[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12322

There are 21 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Buying from the source
From: Erika

2. Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
From: Carla Spelt

3a. Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
From: glamour.cupcakes
3b. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: how much to feed a 4lb chihuahua?
From: glamour.cupcakes

5a. UPDATE to my Question RE: [rawfeeding] Pig Leg bones...
From: Eddie Scholten
5b. Re: UPDATE to my Question RE: [rawfeeding] Pig Leg bones...
From: katkellm

6a. UPDATE RE: [rawfeeding] Re: Support when making the switch?
From: Eddie Scholten

7a. Re: Processing a duck??
From: Morledzep@aol.com

8a. variety
From: alimaxral
8b. Re: variety
From: jennifer_hell
8c. Re: variety
From: Cathy
8d. Re: variety
From: katkellm

9a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: PK Shader

10a. Re: trying not working
From: droghedabullmastiff@comcast.net
10b. Re: trying not working
From: katkellm
10c. Re: trying not working
From: Andrea

11a. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
From: carnesbill

12a. Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
From: laura.wimpey
12b. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
From: Andrea

13a. Re: raw food compagnies in the USA
From: h h

Messages
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1a. Re: Buying from the source
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:20 am ((PST))

just google "meat processor + your state" and you should get a list of people to call. Some will be private contractors so to speak who go to peoples homes or farms and butcher animals on site for a fee. Others will require you to bring the animal to them. Both will cut to your specifications. The ones that come to your residance should let you keep the offal if you ask them ahead of time to save it. Otherwise they will charge you a "disposal fee" for getting rid of the animal waste etc. for you.

I know about this because I have recently been on a quest for local "waste" from deer, elk, and from small farmers, lol. Red tape is killing me! Processors can not give or sell me leftovers, I have to get there customer to ask to keep the stuff and then the "owner of the animal" needs to be the one to give or sell me the leftovers. Policies, ick! Oh well on with my hunt for yummie goodies!

Erika

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Messages in this topic (5)
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2. Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
Posted by: "Carla Spelt" fauvetnoir@bigpond.com fauvetnoir
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:20 am ((PST))

Has anyone noticed a difference in time bitches take between season
after switching to raw? I am planning to breed one of my bitches and
to keep her on raw food while she is pregnant. I understand that pups
from a bitch fed on raw while pregnant may be a little smaller when
born but will probably be stronger. The only thing that is puzzling me
is that she is very late coming in season. She's had regular seasons
approx 7 months apart but is now more than 8 months past her last
season. I have switched her to raw since her last season and just
wonder if it has anything to do with it? She is in great condition by
the way - looks better than she ever did on commercial food. I show my
dogs as well and ppl are often commenting on the great coats my dogs
have :-)

Carla Spelt
Fauvetnoir Belgian Shepherds
www.fauvetnoir.id.au
fauvetnoir@bigpond.com

Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
Posted by: "glamour.cupcakes" glamour.cupcakes@yahoo.com glamour.cupcakes
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:20 am ((PST))

I went back into the archives to read about gulpers and have gotten
some useful information.

Tonight, I had a really scary few minutes with my Chihuahua. She was
eating a couple of chicken gizzards (partially thawed) and she
choked for a few minutes, all the while making high-pitched noises
I've never heard from her before. She is 5 years old.

She has been a gulper ever since I fed her some pre-made raw mixes a
couple years ago (BIG mistake). So now she swallows everything she
thinks she can eat without so much as a chew. Thus, she has caused
lots of grief in me with choking every few days, but tonight's
scenario was just really, really frightening.

Do you have any tips for me on how to deal with a tiny gulper? She
is just 5lbs. What are some "safe" parts I can give her? I can't
offer her a whole chicken because that will take her over a week to
finish. At the same time, it has to be something big enough so she
definitely has to chew.

Also, what I worry about is if she manages to chew a big chunk out
of a big part I give her and choke on THAT.
I was worried about her choking before I started her on the raw diet
and now I have even more reason to be worried.

