[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12310

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Red Meats?
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Red Meats?
From: jennifer_hell
1c. Red Meats?
From: Monica A. Joy
1d. Re: Red Meats?
From: costrowski75
1e. Re: Red Meats?
From: miensasis
1f. Re: Red Meats?
From: T Smith
1g. Re: Red Meats?
From: T Smith
1h. Re: Red Meats?
From: Sandee Lee
1i. Re: Red Meats?
From: T Smith

2.1. Re: Newbie
From: Dawn Taylor
2.2. Re: Newbie
From: carnesbill
2.3. Re: Newbie
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: S.O.S and venison ribs in NE Michigan
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: duck, duck, goose
From: Caren OConnor
4b. Re: duck, duck, goose
From: Rebecca Little

5.1. Re: Introduction
From: carnesbill
5.2. Re: Introduction
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Doh. i read the archives!
From: costrowski75

7a. goose
From: h h

8. Veal???
From: miensasis

9a. Re: Bacteria and raw feeding.
From: miensasis

10a. Re: Need to share the excitement!!
From: Gayle
10b. Re: Need to share the excitement!!
From: jennifer_hell

11a. Re: Chew treats?
From: eyed_blue
11b. Re: Chew treats?
From: eyed_blue

Messages
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1a. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:28 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Confused as usual :-)

Because you are still too hung up on numbers. Forget numbers and
just feed your dog.

> Heart is not considered an organ when feeding but is it
> considered RED meat?

A heart is made up almost entirely of muscle and fat(meat). If you
are feeding beef heart, of course it's red meat. I don't know what
chicken hearts are considered and don't care. It means nothing to
me. It is inconsequential. There is no reason to wonder.

> I know that may sound like a stupid question but I am not sure if i
> count it as red meat.

It counts as meat. Period. Thats it. Meat. Forget red and white.

> Also, I had asked before but did not see any reply. How much
> red meat should be average fed?

It doens't matter. It makes no difference. It is unimportant.
It's a number. You don't feed numbers. You feed raw meat, bones,
and organs in no particular ratio. Mostly meat, some bones, and
some organs.

> Of course, some of my dogs HATE liver & I forgot what else
> is considered organ?

Kidney, spleen, lung, pancreas, etc.

> I know 5% needs to be liver so we will cross that bridge one dog at
> a time :-)

There you go feeding numbers again. Numbers have no nutrition.
Feed ONLY meat, bones and organs. Mostly meat, some bone and some
organ.

> I think I should start adding a bit of red meats &
> varieties now.....

Variety is good. Feed some of that.

> So, what are red meat?

Red meat is meat from livestock.

> What % should be red meat?

Whatever you want to feed. Do not feed numbers. Feed meat, bones,
and organs in whatever porportions work for your dogs. They will
tell you when you get out of bounds.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

> Thanks,
> Trina
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:

> Of course, some of my dogs HATE liver & I forgot what else is considered
> organ? I know 5% needs to be liver so we will cross that bridge
one dog at
> a time :-) I need to know what other organs are out there that I
can get.

My girl eats her liver cut into small pieces and mixed with green
tripe,or some ground dried tripe (I think she would eat anything mixed
with tha, lol!), or some grated parmesan. Same goes for spleen and kidney.

> I think I should start adding a bit of red meats & varieties now.....
> So, what are red meat? What % should be red meat?
I try not to feed more than 50% total of the same protein source.
That's all. 5% liver, 5% spleen and kidney. I just freeze portions of
the approximate amount she gets to eat weekly. Everything balances
somehow over the month. I feed once a week: fish, organs, liver,
chicken or turkey. The rest is venison and beef. And an egg from time
to time.
Just feed variety! And remember to breathe. =D

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (10)
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1c. Red Meats?
Posted by: "Monica A. Joy" imajoy@hughes.net imajoy2003
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:08 am ((PST))

Trina,
Have you tried just chicken liver? My dogs leave chicken livers laying around hoping they'll turn into , I don't know, something better for sure. They LOVE beef/calf liver though. Maybe yours is the same. I still feed chicken liver just not as often.
Monica

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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1d. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:09 am ((PST))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
> Heart is not considered an organ when feeding but is it considered
RED
>
*****
I coulda sworn we've been through this before!
Heart is an organ by function but a muscle by construction. Yes,
when doctors do heart transplants they are transplanting the organ.
But it a big ol' muscle and we can feed it as muscle meat. It is red
meat because all muscle meat, if given the exercise, is red meat.
The heart, which doesn't let up, thank goodness for that, is a muscle
that geets lots of exercise. Thus it's color is very red.

