Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12299

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Day 5 of Raw Feeding: Calcium concerns.
From: n_knezevich
1b. Re: Day 5 of Raw Feeding: Calcium concerns.
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: Day 5 of Raw Feeding: Calcium concerns.
From: n_knezevich

2a. Re: question about marrow bones
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2b. Re: question about marrow bones
From: spricketysprock
2c. Re: question about marrow bones
From: marlena_adema

3a. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: Dawn Ruhl

4a. Re: Rawfeeding and UTI
From: Casey Post

5a. Re: Trichinosis
From: miensasis
5b. Re: Trichinosis
From: Jolene Nelson
5c. Re: Trichinosis
From: Jolene Nelson
5d. Re: Trichinosis
From: brutus_buckley
5e. Re: Trichinosis
From: Felicia Kost
5f. Re: Trichinosis
From: MORGAN LEWIS
5g. Re: Trichinosis
From: Jolene Nelson

6a. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
From: debiand5dogues

7a. Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
From: miensasis
7b. Re: Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
From: Sandee Lee
7c. Re: Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
From: Suzanne J
7d. Re: Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
From: costrowski75

8. Deer carcases
From: Pug Lady

9a. Re: Enough Variety?
From: mrbob02140

10. HELP!!
From: Doguefan@aol.com

11. Must Read
From: logbreath2000

12a. Re: excessive shedding
From: h h

Messages
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1a. Day 5 of Raw Feeding: Calcium concerns.
Posted by: "n_knezevich" n_knezevich@yahoo.com n_knezevich
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:47 pm ((PST))

++++Mod note: please sign all messages +++++++++++++

Just wanted to get some reassurance.

Got my standard Doodle 10 days ago and started feeding her raw 5 days
ago. She is now 12 weeks old, 16 lbs. I estimate her adult weight
should be around 50 lbs but I can see she will be very tall wouldn't
be surprised if she'll be about 24"+, using Mom as a gauge--should be
tall and lean.

I have only been giving her chicken (worried about introducing too
much variety at once--won't be so worried now after some of the
things I've just read on the group)but want some assurance on
quantity, for nutrition and calcium. Started giving her back and
neck, but currently am giving her a thigh, 3 times a day. That's 3
thigh bones, total weight about a pound or just over. Do you think
that's enough calories and will that be enough for her calcium
requirements? Should I give her more bone/bone supplement?

Note: vet thought she was a little too thin--can definitely feel/see
her ribs. Will weigh her again in a week to see how fast she is
gaining. She gained almost 2 pounds in the last week.

BTW, she's eating the bone like a pro. Gave her first whole thigh
today. Has had no problem chewing well and crunching the bone. After
a week of soft stool, then diarrhea (though very little of it when
she started on the raw) her stool has firmed up today.

Anything else I may be missing.

Thanks in advance.

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Day 5 of Raw Feeding: Calcium concerns.
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:58 pm ((PST))

She is getting *more* than enough bone. Overall the requirement is only
about 10% bone and you are probably closer to 25-30%. Time to add some
meat. Puppies generally can handle quite a bit of variety in the beginning.

You definitely do not need to add bone or supplement with calcium. That's
where you will get into bone growth problems. Stick with prey model...lots
and lots of meat, a little bone and organs, and she will grow nice and slow.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "n_knezevich" <n_knezevich@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (3)
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1c. Re: Day 5 of Raw Feeding: Calcium concerns.
Posted by: "n_knezevich" n_knezevich@yahoo.com n_knezevich
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:28 pm ((PST))

Thank you. I'll try and add another meat type tonight!

Nada (and Maya would thank you too, I'm sure!)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> She is getting *more* than enough bone. Overall the requirement is
only
> about 10% bone and you are probably closer to 25-30%. Time to add
some
> meat. Puppies generally can handle quite a bit of variety in the
beginning.
>
> You definitely do not need to add bone or supplement with calcium.
That's
> where you will get into bone growth problems. Stick with prey
model...lots
> and lots of meat, a little bone and organs, and she will grow nice
and slow.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: question about marrow bones
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:47 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/20/2007 2:04:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
marlena_adema@yahoo.ca writes:

Now, I don't know much about bones for dogs, but they look like
the big, weight bearing bones (same as rec bones?) only cut into 2
inch peices. I just want to confirm these are indeed okay to give?

