myself when I am
feeding my pups. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Betty

Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Good source for Omega 3 and Glucosamine?
Posted by: "salinastarroute" rbee29@gmail.com salinastarroute
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:24 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

Since feeding raw began 3 weeks ago I feel like the dog's coats have
been getting a little dry. They have so far turned their nose up at
fish so is their another alternative to getting them the Omega 3's?
Also what is the best raw source for glucosamine?
Thanks!

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Good source for Omega 3 and Glucosamine?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:49 am ((PDT))

"salinastarroute" <rbee29@...> wrote:
> Since feeding raw began 3 weeks ago I feel like the dog's coats have
> been getting a little dry.
*****
Fish is not generally an adequate answer. What all have you been
feeding them? Any other new events in their lives to take into account?

is their another alternative to getting them the Omega 3's?
*****
You would do better giving them fish body oil or salmon oils
caps/liquid unless you can rely on grassfed livestock and freerange
poultry. It is entirely possible to deliver appropriate amounts of O3
via diet, but you have to feed the right foods.

The fish that provide good levels of dietary O3 are salmon, trout,
sardines, herring, mackerel and anchovy. Other fish can offer high
quality protein variety but shouldn't be relied on for O3 support.

> Also what is the best raw source for glucosamine?
*****
Therapeutic doses would best come from a supplement; otherwise, all
joints and other body parts containing cartilage offer naturally
occurring chondroitin and glucosamine.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: feeding beef
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:39 am ((PDT))

"Becky Brooks (Marsh)" <kidcreations1@...> wrote:
>
> We have been feeding our dogs raw for about 2 months and would like to
> introduce beef. What would be a good, relatively inexpensive beef to
> start out with?
*****
Follow the sales! You never know what will turn up cheap.

Around here--retail--chuck roasts are often on sale for not so much
over a dollar a pound; brisket is sometimes inexpensive; sometimes--to
get beef protein into the dog--ground beef may be a reasonable choice.

If you have access to a meat wholesaler, you may have access to cheap
beef: here in Sacramento a local wholesaler recently blew out several
cases of "expired" beef for .50/lb. And beef heart is usually a good
bet for high quality, inexpensive beef.

With beef, I'll feed anything boneless as long as it's cheap.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: probiotics or just transition time
Posted by: "Loretta Luja" luja@comcast.net desertwilite
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:41 am ((PDT))

>
> @How long have you been feeding raw, how long have you been feeding
> chicken and what sort of chicken meals are you feeding? How much do
> you feed of what? What sort of dogs are you feeding?
>
> Details, we need details!
>

,___About 2 weeks ago, before I started anything raw,
both dogs (8 year Afghan-60lb, + 14 month Afghan-40lb)
had diarrhea and some vomiting (2 days of this which is rare)
so they fasted a day and went back to eating their ki**le. Now
I have been interested in feeding raw and first read about the
pre made ground stuff with veggies.Way too expensive and
my dogs don't really like veggies so why should I feed it? I was
still looking for answers. I found this forum about the time I was
throwing in a chicken wing(or 2)just to "see what would happen". I was
still feeding ki**le at night and wings in the morning. OK so I see
that wasn't the smartest thing to do after reading a few posts. The
older dog threw up a section of bone but all else seemed well. My
younger one had erratic poo- sometimes formed and sometimes
runny with pieces of bone.
Now starting Sunday, they were cut off ki**le and fed quarter
chickens once a day. I watch them eat and both of them take
their time crunching and chewing. Katie (youngest) has been
waking up several times a night and seems very uncomfortable:
standing up and leaning on the wall in her crate and panting.
So Monday night she had watery/with bone fragment poo on
the floor and last night she was taken outside and didn't go
until this morning when her poo was watery with a little solid
(also bone fragments) Tiggie (older dog) hasn't pood since Monday
so I'm not sure about him yet-he is acting normal (couch potato)
Katie's poo is sooooooo rank too. Is this normal? Is there anything
I could do to make the transition more comfortable? They both
seem to enjoy eating their new diet but this night time is really
concerning us.

Loretta L

Messages in this topic (19)
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5a. lamb neck bones
Posted by: "Sue" fordogs@ptd.net agiledogs2000
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:41 am ((PDT))

Thanks for your responses. Another thing I want to question about
theses necks is that they didn't look like what I expected. First off,
they had hardly any meat on them and secondly they looked more like
spine and rib bones. Since I've never gotten these before I didn't
know what the bones looked like in the neck. It was a lot more bone
than I felt there should be so I gave each dog a half of a boneless
chicken breast along with a small piece of liver and a tripe chunk. I
had gotten the necks along with a bunch of other meat from Top Quality
Dog Food from Maryland, I guess next time I'll know what kind of
questions to ask. And Laurie, my dogs are between 50 and 60 lbs so
they're certainly not small, I guess with more time they'll do better
with larger bones.
Sue & the Aussies

Messages in this topic (14)
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5b. Re: lamb neck bones
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:07 pm ((PDT))

On Aug 15, 2007, at 11:24 AM, Sue wrote:

> ..First off,
> they had hardly any meat on them and secondly they looked more like
> spine and rib bones. Since I've never gotten these before I didn't
> know what the bones looked like in the neck.

Well, necks are always gonna be bony, but in our neck of the woods
the processors sometimes throw in the portion of the backbone trimmed
from the breast end of the chicken. These look like straight bony
sticks, with perhaps a tiny strip of skin on one side, and little
protrusions where the ribs were cut through. Probably no worse, but
certainly no better than necks themselves. You done good adding meat!

