[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12287

There are 18 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Gorge and fast
From: John
1.2. Re: Gorge and fast
From: Denise Strother
1.3. Re: Gorge and fast
From: costrowski75
1.4. Re: Gorge and fast
From: katkellm

2.1. Re: Chicken Backs
From: windmilldairy
2.2. Re: Chicken Backs
From: Mallory Kwiatkowski
2.3. Re: Chicken Backs
From: carnesbill

3a. newfy puppy and calcium and meat/bone ratio of neckbones
From: ben
3b. Re: newfy puppy and calcium and meat/bone ratio of neckbones
From: carnesbill
3c. Re: newfy puppy and calcium and meat/bone ratio of neckbones
From: ben

4a. Re: Small bones in rectum
From: junmollmom
4b. Re: Small bones in rectum
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: Small bones in rectum
From: T Smith
4d. Re: Small bones in rectum
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: Is the raw honeymoon over??? LOL
From: linoleum5017

6a. Re: Is This the "Right" Chicken?
From: delcaste

7a. pigs heads
From: dody liberato
7b. Re: pigs heads
From: carnesbill

Messages
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1.1. Gorge and fast
Posted by: "John" jcdambrosio@yahoo.com man_in_the_moon_guy
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:26 pm ((PST))

Hi Everyone,

I've read that it could be best to gorge and fast a dog, so instead of
the usual 2-3% of desired body weight in food, go with 4-6% one day,
and then fast the next. Sounds like a great idea, but whenever my
girl, an American Bulldog, has more than 2 turkey necks in one sitting
(or a large back, etc), she has the absolute worst gas. She weighs 61
pounds but could probably go up to 72 or so. Occasionally this will
also be followed up with some gagging during the night and a nice pile
of vomit in the middle of the night, and having to let her out for
grass eating. This is almost always the case if she eats a back that
is too big, but 3 necks will do that to her 60-70% of the time as
well. It's the same if I feed her chicken, so I don't think it's a
turkey allergy or anything. The pieces are big enough where I don't
think she's wolfing (pun intended) them down without tearing them up,
plus they are always frozen solid so she has to really work on them.

Any suggestions? Do I need to switch to another meat altogether? If
so, what is recommended and affordable?

Thanks!

John and Bella

Messages in this topic (43)
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1.2. Re: Gorge and fast
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:29 pm ((PST))

Hi John,
I have foster dogs, my dog, and do in home daycare and boarding, so I
feed quite a few dogs on any given day. Right now, I have 3
Chihuahuas, an APBT, a wire-haired mixed breed momma dog and her 2 9wk
old pups and a lab at my house. Of those dogs the two female
Chihuahuas are the only two that eat gorge and fast. They are both
older, 6 & 9, and one is spayed. The other dogs are either self-
regulators or they had issues with eating two or three days worth of
food at a time. If it doesn't work for her, there is no benefit to
doing it. I don't think anyone on this list thinks of gorge and fast
as a "better" way to feed than daily feeding. It is just another way
to feed raw. I try different things with each dog and we stick with
what works for that dog. One of the great things about raw is it's
adaptability to each individual dog and their owner. It's not a cookie
cutter kinda thing. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jcdambrosio@...> wrote:
I've read that it could be best to gorge and fast a dog, so instead of
the usual 2-3% of desired body weight in food, go with 4-6% one day,
and then fast the next.

Messages in this topic (43)
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1.3. Re: Gorge and fast
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:33 pm ((PST))

"John" <jcdambrosio@...> wrote:
>
> I've read that it could be best to gorge and fast a dog, so instead
of
> the usual 2-3% of desired body weight in food, go with 4-6% one day,
> and then fast the next.
*****
Yup, it could indeed be best. It's certainly a natural way to
provide fully engaging meals. And certainly the dog's physiology is
built to process food exactly in that manner. But if the human can't
get behind it, or if the dog is too new to raw food, or if the dog
has digestive issues than are well beyond the realm of "just starting
out", then "gorge and fast" may not be practical. I suggest it might
well be a goal for a rawfeeder, but it ain't a requirement.

whenever my
> girl, an American Bulldog, has more than 2 turkey necks in one
sitting
> (or a large back, etc), she has the absolute worst gas.
*****
More than two turkey necks is not necessarily how "gorge" is defined;
and given the amount of bone in more than two turkey necks it's not
surprising that such a meal would produce gas. If your girls's just
started eating raw food (or has no little or no experience with big
meals), there's even more reason for her to respond with digestive
distress. Personally, I would not use mega turkey necks meals as a
measure of your dog's ability (current or potential) to eat large
meals.

