[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12330

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: HELP A FIRST TIMER....
From: carnesbill

2a. will too much bone cause the runs?
From: blue eyed
2b. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
From: recyclerat@aol.com

3. Sheep processing
From: Lori Leonhardt

4a. Feeding eggs
From: jaygaughan
4b. Re: Feeding eggs
From: Andrea
4c. Re: Feeding eggs
From: judy tallant
4d. Re: Feeding eggs
From: katkellm
4e. Re: Feeding eggs
From: carnesbill
4f. Re: Feeding eggs
From: Tina Berry
4g. Re: Feeding eggs
From: jaygaughan

5a. Re: how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
From: Jay

6a. Re: Volume of stools?
From: costrowski75
6b. Re: Volume of stools?
From: Peggy Parker
6c. Re: Volume of stools?
From: Tina Berry

7a. Re: Beef Shanks?
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: Beef Shanks?
From: katkellm

8a. Seasoned pork
From: Mary Tinder
8b. Re: Seasoned pork
From: Laurie Swanson
8c. Re: Seasoned pork
From: katkellm

9a. Re: Duck Hearts
From: Susanne MacLeod

10a. Dinky
From: Cathy Richmond
10b. Re: Dinky
From: PAM CURL
10c. Re: Dinky
From: Sonja
10d. Re: Dinky
From: Kathie Middlemiss

Messages
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1a. Re: HELP A FIRST TIMER....
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:10 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "amber" <AMBEECHY@...> wrote:
>
> I went to the grocery store and got some chicken breast,
> turkey backs, turkey knecks, pork tails and beef marrow bones.
> I figured I would
> start with the plain boneless chicken breast for a few days
> and then a
> breast on the bone...is that good to start with?

Actually you want to begin with boney parts. Bone helps minimize
the problem of soft stools/diarrhea many dogs have in the
beginning. Bone is a constipator. I suggest feeding nothing but
chicken backs for the first week. The second week, add chicken leg
quarters. Feed backs one meal and quarters the other. Assuming all
is going well, the third week add turkey necks. Alternate turkey
necks with chicken quarters for the second meal for a week. Then
you can add a pork meal a couple of times a week. If all is still
going well, feed some fish a meal the following meal. Then feed a
meal or two of beef. If all is still ok, you are home free.

I have helped switch many many dogs over the last 5 years and not
one of them had any digestive problems when they followed my plan.
I wouldn't feed the beef marrow bones anytime. They CAN damage
teeth and there is no real nutritional benefit from them.

> Should I take the skin
> off the chicken thats on the bone?

It's probably not necessary but if the stools are a little soft you
can if you wish.

> is there anything I need to remove
> or watch out for?

I would not feed chicken wings or necks or marrow bones. Other than
that, if its part of an animal feed it.

I prefer to buy chicken parts rather than the whole chicken. I buy
backs and leg quarters and get them for about half the price of
whole chickens and I have nothing to chop up. Same with turkeys. I
buy turkey necks and wings and that it as far as turkeys go. Been
doing it for 5 years with no problems. Just remember to feed meals
that are meat only also. I feed a lot of pork roasts, beef roasts,
venison roasts and ground venison.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:10 am ((PST))

Hiya, Im a bit behind on my email so sorry if youve had this answer already. The extra bone should help firm the stools, you can pretty much rely on that (unless there is another illness such as certain virus...). The runny poo caused by bone thing, is more likley rumour that started due to the fact that *cooked bones can cause dogs to have the runs (*as its un-natural for them to digest and the body has to get rid of it otherwise it can compact inside them)

RMB's should help firm things up a bit but I would be keeping an eye on the poop situation, just to make sure you know where the dog is at, ie too firm/too soft.....

Also, I'm presuming you know why he is underweight? ie his illness, not food related?
You want raw edible bones to firm stools when needed, however if he needs to put weight on you should add a bit of extra meat along with his meals, as its the meat that puts weight on. Some swear by tripe (which is also easy on their tummy)

Natalie

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Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:53 am ((PST))

Also, I'm presuming you know why he is underweight? ie his illness, not food
related?
You want raw edible bones to firm stools when needed, however if he needs to
put weight on you should add a bit of extra meat along with his meals, as
its the meat that puts weight on. Some swear by tripe (which is also easy on
their tummy)

