[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12313

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
From: atmanandadevotee
1b. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
From: jennifer_hell
1c. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
From: Marc Gemis

2a. comfort levels. bacteria, raw feeding...
From: Michelle R
2b. Re: comfort levels. bacteria, raw feeding...
From: jennifer_hell

3a. Re: 11 year old bulldog
From: monicanation7
3b. Re: 11 year old bulldog
From: monicanation7

4. raw feeding....inside/out, using pens and vinyl cloths
From: Michelle R

5a. Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
From: Sallie Taylor
5b. Re: Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
From: katkellm

6. Welcome newbie Peggy...advice
From: Michelle R

7a. Re: Bacteria and RAW
From: ada
7b. Re: new to my golden
From: Marjet Wolbertus
7c. Re: new to my golden
From: Casey Post

8a. Re: Preparing Quail
From: costrowski75

9a. Puppy having bad diarrhea
From: Jen
9b. Re: Puppy having bad diarrhea
From: Casey Post
9c. Re: Puppy having bad diarrhea
From: Michelle R

10.1. Salmon Oil
From: cynthiashankman

11a. Support when making the switch?
From: Michelle R
11b. Re: Support when making the switch?
From: mmc2315

12a. Re: I am scared silly
From: costrowski75
12b. Re: I am scared silly
From: delcaste

13. Loose Stool issues
From: Sylvia Tetzlaff

Messages
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1a. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
Posted by: "atmanandadevotee" atmanandadevotee@yahoo.fr atmanandadevotee
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Michal Cline" <Mcline30@...>
wrote:
>
> I an fairly new to raw feeding (a little over 2 months) and have 2
> parti Standard Poodles from the States. Both boys are doing VERY
> well with their new diet although Victor,(17 kilo) the 3 year old
> needs to have his food hand feed to him. Yes, he is spoiled. Aramis,
> (25 kilo)the 2 year old, just chews away with much pleasure.
>
> My problem is: we live in a small fishing village outside
Montpellier
> so no problem getting Omega 3, fresh sardines and mackeral is
> inexpensive, but the cost of meat including chicken is
astronomical.
>
> I know from reading the material provided through this site that
they
> need variety. Is there anyone here who knows of a group in France
> where we can get red meat at a reasonable price? Chicken here is
at
> least 2,98 euros a kilo which comes out to over 2 dollars a pound.
> Red meat starts at about 6 euros a kilo. We spent at least 40 euros
a
> week on dog food! To my knowledge most here feed kibble.
>
> I feed mostly chicken halved or in quarters and when I can liver,
> heart, and tongue from pig, beef and lamb, and eggs. The problem
is
> that the French eat almost all parts of animals so they are not
ever
> on sale!
>
> BTW, this is an incredible group and I thank everyone for all the
> information on raw feeding! What a difference!
>
> Michal in Southern France
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Michal Cline" <Mcline30@...> wrote:

> I know from reading the material provided through this site that they
> need variety. Is there anyone here who knows of a group in France
> where we can get red meat at a reasonable price? Chicken here is at
> least 2,98 euros a kilo which comes out to over 2 dollars a pound.
> Red meat starts at about 6 euros a kilo. We spent at least 40 euros a
> week on dog food!

You'll be able to find a butcher on the countryside that will let you
have the stuff that is left over after trimming the meat. Also tripe.
Start looking around and make contact with local breeders. There will
be an association of farmers and/ or breeders in your region/ or the
adjoining département. Ask there where you can get stuff for cheap. I
pay 3 Euros per kilo for free range chicken here, it's worth it to me.
I feed it only once a week. Right now I feed a lot of venison, which
is in season right now and available for little money. I have an extra
freezer which I stock up with about 80 kilos of venison to last me
over the year.
You need to go out and ask around. You might need to drive farer away,
but then you can stock up.