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
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5c. Re: lamb neck bones
Posted by: "Jen" jboydmorin@gmail.com choirgirl_21
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:09 pm ((PDT))

Hi Sue,

I order most of my meat from Peter. He is really great, if you are
unsure about what you got from him, do ask him. He's really
knowledgeable about raw feeding and willing to help. Aside from that,
I'd recommend getting the whole lamb necks he sells rather than the
bones. At $1.35/lb they're my absolute favorite cut to feed. It's
the entire neck bone wrapped in meat and surrounded by a layer of fat.
For my dogs it's the perfect meat:bone ratio - they have the best
stool after eating those.

The necks are about 3 lbs each and it takes my dogs about an hour to
eat one.

FYI, he's sometimes low on those so you may have to ask ahead.

Jen

Messages in this topic (14)
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6. Re: rawfeeding wild rabbit and squirrel....
Posted by: "JOHN PFAFF" johnpfaff@comcast.net rawfeednewbie
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:47 am ((PDT))

....will fresh rabbit and squirrel pose a danger to my rott pup? I intend to thoroughly freeze the meat beforehand to kill parasites. Any comments will be appreciated.
John. :)
JOHN PFAFF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: probiotics
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:00 pm ((PDT))

I've used the entire Nzymes line with great success to help lessen her reactions to kibble (when she was eating kibble.....). The probiotics are what they call "BacPak Plus". www.nzymes.com

I've also heard good things about Nature's Farmacy. http://www.naturesfarmacy.com/catalog.pdf

I have to note, that since my dog has been on raw, she has not needed any supplements....this was a HUGE step in her life considering she was truly dependent on them!

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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7b. Re: probiotics
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE: SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

I to have used the entire Nzymes line with great success, but no longer since raw. Also the Biopet company is very helpful with suggestions!

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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8. Re: introducing beef
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:24 pm ((PDT))

>>We have been feeding our dogs raw for about 2 months and would like to introduce beef. What would be a good, relatively inexpensive beef to start out with? So far they eat turkey legs, chicken leg quarters, halved chickens, pork ribs and butt roast, chicken gizzards and hearts, and chicken liver. I'm just not sure what type of beef to buy. thanks!<<

Becky -- beef is usually waaaaay out of my price range. The exception is beef heart, which I can routinely buy at .99/lb. and occasionally at .79/lb. This is normally the only beef my dogs get. Beef heart is, for rawfeeding purposes, a muscle meat, and serves that function in my dogs' diet.
If your budget allows, just about any beef will do. I can (rarely) find a nice roast of some sort that's marked down just before its expiration date, and will grab it. Beyond that, I reserve my doggy food dollars for more affordable things like pork, beef heart as the "staple" beef in their diet, and "splurge" on goat or lamb instead. Just my .02 worth.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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9.1. veggies
Posted by: "schottscrazyzoo" schottscrazyzoo@yahoo.com schottscrazyzoo
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:26 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE;SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!

should i feed veggies juuiced or cut up brown rice and oats or not
someone give me the answer so confused

Messages in this topic (51)
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9.2. Re: veggies
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

You should not feed your dog any veggies at all as
they are not species appropriate, neither should you
feed oats or rice.
Dogs are CARNIVORES and need ONLY big chunks of meat,
some bone and some organs (liver).
Some people give their dog veggies as treats or
leftover table scraps, but it doesn't comprise a huge
portion of their daily meal.
Save yourself the trouble and buy a whole chicken and
feed it to your dog.
What kind of dog(s) do you have have? How much do they
weigh?

Nathalie

--- schottscrazyzoo <schottscrazyzoo@yahoo.com> wrote:

> MODERATORS NOTE;SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!
>
>
> should i feed veggies juuiced or cut up brown rice
> and oats or not
> someone give me the answer so confused
>
>

Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca

Messages in this topic (51)
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9.3. Re: veggies
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

Ooh, ooh, pick me, pick me!

No juicing needed, no veggies needed! No brown rice or other grains
needed either!

Your dog (or cat) is a carnivore, and as such, does not require
veggies or grains. Just raw meaty bones, meat (which includes skin,
fat, cartilage, fur), and organs. Feed according to nature's model
and you can't go wrong.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "schottscrazyzoo"
<schottscrazyzoo@...> wrote:
>
> MODERATORS NOTE;SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!
>
>
> should i feed veggies juuiced or cut up brown rice and oats or not
> someone give me the answer so confused
>

Messages in this topic (51)
________________________________________________________________________

9.4. Re: veggies
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

Please do not feed your dogs any veggies......they
do not need them and they cannot digest them.

If you will take the time to read the last couple of dozen posts
or search on feeding or meats to feed or new feeder, you will
find tons of information on what to feed.......

Hey, just take the time to read todays emails........

Meat,meat & more meat with 10% bone & 10% offal....that all your
dog needs!

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- mrawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "schottscrazyzoo"
<schottscrazyzoo@...> wrote:
>
> MODERATORS NOTE;SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!
>
>
> should i feed veggies juuiced or cut up brown rice and oats or not
> someone give me the answer so confused
>

Messages in this topic (51)
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10a. raw and sick
Posted by: "barkalot62" barkalot62@yahoo.ca barkalot62
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

*** Mod Note: please sign your posts! ***

I started feeding some of my westies and a litter of english bulldog
pups the mountain dog food (raw) two weeks ago. The website is
www.mountaindogfood.com

-does anyone feed this? I now have a ten
month old that is very unhappy, not running around, just plain dull
and not feeling well. She will not eat the raw, kibble or people food
today. She drinks water and throws up. I spoon fed some yogurt into
her but she didn't like it either. If you press her stomach it is not
hard or tender, she doesn't flinch at all. She is not herself at all.
Just plain dah. If they have an impaction from pieces of bone would
the stomach be hard and hurt when you pressed on it. her temperature
is 101.9 Fahrenheit or 38.83 Celsius. Help!!!!