Occasionally this will
> also be followed up with some gagging during the night and a nice
pile
> of vomit in the middle of the night, and having to let her out for
> grass eating. This is almost always the case if she eats a back
that
> is too big, but 3 necks will do that to her 60-70% of the time
*****
I think her response is more a reaction to too much bone than it is a
rejection of Big Food. There's little need to feed three turkey
necks in one meal and what you are seeing I believe is a pretty
normal response to that sort of excess. Probably you shouldn't do
that again.

It's the same if I feed her chicken, so I don't think it's a
> turkey allergy or anything. The pieces are big enough where I don't
> think she's wolfing (pun intended) them down without tearing them
up,
> plus they are always frozen solid so she has to really work on them.
*****
The chicken you feed as Big Food should be a whole bird, not several
parts, frozen or not. Big Food is not just for the purpose of
feeding lots of pieces. Big Food's primary job (at least imo) is to
make the meal engrossing, engaging; one that offers a full body
workout. Big Food removes the need for feeding frozen meals.

So you should be thinking whole chicken instead of parts; whole or
half turkeys instead of necks; a whole fish instead of a fillet; a
whole rabbit instead of a jumble of parts; a leg of lamb rather than
a neck; a pork shoulder roast instead of a pork neck bone.

I don't know how long you've been feeding raw, but my guess is not
long. And it also sounds like you've not had much experience with
whole anythings. I think for now you should not be considering gorge
and fast. There's no rush. Take time to learn to feed meals of
varying sizes; take the time to feed beyond turkey necks and backs.
You may find neither of you can be comfortable with Big Food/small
food variations, but with more OJT you'll have a better basis on
which to evaluate your options.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (43)
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1.4. Re: Gorge and fast
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:54 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jcdambrosio@...> wrote:
>Sounds like a great idea, but whenever my
> girl, an American Bulldog, has more than 2 turkey necks in one sittif
> (or a large back, etc), she has the absolute worst gas... followed
up with some gagging during the night and a nice pile
> of vomit in the middle of the night, and having to let her out for
> grass eating.

Hi John,
I think that maybe the problem is the cut of meats that you are
offering for a big meal and not the meats themselves . Backs and
necks tend to be bony pieces, and even though we are talking about
balance over time not every meal, there is a possibility that backs
and necks are just too much bone at one time for your dog. When i
think of big meals, i think more about a big size with lots of meat,
not just more food. So, i would say you might want to try a hunk of
pork roast or add a hunk of boneless chicken to tag along with the
chicken back. Instead of multiple necks think a bigger cut of turkey.
Another thing to consider, which i'm sorry i don't remember, is how
long you have been raw feeding. I think that some new to big meal
dogs have an adjustment period to processing more food in the same
lines that a new to raw dog might have when they start raw food
initially. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (43)
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2.1. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "windmilldairy" drwindmill@gmail.com windmilldairy
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:03 pm ((PST))

Here is my situation, I have an unlimited supply of deer and cows. It just seems like there
isn't enough bone that the dogs will/can eat. That is why I was wondering about the chicken
backs just supplement them for the bone they need their diets.

Pat

Messages in this topic (56)
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2.2. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "Mallory Kwiatkowski" m_k_jesusfreak3@yahoo.com m_k_jesusfreak3
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:55 pm ((PST))

can i have some of your unlimited supple?????:)
mallory


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Messages in this topic (56)
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2.3. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:55 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "windmilldairy" <drwindmill@...>
wrote:
>
> That is why I was wondering about the chicken
> backs just supplement them for the bone they need their diets.