Any tips greatly appreciated! Thank you.

- Kay L.

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:48 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "glamour.cupcakes"
<glamour.cupcakes@...> wrote:
>
> Do you have any tips for me on how to deal with a tiny gulper?

Since you read the archives, I'm sure you have seen one or more of
my posts about dogs chewing. When relatively new to a raw diet,
dogs often don't know how large a piece they can swallow. They have
the ability to "bring back up" anything that was not chewed enough,
chew it a little more, and swallow it again. This often appears as
choking to the inexperienced owner.

> She is just 5lbs.

Size has notihing to do with anything other than often owners of
very small dogs "baby" them a little more and worry more when
something unexpected happens.

> What are some "safe" parts I can give her?

Any part she can't swallow whole.

> I can't offer her a whole chicken because that will take her
> over a week to finish. At the same time, it has to be
> something big enough so she definitely has to chew.

I'm not real experienced with very small dogs but at 5lbs I don't
think there is any part of a chicken that is too small for her. I
feed wings, legs, and thighs to my cats regularly.

> Also, what I worry about is if she manages to chew a big chunk out
> of a big part I give her and choke on THAT.

You can always find things to worry about. Dogs have choked to
death on kibble. It sounds like your dog is resolving her "problem"
on her own so I doubt seriously she is actually choking but rather
just bringing stuff back up to chew a little more.

> I was worried about her choking before I started her on the
> raw diet and now I have even more reason to be worried.

I don't think you have more reason to worry or even have any reason
to worry. Your dog is not a fragile as you act like she is. She
has handled all these problems ok.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: how much to feed a 4lb chihuahua?
Posted by: "glamour.cupcakes" glamour.cupcakes@yahoo.com glamour.cupcakes
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:20 am ((PST))

Can someone confirm the validity of the information provided below?
I would love to know as I feed my Chi partially thawed meat and she
has had seizures before...the vet couldn't figure it out.

Thanks!

- Kay L.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "typerzoid" <typerzoid@...> wrote:
> >
> >> Do you agree with leaving the meal slightly
> > frozen so he will eat it slower?
> >
> I remember reading in prior posts about frozen and even chilled
meat
> possibly causing seizures (?) in toy breeds. Something about it
> lowering their body temperature to a dangerous level.
> Jayne and Bodhi, Minpin Extrordinare
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. UPDATE to my Question RE: [rawfeeding] Pig Leg bones...
Posted by: "Eddie Scholten" shirl-ed@hotmail.com shirley11964
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:20 am ((PST))

I asked about whole pig leg bones:Are these safe as a good chew for a large dog? Or are then teeth-breakers?
I wish to make it clear that these bones do have some (not much at all) meat and sinew on them, and I only wonder if the effort of getting that meat off is a good thing for a dog (pup or older dog?) or if the bones are just not worth giving or are unsafe in any way?

Thanks,

Shirley.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: UPDATE to my Question RE: [rawfeeding] Pig Leg bones...
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Scholten <shirl-ed@...> wrote:
> I asked about whole pig leg bones:
>

Hi Shirley,
If there is any meat or sinew on any leg bone, i feed them to my dogs.
I make a cup of coffee and watch them pull the stuff off. When they
become bare naked bones, two of my dogs just leave them alone. My lab
will continue to eat anything at anytime in anyway, so i just take the
bone away from her and toss all of the bones in the garbage. So, i
would feed them, watch your dogs eat them, and toss the bone when you
see that the bones are stripped clean. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. UPDATE RE: [rawfeeding] Re: Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "Eddie Scholten" shirl-ed@hotmail.com shirley11964
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:20 am ((PST))

"Our 8 wks GR puppy still has loose stools since we began feeding him raw when we brought him home 6 days ago. Now, my fiance (who happily agreed to feed raw - but never did any research on the subject himself) is telling me that if the stools don't improve he will take the puppy off raw and seek vet advice!"