Natalie
*************************************
Thanks for the info Natalie - he is super underweight due to cronic
diarreah...he's had it all his life, and we go thru time when the problem flares up
REALLY BAD -- He has lost the most weight he's ever lost recently, and after
changing dog foods a gazillion times over the passed 8 yrs and barrel fulls of
money spent at the vets office - discovered gluten free dog food last year -
and it HELPED the problem, but didn't solve it - more internet research
pointed me in the direction that my dog could have IBS - and that is how i
happened upon the Raw Diet...i'd never heard of anything like this...so i started a
diet that i found on the net - involving raw meats, bones, rolled oats,
pureed vegetables, and a few supplements - i started that almost 4 months
ago...and things REALLY perked up for him...it was like he had some life back...and
things were going great until a few weeks ago....another horrible flare up in
his bowel (i figured he snuck food from one of my children, something that
obviously he was having a reaction too) but things werent getting any
better...and after a week of vomiting and diarreah, he had lost so much weight that
all bones were protruding..spine, every rib, hip bones...his hair was
starting to fall out..he looked just miserable...we called the vet to get the facts
on euthanasia..and told ourselves we'd give him the weekend to show at least
SOME sign of improvment...that day was the day i found this email loop.

i did as Giselle instructed (in an email written to someone else with a
similar issue) and fasted him for a day, only giving bits of raw chicken with the
herbal for his gut (slippery elm)... the day without the oats and veg's,
with only the meat and the supp. really seemed to help him..and by the next
morning i could just tell he was feeling better..he'd made it thru the night
without waking me to let him out to spray the yard with liquid poop - and
when he had his BM that morning, while LOOSE, it was NOT the misting spray that
it was(that shot out with the force of water coming out a fire hose)...so
i've since STOPPED giving the oats and vegetables - and have only been feeding
chickens and fish...and he seems to be doing SO much better...
he seems so very HUNGRY, that i'm having to keep myself from over feeding
him, i dont want to make the diarreah return..but its so hard to see him so
thin like this and NOT over feed him...


do you think it is safe for me to give tripe (ewwwwwwwwwwww.) while his
insides are in such a tender state? i dont want to bring on the trots again.
but i DO want him to bulk up!

.heather.
.frank.
.chi-chi.

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Messages in this topic (7)
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3. Sheep processing
Posted by: "Lori Leonhardt" lorileonhardt@yahoo.com lorileonhardt
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:10 am ((PST))

I am getting 3 Ewes and 5 lambs that were hit by a car today. I am meeting the guy at the processer and need to know what to tell them about processing.

Lori Leonhardt
Catahoula United Rescue Society, Inc - CURS
Website: www.catahoulaunited.com

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Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Feeding eggs
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

My Dane pup is going on 9 weeks. I would like to start introducing eggs
to him. I've read I should feed him shell and all. Can someone please
explain how I should do this? Do I crush and scramble the shelled egg
and put it in his dish with his meat or solo or what?

Thank you

Jay

Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Feeding eggs
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:51 am ((PST))

I ususally introduce eggs by handing the whole thing to the dog to see
if they will break it open first. If they don't I crack a hole in the
top and give it back to them. After the first few times of me opening
the eggs for them the dogs usually get it and do it on their own.

You could also crack an egg into a bowl and let the dog eat what they
will. Some dogs don't particularly like shells. No biggie.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> My Dane pup is going on 9 weeks. I would like to start introducing
> eggs to him. I've read I should feed him shell and all. Can someone
> please explain how I should do this?

Messages in this topic (7)
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4c. Re: Feeding eggs
Posted by: "judy tallant" judy@tallant.com judyltallant
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:22 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES

I drop them into the bowl hard enough to crack the shell and they
take care of everything. The only reason I pre-crack is because I
have goldens, and they like to carry things around. The first couple
of times they got whole eggs, they danced around with them in their
mouths like they had a prize - drooling all the while. Eventually
they would put a tooth through the shell with this merriment going
on, and the drool mixed with raw egg wasn't so amusing.

On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:18 AM, jaygaughan wrote:

> My Dane pup is going on 9 weeks. I would like to start introducing
> eggs
> to him. I've read I should feed him shell and all. Can someone please
> explain how I should do this? Do I crush and scramble the shelled egg
> and put it in his dish with his meat or solo or what

Judy Tallant
Snohomish, Wa

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Messages in this topic (7)
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4d. Re: Feeding eggs
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:22 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
I've read I should feed him shell and all. Can someone please
> explain how I should do this? Do I crush and scramble the shelled egg
> and put it in his dish with his meat or solo or what?

Hi Jay,
2 of my 3 dogs won't eat the shell, although they love eggs, so i
would think that for the initial presentation you might want to
scramble it up and put it in a dish either solo or over meat. Next
time, crack up the shell and include with the egg and see what he
thinks. Since we are feeding 10% bone in the diet, the nutrients from
the shell aren't of paramount importance. Some people feed the
complete egg in the shell out in the backyard. It is one of those
what works best for and your dog things.
KathyM

Messages in this topic (7)
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4e. Re: Feeding eggs
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:23 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> Do I crush and scramble the shelled egg
> and put it in his dish with his meat or solo or what?

