Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12308

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
From: Yasuko herron
1b. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
From: Howard Salob
1d. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
From: costrowski75
1e. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
From: Mallory Kwiatkowski
1f. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
From: costrowski75
1g. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Unshorn Sheep
From: christyb
2b. Re: Unshorn Sheep
From: Casey Post

3.1. Re: New to raw feeding
From: Tracy Meal
3.2. Re: New to raw feeding
From: Yasuko herron

4a. Re: Bad Breath
From: Yasuko herron

5a. Nutritional changes in Freeze Dried raw food
From: Deena
5b. Re: Nutritional changes in Freeze Dried raw food
From: Casey Post

6a. Re: Bacteria and raw feeding.
From: Mystykalsky
6b. Re: Bacteria and raw feeding.
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Does this sound okay for a feeding plan?
From: Casey Post

8a. New here. Intro and a few questions.
From: recyclerat@aol.com
8b. Re: New here. Intro and a few questions.
From: Yasuko herron
8c. Re: New here. Intro and a few questions.
From: recyclerat@aol.com

9a. Rats for dogs? was Does this sound okay for a feeding plan?
From: Lisa Blair
9b. Re: Rats for dogs? was Does this sound okay for a feeding plan?
From: costrowski75
9c. Re: Rats for dogs? was Does this sound okay for a feeding plan?
From: Lisa Blair

10. Doh. i read the archives!
From: recyclerat@aol.com

11. Re: Want to start RAW feeding with Papillonþ
From: Carrie Kelly

Messages
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1a. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:49 pm ((PST))

> few questions-

Hi,A. I have read newest version 2005 edition but I do not like the book at all for diet part.

For eample,one of his recips as follows.

1/2lb beef chuck
6 slice bread
whole milk
2Egg
1/4c corn or other veg
healthy powder (mix of suplement of his creation)
Calcium powder
Veg oil
Vita E
1/4tsp Tamari
1garlic

ok,supposedly,you mix all and bake or give rawmix and if baked,cut to portion your dog needs and feed but do you think these are appropriate??this is 30% protin,25 %fat,42% carb.

You do not feel his diet is heavy on carb? Other recipes have oatmeal or beans or other grains other than veg and bunch of supplement.I do not feel comfortable about it.
Most of his recipe is in 40's% for carb,while me,for example,carb is close to zero all the time.I am guessing my % for dog is around 59% protin,40% fat 1% carb.

>1) My copy is from 1982, is the information still accurate or has
the newer books been updated with recent research?

These people use NRC as dog nutrition requirement I think and just like human pyramid,it keep changing,so,if you look requirement number most recent and number from years ago,you would find off number between thetwo numbers for same nutrient.

However,we feed raw and rawfeeding is balance over time. So,if you get quite less nutrient today;lets say you get only 50IU today total while you maybe needed 3000IU,that is ok,you get more Vitamin A tomorrow or day after,if you got 6000IU A today while you need 3000IU,but if you get less A following days and if the number was not way too high,you can balance it out in a week and no prob.it is not like you need to give consistent nutrient number all the time like most vet wants.Kibble gives consistent number for nutrients,but not ourway of feeding.We balance it out over the time.

>2) I cannot find human grade Bone Meal at any local feed stores.
Where can I order this from?

Bone meal sometimes have lead in it (look up page 26,34 in 2005 edition)and,you give calcium through bones so,you do not need bonemeal at all.

>3) What should I give them in the meantime instead of bone meal?
Bone,bone,bone

>Would a human grade calcium supplement be ok?
No,diet already gives calcium through bone so,you do not need extra calcium.
Diet should be much meat,some bone,little organ.

>They are doing ok on the food switch because I have always added meats/veggies/fruits to their diets throughout the week in addition to kibble.

Kibble is already high in carb;veg,veg etc and you should not add more carb to it.If you ever want to add something,you add meat.

But mix of raw meatand kibble sometimes cause digestive prob so,it maybe better for you to just simply switch to raw completely.

Get a chicken or turkey and cut to portion and feed through and while you letting your dog hang of it and getting good diogestion ask away any questions andyou can move ahead.Switching cold turkey is best bet to switch.