Jennifer from Germany (who had to find sources, too- and was successful)

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
Posted by: "Marc Gemis" marc.gemis@pandora.be xianbowie
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:40 am ((PST))

Hallo Michal,

I live in Belgium and I can tell you that the prices here are about the
same. We most of the time spend our holidays in France (last year it was
Bordeaux, this year it was the Bourgogne area.) I must say that this year I
found a lot of lamb at extremely cheap prices (compared to Belgium)
Our supermarkets do sales at -50% last day they can sell the meat.
Especially on a Saturday evening, when they are not open on Sunday, you can
buy a lot of meat on half the price.
Good luck !
Tinne

---
Marc Gemis & Tinne Van Hooydonck
The Whippets :
* Renko Di Mahana - Belgian Coursing Champion 1996
* Ch. L'Entente Cordiale Xtraxian - Belgian Coursing Champion 2000
* Ch. Moonlake Making Sure (Bowie) - WCD Clubsieger 2003, NWC winner 2005
* Edi Finn aus dem Gnomenhain (Funky)
Our Groenendael :
* Princesse des Perles Noires (Ixelle)
http://users.pandora.be/whippet
http://xian.smugmug.com

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. comfort levels. bacteria, raw feeding...
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

At my house, my kids mostly eat outside, (on grass) unless it happens to be a ground beef meal, which they can eat inside out of a bowl (still have the 2 who wont take it from a bowl and get hand fed). Since winter seems to have finally settled in here ( MS, USA) and I have nekkid babies,(Chinese Cresteds) even with their warm winter fleecies on, its very cold for them to continue eating outside as they have been.
My friend/mentor uses a steam cleaner on her floor and I really love the idea of cleaning, really sanitizing without the use of alot of harsh chemicals, such as bleech. I do admit I use a cholox cleaner on the counter after Ive been preparing the raw stuff. I am a bit of a germ-a-phob tho. I even wipe doorknobs and everything. ;-)
I am new to raw tho and I expect as I get more comfortable, I will not be as phobic about my cleaning.
;-)
I have either vinyl flooring or hardwood thru-out the house, so cleaning will be easy, esp on the vinyl.

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: comfort levels. bacteria, raw feeding...
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:40 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:

> I have either vinyl flooring or hardwood thru-out the house, so
cleaning will be easy, esp on the vinyl.
>

Why not use these wax table cloths, and feed them in a pen, like those
available for human babies? =)

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: 11 year old bulldog
Posted by: "monicanation7" monicanation@hvc.rr.com monicanation7
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

thanks very much !
i threw down some turkey neck and she
didn't go for it - but loves beef shank
no more grinding - i'll check archives for
some add'l tips.
best,
monica
-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "monicanation7" <monicanation@> wrote:
> >> hi i'm new to the group and wanted some advice about portions and
> suppliments.
> *****
> This part is easy: feed 2%-3% of your dog's ideal adult weight using
> a variety of animal proteins and a variety of body parts. Use
> supplements if and when specific issues require them.
> Supplementing "just because" is like throwing darts in the dark.
>
>
> my
> > bulldog began showing signs of arthritis - was limping etc and had
> a really dry nose - an
> > eye was starting to get a white film - scary!
> *****
> How old is your bulldog?
>
>
> anyway since i started her on raw meat - i
> > started with ground beef adding carrots - parsley - flax seed -
> brewers yeast - beef hearts
> > ground - liver ground - made into patties - froze it and kept three
> days in the fridge at a
> > time - (we call it the meat drop) he arthritis is gone - her nose
> is wet - her skin has
> > blackened where it had "faded" and her eye is totally healed. she
> lost about 7 (un-needed)
> > pounds and looks like a puppy - so i am sure i'm on the right path -
> even at this late stage
> > in the game.
> *****
> This is exceptionally good fortune. While her current menu is not
> optimal in several areas, it does provide clear evidence that kibble
> sucks. Imagine what you will be doing for her when you stop feeding
> her plant matter and ground meats and start feeding her a good
> species appropriate diet! Zounds!
>
> She doesn't need ground anything. She doesn't need patties. She
> needs edible bone for nutrients (including but not limited to
> calcium), for dental hygiene, for physical and mental amusement. And
> you don't need the extra work. Better to spend "prep" time looking
> for lovely meaty body parts that will never see the inside of a
> grinder.
>
>
> my vet said that raw chicken can kill a dog via salmonella
> > (sp) and under no circumstances should i feed the dog raw chicken -
> and she basically
> > looked at me like i was killing my dog by feeding it raw -
> like "you'll see" - i didn't stop
> > the diet but stopped chicken.
> *****
> This is one of an undereducated vet's primary threats. Baloney.
>
> Feed chicken knowing FULL well that a dog's digestive system is
> different from a human's, and that any animal that licks its butt and
> genitals and eats dead things and cat poop and worms is not bothered
> by raw chicken. Know also that kibble is similarly burdened with
> bacteria not to mention other germy "contaminants". Fear of germs
> runs deep in the medical profession.
>
> You may be doing your girl some injustice by feeding ground meat and
> veggie patties but you are a LONG way from killing her. If you're
> interested, we have any number of references you can give to your
> misguided vet. At the very least you should definitely check out:
>
> http://rawfed.com
> http://rawfeddogs.net