I just break open the egg and pour it in the bowl when there is
something else to feed in the bowl. I used to put the broken shell in
the bowl but stopped that when I realized that my dogs get enough
calcium through bone and don't really need more. After that
realization, I haven't fed shells. They didn't particularly like them
anyway.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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4f. Re: Feeding eggs
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:51 am ((PST))

"Do I crush and scramble the shelled egg and put it in his dish with his
meat or solo or what? "

I mix mine up shell and all only because I mix their fish oil in there too
and then they eat the shell too.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (7)
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4g. Re: Feeding eggs
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:34 am ((PST))

Thank You everyone for your replies.

I'll try one tonight and see how it goes.

He looks like a new dog every time I come home. Sleeps 21 hours out of
a day.

Jay

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
Posted by: "Jay" jayrush44@yahoo.com jayrush44
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:34 am ((PST))

Thank you Scott and Laurie for your ideas, I think I will try a
partially frozen whole chicken tonigh.

thanks again, Rita

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Volume of stools?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:51 am ((PST))

"glamour.cupcakes" <glamour.cupcakes@...> wrote:
>
> I came on here with the intention of asking a poop question, too. My
> dog hasn't gone poop in 2 days...is this normal or should I be
> concerned?
*****
How have you been feeding how much of what?
If your dog has just started eating raw, it may take a few days to
reset the system. Since raw food is so digestible (and you feed less
of it, there's less waste (much less than kibble). The kid may not yet
feel sufficient pressure to move his bowels.

If your dog has just started AND you fed a lot of bone, your dog may
need a dose of lubricant--some liver or heart or some fatty meat should
do it--to grease his tubes. Certainly if your dog is showing
discomfort you should lube his tubes.

Three weeks ago I started a three month old kitten on raw; although he
ate four meala a day, they were teensy and raw and of course
grainless. Took him a few days to save up enough to poop. He never
complained. He just didn't have anything to work with.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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6b. Re: Volume of stools?
Posted by: "Peggy Parker" peggyparker_4@yahoo.com peggyparker_4
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:24 am ((PST))

I'm glad the subject of poo came up. I am finding my little 4 pounder pooping small amounts
and not often, which is fine with me. Trouble is, I have to be quick to get it up because
he wants to eat it. How do I stop him from doing that?
Peggy

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6c. Re: Volume of stools?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:52 am ((PST))

"My dog hasn't gone poop in 2 days...is this normal or should I be
concerned? She used to go at least twice per day on kibbles. I keep waiting
and waiting and waiting...but nothing!"

3 of mine poop once a day (very small) but one of them goes every few days.
Recently hubby overfed all 4 of them deer carcasses however, and they've
been pooping machines for 2 days. That's what happens when they get
1-1.5lbs daily then hubby gives them a 5lb carcass on top of that.
They've
finally gone back to their once a day routine.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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7a. Re: Beef Shanks?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:16 am ((PST))

"ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
they are
> selling beef shanks right now for a $1/pound - and I'm embarassed
to
> admit I'm not sure what part of the cow this is - and if it's a
good
> piece of beef to feed large (German Shepherd) dogs.
*****
Shanks are the upper part of the front leg, below the shoulder, above
the knee.

If the farm is offering bare trimmed out shank bones, run away fast.
Shank is another name for leg bone, and cow leg bones are potential
tooth breakers. Waste o' money. Shank bones, in addition to being
heavily trimmed, are often sliced into rounds maybe 2" - 4" thick.
Best avoided when feeding big dogs.

If however the shanks are whole and are fully loaded with meat (I
mean the meat is absolutely BUNDLED around the bone, so much so that
you cannot see the bone except at either end, nor feel it) then a
buck a pound is a good price. What a fully loaded shank offers is a
big meaty meal; the bone itself is not a recommended feed but it
anchors the meat and makes the meat difficult to get at. No gulping
with a meaty shank! Lots of opportunity for ripping and tearing.

Just don't plan on the bone being part of the meal.

A few years ago I could buy uncut shanks from a supermarket that
ordered them whole for onsite slicing. Each weighed five or six
pounds, including the bone, and were about a foot long. Each of my
retrievers would get one for an fully-engaging eating adventure. My
big Lab was able to get much of the marrow out; the smaller dogs were
content to quit when the meat was all gone. These were wonderful
things!