I am not sure if i
> count it as red meat.
*****
Well, however you used to feed it, feed it now as red muscle meat.

> Also, I had asked before but did not see any reply.
*****
I'm certain I responded to someone's heart question. Whether Yahoo
in its cyber majesty posted it I cannot say for sure.

How much red meat
> should be average fed?
*****
As much as you can feed. If the entire meat menu were to be red,
that would be fine.

> I am feeding mostly chicken (still new to the diet) but wanting to
introduce
> more red meats.
*****
I think it's time for you to feed red meat. I believe this has been
discussed before as well. If you can add heart (beef, pork, chicken--
doesn't matter) and pork to the diet, you will have expanded it
nicely. With heart and pork available, there's usually little reason
to stick so closely to chicken.

Of course, some of my dogs HATE liver & I forgot what else is
considered
> organ?
*****
Trina, do you read the other posts or just the ones that respond to
your questions? This topic--what to do about liver--has been
discussed a zillion times. Check the list archives, please. There
are many ways to get liver into a dog, including trying different
kinds of liver. Liver is non-negotiable. You must get liver into
your dogs. Not much, not always, but you gotta do it.

Other options that come close (and actually work nicely along with
liver) are kidney and spleen. But they are not liver. Liver is
liver.

> I think I should start adding a bit of red meats & varieties
now.....
> So, what are red meat? What % should be red meat?
*****
Red meat is meat that is not white. Keep it simple: chicken, turkey
and white fish are considered white meat. Everything else is
considered red, even pork. Salmon and mackerel are considered red.
Heart is red.

Feed as much red meat as you can. More is better than less.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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1e. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:10 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
>What % should be red meat?

Trina...

Chicken is very affordable but red meat wins the nutritional prize
for carnivores. Ideally, you should include as much red meat as you
can comfortably afford. I personally look for sales/cheaper cuts of
pork/beef/lamb etc... If money is tight I feed more cut-up whole
chicken, bone-in breasts, or chicken leg quarters as a base and then
supplement the meal with hunks of red meat. If I have more money to
spend or find a good sale on pork/beef, I will feed 100% meaty red-
meat meals where I can. Adding a good fish body oil supplement is
added insurance.

Some weeks ago I scored a bounty at my local Amish market. I had the
extra money and bought some poultry, rabbit, lamb, organs, but also
plenty of beef and pork. I live in NJ where prices tend to be very
high, so I stocked up ($150 worth) and stored most of what I
purchased in my deep freeze. Its been a month and I'm still feeding
my two 30 lb. dogs from my stash. The red meat hunks were 6 lbs.
each with no bones. I figure out how long the hunk should last my
dogs based on their daily intake and then just put the whole hunk
down and pick it up, wrap and refrigerate over that many days until
its all gone. Makes it nice and simple.

Bottom line is to just do what works for you and your pocketbook.
And remember, regardless of what you can afford, any amount of raw
(i.e chicken) is better than feeding kibble.

Nancy

Messages in this topic (10)
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1f. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:10 am ((PST))