You should be able to buy turkey quite cheap now due thanksgiving is over and maybestore wants to clear out shelves as much as poss.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (11)
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1b. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:43 pm ((PST))

Hi Amanda,

Boy, can we simplify your life!! :)) Raw is not complicated...no cooking,
no mixing, measuring or supplementing, no bone meal, no grinding fruits or
veggies! Go buy yourself a couple of chickens, cut into serving sized
portions, hand to dog. Done! How's that for easy????

While your dogs are adjusting to digesting the chicken (or turkey), continue
reading here to find out what others are feeding, take a look at Kevin's
recipe page, keep an eye out for sales on beef, pork, lamb, fish, various
organs, etc. and stock up when you can. Then slowly add in variety, lots of
red meat (which should dominate the diet) and some organs.
http://rawfeddogs.net

Seriously, dogs are carnivores....their natural diet consists of raw meat
(and lots of it), a little edible bone and organs. Pitcairn's recipes
weren't appropriate in 1982 and they aren't now!

You might want to do some reading here for lots of great info.....
http://rawfed.com

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "A." <ols@charter.net>

I have been looking into putting my dogs (and cat) on a better diet
for awhile now. I have put it off because the raw seems so
complicated and cooking seems like a pain.

Well, with all of our oldest dogs health issues I decided to just go
for it. I found a copy of Dr. Pitcairn's book and decided to start
with that and continue looking into BARF.

Messages in this topic (11)
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1c. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

Dear Sandee Lee,

I feel much better reading this. I had this same type of discussion with friends of mine over this past holiday. Think I'm crazy but I feed raw and not the vegetables or fruit..

Sincerely,

Howard

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:
Hi Amanda,

Seriously, dogs are carnivores....their natural diet consists of raw meat
(and lots of it), a little edible bone and organs. Pitcairn's recipes
weren't appropriate in 1982 and they aren't now!

You might want to do some reading here for lots of great info.....
http://rawfed.com

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "A." <ols@charter.net>

I have been looking into putting my dogs (and cat) on a better diet
for awhile now. I have put it off because the raw seems so
complicated and cooking seems like a pain.

Well, with all of our oldest dogs health issues I decided to just go
for it. I found a copy of Dr. Pitcairn's book and decided to start
with that and continue looking into BARF.

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Messages in this topic (11)
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1d. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:20 pm ((PST))

"A." <ols@...> wrote:
>
> I have been looking into putting my dogs (and cat) on a better diet
> for awhile now. I have put it off because the raw seems so
> complicated and cooking seems like a pain.
*****
It IS a pain. And it's not appropriate. Two strikes right there.
Third strike is Pitcairn recommends significant vegetation (grains as
well as greens) in the diet not because the dog needs them but
because he feels such sources of nutrition are kinder to Plant
Earth. This is a fine sentiment (or is not), but our dogs should not
bear the burden of the insults we levee upon Ma Nature.

I recommend you set aside his book until you have come to terms with
what a species appropriate diet for dogs and cats (and ferrets)
actually is. And why it's more healthy for these critters to eat
such a diet. At that point, Pitcairn will be interesting, but not
the least bit useful. Or relevant.

>> 1) My copy is from 1982, is the information still accurate or has
> the newer books been updated with recent research?
*****
I believe it was updated but its message remains the same. And that
message is full of misinformation as regards feeding a wolf. If
Pitcairn had done his research, he would have had to acknowledge that
significant plant matter is not appropriate and is therefore
detrimental to dogs.

> 2) I cannot find human grade Bone Meal at any local feed stores.
> Where can I order this from?
*****
Easy! From the whole raw (and meaty) bones you feed your dogs!
Cooked meals are not optimal. What you should offer is whole raw
meat, whole raw meaty bones, and organs. Done and done.

3) What should I give them in the meantime instead of bone meal?
*****
Again, lovely whole raw meaty bones. While a dog's raw diet is
primarily meat (fat, skin, connective tissue, flesh), bone for both
minerals and other nutrients (as well as dental and mental hygiene)
is essential...but only in amounts that are quite small in
comparison. 10%-20% edible bone OVER TIME (as in big picture, sooner
or later, now and then, eventually) is a good range to feed within.