>
>
> - no i'm reading that grinding the meat is not good and she
> > should have pieces etc.. with bone..
> > what exactly should i ask my butcher for?
> *****
> These questions have been asked and answered thousands of times, no
> fooling. Please take some time to browse the message archives. If
> you do not have access Yahoogroups, please join (it's easy) and go
> the Rawfeeding home page and proceed to poke around in the hoard of
> information the archives provide.
>
> --what to tell the butcher you want (don't ask, tell)
> --what are organs and what are not and how to feed either
> --what are "wreck" bones and how not to fall victim to them
> --why vegetables are neither useful nor recommended
> --why feeding larger meals once a day (or less) may benefit your dog
>
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: 11 year old bulldog
Posted by: "monicanation7" monicanation@hvc.rr.com monicanation7
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

thanks for the feedback!
monica
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "monicanation7"
> <monicanation@> wrote:
> >
> > i
> > started with ground beef adding carrots - parsley - flax seed -
> brewers yeast - beef hearts
> > ground - liver ground - made into patties - froze it and kept
> three days in the fridge at a
> > time - (we call it the meat drop)
>
>
> > two questions- my vet said that raw chicken can kill a dog
> > via salmonella
> > (sp) and under no circumstances should i feed the dog raw
> > chicken
>
> Your vet needs to study the physiology of a dog. Something she
> should have spend a great deal of time doing in vet school. Dogs
> stomach acids are very very strong. Strong enough to kill and
> salmonella or e-coli or other such bacteria. The intestines are
> short enough that food is expelled from be body before any more can
> form. Salmonella just isn't a problem for dogs.
>
> I have fed my dogs raw chicken every day for over 5 years. I can't
> remember any digestive upset in the last 3 or 4 of those years.
>
> > i didn't stop
> > the diet but stopped chicken.
>
> Feed chicken. Its good for your dog. The bones will do wonders for
> his teeth. Don't grind it. Feed whole chicken parts.
>
> > what exactly should i ask my butcher for?
>
> You can feed whole chickens, half chickens, chicken quarters or
> individual chicken parts depending on the size of your dog. You can
> feed any part of the chicken, turkey, pig, cow, rabbit, goat, lamb
> that you want except maybe the intestines and stomach.
>
> > shoud i cut a piece of liver and or heart and just
> > throw it into the bowl?
>
> Yes
>
> > how much?
>
> Just a little to begin with. Add more over time when you are sure
> it doesn't cause digestive upset. You don't really need to feed
> much. I feed just a glob once a week or so. Maybe 1/2lb each to my
> Great Danes.
>
> > plus lots of marrow bones
>
> I wouldn't feed marrow bones. Too hard on teeth. I don't feed any
> beef bones at all.
>
> > what about parsley - carrots etc.. is
> > this a waste to give her?
>
> Yes, absolutely. Dogs are carnivores. They don't need nor can they
> properly digest veggies and friuts and grains.
>
> > i'm a believer in the diet - you'd be foolish to feed your
> > dog anything else!
>
> Exactly!
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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4. raw feeding....inside/out, using pens and vinyl cloths
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:19 am ((PST))

Oh Ive got plenty of ex pens and even have those cheapo vinyl table cloths too...
I have dutch doors so keeping them in one room or another isnt a problem. They would not have free range of the whole house (never do anyway)
Thanks for the suggestion tho, much appreciated.
:-)

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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5a. Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
Posted by: "Sallie Taylor" treterra@yahoo.com treterra
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:29 am ((PST))

Want to begin "real" raw feeding for both dogs listed above. Bullmastiff is on 1/2 Nature's Variety and 1/2 Enova Evo now. What do I feed, how much do I feed, and how often? What to watch for to monitor success?