I will check out other livers. I have tried chicken & turkey, some like it,
some don't.
To answer the other question, I do not read all the emails because their are
too many & I admit i do have to pick by subject each day. I am not on just
this list. Sorry & I have a hell of a time with archives so usually I try
to post a fast simple question for a quick answer so as not to irritate
anyone. I've been snapped at on here so I try to keep to the sidelines &
ask my mentor instead but she sometimes doesn't have an answer because she
is also kind of new to raw.
For those who don't remember, I'm a vegetarian, therefore I've no clue what
meat is considered what: it disgusts me but I know my dogs need it & I will
do what is the very best for them, otherwise I would have given up & gone
back to k***le a long time ago :-)
I still have NOT found any fish to feed my dogs. I do give fish capsules
but would prefer to do the real fish since I don't really know how much fish
oil capsules to feed & dammit i live in the NW I should be able to find
fish!
I am a stickler for things (yes, I am that germaphobe, neat freak that uses
bleach) BUT I allow my dogs to get dirty & play, dig holes, wrestle in mud &
be dogs, I just keep the house overly cleaned & disinfected & keep them
sanitary & brushed. I try very hard not to do numbers but it is a challenge
for me. I am trying to diet my one little dog & failing miserably at it!
My 3 Dane pups look incredibly gorgeous on this diet! One is having slight
skin/hair issues but it is, I'm sure, non diet related: rather, I am sure it
is colour related.
My other boy will be off the multiple antibiotics in a day so we will see
how he fares in a week or so.
I never had a chance to reply to everyone about that because of my schedule
last week, sorry. Let me see if I can make this super short & will skip
alot of things but get to basics. His lifelong story is that he came to me
as a puppy over 11 years ago with severe infections, vet began annual ear
flushings (under anesthesia & $500+ at a time), skin inflamed, prednisone
every few weeks for years (Yes, you read that right & I believed in this
vet!). Joey went blind in one eye, vet says "Yup, he's blind, don't know
why but other eye is going blind too." never gave meds or sent us to a
specialist. For about 9 years it was flushings, antibiotics,
prednisone/steroids...over 2 years ago, new vet: new test MULTIPLE
antibiotics for 5 diagnosed skin diseases: I remember: staf, e-coli (can't
remember others) but none transferred to any of my other dogs or humans. A
year on meds also saw an opthamologist, multiple eye meds, $3,000 later &
35% vision in one eye 3 - 5 meds daily for lifetime. Then Joey develops
demodex mange! A year on internal meds, cleared up so far. A month ago,
back on 2 antibiotics for skin & ears inflamed. bathed twice weekly with
medicated shampoo for last 2 years.
So, there's the shortest possible version. I am in hopes this diet will
help since he has always been a k***le dog on vet recommended 'diets'.
This dog smelled SO bad you couldn't walk through the front door! Right now
he is resting at my vet & I do not smell him but the antibiotics are still
in his system. Just to see him resting without chewing his skin to bright
red & bleeding is incredible. It may be too late to 'save' him with diet
but I have hopes the raw diet can help!
Sorry this was too long.
Thanks for all the liver, red meat & diet advice, will trudge my way
through :-)
Trina

On Nov 24, 2007 8:47 AM, Monica A. Joy <imajoy@hughes.net> wrote:

> Trina,
> Have you tried just chicken liver? My dogs leave chicken livers laying
> around hoping they'll turn into , I don't know, something better for sure.
> They LOVE beef/calf liver though. Maybe yours is the same. I still feed
> chicken liver just not as often.
> Monica
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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1g. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:42 am ((PST))

ok, I thought pork was a white meat :-) Like the commercial "Pork, the
other white meat."
I just bought $250.00 worth of chicken thighs, turkey necks & beef hearts.
I have another freezer to pick up, am going to stock up on turkeys from the
holiday sales & I will seek out some red meats! Now that I know pork is a
red meat .... Thank you!!
I will never go back to k***le no matter how flustered I get! My dogs
deserve the best only.
Trina

On Nov 24, 2007 10:51 AM, miensasis <kpmnlm@patmedia.net> wrote
>
>
>
> Trina...
>
> Chicken is very affordable but red meat wins the nutritional prize
> for carnivores. Ideally, you should include as much red meat as you
> can comfortably afford. I personally look for sales/cheaper cuts of
> pork/beef/lamb etc..
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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1h. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:37 pm ((PST))

Trina,

Your question about red meat was on RawChat and you received quite a few
responses.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "T Smith" <coldbeach@gmail.com>

> Also, I had asked before but did not see any reply. How much red meat
> should be average fed?

