Feed Pets Raw Food: Nov 29, 2007

Thursday, November 29, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12332

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
From: Yasuko herron

2a. Re: High Volume Treats
From: gevan1a
2b. Re: High Volume Treats
From: Belinda van de Loo

3a. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
From: recyclerat@aol.com
3b. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
From: recyclerat@aol.com
3c. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
From: Giselle
3d. will too much bone cause the runs?
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: Starving to death...
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Starving to death...
From: carnesbill
4c. Re: Starving to death...
From: Belinda van de Loo

5.1. Green Tripe
From: mrsmenk
5.2. Re: Golden
From: Marjet Wolbertus

6a. Re: Dinky
From: Cathy
6b. Re: Dinky
From: Marjet Wolbertus

7a. Bad Pork??
From: Tracy
7b. Re: Bad Pork??
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Re: hookworms??
From: Michelle R

9. Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
From: mariola9000

10a. Hookworms?? UPDATE
From: Heidi
10b. Re: Hookworms?? UPDATE
From: Casey Post

11a. Question about Live animal markets (sanitary?)
From: Elie
11b. Re: Question about Live animal markets (sanitary?)
From: cypressbunny

12a. Re: Vomiting after meals
From: sphynxlover2
12b. Re: Vomiting after meals
From: sphynxlover2
12c. Re: Vomiting after meals
From: cypressbunny

Messages
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1a. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:05 pm ((PST))

> I thought that it was advised to mix pureed raw veggies with the raw meat.

HI,Kathleen. Answer is Nooooo!!

There are one type of rawfeeding that feed bony parts like chicken wing,back,neck etc etc along with pureed veg,yogurt,cottage cheese. There are some people feeding Raw meaty bone without veggies but along with Yogurt,cottage cheese.

But such bony parts are not only end up costing more than buying a whole bird but also diet itself has way too much calcium from bone and not enough other nutrients thatt dog could get from meat. Also,such bony part is easy to encouraging the dog to swallow whole which is not good. I think people gives Yogurt for probiotic property mainly but to get the yogurt have enough effect as probiotic,you probably need to give tonz of yogurt and not many dog torelate diary very well in large amount. I see no point to feed it as part of menu.

And cottage cheese is another popular item but way too high in sodium. I rather not to give such high sodium item. In one of the book that i have read,sour cream was recommended,but it is way too much fat in small amount and again,dairy. I see no point feeding it.

Then, there is another way of feeding; feeding as close to nature as possible and feed rawmeat,organ,bone,and no veg,no fruit,no Yogurt,no cottage cheese.and most try to feed as whole as possible if one can feed from various kinds of animals and varous parts of animals.

There are pre-made raw madallion,pre-ground products,and many supplements out there some people using to dogs.

I even heard of vegetarian feeding for dogs;feeding Tofu(altanative choice of protin) with other veg.

But dogs are not like us and they cannot digest veg as much as they can for raw meat,and I believe their diet should be largely based on meat and then,some bone,little of organs.

Veg has cell wall that dog cannot break on their own,so,people puree the veg for feeing.
If the dog was uterizing whatever veg we feed,then,it will be good thing to feed and good for them,but in reality,it isn't.

Especially,home-made feeding people feed carb largely as big as 40% of diet.Mostly grain with some of fiber like sweet potato or pumpkin etc along with veg like broccoli and some meat,bit of organ.

Veg/fruit/grain are carb and dog does not need carb.Hard to digest,other than it being not appropriate food item for them. They are not human,so,what is good for us is not necessary be good for them,and what they like eating is not necessary be good for them.
You can read more about veg if you search thearchive. This topic comes up at least once a month. the popular topic:-PSo,you can learn more by reading up other posts in the past..

Oh,the veg has high in Vitamin A too and since you feed organ that is having vitamin A also,you need to watch out how much A you are feeding to dogs. Too much is toxic.Vitamin A is stored in body if not used and unlike Vitamin B or C it is not going to flash out in urine so,need to eye on it. If you feed smidge of organs daily without veg,then,safe but if with veg,I think you need to eye on it becausesweet potato or pumpkin or other veg are really high in vitamin A.

>I've been giving my dog a mixture of raw meat (ground meat,chicken backs, etc.) with pureed raw veggies (usually carrots,broccoli, celery), and flaxseed oil, nutritional yeast, and sometimes raw egg.

Do you feed hunk of meat not ground?? Feeding hunk of meat gives mental/physical workout in meal time and it is better than feeding ground meat.and,your feeding item seems bit too bony.Why not getting awhole bird and cut-up to your dog's portion and feed? It means,the wing should be fed still attached to breast part etc.That is better way of feeding than feeding bony parts alone.IF you had already bought tonz of bony partsandno use for it if you change your feeding way,then,you still can use it but add more meat to it.Like chicken breast to bony parts. Bone intake should be roughly around 10%.It depends on each dog,but bone should not be big number of % in diet.

and.. one note of caution.

Carrots mostly being sugar and this is one of those item that diabetic dog cannot eat since most of nutrient is sugar.

Broccoli is having anti-cancer property,and many people seem to feed it among home-made feeding people. However,broccoli has function that surpress thyroid function if fed too often.

Cerely interfere calcium absorption if fed too much.

Flaxseed oil is plant-base oil so, dog cannot uterize it well.

Nutritional yeast; mainly good for giving Vitamin B,but meat has good amount of Vitamin B already. Your dog's diet is lack of Vitamin B??

Egg is good.My dog loves Egg.

Keep reading lists,and good luck,

yassy

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Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: High Volume Treats
Posted by: "gevan1a" gevans@sycomtech.com gevan1a
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:39 pm ((PST))

You might try the dehydrated all-meat or tripe nuggets at

www.animalfood.com. I got a sample at a performance event and they
went over really well.

-George

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Treulich, Sarah" <sarah@...> wrote:
>
> Hello. I just switched to raw feeding and I'm wondering about what to
> use for treats. I clicker train my dogs and that means using lots of
> treats, maybe 50 per session with 6 short sessions a day. When I was
> feeding kibble I simply used the kibble as treats, mixed with some
> hotdog or turkey. Now I can't do that. I'm looking for something
about
> the size of a fingernail, or smaller. I was considering using the
> hotdogs and turkey pieces by themselves. Any suggestions?
>
>
>
> Sarah and Man, Lady and Eros

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: High Volume Treats
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com belindavandeloo
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:20 pm ((PST))

I bought a dehydrator pretty cheaply on the internet (eBay) and now I
dehydrate liver (in the garage!) and other meats in it for treats. You
can partially freeze the meat and then cut to small sizes for
dehydration. It takes about 8-12 hours to dehydrate (overnight)and you
have natural, healthy treats for your dogs. It can't get any easier
and healthier than this!
Blessings,
Belinda and "Honey" from Holland

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:39 pm ((PST))

gotcha..i will try this!

i've never given him tripe, but i've seen in the store..and, GAG. i was
willing to give it a shot if it was super fatty and easily digested..but if
its not - then i'd just rather not mess with that all together.

how many lbs can i feed him per day? (in tiny meals of ckn only).

thanks for your help!

.heather.

**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
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Messages in this topic (13)
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3b. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:40 pm ((PST))

Thanks Bill - i'm in no hurry! i'd be perfectly content to feed only
chicken forever!

i will just feed the chicken for a while - i'm all ears for advice.

question i just thought of...i've been feeding whole chickens, quartered -
and i havent been removing anything..should i be removing the liver or
something?

.heather.

probably is but I don't see a pressing reason to. You have been
seeing progress for a couple of days and now you want to do
something different. When you are seeing progress keep doing
exactly what you have been doing, don't be in a hurry to change
thing.

Bill Carnes

**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
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Messages in this topic (13)
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3c. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:05 pm ((PST))

Hi, Heather!
You don't wanna buy the tripe in the grocery stores or
markets, anyway. That stuff is washed and scalded and bleached, no good for
dogs!

If you think the sanitized people version of tripe is GAG, then never mind
the doggie version. ^_^

I would start with a conservative average amount of what you have been
feeding, divided into 3 meals a day. Then, add a meal every few days,
temporarily decreasing the amounts at the established meals. Increase the
number of meals and the amount you feed at each meal very gradually.

If you are feeding supermarket chicken, then there is only a little bit of
the liver adhering to the back - that shouldn't bother him. The whole liver,
heart and gizzard, and often the neck, too, is in a paper sack inside the
chicken. Just toss these in the freezer for later feeding.