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: raw and sick
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:23 pm ((PDT))

Well, from what I remember, a "normal" temp is 100-102, so I wouldn't
worry about a fever. But, if she isn't holding down water I would take
her to the vet. If she can hold down water, I would fast her for a day
and then give her some boneless skinless chicken breast to start. One
of the bad things about premade ground raw food is that you rarely know
how much of what goes into the mix. If the mix has a lot of ground
bone in it, it would make her constipated at the least.

It would be best to switch the whole group to whole raw foods, starting
the sick girl off very easy when she's up to it. Whole raw is better
for their teeth, cheaper, easier, and you know exactly what they are
eating. Please keep us updated on your little girl's progress.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "barkalot62" <barkalot62@...> wrote:

> She will not eat the raw, kibble or people food today. She drinks
> water and throws up.

Messages in this topic (2)
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11. adding fish to diet.........
Posted by: "mgn_moore" mgn_moore@yahoo.com mgn_moore
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

When I feed fish, it will probably be out of the can, unless I can find
some fresh, what do I mix it with. Say I only feed half a can to my 3
year old boxer, do I need to mix anything with it, or would that be
considered the whole meal?

Megan

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: RAW Feeding and stools
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi Donna,

Skip the liver and cooked turkey.

Give her nothing but chicken for several weeks or until
her stools are normal for at least a week.

An 87 lb Dane should be able to eat a quarter of
a chicken at one meal, a chicken leg seems to small
to me and she could choke on such a little piece at a time.

Better to buy a whole chicken, cut it into 2 pieces and give
her one.

When she's had enough take it up and feed the rest the next meal.

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, <donnad2998@...> wrote:
>
> I just started raw feeding this past weekend. Will
> this affect her stools? I noticed they are loose
> almost runny. I am feeding her chicken legs to start
> she did have liver and loved it. Yesterday she had
> chicken legs and cooked ground turkey 87 pound dane.
Donna DeBerardinis

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: Just started feeding raw
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/15/2007 8:34:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dmillho1@tampabay.rr.com writes:

I haven't seen Blaze eat with such enthusiasm in a long time. I've been
to the local supermarket and have ordered chicken backs with necks. Due
in on Friday - then, we begin for real.

Kathleen,

you're gonna hear this from LOTS of folks.. get ready for the barrage..

cancel your order for the chicken backs and necks.. these are not suitable
parts for any dog, too much bone and the necks are the perfect shape to cause
choking.

Prey model raw feeding is about attempting to feed as close to nature as
possible. All dogs are selectively inbred grey wolves, grey wolves eat prey
animals. Prey animals broken down into easy percentages comes to APPROXIMATELY 10%
edible bone, 10% organ meat, and the rest is MEAT, fat, cartilage, sinew,
skin and MEAT..

you want MEAT with bone in it, you do NOT want BONE with meat on it. And
LOTS of meals will probably end up being completely boneless..

i don't know what "white bones" you were talking about.. i'm suspecting beef
femur, soup bone, knuckle bone, marrow bone (all the same thing), which can
and do break dog's teeth. And are virtually meatless..

go back to the grocery store.. pick up WHOLE chickens.. whack them into
convenient meal sized hunks and feed them to the dogs for a week or two..
Then venture into bigger and better meats, pork, turkey, duck, beef, lamb,
goat, emu.. just to name a few. And don't forget the organs.

Catherine R.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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14. how can i entice my dog to eat organs?
Posted by: "deep_ocean_of_sorrow" deep_ocean_of_sorrow@yahoo.com deep_ocean_of_sorrow
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:22 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE: SIGN YOUR MAILS! LAST WARNING

well for now, we only have beef liver. and when i give him beef liver,
he doesn't eat them! (he only eats the other muscle meats i give him
with the liver.)

i have to cut them up in smaller pieces and then put a bit of (low fat)
milk in to have him eat any. (he likes milk a lot.)

how can i have my dog eat the organs as well? is it because he doesn't
like the smell/taste or something? should i try different organs?

Messages in this topic (1)
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15a. Re: whole chicken tonight??
Posted by: "sillypoodle2003" angels_mom73@hotmail.com sillypoodle2003
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:24 pm ((PDT))

hi megan. i am sure you will hear from others, if you havnt already,
that a whole cornish hen is too small for a boxer. go for a half or
even whole fryer chicken. what he doesnt eat, pick up and feed at the
next meal. personally, my little 22 lb. poodle will eat a whole
cornish hen and still want more. not to mention, i would think that a
full grown boxer would possibly choke on a cornish hen if he tried to
swallow it whole. JMO.
HTH, kelly and zeke, the wonder poodle

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mgn_moore" <mgn_moore@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, I have been reading and taking notes from this group and I think
I
> am ready!! For tonight, I can go by the grocery store and buy a
cornish
> hen and feed it to my boxer, right? I don't have to do anything but
> unwrap it and throw it to her? Just want to make sure before I do
> anything. I am very nervous about the bones!
> Megan....and thank you all so much for dealing with me!
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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16a. Re: weight of food or feeding small dogs
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi Stephany,

For lots of good information on feeding small dogs read the past
posts here on the site.