Sure, feed them, no problem. I feed them all the time.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (56)
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3a. newfy puppy and calcium and meat/bone ratio of neckbones
Posted by: "ben" ben1721@yahoo.com ben1721
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:11 pm ((PST))

Hi everyone! My 9 week old Newfy pup has been doing a great job with
the chicken breast and leg quarters we've been giving him this week.
The thing that is concerning me is that I've read that giant breed
puppies can develop skeletal abnormalities from having too much
calcium in their diet. Should I try to reduce the amount of bone he
eats? On the USDA site it says that chicken legs (is this the same as
a leg quarter?) are 27% bone. I know we won't be feeding him mostly
chicken leg quarters forever, but should I be adding in more boneless
chicken now (even though he's only 3 days into eating raw)? Is this
something that will also balance out over time? or does the blood
calcium level need to be maintained more consistently? Am I being
overly concerned? I'm just worried because he's going to be growing
rapidly over the next 1-2 years and I want to do what I can to prevent
orthopedic problems.

I'm also looking into other meaty bones to introduce after we're sure
he's done adjusting to the chicken. Are beef and pork neck bones meaty
enough for a meal and are the bones edible for a puppy?

OK, that's probably enough questions for one day! Thanks for your help!

Rachel, Ben, & Moose

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: newfy puppy and calcium and meat/bone ratio of neckbones
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:56 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ben" <ben1721@...> wrote:
>
> The thing that is concerning me is that I've read that giant breed
> puppies can develop skeletal abnormalities from having too much
> calcium in their diet.

I got my Thor(now 3yo Dane) when he was 12 weeks old. I fed him
chicken backs only the first week he was here. I added chicken
quarters the next week and turkey necks the next. Then I added some
meaty meats. I go to all this to explain that I paid no attention
to how much bone he was getting and he had no problems. I think if
you watch overall volume of what he is fed he will be ok. You don't
want to give him too much nutrition to grow too fast.

> Should I try to reduce the amount of bone he eats?

I would watch the total amount of food fed.

> On the USDA site it says that chicken legs (is this the same as
> a leg quarter?) are 27% bone.

No, chicken leg quarters are leg, thigh, and part of the back all
still attached together in one piece. Quarters are 35% bone.

> I know we won't be feeding him mostly
> chicken leg quarters forever, but should I be adding in
> more boneless chicken now (even though he's only 3 days
> into eating raw)?

I would wait a couple of weeks until you are sure he is adjusting to
real food first. Too little bone can cause digestive problems in
newly switched dogs.

> Is this something that will also balance out over time?

Don't worry about balance. Balance is a human measurement and means
little if anything at all. Feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a
variety of animals. Mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. Exact
percentages or ratios don't matter. Do you worry about percentages
in your diet? Why worry about them in your dog's diet?

> or does the blood
> calcium level need to be maintained more consistently?

The dog does that automatically.

> Am I being overly concerned?

yep

> I'm just worried because he's going to be growing
> rapidly over the next 1-2 years and I want to do what I can
> to prevent orthopedic problems.

Don't feed him too much and you'll be ok. Keep him on the thin side.

> I'm also looking into other meaty bones to introduce after
> we're sure he's done adjusting to the chicken.

Don't think of them as meaty bones. Feed animal parts. Some will
have bone, some won't.

> Are beef and pork neck bones meaty
> enough for a meal and are the bones edible for a puppy?

I don't feed them. I prefer to feed pork and beef roasts with
little or no bone. I don't feed any beef bone at all. Sometimes I
feed pork bones.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: newfy puppy and calcium and meat/bone ratio of neckbones
Posted by: "ben" ben1721@yahoo.com ben1721
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:00 pm ((PST))

++++Mod note: pls sign your emails ++++++++++

Thanks, Bill! I had a feeling I was trying to make it more complicated
than it really is. :-)

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Small bones in rectum
Posted by: "junmollmom" junmollmom@yahoo.com junmollmom
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:54 pm ((PST))

I have one more question.
Is it a good idea to give Molly some tripe already? Or Shall I stick
with Chicken breat for a while?
Thanks for your help.