Thanks everybody for the support and advice.

I have my fiance back on board last night.
And as a bonus to that our pup's loose stools have overnight improved since feeding a meat only meal of chicken for the last meal yesterday. So much improved that I could pick them up this morning with the doggy-poop bag - (but there were still very soft)! ;)

Thanks again, and I will continue to check, balance and adjust for our GR pup, Floris.

Shirley
_________________________________________________________________
Nooit meer offline met Windows Live Messenger op je mobiele telefoon
http://www.getlivemobile.nl/

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Messages in this topic (13)
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7a. Re: Processing a duck??
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:20 am ((PST))

In a message dated 11/26/2007 5:59:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pbgs@delhitel.net writes:

I'm going to feed my dogs duck for the first time. I've no experience
with duck...LOL. Can I assume it would cut it like I would a
chicken??? Are the bones any more or less dense?

Nancy,

why cut a duck? they aren't any bigger than chickens, most i've ever done is
cut them in half so they feed two dogs instead of one..

other than that there isn't anything special about a duck. All their joints
are in the same places, no big deal. the legs are smaller and the wings are
longer, than chickens, but it's the same basic physiology.

the ONLY bones i don't feed to the dogs are beef femurs (soup bones, marrow
bones, dog bones, knuckle bones). Everything else with meat on it is offered
to the dogs and if they choose to eat it they do, and if they don't i get to
pick it up later.

Catherine R.

**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
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Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. variety
Posted by: "alimaxral" albrooker@bigpond.com alimaxral
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:15 am ((PST))

Hi

Can someome please explain why it is always recommended to have such a
long time on chicken before adding other meats slowly? If a dog seems
to be tolerating a varied diet early is there a concern that some sort
of reaction may occur within the first few weeks?

Alison

Messages in this topic (17)
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8b. Re: variety
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:28 am ((PST))

The recommended time span is a week or two, if your dog is fine, then
start adding a second protein source. In my book that's not such a
long time. Better be safe than sorry- give the digestive system a
chance to adjust to the new stuff.

Jennifer

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "alimaxral" <albrooker@...> wrote:

> Can someome please explain why it is always recommended to have such a
> long time on chicken before adding other meats slowly? If a dog seems
> to be tolerating a varied diet early is there a concern that some sort
> of reaction may occur within the first few weeks?

Messages in this topic (17)
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8c. Re: variety
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:57 am ((PST))

When switching to raw some/not all dogs go through a normal "cleansing" period where the system has to adjust to the new food. After that they settle and adding new foods gets confusing as you dont know what it is that affected them. So a slow- untill you see- is how different things are tolerated. Also unless it is a severe reaction it may take a few days to show up. After a couple weeks it is usually a safe bet. Even a house is built from the base first!!
My motto has been slow to add
More bone-firmmer stool
More meat- soft to runs..............
Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

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Messages in this topic (17)
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8d. Re: variety
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "alimaxral" <albrooker@...> wrote:
>
If a dog seems
> to be tolerating a varied diet early is there a concern that some sort
> of reaction may occur within the first few weeks?

Hi Alison,
If you are saying that you already started feeding raw and didn't
start on the chicken for a week approach and have been feeding lots
of variety and are doing fine, will you continue to do ok, probably.
Worst case scenario is that a dog will get loose stools, not to be
confused with diarrhea which is attributable to bacteria and can be an
illness, but a digestive snag that causes the owner lots of grief and
clean up but doesn't bother the dog in the least. If you haven't
started feeding raw yet, the object of the slow but steady approach is
that you are minimizing the chance of digestive snags and messy
cleanups by allowing the system a chance to build up to the the task
of processing an unfamiliar form of food before offering lots of
variety. KathyM

Messages in this topic (17)
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9a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "PK Shader" Forloveofdogs@gmail.com forloveofdogs
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "" <carnesw@...> wrote:

> > ginny wilken wrote: It's common to add meds to drinking water.
>>Obviously, they use a
>>ot more than would be necessary, as one can't be sure how much
> > a chick will drink.
> carnesbill wrote:
> It's not common to add chemicals to anything pertaining to chickens
> in the US. My brother owns and runs a factory chicken farm.