TC
Giselle

On Nov 29, 2007 7:27 PM, <recyclerat@aol.com> wrote:

>
> gotcha..i will try this!
>
> i've never given him tripe, but i've seen in the store..and, GAG. i was
> willing to give it a shot if it was super fatty and easily digested..but
> if
> its not - then i'd just rather not mess with that all together.
>
> how many lbs can i feed him per day? (in tiny meals of ckn only).
>

> question i just thought of...i've been feeding whole chickens, quartered -
>
> and i havent been removing anything..should i be removing the liver or
> something?
>
> thanks for your help!
>
> .heather.
>

>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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3d. will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:20 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, recyclerat@... wrote:
>
> question i just thought of...i've been feeding whole
> chickens, quartered -
> and i havent been removing anything..should i be removing
> the liver or something?

There is a bag inside that contains "giblets". Another word
for "insides". I would remove that bag and freeze it to feed a
month or two down the road.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (13)
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4a. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:50 pm ((PST))

"jackie" <jackiehale1@...> wrote:
They look great,
> but they act like they are starving to death! I mean, to the point
of
> stealing things off the counters, out of the trash, etc.
*****
If you are not feeding big, complicated and engrossing body parts at
least occasionally, you should give them a try. The "problem" with raw
food is you get the calories and bone and nutrition into the dog
without a whole lot of food. So while your dogs are eating the "right"
amount for good weight and endurance etc., they are not getting full.
Full--satiety--is a great feeling. Depending on the size of your dogs,
there are a number of easy ways to feed Big Food from time to time.

What have you been feeding to what size dogs?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:20 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jackie" <jackiehale1@...> wrote:
>
> I have been feeding my dogs raw since May this year. They
> look great,
> but they act like they are starving to death!

Judge by how they look, not by how they act. Any dog that doesn't
steal food off the counters or trash cans or anywhere else is either
very well trained or sick.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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4c. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com belindavandeloo
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:20 pm ((PST))

Hi Jackie,
I can identify with the 'acting like they are starving' routine
because I have 3 small dogs who have turned into animals since
switching to raw.
I have 2 boys (13 and 4) and 1 girl (puppy). The puppy is the only
one who acts acceptable but that's most likely because she's still
rather submissive. The two boys have discovered their wild side
since going raw. Competition is the name of the game, since they're
getting real carnivore food.
How to diffuse this?
I prepare the food and never give it to them while they are acting
out. They need to calm down before I give it to them. This
communicates what I feel is acceptable behaviour.
At times, I separate the feeding between the boys - one in one room
and the other in the other room.
The 13 yr. old was quite obese when he started on raw last May and he
still acts like he is food-deprived. Food is the center of his
existence. I feed twice a day and his inner clock is ready one hour
before I'm ready (at the very least!). Still, they have to be calm
when it's feeding time or they get nothing.
Suffice it to say - real food for them has arrived and they are
acting like animals, like carnivores.
You can help the process by not giving in to their demands (and
therefore reinforcing their bad behaviour) but by maintaining control
and the alpha position.
Hope this is a help.
Blessings,
Belinda and "Honey" from Holland

Messages in this topic (5)
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5.1. Green Tripe
Posted by: "mrsmenk" mrsmenk@starpower.net mrsmenk
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:20 pm ((PST))

Sorry if this has been covered before. I could not find it in the
archives.

How much green tripe can I feed my dogs (lab dane mix and dane - both
about 120 lbs.)? Is it considered an organ or a protein/meat? They
seem to love it but I don't want to overdo it.

Also, my two don't really care for chicken. I know I can force them to
eat it but what other sources of beef are there that are cheap? Are
tracheas considered meat or organ? Thanks.

Linda, Luke, & Lucy
VA

Messages in this topic (61)
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5.2. Re: Golden
Posted by: "Marjet Wolbertus" marjetwolbertus@sbcglobal.net marjetsf
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:REMOVE THE AD IN YOUR SIGNATURE. IT WAS REMOVED ONE TIME ONLY BY THE MODERATOR. NEXT TIME YOUR MAIL WILL BE DELETED!!! PLEASE AND THANK YOU.

Well we are on day 3 and Sandy has happily devoured several
chickenbreasts, turkey necks and today a piece of oxtail and a whole
lambshank.
She is lying here next to me wiped out, it took her almost an hour to
snack on the shank and she left some very small pieces of bone with a
few larger splinters that she didnt eat, so I tossed them out. Very
happy retriever. Besides enjoying her food it wipes her out..

Fun!

Marjet Wolbertus

email marjetwolbertus@sbcglobal.net
www.marjetsellssf.com

On 29-Nov-07, at 5:01 PM, mrsmenk wrote:

> Sorry if this has been covered before. I could not find it in the
> archives.
>
> How much green tripe can I feed my dogs (lab dane mix and dane - both
> about 120 lbs.)? Is it considered an organ or a protein/meat? They
> seem to love it but I don't want to overdo it.
>
> Also, my two don't really care for chicken. I know I can force them to
> eat it but what other sources of beef are there that are cheap? Are
> tracheas considered meat or organ? Thanks.
>
> Linda, Luke, & Lucy
> VA
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (61)
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6a. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:21 pm ((PST))

Thankyou everyone- I will do my best to answer all ...dink is 2 oct....has been raw fed since 4 mos. She has been eating since i first joined last week ground turkey only... I was told to go slow on bone- I have just added it back- 3 days ago..it was defatted & deskinned and the bulk of her meal was the meat. (back one day skip than a thigh)
I started on barf style but kept reading...learned more & dropped all to go with prey model.........meat,bone & organ.( almost a year now) On occasion I would feed can,drained & rinsed mackeral to which i would add pumpkin & yogurt. She was under weight & liked tuna so I would give her a couple times a week ...all in addition to her meat meal.....she only eats small amounts so i feed her more often.
She refused all food today so tonight I offered her her mackeral........2 bites is all she took.
She is parasite free....as of 3 wks ago- but had a bacterial overgrowth that vet medded her for....she had been 10 days & improved. The vet has given her the same meds now for over a year.........10 days & off untill next relapse. Now that I am aware I dont want her to have them anymore.
Tomorrow i will go to grocery for bone in breast meat- should i use turkey only for a couple weeks as she seems to tolerate it well? I dont have anything but ground here tonight so would it hurt her to offer her her tuna???
I do have SE - in capsule-800mg...how much should I use...( 7 1/2 lbs)...also have Bifidophilus caps.....should i use together & mix in the food?
I just returned from the nursing home and she appears better- walking normal-cold moist nose and is trying to play with the other kids.
thankyou all & sorry- i panic now when i see her hunch & start to cry.
Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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6b. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "Marjet Wolbertus" marjetwolbertus@sbcglobal.net marjetsf
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

I think tuna has way too much salt in it and good do damage,
especially canned..that's my opinion. Just skip a day and do the
chickenbreast tomorrow bone in, it was what Sandy went for after a
slow first time.

Marjet Wolbertus

Realtor

The Barbagelata Realty Company
45 West Portal Avenue
San Francisco, CA 94127

direct Line (415) 317-7172

email marjetwolbertus@sbcglobal.net
www.marjetsellssf.com

On 29-Nov-07, at 5:07 PM, Cathy wrote:

> Thankyou everyone- I will do my best to answer all ...dink is 2
> oct....has been raw fed since 4 mos. She has been eating since i
> first joined last week ground turkey only... I was told to go slow
> on bone- I have just added it back- 3 days ago..it was defatted &
> deskinned and the bulk of her meal was the meat. (back one day skip
> than a thigh)
> I started on barf style but kept reading...learned more & dropped
> all to go with prey model.........meat,bone & organ.( almost a year
> now) On occasion I would feed can,drained & rinsed mackeral to which
> i would add pumpkin & yogurt. She was under weight & liked tuna so I
> would give her a couple times a week ...all in addition to her meat
> meal.....she only eats small amounts so i feed her more often.
> She refused all food today so tonight I offered her her
> mackeral........2 bites is all she took.
> She is parasite free....as of 3 wks ago- but had a bacterial
> overgrowth that vet medded her for....she had been 10 days &
> improved. The vet has given her the same meds now for over a
> year.........10 days & off untill next relapse. Now that I am aware
> I dont want her to have them anymore.
> Tomorrow i will go to grocery for bone in breast meat- should i use
> turkey only for a couple weeks as she seems to tolerate it well? I
> dont have anything but ground here tonight so would it hurt her to
> offer her her tuna???
> I do have SE - in capsule-800mg...how much should I use...( 7 1/2
> lbs)...also have Bifidophilus caps.....should i use together & mix
> in the food?
> I just returned from the nursing home and she appears better-
> walking normal-cold moist nose and is trying to play with the other
> kids.
> thankyou all & sorry- i panic now when i see her hunch & start to cry.
> Cathy
>
> C Richmond
> Lesmar's CC
> Battle Creek, Mi.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. Bad Pork??
Posted by: "Tracy" fireynyredhead@yahoo.com fireynyredhead
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:21 pm ((PST))

I usually just lurk and read what other have to say. Before I pose my
question, I wanted to thank everyone for the comments that I've read.
I have a 4 y/o GSD who has been sickly since I got him at 11 weeks, had
him back and forth to the vet who had no real answers. I have had him
on raw for about 2 months now and he is healthier than he has ever been
so now I have switched my Pomeranian.