Marlena,

those are beef femurs.. the very definition of wreck bones.. they can and
WILL break teeth.

beef femurs are called: soup bones, marrow bones, knuckle bones.. and
probably more that i'm not thinking of right off the top of my head. basically if
the description on the package says "bones" it's not wolf chow. it's more bone
than meat, these are the parts we try to stay away from.

you want meaty hunks of body parts, most of these parts are called roasts or
whole "something". Like whole pork legs, or pork picnic roast, or pork
shoulder butt roast. different terminology, but the same goes for beef, goat and
lamb also.

Catherine R.

**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
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Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: question about marrow bones
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:07 pm ((PST))

My dog loves marrow bones, but he doesn't try to eat the bone itself,
just enjoys licking out all the marrow. It's like an all natural Kong.

Jess & Toby

Messages in this topic (7)
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2c. Re: question about marrow bones
Posted by: "marlena_adema" marlena_adema@yahoo.ca marlena_adema
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:41 pm ((PST))

Thanks everyone for your input. Learning more every day!
Marlena

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "Dawn Ruhl" Dawnofthedanes@mac.com dawnofthedanes
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:47 pm ((PST))

Hey Suzanne,
I have a 6 yr old Dane here who has been raw fed since she was 6
months old. 2 of her siblings are
dead, and I don't know why.
I also have an 11 yr old Rescue Dane, that stayed with my friend in
Tn when I moved here to
GA last month. He has been raw fed for most of the 7 years we have
had him. The only time he
wasn't raw fed, was before we got him (he was killing calves and
eating them) and the 3 times we
adopted him out. He trashed the homes of the families. We thought it
was because he was attached
to my friend's husband. NOT! He's attached to the raw diet. LOL
They had a White Shepherd who lived to be almost 19 years of age...
and we were discussing him when
she said... "he was fed kibble his entire life" and I had to remind
her of all the times he broke out of the
yard to go and hunt, kill and eat rabbits, squirrels... etc. And that
the last 3 years he was totally raw fed
and he never lost that shine in his eyes, until he closed them for
the last time.
I would have to say from my experience that any raw feeding helps
their health. The hows and whys
play their part, too.... however, because of what I have seen health
wise in my dogs over the past 14 years
is why I will NEVER go back to dog food, and yes they are always more
healthy. JMHO

Dawn
~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~

How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@yahoo.com suzjoxx
Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:55 am (PST)

Just wondering what the long-term (positive) effects of raw feeding
are. I started my dogs at ages 7 and 5 years. I'm wondering if anyone
has an older dog they've been feeding since it was a pup, and what your
experience is, versus a dog that was fed kibble for several years
first. Are the always-raw fed dogs way more healthy?

Suzanne

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Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: Rawfeeding and UTI
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm ((PST))

> We have just started rawfeeding (approximately 9 weeks ago) and both
> our greyhounds got urinary tract infections.

This is very odd, to be sure.

>
> First Grace (8 yo)showed strange discharge and it turned out to be
> vulvitis for which she was given injectable antibiotic BUT her urine
> and stool still 'stink'.
>
> Then Dreamer (6 yo) also had penile discharge which was cultured and
> grew E.Coli and Staph and he is on a month of Baytril - urine
> extremely strong and stool stinky.

Well, his stool is going to be stinky on an antibioic...looser too. I'm not
sure how much stock I would put in a culture from the discharge unless they
managed to get their sample um...closer to the source, as it were. Not
contaminated by the environment. But hey, maybe they did for all I know.

Did they get blood work run?

>
> Is this just a coincidence?

It's a heck of a coincidence if it is. Nothing else going on in their
lives? No vaccines or yard treatments or fresh paint or anything that could
take a whack at both of their immune systems at the same time?

>
> On another note, we have also started keeping the RMBs (poultry) in
> open baggies in the fridge rather than freezing them (our freezer is
> pretty small). Both dogs want to help us get them out to weigh at
> mealtime - I am assuming because of the stench. So far no untoward
> reactions to not-so-fresh meat.
>
> Any thoughts out there?

