Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12297

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
From: Andrea
1b. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
From: Elizabeth Hackley
1c. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
From: Eddie Scholten

2.1. New Member
From: lisakzuber
2.2. Re: New Member
From: Andrea

3a. Re: Excessive panting
From: shefy gupta

4a. Re: Bad meat??
From: rosey031801
4b. Re: Bad meat??
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Trichinosis
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: Trichinosis
From: brutus_buckley
5c. Re: Trichinosis
From: ginny wilken
5d. Trichinosis
From: MORGAN LEWIS

6a. Re: Venison question
From: costrowski75
6b. Re: Venison question
From: Suzanne J
6c. Re: Venison question
From: Suzanne J

7a. Re: Intro- new member
From: Celia George

8. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: Suzanne J

9. Rawfeeding and UTI
From: greytbizz

10. certain meats cause panting
From: Felicia Kost

11. ADMIN/VACCINES
From: costrowski75

12a. Enough Variety?
From: mrbob02140
12b. Re: Enough Variety?
From: Sonja

13. Digesting bone
From: Sonja

14. need a recipe for liver treat for training
From: kzyocy

Messages
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1a. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:24 am ((PST))

Here's what you do: donate the breeder supplied food to a shelter,
buy a chicken, start feeding. Seriously, you know that feeding raw
is best, it's just that you need to take that first step. You might
be terrified the first time you put down a chicken quarter, but I
promise that watching him eat what he is designed for and seeing the
satisfied look that only a raw fed pup can have will whisk away all
concerns. Besides, I've brought up two big puppies on raw and
neither of them went through the destructive teething phase that all
puppy owners dread.

Come on, you know you want everyone to ooh and ahh over how calm,
beautiful, odorless, and soft your puppy is.

Since vaccine discussion is way ot for this group, head to

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/jstsayno2vaccs/
or
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TruthAboutVaccines/

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Scholten <shirl-ed@...>
wrote:

> I've been reading this list and various other information for a few
weeks now. We've been planning to feed our Golden Retriever puppy
the raw way, but now we have him home from the breeder today (with
lots of puppy and dog food supplied), and it's suddenly a nervous
time to decide NOT to give him any of the 'processed' food we have
been given for him.

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
Posted by: "Elizabeth Hackley" twodobemom@yahoo.com twodobemom
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:43 am ((PST))

I would donate or dump the supplied food and go raw.
As to vaccinations, I say no! Read the archives for
lots of info. It's scary on all fronts but we've all
been there (some of us still nervous) but there's lots
of "veterans" on this list that are very willing and
able to help.

Elizabeth Hackley, Flicka, Gunther Guinness with Loki & Max (waiting at the bridge)

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Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:28 am ((PST))

Eddie Scholten <shirl-ed@...> wrote:
>
> We've been planning to feed our Golden Retriever puppy the raw way,
but now we have him home from the breeder today (with lots of puppy
and dog food supplied), and it's suddenly a nervous time to decide
NOT to give him any of the 'processed' food we have been given for
him.
*****
Oh, there is no doubt at all that starting RIGHT NOW is the best time
to start any puppy--and certainly a golden puppy--on a raw diet. Not
only will you have an easier time introducing new proteins, flavors,
textures, you'll also putting real food into him right away. From
the kid's perspective, there's no reason to delay the right stuff.

Please don't feed kibble. Goldens have a hard enough time of it
these days: Do whatever you can to support and sustain a healthy
lifestyle.

Whatever anxieties you have, we've had. Spill your guts, we can help.

> > Also, regarding vaccinations, I've read that raw fed dogs need
little if any vet care (accidents aside), and I'm also nervous about
NOT going down the vaccine route too.
*****
Vaccines are not on topic for the rawfeeding list. Please post your
concerns to RawChat, TruthAboutVaccines or Justsayno2vax.

Healthy raw fed dogs are likely to require less vet attention than
unhealthy ones--part of your job as a responsible pet owner is to
make and keep your animals healthy, to know when to call in the big
guns, and to determine which big guns are most appropriate.

There are diseases than are not likely to be addressed without the
ministrations of a qualified health care professional. That said,
there are other sources of qualified health care that are not
allopathic. Please use the RawChat list for support.