Now for my question. I have tried to look this up with little success,
probably because of the way I am wording it.

For dogs is there such a thing as Bad Pork? How long does pork last in
the fridge before it becomes unhealthy for the dogs? I know that they
love really ripe beef, but still being rather new to this, I was
wondering if it is ok to feed pork that is no longer fit for human
comsumption?

Thanks,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Bad Pork??
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:35 pm ((PST))

>For dogs is there such a thing as Bad Pork? How long does pork last in the fridge before it >becomes unhealthy for the dogs? I know that they love really ripe beef, but still being >rather new to this, I was wondering if it is ok to feed pork that is no longer fit for human >consumption?

Hi,Tracy. I have never fed something ripe to my dog but,I would not feed newbie dog something ripe because digestive system maynot be up to it.

I usually cut to portion andzipbag it and put all small bags to one big zip bag and freeze it.
I then take one bag out day before thefeeding day and,thaw in fridge.

Some of the items are unsliced and sleeping in freezer.Those are for big meal day time. such big one,I take 2 days before feeding time and thaw it in fridge and feed it but again, I would not try feeding bigger meal to newbie dog.I would not feed big all of thetime,I feed big once a month now and I am planning to move up to more big meal in a month gradually.

Pork that i avoid will be seasoned pork.

yassy

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8a. Re: hookworms??
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

Thats a blow fly, YUK!!!!!

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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9. Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
Posted by: "mariola9000" mariola9000@yahoo.com mariola9000
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

I picked up some venison scraps from a butcher today and he told me to
wash the meat because it is not fresh (the deer were not local - from
Colorado, and we live in California) and dirty. BTW - I told the
butcher I wanted the sraps for the dog, but did not say anything about
raw.
What do you think? Should I wash it before freezing like he suggested,
and if yes - in what? Plain warm water?

I will be going over to his store for more and fresher meat next week,
also some boar scraps.

What else should I ask for? I think I could convince this guy to give
me/sell more stuff. If I ask for meaty bones of a goat for example
(the goat leg quarters are $3.29/lb), what would be a reasonable
amount to pay for those? I got scraps for free, but I guess people are
usually paying for meaty bones, right?.

I never fed goat yet. Are goat bones soft? Which ones are edible?

He asked if I wanted the deer bones bones, but those were devoid of
any meat, so I declined. I already had bare naked bones from my
previous "deer hunt" and that was disappointing.

Mariola

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10a. Hookworms?? UPDATE
Posted by: "Heidi" troopob@yahoo.com troopob
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:18 pm ((PST))

Hello,

Thanks for the help and suggestions.

My DH took Obi in to the vet today and it was indeed the cuterebra.
The vet said the dog will stick his head in a rabbit hole and the
larva (from a fly) get on the muzzle and then migrate back to the
back where they burrow in. He must have found the right hole. All
the symptoms fit now. Itchy face from the larva starting their
migration, breathing issue from larva in the nose or throat, itchy
probably caused stress that caused the diarrhea and vomiting. Fecal
results come back tomorrow.

They pulled the larva out (smaller than maggot) and gave some topical
ointment. Vet said it was unusual this time of year, but we have had
a very warm fall and who knows how long they've been laying in wait.
Heidi and Obi

Messages in this topic (10)
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10b. Re: Hookworms?? UPDATE
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:29 pm ((PST))

> My DH took Obi in to the vet today and it was indeed the cuterebra.

Ah good to hear that it's nothing more serious! Gross, but something you
can deal with.

Casey

Messages in this topic (10)
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11a. Question about Live animal markets (sanitary?)
Posted by: "Elie" obo12759@yahoo.com obo12759
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:35 pm ((PST))

Hi all, I've been lurking here for a while and this is my first post,
actually. I started my little guy on raw about 2 months ago, and he's
been doing great on it- tons of energy, beautiful coat, the whole deal.
So my question is this: until now, I've been buying whatever was on
sale in the supermarket (i.e. beef, chicken, turkey, etc.), while
looking into other places I might acquire food more cheaply and in
greater quantities.
So after looking around for a while, I found a place next to where I
work and that was kinda convenient for me: a Halal Live animal market.
I went in there a couple of days ago, talked to them a bit, got their
prices, and left. The only reason I didn't buy anything then (even
though the prices are much better than the supermarkets', especially
for beef) was that I was kinda put off by the general gross-ness and
uncleanliness of the operation - none of the equipment seemed
particularly clean, and there were live animals hanging out right next
to the place where they processed the meat. In any event, I decided to
go back there today and buy just a bit to try out. So they led me to
the back where they had some frozen beef left over from a previous
order, and I bought a couple of pounds worth. I didn't think of it at
the time, but the meat I bought in the freezer was tossed in there
along with lots of other scraps, some of which still had the hide
attached. And when I got home, I realized there were bits of hair on
the meat (presumably from when it touched the hide) and that it
smelled very strongly like a farm. And here's the kicker - in the car,
I realized that my hands smelled a bit like feces- this, after I
touched and handled some of the beef from their freezer.

So, after this long and rambling post, I suppose my question is this:
I have no idea if this meat is safe to feed to my dog. I know, dogs
can handle ripe beef and all that, but how do I know that this beef
isn't tainted with some harmful bacteria? Like from the feces which I
assume got mixed in somehow with the beef in that freezer (because of
improper handling/butchering). Eventhough my dog likes to sneak in the
occasional poo treat when I'm not looking, that's his own poo, not
from other animals. My main concern is basically this: given the fact
that I found this place to be rather unsanitary, and that the beef
still smells like farm animals, and that it was touching the hide of
the cow in the freezer, and that my hands smellled like poo after
touching some of that meat, do any of you think safe to feed my puppy?
Any responses would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Elie

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Question about Live animal markets (sanitary?)
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:41 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Elie" <obo12759@...> wrote:
>
> I suppose my question is this:
> I have no idea if this meat is safe to feed to my dog.

*** I'm surprised that a Halal establishment would be so dirty,
since the essence of Halal is cleanliness, humaneness, and
sanitation. That being said, if it is whole meat and not ground, I
think it is fine to feed the dog. Any contamination will be minimal
and only on the outside of the meat. To be extra safe you could wash
it before feeding, and even spritz it with H2O2, vinegar, or GSE. I
wouldn't bother with that though. Dogs eat other animals' poop more
often than they eat their own.

*** I wouldn't worry about the hairs on the meat--I butcher my own
animals Halal style in the most humane and sanitary way possible,
but I still find it impossible when skinning to keep the carcass
completely free of hair. Poo is another story, but a little
hair/wool will stick to the carcass no matter how careful I am.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: Vomiting after meals
Posted by: "sphynxlover2" AST42701@aol.com sphynxlover2
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:47 pm ((PST))

Sorry for the delay in response. Seems like there just isn't enough
time in a day. Anyway, to answer your questions...
>
> Does he, or are you letting him, eat it back up?
>

The first time that it happened, I rinsed off the meat and offered it
to him again and he ate it and kept it down. Every time since then
I've offered it to him again and he refused.

> Do these vomited meals have bone?
>
If he's eaten bone with that meal then yes, he vomits that back up as
well.

> Does he vomit after activity, like an evening walk?

No, he has always gotten his evening walk before dinner and usually
has at least an hour, sometimes two before I feed him.
>
> Has he had recent vaccines, and what is his vaccine history
generally?

No, he hasn't been vaccinated in two years and won't be vaccinated
again. His vaccine history was the typical puppy shots (I didn't
know better at the time), vaccinated at four years old and then none
since.
>
> How's his water consumption? Does he drink a lot after meals?

Not so much that I've noticed. He usually takes in most of his daily
water intake when we get in from our walk, which is before dinner.
Rachelle in MS

Messages in this topic (8)
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12b. Re: Vomiting after meals
Posted by: "sphynxlover2" AST42701@aol.com sphynxlover2
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:52 pm ((PST))

Hi Andrea,

He has always been a slow and picky eater, and he's never been one to
gulp. He usually chews and swallows slowly and carefully. I have
tried hand feeding him and tonight it helped. I only gave him 1/2
pound and I offered it real slow and he kept it down and actually asked
for more.