Would a human grade calcium supplement be ok?
*****
If you are not feeding meaty whole bones (which is the goal and
expectation on this list), you can add ground eggshells to the meat
or you can use a human calcium supplement. Neither though is an
adequate substitute for meaty whole bones.

>They are doing ok on the food
> switch because I have always added meats/veggies/fruits to their
> diets throughout the week in addition to kibble.
*****
Of these things you have always added, only the meat is beneficial to
your dogs. Kibble is profoundly carbohydrate. It is easily 50%
grain (kibble cannot exist to be extruded without grain or other
starch) and is skewly badly towards Omega 6 fatty acids. Adding
vegetables and fruit only serve to increase to even higher levels
dietary carbohydrate.

Meat is animal protein. You can always add animal protein to
kibble. There's plenty of calcium in kibble, so dosing high with
extra "real" meat does not mess any profound "balance" at all.

Pitcairn has formulated his recipes to serve his own view of how the
world can be saved. He is not doing our dogs any favors. Used to be
I thought while his dietary pronouncements were faulty his homeopathy
was skilled. But now I know different about his homeopathy as well.

Please save his book for a rainy day much later, after you've been
feeding your dogs a species appropriate diet and you understand why.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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1e. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
Posted by: "Mallory Kwiatkowski" m_k_jesusfreak3@yahoo.com m_k_jesusfreak3
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:59 pm ((PST))

i just have to jump in here.
While i don't like the amount of grains and plant matter he recommends, his reasons are more for the health of the pets, and not the planet so much. His reasoning is that meat is the most contaminated food source, and he is correct. Unless you feed all organic meat, you are feeding the same hormones and antibiotics to your pets. This isn't a big deal with chicken, but for beef especially.
His diet allows the same nutrients, but less contaminated meat.
I am not saying I agree with this, and don't want to argue, but i just wanted to say why he wanted to use the veggies and grains.
mallory

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1f. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:12 pm ((PST))

Mallory Kwiatkowski <m_k_jesusfreak3@...> wrote:
>his reasons are more for the health of the pets, and not the planet so
much. His reasoning is that meat is the most contaminated food source,
and he is correct. Unless you feed all organic meat, you are feeding
the same hormones and antibiotics to your pets. This isn't a big deal
with chicken, but for beef especially.
*****
Well, it's good to know he's got more on his mind than just saving the
planet. Although I'm pretty sure he comments on the amount of energy
needed to produce meat protein versus plant protein.

Meat may be (or may not be) the most contaminated food source, but it's
what our carnivorous dogs eat. Our job as responsible carnivore-
feeders is to feed the best most appropriate food we can find/afford.
Replacing meat protein with plant protein is not a healthy response to
the issue.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (11)
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1g. Re: Dr. Pitcairn's recipe questions
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:15 pm ((PST))

That's not true. He has stated dogs require carbohydrates for energy and
recommends feeding grains for the health of the planet because the land
cannot produce enough meat if everyone started feeding appropriately!

How could anyone who recognizes that dogs are carnivores say grains and
plant matter are healthy? Carnivores don't get their nutrients from plants.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Mallory Kwiatkowski" <m_k_jesusfreak3@yahoo.com>

> i just have to jump in here.
> While i don't like the amount of grains and plant matter he recommends,
his reasons are more for the health of the pets, and not the planet so much.
His reasoning is that meat is the most contaminated food source, and he is
correct. Unless you feed all organic meat, you are feeding the same hormones
and antibiotics to your pets. This isn't a big deal with chicken, but for
beef especially.
> His diet allows the same nutrients, but less contaminated meat.
> I am not saying I agree with this, and don't want to argue, but i just
wanted to say why he wanted to use the veggies and grains.

Messages in this topic (11)
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2a. Unshorn Sheep
Posted by: "christyb" christyb@cox.net christyb14
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:11 pm ((PST))

Hi,

I'm back with another unshorn sheep question. I just discovered 4
feet/hooves that were about 6 or 8 inches long. I took off all the
obvious wool and left about 1/3 of each hoof with the flat fur - is
that okay?