Thanks, Sallie

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5b. Re: Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:24 am ((PST))

Sallie Taylor <treterra@...> wrote:
>
> Want to begin "real" raw feeding for both dogs listed above.
Bullmastiff is on 1/2 Nature's Variety and 1/2 Enova Evo now. What
do I feed, how much do I feed, and how often? What to watch for to
monitor success?
*****
Get rid of the commercial food. Buy two chickens. Feed the
bullsmastiff one of the chickens, probably best to give half at one
meal and the other half as the second meal. The pup will get the same
total amount, just feed through the chicken in smaller meals, say
three meals.

Save the necks, gizzards, hearts and livers for later. Actually give
the necks and gizzards to a cat. The hearts and livers you can feed
later to your dogs.

Do the same thing tomorrow. If the dogs have loose stools, feed less
chicken and/or remove the skin.

Do the same thing the next day.

I urge to you joing Yahoogroups in order to access the list
archives. Your questions have been asked and answered thousands of
times before. There's little reason other than inertia for you not
to use the archives as a major learning tool. Also check out:

http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net

When in doubt, reduce and simplify.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Bullmastiff 5 yrs and Boerboel pup
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:38 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sallie Taylor <treterra@...> wrote:
>
> Want to begin "real" raw feeding for both dogs listed above.
Bullmastiff is on 1/2 Nature's Variety and 1/2 Enova Evo now. What do
I feed, how much do I feed, and how often? What to watch for to
monitor success?

Hi Sallie,
The best thing to do is stop feeding the kibble and start feeding raw,
no transitioning or mixing, out with the kibble, in with the raw.
Chicken is normally the recommended starting protein because it comes
with lots of meat, some bone, is easy to dole out into appropriate
size pieces, and is cheapest and easiest to find. You want to feed 2%
of your dog's ideal adult weight per day. If you feed once a day now,
i would stick with once a day. If you feed twice a day, you can stick
with that for now if you want to. For your puppy, you want to feed 2%
of his ideal ADULT weight per day. Since you didn't state the pup's
age, i will say that you definitely want to feed at least 2 meals a
day, maybe 3, if the puppy is under 6 months. You will want to feed
chicken for a week and see how things go. Since you have big dogs, no
wings unless they are still attached to the bird and no necks. Any
other variation of chicken, breasts, halves, quarters, will enable you
to say you fed through the whole bird. Success is usually talked
about, during the introduction period, in terms of loose stools. Loose
stools, though a pita to the owner, don't bother the dog and normally
result from too much food, too much new food too quickly, too much
fat, too much organ meat fed too soon. HTH,KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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6. Welcome newbie Peggy...advice
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:29 am ((PST))

Peggy, Hello and welcome to the list. I know others will chime in here, but I will go ahead and add my 2 cents worth. :-)
Many, if not most breeders who feed raw will wean their pups directly onto raw. Your breeder knows what the pup has already been eating and since shes feeding raw, she knows best in this situation. If the pup didnt eat, it was probably the stress of moving, new home, new family, new smells, etc. If he didnt eat, he just wasnt ready to eat. K***le is a bad word. It contains very addictive type stuff and smells to intice the pup. He ate as any child would eat, if offered only a bowl of candy for dinner. My advice, ditch the nasty k***le and go back to what hes been rasied on and what he knows and what you already know is best for him. :-) Its like "they" say...no dog will starve with food in front of him. Also, since I am a breeder and know what goes into any responsibly bred litter by a dedicated breeder.... I will say that I can guarantee your breeder would appreciate a phone call to discuss this and please please please do NOT feed any more k***le!