Messages in this topic (10)
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1i. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

I saw the ones from today, thanks.
If they replied to one from last week, I didn't see them for some reason, my
apologies. I did get my answers today & they were very helpful!
Trina

On Nov 24, 2007 1:37 PM, Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:

> Trina,
>
> Your question about red meat was on RawChat and you received quite a few
> responses.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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2.1. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Dawn Taylor" dawnmarie1968@tx.rr.com dawnt91
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

"I wanted to see if anyone out there has any advice on whether or not
it is safe for a small dog (pug or yorkie...I'm still undecided) to
eat raw? I know that they can eat ground meat, but am concerned that
this will not be enough to keep their teeth clean. Can they chew
bones? If so, should I give them bones with meat on it (ie-chicken
thigh) or should I give them ground meat and allow them to chew a bone
for dessert?"

----------------------------------

Welcome!

I have two little dogs, one a 10 lb Chihuahua mix and one a 13 lb Daschund/Chi mix. They're both on a complete raw diet and they eat the same thing as my 75 lb greyhound. They don't eat ground meat (unless I find a deal too good to pass up); they eat whole meat with bones. You'd be amazed at what those little guys can eat. Mine have no problem with chicken of any size, pork rib bones, etc. They even chew on the bones in the pork picnics.

A little dog is really no different than a big dog except you have to be pretty careful about not overfeeding or they'll get fat. Mine get only 5 ounces a day, and it's a challenge sometimes to get portions that small.

I definitely don't recommend letting your dog chew a bone for dessert - make sure any bones you feed are covered in meat and just count it as part of the diet. Bare bones scare me a bit as they tend to be sharper than bones with meat on them.

There's lots of great info on this list. When you read it, don't be too concerned about having a little dog. Just learn what any dog needs and adjust the portion sizes to be appropriate for your dog's size.
--------------------------------------------------

Dawn Taylor

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Messages in this topic (217)
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2.2. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:51 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kellyomran" <kellyomran@...>
wrote:
>
> I have done a looooot of reading tonight and I think I have
> the basics down. I'm so inspired that I am going to buy a
> meat grinder and make all the food myself. (Hope I'm not
> getting in over my head here!)

You haven't done "a loooot" of reading yet if you plan to buy a
grinder. A grinder is a useless appliance for raw feeding. Dogs
have built in grinders that have worked well for millions of years.
Also, you won't have to "make" any food. Just get an animal part
and hand it to your dog. Thats all there is to it.

> I wanted to see if anyone out there has any advice on whether
> or not it is safe for a small dog (pug or yorkie...I'm
> still undecided) to eat raw?

Of course it is. Over the long haul, its safer than kibble.

> I know that they can eat ground meat, but am concerned that
> this will not be enough to keep their teeth clean.

You are absolutely right it won't. The only time to feed ground
anything is when you get it at such a good price that you can't turn
it down. Otherwise feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety
of animals.

> Can they chew bones?

Hehe, yes, they are dogs. :) :) :)

> If so, should I give them bones with meat on it (ie-chicken
> thigh) or should I give them ground meat and allow them to chew
> a bone for dessert?

Forget grinders. Absolutely not needed as long as your dog has
teeth. Many toothless dogs don't eat ground. Feed your dog whole
animal parts(cut to the appropriate size for that breed).

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (217)
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2.3. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:29 am ((PST))

"kellyomran" <kellyomran@...> wrote:
>I'm so inspired that I am going to buy a meat grinder and make
> all the food myself. (Hope I'm not getting in over my head here!)
*****
No, but you're complicating the process. NO GRINDER! Your pup will
come complete with its own grinder--teeth. While you may have to feed
easy peasy bones until it figures out how to use its teeth (maybe a
week), it'll be able to eat whole food right away (with a little help
from you).

You don't "make" any food. Ma Nature does the making, you do the
choosing and you help the pup learn to do the eating. No making
nuttin'!

> I wanted to see if anyone out there has any advice on whether or not
> it is safe for a small dog (pug or yorkie...I'm still undecided) to
> eat raw?
*****
Yes, it's safe. It's not for you to decide if it's safe. It's for you
to decide if you want to do right by the pup by feeding it a good,
healthy species appropriate diet. This list with great regularity
discusses feeding small puppies, small dogs, and small breeds. Please
use the list archives to answer most if not all of your raw questions.

You should always look to the message archives for help.

I know that they can eat ground meat, but am concerned that
> this will not be enough to keep their teeth clean.
*****
Ground meat does not keep teeth clean, no. You're right. What you
will be feeding mostly though are whole meats, whole meaty bones and a
bit of organ. Ground meat is useful for hiding pills and certainly
when it is too cheap to pass up it can be fed. But it has no claim to
the larger part of the menu.