Welcome!
Chris O
(Two goldens, one Lab, one border collie, two cats)

Messages in this topic (5)
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1d. Re: First day nerves with GR puppy...
Posted by: "Eddie Scholten" shirl-ed@hotmail.com shirley11964
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:53 am ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES

Hello again and thanks for the replies and support.

We have just given Floris his first chicken thigh and he's going at it 'full steam ahead'! It's a wonderful sight to see a dog eating like a dog should eat.

In England (where I'm from) we have an old saying to describe a person who is strong, healthy and looking good:

'As Fit As A Butcher's Dog!'

In the old days, as we know, it was common practice that dogs were fed raw, and of course, the butcher's dog got the best and the most food.

Thanks again,

Shirley

(Shirley, Ed, Connor and puppy Floris).
In Holland, Europe.

Messages in this topic (5)
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2.1. New Member
Posted by: "lisakzuber" lisakzuber@yahoo.com lisakzuber
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:43 am ((PST))

I have a 6 year old Neo Mastiff named Louie. He recently started
losing weight. We moved about 4 months ago and I thought he was just
homesick. He is eating his dry food but it is not putting weight
back on him in fact he started looking REALLY thin about 2 weeks
ago. I am not sure how much dry food he is really eating as he keeps
dumping it over. I got him a new bowl when we moved and I think he
hates it. ANyways, I started getting him canned food to go on top of
the dry food and I was also putting 2 raw eggs on top in the evening
feed. I used to just keep a large bowl out and he ate whenever he
felt like it. Now I am feeding him 2x's a day. He looks a little
better more energy, coat is looking shiny again BUT he is still
really thin like I can see his rib bones. I am sure all of you are
cringing at what I am feeding him after everything I have been
reading. I had actually never heard of the RAW diet before. I bought
him a small game hen and am wondering if it is o.k. to give it to
him. I made him these meatballs that someone told me would put
weight back on him. It is raw ground beef(27% fat), peanut butter, &
cream cheese. It also called for wheat germ and oatmeal but after
everything I read on here I opted to leave those things out because
he has always had a sensitive stomach. He loved them though and
didn't seem to have any problem eating raw ground beef.
Also, what should I start him out on? Is the game hen o.k.?
Any raw meat known to help them gain weight? He is such a loyal dog
and I feel so bad that he is this thin. I feel like I have let him
down. Any help would be so wonderful.
Thanks. Lisa

Messages in this topic (154)
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2.2. Re: New Member
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:52 am ((PST))

Hi, Lisa, welcome to the group. For a mastiff I would feed larger
things than game hens, more along the lines of chickens or bigger. You
want to feed about 2% of his ideal weight every day. Start with just
one protein like chicken and after a week or two add in another one.
You shouldn't worry about putting weight on him right now, just get him
acclimated to a raw diet. He'll put the weight on himself with real
food. Ask if you have more questions.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "lisakzuber" <lisakzuber@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 6 year old Neo Mastiff named Louie. He recently started
> losing weight.

Messages in this topic (154)
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3a. Re: Excessive panting
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:44 am ((PST))

it might they are trying to cool off too..snwoy overheats easily with all his fur... i got one of those cool pad bed things you fill with water...i have to fill it up today...

best
shefy and snowy

Greta Hill <GretaHill@aol.com> wrote:
just wanted to know if I'm giving too much food or should switch
proteins or if this is all a part of her transitioning >>

Panting is something that is seen often in new to raw dogs, if you do a
search I'm sure find posts with more information. I have one dog that
panted for a while after she was switched, but eventually stopped.