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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7a. Re: Bacteria and RAW
Posted by: "ada" mom2moz@yahoo.com mom2moz
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:30 am ((PST))

--- Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
> Good for you! That is a far healthier approach for
> you, your pets and your family. While I believe in
> normal handwashing and cleaning up my kitchen,
> etc., the reason we have things like MRSA is because
> of our fear of bacteria which has led to overuse and
> misuse of disinfectants, antibacterial soaps
> and antibiotics! Vinegar and hydrogen peroxide will
> do nicely. :))
>
> From: "Mystykalsky" <jacklab@nbnet.nb.ca>
> I have 3 kids here and I can certainly say that I
> DON"T handle the food carefuly.. NOT ONE BIT...
> my door handles are handled by ME full of raw food
> on them and I think of cleaning them..but NEVER
> do... SO I have to wonder about this sometimes..
>
While you're right about we humans creating the
SUPERgerms, the fact is that they ARE here. Until
you've almost lost your only child to staph - and
then, you fight it yourself after heart surgery, I
guess one can afford to hold to such a cavalier attitude. Yes,
vinegar and hydrogen peroxide will do nicely - I use
diluted vinegar and just scrub up my cutting boards
w/soap and hot water. But, I think it's flirting with
disaster to admit NEVER taking even the most basic
precautions of cleaning.

ada
mo (silkie/shih-tzu/maltese mutt) & abbie (yorkie)

"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole." ~ Roger Caras

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7b. Re: new to my golden
Posted by: "Marjet Wolbertus" marjetwolbertus@sbcglobal.net marjetsf
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

Thank you for the great support. 3 weeks ago she had a grand mal
seizure and shocked the hell out of us. Vet said there was nothing
wrong with her after blood tests. She has weight issues and the vet
placed her on rd diet, she is 4 and weighs 93 lbs. a very tall golden
retriever. only eats 1 cup am and 1 pm plus 1/4 cup of r/d wet food
is always starving, now she is loosing weight, but I feel like she is
eating cardboard. So I am going to start with the chicken, tonite, 1/2
chicken outside on the lawn to see how she handles it. I think she
will love it. According to her weight I figure she needs about 2 lbs.
a day?

Marjet Wolbertus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: new to my golden
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:17 am ((PST))

>3 weeks ago she had a grand mal
> seizure and shocked the hell out of us. Vet said there was nothing
> wrong with her after blood tests. She has weight issues

Seizure and weight issues - I would definitely get this dog screened for
hypothyroidism, if you haven't already. Vets will too often run a simple T4
and declare all within range and leave it at that, but a full six panel
thyroid test is what's really needed for diagnosis.

>So I am going to start with the chicken, tonite, 1/2
> chicken outside on the lawn to see how she handles it. I think she
> will love it. According to her weight I figure she needs about 2 lbs.
> a day?

You say that she is tall - what should her ideal weight be, do you think?
Because that's what you base your starting amount on - what they *should*
weigh as a healthy adult. You can always adjust from there up or down as
needed...

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Preparing Quail
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:36 am ((PST))

"glamour.cupcakes" <glamour.cupcakes@...> wrote:
> My question is, am I supposed to just look for puncture wounds on
> the quail? If I see none, then it should be safe, right?
*****
Yes, if you are feeding whole, fully feathered quail you should check
for shot pellets.

> I just bought a pack of three quails from an ethnic market and from
> what I see, they have been gutted, although all the body parts
> (minus head) is still in place. If it's sold in a supermarket, they
> should have been checked over already for lead pellets, am I correct?
*****
For these however--and other dressed and processed birds--the most
important thing is the remove the packaging before giving the birds to
one's dog or cat. Commercially acquired birds are good to go.
Chris O

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9a. Puppy having bad diarrhea
Posted by: "Jen" wolfiejack@gmail.com esmreldajg
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

I currently have one 2 year old border collie mix on raw. He has done
beautifully on it since switching him a year ago.

I have a 9 week old border collie puppy that I've had for a week and a
half. Mom was raw fed but the pups were weaned onto Timberwolf
Organics kibble. I brought him home one evening and started him on
raw the next day.

This is not going well.

He is having horrible, watery diarrhea. I have only been feeding
chicken leg quarters or chicken thighs. I divide his meals into 3 to
4 feedings per day. I've tried removing the skin, using less bone...
nothing is helping.