Keiko
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Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Small bones in rectum
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:00 pm ((PST))

"junmollmom" <junmollmom@...> wrote:
>
> I have one more question.
> Is it a good idea to give Molly some tripe already? Or Shall I stick
> with Chicken breat for a while?
*****
I don't see any reason to wait; but I recommend you add SOME tripe to
her chicken breast meals and build up gently to large doses of the
stuff. When you're both more comfortable again, you can start
experimenting with larger quantities.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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4c. Re: Small bones in rectum
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:19 pm ((PST))

Is tripe a requirement? I thought it was optional.
I am still a bit lost on what is considered organ (other than the 5%
liver). I thought heart was organ but read it wasn't...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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4d. Re: Small bones in rectum
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:00 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Is tripe a requirement?

No, I have never fed any in my entire 5 years of feeding raw. There
are many if not most that have never fed it.

> I thought heart was organ but read it wasn't...

Techinically, heart is an organ but it is made up almost entirely of
muscle meat and fat so as far as diet goes, it is meat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: Is the raw honeymoon over??? LOL
Posted by: "linoleum5017" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:59 pm ((PST))

Glad to hear you got to the bottom of it, Nancy.

Way to go!
Lynne

Riley was simply trying to hold out for
> something "better". We're just a few weeks into raw and started
with
> chicken-only meals. We had just started adding variety, but this
day
> we went back to the usual chicken and he was expecting something
> else. We pretty much let him know that what we give is what he
> gets...lol...so there hasn't been a repeat of this behavior from
> him. He now eats the chicken and everything else with gusto!
>
> Nancy
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Re: Is This the "Right" Chicken?
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:00 pm ((PST))

> I think it's odd that "minimally processed " can co-exist with added
> anything, but obviously there was a loophole somewhere.
> Chris O

Hi, Chris. I went to buy turkeys and all of them had minimally
processed on them. They didn't mention anything about a broth or
anything else. What do they mean by minimally processed? I have dogs
that are prone to itching and don't want to aggravate a condition they
have. Thanks for your help.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. pigs heads
Posted by: "dody liberato" halelehua001@yahoo.com halelehua001
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:06 am ((PST))

++++Mod note: pls sign your emails ++++++++++

aloha,
i am on my 2nd day of feeding raw to my 11yr old toy poodle & 3 yr old basenji female. 2 questions:
#1 i found frozen pigs head at the market today. would that be alright to feed, also, could they have squid and if so, how often?
#2 i have 1 basenji due to whelp dec. 3 and another due dec 25. should i wait to start them on raw or would it be ok to start right away?
just 1 more thing - my poodle won't eat the chicken wings i got to start them off on. he loves the ground turkeyburger w/small amt. raw pureed veggies i give them at night. would it be ok to give him raw lamb flap instead of the chicken wings?
halelehua

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Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: pigs heads
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:59 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, dody liberato <halelehua001@...>
wrote:
>
> #1 i found frozen pigs head at the market today. would that
> be alright to feed, also, could they have squid and if so,
> how often?

I would feed pigs head only if it had brains, eyeballs and tongue
still intact. I wouldn't feed it to newly switched dogs as it would
be too big a challenge that early in the feeding. Wait a few months
on the heads. I woudln't feed squid at all anytime.

> #2 i have 1 basenji due to whelp dec. 3 and another due
> dec 25. should i wait to start them on raw or would it be ok
> to start right away?

I've never bred dogs so I can't answer that.

> just 1 more thing - my poodle won't eat the chicken wings i got
> to start them off on. he loves the ground turkeyburger
> w/small amt. raw pureed veggies i give them at night. would it
> be ok to give him raw lamb flap instead of the chicken wings?

He needs to eat bones. Don't cater to his wishes. YOu are
resposible for deciding the menu, not the dog. If he doesn't eat
it, take it up until next meal and offer the same thing again. No
between meal snacks or treats. Repeat until he eats them. The
wings are too small for the other dog. I suggest feeding him
chicken quarters and backs for the first couple of weeks.

Forget the veggies. Dogs are carnivores. No need for plant
material in their diet at all. Meat, bones, and organs is all they
need. My dogs haven't had veggies in over 5 years.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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