Rachelle in MS

> Is he eating too quickly or bolting his food?

Messages in this topic (8)
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12c. Re: Vomiting after meals
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:54 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sphynxlover2" <AST42701@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry for the delay in response. Seems like there just isn't enough
> time in a day.

*** Ain't that the truth! Has this only been going on since last
weekend? On the camping trip, did he drink water from streams or
puddles? If so he may have picked up a bug from that. You may want to
phone the vet and mention the diarrhea and camping trip and ask what
they recommend to diagnose such a thing. Giardia, for example, needs
to be examined under the microscope within 10 minutes or the little
bugger encysts and are hard to see.

*** Aside from that, he may just have some irritation/inflammation of
the tummy, and a 24 hour fast may allow that to heal and solve the
problem.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (8)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12331

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Dinky
From: Sandee Lee
1b. Re: Dinky
From: katkellm
1c. Re: Dinky
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
1d. Re: Dinky
From: Giselle
1e. Re: Dinky
From: Sandee Lee
1f. Re: Dinky
From: Giselle

2a. will too much bone cause the runs?
From: carnesbill
2b. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
From: Giselle

3a. Starving to death...
From: jackie
3b. Re: Starving to death...
From: Andrea

4a. Re: Seasoned pork
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: Seasoned pork
From: Mary Tinder
4c. Re: Seasoned pork
From: Morledzep@aol.com

5a. Re: Sheep processing
From: katkellm

6. New to group - hello!
From: Lisa Harmon

7a. what should i buy
From: tiffany.contempopainting
7b. Re: what should i buy
From: Laurie Swanson

8a. Mixing veggies with meat
From: lolaspony
8b. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
From: Sandee Lee
8c. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
From: Maria

9a. Anal Glands
From: paula.0666
9b. Re: Anal Glands
From: MORGAN LEWIS
9c. Re: Anal Glands
From: Yasuko herron

10a. Better than kibble....
From: mozookpr

11. High Volume Treats
From: Treulich, Sarah

Messages
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1a. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:01 pm ((PST))

Cathy,

I wouldn't be feeding backs at this point. Possibly bone-in chicken breast.
Stick to meaty small meals with little fat, little (if any) bone. Did you
ever get any pancreatic or good digestive enzymes?

If this were my dog, I'd get her to the vet for bloodwork.

BTW, I think I mentioned this previously...Flagyl is nasty stuff with tons
of side effects. Without knowing what's wrong, I'm not certain about using
any of those drugs. You really need to get a diagnosis on this kid!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@sbcglobal.net>

Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:39 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@...> wrote:
She was
> eating ground turkey -the chicken was for the bone(a back)with
> additional ground meat.

Hi Cathy,
Sorry to hear that Dinky is having another bout with a sick tummy. I
think along with ditching the backs, it might be helpful to not feed
any ground meat. Maybe just a little bone in chicken breast to add a
smidgen of bone and smaller meals of boneless chicken breast-hunks of
meat, not ground meat. KathyM

Messages in this topic (10)
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1c. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:31 pm ((PST))

Cathy,
How long has she been on raw altogether?
If she tolerates ground meat, of any kind, go to that for however long it takes to get her back on track. She doesn't have to have bone, all the time. :Bone is only supposed to be 10% of her entire diet, and if she is having a problem back off the bone for a time. She can survive on just meat:) Really. And let her survive, and get healthy on what she can tolerate, and then introduce some bone back in. What was her stable protein before you went to the chicken?

How did you start her on raw? Prey model or Barf? A little info goes a long ways. Most dogs can tolerate chicken best. The medicine she is on can cause stomach problems and could be the problem too. Why is she on those? There are natural ways to help her thru this without drugs, it may take a little bit of time, like a day or two, but it can be done. You can use the Seacure, which is a powder, added to ground meat, a little scoup should help, at each feeding. Also the herbal remedy of slippery elm, in powder form, settles the stomach, and helps with calming the digestion pretty fast, only it's pricy, at some places, but easily available, unlike the seacure. You can find Seacure at high end animal places. Slippery elm can be used in the ground food too, a small teaspoon at each meal.

And make the ground food, just meat, no veggies or fruit, that can tax the system too much right now. And some fruits and veggies can cause runny stools, and we don't want that either. Also too much bone can do the same.

When you give dogs chicken backs, pardon me for saying this, and I learned it the hard way too, so I can say it, there isn't enough meat on them to be a meal, so you can have these kinds of problems. Having runny stools makes for a very uncomfortable animal. But giving her something substantial should help her come out of it. Think meat, and keep it that way for a week or two, and if you have a meat grinder, you can grind up small chickens and that way the meat to bone ratio isn't bad and she still gets her bones, without causeing the upset. But you don't have to for at least a week, I would think.

I hope that helps you out. And don't cry, you and she will be fine. Really:)

jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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1d. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:10 pm ((PST))

Hi, Cathy!
Sometimes you have to soothe the gut irritation long term
before you can even think about feeding variety and 'regular' meals.

I would fast her for a couple meals or a day and offer her plenty of low
sodium, low fat broth. If you whisk in some Slippery Elm Bark Powder, this
can help soothe her digestive distress.
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
You also can get loose or caps of SEBP at health food stores.

Also, I'd retreat to a simpler diet - feed only one protein, no supps or
grains or veggies. Feed the protein that she has had the best results from,
or the least discomfort. Don't feed ground. Trim visible fat and skin. If
you're feeding chicken or turkey, cut out the bone for now, but leave the
white ends of the bones for her to eat. This is the cartilage and is soft
and easily digested. The gristle alone can satisfy a tiny dog's 10-15%
percent of bone thats needed in the diet. Ribbon the meat if she has missing
teeth, so she has places to grab onto.

Feed smaller, but more frequent meals, 3 - 5 a day. You can sprinkle the
SEBP on the meat, or roll the meat in it.

This little dog may have IBD/IBS and need to have her diet tweaked for her
special needs. I wouldn't add antibiotics if there isn't a strong indication
that they are actually needed. You may want to consider giving her digestive
enzymes or probiotics for awhile;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/138875
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestive_enzyme#Pancreatic_enzymes

Lastly, chicken and other meats can be enhanced with injected salt or
'broth' solutions or flavorings/seasonings or 'marinade'. Some dogs get
itchy, some dogs vomit, some dogs have loose stools or diarrhea when they
eat meats with these products added. Check out the labels, including the
fine print, before buying to be sure that Dinky isn't getting them.

HTH

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 29, 2007 1:49 PM, Cathy Richmond <batcathy@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> I am in tears again- Dink is 1 week into chicken (& turkey - she has
> had many times).....meat twice a day... next day a bit of meat &
> bone...smaller portions. She ate very slight last night & nothing this
> am........I was watching as she was laying more than usual....runs i
> expected. About an hour ago she started her pacing & hunched over and
> just now started to cry again. Her gut hurts and this is the same as
> every relapse. She has had nothing but the meat & bone....I am at a
> loss as to what to think.
> I have her Albon & Flagil on hand- I will have to give her to get her
> over this hump or she will worsen. I dont know where to turn now. Is it
> possible she is allergic to chicken?? Can this be a reaction?? She was
> eating ground turkey -the chicken was for the bone(a back)with
> additional ground meat.
> Any help will be appreciated.........still looking for different vet. I
> just cant imagine a canine not being able to eat raw food...it just
> don't seem possible to me....and she has had nothing else...no dairy, no
> egg, no veggie, no grain, no nothing!!!
> Cathy
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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1e. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:40 pm ((PST))

My worry is pancreatitis...that hunched back, pacing and stomach pain are
classic symptoms.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Giselle" <megan.giselle@gmail.com>
>
> This little dog may have IBD/IBS and need to have her diet tweaked for her
> special needs. I wouldn't add antibiotics if there isn't a strong
indication
> that they are actually needed. You may want to consider giving her
digestive
> enzymes or probiotics for awhile;
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/138875
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestive_enzyme#Pancreatic_enzymes

Messages in this topic (10)
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1f. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:59 pm ((PST))

Ummm, could be. I have seen those symptoms with IBD, with diarrhea.

In that case, everything I'd suggested would still apply, except Dinky would
need to keep to VERY LEAN meats.

Chronic or acute, if it doesn't subside within a day, a vet visit with IV
fluids and antibiotics would be in order to quell the flare.