While digestive upset in my big dog is not a big deal, I don't want my
puppy going through diarrhea any longer than this. My boss (vet)
would have a fit if he knew this was still going on. The pup is
acting normal, maybe a little less energy today. Fecals have all been
negative. He had normal stools when I first brought him home. I
don't want him getting dehydrated. He actually had diarrhea in his
crate while I was out of the house for an hour, which is not the way I
wanted housetraining to go (he's been perfect otherwise).

Any advice?

-Jen
Wolfie CGC, border collie mix
Scorch, border collie

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9b. Re: Puppy having bad diarrhea
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:19 am ((PST))

> He is having horrible, watery diarrhea. I have only been feeding
> chicken leg quarters or chicken thighs. I divide his meals into 3 to
> 4 feedings per day. I've tried removing the skin, using less bone...
> nothing is helping.

Is it possible that you're overfeeding him? Simple overfeeding can lead to
very loose stools.

My other thought is that not all dogs do well on chicken (and you should
check the labels to make sure you're not feeding enhanced chicken, as that
too can cause loose stools in some dogs). I would change meats and see if
it makes a difference for him.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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9c. Re: Puppy having bad diarrhea
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:38 am ((PST))

If youve had him on raw for 3 to 5 days, I would expect some runny and very loose stools at this time...hes blowing out the crap build up from eating the yucky K***le. I had a few here with that problem around that time in our switch, and my mentor advised me its fairly normal. From what Ive learned, I would suggest more bone, removing the skin and perhaps a bit of pumpkin.
In a pup so young, the concern for dehydration arises. Since you work for a vet, you will know all the more traditional things like sub-q fluids and flagyl to settle his tummy. But, to do it more naturally and get him adjusted and over this "hump", I personally would try adding more bone, removing the skin (high fat content) and add a spoon of pumpkin in to help firm up his stools.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more Im not entirely certain his stools are primarily diet based, bringing a 9 wk old pup to a brand new environment, I would almost expect some loose stools just from the stress of the move and exposure to the new smells and germs.... its not that you or your existing dog were overly germy, but you do have NEW germs to which this pup has just has his first exposure. As you work for a vet, and the pups 9 wks, Id imagine hes just had a set of shots recently as well? All of this, plus switching his diet....Id worry if he didnt have loose stools. The diet changes/additions above, plus a little time to adjust, should fix him right up tho.
Do watch him for fever tho..pup that young, those symptoms, plus fever... some nasty things come to mind. Contact me offlist if you want, I was a vet tech for ...ever, lol
Sorry if I rambled a bit..alot of angles on that one I had to work out in my head and I just typed as they came to me. :-)
Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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10.1. Salmon Oil
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

Is there a guideline on how much salmon oil to give a dog? My dog
weighs 30 lbs. The capsules I have contain 1000 mg. of oil.

Thank you.

Cindi

Messages in this topic (127)
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11a. Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:01 am ((PST))

Hello, Michelle here. I have a question and sorry if this is offtopic. I am wondering what sort of problems you folks faced from family and friends when switching to raw? I am under a verbal barage of questions and really ridiculous ass-umations on the part of some friends and all of my family (except my daughter, lol) I was nearly assaulted over thanksgiving. I was "informed" I am
A) giving my dogs worms and other parasites
B) feeding them e-coli, salmonella and other horrible things
C) asked how I could afford such a diet, its too enpensive and far too much work and whereever was I finding time?
D) informed I had to add very expensive supplements to balance a crazy unbalance raw diet
E) informed that by handling the raw food I was going to subject myself to all the same parasites and disease I was now feeding my dogs (we are all gonna die, basically)
F ) informed that all the barf crap was just that.... a bunch of CRAP and I was told flatout that I was stupid to think otherwise.
G) How could I ever know how much to feed, its not like each bite was balanced?
I was not allowed to defend myself or my choices, I know the answers to all of these issues (most of which are just ignorance based, they simply do not know any better), I have all the information right here, in my head, and no one was interested in hearing it. They simply wished to strike out, but did not allow me to share my knowledge with them. I got up from the table and just left the room. :-(

Now most of these came from my family...I come from a family of dog folks who are quite knowledgeable, but apparently just as brainwashed as perhaps I used to be. My family has deep roots in western medicine and all things traditional.