I am feeding a 10 lb dog. I have weighed out a chicken thigh...
took out the bone and took off the skin and it averages out to 4 oz
of meat. I suspect, unless you can find some really big chickens,
it's average for all chicken thighs.

I cut it into two pieces lengthwise. One piece has the bone and skin
and one piece has nothing but the meat and skin.

A 10 lb dog needs about 4 oz of meat or a little more a day.

I feed him 2x a day.If you dog seems to be gaining weight, cut back
a little on the skin first and then the meat, if it seems to be
getting to skinny add more meat, not bone or skin...........

I decide skinny or fat by looking at my dogs and feeling for the
ribs and the backbone.

No, the bone doesn't count as meat....80% meat, 10%bone and 10% offal.

I would guess that a chicken leg is probably 50% bone and skin, both
are important but not enough meat, unless you get some really chubby
chickens, lol.

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "swilken61" <powrfemme@...> wrote:

> how toconsider the weight of food. concerned about getting the
right amount into my ten pounder.

Does the bone count? I was thinking it is heavier, now I think maybe
the meet is heavier on something like a chicken leg.

thanks,
Stephany

Messages in this topic (3)
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17a. Re: New Here - Looking to start feeding a raw diet to my yorkie.
Posted by: "blechatlb@aol.com" blechatlb@aol.com blechatlb
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:06 pm ((PDT))

The bones are not a problem, they break them up pretty well. The only challenging thing is that, according to the 2-3% of ideal body weight rule, they should technically only be eating about half
of a drumstick a day.
----------------------------------
Susan,

Have you tried chicken drumettes?

TracyB
________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (3)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11912

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. whole chicken tonight??
From: mgn_moore
1b. Re: whole chicken tonight??
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: whole chicken tonight??
From: mgitaville
1d. Re: whole chicken tonight??
From: Giselle
1e. Re: whole chicken tonight??
From: Yasuko herron
1f. Re: whole chicken tonight??
From: Denise Strother
1g. Re: whole chicken tonight??
From: mgn_moore

2. Swift Tribe Questions (lengthy)
From: Ash

3a. Re: guilt and anger
From: chaparraltrail
3b. Re: guilt and anger
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: guilt and anger
From: Marjorie Trebino

4a. Re: feeling anxious
From: michelle_alameda

5. from a fairly new raw feeder in UK
From: Emma Goucher

6a. Re: Leftover Kibble
From: L.Tucker

7a. Re: probiotics
From: Loretta Luja
7b. Re: probiotics
From: Denise Strother
7c. Re: probiotics
From: costrowski75

8. Just started feeding raw
From: Kathleen M. Hunter

9a. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
From: Yasuko herron

10a. weight of food or feeding small dogs
From: swilken61
10b. Re: weight of food or feeding small dogs
From: Goin8@aol.com

11. feeding beef
From: Becky Brooks (Marsh)

12.1. Question
From: Joe Rodriguez

13. Re: [rawfeeding] Re: My dog is gaining weight but doesn't nee
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

14. RAW Feeding and stools
From: donnad2998@yahoo.com

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. whole chicken tonight??
Posted by: "mgn_moore" mgn_moore@yahoo.com mgn_moore
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))

Ok, I have been reading and taking notes from this group and I think I
am ready!! For tonight, I can go by the grocery store and buy a cornish
hen and feed it to my boxer, right? I don't have to do anything but
unwrap it and throw it to her? Just want to make sure before I do
anything. I am very nervous about the bones!
Megan....and thank you all so much for dealing with me!

Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: whole chicken tonight??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:15 am ((PDT))

"mgn_moore" <mgn_moore@...> wrote:
>For tonight, I can go by the grocery store and buy a cornish
> hen and feed it to my boxer, right? I don't have to do anything but
> unwrap it and throw it to her?
*****
Well, it probably should be thawed out for her maiden voyage, and if
there's a bag of giblets stuffed inside it, you should probably
remove it.

The game hens I am familiar with weigh about 18-22oz; assuming your
girl is a "typical" boxer, a whole game hen would be just about
perfect for a day's feeding. If you plan to feed twice a day, two
game hens day would be a bit much. At least at this point in her
career. You might have to open the bird up some so she gets the
idea: some dogs have trouble understanding that raw meat is food.

Just want to make sure before I do
> anything. I am very nervous about the bones!
*****
Cornish game hens are adolescent chickens. "Real" chickens are
processed at 5 to 7 weeks; chickens destined for game hen fame are
processed younger than that. The bones are hardly even bones yet.

Please let us know how it goes.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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1c. Re: whole chicken tonight??
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:21 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mgn_moore" <mgn_moore@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, I have been reading and taking notes from this group and I
think I
> am ready!! For tonight, I can go by the grocery store and buy a
cornish
> hen and feed it to my boxer, right? I don't have to do anything but
> unwrap it and throw it to her? Just want to make sure before I do
> anything. I am very nervous about the bones!
> Megan....and thank you all so much for dealing with me!
>

******Is there a reason for the cornish hen instead of a whole
chicken? Generally the chicken is much cheaper and has far more
meat. For a new dog I would be a bit worried about the amount of
bone in a cornish hen, but more so of a dog gulping it. I have
bullmastiffs and depsite being closer to boxer size I think I fed the
hens only once.....just not sure worth the price.
I personally would suggest the whole chicken and then feed roughly
half or a third depending on how much your dog should be eating and
how big the chicken is.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (7)
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1d. Re: whole chicken tonight??
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:32 am ((PDT))

Hi, uh, Hello!
Is your Boxer full grown?
If he is, even if you are nervous about feeding meat with bones, you
should be feeding a quarter or half chicken, at least.