The hooves were in the bag with the head and as Casey suggested I
gave the poor thing a haircut - I did leave the fur under it's eyes
down to it's mouth as it was all flat and I really didn't think that
I could do it. I also left the ears on with the flat fur. Is this
okay or do I need to trim more?

Has anyone ordered the spring lambs from Creston Valley Meats? If
so, could you please let me know what you think? Do they come with
the head and organs? If appropriate, please reply off list.

Thanks,
Christy

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Unshorn Sheep
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:51 pm ((PST))

> I'm back with another unshorn sheep question. I just discovered 4
> feet/hooves that were about 6 or 8 inches long. I took off all the
> obvious wool and left about 1/3 of each hoof with the flat fur - is
> that okay?

Christy,

I'm sure that's fine. Problem with those lower legs is just that they're
not meaty, so you may want to add a hunk of boneless meat to them when you
feed.

>
> I did leave the fur under it's eyes
> down to it's mouth as it was all flat and I really didn't think that
> I could do it. I also left the ears on with the flat fur. Is this
> okay or do I need to trim more?

Sounds like what I did - just took off the really wooly bits. I left the
flat fur alone and the dogs (not experienced raw eaters) were fine. Some
furry poops later on, but no one had a bit of trouble.

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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3.1. Re: New to raw feeding
Posted by: "Tracy Meal" hiddenpoetinme1@yahoo.com hiddenpoetinme1
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:34 pm ((PST))

HI Tiffany,

>> I tried them with raw and they either don't touch it or chew it then spit it out and rub themselves in it.

I had to sear the skin on a chicken leg quarter to get my 11 yr old, kibble fed, Rottie to eat raw the first time. When I gave her the leg initially, plain raw,she dropped it, licked it and looked at me like I was nuts ! I picked it up, seared the skin in a very hot fry pan for less than 1 min on each side. Make sure you do not cook the chicken. When I gave it back to her she ate it no problem. The next feeding was raw with no searing and no problems.

Tracy

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3.2. Re: New to raw feeding
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

>>> I tried them with raw and they either don't touch it or chew it then
spit it out and rub themselves in it.

Sometimes,just ribborning the meat helps too without trying searing..

My dog used to have hard time with Elk meat but, when I tried ribborning the meat,she ate it as if nothing was wrong with the meat;smell andtaste etc..I am not sure why.now,occasinarly with Elk rib,she tries to strike on me but if it were boneless meat,she eats it in gusto.No prob.

I have never tasted it and was wondering if it were unique taste or not,and I cooked some of her meat(Elk's flank steak) for human as choice besides Turkey yesterday,and it tasted like beef,no gamy at all.

I am not sure if rib meat hasdifferent unique taste to it or not but ribborning tiny bit of meat attached to rib bone helps her going.

Don't tell her we ate some of her meat,lol.

yassy

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4a. Re: Bad Breath
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:35 pm ((PST))

>Could you be more specific on the size of the slab of ribs?

Hi,vicki. I think that size of ribs are not all that matter to feed if it were slabs not singleton rib.

I got 5lb slab of beef ribs slab and each rib bone is around 8-9 inches in length.
I got is at local super market.If you find short ribs sold in theshelves,you could ask the meat guy if they have slabs back of the counter.

You just feed it andwhen you think yourdog got enough,you takeit away andtoss the bone that is left bare and re-freeze it.My dog got wore out with big rib meat dinner,andsheslept quitedeep:-P

>What about turkey necks?
It is much much bigger andthicker than chicken neck anddiameter is about...probably size of cap of salad dressing size.weigh 6oz per neck;little lessthan half pound.And 6inch length or so.

My dog likes it a lot and she is chewing nicely to eat it so,I giveit without any fear.

yassy

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5a. Nutritional changes in Freeze Dried raw food
Posted by: "Deena" mottola@comcast.net mottola22
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:06 pm ((PST))

Can anyone point me in the direction of what nutritional changes
occur in the freeze drying of raw food? Of particular interest is if
the freeze drying changes the medicinal qualities of certain foods.
Especially stuff like heart, spleen and pancreas.