Can they chew
> bones?
*****
Yes. You start the babies out with easy bones and as they grow and
they figure out how to use their teeth and as their jaws develop
strength, you move them to more dificult bones.

If so, should I give them bones with meat on it (ie-chicken
> thigh)
*****
Yes, this is correct.

or should I give them ground meat and allow them to chew a bone
> for dessert?
*****
No, this is not appropriate. Feed ground food infrequently. Feed
edible bones with plenty of yummy, scrumptuous meat on them. Feed
these meaty edible bones as the meal.

Please. Do yourself a favor, do your pup-to-be a favor, do the list
members a favor: learn to use the message archives and then take
advantage of the learning curve of others.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (217)
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3a. Re: S.O.S and venison ribs in NE Michigan
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "johnsonkp200" <sunfiretervs@...>
wrote:
>
> Should I freeze it for 24 hrs first (I've heard that about
> game/parasites), or should I wait until ? (how long) to give it
> to him?

If it was me, I'd wait about 6 weeks to give it to him just to insure
there aren't any digestive problems.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: duck, duck, goose
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:34 am ((PST))

Rebecca -
I've been feeding raw for almost 4 years and have not fed goose yet. But, if someone were to give me geese, I'm certain I would feed them! Wow! What a nice gift:) I do, however, feed duck whenever I can afford to splurge. Mine just LUUUUVVVV duck!
Please let us know how your guys enjoy them.
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Rebecca Little <pbgs@delhitel.net> wrote:
Does anyone ever feed goose? A friend gave me two very fresh geese(he just shot them) and after a great deal of work to get the feathers off I put them in freezer bags for the 10 day wait before I feed them but just wondering if anybody feeds goose and about the bones ect....i know alot of people don't feed turkey(other then necks) d/t the bones being hard is it the same for geese or not?
Rebecca Little
Peakes Brook German Shepherds
http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/peakesbrookgsd/index.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: duck, duck, goose
Posted by: "Rebecca Little" pbgs@delhitel.net canucme278
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

Duck is actually a regular thing here, I get duck carcass from Oma's for about 98 cents a pound. My guys adore it and LOVE duckie days. I just wasn't sure if there was alot of difference between the two meats. I can tell you that the goose meat is quite dark. I do think I may have more goose in my future....the person who gave them
to me knows I feed raw and also HATES the geese that seem to be over populating his pond.
Rebecca Little
Peakes Brook German Shepherds
http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/peakesbrookgsd/index.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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5.1. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:51 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@...>
wrote:
>
> I have been raw feeding for about 2 years now with trial &
> error and a few bumps in the road.

What exactly are you feeding now?

> Does archives mean the posts listed under links and how do I
> trim posts?

It means to use the search feature to find posts on a particular
subject or just scroll backwards reading anything that interests you.

> I have been following the IBS thread as it sounds like my
> little girl. My vet has treated her numerous times for
> diarrea & cramps with stool samples each time but have never
> had a diagnose of any thing in particular.

Often in vet talk, IBS means "I don't have a clue what the problem
is." This is another reason we need to know exactly what you are
feeding so the diet can be tweaked to fit this dog's particular
problem.

> He is neither pro/anti on the raw but has said he feels she
> in particular cant handle it.

I seriously disagree with him. There is no way that artificial
processed cereal full of grains and carbs is better for her
digestive system than a natural diet of meat, bones, and organs.

>...so I am looking for advise to help her. I am always up for
> learning and will be grateful to any & all advise.

Let us know what you are feeding now and what past exeperiences have
been with different foods and we will go from there.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (361)
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5.2. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:47 am ((PST))

"Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@...> wrote:
>> Does archives mean the posts listed under links and how do I trim
posts?
*****
The archives is a fancy term for old messages. All the messages that
you receive as mails are also available (in order, back til 2003 or
something--beyond which Yahoo has deleted) via the Rawfeeding
homepage on Yahoogroups. At the bottom of each Rawfeeding email you
receive are instructions for accessing Yahoogroups. It's easy. Do
it. You can also manage your membership with this link. IMO
everyone who receives list emails should also have access to the
Yahoogroup website.