I usually recommend Cornish Hens to start out only for tiny dogs, like
Yorkies or Chihuahuas especially pups of toy breeds. Cornish hens are
very young chickens, and are usually too small to feed large breeds.

my recommendations:
1) Buy several chickens, cut them in half or quarters.

2)Read the label, make sure they aren't enhanced or injected with salt
or flavored solutions.

3) Bag and freeze all but enough for a few meals, put the rest in the
fridge.

4) At mealtime, toss a large towel or old rug (washable) on the floor
in your dogs eating place, and put a half or quarter chicken on it.

5) Tell him what you usually tell him "Eat your dinner." or "OK, get
it." or whatever, and stand back! Don't hover or stare, go have a seat
while he figures it out.

6) Marvel at the natural wonder of a dog eating what it was born to eat!

If you haven't yet, read the files on the webpage. Follow the links to
the raw feeding help sites posted. Do searches for keywords such as
new, newbie, new to raw, etc. and read up. Read all the messages and
responses posted to the group for the last few days.

TC,
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Ok, I have been reading and taking notes from this group and I think I
> am ready!! For tonight, I can go by the grocery store and buy a cornish
> hen and feed it to my boxer, right? I don't have to do anything but
> unwrap it and throw it to her? Just want to make sure before I do
> anything. I am very nervous about the bones!
> Megan....and thank you all so much for dealing with me!
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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1e. Re: whole chicken tonight??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:35 am ((PDT))

>I am very nervous about the bones!

Hi.Don't worry about bones. Chicken bones are quite soft.I have never fed Cornish hen but i suppose it is soft bone as well.

I have fed pheasant,Turkey other than Chicken but I had no problems with bone.

Pheasant bone seemed soft as well and Turkey bone is..maybe bit harder than chicken but not terribly hard like Beef Ribs for example.

My dog is Corgi,about 30lb,but she ate all bones without any problems so don't worry.

Since the raw has different texture and bland flavor compare to kibble so,your dog may and may not eat the food thatr is served but be patient and,your dog gets to enjoy the meal as time passes.

Good luck

yassy

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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1f. Re: whole chicken tonight??
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:35 am ((PDT))

Megan,
That would be fine for her. If you want to save a little money, just
get a chicken and halve or quarter it depending on it's size. Relax
about the bones. I have Chihuahuas (3.5 and 5 lbs) and a Pit Bull
(45lbs), when I feed whole chickens I cut down the middle with
kitchen shears and open it up (this might be good to do for yours in
the beginning). I can feed them whole, but cutting it open helps the
little guys. If left whole they tend to eat just wings, legs and/or
thighs because the ends of the wings and legs are an easy starting
place for smaller mouths, so this gives them more options on where
to start. I just let the Chi's eat and when they finish, I let the
Pit eat her fill. Usually they will finish a 1.5 to 2 lber. If there
is any left, they get it later. The Chi's eat all but the biggest
leg and thigh bones in larger birds and they even eat the cartilage
off of those. They are the same with ducks. The 5lber can even eat
some ribs in smaller lamb breasts. Hope this makes you less nervous,
that can hinder your dogs open-ness to this new experience. Denise

For tonight, I can go by the grocery store and buy a cornish hen and
feed it to my boxer, right? I don't have to do anything but unwrap
it and throw it to her? Just want to make sure before I do
anything. I am very nervous about the bones! Megan....and thank you
all so much for dealing with me!

Messages in this topic (7)
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1g. Re: whole chicken tonight??
Posted by: "mgn_moore" mgn_moore@yahoo.com mgn_moore
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:56 am ((PDT))

Hello, and yes, she is almost 3 years old. She is approximately 60
pounds.

Megan
Is your Boxer full grown?

Messages in this topic (7)
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2. Swift Tribe Questions (lengthy)
Posted by: "Ash" want4rain@yahoo.com want4rain
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:18 am ((PDT))

we have 3 cats, Hunter(m), Shadow(m) and Baby Girl(f). all three are
3yo. Baby Girl has always been small at around 10lbs but Hunter and
Shadow (brothers) have always been a bit on the large size (between 16
to 18lbs). we started them out on Iams kitten and at a year old went
to Iams Indoor Adult. at 2yo we put them on Eukanuba Weight Control.
they were still gaining weight. as i said before, the boys have always
been over weight (could it be those carbs?? *rolls eyes*), Shadow had
the all over chub but Hunter had udders. yes, cow udders. they would
flop around when he ran. Hunter has also had gingivitis. we get his
teeth cleaned yearly. we have also recently discovered he has pica (or
IS pica???). licking, chewing, eating non food things, OCD....

a few months ago i started researching different diets. it started out
with looking for the real difference between kibble and canned wet
food. lets just say that even before i got to the "I Hate Commercial
Pet Food" pages, i had decided it was pretty gross stuff.

it took a while but i finally found a homemade cooked diet i was
satisfied with. about that time our dog Mister (male lab mix) started
exploding at night. come to find out our vet wanted him on a low
residue diet. we tried that for abotu a month when i saw the flaws.
aside from whats appropriate for a CAT CARNIVORE to eat... it was a
pain to make, it was NOT addressing their dental issues. while cutting
out grains helped with Mister AND the cats (even in the first month of
that we were seeing an amazing difference in their energy levels and
coats!!) it wasnt quite enough.

i was very reluctant to go with a raw diet because i have a 18mo son
and a very flaky (in the endearing way) 8yo daughter. my concerns for
cleanliness were pretty big!! ive never been much of a germaphobe,
you'd never find me with stock in Lysol, thats for sure. :)

well lets just say my laziness won out. :D they are now on a raw meat
and bones and offal diet.