Hey, if they're good with it and you're ok with your fridge smelling like
chicken that has seen better days, then it's all good. Might be easier just
to plop the chicken in a bowl or something else rigid and flat-bottomed to
prevent tip-over spills, which can be gross and no fun to clean up.

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:54 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "angelis20107" <angelis20107@...>
wrote:
>
> HI, I'm ...the dog's owner, Shelley.
> I am positive that she has not had any wild game here as there isn't
> really a lot here in Cayman! The other possibility is the rat
> issue. She is usually is not outside unsupervised, but I'm not
> going to positively swear she did not get a hold of a rat. However
> I have rarely seen rats in my yard.

Shelley...

First off, I want to say that I'm sorry about your sick girl! I hope
you get to the bottom of this and she gets the care she needs. I
just wanted to make a comment about supervision in the yard. I have
medium sized dogs who are relatively new to raw (just 2 months) and
when I think of something the size of some rats, I know they could
easily chew and swallow the critter in just a couple of minutes.
Even though you are in the yard with your girl, I think it would be
very easy for her to have at something that size and be done with it
before you even noticed. (Just think of the kind of trouble
our "supervised" puppies can get into!) I truly think that if, in
fact, trich is the culprit...this would be a much more plausible
explanation than the pigs' ears. Having said that .... the "how"
right now isn't nearly as important as confirming a diagnosis and
treating appropriately. I truly with you and your girl the best of
luck!

Nancy

Messages in this topic (22)
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5b. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "Jolene Nelson" imperial_bloodlines@yahoo.com imperial_bloodlines
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:07 pm ((PST))

Hi guys,

Thankfully Cayman is a rabies free territory so we don't vaccinate for rabies here. never have. Also we don't have lakes or ponds, just ocean!

saphiradane <saphiradane@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Jolene, just throwing this out there but I seen a dog once with
most of these symptoms and was treated as having a severe rabies vacc
reaction. Symptoms started suddenly about 2 weeks after the vacc.
and the dog was treated quickly by a homeopatic vet. Also I had a dog
with some of these symptoms, suffering from toxic alge. We were at a
lake 2 days before. I know the symptoms u describe are general but,
just trying to help! Good Luck Felicia

Jolene Nelson
I'm a proud Raw Bully owner!
Imperial Bulldoggs

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Messages in this topic (22)
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5c. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "Jolene Nelson" imperial_bloodlines@yahoo.com imperial_bloodlines
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:13 pm ((PST))

Thanks Renee,

We are trying to find a lab or hospital which can do the tests however as trich is not to common, neither is the test.

We don't have wild game here in Cayman....the wildest thing running around would be a chicken or iguana.

We're actually not trying to jump to conclusions; it was the vet who even mentioned trich but all we can do now is see if this one pans out. Believe me our fingers are crossed that it isn't trich.

Thanks for the concern and well wishes.

brutus_buckley <brutus_buckley@yahoo.com> wrote: Jolene,
If it were my dog, or my friend's dog, I would find a facility
*somewhere* that could provide the proper testing.

Being as this is not your dog, are you sure the dog was not fed wild
game of any kind? I sincerely hope that
this isn't trich, that it did not come from imported US pork and, most
of all, that the bullie recovers.

-Renee W.

Jolene Nelson
I'm a proud Raw Bully owner!
Imperial Bulldoggs

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Messages in this topic (22)
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5d. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:16 pm ((PST))

Just doing a quick read on the internet about trich, it says that blood
or muscle samples may be used to detect it, and/or sending out a stool
sample that contains any worms or egg cases. Please be sure to post if
you do get a test done; I would love to know the results. (I bet you
would too!) Again, good luck and I hope your bullie baby gets better
soon.

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (22)
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5e. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:34 pm ((PST))

Do u have ticks there or have u already ruled out tick borne disease. Just another idea, I know they can be very hard to diagnios and are easily overlooked! Felicia
.

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5f. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:53 pm ((PST))

Well all meats are required to be Certified for human consumption.Morgan

CAYMAN ISLANDS
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

CONDITIONS GOVERNING THE IMPORTATION OF MEAT AND MEAT PRODUCTS
INTO THE CAYMAN ISLANDS

The following are the conditions for entry of meat and meat products into the Cayman Islands.