TC
Giselle

On Nov 29, 2007 6:40 PM, Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:

> My worry is pancreatitis...that hunched back, pacing and stomach pain
> are
> classic symptoms.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "Giselle" <megan.giselle@gmail.com <megan.giselle%40gmail.com>>
>
> >
> > This little dog may have IBD/IBS and need to have her diet tweaked for
> her
> > special needs. I wouldn't add antibiotics if there isn't a strong
> indication
> > that they are actually needed. You may want to consider giving her
> digestive
> > enzymes or probiotics for awhile;
> > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/138875
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestive_enzyme#Pancreatic_enzymes
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:39 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, recyclerat@... wrote:
>
> i've since STOPPED giving the oats and vegetables - and have
> only been feeding chickens and fish...and he seems to be doing
> SO much better...

Great, if it were me, I'd hold off of fish for a few more weeks
also. I would feed chicken only at least for two weeks. The secret
here is to go SLOWLY. Don't worry at this point about putting
weight on him. I know he is skinny and looks miserable but let's
solve one problem at a time. Right now, the problem is digestion.
You seem to be winning that battle. Don't jepordize by moving too
fast. Once his digestion normalizes, weight will come automatically.

> he seems so very HUNGRY, that i'm having to keep myself from
> over feeding him, i dont want to make the diarreah return..
>but its so hard to see him so thin like this and NOT over
> feed him...

I know, be tough. You can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

> do you think it is safe for me to give tripe
> (ewwwwwwwwwwww.) while his insides are in such a tender state?

It probably is but I don't see a pressing reason to. You have been
seeing progress for a couple of days and now you want to do
something different. When you are seeing progress keep doing
exactly what you have been doing, don't be in a hurry to change
thing.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:47 pm ((PST))

Hi, Heather!
I'm glad he's doing better, sometimes you have to stop the
vicious cycle of irritated gut = bad poops = irritated gut = bad poops,
etc., before you can get on the right track.

Glad, too, that you ditched the grain and veggies! These are the major
causes of food sensitivities, I don't know why meat is always blamed first.

To put weight on him, add more meals, not more food at each meal. If you're
feeding him 2x a day, add another meal, and feed 3x a day. After a few days
to a week, you might even be able to add a 4th meal. Spread these out over
the day, several hours apart for each would be ideal. That will allow him to
take in more food without overtaxing his digestion at any one mealtime. You
can also add bits and pieces of fattier meats to what you are feeding. A
tiny piece of tongue, or you can add a bit of heart or pork. Just make it a
little blob added to his regular meal, 1x a day, and wait 'n see if he
tolerates it. If so, add the same amount of 'extra' to 2 meals, then 3
meals. Gradually increase the amount of the fattier meat and decrease the
chicken or fish. If you do this very slowly and gradually, you should be
able to see when he has reached his tolerance, and maintain, or back off
that amount.

Weight gain should be slow and controlled. If you do it the way I've
recommended, he should be able to gain weight and not have bowel distress.
If he doesn't tolerate visible fat, continue to trim it.

SEBP can be sprinkled onto, or the meat rolled in the powder, whenever you
need to do this for his digestive comfort.

Tripe should be OK to add, but in bitty amounts to his regular meals. I'd
start with only 1x a day. You want to minimize any changes or additions to
his diet, as change in any large amounts may affect him adversely. Tripe is
not a magical meat, by any means, it is high in water content, low in fat,
but not particularly high in protein or vitamins, etc. Its mostly great
because its stinky and dogs love it!
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl

You can use the above link to check out any protein or body part, just
specify raw *whatever*, and choose the appropriate category, or you'll end
up with bunches of stuff to weed out.

Keep us updated!

TC
Giselle

<snip>

>
>
> I did as Giselle instructed (in an email written to someone else with a
> similar issue) and fasted him for a day, only giving bits of raw chicken
> with the
> herbal for his gut (slippery elm)... the day without the oats and veg's,
> with only the meat and the supp. really seemed to help him..and by the
> next
> morning i could just tell he was feeling better..he'd made it thru the
> night
> without waking me to let him out to spray the yard with liquid poop - and
> when he had his BM that morning, while LOOSE, it was NOT the misting spray
> that
> it was(that shot out with the force of water coming out a fire hose)...so
> I've since STOPPED giving the oats and vegetables - and have only been
> feeding
> chickens and fish...and he seems to be doing SO much better...
> he seems so very HUNGRY, that I'm having to keep myself from over feeding
> him, I don't want to make the diarrhea return..but its so hard to see him
> so
> thin like this and NOT over feed him...
>
>
> do you think it is safe for me to give tripe (ewwwwwwwwwwww.) while his
> insides are in such a tender state? I don't want to bring on the trots
> again.
> but I DO want him to bulk up!
>
> .heather.
> .frank.
> .chi-chi.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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3a. Starving to death...
Posted by: "jackie" jackiehale1@bellsouth.net jackieoscar2000
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:39 pm ((PST))

I have been feeding my dogs raw since May this year. They look great,
but they act like they are starving to death! I mean, to the point of
stealing things off the counters, out of the trash, etc.
They have lost weight, which they all needed to do and I have increased
their amounts to offset any more weight loss, but darn! My husband is
starting to accuse me of starving them...just kidding me actually.
Just curious. Any observations?
Thanks,
Jackie Hale

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:49 pm ((PST))

My puppy is pretty food obsessed as well, but he's nothing compared to
how bad Geiger used to be. I couldn't go anywhere near the freezer
without him turning cartwheels and begging to be fed. Geiger finally
calmed down about food when I started feeding him big meals. I think
actually feeling "full" for the first time is what did it. You might
want to work up to big meals and see if that helps them. By big meals
and big food I mean feed big one day followed by little or no meal the
next day.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jackie" <jackiehale1@...> wrote:
>
> I have been feeding my dogs raw since May this year. They look
> great, but they act like they are starving to death!

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Seasoned pork
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:39 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
>
> I'm giggling. I feel like I struck gold! Never thought this
> would be so much FUN!

That would be my reaction also. :) I beg my grocer for stuff like
that and he won't sell me any.

> But wonder a bit about the those pork roasts. Bag is
> puffy.

I would feed it. I have fed some VERY raunchy smelling meat before
will no ill effects.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Seasoned pork
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:16 pm ((PST))

Rinsing sounds like a really good option. Thanks Kathy!
Mary T
> My neighbor gave me 3 pork roasts in a bag that were marinated with
> something like herb and garlic that had expired. Though i never would
> buy them, i rinsed them off, realizing that if they were injected ..

Messages in this topic (7)
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4c. Re: Seasoned pork
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:04 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/29/2007 10:10:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mtinder@tinderco.com writes:

But wonder a bit about the those pork roasts. Bag is
puffy.

Mary,

i think even for $.20 lb i would toss these.. while you can rinse off the
marinade on the outside those things are also injected with the marinade into the
meat and you can't wash that out.

if you feel you need to use it because you bought it, then rinse it the best
you can, cook it, and then cube it and use it for training treats.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: Sheep processing
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lori Leonhardt <lorileonhardt@...>
wrote:
>
> I am getting 3 Ewes and 5 lambs that were hit by a car today. I am
meeting the guy at the processer and need to know what to tell them
about processing.

Hi Lori,
I'm going to assume the lambs are little and so, i would freeze them
unprocessed at all and let your dogs eat whole prey. If the whole prey
idea doesn't sit well with you at this point in time, i would process
into 1-2lb roast type hunks. I would get a six way cut on the ewes
and ask them to save the heads, legs, and insides except for the
intestines and the bladder for you. KathyM

Messages in this topic (2)
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6. New to group - hello!
Posted by: "Lisa Harmon" lharmo@LSUHSC.edu lharm0
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:15 pm ((PST))

Hi Everyone!
I'm Lisa and I have 3 German Shepherds,1 Czecky Terrier and in 2
weeks I will be getting a new GSD puppy. I currently show in
competition obedience and the puppy will also be shown in the breed
ring and train for obedience too.

My old boy is 13 and healthy. My 2 female shepherds both have hip
dysplasia, and the terrier has some skin problems that I assume may
be food related.

I have previously fed Purina Dog Chow (I know now - UGH!), than
started learning more so I have recently switched to Solid Gold
without byproducts, etc. I am on a German Shepherd list that have
really influenced me towards feeding raw. I am pretty convinced this
is what I want to do, especially after the puppy comes.

I am looking to buy a freezer before I actually get going on this due
to the number of dogs that I have. Once I get that, I plan to switch.
I am looking forward to learning alot from this group and plan to
review the archives.