Mister gets a whole 4lb chicken on mondays. when he is finished with
it, if i catch him first he brings the rest of the chicken to me. if i
dont, i gotta go dig it up. *sigh*
he gets the remainder the next day which is usually 2/5ths of the
chicken along with his chicken liver(2 or 3) on tuesdays.
wednesdays is usually fish day. he gets a whole talapia/salmon with
the spines cut off (got tired of stabbing myself when reaching in the
freezer YUCK!!) and a handful of fresh sardines.know where i can get
ungutted fish?? any issue with ungutted fish?? im sure i can catch my
own at our local lake. my grandpa lives on it.
thursdays is whatever beef is on sale at the local market down the
road. they have great prices. he has never been able to eat a beef
bone. sometimes its tongue, heart or muscle/bones.
fridays is chicken again. the whole thing, same deal as mondays.
saturday is 2nd part of chicken from friday along with chicken liver.
(2 or 3 livers)
sunday is usually turkey breast and a few chicken necks. (about 1.5lbs)

eggs are a snack through out the week. he probably eats a whole
dozen?? sometimes cooked, soemtimes raw. depends on what i am doing,
if i cooked some for me we will use to egg for training. he also gets
freeze dried beef liver for training treats and kongs with peanut
butter in it.

he also has Jeffrey Clean Up Duty. anythign from a few peas/carrots
to some cheerios or chex. not anything i would say is enough to "be a
part of his diet" if you know what i mean.

every 2 weeks or so i fast him one of the first chicken day and then
give him the whole chicken the next day. he usually eats the whole
thing on those days.

the cats get chicken... chicken and more chicken. ive fed beef, barfed
it up, ive fed turkey, barfed it up, corning game hens, barfed it up.
they hold down fish and chicken. im not exactly sure who has the
problem with everythign else because they make it a point to NOT in
front of me. :)

what ive done with them so far is smash up a whole chicken with a
hammer and tupperware up 3 days of food for all 3 cats. i feed 3 days
of chicken to 1 day of fish. also, im not smashing the bones up much,
just enough to give them the edge over the thicker bones.

Hunter will not eat organs or clam (its high in taurine raw). ive
tried partially cooking it, fully cooking it, letting it go a little
rancid, as fresh as i can, different temps..... no go. as i said
before, he is pica (has pica??). is this a symptom of that?? ive tried
putting small chunks of it tucked in the sardines.... no go.

Shadow and Baby Girl will eat heart and clams but Shadow will not eat
liver (in any of the above prepared ways) and none of the cats will
eat eggs or anythign with a supplement in it. not even FISH with a
supplement in it. OH and i forgot, i dont typically feed them pork but
Mister gets pork feed and necks sometimes and the cats puke that up too.

they all eat quite the collection in bugs. we make a point to let in
moths and beetles of which dont last long.

so on to the questions.

anythign obviously wrong with Misters diet?? he has allergies of some
sort but we are working through that right now. he was exclusively on
chicken for a while but still had the allergies. we are thinking its
either hormonal (not fixed yet) or environmental. i use thymol to
clean some things up here and that *may* be it. or that he is battling
fleas. we tried apple cider vinegar and rosemary but i think im going
to go with the "other stuff" to see if thats it. a healthy animal has
a few but maybe a few is too many for him.

as for the cats.... one would think that turkey and the cornish game
hens would be close enough to chicken to be fine with it. im not sure
what to do abotu this. will putting Hunter on OCD meds help with his
refusal to eat organ meats? we have tried all of the non invasive
methods to treat his pica but we have had very little effect. he eats
our wooden cabinets, pencils, Cailyns Polly Pockets clothes, strings,
cords... ive tried bitter apple, more fiber... he seems quite
insistent to not eat any meat other than muscle and bone.

i feel their diet is too narrow but im unsure what to do about it. i
guess i could pinpoint WHO is puking it up by containing them after
eating but its sometimes hours after eating when they start puking and
frankly, im not sure if my carpeting can take much more abuse from them.

they DO hold down mice. i knwo this because they all are pretty darned
good mouse hunters!! is that an option? feeder mice and chicks?? i
think i would have a hard time with it emotionally but if parasites
arent an issue, im sure i would get over it.

any advice would be appreciated. :)

-ashley

Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: guilt and anger
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@> wrote:
> > We do the best we can, with the knowledge we have at the time.
> *****
> But if we do not learn from our mistakes we are doomed to repeat
them.
> Chris O
>

I agree...and that is consistent with what I have said in many of my
posts. But once we *do* learn, it is best focus on doing what is right
in the present, and for the future, so we can make positive changes.
It is counter-productive to berate ourselves (or others) for mistakes
of the past, when those mistakes have been acknowledged and corrected
to the best of our abilities, and we are currently moving in the right
direction.

Wouldn't you agree?