You trim your posts by deleting from your response previously posted
text that is not relevant to your reply. In many cases you can
delete everything. If you need to keep a bit of the original text
for reference, you can do so by cutting and pasting.

If your preferences are set to "enhanced" you may have trouble
cutting and pasting. I suggest you change your mail preferences
to "traditional" which should make things easier. This can be done
by clicking appropriately on the management text at the bottom of
every Rawfeeding email you receive.

>He is neither pro/anti on the raw but has said he feels she
> in particular cant handle it.
*****
Of course she can. There is a proper raw diet for every dog out
there; it's our job as clever, creative and responsible rawfeeders to
find that diet. It's the vet's job to find out why a dog cannot eat
a species appropriate diet. Given her background, you may be to make
concessions, but none of them should have to entail significant
forays away from species appropriate.

We'll need lots of details of course, but we really are here to help.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (361)
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6a. Re: Doh. i read the archives!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:48 am ((PST))

Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
> Lastly, and this is just my hindsight working overtime,
> I-wish-I'd-known-better talking, but my little guy died, not from
IBD, but
> from a large tumor growing undetected in his liver. It got to a
size that
> affected his ability to store glycogen, sending his blood sugar
through the
> roof, and surgery wasn't an option at that point.
*****
Ah, I know it well.
When my 13 year old golden died last year, it was because of a large
tumor growing undetectetd on his lower bowel. This was not
identified until the vet did a sonogram after his bloodwork came back
looking just awful. And what precipitated the CBC was poor sweet
Gus's chronic pancreatitis. Once I got past the denial ("no really,
it's just indigestion") it was patently obvious that something much
bigger and worse was going on.

> BUT, don't let him talk diet to you! ; )
*****
Amen. After the bloodwork, the vet wanted me to feed SD something or
other; she was nicely accomodating though when I reminded her my dogs
eat raw food. She told me to feed something bland and that was the
end of the food conversation.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. goose
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:08 am ((PST))