I'm asking for two reason.

I have a cat with progressive heart disease. That hasn't progressed
in a few years. Her only medication is getting fed raw heart from as
many different animals as I can muster up. I have access to some
exotic types of heart. But it is freeze dried. Will this have
similar medicinal quality as raw heart? I'm ass-uming it will lose
something with the processing. I want to know if it loses most of
it's nutritional and therapeutic qualities.

I also feed her raw pancreas to keep her diabetes under control. And
spleen to help her immune system. These are also available to me
freeze dried from different animals than I currently feed.

I also has a friend who can't get over the hump of feeding prey model
while traveling. So feeds kibble on the road. I'm thinking freeze
dried might be just as easy. But want to make sure all the good
stuff in raw doesn't get flushed during the freeze drying process.

The stuff is pretty pricey. I want to know if I'm getting more
nutritional punch than just an expensive treat.

TIA

Deena Mottola
PortStar Tollers

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Nutritional changes in Freeze Dried raw food
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:00 pm ((PST))

> Can anyone point me in the direction of what nutritional changes
> occur in the freeze drying of raw food? Of particular interest is if
> the freeze drying changes the medicinal qualities of certain foods.
> Especially stuff like heart, spleen and pancreas.

Deena,

I don't know if anyone can answer this question completely since we don't
know all there is to know about nutrients and what they do. Of course,
heart provides heart-healthy nutrients like taurine and coenzyme Q10, but
what else does it provide? We don't know! There are nutrients out there
that we haven't named yet, let alone understand how they interact in the
body, you know?

> I have a cat with progressive heart disease. That hasn't progressed
> in a few years. Her only medication is getting fed raw heart from as
> many different animals as I can muster up. I have access to some
> exotic types of heart. But it is freeze dried. Will this have
> similar medicinal quality as raw heart? I'm ass-uming it will lose
> something with the processing. I want to know if it loses most of
> it's nutritional and therapeutic qualities.

I don't know, honestly. I'm sure there'd be no harm in trying though.
Something else to consider is rather than looking for exotic hearts, you may
want to look for hearts/meats from wild/pastured animals. We know that
animals raised on pasture have a higher level of omega 3 fatty acids and
those in turn may aid in heart health.

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Bacteria and raw feeding.
Posted by: "Mystykalsky" jacklab@nbnet.nb.ca havasky
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:46 pm ((PST))

I have 3 kids here and I can certainly say that I DON"T handle the food carefuly.. NOT ONE BIT...
my door handles are handled by ME full of raw food on them and I think of cleaning them..but NEVER do... SO I have to wonder about this sometimes..
Nathalie
Mystykalsky Reg'd Havanese
www.mystykalsky.com

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6b. Re: Bacteria and raw feeding.
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:09 pm ((PST))

Good for you! That is a far healthier approach for you, your pets and your
family. While I believe in normal handwashing and cleaning up my kitchen,
etc., the reason we have things like MRSA is because of our fear of bacteria
which has led to overuse and misuse of disinfectants, antibacterial soaps
and antibiotics! Vinegar and hydrogen peroxide will do nicely. :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Mystykalsky" <jacklab@nbnet.nb.ca>

> I have 3 kids here and I can certainly say that I DON"T handle the food
carefuly.. NOT ONE BIT...
> my door handles are handled by ME full of raw food on them and I think of
cleaning them..but NEVER do... SO I have to wonder about this sometimes..

Messages in this topic (21)
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7a. Re: Does this sound okay for a feeding plan?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:07 pm ((PST))

>I was
> wondering if anyone here feeds mice or rats to their cats?

Of course! Mice, they're not just for breakfast, anymore! Rats, the other,
um, red meat....

>> I would think of course that I probably wouldn't want to use them as a
> main food source,

Why not - cost? Because whole prey is the ideal diet for our carnivores!

> but what about say 2 days a week with whole mice, 1
> day a week with whole fish, and then a combination of chicken backs
> and hearts for the other days?

Chicken backs are too bony for regular fare, but if you can find something
else to fit in there (can you get rabbit? That's a great cat food!), it
would work.