Lori

Messages in this topic (8)
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3b. Re: guilt and anger
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:16 am ((PDT))

"chaparraltrail" <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:
But once we *do* learn, it is best focus on doing what is right
> in the present, and for the future, so we can make positive changes.
> It is counter-productive to berate ourselves (or others) for mistakes
> of the past, when those mistakes have been acknowledged and corrected
> to the best of our abilities, and we are currently moving in the
right
> direction.
>
> Wouldn't you agree?
*****
Of course.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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3c. Re: guilt and anger
Posted by: "Marjorie Trebino" mtrebino39@hotmail.com marjoriettt
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:33 am ((PDT))

I think we do the best we can with the knowledge we have. I always bought
the best kibble for my dogs that I could afford at the time. It might not
have been the best for my dogs but it was the best that I could do at that
time. Margie

Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. Re: feeling anxious
Posted by: "michelle_alameda" michelle_alameda@yahoo.com michelle_alameda
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:20 am ((PDT))

Chris, and everyone else...

Thank you for your help! I feel much better now.

I think I did ok then last night, in addition to the rib and goat
bone, I later gave her some ground chicken. Hopefully that will help
her move all the bone she consumed out.

I will also rethink my use of supplements.

Many thanks,
Michelle Alameda
and Aspen, Remington, and Fajita too

Messages in this topic (7)
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5. from a fairly new raw feeder in UK
Posted by: "Emma Goucher" emmagoucher@hotmail.com passionately_musical
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:23 am ((PDT))

Hi All.

Just wondering if there was anyone out there with info about finding suppliers in UK (we are in Midlands area - Notts).

If there are no specific suppliers, then can anyone give me an idea of what to ask our local butcher for? I kind of asked the other week but he looked confused so I ended up just getting oxtail (which it seems my boys LOVE!). Works out expensive though if I had to get that too often. I thought it may be easier to go to butchers next time with a list!

The 'boys' are 2 Bedlington Terriers - Barney (6 years) & Woody (4 years) so they aren't big dogs, but not small either. They've been getting on well with whole chicken wings, sometimes meatyish bones (sold for making stock I assume, from supermarket), oxtail and occasionally (about once a fortnight) liver/kidney/heart type stuff

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Thanks
Emma, Barney & Woody
_________________________________________________________________
100�s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music
https://www.musicmashup.co.uk/index.html

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6a. Re: Leftover Kibble
Posted by: "L.Tucker" ltucker@sympatico.ca love_rescue_dogs
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:43 am ((PDT))

[ Now the real question: What on earth do I do with the ~10 lbs of
expensive
> kibble I have left?]

Hi Elizabeth:

Please, please do donate your kibble to your local SPCA or Humane
Society. I volunteer at our local OSPCA and they rely HEAVILY on
donations of food. A lot of the kibble donated is poor quality and
even past its due date. Yours will be much appreciated. Don't worry
if the bag is open either.

Leanne Tucker

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7a. Re: probiotics
Posted by: "Loretta Luja" luja@comcast.net desertwilite
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT))

My "new to raw" dogs are not digesting even chicken well, so
I am interested in trying probiotics. How do I find a quality
grade one?

Loretta L
>
>
>
> @The way to provide meaningful billions of probiotics is to use a
> quality, human grade probiotic.
> Chris O
>

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7b. Re: probiotics
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:33 am ((PDT))

Health food stores. Denise

My "new to raw" dogs are not digesting even chicken well, so I am
interested in trying probiotics. How do I find a quality grade one?

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7c. Re: probiotics
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

Loretta Luja <luja@...> wrote:
>
> My "new to raw" dogs are not digesting even chicken well, so
> I am interested in trying probiotics. How do I find a quality
> grade one?
*****
How long have you been feeding raw, how long have you been feeding
chicken and what sort of chicken meals are you feeding? How much do
you feed of what? What sort of dogs are you feeding?

Details, we need details!

Offhand, I think your first job is to evaluate the menu and make
adjustments there. It's not likely that ALL your dogs are
experiencing the same biota imbalance, so it's probably somethin'
else that's fussing them.

If it somehow turns out that none of your dogs can handle chicken,
don't feed it. It's not mandatory and IMO choosing a different meat
protein is more appropriate than trying to make supplemental
adjustments.

Probiotics are generally used when the natural levels of good biota
have been reduced by antibiotics or significant digestive distress.
Probably you don't want probiotics. Probably you want--if you find
you need something after evaluating the menu--digestive enzymes.

Can you give us a rundown of what's up?
Chris O

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8. Just started feeding raw
Posted by: "Kathleen M. Hunter" dmillho1@tampabay.rr.com dmillho1
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:33 am ((PDT))

Hi. After an animal communicator told me my Cardigan Corgi, Blaze,
wanted real meat and real bones to chew - he won't chew the real white
bones I got from a reputable store any more - I told my husband we are
switching to raw. I'd explored this earlier, but my husband was
reluctant and it seemed a lot of trouble - reading about the recipes
people used, etc. This time, I read it differently, I guess.

Last night, I bought raw chicken drumsticks and tossed all 5 to both
dogs. Blaze went to town! He demolished 3 of them in a flash. Raider was
not convinced until I picked up the remaining two legs to save them for
him. Then, he wanted them and snarked them right down.

I haven't seen Blaze eat with such enthusiasm in a long time. I've been
to the local supermarket and have ordered chicken backs with necks. Due
in on Friday - then, we begin for real.

Kathleen

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9a. Re: the trouble w/pork bones
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:36 am ((PDT))

> I got some pork neck and they are the small ones. Are these the kind you gave to your >Corgi and he ate them with no problem?