Does anyone ever feed goose? A friend gave me two very fresh geese(he just shot them) and after a great deal of work to get the feathers off I put them in freezer bags for the 10 day wait before I feed them but just wondering if anybody feeds goose and about the bones ect....

~~~~~~~~
Geese are fine for dogs to eat. Although my dogs have not had goose as of yet, I wouldn't hesitate to feed it to them..unless the goose in question is my brother's black lab named Goose...I wouldn't be feeding her to my dogs. <g> The only caution I would suggest is to make sure all the shot pellets have been removed before you feed it to your dog.

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

---------------------------------
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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8. Veal???
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:42 am ((PST))

I was wondering if group members could weigh in on the nutritional
value of veal. While I am not a vegetarian, I am not a big meat eater
at all and what I do eat is generally free-range and organic. I have
never, ever eaten veal before, but recently found a deal on some veal
(a large hunk with a long bone along one side) and purchased it
at .79/lb. I just looked up veal on-line and read they were young
cows. I was shocked because their meat is so light in color...not at
all beef-like. (yes...I am a clueless city girl!) Then I read on to
learn that they are fed lots of milk (or even milk-substitue), and not
allowed to roam very much, hence the light color of the meat. I read
some are also fed corn-meal, hay, or grain for a time before being
slaughtered. Wouldn't this all mean that they are not quite as
nutritious as other types of meat?? I'm guessing they'd be pretty low
in O-3 as well. I'm just trying to gather info so I can determine what
place the veal will have in my carnivores' diet!

Thanks,

Nancy

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Bacteria and raw feeding.
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:42 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mystykalsky" <jacklab@...> wrote:
>
> I have 3 kids here and I can certainly say that I DON"T handle the
food carefuly.. NOT ONE BIT...
> my door handles are handled by ME full of raw food on them and I
think of cleaning them..but NEVER do...

It is so interesting how our comfort levels vary. At a recent vet
visit, I decided to feel my vet out about raw. (he does not know we
feed raw) I told him I was researching raw diets, specifically whole
prey, and asked what he thought about them. I was surprised when he
said he thought they were very good for dogs and that he has a
breeder friend who feeds a raw whole-prey model. He said he tried it
for a time with his greyhound and the dog did very well...even had
bald patches of fur grow back in...but that he eventually abandoned
raw to kibble because it was "too much work". I asked him why fully
expecting him to say he was doing grinding, grains, veggies,
supplements...but in fact it was because he was so meticulous about
the clean-up afterwards with bleaching and disinfecting...that he
burned out!

I, for one, have slacked off quite a bit in this area. It was a huge
concern for me when I started raw. (Hey...I grew up with my Polish
babci (grandma) was**still is at age 81**the mistress of clean.) But
I've fallen into a routine of feeding the dogs on the linoleum
kitchen floor and put a lot of faith in the vinegar and water mixture
for clean up of the floor area where they ate and counter surfaces
afterwards. But I don't obsess and am pretty much done with the
clean up after a few squirts and wipes with a rag.

Nancy

Messages in this topic (22)
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10a. Re: Need to share the excitement!!
Posted by: "Gayle" gayle@gayleturner.net gayle28607
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:02 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Loraine Jesse <rothburg@...> wrote:
>
>
> "don't know anybody else who understands how great this is, lol!!"
>
> Oh Yes I do. I would be thrilled in the same situation and must admit
that when I find a deal on any kind of meat that I am thrilled to bits.
> Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> S--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Loraine Jesse wrote:>> > "don't
know anybody else who understands how great this is, lol!!"> > Oh Yes I
do. I would be thrilled in the same situation and must admit that when I
find a deal on any kind of meat that I am thrilled to bits. > Loraine
Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com>

I am so happy for you! As soon as I read your message I looked to see
where you live - Germany, alas.

I am in Boone, NC, in the USA, and am still searching for a similar
source. What butchers and meat processors here keep telling me is that
USDA rules *prevent* them from giving me scraps, which the ribs and leg
tops often are for hunters. You will understand my sorrow and
frustration as I had this conversation for the second time while
standing over a huge garbage can full of beautiful venison trim - which
he was bound and determined to throw away!!!

I still don't really understand what the rules are here. It makes me
think that we have gone loco. A hunter gave me the lower legs and head
out in the parking lot before his deer went in for processing. This made
the butcher angry. I understand this is his business and he doesn't want
any grief, so I left and will leave him in peace. Yet it would seem that
if someone wants to give you their scraps before or after entering the
processing room...

So, my quest continues, buoyed by your success!

Congratulations.

Gayle and Chakotay

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Messages in this topic (6)
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10b. Re: Need to share the excitement!!
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Gayle" <gayle@...> wrote:

> I still don't really understand what the rules are here. It makes me
> think that we have gone loco. A hunter gave me the lower legs and head
> out in the parking lot before his deer went in for processing. This made
> the butcher angry. I understand this is his business and he doesn't want
> any grief, so I left and will leave him in peace. Yet it would seem that
> if someone wants to give you their scraps before or after entering the
> processing room...
>
Aaaw- that is really sad! =( Hope you find a way to get the good
stuff. Crossing my fingers for you!!

Jennifer

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11a. Re: Chew treats?
Posted by: "eyed_blue" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

My dog loves pigs ears as a chew treat but they do put the weight on,
I also give him frozen bones, which he loves, seems to prefer them
that way. I was giving him the odd marrow bone when he was 'tiny' but
since learning on the list how many dogs break their teeth on them, i
stopped this.

I also feed rawhides as they say 100% natural on the tag, can you tell
me what is the problem with them? I dont want to keep feeding them to
him if they are not good for him.

My dog must be the odd one out here, he will NOT eat 'bully sticks'
but perhaps this is a blessing since they STINK!!! LOL

Natalie

Messages in this topic (6)
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11b. Re: Chew treats?
Posted by: "eyed_blue" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

Sorry I also meant to say that the frozen bones are fed on a small
tarpauline, if it comes off then i put it back, if he keeps moving it,
i take it off him, this seems to work, as they realise they have to
stay on it or lose the treat. Because its plastic, i can wipe any
bits up with a bit kitchen roll or baby wipe then mop with soapy water
(thinking of trying white vinegar soon tho)and my floor/furnishings
havent had meat/bones on.

Natalie

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