1. The importer shall obtain and produce for the Customs Officer or Inspector at the point of entry into the Cayman Islands a Certificate of Wholesomeness from the Competent Government Authority of the country of origin of the meat and/or meat product declaring that:-

(i) the carcass or portion of the carcass thereof, whether fresh, frozen, chilled, pasteurised, cured or pickled, originated from animals slaughtered while in good health and free from contagious and infectious diseases;

(ii) the meat or meat product has been inspected and passed for food under the laws of the country of origin; and

(iii) was wholesome and unadulterated at the time of inspection.

2. Such carcasses may be imported from any of the countries listed in the Schedule to the Animals Regulations (Reg. 5., 1977, Specified Countries).

* Great Britain
* Northern Ireland
The Irish Republic
Jamaica
Canada
Australia
New Zealand
United States of America

Costa Rica )
Nicaragua ) Boneless meat only
Honduras )

* Meat and meat products from RUMINANTS (cattle, sheep, goats and deer) are prohibited from entry from Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

NB. In most countries the Competent Government Authority involved in the international export of meats and meat products is usually a Ministry/Bureau/Department/Division of Agriculture or Health within the central Government of the country.

In the United States of America the certificates are issued by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) and in Canada, by the Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.

Felicia Kost <saphiradane@yahoo.com> wrote: Do u have ticks there or have u already ruled out tick borne disease. Just another idea, I know they can be very hard to diagnios and are easily overlooked! Felicia
.

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Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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5g. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "Jolene Nelson" imperial_bloodlines@yahoo.com imperial_bloodlines
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:40 pm ((PST))

Yes we do have ticks here and they have tested for tick borne diseases and those came up negative.

And yes of course all food is inspected and regulated as I'm sure it is in the US before they put it out into the supermarkets BUT you still have recalls from time to time when something shows up with salmonella or e-coli or some such thing don't you?

Sometimes things slip through the cracks, that's just the way things are. And AGAIN I am not definitively saying it IS trich or that it was from the pig ears. I'd much rather it wasn't either of those things actually. Which is why we're still trying to determine the facts.

MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@yahoo.com> wrote: Well all meats are required to be Certified for human consumption.Morgan

Felicia Kost <saphiradane@yahoo.com> wrote: Do u have ticks there or have u already ruled out tick borne disease. Just another idea, I know they can be very hard to diagnios and are easily overlooked! Felicia
.

Jolene Nelson
I'm a proud Raw Bully owner!
Imperial Bulldoggs

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6a. Re: Tips on finicky eater?
Posted by: "debiand5dogues" dholloway26@yahoo.com debiand5dogues
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:07 pm ((PST))

THANKS!!!!

> >what is searing? ?
>
> Searing is ,If place skillet on high and,you see the smoke coming
out a little for high heat and you place meat on skillet and quickly
brown the outside the meat by rotating.
>
> Basically,trapping the flavor inside the meat with high heat
cooking and browning outside.
> 20secs is more than enough I think.
>
> For finiky eater,this quick searing or mixing meat with tripe or
egg,flavoring meat,ribborning the meat are some tricks you can read
on this list.
>
> My dog hates pork liver but if it were mixed with egg,she gubbles
down,no prob.
>
> Some dog eats things if it were frozen. It all depend on dogs.
>
> yassy
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your
homepage.
>
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>

Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:07 pm ((PST))

Well my wheatens are progressing nicely as I add variety to their
diet. Now that I've introduced several protein sources and a variety
of organs, they seem to be able to handle anything I give without the
digestive upset we experienced in the first couple of weeks. Yay!

I was, however, disappointed with their response to the whole rabbits I
scored at the Amish market. They didn't "love" them as I'd expected.
In fact, I ended up dragging the carcasses out of the fridge for
several days before they finally got around to finishing them. I
thoroughly expected them to enjoy those rabbits! Day after day they'd
look at me when I offered it with faces that said...."This???
AGAIN???" My husband wanted to cave, but I refused to give in and
finally they finished them. I rewarded them the next day with a nice
juicy hunk of red meat and their ears wiggled with joy as they gnawed
away...lol. Is this type of response to rabbits typical??? Unless you
tell me rabbits are super-nutritious, I'm not sure it is something I
would go out of my way to buy again!