I am seeking an all natural approach to my dogs diet and health. I am already seeing the dental benefits on my dogs, they chew bones= they have less tarter...I SEE this happening every single day. My dogs love meal time, they are not choking and dieing on these supposed evil bones. I see an improvement (even after a very short time) in skin and coat and general mental health. This can not be a bad thing. This is what they were designed to eat. What bothers me is my trusted family, what should be my primary source of support, has really let me down. I can not share my joy over seeing less tarter on their teeth(really wish I had taken pictures to document the change, its wonderful) with my family...I can not share how happy I am with the differences Im seeing in just general well being of my dogs. Because when I try, I am met with skepticism and down right meanness. This really has surprised me. I know feeding raw is a personal choice, it is not for
everyone. I acknowledge and respect this, but when every peiece of information I can find backs up what I know deep in my heart and soul to be right, I have only one choice and that is to continue to feed my kids what I KNOW is best for them. Im sticking with RAW!
So forgive me fellow listers if I seek emotional support here more than what might be typical of a newbie, I need you folks more now than ever!

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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11b. Re: Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:38 am ((PST))

Michelle R wrote:

> B) feeding them e-coli, salmonella and other horrible things

Hi, yeah, I've been given the business by a couple friends who are experienced dog
owners. They've being nice enough, and probably figure dh & I need the advice since this
is the first dog we've had as adults.

One friend thinks dogs absolutely need the carbohydrates and veggies. The other friend,
a kibble feeder, passed on what her vet said: that they do see cases of salmonella
poisoning in dogs and raw has its real dangers. Another friend believes in raw, but in
BARF.

It doesn't bother me at all. I listen, and then usually hit the computer to look things up
and try to make the best decision based on what I know and what I've learned.

I do appreciate this list so much, and have filed away a bunch of helpful things in my head.
One of them is, if we ever take the dog into the vet for an illness, to make sure the vet can
see past the raw diet and not miss something important because the vet is quick to blame
it all on raw.

Michelle

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: I am scared silly
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:07 am ((PST))

"mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:
> Okay, I am convinced. Rawfeeding is the way to go.
*****
LOL
There is a huge disconnect between your subject line and the
sentence "I am convinced." Seems to me your imagination has run amok
here. You are wasting valuable engergy being scared silly and being
terrified is probably more self-serving than you want to be. When
was the last time you breathed? Please, calm yourself.

FWIW, I blew off raw feeding for like two years because the way it
was presented to me was IMO excessively complicated and had some
pretty iffy logic behind it. But when my picky golden was on day
three of not eating his healthy kibble and out of desperation (not
terror) I bought a package of chicken wings and by gawd he ate them
in an flash (and safely), I knew all my previous thinking had been an
utter waste of time and energy.

I recommend you stop analyzing this and, as they say, just do it.

But these are MY dogs, and I am scared
> to death that the one time it happens, it will be when I put down
> that first chicken quarter.
*****
I think having a great surge of emotion is very rewarding. It feels
good to be so passionate about something, anything. But your terror
is counterproductive. Not only is it getting in the way of your
pets' healthier diet, it is preventing you from thinking straight.
As is often the case with a good cry, get it out of your system and
then move on.

If you feed properly--the right size food for the animal and you keep
your wits about you--you are not at all likely to kill a dog or cat,
not now, not ever. The chances of crappy food killing a pet is much
higher.

> I am sorry to sound like a neurotic mess, but....has anyone else
ever
> felt this way before taking the plunge?
*****
Actually I think you're rather enjoying it! Rechannel this huge dose
of energy into enthusiasm and action! Most people have some degree
of worry when they start. This will be reduced as your experience
grows, as the experience of your pets grows, and as you continue to
read and learn and internalize. You've got training wheels on your
new bike, your got pages and pages of instruction, you've got
hundreds of competent people standing by to provide support: it's
time to get on the bike.