So thanks for having me here and have a great day!
Lisa in Louisiana

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. what should i buy
Posted by: "tiffany.contempopainting" tiffcurran@gmail.com tiffany.contempopainting
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:15 pm ((PST))

Hi thanks everyone for the help so far. My dogs have started chicken and I will keep them on that for a while but have realized that my local market doesn't have much variety (chicken turkey) I'm going to a Hispanic market this weekend what should I look for. Eventually we'll need organs and stuff what consitutes organs. Sorry but still new at this.
Tiffany

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: what should i buy
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:08 pm ((PST))

Hi Tiffany,

You should also be able to get beef, pork, lamb, and fish at most
grocery stores (though not necessarily cheap...). Any meat you can
afford is great. They may have rabbit, goat, and duck at the
Hispanic market (although I haven't found a good Hispanic market with
much meat variety yet--I have better luck in Asian markets), in
addition to the usuals... They should also have much more variety in
organs (may have spleen, kidney, liver, heart from various animals).
It's probably easier to tell what NOT to buy. Try not to get things
cut into small pieces, like pork necks (I get big ones and they're
great.)--these are sometimes at the Asian or Hispanic markets. No
goat cut up into small chunks, either. Basically, no bones cut into
small pieces. Don't get tripe--it will have been bleached and I
think cooked, and is worthless. Look for any boneless or bone-in
meat that is good. Keeping in mind, beef bones are inedible/tooth-
breakers. Just remove those bones when they're cleaned off if you
feed them.

Do you have any other specific questions?

Laurie

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Mixing veggies with meat
Posted by: "lolaspony" lolaspony@yahoo.com lolaspony
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:08 pm ((PST))

Hello, everyone.
I'll be the first to admit that I need to read up more on raw feeding,
(I'm new to all of this--and a vegetarian myself!) but I thought that
it was advised to mix pureed raw veggies with the raw meat. Is this
wrong? I've been giving my dog a mixture of raw meat (ground meat,
chicken backs, etc.) with pureed raw veggies (usually carrots,
broccoli, celery), and flaxseed oil, nutritional yeast, and sometimes
raw egg.

I also wonder if I'm giving him the right amount of food. He's 25
pounds, 10 1/2 months and a terrier mix. Any thoughts about
calculating the right amount of food?

I welcome your feedback.

Thanks,
Kathleen

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:13 pm ((PST))

Hi Kathleen,

Dogs, as carnivores, are designed to eat meat, bones and organs...their
normal prey does not include veggies! Best way to feed is nice large meaty
portions of food that will exercise jaw and clean teeth by ripping, tearing,
crunching. No need for ground food, veggies or the supplements, backs are
OK if you are adding lots of meat, eggs are great! If you see a need to
supplement with an oil, stick to fish or salmon oil.

A good starting point is 2-3% of the dog's ideal adult weight per day.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "lolaspony" <lolaspony@yahoo.com>
I'll be the first to admit that I need to read up more on raw feeding,
(I'm new to all of this--and a vegetarian myself!) but I thought that
it was advised to mix pureed raw veggies with the raw meat. Is this
wrong? I've been giving my dog a mixture of raw meat (ground meat,
chicken backs, etc.) with pureed raw veggies (usually carrots,
broccoli, celery), and flaxseed oil, nutritional yeast, and sometimes
raw egg.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:04 pm ((PST))

The ammount to feed varies but here are some numbers you can base it
on.
www.raw4dogs.com/calculate.htm
Veggies aren't needed at all, they are OK as a treat but it really
doesn't do dogs any good. And ground food depletes the dental
cleaning value of raw. He needs bones.

Maria

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lolaspony" <lolaspony@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hello, everyone.
> I'll be the first to admit that I need to read up more on raw
feeding,
> (I'm new to all of this--and a vegetarian myself!) but I thought
that
> it was advised to mix pureed raw veggies with the raw meat. Is this
> wrong? I've been giving my dog a mixture of raw meat (ground meat,
> chicken backs, etc.) with pureed raw veggies (usually carrots,
> broccoli, celery), and flaxseed oil, nutritional yeast, and
sometimes
> raw egg.
>
> I also wonder if I'm giving him the right amount of food. He's 25
> pounds, 10 1/2 months and a terrier mix. Any thoughts about
> calculating the right amount of food?
>
>
> I welcome your feedback.
>
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

9a. Anal Glands
Posted by: "paula.0666" roogirl@adam.com.au paula.0666
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:10 pm ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!

I've been reading the volume of stools posts with interest because my
mini schnauzer has had ongoing anal gland issues ever since my all-
knowing vet said they should be routinely expressed. In anyone's
experience, does the reduced volume of stools present a problem for
dogs with this problem. My vet's suggestion was to increase kibble and
mix psyllium husk with canned food to produce bigger stools to
naturally clear his glands on the way through. Jasper's issues have
settled recently, will raw feeding help or hinder? I'm still
committing to rawfeeding no matter what, I'm just interested in the
experiences and suggestions of the group far more than what Dr No says!

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Anal Glands
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

As my Vet says "It's not hte size of the poop; it's the firmnest of the poop". an a Raw diet is much superior than any kibble formula for compact firm stools. As for routine "expression" of the glands, makes CENTS if you are a VET. Morgan

"paula.0666" <roogirl@adam.com.au> wrote: MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: Anal Glands
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

>In anyone's experience, does the reduced volume of stools present a problem for
dogs with this problem.

Hi. I think rawfed dog's poo is smaller but harder than kibblefed dog's large mushy poo.
Being poo little harder than kibblefed dog's,dog strains a bit to poo and it helps anal grand prob. By pooing bit harder poo,everytime dog goes poo,he/she is expressing grand little by little and no problems remain.

I do not think volume of poo is the key factor for this prob but hardness is.

>My vet's suggestion was to increase kibble and mix psyllium husk with canned food to produce bigger stools to naturally clear his glands on the way through.

I do not understad this. If poo was large volume,the dog is not digesting wahtever you feed to them and not getting much nutrition out of it. I have heard before that feeding resistant fiber(starch??) such as legumes or some grains clean the colon somewhere although I do not believe it is not in dog's interests.But never heard of kibble feeding clean the grand..
If volume of poo waskey factor to clean the grand,all kibblefed dogs should have no problems in anal grand.

>Jasper's issues have settled recently, will raw feeding help or hinder?

I think,feeding raw food is helping Jasper.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Better than kibble....
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
>
> Question about feeding pre-seasoned, in the bag type pork roast...
>
> Not my preferred feed but my friendly neighborhood grocery saved me
> assorted meats that had exceeded the "sell by" date. 20 cents per
> lb. Besides the pork roasts it also included some bare (not
packaged)
> butcher cut meat including PRIME RIB ROAST, looks like pork ribs ,
> prepackaged chicken roasters, turkey wings.
>
> I'm giggling. I feel like I struck gold! Never thought this would
be
> so much FUN! But wonder a bit about the those pork roasts. Bag is
> puffy.
> Mary T
>

Hi, Mary,

It is fun, isn't it? I love a good bargain.

I am so envious! I thought I did well today to get some pork butt
for 99 cents/lb. Got it home and realized it has some sort of
solution added. Also got chicken leg quarters for 39 cents. I am
sure neither is perfect, but....it has to be better than the stuff
that goes into the commercial crap, right? Rinsing is probably a
good idea, but...if you would feel safe eating it, go ahead and feed
it to your dog. Fresh meat that won't kill you won't kill your dog,
either. Meat that is free of all additives is undoubtedly better, as
is organic, but it is all a step up from kibble. I had a hard time
with this, too. I thought to rawfeed right, it needed to all be
organic, free range, etc. Then somoene pointed out to me that the
small amount of meat that ended up in kibble was neither, and
probably a lot worse than ANYTHING I could get at the local grocer's.

You got a deal for your dog? Enjoy, and try not to gloat too much!

;)

Wendy and the kids

Messages in this topic (7)
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11. High Volume Treats
Posted by: "Treulich, Sarah" sarah@softassociates.com jason_softassociates
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:05 pm ((PST))

Hello. I just switched to raw feeding and I'm wondering about what to
use for treats. I clicker train my dogs and that means using lots of
treats, maybe 50 per session with 6 short sessions a day. When I was
feeding kibble I simply used the kibble as treats, mixed with some
hotdog or turkey. Now I can't do that. I'm looking for something about
the size of a fingernail, or smaller. I was considering using the
hotdogs and turkey pieces by themselves. Any suggestions?