Greta

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
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Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: Bad meat??
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:45 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES

What about the meat my sog buries in the dirt on a 90 degree day and
eats it three days later...?...
He never gets sick.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@> wrote:
> >
> > Well the deal is that I had some deer meat that was frozen, but
the
> > freezer malfunctioned and some of the meat defrosted just a
little
> not
> > all the way through, but it has a bad smell now. Would it be okay
to
> > still feed that to the dog??
> *****
> I expect so. I had a freezer go out on me this spring. Everything
was
> defrosted a LOT before I figured out what had happened. The
venison
> was still cold but entirely defrosted. I moved it to another
freezer
> and I am continuing to feed it. Mine smelled riper than it had
when I
> got it but it was never reprehensible and my dogs (and cats) are
doing
> fine on it.
>
> Your dog though, your venision, your choice.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (14)
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4b. Re: Bad meat??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:44 am ((PST))

"rosey031801" <rosey031801@...> wrote:

>
> What about the meat my sog buries in the dirt on a 90 degree day and
> eats it three days later...?...
> He never gets sick.
*****
What about it then? I guess it's not bad meat, hey? Disgusting for us
perhaps, but within the realm of reason for a dog.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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5a. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:06 am ((PST))

Jolene Nelson <imperial_bloodlines@...> wrote:
>> If you notice I did say IF several times and I am not trying to dump
blame anywhere. I WAS asking for HELP and not attitude. I was hoping
someone would be able to suggest something which we may not have tested
for which could give the same symptoms. I'm not eager for this to be
trich.
*****
What sort of help can you get from us? We've offered sympathy, common
sense, recommendations to secure a qualified diagnosis, cautions to not
go off the deep end. What else can we do? I'm quite certain the
reference resources we have access to are the same you can use.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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5b. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:57 am ((PST))

Jolene,
If it were my dog, or my friend's dog, I would find a facility
*somewhere* that could provide the proper testing. Perhaps a blood or
muscle sample could be sent out to a lab by your vet. Unfortunately,
even if the test confirms that it is trich, it would be difficult to
prove the source. FWIW, trich larvae is killed by freezing. This is
from wikipedia:
Freezing pork less than 6 inches thick for 20 days at 5 °F (−15 °C) or
three days at −4 °F (−20 °C) kills larval worms.
Pig ears would in fact be less than 6 inches thick but the temp and
duration of freezing would be unknown.

Being as this is not your dog, are you sure the dog was not fed wild
game of any kind? Honestly, in the same situation, I would probably
jump to the same conclusions you did, but the reality is that at this
point they are just that: assumptions. Please find a way to get the
proper testing done and report the results to us. I sincerely hope that
this isn't trich, that it did not come from imported US pork and, most
of all, that the bullie recovers.

-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (14)
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5c. Re: Trichinosis
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:54 am ((PST))

On Nov 20, 2007, at 5:30 AM, Casey Post wrote:

>
> Jolene, any idea if this dog was vaccinated for rabies in the last six
> months?
>
> Casey
>
>

My thoughts exactly, Casey! There is never a systemic reaction this
strong which does not have its roots in individual weakness,
developed or inherited. And this one just screams of iatrogenic
cause. It's never all that important to know the external cause of
reactions like this, as the weakness will remain no matter how the
perceived adversary is attacked. If the terrain is not improved,
something else will strike it down.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
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5d. Trichinosis
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:28 am ((PST))

tHER IS A SEROLOGY TEST FOR THIS, ANY GOOD HOSPITAL OR BIO LAB SHOULD BE ABLE TO DETERMINE IF IT IS IN FACT TRICHINELLA. MORGAN

Demonstration of Trichinella larvae in tissue obtained by muscle biopsy, or
Positive serologic test for Trichinella

ginny wilken <gwilken@alamedanet.net> wrote:
On Nov 20, 2007, at 5:30 AM, Casey Post wrote:

>
> Jolene, any idea if this dog was vaccinated for rabies in the last six
> months?
>
> Casey
>
>

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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6a. Re: Venison question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:42 am ((PST))

"Suzanne J" <suzjoxx@...> wrote:
>That night he had gas that
> stunk up the whole house. He needed to go outside a few times in the
> middle of the night, so I assume he had diarrhea. I could hear his
> digestive system churning all night.
>
> So do you think this was from a new meat being introduced, and eating
> at least a pound of it (he's 80 pounds), or because the meat might be
> bad?
*****
Venison is game, it stands to reason it would smell a little gamey.
One pound of food for an 80lb dog is not at all excessive; my guess is
the new meat pushed his digestive system harder than it knew how to go,
thus the loose stools and gas and stomach noises.

FWIW, I've read of wolves stuffing themselves silly, taking a break to
go off produce loose stools, then returning to eat more from the
carcass. I suspect the difference is not the animal but rather time on
the job. Practice makes perfect.