Hi. I try to get pices bigger than muzzel.The one I got probably bone width(length?) was about 4-5 inches,weigh around .. 5-8oz( 8oz=half pound)

I bought them at shoppers.

If the Neck I got pull out was boney side and less meat on it,I added boneless meat she can handle well like chicken,pork,Beef by the time I introduce pork.

Half pound is 80-90% of her daily intake,so, on Neck days,now and then,she got more than daily intake but,it is better than getting her constipated so,I was ok with it.

Not all dogs have same ability to eat bone so,you may want to test it if your dog can eat it or not.If your dog had problems with bones(cannot get crack bones no matter how long you wait)then,you may want to take the bone away and toss it.

If your dog did not eat bone and if you wanted to give bone the dog can eat to compensate for that,you can give chicken feet. Even if it is frozen,it seems my dog can eat it and actually enjoy cool snack during this season.Shereally loves chicken feeet.

If you want to have it ready for back-up plan,you can thaw in the fridge.

it defrost pretty quick.

Personally,I thought pork bone seemed easy bone for my dog at least.She had long time for Beef neck like 90 minutes but pork,it did not take that much.

So,my suggestion is, try feed it and see if your dog can handle it.And I try avoid pieces that is smaller than my dog muzzel to feed like pork chop bone which I cut off all the time.

I am not sure how small your neck bone is,but judge if your dog more likely swallow hole due the size is smaller than mouth.Try avoid tiny bones;good example is.. already cutted 1inch sized ox tail for soup making. I would not feed that small bones.

Hope this helps.

yassy

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

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10a. weight of food or feeding small dogs
Posted by: "swilken61" powrfemme@aol.com swilken61
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:58 am ((PDT))

Hi Everyone,

this may seem like a silly quesions, but I've been wondering how to
consider the weight of food. I am feeding two smallish dogs, I am
mainly concerned about getting the right amount into my ten pounder.
She will eat any amount I give her, so we are concerned about her
gaining weight.

Does the bone count? I was thinking it is heavier, now I think maybe
the meet is heavier on something like a chicken leg. That seems like
way to much for my little girl, althoug the 15 lb girl does fine with
it. I really want my little girl to get the benefit of the chewing, she
has extremely bad teeth and needs it. If I give wings or necks, that is
too bony, right?

Can anyone who is feeding small dogs give me some advice? I am also
feeding a ten lb cat, or attempting to, she is still holding out, so
some of this applies to her also.

thanks,
Stephany

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10b. Re: weight of food or feeding small dogs
Posted by: "Goin8@aol.com" Goin8@aol.com menoebs
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:09 am ((PDT))

I feed till they are done eating and then put the rest away. They get the
rest the next meal. But sometimes they choose to hide it and in the VA heat
thats NOT a good thing to find the next day!

Audrey Johnson

"My Goal in Life is to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am!"

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

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11. feeding beef
Posted by: "Becky Brooks (Marsh)" kidcreations1@yahoo.com kidcreations1
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:57 am ((PDT))

We have been feeding our dogs raw for about 2 months and would like to
introduce beef. What would be a good, relatively inexpensive beef to
start out with? So far they eat turkey legs, chicken leg quarters,
halved chickens, pork ribs and butt roast, chicken gizzards and
hearts, and chicken liver. I'm just not sure what type of beef to
buy. thanks!
Becky

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12.1. Question
Posted by: "Joe Rodriguez" jrod.65@gmail.com PEPITO65
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:57 am ((PDT))

*I am a new member ready to begin a raw (prey) diet. I have one question.
How do you deal with the possibility of a parasitic infection? Specifically
Trichinosis from ingesting raw meat (pork, deer, etc..). I know that
bacteria is handled well by dogs ( e.g. samonella) but what
about parasites? Some parasites are known to survive below freezing temps.
Thanks in Advance.*

*Joe

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13. Re: [rawfeeding] Re: My dog is gaining weight but doesn't nee
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:58 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 8/15/2007 10:04:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
costrowski75 writes:

"temy1102" <tammy.a.jp@tam> wrote:
> Of course, if you have a real chowhound, you're out of luck. My
> doberman will eat her 5 lb. leg of lamb, and then stare at me,
> drooling, while I eat my dinner.
*****
I have chow hounds that do this but it doesn't mean I have to respond.
Eventually they lie quietly by the table, hoping against hope that
someone will upend a plate. But at least they hope quietly.

____

One of my 3 cats often is such a pain when anything involving food that
doesn't pertain to him is happening that I often have to pick him up and dump him
into another room and shut the door in his face.

And yes, this is Dennis The Menace, the one that was thin and not thriving
before he started eating raw, and has now gained so much weight that he is
being restricted to barely 2% of his 10 lb weight daily. So I agree he's pitiful
with only that tiny piece of meat, but I'm not going to put up with his
wailing and trying to climb up on the table! (Actually, usually he's trying to
hook a claw into something eatable and pull it OFF the table.)

I do have to say that he is nowhere near as consistently unbearable at the
possibility of food now as he was before he was eating species-appropriate
food, however. :)

Lynda

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14. RAW Feeding and stools
Posted by: "donnad2998@yahoo.com" donnad2998@yahoo.com donnad2998
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:59 am ((PDT))

I just started raw feeding this past weekend. Will
this affect her stools? I noticed they are loose
almost runny. I am feeding her chicken legs to start
she did have liver and loved it. Yesterday she had
chicken legs and cooked ground turkey, it was left
over from our dinner. 87 pound dane.
Thank you,
Donna DeBerardinis

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