Sarah and Man, Lady and Eros

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Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12330

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: HELP A FIRST TIMER....
From: carnesbill

2a. will too much bone cause the runs?
From: blue eyed
2b. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
From: recyclerat@aol.com

3. Sheep processing
From: Lori Leonhardt

4a. Feeding eggs
From: jaygaughan
4b. Re: Feeding eggs
From: Andrea
4c. Re: Feeding eggs
From: judy tallant
4d. Re: Feeding eggs
From: katkellm
4e. Re: Feeding eggs
From: carnesbill
4f. Re: Feeding eggs
From: Tina Berry
4g. Re: Feeding eggs
From: jaygaughan

5a. Re: how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
From: Jay

6a. Re: Volume of stools?
From: costrowski75
6b. Re: Volume of stools?
From: Peggy Parker
6c. Re: Volume of stools?
From: Tina Berry

7a. Re: Beef Shanks?
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: Beef Shanks?
From: katkellm

8a. Seasoned pork
From: Mary Tinder
8b. Re: Seasoned pork
From: Laurie Swanson
8c. Re: Seasoned pork
From: katkellm

9a. Re: Duck Hearts
From: Susanne MacLeod

10a. Dinky
From: Cathy Richmond
10b. Re: Dinky
From: PAM CURL
10c. Re: Dinky
From: Sonja
10d. Re: Dinky
From: Kathie Middlemiss

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: HELP A FIRST TIMER....
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:10 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "amber" <AMBEECHY@...> wrote:
>
> I went to the grocery store and got some chicken breast,
> turkey backs, turkey knecks, pork tails and beef marrow bones.
> I figured I would
> start with the plain boneless chicken breast for a few days
> and then a
> breast on the bone...is that good to start with?

Actually you want to begin with boney parts. Bone helps minimize
the problem of soft stools/diarrhea many dogs have in the
beginning. Bone is a constipator. I suggest feeding nothing but
chicken backs for the first week. The second week, add chicken leg
quarters. Feed backs one meal and quarters the other. Assuming all
is going well, the third week add turkey necks. Alternate turkey
necks with chicken quarters for the second meal for a week. Then
you can add a pork meal a couple of times a week. If all is still
going well, feed some fish a meal the following meal. Then feed a
meal or two of beef. If all is still ok, you are home free.

I have helped switch many many dogs over the last 5 years and not
one of them had any digestive problems when they followed my plan.
I wouldn't feed the beef marrow bones anytime. They CAN damage
teeth and there is no real nutritional benefit from them.

> Should I take the skin
> off the chicken thats on the bone?

It's probably not necessary but if the stools are a little soft you
can if you wish.

> is there anything I need to remove
> or watch out for?

I would not feed chicken wings or necks or marrow bones. Other than
that, if its part of an animal feed it.

I prefer to buy chicken parts rather than the whole chicken. I buy
backs and leg quarters and get them for about half the price of
whole chickens and I have nothing to chop up. Same with turkeys. I
buy turkey necks and wings and that it as far as turkeys go. Been
doing it for 5 years with no problems. Just remember to feed meals
that are meat only also. I feed a lot of pork roasts, beef roasts,
venison roasts and ground venison.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:10 am ((PST))

Hiya, Im a bit behind on my email so sorry if youve had this answer already. The extra bone should help firm the stools, you can pretty much rely on that (unless there is another illness such as certain virus...). The runny poo caused by bone thing, is more likley rumour that started due to the fact that *cooked bones can cause dogs to have the runs (*as its un-natural for them to digest and the body has to get rid of it otherwise it can compact inside them)

RMB's should help firm things up a bit but I would be keeping an eye on the poop situation, just to make sure you know where the dog is at, ie too firm/too soft.....

Also, I'm presuming you know why he is underweight? ie his illness, not food related?
You want raw edible bones to firm stools when needed, however if he needs to put weight on you should add a bit of extra meat along with his meals, as its the meat that puts weight on. Some swear by tripe (which is also easy on their tummy)

Natalie

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Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:53 am ((PST))

Also, I'm presuming you know why he is underweight? ie his illness, not food
related?
You want raw edible bones to firm stools when needed, however if he needs to
put weight on you should add a bit of extra meat along with his meals, as
its the meat that puts weight on. Some swear by tripe (which is also easy on
their tummy)

Natalie
*************************************
Thanks for the info Natalie - he is super underweight due to cronic
diarreah...he's had it all his life, and we go thru time when the problem flares up
REALLY BAD -- He has lost the most weight he's ever lost recently, and after
changing dog foods a gazillion times over the passed 8 yrs and barrel fulls of
money spent at the vets office - discovered gluten free dog food last year -
and it HELPED the problem, but didn't solve it - more internet research
pointed me in the direction that my dog could have IBS - and that is how i
happened upon the Raw Diet...i'd never heard of anything like this...so i started a
diet that i found on the net - involving raw meats, bones, rolled oats,
pureed vegetables, and a few supplements - i started that almost 4 months
ago...and things REALLY perked up for him...it was like he had some life back...and
things were going great until a few weeks ago....another horrible flare up in
his bowel (i figured he snuck food from one of my children, something that
obviously he was having a reaction too) but things werent getting any
better...and after a week of vomiting and diarreah, he had lost so much weight that
all bones were protruding..spine, every rib, hip bones...his hair was
starting to fall out..he looked just miserable...we called the vet to get the facts
on euthanasia..and told ourselves we'd give him the weekend to show at least
SOME sign of improvment...that day was the day i found this email loop.

i did as Giselle instructed (in an email written to someone else with a
similar issue) and fasted him for a day, only giving bits of raw chicken with the
herbal for his gut (slippery elm)... the day without the oats and veg's,
with only the meat and the supp. really seemed to help him..and by the next
morning i could just tell he was feeling better..he'd made it thru the night
without waking me to let him out to spray the yard with liquid poop - and
when he had his BM that morning, while LOOSE, it was NOT the misting spray that
it was(that shot out with the force of water coming out a fire hose)...so
i've since STOPPED giving the oats and vegetables - and have only been feeding
chickens and fish...and he seems to be doing SO much better...
he seems so very HUNGRY, that i'm having to keep myself from over feeding
him, i dont want to make the diarreah return..but its so hard to see him so
thin like this and NOT over feed him...

do you think it is safe for me to give tripe (ewwwwwwwwwwww.) while his
insides are in such a tender state? i dont want to bring on the trots again.
but i DO want him to bulk up!

.heather.
.frank.
.chi-chi.

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Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3. Sheep processing
Posted by: "Lori Leonhardt" lorileonhardt@yahoo.com lorileonhardt
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:10 am ((PST))

I am getting 3 Ewes and 5 lambs that were hit by a car today. I am meeting the guy at the processer and need to know what to tell them about processing.

Lori Leonhardt
Catahoula United Rescue Society, Inc - CURS
Website: www.catahoulaunited.com

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Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Feeding eggs
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

My Dane pup is going on 9 weeks. I would like to start introducing eggs
to him. I've read I should feed him shell and all. Can someone please
explain how I should do this? Do I crush and scramble the shelled egg
and put it in his dish with his meat or solo or what?

Thank you

Jay

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Feeding eggs
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:51 am ((PST))

I ususally introduce eggs by handing the whole thing to the dog to see
if they will break it open first. If they don't I crack a hole in the
top and give it back to them. After the first few times of me opening
the eggs for them the dogs usually get it and do it on their own.

You could also crack an egg into a bowl and let the dog eat what they
will. Some dogs don't particularly like shells. No biggie.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> My Dane pup is going on 9 weeks. I would like to start introducing
> eggs to him. I've read I should feed him shell and all. Can someone
> please explain how I should do this?

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Feeding eggs
Posted by: "judy tallant" judy@tallant.com judyltallant
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:22 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES

I drop them into the bowl hard enough to crack the shell and they
take care of everything. The only reason I pre-crack is because I
have goldens, and they like to carry things around. The first couple
of times they got whole eggs, they danced around with them in their
mouths like they had a prize - drooling all the while. Eventually
they would put a tooth through the shell with this merriment going
on, and the drool mixed with raw egg wasn't so amusing.

On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:18 AM, jaygaughan wrote:

> My Dane pup is going on 9 weeks. I would like to start introducing
> eggs
> to him. I've read I should feed him shell and all. Can someone please
> explain how I should do this? Do I crush and scramble the shelled egg
> and put it in his dish with his meat or solo or what

Judy Tallant
Snohomish, Wa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: Feeding eggs
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:22 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
I've read I should feed him shell and all. Can someone please
> explain how I should do this? Do I crush and scramble the shelled egg
> and put it in his dish with his meat or solo or what?

Hi Jay,
2 of my 3 dogs won't eat the shell, although they love eggs, so i
would think that for the initial presentation you might want to
scramble it up and put it in a dish either solo or over meat. Next
time, crack up the shell and include with the egg and see what he
thinks. Since we are feeding 10% bone in the diet, the nutrients from
the shell aren't of paramount importance. Some people feed the
complete egg in the shell out in the backyard. It is one of those
what works best for and your dog things.
KathyM

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4e. Re: Feeding eggs
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:23 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> Do I crush and scramble the shelled egg
> and put it in his dish with his meat or solo or what?