I doubt the meat was "bad" in the sense of inedible. Oh, and diarrhea
is a medical condition, typically a symptom of bacteria run amok. It's
characterized by uncontrolled, explosive, watery stools. Loose stools
are generally "just" an indication of too much too soon.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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6b. Re: Venison question
Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@yahoo.com suzjoxx
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:55 am ((PST))

Ha! Nice try on getting my carcasses, Andrea! I did have three
carcasses but gave one away to another local Michigan raw feeder.
Can only fit so much in my freezer.

Can't get carcasses from meat processors due to Michigan laws, so I
rely on local deer hunters.

Anyway, thanks for the information that the smell was because of new
meat. I just can't believe a smell like that could come out of my
sweet old lab. Man! He did fine with sheeps' heads a couple weeks
ago, so I didn't think the venison would be a big deal.

On a different topic, I belong to a list of bichon frise owners.
They are always griping about allergies and other really awful health
problems with their bichons. Two times I've gently brought up the
idea of raw feeding. DEAD SILENCE is what I get. No flames, no
inquiries about raw feeding, just dead silence. It's too funny.

Nothing cuter than a little white fluff of a bichon chomping on a
rabbit carcass. Happiest dog in the world.

Suzanne,
The Crazy Lady on the Bichon List
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> > So do you think this was from a new meat being

Messages in this topic (5)
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6c. Re: Venison question
Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@yahoo.com suzjoxx
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

Ah, yes, I see the distinction. My dog had loose stools, then,
definitely not diarrhea, judging from what I saw in the yard the next
day. And I didn't think one pound of meat was excessive, just
letting you know how much he ate of a new meat. That's about what I
feed him daily anyway.

He was quite helpful in maneuvering those rib cages for me. I'd hack
some ribs, he'd be pulling at it and moving it for me so I could get
to another section. This was my first carcass dismemberment. Sweet
old, Jakes helping his human dismember a carcass.

Suzanne
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>
> "Suzanne J" <suzjoxx@> wrote:
> >That night he had gas that
> > stunk up the whole house. He needed to go outside a few times in
the
> > middle of the night, so I assume he had diarrhea. I could hear
his

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. Re: Intro- new member
Posted by: "Celia George" celiageorge77@yahoo.com celiageorge77
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:49 am ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. YOU MUST REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES!

Hi Tracy,
Thanks for your reply. Seamus is almost 6 months. He
is still teething. You make a good point about the
connection between bad breath and him still loosing
teeth. I currently feed him ground turkey or chicken
with a few ground up carrots and apples tossed in. I
have been hesitant to feed bones. I am scared that
Seamus could choke. I know this is a common
misconception that I am working on! I will take your
advice and try some turkey legs. Thanks again!
Celia

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8. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@yahoo.com suzjoxx
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:55 am ((PST))

Just wondering what the long-term (positive) effects of raw feeding
are. I started my dogs at ages 7 and 5 years. I'm wondering if anyone
has an older dog they've been feeding since it was a pup, and what your
experience is, versus a dog that was fed kibble for several years
first. Are the always-raw fed dogs way more healthy?

Suzanne

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9. Rawfeeding and UTI
Posted by: "greytbizz" greytbizz@yahoo.com greytbizz
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:56 am ((PST))

We have just started rawfeeding (approximately 9 weeks ago) and both
our greyhounds got urinary tract infections.

First Grace (8 yo)showed strange discharge and it turned out to be
vulvitis for which she was given injectable antibiotic BUT her urine
and stool still 'stink'.

Then Dreamer (6 yo) also had penile discharge which was cultured and
grew E.Coli and Staph and he is on a month of Baytril - urine
extremely strong and stool stinky.

Is this just a coincidence?

On another note, we have also started keeping the RMBs (poultry) in
open baggies in the fridge rather than freezing them (our freezer is
pretty small). Both dogs want to help us get them out to weigh at
mealtime - I am assuming because of the stench. So far no untoward
reactions to not-so-fresh meat.

Any thoughts out there?