Mr. Carnes

I know this is a bit after the fact, but I am very curious to find out
what feed "exactly" your brother uses on his chicken farm. I have
been involved in many aspects of livestock raising from a small
homestead.to the largest self sufficient dairy in Oregon and many
things in between.

I raised true free range chickens for years and had to formulate my
own feed because it was impossible to buy chick starter feed that was
"without" medications. Even now I cannot find any feed formulated for
chickens at any of my local or otherwise farm feed stores because they
don't carry "chicken" feed that does not have meds already in the mix.

And since a normal chicken takes up to 5 months to mature may I assume
that your brother is farming the genetically engineered whites that
mature in 6 to 8 weeks? If so I know that (here in Wisconsin
according to our own farm extension service) if they are not given
large supplements of vitamin B, D and calcium daily their legs become
deformed and they will go down.

So if I am mistaken about this also, would you please tell me what
breed of chicken your brother raises so as not to have to use any type
of meds, or "chemicals" (supplements) in their solid diets or water
and still have healthy, fully mature birds in 8 weeks?

Thanks,

PK

PK Shader CSATSLL1, ABMA, ABS, AWA, CSATS Mentor
For Love of Dogs Canine/Human Relations Learning Center LLC
Walworth/Springfield, WI 53176
Office 262-248-0620 Cell 312-259-5305
Currently, and for the last 42 years, teaching humans to live in
harmony with their best friends.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/SATZ_Main/

www.forloveofdogs.pk

Messages in this topic (15)
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10a. Re: trying not working
Posted by: "droghedabullmastiff@comcast.net" droghedabullmastiff@comcast.net droghedabullmastiff
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:04 am ((PST))

I have not had good results feeding raw to my puppies{ can't get runny stools under control} spent a small fortune on meat and another one getting meds from vet. I am going back to Diamond adult Lamb & Rice that I have been using for many years with excellant results. Rose

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Messages in this topic (11)
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10b. Re: trying not working
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:26 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, droghedabullmastiff@... wrote:
>> I have not had good results feeding raw to my puppies{ can't get
runny stools under control} spent a small fortune on meat and another
one getting meds from vet. I am going back to Diamond adult Lamb &
Rice that I have been using for many years with excellant results.

Hi Rose,
I am sorry that you are having trouble with the diet, and i can
certainly understand how vet bills can tax a budget, especially in
this economy, but before you abandon ship and re enter the kibble
world, would you please give us more feeding details and allow us the
opportunity to possibly help straighten things out for you and
your pups? We work lots cheaper and get much better results than a
vet when it comes to raw feeding diet challenges.:) KathyM

Messages in this topic (11)
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10c. Re: trying not working
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:38 am ((PST))

Wait, Rose, don't give up yet. As far as I can tell you haven't posted
with any problems with the pups, right? How long have they been having
runny stools? What are they eating, how much and how often? Let us
try and help before you put them back on doom nuggets.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, droghedabullmastiff@... wrote:
>
>
>
> I have not had good results feeding raw to my puppies{ can't get
runny stools under control} spent a small fortune on meat and another
one getting meds from vet. I am going back to Diamond adult Lamb & Rice
that I have been using for many years with excellant results.

Messages in this topic (11)
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11a. Re: will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:26 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, recyclerat@... wrote:
>
> do bones bulk up the poop, or is it opposite?

Bone will firm to stools. Almost to the point of being hard as a rock.

> This morning gave him a big ole breakfast of half a chicken,
> and for dinner a tilapia...but he was begging me with those
> big browns for more later on..so i gave him some of the chicken
> leg bones from the other day when he was refusing his food (i
> ended up cutting meat off the bone for him and hand feeding.)