I just break open the egg and pour it in the bowl when there is
something else to feed in the bowl. I used to put the broken shell in
the bowl but stopped that when I realized that my dogs get enough
calcium through bone and don't really need more. After that
realization, I haven't fed shells. They didn't particularly like them
anyway.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

4f. Re: Feeding eggs
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:51 am ((PST))

"Do I crush and scramble the shelled egg and put it in his dish with his
meat or solo or what? "

I mix mine up shell and all only because I mix their fish oil in there too
and then they eat the shell too.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (7)
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4g. Re: Feeding eggs
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:34 am ((PST))

Thank You everyone for your replies.

I'll try one tonight and see how it goes.

He looks like a new dog every time I come home. Sleeps 21 hours out of
a day.

Jay

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
Posted by: "Jay" jayrush44@yahoo.com jayrush44
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:34 am ((PST))

Thank you Scott and Laurie for your ideas, I think I will try a
partially frozen whole chicken tonigh.

thanks again, Rita

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Volume of stools?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:51 am ((PST))

"glamour.cupcakes" <glamour.cupcakes@...> wrote:
>
> I came on here with the intention of asking a poop question, too. My
> dog hasn't gone poop in 2 days...is this normal or should I be
> concerned?
*****
How have you been feeding how much of what?
If your dog has just started eating raw, it may take a few days to
reset the system. Since raw food is so digestible (and you feed less
of it, there's less waste (much less than kibble). The kid may not yet
feel sufficient pressure to move his bowels.

If your dog has just started AND you fed a lot of bone, your dog may
need a dose of lubricant--some liver or heart or some fatty meat should
do it--to grease his tubes. Certainly if your dog is showing
discomfort you should lube his tubes.

Three weeks ago I started a three month old kitten on raw; although he
ate four meala a day, they were teensy and raw and of course
grainless. Took him a few days to save up enough to poop. He never
complained. He just didn't have anything to work with.
Chris O

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6b. Re: Volume of stools?
Posted by: "Peggy Parker" peggyparker_4@yahoo.com peggyparker_4
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:24 am ((PST))

I'm glad the subject of poo came up. I am finding my little 4 pounder pooping small amounts
and not often, which is fine with me. Trouble is, I have to be quick to get it up because
he wants to eat it. How do I stop him from doing that?
Peggy

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6c. Re: Volume of stools?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:52 am ((PST))

"My dog hasn't gone poop in 2 days...is this normal or should I be
concerned? She used to go at least twice per day on kibbles. I keep waiting
and waiting and waiting...but nothing!"

3 of mine poop once a day (very small) but one of them goes every few days.
Recently hubby overfed all 4 of them deer carcasses however, and they've
been pooping machines for 2 days. That's what happens when they get
1-1.5lbs daily then hubby gives them a 5lb carcass on top of that.
They've
finally gone back to their once a day routine.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (8)
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7a. Re: Beef Shanks?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:16 am ((PST))

"ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
they are
> selling beef shanks right now for a $1/pound - and I'm embarassed
to
> admit I'm not sure what part of the cow this is - and if it's a
good
> piece of beef to feed large (German Shepherd) dogs.
*****
Shanks are the upper part of the front leg, below the shoulder, above
the knee.

If the farm is offering bare trimmed out shank bones, run away fast.
Shank is another name for leg bone, and cow leg bones are potential
tooth breakers. Waste o' money. Shank bones, in addition to being
heavily trimmed, are often sliced into rounds maybe 2" - 4" thick.
Best avoided when feeding big dogs.

If however the shanks are whole and are fully loaded with meat (I
mean the meat is absolutely BUNDLED around the bone, so much so that
you cannot see the bone except at either end, nor feel it) then a
buck a pound is a good price. What a fully loaded shank offers is a
big meaty meal; the bone itself is not a recommended feed but it
anchors the meat and makes the meat difficult to get at. No gulping
with a meaty shank! Lots of opportunity for ripping and tearing.

Just don't plan on the bone being part of the meal.

A few years ago I could buy uncut shanks from a supermarket that
ordered them whole for onsite slicing. Each weighed five or six
pounds, including the bone, and were about a foot long. Each of my
retrievers would get one for an fully-engaging eating adventure. My
big Lab was able to get much of the marrow out; the smaller dogs were
content to quit when the meat was all gone. These were wonderful
things!

Back then I paid .98/lb. If you can get similar shanks for a buck,
you're doing great.

Ask ask ask before you buy anything.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Beef Shanks?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:22 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
I'm not sure what part of the cow this is - and if it's a good
> piece of beef to feed large (German Shepherd) dogs.

Hi Jen,
The shank is the upper piece of the leg. People use it to make soup.
If the farmer is selling it whole, as in not sliced, and isn't
removing the meat, it is an excellent feed. I would just recommend
removing the bone when is becomes stripped. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Seasoned pork
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:09 am ((PST))

Question about feeding pre-seasoned, in the bag type pork roast...

Not my preferred feed but my friendly neighborhood grocery saved me
assorted meats that had exceeded the "sell by" date. 20 cents per
lb. Besides the pork roasts it also included some bare (not packaged)
butcher cut meat including PRIME RIB ROAST, looks like pork ribs ,
prepackaged chicken roasters, turkey wings.

I'm giggling. I feel like I struck gold! Never thought this would be
so much FUN! But wonder a bit about the those pork roasts. Bag is
puffy.
Mary T

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8b. Re: Seasoned pork
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:34 am ((PST))

Hi Mary,

Are there ingredients listed? If it's really seasoned, I personally
wouldn't feed it (except maybe in very small amounts as treats).
Probably has a lot of spices and salt which could cause digestive upset.

Good score on the other stuff!

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Seasoned pork
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:39 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
>
> Question about feeding pre-seasoned, in the bag type pork roast...

Hi Mary,
This is not a recommend to feed or not to feed, just my experience.
My neighbor gave me 3 pork roasts in a bag that were marinated with
something like herb and garlic that had expired. Though i never would
buy them, i rinsed them off, realizing that if they were injected some
of the stuff was still in there, and fed as a side to add a little
meat to some turkey wings, also expired from a different friend. My
dogs have cast iron tummies and just don't seem to get loose stools
from anything-or we live on a horse farm and do chores outside all day
and if they do get loose stools, i just don't notice, so i wasn't
worried about it. It might fall into a know thy dog thing.

KathyM who just realized this probably wasnt particularly helpful

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Duck Hearts
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:33 am ((PST))

Well I fed the duck hearts...only 4 of them to Kate, and she puked all
night long...poor thing. My boy, Joey was fine. What a mess...all
over my bed! :(
Suz Kate and Joey

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10a. Dinky
Posted by: "Cathy Richmond" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:55 am ((PST))

I am in tears again- Dink is 1 week into chicken (& turkey - she has
had many times).....meat twice a day... next day a bit of meat &
bone...smaller portions. She ate very slight last night & nothing this
am........I was watching as she was laying more than usual....runs i
expected. About an hour ago she started her pacing & hunched over and
just now started to cry again. Her gut hurts and this is the same as
every relapse. She has had nothing but the meat & bone....I am at a
loss as to what to think.
I have her Albon & Flagil on hand- I will have to give her to get her
over this hump or she will worsen. I dont know where to turn now. Is it
possible she is allergic to chicken?? Can this be a reaction?? She was
eating ground turkey -the chicken was for the bone(a back)with
additional ground meat.
Any help will be appreciated.........still looking for different vet. I
just cant imagine a canine not being able to eat raw food...it just
dont seem possible to me....and she has had nothing else...no dairy, no
egg, no veggie, no grain, no nothing!!!
Cathy

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "PAM CURL" bpcurl@verizon.net bpcurl
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:33 am ((PST))

Have you tried meatier pieces of chicken instead of backs?
They just seem worthless to me.
Sorry if that offends the back eaters. How about a leg quarter, or breast?
Hope your little ones feels better soon.
Pam C
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
>
>
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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10c. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:33 am ((PST))

I'm so sorry to hear your pup is having this problem!!! Just a warning on the meds you have....Flagyl can cause horrible stomach upset. Try soothing her digestive system with Slippery Elm for the runs.....it works wonders for our dogs.

For the rest of the issues, I'll let someone with more knowledge answer.....but please try slippery elm and hold off on meds unless she needs them for a current infection....and why Albon...does she have a parasitic infection??

Sonja

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10d. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:36 am ((PST))

Cathy:

I imagine it could very well be an inability to handle chicken.

Perhaps see if you can get some bone-in turkey for her to try since she
has had the ground before? If she tolerates that well, then I would try
a different meat. Pork perhaps.

Chicken is by far the easiest to get our hands on, but it's not the only
meat out there!

Will keep my fingers crossed for you!

Kathie M.

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