> I'm still in the research stage, so I was just wondering as I feel
> like I'm totally lost here.

You're starting out with whole rodents - you're WAY ahead of the game!
You're doing great!

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. New here. Intro and a few questions.
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:57 pm ((PST))

Hi Everyone,

I have a rottweiler and a chihuahau whom i have been feeding raw for 3
months. I stumbled upon the B.A.R.F. website doing a search for some problems
my Rot has been having on and off all his life. (he will be 8 in Dec.)
i've semi self-diagnosed him has having colitis or ibs or severe food
allergies - after starting the barf diet (first we did ground beef + rolled
oats +pureed pumpkin + whole flax seeds + veg. puree + acidoluphilus, for the
morning meal and subbing out the ground beef for chicken thighs or legs or
necks for the evening meal. this REALLY perked up for my very sick dog
until 2 weeks ago...i think he is having a flare up, and its really bad...at
first i thought he had an obstucted bowel (and of course everyone thought it was
from the raw bones) b/c he was vomitting up everything that went in...but 3
days ago he stopped the vomitting and now he's moved on to horrible diahreah
- (not unlike his sypmtoms from previous flare ups during his life.. and
its not the WORST it has ever been, but he is certainly declining rapidly.
He has been turning his nose up to his raw meals...and after the first day
of him not eating (he is VERY underweight, and had only started putting some
weight back on when i started him on the raw diet)...i was worried a/b him
not eating all day, so i boiled his chicken and removed the bones and mixed
the extras in, and he turned his nose up to that as well....i then offered the
plain boiled chicken, and he ate it all. so i've been cooking proteins for
him for his morning and evening feedings. but things are not well in his
belly...the liquid (and i mean liquid in EVERY sense of the word) poo persists,
and he is very ill looking -

basically, my entire ramble here - is reaching out for anyone who has gone
thru something similar or has any advice to offer me....

i am looking for help..anybody??

.heather.

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8b. Re: New here. Intro and a few questions.
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:14 pm ((PST))

>i've semi self-diagnosed him has having colitis or ibs or severe food
>allergies - after starting the barf diet (first we did ground beef + rolled
>oats +pureed pumpkin + whole flax seeds + veg. puree + acidoluphilus, for the
>morning meal and subbing out the ground beef for chicken thighs or legs or
>necks for the evening meal.

Hi.look at this site on IBD and other digestive problems.

http://www.dogaware.com/specific.html#ibd

I am thinking... ground beef is quite fatty. at least to my dog. She cannot torelate even thumb nail sized meat(I gave some when I was making meatballs,of course before adding anything to it) andshe gets softer poo after that.

Why not try giving your dog hunk of meat not ground meat?

And oats and veg are carb and some dog cannot torelate carb simply and once you eliminate all carb from your dog diet,your dog may do better.Veg tend to loose the poo andpumpkin works both ways;one way to firm the poo but too much cause diarrhea.

And you stated chicken parts but it looks quite small for rottie,the big dog especially chicken neck.Buy a whole bird and cut up to portion and feed. not parts by parts.hat is easier and cheaper and much beter way to feed to dog.

I have never hada dog with IBS etc so,not sure much about it but I think eliminating carb is first step for you. Then,you maybe can look for group for people with dog thathas IBD or colitis etc andif you join in that list,you may get more useful help.

yassy

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8c. Re: New here. Intro and a few questions.
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:10 pm ((PST))

Thanks Yassy - i will cut out all the "extras" and try to get my rotty's
stomach settled using Giselle's Slippery Elm remedy, starting tomorrow - and
will keep him on chicken for a couple weeks before re-introducing other
proteins..

i will start using the whole ckn's over buying the bags of the
peices....

thank you for all your advice, i really do appricate it.

.heather.

I have never hada dog with IBS etc so,not sure much about it but I think
eliminating carb is first step for you. Then,you maybe can look for group for
people with dog thathas IBD or colitis etc andif you join in that list,you may
get more useful help.

yassy

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9a. Rats for dogs? was Does this sound okay for a feeding plan?
Posted by: "Lisa Blair" lkblair@yahoo.com lkblair
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:58 pm ((PST))

Along these lines, are rats ok for dogs? This post got me thinking about it (we have rats as pets, too), and the big boys are often over a pound so could possibly be a decent meal for even a larger dog, if fed twice a day or along with something else.