> too much bone?

No, probably too much food. Too large of meals will cause soft stools
as will too much fat early in the diet or too many organs early in the
diet. It sounds like he is getting too much to eat at one time. I
know you said he was underweight, but those pounds need to be put back
on gradually.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
Posted by: "laura.wimpey" laura.wimpey@yahoo.com laura.wimpey
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:26 am ((PST))

As mentioned in my subject it's week 4 of rawfeeding for my 30 lb
English Setter and my 55 lb mix that looks like an Italian Spinone
but is built like an English Lab (this is important to remember as
you follow along below....)

For the setter we are feeding her 2% of 30 lbs or about 9 oz per
day. Everything is fine and doodly with her. She's a feild type and
doesn't carry typical setter weight or girth.

For the mix, Elias, we are feeding 2% of 45 lbs of about 14 oz. per
day because 55 is a bit chunky on him - you can't feel ribs and he's
got this nice layer of fat but he's not FAT. Like I said, it's odd
to tell with him because he's built like an English Labrador...all
stocky and muscular, hidden power kind of thing even though he looks
like a goofy spinone. We have no idea what his parents were; we can
only guess.

Elias' food calculation is working strange - he's not loosing weight
and in fact is appearing more portly and content these days. He
exhibits no signs of hunger even though we are using a a low
calculation. He acts as if we are feeding enough and he's quite
happy not having more.

Their daily food: Our starter protein was wacked/quartered turkey for
first week (Chicken was a disaster of itchy proportions). Second
week goat was introduced as a red meat source combined with turkey.
Third week was off turkey and primarily goat bones and meaty meat
trimmings of beef and goat. We've introduced little organ aside from
the training treat of liver which is where they are getting their
organ intake now. No vomit after day 1. Stools were the usual
archive stuff - mucous, soft, slightly runny, midnight potty trips.
After a week they have been in good shape, firm, regular and everyone
is sleeping better for it.

Their daily excercise: access to a half acre fenced in yard all day
where they are together to run and play, 2 mile walk in the evenings
OR a 2 mile run 3 days a week. Saturdays we find somewhere they can
play off leash and every Wed. they go to a doggie day care on a farm
where they can play and run with other dogs.

So do I need to give this more time for him to drop some weight? Is
there some fallable point in my feeding calculation? Am I on the
right track to shed some pounds off him or is 55 lbs his 'happy
weight'? His stools have not indicated overfeeding since the first
few days.

Regards,
Laura W.

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:33 am ((PST))

Laura, it sounds like things are going well. I'm glad you guys were
able to get through the itchy failure that was chicken.

> Is there some fallable point in my feeding calculation?

Yes, only in the fact that the 2% calculation serves as a jumping off
point, not the destination. If your boy still looks portly after a
month of feeding 2%, decrease the amount of food a little bit. Some
dogs just don't need that much food to maintain a good weight.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. Re: raw food compagnies in the USA
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:46 am ((PST))

I havent heard anything about this, but then..I dont pay much attention to a whole lot of news. My best guess is that if it is an actual ongoing thing, it would be due to some problem with contamination possibly and it would only concern the premix raw. This would NOT concern regular for human use food, or stuff from slaughterhouses or private hunters, which is what I feed to my kids.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While the FDA trying to shut down Bravo and/or other premix raw places may not directly affect most of us here because we feed regular food from grocery stores/butchers/hunters/etc., it will indirectly affect us because the non-rawfeeders out there do not know the difference between the two and will only see that now even the FDA says that feeding raw is bad. :::sigh:::

Meanwhile my dogs and cats are going nutso over the start of the seasonal glut of deer scraps. <g> This year I lucked out doing my sanctioned dumpster dive, one of the dumpsters was filled with chunks of meat instead of the usual rib cages, legs, and heads. I ended up with five bags of ribs and rib cages and three bags of boneless deer chunks!.

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

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