> BTW, would you recommend a breast or a leg quarter as a first meal
> for a largish (10 1/2 lb.) 5 yr. old Pomeranian? Or does it matter?
*****
A half breast is usually what I start visiting dogs on; the ribs are
easy peasy and the half breast size is not likely to produce the "too
much too soon" loose stools. Remove the skin if you'd prefer. I
think a leg quarter is too much food and too much bone too soon.
However, a leg quarter from a Cornish game hen would be lovely.

> And for a Sheltie puppy, about 4 1/2 - 5 months, 18-19 lbs?
*****
Same thing. A pup that age needs at least two meals, anything larger
than a half breast for one of those meals would probably be too
much. I tend to err on the side of less rather than more when I
start a new dog.

I know
> the dogs both like raw beef, I got a lb. of stew meat for Foxy's
> fifth b-day and between the two of them, they ate it all in two days
> (only because I parceled it out as a snack, a bite at a time!)
*****
Actually, that's a good way to introduce new meats--little by little,
bite by bite. Feeding a whole pile of something new is a terrific
way to produce stools you don't have to have to clean up.

I
> know most people start out with chicken, but since I already know
> they both like beef, would it be okay to give some along with bony
> chicken parts during the first week, or should I focus on serving
> larger chunks of a single kind of meaty bone, like a chicken leg
> quarter?
*****
They're your dogs. You can introduce raw however you want. If what
you choose doesn't work out like you had hoped, you back off,
simplify, start over.

IMO rawfeeders with some experience under their belts tend to be more
cavalier about starting since they have a pretty good notion of what
they are doing and what the likely results are. However, a brand
spanking newcomer--especially one who's wound herself into a tizzy--
might do better starting out with the most simple food available.
Which in most cases is chicken.

Good luck!
Breathe!
Smile!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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12b. Re: I am scared silly
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:38 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:
>
> +++++++Mod note: pls sign your emails +++++++++
>
>
> Okay, I am convinced. Rawfeeding is the way to go.

Yes, raw is the way to go, you are right ;) I was scared, too, before
taking the plunge. One of my dogs is a gulper, terrible gulper, and I
am now feeding her very large pieces of food, for her, she's a 20 pd
pug, it's large enough to slow her down. Just remember, keep the food
big and complicated so they have to eat slowly. I'll give my gulper a
6/7inch goat leg (or bigger) with lots of meat on it or an entire
rabbit. Sometimes half a cornish hen and the other pug eats the rest.
These meals are big enough so that she can put her paw on it and rip
and tear at the meat. It seems to me that she has more problems when
the food is in small pieces that she can inhale easily.

I think that when I was feeding the pugs their correct portions of
food everyday, they were hungry all the time and were always gulping
their dinner. Now, I'm letting them eat more one day and feeding them
less the next day and so on, so that they are satisfied and less
prone to gulp. Hope this helps.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (6)
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13. Loose Stool issues
Posted by: "Sylvia Tetzlaff" stetzlaff@yahoo.com stetzlaff
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:53 am ((PST))

Hello, folks,

I'm relatively new to raw feeding (and this group), and I've learned the hard way about adding a new meat source (too much, too soon). I had gotten the impression from reading posts on the one of the other Yahoo raw groups that all meals needed to include bone, but since I joined this group, I've learned that the diet should be mostly meat (meaty red meat), some bone, and some organ meat.

So I eagerly fed my two Poms some steak yesterday for their meals. Big mistake. I've been cleaning up after my little girl all morning. It hasn't affected her appetite, but my little guy refuses to eat now.

My question is, how much new meat should I add to a tolerated meat source (in my case, chicken, which they are both doing well on), and how soon? Will their stools eventually firm up after a meal of just meaty meat? Or do I follow up a meaty meat meal in the a.m. with a bone-in meal in the p.m.?

My other problem is that both dogs are not very big (one is 10.4 lbs, the other is 11.4), and I have to feed my girl big pieces to keep her from trying to swallow things whole. They both get 5-6 ounces a day, so do I add small pieces of beef or other red meat to their daily chicken pieces, and gradually increase the amount of beef and decrease the amount of chicken?


Thanks,


Sylvia
2 Poms, 1 Manx, and a messy carpet

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