Nancy

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:32 pm ((PST))

Nancy,

There seem to be many dogs who detest rabbit! They are just another protein
source...if your dogs don't like them, I wouldn't bother. :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "miensasis" <kpmnlm@patmedia.net>

Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@yahoo.com suzjoxx
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:41 pm ((PST))

That is funny. My little bichon thoroughly enjoyed the rabbit my cat
caught and killed the other day. Good kitty. Free food. I like that.
Suzanne
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
>
> Well my wheatens are progressing nicely as I

Messages in this topic (4)
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7d. Re: Feeding rabbits -- disappointing response!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:54 pm ((PST))

"miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
Is this type of response to rabbits typical??? Unless you
> tell me rabbits are super-nutritious, I'm not sure it is something I
> would go out of my way to buy again!
*****
I think it is a rabbit thing. My two cats, the border collie and one
golden quite like their bunny meals. The golden is perfectly happy
eating rabbit fur and all. The other golden likes his bunny sans fur
and I have to open the belly for him. My big Lab flat out refuses to
eat it. He carries it around, would be delighted to fetch it
indefinitely...but he won't eat it. Oh well.

I don't consider rabbit super-nutritious so I am content to feed rabbit
to those that appreciate it and not force the issue for those that do
not.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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8. Deer carcases
Posted by: "Pug Lady" showpugs@gmail.com mo_cowgirl_2000
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:42 pm ((PST))

A man that processes deer is giving me two deer (spine and ribs with
quite a bit of meat still attached) but g do not know how to feed
these big things! I have three pugs and a weim. Can i just give them
the entire thing in the back yard? Thanks in advance!
rebeca

--
Rebeca and The Pugs
www.DoolittleAcres.com

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9a. Re: Enough Variety?
Posted by: "mrbob02140" bob_roth@comcast.net mrbob02140
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:42 pm ((PST))

Thanks for the feedback... I will try to find other protein sources at
a reasonable price. Turkey for sure should be cheap now , so I will add
that. How do I know if he needs the fish oil?

Bob

Messages in this topic (4)
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10. HELP!!
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:44 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: ALL RESPONSES MUST BE PRIVATE. PLEASE, NO POSTING TO THE LIST.

Sorry this is a little off topic for this list, but I have a friend in a bit of a situation.? I fear he could be losing his bitch...does anyone know anything about peritonitis??? If you know anything, please e-mail me privately.

Thank you
Chelsea
________________________________________________________________________
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11. Must Read
Posted by: "logbreath2000" elisabethlasser@sbcglobal.net logbreath2000
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:34 pm ((PST))

I've been feeding my dog raw for 2 month now - it hasn't been 'plain sailing' all the way so
far.
We've had diarhea and throwing up, he has refused to eat certain meats ......
I've spend a great deal of money so far -the dog looks good on the raw diet, but he looked
good on kibble too- except he got every infection going, which was the reason I switched
to raw.....
BUT: he eats dirt and grass and other animal poop-which (poop) he hasn't done since he
was a puppy.
Now he has eye discharge - eye infection????
He is a young dog - coming up to two and a half years old.
Seems to me he's lacking in some nutrition - which?
I feed whatever he will eat: beef: grounf and ribs, lamb necks, ground turkey, turkey
wings, liver, kidney all in small amounts, raw eggs with shell
I even give him veggie mush, Salmon oil, Vitamin E, Probiotics, Enzymes

http://www.dogs-training.net/articles/dog-food/Dogs-Can-Look-Good-An-A-Bad-
Diet.html

Please reply
Elisabeth

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12a. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:35 pm ((PST))

And omega 3 rich fish are salmon,Jack Mackerral,Herring, sardine,Anchovi etc.

I do not think Tilapia is big on omega3. Good for variety maybe but not for omega purpose.

~~~~~~~~~~~
That's right, the omega3 rich fish are all (deep water?) ocean fish from cold waters, and tilapia is a freshwater cichlid (same family as angelfish and oscars) whose native habitat is a lake in Africa. Plus, the vast majority of tilapia is farmed, so even if it was a good omega3 fish, the pellets farmed fish are fed would lower the fatty acids just as it does in the other meats we feed out critters.

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

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Feed Pets Raw Food

Tuesday, November 20, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12299

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