Melanie & Marjo

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10. certain meats cause panting
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:57 am ((PST))

I was wondering if ceratin foods, such as pork would make a dog hot and panting. My dogs have been raw fed for almost a year now. Every time I feed a pork shoulder the dogs pant all night long. It starts about 4 hours after they eat, which is often when I am trying to sleep. My dane pants so hard she wakes me up and I find her standing in her crate panting heavily and looking uncomfortable. I let her out to drink which she does excessivley and then to pee. She still comes in and pants. This seems to be the worst late at night or early mornin, and always after pork. I have tried feeding her early in the evening so she has plenty of time to rehydrate that helps, but not enough to let me sleep! I have tried rinsing the pork to wash off any excess salt. She sometimes pants after turkry as well but not nearly as bad. Don't think its a matter of temp. because I don't even have heat in the bedroom where we sleep and it 40-20 degrees outside. Is there anything I can do to stop this
other then not feed pork? It is a main source of variety and cheap. I have tried too buy pork without added salt or solutions. Is this some type of reaction? The heeler does this as well but he doesn't pant as hard or make nearly the noise. Any suggestions? This panting makes it realy hard to sleep and we all know where that leads! Sorry for the length. Thanks Felicia

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11. ADMIN/VACCINES
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:05 am ((PST))

A reminder people--newcomers, veterans, recidivists alike--vaccines are
distinctly OFF TOPIC for the rawfeeding list and any such posts that
slip by moderators are not an indication that the decree has changed.

Vaccines may be discussed on RawChat, DogHealth, TruthAboutVaccines,
JustSayNo, other alternative health groups and other diet groups. Not
here though.

If you have questions please do not hesitate to ask them offlist.
Thanks.
Chris O
Mod Team

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12a. Enough Variety?
Posted by: "mrbob02140" bob_roth@comcast.net mrbob02140
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:42 am ((PST))

First I'd like to thank everyone for all the info I've gotten from
reading other postings. I've been feeding raw since March and my dog is
doing great and loving it. My only concern is if he is getting enough
variety. His diet consists mainly of chicken hind quarters, a chicken
breast with bone in once a week, beef once a week and rabbit once every
week or two with a few ounces of beef liver just about every day. He
loves the beef liver but hates chicken liver. Go figure. He won't eat
chicken giblets unless they are partially cooked. I have also tried
trout which he wouldn't touch - too bad, because my brother lives on a
trout pond and I could get all I want for free. Should I add canned
salmon?

Is that enough variey? I give no suppliments though I am thinking of
adding some fish oil.

Thanks for any feeedback.

Bob

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12b. Re: Enough Variety?
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:28 am ((PST))

>>I have also tried trout which he wouldn't touch - too bad, because my brother lives on a
>>trout pond and I could get all I want for free.

I wound up with 10 pounds of cod that my dogs wouldn't touch. I put salmon oil on the fillets, and they gobbled it up. Might be worth a try if you're considering adding fish oil, anyway.

Sonja

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13. Digesting bone
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:42 am ((PST))

Do different bones from different animals digest differently? Both of my labs digest duck, turkey, and chicken bones fairly well. Last night I gave both of them a pork shoulder bone with some meat on it. My older lab devoured it, the puppy cleaned off the meat and chewed a little bit of the bone off. I threw the remaining bone away when it was clear she was done with it.

At 2am this morning the puppy vomited the bone pieces up. They were small and should have been easily digestable, but since she hasn't had pork bone before could it be her stomach isn't used to it yet? She's been handling pork meat just fine, so the only thing different is the bone.

Also, on more than one occasion I've seen bones pass through the dogs that physically shouldn't have been able to wind their way down the digestive tract (duck leg bone....the older lab gulped it before could get to her). If bone doesn't get digested by the stomach at all, is it an indication that I'm feeding too much bone? Or could something else be wrong with my dog? She seems to digest duck backs just fine, it's all the other bones that seem to not get processed 100%. Is this normal?

Sonja

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14. need a recipe for liver treat for training
Posted by: "kzyocy" kzy01@earthlink.net kzyocy
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:28 am ((PST))

what kind of liver treat recipe can I make or give my 12 week old pup,
Hercules, for training? I would appreciate any recipes! thanks,
Kristina

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Feed Pets Raw Food

Tuesday, November 20, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12297

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