Back then I paid .98/lb. If you can get similar shanks for a buck,
you're doing great.

Ask ask ask before you buy anything.
Chris O

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7b. Re: Beef Shanks?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:22 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
I'm not sure what part of the cow this is - and if it's a good
> piece of beef to feed large (German Shepherd) dogs.

Hi Jen,
The shank is the upper piece of the leg. People use it to make soup.
If the farmer is selling it whole, as in not sliced, and isn't
removing the meat, it is an excellent feed. I would just recommend
removing the bone when is becomes stripped. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Seasoned pork
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:09 am ((PST))

Question about feeding pre-seasoned, in the bag type pork roast...

Not my preferred feed but my friendly neighborhood grocery saved me
assorted meats that had exceeded the "sell by" date. 20 cents per
lb. Besides the pork roasts it also included some bare (not packaged)
butcher cut meat including PRIME RIB ROAST, looks like pork ribs ,
prepackaged chicken roasters, turkey wings.

I'm giggling. I feel like I struck gold! Never thought this would be
so much FUN! But wonder a bit about the those pork roasts. Bag is
puffy.
Mary T

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8b. Re: Seasoned pork
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:34 am ((PST))

Hi Mary,

Are there ingredients listed? If it's really seasoned, I personally
wouldn't feed it (except maybe in very small amounts as treats).
Probably has a lot of spices and salt which could cause digestive upset.

Good score on the other stuff!

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Seasoned pork
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:39 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
>
> Question about feeding pre-seasoned, in the bag type pork roast...

Hi Mary,
This is not a recommend to feed or not to feed, just my experience.
My neighbor gave me 3 pork roasts in a bag that were marinated with
something like herb and garlic that had expired. Though i never would
buy them, i rinsed them off, realizing that if they were injected some
of the stuff was still in there, and fed as a side to add a little
meat to some turkey wings, also expired from a different friend. My
dogs have cast iron tummies and just don't seem to get loose stools
from anything-or we live on a horse farm and do chores outside all day
and if they do get loose stools, i just don't notice, so i wasn't
worried about it. It might fall into a know thy dog thing.

KathyM who just realized this probably wasnt particularly helpful

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: Duck Hearts
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:33 am ((PST))

Well I fed the duck hearts...only 4 of them to Kate, and she puked all
night long...poor thing. My boy, Joey was fine. What a mess...all
over my bed! :(
Suz Kate and Joey

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10a. Dinky
Posted by: "Cathy Richmond" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:55 am ((PST))

I am in tears again- Dink is 1 week into chicken (& turkey - she has
had many times).....meat twice a day... next day a bit of meat &
bone...smaller portions. She ate very slight last night & nothing this
am........I was watching as she was laying more than usual....runs i
expected. About an hour ago she started her pacing & hunched over and
just now started to cry again. Her gut hurts and this is the same as
every relapse. She has had nothing but the meat & bone....I am at a
loss as to what to think.
I have her Albon & Flagil on hand- I will have to give her to get her
over this hump or she will worsen. I dont know where to turn now. Is it
possible she is allergic to chicken?? Can this be a reaction?? She was
eating ground turkey -the chicken was for the bone(a back)with
additional ground meat.
Any help will be appreciated.........still looking for different vet. I
just cant imagine a canine not being able to eat raw food...it just
dont seem possible to me....and she has had nothing else...no dairy, no
egg, no veggie, no grain, no nothing!!!
Cathy

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "PAM CURL" bpcurl@verizon.net bpcurl
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:33 am ((PST))

Have you tried meatier pieces of chicken instead of backs?
They just seem worthless to me.
Sorry if that offends the back eaters. How about a leg quarter, or breast?
Hope your little ones feels better soon.
Pam C
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
>
>
>

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10c. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:33 am ((PST))

I'm so sorry to hear your pup is having this problem!!! Just a warning on the meds you have....Flagyl can cause horrible stomach upset. Try soothing her digestive system with Slippery Elm for the runs.....it works wonders for our dogs.

For the rest of the issues, I'll let someone with more knowledge answer.....but please try slippery elm and hold off on meds unless she needs them for a current infection....and why Albon...does she have a parasitic infection??

Sonja

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10d. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:36 am ((PST))

Cathy:

I imagine it could very well be an inability to handle chicken.

Perhaps see if you can get some bone-in turkey for her to try since she
has had the ground before? If she tolerates that well, then I would try
a different meat. Pork perhaps.

Chicken is by far the easiest to get our hands on, but it's not the only
meat out there!

Will keep my fingers crossed for you!

Kathie M.

Messages in this topic (4)
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