What do the experts think?

Lisa

******************************************************************
Of course! Mice, they're not just for breakfast, anymore! Rats, the other,

um, red meat....

>> I would think of course that I probably wouldn't want to use them as a

> main food source,

Why not - cost? Because whole prey is the ideal diet for our carnivores!

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9b. Re: Rats for dogs? was Does this sound okay for a feeding plan?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:05 pm ((PST))

Lisa Blair <lkblair@...> wrote:
> What do the experts think?
>
> Lisa
>
> ******************************************************************
> Of course! Mice, they're not just for breakfast, anymore! Rats,
the other,
>
> um, red meat....>
>
> >> I would think of course that I probably wouldn't want to use
them as a
>
> > main food source,>
>
> Why not - cost? Because whole prey is the ideal diet for our
carnivores!
*****
But Lisa--you've GOT the say so of an expert! I would trust my dogs
with Casey in an instant. She sometimes makes with the jokes, but
she's not kidding in her response to you: rats are red meat and you
can indeed feed them to your dog.
Chris O

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9c. Re: Rats for dogs? was Does this sound okay for a feeding plan?
Posted by: "Lisa Blair" lkblair@yahoo.com lkblair
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:52 pm ((PST))

Thanks, Chris. The original question pertained to feeding cats, so that's why I asked specifically regarding dogs. Since I haven't researched much about feeding raw to cats, I am unsure about how much is the same and how much is different.

So thanks to you and Casey!

Lisa
************************************************************************

But Lisa--you've GOT the say so of an expert! I would trust my dogs

with Casey in an instant. She sometimes makes with the jokes, but

she's not kidding in her response to you: rats are red meat and you

can indeed feed them to your dog.

Chris O

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10. Doh. i read the archives!
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:59 pm ((PST))

Forgive my hasty email - immediately after hitting send on that one, i
started reading thru the archives for this group and found a super helpful email
from Giselle to Millie -

just wanted to say sorry for the desperate plea - and thanks, to Giselle for
that very lengthy and help filled email to that other person. i will go to
bed tonight with a plan for tomorrow.

.heather.

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11. Re: Want to start RAW feeding with Papillonþ
Posted by: "Carrie Kelly" winencandy@yahoo.ca winencandy
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:53 pm ((PST))

Annie

I have a 6 month old Papillon puppy. I started her on raw at 7.5 weeks. Lily's still on raw and doing great. I had never fed raw before, and I was scared. I read and read posts for a month before I got her. I posted a few times like you. How could this tiny little thing possiblly eat a chicken quarter? It was bigger than she was. I started with a chicken breast. She didn't know what to do with it. I cut strips into it, still no go. Finally I cut it up into tiny pieces - bones too - and fed it to her. She ate it. About 2 oz (a shot glass) worth of meat. 3 or 4 times a day. It took about a week for her stools to look "normal". I gradually tried putting a 1/3 of a chicken breast with slashes cut int it in front of her, and she ate part of it. I found that anything larger would overwhelm her. I give her larger pieces now, but she still can't eat a whole chicken breast or drumstick (she doesn't eat the center part of the bone), but she's getting better.
After a couple of weeks I started to introduce different meats . Lily's had chicken, pork, beef, lamb, venison, moose, heart (chicken & beef) liver (chicken, pork, beef) kidney, and a cornish hen for thanksgiving. (I had to cut that into pieces for her) She's now eating about 2 times a day. Once, when she was eating a chicken breast, my husband thought she was choking, but she just hacked it up and continued. Because of this though, if I'm not going to be around at mealtime, I will leave a "pre cut" meal for my husband or my daughter to feed her. They are not comfortable with the bones. I have to make sure that I don't do this too often or she'll decide that every meal should be prepared for her this way!

Everyone comments on how beautiful and soft she is.

If you have any more questions or concerns, feel free to email me privately.
I hope this helps.

Carrie

WinenCandy

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Feed Pets Raw Food

Friday, November 23, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12308

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